to mock gain say and abhorr all religioÌ„ obtruded to the people without assurance of God his word hauing nether respect to antiquitie to multitude to authoritie nor estimatioÌ„ of them that mantean the same The Idoles of the Gentiles were more ancient then is the Idole in the masse There worshippers manteners and patrons were mo in multitude greater in authoritie and more excellent before the world then euer was any that bowed to that Idole Isa 4â— And yet feared not the Prophet Isayas to mock and iest them yea sharplie to rebuke them in these wordes They are dung backward with shame they shal be ashamed whosoeuer trusteth in a grauen ymage and that say to the molten ymage Isa 44. ye are our Gods All the makers of graueÌ„ ymages are vaine there pleasing thinges shall not proffet them For they themselues are witnesses to there Idoles that they nether se nor vnderstaÌ„d any thing and therefore they shal be ashamed who then sayeth he shall forge a God or a molten ymage that profiteth nothing behold all those that are of the fellowship thereof shal be confounded for the workmen them selues are men let them all be gathered together and stand vp yet they shall feare and be confouÌ„ded together And when he hath fully painted forth there vanitie he concludeth They haue not vnderstand for God hath shut vp there eyes Blindnes and induration is Gods iust punishmeÌ„t for Idolaters that they can not see and hartes that they can not vnderstand none considereth in his hart I haue brunt half of it euen in the fyre and haue baken bread also vpon the coalles thereof I haue rosted fleshe earen it and shall I make the residew thereof an abomination shall I bow to the stock of a tree c. Thus I say we see how that the Prophet doeth triumph against the Idolaters in mocking of there madnes and paintiÌ„g forth of there vanitie Who then can iustlie be offended against me or any other albeit by all meanes possible we let the blind world see the vanitie of that Idole considering that by it hath the glorie of God bene more obscured then euer it was by any Idole in the earth For to none was neuer absolutlie giuen Let the Papists consider the name nature power and honor of God but to that Idole allone If any think that the Scriptures of God giue vnto them patrocinie ether to beleue Christes naturall body to be there after the wordes of consecration as they cal them ether yet to beleue that Christ Iesus in his last Supper did offer vnto God his Father his body and blood vnder the formes of bread and wine he is miserablie deceaued for the Scripture maketh no mention of conuersion or transubstanciation of bread in Christes naturall bodie but witnesseth that bread remaneth bread yea eueÌ„ when the faithfull receaue the same 1. Cor 10 as the Apostle affirmeth in these wordes The bread that we break is it not the coÌ„munication of Christes bodie the cup of blissing which we blisse is it not the coÌ„munion of the blood of Christâ—â— we many are one bread and one body because we are all partakers of one bread And after he sayeth 1. Cor. 11. as ofâ— as ye shall eat of this bread and drink of this cup ye shew the Lordes death till he come Let therefore a man try himself and so let him eat of this bread and drink of this 〈◊〉 c. By these wordes we may clearlie vnderstand what iudgement the Apostle had of the substaÌ„ce of that Sacrament euen in the verie action of the same And as touching that foolish opinion that Christ Iesus did offer his body vnto God his Father vnder the formes of bread wine c. which the Papistes make the ground of there masse what suffrage that euer it hath by man of God nor of his word it hath none Ioh. 3. The Scripture dooth witnes that God the Father gaue his Sone vnto the world that the world might be saued by him and that Iesus Christ did offer him self ones vnto God Heb. 10 and 9. for the destructioÌ„ of sinne and for to take away the sinnes of many but that euer he did offer him self vnder the formes of bread and wine as the Papistes alledge the holy Goste doeth no where make mention And therefore the faithfull not onely may reiect it as the dreame and inuention of man but also are bouÌ„d to abhor detest it as a doctrine broght in by Satan to deceaue suche as delyte not in the veritie of God to whose 〈◊〉 and voice are the faithfull onely â—ouâ—â— M. Quintyne that great patron of the masse in this subsequent conference Maister Quintynes affirmatiue aâ—â—â—ieds for the probation of his affirmatiue Christ Iesus did offer sayeth he vnto God his Father in his last Supper his body and blood vnder the formes of bread and wine c. For the probation hereof I say he adduces the fact of Melchisedec that broght forth bread and wine Gen. 14. c. But how sone he is ashamed thereof and how vnable he is to proue that which he alledgeth to be moste easie to be prouen the diligent reader may esâ—y For perceauing him self unable euer to proue Luk the ressonig of the thrid day that ether Christe Iesus or yet Melchisedec did make any suche oblation as he the fond Papistes do imagine He riÌ„neth straight to his fortres shameles schift O sayeth M. Quintyne I haue hurt my own cause I was caried away with zeal c. It apperteaned not vnto me to proue any thing but to defend my artickles as they are written If M. O. and his collatâ—ralles will resolue me an dout then will I giue my iudgement whether he oght to proue or to defend onely My dout is this whether are M. Quintynes artickles necessarie to be beleued to SaluatioÌ„ or are they suche as without danger of damnation we may dout of them If we may dout of them and not offend God then assuredly I think that M. Quintyne may hold them for treuth til that the falshead of them be manifestly declared But if they be suche as we are bound to beleue as a treuth of God and an doctrine necessarie to Saluation then is M. Quintyne bound to shaw to vs that God hath prononced them and not man which if he be not able to do and that in plaine and expressed wordes then must we reiect them as deceauable Ioh. 10. fals accordiÌ„g as we be taucht by our maister Christ Iesus saying My sheip heare my voice but a stranger they will not heare If M. Q. will not be reputed an fals Prophet one that teacheth lies in the name of God and so expone him self to Gods here displeasure he may propone no doctrine to the Church of God the assurance whereof he bringeth not from the mouth of God If M. Q. were brawling in the scooles or bragging of
