Selected quad for the lemma: blood_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
blood_n	body_n	bread_n	consecration_n	9,959	5	11.0641	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87879	An answer to the Marques of Worcester's last paper; to the late King. Representing in their true posture, and discussing briefly, the main controversies between the English and the Romish Church. Together with some considerations, upon Dr Bayly's parenthetical interlocution; relating to the Churches power in deciding controversies. To these is annext, Smectymnuo-Mastix : or, short animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the point of lyturgie. / By Hamon L'Estrange, Esqr.	L'Estrange, Hamon, 1605-1660.	1651 (1651)	Wing L1187; Wing L1191; Thomason E1218_2; ESTC R202717	68,906	120

the avoidance of one for a man may err in retractation of what he hath said as Bellarmine hath done more than once as well as in saying what he retracts but in one place there must of necessity be an Error light that Error where it may that Church which so erreth I shall be loath to trust with matters of Faith The last Rub in his Lordships way is so inconsiderable as I shall stride over it and accompany him to his Church M. First we hold the Real Presence you deny it we say his Body is there you say there is nothing but Bread Before I come to direct Answer I shall briefly and I hope not impertinently premise First it is fit those Opposite Terms of We and You being so considerable should be further explain'd What is meant by We is little question'd the M. certainly intends the Romish Church what by You he does not clearly resolve us till p. 159. and there he tells us in capital letters 't is The Church of England and indeed writing English to an English King not Head but a Member though the noblest of the English Church it cannot in reason be supposed he should under that word You point at any other than the Church of England So then the Church of England is his Lordships You● and being so it is in my opinion a great blemish to his Honours Cause to charge and accriminate a Church with no less than Heresie and not with one onely but many very many and not produce any one Book or one Article where those Heresies are to be found but to accuse a Church of Heresies which are no where to be found and this he hath done very often is a blemish to his Honour as well as to his Cause What the Marques hath omitted in setting down the Doctrine of our Church shall be by me supplied and I will do it with that ingenuous integrity that I will not suppress any one syllable which may advantage her Adversaries in the least And first to the point of Christ's presence Thus The Body of Christ is given taken and eaten in the Supper onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Observe here 's the Body of Christ so something more than bare bread then it is given taken and eaten if so 't is there sure and verily and indeed as the Catechisme hath it and the Church of Ireland substantially wee 'll grant that too so that it had been much more for his Lordships credit to have forborn the urging of this Real Presence against us Non opus erat ut ea contra nos diceret quae dicimus secum why should he urge that against us which we assert with him Well but is there no difference between us Yes a very great one Rome holds a Transubstantiation a Conversion of the whole substance of the Elements in the Sacrament into the very body and bloud of Christ as the Councel of Trent hath it why did the Marques suppress this Tenet Durst he not own it He is then no Papist for what that Councel hath determined the Papists do and must hold On the other side our Church saith Christs body is there given taken and eaten onely after an heavenly and spiritual manner Now you have heard what both sides hold wee 'll give the Marques his Scriptures leave to speak next Matth. 20. 26. Take eat this is my body Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you I can see Christ's body here indeed but where 's the Conversion the Transubstantiation the Papists hold I cannot see that and though I can see Christ's body there yet there is something else which should be there I cannot see and that is Do this in remembrance of me which we conceive is an evident Explanation of the Mystery this his Lordship thought too hot for him so that if we stand to his carving we shall be sure to have that we have least minde to Now let his Fathers be produced Ignatius saith The Eucharist is the flesh of Christ so say we too and Ignatius tells you for all that it is Bread still and after Consecration too both are indeed most sure as Saint Hillary saith exceeding well Figura est dum Panis Vinum extra videtur veritas autem dum corpus sanguis Christi in veritate interius creditur It is the figure whilest the Bread and Wine are beheld outwardly but the truth it self when the Body and Bloud are inwardly in truth beleeved Justin Martyr saith That after Consecration the Elements become the body and bloud of Christ who doubts of it but speaks not of any Conversion of the substance