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A40846 A Famous conference between Pope Clement the Xth and Cardinal de Monte Alto concerning the late discovery of the Masse in Holy Scripture made by the worthy Father Patrick, an excellent engineer of the Church of Rome in England Clement X, Pope, 1590-1676. 1674 (1674) Wing F368; ESTC R7044 15,089 35

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Successor I am should have said the contrary and proclaimed them to be Vices He hath done enough to deserve our esteem for ever for he hath found the Masse in Holy Scripture This discovery will do us a great deal of good it will confirm our indulgence approve of our grants of liberty to sin It will secure and fortifie our Monastrical Garrisons and inspire into our noble Monks an invincible courage It will defeat and destroy all the enemies of our State and Kingdom 1 Cor. 3. 15. In a word I am in hopes that this new and seasonable discovery will furnish me with that by which I shall be able to maintain the Authority of St. Peter's Keyes in the World to enlarge my vast Dominions to embellish the palaces of pleasure where Peter took his delight and where I have caus'd his name to be engraven as testimones that I have them from him to encrease my Guards that are not neer so numerous as those that did wait upon St. Peter when he went from place to place to publish the Gospel to maintain his Triple Crown that In the Castle of St. Angelo and elsewhere St. Peter's Name is engraven he hath left me in possession It is very well quoth the Cardinal if it be true but I am in doubt whether it be so and that when the discovery be examin'd it will be found as vaine and groundless as your Temporall power upon those words here are two Swords or your Holinesses preeminency and Infallibility upon that other Text It shall lead you into all truth for your Holiness knows as you did lately avow that unless your possession were stronger and more aparant than your Right you should never obtaine what you now enjoy Your Holiness is obliged to the Ignorance of the Times and the sharpness of your Sword for your Dignity Infallibility and Papal power and not to any weak Text of holy Scripture It is true answered the Pope but this discovery is not to be doubted of and Father Patrick hath convinced me by sending to me a Bible turn'd into French by the Doctors of Lorrain printed at Paris 1664. for in the 3 ch verse 2. of Acts these blessed words are to be read of the Apostles saying Mass to the Lord Although this Translation be in French it is no less useful to England for that Nation naturally loves admires and embraces whatsoever appears to them in a French garb and countenance let it be never so rediculous It is easie to put the words into English as I understand Father Patrick hath already done and confirmed it by the Translation of the English Jesuites of Rheims who have done something more for they have very well mingled their holy Gloss with the obscure Text of Scripture so that we may with ease find in it all our Doctrines in express words Sure saith the Cardinal this Father Patrick hath most excellent Spectacles of an admirable temper seeing they have made him perceive things altogether Invisible for I have often read that passage but I must needs confess my dulness and the dimness of my sight and my Ignorance I could never perceive any such thing nor Imagine that the words could be so Translated for I find in the Greek Text 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where I have always Imagined that the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did signifie to Minister and serve Now the service and Ministry Intended is to be known only by the circumstances of the Discourse the Latine Translations do thus render the words Ministrantibus illis Domino and the Version of Louvain in French Eux servans en leur Ministere au Seigneur that is they serving in their Ministry to the Lord the very Sequel of St. Lukes discourse discovers what he means by this service and the Ministration for he speaks of certain persons amongst whom were Barnabas and Paul that whiles they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ministring unto the Lord when they had Fasted the Holy Ghost warned them to separate from them Barnabas and Paul for the work unto which he had called them therefore he adds when they had fasted and prayed they laid their hands upon them and sent them away where the words when they had fasted and prayed do sufficiently discover the end and accomplishment of the Ministration attributed unto these men From whence we may easily conclude that St. Luke understands by their prayer and fasting acts of Devotion the accomplishmnt of what he had spoken of when he tells of these persons that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Syrian Translation and the Arabick do discover the Evangelists meaning for they have rendred these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whilst they were praying besides we may consider the quality and employments of these men concerned St. Luke tells us that they were Prophets and Doctors It is therefore to be supposed that when he sayes that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Fasting that they were employed about the Functions and Offices proper to their Callings that is they did minister unto the Lord by prophecying and teaching and that afterwards they did Fast and pray to obtain Gods blessing upon their Labours and Teaching I am certain Cajetan favours this Interpretation for he speaks thus upon this Text The nature of their service and ministry is not here mentioned but because St. Luke names them Prophets and Deacons we are to understand that their Ministry was performed by teaching and preaching Untill this moment may it please your Holiness I was of the opinion of Cajetan that these words do represent the Apostles employed about the duties of their Function and that they did minister to the Lord by teaching and preaching the word to the people by administring the Sacraments and by other acts of piety and devotion I beseech your Holiness to make me understand more perfectly this discovery and how this Reverend Priest hath found the Mass in these words and wherefore he hath given to them this Interpretation I can't very well tell you replyed the Pope I don't much trouble my self to understand the Scripture nor to seek into the Original Text You know very well that these sacred books have no better nor more Honourable place assigned them in our publick Assemblies but my footstool for I am above all Holy Scripture I must not therefore so much abase my self and my dignity to pry and search into it with too much curiosity as if I were to depend only upon that but I l ' tell you as I conceive how he comes to make this good Discovery He is by profession one of my Priests whose employment is daily to Transubstantiate the Bread and the Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ By degrees he is become such an excellent Artist in the Mistery of Transubstantiation that he hath found out an expedient how to Transubstantiate also this and other passages of Holy Scripture and change the words Ministring unto the Lord into these saying Mass