abbote wes soir offended at the first but whil the said Iohn wold in no wise be stayed he and his gaue audience which being ended the abbote said be my faith it is weil said And so after that he had spoken certane wordes he commanded one of his Scribes to read openly his protestation as followeth ☞ ✚ ☜ Heir followes the coppie of the ressoning quhilk wes betuix the commendator of Crosraguell and Iohn Kiâ—â—â— in Mayboile concerning the masse in the yeare of God 1562. M. Quintyne PErceauing the great perturbation controuersie and debeate quhilk is stirred vp laitlie in all Christen realmes for the cause of religion honorable auditor and al 's being remembred of the terrible seÌ„tence conteined in scriptures toward all negligent pastors in this dangerous tyme. I was constrayned in conscience notwithstanding my great inhabilitie as it pleased God to support my imperfectiones to giue instruction to all those coÌ„mitted to my cure within my Kirk of Kirkoswald how they shoulde be able to be enarmed against all wicked and decetfull preachers quhilk gaes about not knowing quherâ—fra they come nor by quhaâ— ordre And to the effect that our deirlie-beloued flock micht haue bene the more able to haue bene warre with all fals wicked vngodly doctrine Amang other godlie lessones conteined in my exhortation I inserit certane catholick artickles hauing their warrand of the scriptures of almighty God according to the doctrine of the halie catholicke Kirk and burdyned my conscience in the presence of God the saides artickles to be godlie necessarie and expedient to be beleued by all good christiane men Iohn Knox vpon sonday the aucht day of September came vnto the said Kirk of Kirkoswald being certefied that I might not be present and as I was enformed to make impugnatioÌ„ to my saides artickles wherethrough I wrote to him certifying that I wold affirm the saides artickles and in speciall the artickle concerning the masse against him or quhasoeuer pleases to make impugnation there to vpoÌ„ aucht dayes warning the place being in any hous of Mayboyle the nomber tuentie on either syde without any further conuocation Shortlie we being agreed by writing of the day hour and place quhilk was the 28. day of this instant September I am coÌ„men conforme to my writing to affirme the saides artickles as they are written beginning at the artickle concerning the masse Protesting alwayes that I come not to dispute any of my artickles as maters of faith religion disputable coÌ„sidering there is ordre taken alreadie by the Kirk of God as I wold say be the generall councelles deulie coÌ„uened quhilk represents the vniuersal Kirk of almighty God to whom it apperteines to take ordre quhensoeuer question rises for maters concerning faith and religion but according to the doctrine of S. Peter and al 's S. Paule to render my dett and duetie to all that inquires therfore and after that maner to abyde gentle and formall reasoning of all that pleases as may stand to the glorie of God and the instruction of the auditor And to the effect foresaid that we may come to formal ressoning as to ward the artickle coÌ„cerning the masse I wil ground me vpon the Scriptures of almightie God to be my warrand coÌ„forme to my first coÌ„firmation quhlik was gathered vpon the priesthead and oblation of Melchisedec and was presentet Èou in Februare and as Èit has gotteÌ„ no answer notwithstanding that it was of sober quantitie sextene or 20 lynes Wherfore please you to receaue this same confirmation yet as of before for to be the beginning of our formall reasoning concerning the artickle of the masse in maner as after followes The Psalmest al 's the Apostle S. Paule affirmes our Saluiour to be an priest for euer according to the ordure of Melchisedec quha made oblation and Sacrifice of bread and wine vnto God as the Scripture plainly teaches vs now will I reason on this maner Read all the Euangell wha pleases he sall find in no place of the Euangel quhere our Saluiour vses the priesthead of Melchisedec declaring him self to be an priest after the ordor of Melchisedec but in the latter Supper quhere he made oblation of his precious body blude vnder the forme of bread and wine prefigurate by the oblation of Melchisedec then are we compelled to affirme that our Sauiour made oblation of his bodie blude in the latter Supper or els he was not an priest according to the ordor of Melchisedec quhilk is expres against the Scripture Iohn Knox. Iohne Knox protested that he mght haue the coppie of this formar writting giuen in by my Lord in writ to answer therto more fullie at greater leaser which was deliuered vnto him Quintene And in lykemaner my Lorde protested that he might haue place to reply if he thoght good The answer of Iohn Knox to the Abbottes oration giuen in by the Abbote before the disputation in writ Iohn Knox. WHensoeuer it pleaseth God of his great mercy to shew the light and to blow the trompet of his true word vnto the blind vnthankful world after darknes and loÌ„g silence it hath the streÌ„gth to moue and walken not onelie the chosen but also the reprobate but in diuerse maner for the one it walkeneth from ignorance error supersticion vanitie and horrible corruption to walk before there God in knowledge veritie true seruing of his maiestie and in puritie of life But the other it walkeneth from there formar â—iueth and yet to there further coÌ„demnation For suche as in the time of darknes did liue as men without God at the sound of the trompet calling them to repentance addes and ioynes to there format corruption blasphemie against God and against his eternal veritie For perceauing that the light discouereth there turpitud and that the trompet wil not suffer them to slepe as that they did before without open reproche Isay 5. they shame not to call light darknes darknes light good euil and euil good And to bring that to pas to wit that the light shine no more doeth the whole baÌ„d of suche as oppone them selues to the veritie of God so earnestlie trauell that stugardes and effeminat men become actiue and strong Souldioures to the Deuil The exemples hereof are in Scriptures so coÌ„mon that they nead no long rehearsal For what was the estate of the fals Prophetes and Preastes in the dayes of Isayas Ieremie Ezechiel Micheas and the rest of the true Prophetes of God What care I say they which by ordinarie successioÌ„ oght to haue teached the people of God tooke ouer there charges the complaintes attestations of the true Prophetes vsed against them do witnes Isay 56. Read the place In the which they call them dum dogs blind watchemen suche as regarded nothing but ambition tyarous cheare and lustes of the flesh Ezeh 34 Pastors that fedd not the flock but fedd them selues Finally they terme them Iere. 6. men from the
