Selected quad for the lemma: blood_n
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A41388
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Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good.
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Good, Thomas, 1609-1678.
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1674
(1674)
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Wing G1029; ESTC R23950
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83,883
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174
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Doctrine is so farr from it that the better sort of heathens would blush to own for brevity sake I shalâ— reâ—err you to the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme the Jesuites morralls set out bâ— a Sorbon Doctor Mr. Fowles his History of the treasons and rebellions of these holy men the two former of these bookes assure us that by the Doctrine of probability and a good intention the fowlest Sins are at most but venial Dub. The Jesuites are but one party in the Church of Rome many oâ— their tenents and practises disclaiâ—â—d by other of the papists and therefore the whole Church is not chargeable with their errors Firm. Untill that Church doth expresly Condemn thâ—m and Execute Ecclesiasticall Censurâ—s upon such of her members as do broach those damnable Doctrines doth make them recâ—nt or excommunicate them she is chargeable with them Dub. I am of your opinion and do firmly believe the pâ—esent Câ—urch of Rome to be neither Holy nâ—â— Câ—tholiâ—k but an unsound member of that Church but what say you to the first â—oundeâ—s and â—athers of their Church were not tâ—ey vâ—ry 〈◊〉 men Firm. â— Bâ—llarmine could prove what he takes for granâ—ed that tâ—e Fathers and Founders oâ—â—heir Chuâ—ch as it now stands were the hoâ—y Patriarchs Prophets and Apostles I should agree with him in that note but the truth is they have no more right to call them their Fathers and Founders then the Scribes and â—harisees had to caâ—l Abraham their Father from whose faith they had so miserably declined the Fathers of the present Church of Rome as 't is now were the corrupt Councells which were so many pack'd Juryes and the popes of whose Sanctity you may consult Platina who was a Papist By what I have said I hope you are satisfied that you had no justifyable reasons to adhere to the Church of Rome as 't is now so much declined from the Primitive let me know how and why you did forsake it Dub. I am fully satisfied that the reasons which drew me over to that Church were false and fallacious and am now as much confirmed that the reasons which made me leave her Communion are solid and demonstrative 1. Which were her monstrous unnecessary imposible Doctrine of transubstantiation Firm. How do you prove that to be unnecessary Dub. The change of the bread and wine into the very body and blood of Christ is unnecessary because certain it is and they of the Church of Rome acknowledge it that there never was any such change in the Sacraments of â—he old Testament neithâ—r is there any in the other six of the New as the Papists are pleased to multiply them now if all other Sacraments without any such miraculous change do attain their ends for which they were instituted why should it be required in the holy Eucharist why not rather in that of baptism why should not the baptismall water be changed into Christs very blood this being the Sacrament of Regeneration that that of Nutrition surely as great a power and vertue is required to regenerate and make a Christian as to nourish and strengthen him Again the faithful both before and under the law did eate and drink the body and blood of Christ in a Spiritual manner before he had either body or blood They did eat the same Spiritual Meat and dranke the same Spiritual Drinke 1. Cor. 10.3 what need is there then of a Transubstantiation If we seriously peruse the sixt Chapt of St. Iohns Gospel we may learne that the body of Christ is eaten and his blood dranke in a Spiritual manner that when the Disciples murmured at what our Saviour had delivered in the former verses to satisfye them he replyes that the words which he spake were spirit and life Ver. 63. and not to be understood according to their gross conception I know some the Church of Rome affirm that in â—hat Chapter our blessed Saviour speaks not of a Sacramentall eating of the body of Christ but certainly is his body may be eaten and his blood drank without any such monstrous change by every true beleiver not Receiving why may not he eat the body and drink the blood of Christ without any substantiall change of the Bread and Wine when he receives besides â— most if not all of the ancient fathers who held a necessity of giveing the Eucharist to infants urge the 53. verse of this Chapter for their opinion and practise except yee Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Bloud ye have no life in you Surely therefore they conceived that our Saviour meant by these words a Sacramentall eating how then dare any of the Clergy of the Church of Rome expound it otherwise seeing they take an oath never to expound Scripture but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers see the forma juramenti professionis fidei Conc. Triden Sess. 24. Cap. 4. de Reformatione Firm. I very much approve your reason against the necessity of transubstantiation Let me here from you why you tearme it monstrous and impossible Dub. 'T is therefore monstrous and impossible because it implyes Contradictions and grosse absurdities 1. that a body is not a body an accident is not an accident for if there should be such a change the sâ—me numericall body of our Saviour must be in Heaven and Earth nay in ten thousand places at the same time â—it must be extended and not extended it must have dimensions and no dimensions finite and not finite which cannot be no not by Gods omnipotent and absolute power how do the schoolmens Noddles abound with nicetyes quidditys perseities Chimaeras to solve such incompossibilities 2. This strange Metamorphosis doth make accidents to be no accidents it takes away the very being of them for accidâ—ntis esse â—st inâ—sse the being of an accident is in-being here must be Colour sapor odor quantity without a Subject which is all one as if we should say a man might be a man without a reasonable Soule In a word I would willingly learne what does become of Christs Body and Bloud after 't is received into the mouth or if any prophane mouse should swallow part of it or lick up a drop of the bloud and thence into the stomach whether it be retransubstantiated into bread and wine or else be converted by the concoctive and nutritive faculty into the body of the Communicant as other nourishment is and then t will necessarily follow that Christs Body is essentially united unto and made one with the Body of every Communicant which borders very nere upon Bâ—asphemy for by this means Iames Nailer will ere long quod animus mâ—minisse horret be Jesus Christ. 3. This Transubstantiation if any such thing were possible is wrought by a miracle but was ever any miracle done by Christ and his Apostles which was not discernable by the sences when â—e cured the blind the dumb the lame when he turned water into wine was not this manifest