nay saith expresly in the same place that the Deacons distribute after consecration the bread and wine clearly implying he thought not of any Transubstantiation but that the Elements kept their substance still Cyprian and Ambrose I confess spake the first of a Change the other of a Conversion of the Elements but 't is not of their substance neither but onely of their use Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur They are still what they were before but are changed in quality Such a Conversion we grant too we hold the Elements after Consecration differ in use and virtue from common Bread and Wine Rhemigius speaks not of Conversion if Christ's body be there sure his flesh is and I never read of any other flesh he had than what he took in the Virgins womb The difference is not whether Christ's body be here but how And if I did not think it time mis-spent I could destroy this carnal Doctrine by the testimony of twenty several Fathers who all understand the Presence to be no other than as a Symbole Type figure representation signe image likeness and memory of Christ's body crucified upon the Cross and as for Transubstantiation they never dreamt of such a word nor thought of such a thing I will onely instance in one and I hope his word may be taken because a Pope Non desinit substantia vel natura Panis Vini The substance of Bread and Wine is not changed or destroyed So Gelasius M. We hold that there is in the Church an infallible Rule for understanding of Scripture besides the Scripture it self this you deny Our Church hath no where delivered her self expresly in this point yet I take it to be the General Doctrine of Protestants that there is no other Rule besides Scripture to understand Scripture that is infallible For if Scripture be an infallible Rule why should we cumber our selves with more than one unless this one were hard to come by or easie to be lost And it seems his Lordship thought Scripture was one infallible Rule when he said there is another besides it and Bellarmine comes in with his Convenit inter nos omnes omnino haereticos In this point we are all generally agreed Heretiques and all that the Word of God

opinion who was a married Presbyter 't was not so in the opinion of those Bishops Athanasius a speaks of who were married nor so in our Island b for near six hundred years Protestants deny Prayer for the Dead this they had from Aerius Aerius was not condemned for an Heretique by Saint Augustine for denying Prayer for the Dead he onely saith that Aerius fell into Arrius his Heresie Propria quoque dogmata addidisse nonnulla dicens orare pro mortuis non oportere and added some private opinions of his own saying that we ought not to pray for the Dead So Augustine and Dogmata opinions are not Heresies Protestants deny Invocation of Saints this they had from Vigilantius for which he is condemned by Saint Hierome To deny Invocation of Saints was no Heresie in Hieromes time for Augustine his Contemporary saith that the Martyrs whose names are celebrated at the Altar non tamen a sacerdote invocantur are not yet invocated by the Priest Protestants deny Reverence to Images this they had from Xenias 'T is well known Worshiping of Images came first into the Church by the second Councel of Nice and as well known that that Councel was condemned by the Councel of Frankford And the Fathers ancienter far than both enroll the Gnosticks and Garpocratians aamongst Heretiques for adoring of Images and if it be Heresie to adore them it is certainly none to deny them Adoration Protestants deny the Real presence this they had from the Capernaites The Capernaites were no more Heretiques than the Disciples themselves of Christ for as one said How can this man give us his flesh to eat John 6. 52. So the other This is an hard saying who can hear it v. 60. Protestants deny Confession of sins to a Priest so did the Novatian Heretiques and the Montanists Protestants deny not Confession Auricular Luther who saith it is not necessary nor to be exacted yet withall saith it is utilis non contemnenda Profitable and not to be slighted Bucer commends it and saith It is the duty of Ministers to exhort rich persons to it Our Church in some cases injoyns it Nor did Novatus deny it his Error was that they who in Times of persecution fell away to Idolatry and delivered up the sacred Scriptures to be burnt should never be admitted to communicate with the faithfull in the Congregation not excluding them from all hope of mercy with God but from Communion with the Church that the strictnesse of this Discipline might strike into men the terror of Apostatizing And the Catholique Church her self went but one degree but one step further in her Indulgence beyond Novatus for whereas he in Reconciliation thought once was too much she her self thought but once enough and this was done as Augustine said Ne medicina vilis minus utilis esset aegrotis Lest the cheapness of the medicine should hinder the cure Nor did Montanus though too rigid in this particular deny it wholly for his Excommunication was but ad omne pene delictum for almost every offence and almost is a word of qualification of abatement Protestants say we are justified by faith onely this they had from the Pseudo-Apostles Our Justification by faith onely we had from Saint Paul Rom. 3. 