may be reiected as it is affirmed And these thre admitted So forth I enter in disputation M. Quintyne Thair ar diuers heides quhair with I am offended willing that the purpose we come for may go shortlie to passe Thairfore presentlie I will omitt And as the occasion sall serue of the doctoures counsalles and ocht elles quhilkis ar not expresly contened in the Scriptures And this quicklie go to the purpose Iohn Knox Ye are not ignorant my Lorde that in euerie disputation the ground oght so to be laide that the mater disputable or the question either come vnder an perfite definicion or els vnder an sufficient discription and specially when the question is De woce simplici As is Missa Yf it please your Lordschip to defyne the masse or yet sufficientlie to discriue it I will take occasion of that which I think wrong And if not then must I explaine my minde what masse it is that I intend to impung and haue called idolatrie not the blissed institution of the Lorde Iesus which he hath coÌ„manded to be vsed in his kirk Let men iudge if this be not impugnation of the papistical messe to his gaincomiÌ„g but that which is cropen in into the kirk visible without all approbation of the worde of God And this masse I say hath a name a forme and action an opinion conceaued of it and an actor of the same And vnto the whole foure I say that neither the name the forme and action nor the opinion nor actor haue there assurance of Gods plaine worde M. Quintyne As to the diffinicion or description that I gaif the last Èeir I will abyde at it this Èeir for I am not cuÌ„min in vse of est non est And as to the masse that he wil impung or any mannes masse Èea and it war the paipes awin messe I will mantein nathing but Iesus Christes messe coÌ„forme to my artickle as it is writtin and diffinition contened in my buik quhilk he hes taine on hand to impung Iohn Knox. As I can conceaue my Lordes answer conteineth thre heades the first is a relation to his booke as conteaning the difinicion of the masse The second a declaration of his Lordschipes coÌ„stancie Let men iudge how fauorable the sone is vnto the Father And the third an affirmation that he wil affirme no masse but the masse of Iesus Christ yea not if it wer the popes owne masse Vnto the first I answer That I haue not red his Lordeschipes booke not excusing thereintill my own negligence and therefore it appeareth vnto me that rather his Lordship should cause the diffinition to be red out of his booke nor to burden me with the seaking of it As coÌ„cerning his lordshipes constancie I beseak the eternal God to make vs all constant in his eternal veritie for inconstancie in the treuth can not lack infamie and great danger But to me it appeareth that in no wyse it can hurt the fame nor conscience of the godlie to confesse them selues men who bothe may erre and also be occation that others erre And yet when that the fuller knowledge commeth vnto them by the spirit of God no maÌ„ oght to impute vnto them inconstancie albeit they retreat there formar error as in diuers heades did that learned Augustine But the thride head doeth moste delite me to wit that my lord hath affirmed that he will defend no masse but the masse of the Lorde Iesus Note my offer which if his lordship will performe as my good hope is then I dout not but we are on the werray point of an christiane aggrement For whatsoeuer his lordschip shall proue to me to be done by the Lorde Iesus that without all contradiction I shall embrace Prouiding that his lordship alledge nothing to be done by Iesus Christe which his owne institution witnesseth not to be done M. Quintyne I define the messe as concerning the substance and effect to be the sacrifice and oblation of the Lordes bodie and blude geuen and offered by him in the latter Supper And takis the Scripture to my warrand according to my artickle as it is written And for the first confirmation of the same groundes me vpon the sacrifice and oblation of Melchisedec To the second I thank Iohn Knox of his prase and prayer of my constancie and in lyk maner for christiane cheriteis saik prase God with all my hart for his induretnes and pertinacitie gif swa be that he be in error and will wish him that he be willed to refuse his pertinacitie as I sall do my coÌ„stancie gif I be in error To the thrid for auoiding of cauillation I mein that I will defend no messe as concerning the substance institution effect bot that messe onelie quhilk is institut be Iesus Christ Iohn Knox Omitting to further consideration the answer to the definition to the last two heades I shortlie answer that I praised no constancie but that which is in the treuth And as touching my owen indurednes wherewith my Lorde seameth to burden me I plainlie protest before God that if I knew my self in error in that cace or in any other that concerneth the doctrine of Saluation I should not be ashamed publictlie to confesse it But the last parte of my Lordes answer appeareth somparte to varie in my iudgement from his formar affirmation which I tooke to be that his lordship wold defend nothing in the masse which he was not able to proue to be the verray institution of Iesus Christe And therefore must I haue recourse vnto the formar diuision of the masse which is in name action opinion actor And humblie requireth of his lordship that he wold signifie vnto me if he wold be coÌ„tent to proue the name to be giuen by Iesus Chrste Note if this be to shoot an pistollet at the messe the whole action and ceremonies from beginning to the end to be the ordinance of almightie God The opinion which hath bene conceaued taught and written of it for to be aggreable with the Scripturs of God And finally if that the actor hath his assurance of God to do that which he there publictlie protesteth he doeth M. Quintyne As willing that the treuth cum to ane tryall I will not trifle bot schortlie geues for answer A shiftiÌ„g answer I wil begin at the best first quhilk is the substance and effect And as to the ceremonies actor and name sal defend them abuÌ„dantlie Godwilling conform to my artickle quhen I cum thairto Iohn Knox. The ceremonies vsed in the masse and the opinion conceaued of the same haue bene holden substanciall partes thereof Let the papests answer if this be trew or not into the conscience of a great multitude And therefore oght the coÌ„science of the weak and infirme first to be deliuered from that bondage For what my Lorde affirmeth of the masse to wit that it is a sacrifice this perchance may be also alledged to aparteane