unto the Lord. I am very well pleased with his Ingenuity and no body must think this proceeding strange for if he hath the power to transform and cause a metamorphosis of solid substance and turn Bread and Wine into other things of so great a disparity as flesh bones and blood It is no wonder if Father Patrick this Ingenious Priest hath also transformed and changed one expression into another if he can by his breath alone make the glorious Body of Christ now ascended up into Heaven to be found in a few Crums of Bread and a few drops of Wine Why may not Patrick by the same art cause the Holy Mass to be found also in a passage of holy Scripture where it was never before If he can so far command him who is named the Word to come down from Heaven as often as he pleaseth he may with more ease obliege him to speak what and when he listeth In the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he hath met with a motive that hath Incited him to this perform this metamorphosis for he hath met with certain happy Spirits of the Primitive World who have Informed him that in the Council of Chalcedon this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was Interpreted by saying Mass therefore the Council furnishes him with an excellent proof upon which he depends much because in the Actr of this Council the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Translated by a Latine Author facere-missas perform Masses as Julian tells us who himself was of that Councill And because this word is so to be understood in the deeds of this Council therefore it hath the same signification by very good reason in the Acts of the Apostles Don't you think that this reasoning is right and good I admire quoth the Cardinal the subtilty of this Priest but I am afraid that some damned Heretick will draw from this kind of reasoning advantages against us and as such kind of people do already say that we affirm of our Mass that it is not what it appears to be that appears Bread but that it is nothing less then Bread so they will talk of this passage Translated by Father Patrick that it is not what it seems to be That in appearance the Mass is in the Translation but in the Original there is no shape of the Mass to be seen They will also say that the arguing from the Interpretation of the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 found in the Acts of the Counsel of Chalcedon is not just nor reasonable for a word may have a different signification in Ages so much at a distance from one another for that Counsel was held 400 years after the Apostles besides these Hereticks may say that the word Missa Mass that was then lately found out has since in this Age changed its signification for it is with the Mass as with men their Faces differ before they come to an age of understanding look upon a man in his Chilhood and consider him afterwards in his old Age and you shall searce know him so it is with this Name If you look upon it in its first rise and afterwards take notice of it in the glorious appearance that hath been given to it in these last Ages and you will scarce believe them to be the same you will find a strange alteration It may be said of the Mass as of Noahs Ark and Theseus Ship that it was the same and yet not the same for the letters syllables and pronunciation is the same but the use and signification is not the same then it did signifie the dismission of the people or the leave to depart out of the Congregation granted to the Catechumenes who were dismist after Sermon or to the Rest of the Faithful sent away after the Administration of the Sacraments at the end of Divine Service Then they did say Facere missum Catechumenis or Facere missum fidelibus that is to dismiss the Catechumenes or the Faithful this word did then signifie generally all the publick Service of God at the end of which this dismission was thus performed Missa est So that then they called the publick Prayers of the Church the reading and preaching of the Word of God and the administration of the Sacraments by the Name of Mass these things Bellarmin hath confest Since the word is strangely changed to signifie the holy Sacrament of the Altar which is now its ordinary meaning Some therefore may say that in the Translation of the Counsel of Chalcedon to express the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it was never employed in the meaning that Reveend Father Patrick employes it in the 3 chap. of the Acts but doubtless this excellent Abbot so well kill'd in Transmutation can solve all the difficulties that may be made against him and his Interpretation But what benefit doth your Holiness imagine that we receive from this bold attempt of Father Patrick I conceive that he may have well encreased the glory of the Mass by raising it upon such a noble Throne and placing it to be seen upon the Theatre of Holy Scriptures He doth also by this meanes discover its profound Antiquity for it seems to be far more ancient than Christ and his holy Apostles for he may easily prove by this Word that all the Priests under the Law did say Mass very reverendly as well as the Briests under Luke 1. 23. the Gospel for St. Luke tells us that Zachary had accomplisht 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we must for the time to come Translate The dayes of his saying Mass And St Paul represents Moses sprinking the blood upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb 9. 21. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we must also render thus All the Vessels employed in saying Mass In the same place Heb. 10. 11 the Apostle tells us that every Priest did daily 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is according to this good Translation Say Mass and elsewhere he discovers how Christ doth continually say Mass in Heaven for in the same Ep. to the Heb. he tells us that we have an high Priest that is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty of God in Heaven 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that means saying Mass in the Holy places I conceive that the Holy Angels are Christs Deacons and Clarks in Heaven to answer him because in the same Epistle they are named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we are to understand by these words Spirits that say Mass Your Holiness that hath communication with Heaven may know something more of these Heavenly matters Well replyed the Pope we have just cause to expect the speedy conversion of all the Hereticks and if Father Patrick hath boasted of having made many a good Proselyte and turned them from protestantisme to popery although it was then but a Lye he may have said so by the spitit of prophecy such kind of deceits and falsehoods are to be considered and excused as so many pious frauds