28. and we hope he was no Counterfeit no false Apostle The false Apostles Saint Augustine speaks of were they who held that justifying Faith might be severed from and without works such an Opinion the Church of Rome maintains to this day and Protestants undertake the Papists for it Lastly as I have shewed your Majesty that your Church as it stands in opposition to ours is but a Congeries of so many Heresies so you shall finde our Doctrine amongst your own Doctors At last the Marques is come to his Lastly and if his So here proves no better than his former As his Lordships shews will be but So So And first he begins with the Greek Church who he saith holds Invocation of Saints Adoration of Images Transubstantiation Communion in one kinde but his Lordship is clearly out in the last for they communicat under both kindes though received at once {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} The Bread sopt in the Wine as Christophorus Angelus a Native of that place assures us And for Worshiping of Images he is half out there too for though they worship Images yet in their Churches they will not endure them as the Papists do In many points it cannot be deny'd they have confederacy with the Church of Rome they have their Errors and are censured for them by us and so they are by Bocardus a Monk with a Faxit Deus c. God grant there be no Fopperies crept into our Church meaning the Romish also His Lordship did toto coelo errare was Heaven wide when he reckon'd the Greek Church amongst our Doctors though true it is they hold indeed with us in the weightiest with the Papists in the most points And to little better purpose was it that he urgeth against us Luther the Hussites Wickliff and the Waldenses we own them not for our predecessors they had their Errors the Rancidity of Rome was not wholly out of them nor could it be expected otherwise For Illumination is not in Divinity as in Philosophy an instantaneous action we blesse God for the light they had though umbrageous and clouded yet was it such as discovered the nakednesse and shame of the Church of Rome And since the Marques hath begun to us we will requite him with shewing the Romanists our Tenets amongst their own Doctors whom they do and always account undoubted Catholiques and because he begins with Transubstantiation we will follow him in his own Order And first take notice when this opinion began to be an Article of Faith and for that hear Scotus Transubstantiation was not a point of Faith till the Lateran Councel And Tonstal Of the manner how Christs body is in the Bread it were better to leave every man to his own opinion as it was free before the Lateran Councel This Councel was celebrated as Bellarmine holds Anno 1215. And yet her decision hath not passed very currant neither For Scotus saith it doth not seem to be deduced out of Scripture that the substance of the Bread is not in the Eucharist Petrus de Alliaco That the substance of the Bread ceaseth to be there is not evidently imply'd out of Scripture Durandus T is rashnesse to affirm the body of Christ cannot be in the Sacrament but by conversion of the Bread into it Cajetan There appeareth not in the Gospel any coercive Argument that these words This is my Body are to be understood properly Walfridus Strabo After the celebration of the passe-over Christ delivered the Sacrament of his body and bloud in the Substance of bread and wine Ferus Since certain

any such thing upon record and therefore here his Lordship forsakes his old wont of saying the Fathers are of this opinion and stands ingenuously silent no more then what Bellarmine did before him who in this very point leaveth his old Idem probatur ex Patribus The same is proved by the Fathers and fairly giveth them the slip M. We hold that Christ offered up unto his Father in the sacrifice of the Masse is a true and lively sacrifice this you deny Our Church saith the sacrifices of the Masse are blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits His Lordship urgeth Malachy 1. 11. In every place incense shall be offered to my name and a pure offering This could not be meant of the Jewish sacrifices nor of that real sacrifice of Christ upon the Crosse but of the dayly sacrifice of the Masse Of the 2 former I grant with the Marques it could not be meant and fear the sacrifice of the Masse cometh in so late and so many to be served before it that it will speed as ill as they For first there is a sacrifice of Prayer Psalm 50. It might be meant of that and so Irenaeus and Hierome understood it There is a sacrifice of Praise the fruit of our lips Heb. 13. 15. It might be that so Augustine and Cyprian understood it There is a sacrifice Eleemosynary of almes with which is God well pleased Heb. 13. 16. It might be that there is the sacrifice mentioned Rom. 12. 