to the right institution of Iesus Christe in some cace which ones wes woid bothe of those ceremonies and that damnable opinion M. Quintyne I am not cumin heir to mantein the opiniones of meÌ„ but to defend the institution of Iesus Christ conform to my artickle Iohn Knox. It appeareh to me yet againe This is a dowble cannoÌ„ against the messe that my Lorde is willing to defend no thing but the werray institutioÌ„ of Christ Iesus And I haue alreadie affirmed that neither the name of the masse the ceremonies vsed in the same the opinion conceaued of it neither yet that power which the actor vsurneth hath either the institution or assurance of Iesus Christe M. Quintyne I am willing to defend my diffinition concerning the messe as I haue diffined it and takes Goddes word to my warrand My lord fled the Barras for the first and as to the ceremonies actor and all the rest fall defend God willing to be aggreable with Goddes word all throuch abundantlie as tyme and place sal serue beginning first at the substance and effect Iohn Knox. I answer that albeit in my iudgement the conscience of man oght first to haue bene sett at libertie yet hoping that my Lorde wil be coÌ„tent according to his promes that the name ceremonies and the rest of the accidents of the masse suffer the tryal by the worde of God I am content shortlie to enter in the bodie of the mater And desireth the difinition to be resumed M. Quintyne Let my Lord remember his promes I promes before this honorable auditor to defend that all coÌ„tened in the action of the messe to be aggreable with Goddes word prouiding alwayes we gang to the substance The difinition being resumed Iohn Knox answered Your lordship is not ignorant that in euerie difinition there oght to be Genus which I take your lordship here maketh this term Sacrificium but because the term is generall and in the Scriptures of God is diuersly taken therefore it must be broght to a certane kinde For in the Scriptures there be sacrifices called EVCHARISTICA that is of thankes giuing The mortification of our bodies and the obedience that we giue to God in the same is also called Sacrifice Prayer inuocation of the name of God hath also the same name within the Scriptures Liberalitie toward the poore is also so termed But there is one Sacrifice which is greatest and moste of all called Propiciatorium which is that Sacrifice whereby satisfaction is made to the iustice of God being offended at the sinnes of man c. Now I desire of my Lord that he appoint vnto the masse whiche of these Sacrifices best pleaseth him M. Quintyne Quhat Èe mein be the Sacrifice Propiciatorium presentlie I will not dispute But I tak the sacrifice vpon the croâ—â— to be the onelie Sacrifice of redemption and the Sacrifice of the masse to be the Sacrifice of coÌ„memoration of Christs death and passion Iohn Knox. So farre as I can conceaue of my Lordes answer he maketh no Sacrifice Propiciatorie Heir are mo cannons theÌ„ one in the messe which is the chiefhead which I intend to impung For as for the coÌ„memoration of Christes death and passion that I grant and publictlie do confesse to be celebrat in the right vse of the Lordes Sâ—â—pper which I denie the messe to be M. Quintyne It is Èour deutie according to formall proceiding to impung my warrand If this be shifting or not let men iudge quhilk I haue chosen to defend my diffinition be and artickle euen as it is writtin Iohn Knox. Protesting that this mekle is win that the Sacrifice of the masse being denied by me to be a Sacrifice Propiciatorie for the sinnes of the quick and the dead Let men now iudge whitther the messe gat a wond or not according to the opinion thereof before conceaued hath no patron at this preseÌ„t I am content to procede M. Quintyne I protest that he hes win nothing of me as Èit and referres it to black and quhite contened in our writing Iohn Knox. I haue openlie denied the masse to be an Sacrifice Propiciatorie for the quick Note c. and the defence thereof is denied And therefore I referre me vnto the same iudges that my Lorde hath clamed M. Quintyne Èœe may deny quhat Èe pleis for all that Èe deny I tak not presentlie to impung bot quhair I began thair wil I end Shift on that is to defend the messe conforme to my artickle Iohn Knox. Seing that neither the name the action the opinion nor the actor of the masse can be defended for this present I wold glaidly knowe what I should impung M. Quintyne All aboue rehearsed can be defended and salbe defended Godwilling I did nothing but as my lord commaÌ„ded and quhair Èe are glaid to knaw quhat Èe sould impung apperanlie that sould be na newinges to Èow for I certifie Èow Èe sould impung my warraÌ„d alledged for defence of my diffinition and artickle Iohn Knox. If be your warrand Haue at your ground ye vnderstand the oblation made in bread and wine by Melchisedec I plainly deny that Melchisedec made any oblation or Sacrifice of bread and wine vnto God and desires the text to be iudge M. Quintyne It is Èour pairt to impung and myne to defend for I am the defender and salbe Godwilling Iohn Knox. Can I impung more plane then when I denie your ground M. Quintyne I say the denying of the ground is na proper impugnation Iohn Knox. Your lordships ground is that Melchisedec is the figure of Christe in that Let men iudge now if my lords ground for the messe be not shaken that he did offer vnto God bread and wine and therefore that it behoued Iesus Christe to offer in his latter supper his bodie and blood vnder the formes of bread and wine I answer to your ground yet againe that Melchisedec offered neither bread nor wine vnto God And therefore it that ye wold thereupon conclude hath no assurance of your grouÌ„d M. Quintyne Preue that Iohn Knox. Whether that the probatioÌ„ of a negatiue should be deuolued vpon me especially when I haue denied your chief ground I am content the learned iudge M. Quintyne Moued throuch feruor of the tryall of the treuth of Goddes worde I refuse logik captious cauillationis for the present not perchance for ignorance bot that we tyne not tyme Gather what is spoken to finnish and establis our godlie pretence for the ease and quietnes of the conscience of the noble men heir present Iohn Knox. I haue els protested that I abhor all cauillationes and yet againe declares vnto your lordship that in my iudgement it is the way moste succinct that your lordship proue your own grouÌ„d that is that Melchisedec offered vnto God bread and wine which I denie M. Quintyne I tak the text to be my warrand and ground Iohn Knox. The text being red
And according to the samin tuik me properlie to my warrand grounded vpone Goddes word vnto the quhilk warrand Iohn Knox as Èit hes maid na impungnation bot desyred me to sustene and defend the name the actor the ceremonies the opinion of men coÌ„ceaued of the messe and gif it wes ane Sacrifice Propiciatorie I beand willed that we schortlie sould go to the ground and effect and substance of the purpose quhairfore we come I stude be my artickle and warrand as they ar written not refusand to defend the heides aboue reheirsed as tyme and place sould serue And notwithstaÌ„ding that I was sufficientlie grounded vpon Gods worde quhilk I tuik to be my warrand Note that my Lorde confesses that he wes persewer that he hes hurt his own cause and tuik lykewise vpon me farr aboue my habilitie the place and personage of ane defender nottheles throuch occasion that serued as work will beir witnes I was coÌ„strained to tak vpon me the personage of ane persewer farre by my appetit Èea and the weill of my cause and al 's by the opinion of all sic as wald the weill of the samin moued on godlie zeill as God be iudge that the trueth sould cum to a tryal Sed sero sapiunt Poriges to the pleasure of God and satisfaction of the honorable auditor I beand cled with the personage of ane impungnar expres contrar to my mynd for sic causes as ar abone reheirsed I maid impuÌ„gnation not be manlie imaginationis bot be the manifest worde of God And that thre maner of wayes Let your freinds yet iudge first to tak away Iohn Knox conceaued opinion that Melchisedec brocht furth bread wine to refresche or gratifie Abraham and his werie company I called to remembrance how that the spulÈeis of nyne Kingis and of certain citeis to was recouered be Abraham quhairthrouch he and his company was sufficientlie refresched and had yneuch to be refresched on swa that they mistered not to be refreshed with breid and wine of Melchisedec Secondlie quhair Io. Knox maid question that they had not bread wine I returned againe to the text to werifie the samin Quhilk sayes and all thingis pertenand vnto meat Inferrand that in this phrase was contened bread and wine conforme to the phrase of the Scripture quhair mention is maid onelie of bread contenand all thingis necessar for maÌ„nis sustentacion he find and this not sufficient satisfaction Èœit Èeid I not to maÌ„nis imagination bot to the plaine text and grounded me vpon the wordes of the text sayand Melchisedec brocht furth bread and wine Inferrand in that it was spokeÌ„ in the thrid person singular How shal that be prouen it was against the ordoure of nature to think that ane maÌ„ sould bring furth especially he that was ane King and ane preist to tak that paines to bring furth bread and wine that micht gratifie lat be to refresch thre huÌ„dreth and auchtene men Seand that inuinsible persuations properlie gathered vpon the text But did nor does not so appeir to others could na wise bring Iohn Knox to confesse that thing quhilk appered vnto me conforme to the Scriptures of almichtie God and all gude resson he sould haue confessed Then concluded I with the Scriptures Nor yet will do to hurt a iust cause as I did begin as my conclusion wil beir witnes that he wald haue iustified his opinion conceiued of the Scripture coÌ„form to his awin sayingis be the expres word of God And of my liberalitie wil grant him Èit gif he hes any maner of apperance of the samin notwithstanding he said to me he wald not gif me ane hair of his heid gif I sould stand thir seuen Èeires Iohn Knox. Protesting first that I may answer in writ vnto the formar argument because as I perceiue it wes before conceiued in writ I enter in shortlie vnto the long discourse made by my Lorde not willing to answer euerie part thereof but onely so muche as may appear to infirme the iust cause And first where that my Lorde affirmeth that I haue made no impungnation vnto his lordships artickle concerning the masse I am content that not onelie this honorable audience but also the whole earth be iudge in that point For I haue plainly denied Note that ether the masse hath approbation of the plaine worde of God ether in name action opinion to witt written of the masse taucht of the masse and in the conscience of men conceiued of the masse finally that the actor therof for his vsurped power hath no greater assurance of Gods worde Which whole heades being denyed to be disputed at the present against my Lordrs artickle and ground I did thus reason that his lordeship wes not able to proue that Christ Iesus in his latter Supper did offer his bodie and blood vnto God his Father vnder the formes of bread and wine His lordeship taking for his proue the alledged Sacrifice of Melchisedec in bread and wine offered vnto God I did lykewise deny that Melchisedec did at that tyme to wit in the presence of Abraham offer ether bread or wine vnto God which hath bene these two dayes by-past in controuersie betuix his lordeship and me I haue alwayes denied that the holy Spirit in any notable or euident place of Scripture doeth affirme suche an sacrifice to haue bene made by Melchisedec vnto God whil the I did hear no place of Scripture adduced for the approbation thereof my Lorde demandand of me what then I thoght wes done with the bread wine I answered that albeit I wes not bound to giue my iudgement because that he wes bound to proue his affirmatiue as yet I say he is bouÌ„d and thereof I wil be content Considder what iudges I admit that his lordshipes moste fauorable freindes of best iudgemeÌ„t yea euen if his Lordeship please the Lordes of the Session be iudges in that point I answered I say that be coniecture the bread and wine were broght furth by Melchisedec to refreshe Abraham and his werie company Vpon which occasion his lordship how iustlie let all meÌ„ iudge did cleith him self againe Contrar the obiectioÌ„ made of impossibilitie that it was against nature that Melchisedec allone should briÌ„g forth bread c. without my procurement with the personage of ane impungnar And did adduce suche thinges as best pleased his lordship whereto I did answer as the whole conference will report and as I suppose sufficientlie to euerie thing obiected except that because my Lord did not touche the exposition alledgede by me vpon the wordes Melchisedec allone did bring forth bread and wine as my Lorde alledgeth I differed to bring in the conference of Scriptures to proue that it is an thing in Scripture verrie commone that the thing that is done at the coÌ„mand of any notable persone is attributed vnto him self althogh it be done be