1. a living sacrifice It might be that any of these or all these it might be And therefore that great Commemorative sacrifice of the blessed Eucharist comprehendeth them all in our Church Leiturgy the 2 and last in the Prayer after the celebration of the Sacrament Our sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving we offer our selves our Souls and bodies to be a living sacrifice c. The first and third in the Prayer for Christs Church we beseech thee to accept our Almes and receive these our Prayers which we offer unto thy Divine Majesty His other Text is Luke 22. 19. This is my Body which is given for you but {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} what have we here not to you said the Marques then it seems Christ mocked his Disciples as the Biscains do the King of Spain with their bag of Maravides when he said Take Eat and when they were about to take what they thought they should eat he said Soft there 't is given for you not to you Now to his humane Authorities and he beginneth from the Apostolical Times if those Constitutions were of Clemens which sure his Lordship thought we had more wit than to grant but be the Author who he will what saith he he calleth it a reasonable unbloudy and mystical Sacrament True but then it is no proper Sacrifice for it is Bellarmine's Rule that all Sacrifices whatsoever must be destroi'd if they be living they must be kill'd if dead they must be consumed solid things as meat salt c. by fire liquid by powring out as wine water c. so the Sacrifice of Crist's body if proper must not be unbloudy But this supposed Clemens was going on why did the Marques interrupt him 't is too hard to put upon us counterfeit and clipt money too for his next words are which is celebrated by the symboles of the body and bloud in commemoration of his death We hold with Augustine the Communion of the Body and Bloud of Christ is a singular and most excellent sacrifice and with Chrysostome it is a heavenly and most reverend sacrifice but still it is no true and proper sacrifice We say the Sacrament of Orders confers grace c. The Ordination of Ministers we deny to be a Sacrament and if it were we deny also that the opus operatum or imposition of hands confers grace Man's hand is imposed but it is God that does the deed nor doth the Texts urged prove any such thing for the word is 1 Tim. 4. 14. not {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Grace but {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} the gift peculiar to that Function We hold that Priests and other religious persons who have vow'd chastity to God may not marry afterwards c. This the Papists hold indeed and {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} somewhat more viz. That the vow of continence is indispensably annext to sacred Orders The Marques should not thus niggardly dispense to us the Oracles of his Church Let any Romish Catholique prove this by Canonical Scripture and then he shall speak to purpose to better purpose than the Marques for his first place out of Deut. is meant of a lawfull Vow and all Vows are not lawfull not that of Michah Judg. 17. 3. not that of the 40 in the Acts 23. 12. not this of chastity it being not in any man's power Nor is that of 1 Tim. 5. 11 12. more pertinent though his Lordship takes it to be most clear saying What can be meant hereby but the vow of obastity Yet Bellarmine could have told him that Faith neither here nor anywhere else nusquam signifieth a Vow a promise it sometimes doth he confesseth and so do I and so is it meant here For there were in those Times some Women chosen who might wait upon the necessities of the Poor and were called Diaconisses and in order to that service requisit it was they should be Widows free from domestique cares and distractions nor were they onely chosen such but when chosen the Church exacted of them to continue constant in that state as well they might if of 60 years before that choice We say Christ descended into hell and delivered thence the Souls of the Fathers you deny it Our Church saith As Christ died for us and was buried so also is it to be believed that he went down into hell But that there was a goal delivery of the Fathers upon his going thither or that they were in any Limb of it she doth not believe but leaveth every man at liberty to think what he please And truly I must crave pardon here of the Marques for my heart will not serve me to go along with him in this particular and of that very reverend Prelates mind I am that it is a kinde of descent into hell to be conversant in the controversies about it For indeed he that is once in will not so soon out for about the manner and place of his descent it is interminabilis contentio generans lites non finiens quaestiones an endlesse contention begetting new strifes not deciding old questions For my part I believe he was buried and descended into hell nor will I enquire further ne curiosus in inquirendo cur quomodo excidam e bonis nobis propositis as Athanasius in a not unlike case lest inquiring too narrowly into the Why and How I loose treasures of higher concernment M.