seruandes or subiectes at his command which I do now shortlie It is said in Scripture that Noie did all that God coÌ„manded him and plaine it is that God coÌ„manded him to make the Arck Gen. 6.7 which wes iÌ„ building the full space of a hundreth yeares God further coÌ„manded him to furnish the Arck with all kynde of victualles which the text affirmeth that he did Now if we shal conclude that Noie allone cutted euerie tree Noie allone did hew euerie tree and so forth it appeareth to me that we shal conclude a great absurditie The same is euideÌ„t in Dauid of whome mention is made that he being Prophet and King 2 Sam. â— deuided to the whole people yea vnto the whole multitude of Israel yea bothe to men and women an portion of bread an portion of flesh and an portion of wine If we shall think that Dauid did this with his own hand we shall conclude in my appearance the formar absurditie The same is manifest by many other phrases yea and by our daylie maner of speaking And therefore yet as of before I think my Lordes exposition coact in that he will admit none to haue broght forth the bread and wine but Melchisedec allone But howsoeuer it be it moueth me nothing for vnto suche tyme as that my Lorde in plaine wordes pronounced by the holy Goste proue that Melchisedec did offer vnto God bread and wine he hath prouen nothing of that which he took on hand to proue And therefore I greatlie feare that whill that The best ground culd find no ground within the word of God which his lordeship calleth the best is so long in finding an sure ground within the Scripture that the rest in the end be found altogether groundles at the least within the boke of God And therefore I desyre as of before to hear his lordshipes probation of the principal M. Quintyne I am sorie that we ar contrined on this maner to driue tyme ather parteis in iustification of his a win cause bot wisses quicklie to go to the markis point as I haue euer done conforme to my artickle and to my warrand and makis the haile warld to iudge quhither it is my deutie efter formall ressoning to defend the saides artickles or to proue or to impung Quhair Iohn Knox makis ane meine that I haue brocht my argumeÌ„ts or purposes in writ quhat I haue in worde or writ or vtherwayes I praise God Bot the trueth is according to my custome I maid memorie efter my repose of sic heides as I thocht I was able to haue busines ado with all And that I did be the grace of God onely not that I am eschamed to be learned with ony man that wil teach me And as to the conclusioÌ„ of his partickle quhair he dois mak meine yat I haue na grouÌ„d of the Scripture for the messe as he beleuis will God sall frustrat his expectation in that When ye perform promes let men beleue you and all vthers And assures him will God sall iustifie the messe al 's sufficientlie conforme to my artickle as he and all the rest of his opinion in christendome salbe able to iustifie be expres Scripture or ony vther meine that Iesus Christe is ane substance with the Father Homonsion siue coÌ„substantialis And that it be not thocht that thir ar wantone wordes like as the mater sould not cum to pas bot that I wald trifle the mater I will desyre Iohn Knox maist humblie hartlie for Christes saike lat vs go schortlie without trifling to the purpose and lat wark beir witnes And swa requires to resume my argument and say thereto formalie as effeires Iohn Knox. Because that euerie man muste giue accomptes before God not onely of his workes but also of his wordes and thoghts I will make no further protestation whether that I haue defended hitherto my own opinion or a manifest treuth or whether that I haue impungned any treuth of God or a manifest lie let this be said with reuerence of all persones for the iustnes of the cause leauing I say the iudgement to God I say that I haue in plaine termes iustlie oppungned bothe the grouÌ„des broght forth by my Lord for defence of his artickle For in plaine wordes I haue denied that Iesus Christe into his latter Supper did make any Sacrifice of his bodie and blood vnder the formes of bread and wine vnto God his Father And lykewise I haue denyed that Melchisedec did offer vnto God bread and wine as of before which grouÌ„des because my Lorde hath not hitherto ê“uen I must hold them as impunged and oppuÌ„gned euer whill I hear the ground of Melchisedec plainly prouen by plaine Scripture to wit that the plaine Scripture say that Melchisedec offered vnto God bread and wine Let my lord answer when he pleases or that it be of any plaine and euident Scripture plainlie conuicted that so he did His lordship oght not to think it strange althogh I require to answer in writ to that argument which his Lordeship hath ê“ponded conceaued before and coÌ„mitted in writ for such I take to be the libertie of all fre disputations Whose lauboure it wes or is I nothing regard For so long as God doeth minister vnto me spirit life with iudgement and habilitie I intend by his grace til oppuÌ„g that which in my coÌ„science I hold to be damnable idolatrie And where his lordship sayeth that he is al 's able to affirme the masse which I impung to be the ordinance of God as that I or any of my opinion is able to proue Iesus Christe to be one substance with the Father Let the godlie iudge if the masse Christ Iesus his diuinitie oght to hing in one ballance with reuereÌ„ce of his lordshipes personage blood and honor and with the reuerence pacience of the whole auditor I say that the assercion is not onelie rashe but also moste dangerous yea and in a part blasphemous For for to compare the greatest mysterie yea the whole assurance of our redemptioÌ„ with that which as it hath bene vsed hath no approbation of Gods worde for that I haue impuÌ„gned and intendes to impung can not lack suspition of a lightlie esteaming of our redemptioÌ„ And to cut the matter short the formar question being decided to wit whither that Melchisedec did offer vnto God bread and wine I offer my self without further delay to proue that Iesus Christe is of one substance with the Father and that by the euident testimonies of Gods Scriptures And therefore yet as of before I humbly require his lordeship to prepare him for his probation of the formar to witt of the oblation of Melchisedec M. Quintyne Quhair Iohn Knox dois affirme that in plaine termis he hes iustlie impunged baith ye grouÌ„des brocht furth be me for defeÌ„ce of my artickles I answer I deny that he hes maid ony impuÌ„gnation And quhair he sayes that in
plaine wordes he hes denied that Iesus Christe into his latter Supper did make ony Sacrifice of his bodie and blude vnder the formes of bread and wine vnto God his Father or that Melchisedec did offer vnto God bread and wine Your warraÌ„d is so weak that it neides no other impugnation theÌ„ to say it is not as of before I answer that it is his deutie to mak impugnation to my assercion conform to my warrand for denying is na proper nor sufficient impugnation And quhair he sayes that because I haue not hidderto prouen the saides grouÌ„dis c. I answer that it is my deutie to defend and not to preif conform to my artickle my warrand And quhair he desyres tyme to answer to my argument ê“poned this day in writ I frely grant it vnto him And quhair Iohn Knox sayes Then ye ouersaw yourself yat my assertioÌ„ is not onely rashe bot also maist dangerous Èea and in ane pairt blasphemous I answer that quhair he sayes I am to rashe I wis his modestnes in this samin sic as becuÌ„is ane sinceir christiane like as he is reckned to be Blasphemie is blasphemie before that maÌ„ proue it And quhair he callis my assertioÌ„ in ane pairt blasphemous than had bene tyme to haue called it blasphemie quhen he had prouen it in deid sufficientlie And quhair he sayes it is dangerous thair is na danger it be and vnderstand as I say and treulie meines For I am mair nor assured that Iesus Christ our Lord is ane substance with the Father Not as papistes haue vsed it al 's that Iesus Christ is the author and institutor of the messe And swa dois not ane veritie mak impugnation to ane vther Bot in this maner of speaking I wil plaine my industrie giuen vnto me be the grace of God Aduerr what ye speak willing to contrafit the wisdome and prudence of the wise and prudeÌ„t medicinar for we are and sould be of resson medicinars to the saule for lyke as the prudent medicinar dois expell ane vennome or poysome be contrapoysone Swa wald I expel the damnable herisies of the Caluinistes My lord wolde haue bursen if this byle had not broken Lutherians and Accolampadians against ye blissed Sacrifice of ye messe be conference with the damnable herisies of the Arrians quha did alledge ten testimonies of Scripture for ane geuand mair appearance to preif that Christ was not ane substance with the Father nor dois the Caluinistes Lutherians and Aecolampadians to preif that the messe is idolatrie as I fall sufficientlie iustifie as may stand to the glorie of God and weil of my cause To the latter pairt quhair he sayes to cut the mater schort the fâ—râ—nar question be and decided to wit quhither that Melchisedec did offer breid and wine vnto God or not he offeris him selfe without farther delay to proue yat Iesus Christ is ane substance with the Father c. I answer to the hinder pairt of this partickle I wis of God he and all vthers of his opinion mistered al 's lytle probation or persuasion to the ane as I do to the vther as I wald say to beleue the messe to be the institution of Christ Iesus as I do mair nor assuredlie beleue Christe to be ane substance with the Father That ar you neuer able to do and desyres na probation thereof bot sall God will and preif ye ane be the Scripture al 's expres as he sall preif ye vther And quhair he humblie desyres me to prepair me for the probatioÌ„ of the formar to wit of the oblation of Melchisedec I humblie and hartlie desyre Iohn Knox as he will testifie his feruor that the treuth cum to ane tryall and as he will satisfie the expectation of the noble auditor that he will mak impugnation formallie according to his deutie to my last argument and conclusion Iohn Knox. Where my Lord to vnburden him self of that which by all reason he oght to susteane to wit to proue his affirmatiue by him self proponed Your lordship took to proue your ground by the text and that you haue not don sayeth that to deny is not properlie to impung I answer that in that cace it is moste proper For he that ê“poneth for him self an affirmatiue and his aduersar denying the same is euer still bouÌ„d to the probation thereof and the aduersar hath euer still impungned it vnto he proue it and thereupon I desire iudgement To the Second I stil affirme that it is his lordships deutie to proue his affirmatiue whereupoÌ„ standeth the victorie of his whole cause which is be me in plaine wordes denyed To the thrid I thank his lordship hartlie And that he hes receaued and promises vnto him an answer againe in writ this present conference being put to an sufficient end To the fourt As my protestation will witnes I speak against the assercioÌ„ onelie and not against the persone whiche yet in my iudgement lacketh not suspicion of the formar crimes For howsoeuer my Lord be persuaded of the ground and assurance of the messe the assurance whereof I haue not yet hard I my self am fully assured that there be mo then ten thousand which euidentlie do knowe the vanitie and impietie of that masse which I haue impungned who nottheles moste constantlie beleue Iesus Christe to be of one substance with the Father yea that do beleue whatsoeuer by the Scriptures of God can be prouen necessarie for the saluation of man Therefore yet againe I say that to lay in any maner of equalitie that which is moste sure and that which was neuer yet plainlie prouen by the Scriptures of God to be the institution of Iesus Christ is more subiect to the crymes foresaid then that I can be subiect to any suspicion of immodestie for my formar wordes To the blasphemie I answer as before Immediatlie to the sext How that euer my Lord vnderstandeth and meaneth that his lordship is al 's able to proue the masse to be the institutioÌ„ of Iesus Christ as I am able to proue Christ to be one substance with the Father I think that an great nomber will think my lords affirmation verrie hard to be prouen And I my self will still continually dout vnto the tyme I hear the probation led To the seuent as touching my Lordes comparison of the mediciner and of his lordships industrie What the pastors of the Church oght to be the Scriptures plainly do teach vs but what vniuersallie they haue bene these nyne hundreth yeares bypast histories experience and recent memorie hath taught vs yea and presentlie do teach vs to the great greif of all Christianitie Where that his lordship doeth in plaine termes condempn the Caluinistes Lutherians and Aecolampadians of herisie I wold haue required of his lordship delay of time according to his desyre of me vnto the tyme that there cause had bene sufficieÌ„tlie tried in an lawfull vniuersal
counsell deulie indicted and conuened But where that he compareth the doctrine of the forenamed with the damnable heresie of Arrius I wold lykewise haue wished vnto his lordship greater foresight in so graue a mater For howsoeuer the Arrians appeared to abouÌ„d in testimonies of Scriptures without all ground indistinctlie coÌ„gested and that because they made no diffreence betuix the two natures in Iesus Christe Let my lorde accuse before he coÌ„paiâ— but did foolishlie appropriat to the Godhead that which did onelie aperteane to the manlie nature yet think I that my lord shall neuer be able by plaine Scripture to impung any chief head ether affirmed or denyed in doctrine of saluatioÌ„ by the foresaides persons lyke as did the godly and learned in there ages the foresaid damnable herisie To the last I haue alreadie promised to answer to my Lordes argumeÌ„t in writ and therefore oght not to be burdened with it now especiallie because it is without our formar ground and doeth not properlie aperteane to the cause And yet therefore now last for conclusion that we shal not be compelled continually to repeat on thing I desyre my lord according to his deutie and reason of disputation Heir my lord stayed for answer offerred to me a book to bring forth his probation of his two formar groundes be me plainly denyed This conference being ended for this tyme my Lorde presentlie did rise for trouble of body and then Iohn Knox did shortlie resume the principall groundes And because the noblemen heir assembled were altogether destitute of all ê“uision bothe for hors and man the said Iohn humblie required the foresaid Lord that it wold please him to go to Air where that better easiment migh be had for all estates Which because my Lord vtterlie refused the said Iohn desired when that the said conference should be ended My Lorde did promes that vpon licence purchased Whither I haue so done or nor mo then them selues can witnes of the Quenes maiestie and her honorable counsell that he wold coÌ„peir in Edinburgh and there in there presence finish the said conference The said Iohn did promes to trauel with the secret counsel that the said licence might be obteined And desired the foresaid Lorde to do the lyke with the Quenes maiestie whereupon the said Iohn Knox took instruments and documents M. Quintyne At the conclusion of our ressoning The answer wes giuen before so that it apperteaned not to me to proue my interpretatioÌ„ but it appertened to my lord to proue that melchisedec offerred c. But that can not my lord vnderstand I gaif Iohn Knox ane argument in writ desiring him that he wald iustifie his opinion be expres testimonie of Scripture or ony apperance thereof Quhairto the said Iohn required tyme to gif answer and the tyme micht nawise serue of farder ressoning for sic causes as ar comprehended in the said Iohn Knox writing And as toward his desyre of me to Air treulie it was the thing that I micht not presentlie coÌ„modiously do Bot alwayes I will copeir before ye Quenes grace and sic as hit grace plesis to take to be auditors to defend the saides artickles and in special the artickle concerning the messe as thay ar written quâ—en and quhair it be hir grace plesure swa that the habilitie of my bodie will serue ony wise as I hope to God it sall to quhom be praise glorie and honor for euer Crosraguell The answer to my Lordes last argument proponed by him in writ the last day of disputation The argument is this M. Quintyne WHatsumeuer opinion is conceaued of the Scriptures of almichty God hauand na expres testimonie nor apperance of the samin is vtterlie to be refused as sayes Iohn Knox him self Bot swa it is that Iohn Knox a win opinion coÌ„ceaued or contracted of the Scripture concerning the bringing furth of bread and wine be Melchisedec to refresh or gratifie Abraham and his werie company is not expresly conteined in the Scripture nor hes na apperance of the samin thairfore it falâ—â— wis weiâ— that it is allâ—terlie be his awin iudgement to be refused Iohn Knox. Yf I should grant vnto you my Lorde your whole argument I should but declare my self ignorant of the art and â—â—â—lyndful of my owne affirmation but yet had ye prouen nothing of your intent The chief question and controuersie betuix you and me is not whether that my interpretation of that place which 〈◊〉 your instance and 〈…〉 not but whether that Melchisedec the figure of Christe did offer vnto God bread wine whiche ye haue affirmed and haue laid it to be the ground and cause why it behoued Christe Iesus to haue made oblation of his bodie and blood vnder the formes of bread and wine in his latter Supper Which bothe I denyed So that it rests to you to proue that Melchisedec the figure of Christ did offer vnto God bread and wine c. And apperteines not vnto me to proue my opinion nor interpretation For supposing that my opinion coÌ„ceaued of that place were to be reiected as ye are neuer able to proue it to â—e yet is your affirmatiue neuer the better prouen for if ye will conclude it wes not broght forth to refresh Abraham which yet is not prouen ergo it wes broght forth to be offered vnto God babes will mock you and send you againe to your logick But yet my Lord with your leaue I must come nerar you and say that the maior or first part of your argument is fals and that ye falsly alledge vpon me that which I neuer spak nor ment Read the whole conference betuix you and me and ye shall not find that I haue simple affirmed that all opinion of man conceaued of the Scriptures is vtterlie to be reiected onles the same be prouen by the manifest worde of God For I am not ignorant that some interpretatioÌ„s ar tollerable yea and may be to the edification of the Church althogh they do not fully expres the minde of the holie Goste in that place But I haue affirmed and yet affirmes that nether the authoritie of the Church the determination of the counsell nor the opinion of the doctor is to be receaued in matters of faith in the doctrine concerning our saluation onles the same be prouen by the expres word of God And therfore my Lord with your leaue I must say that ether wilfully or els by some ouersight ye haue omitted bothe in the maior in the minor of your argument that which should haue bene the cause and assurance of your conclusion For thus ye oght to haue reasoned Whatsoeuer opinion is conceaued of the Scripture of almightie God concerning faith and the doctrine of Saluation hauing no expres testimonie of the same is to be reiected But so it is that Iohn Knox owne opinion concerning the bringing forth of bread and wine by Melchisedec is a matter concerning faith and the doctrine of our Saluation