we haue tried all redie are not bothe one but farre vnlike and differeth muche for that before was that the sacrament it selfe is no article of our feithe necessarie to be beleued c. And this nowe is that it is none article of our feithe necessarie to be beleued that the sacrament is the naturall bodie of Christe Wherfore these bee two foundacions HERE Sir that same other before he did not laie for a foundacion CATH That is not so his owne woordes doothe proue the contrarie For in satisfiyng the requeste of his brother in Christe as touchyng this sacrament his owne woordes thou knowest be these First I proued vnto hym he saith that it was none article of our feith necessarie to be beleued c. Here thou seest no lesse but of all that buildyng this parte he laied firste as he saith hym selfe And in all buildynges that is the foundacion whiche is first laied Therfore other he laied that for a foundacion or els thou must nedes graunt that there he builded without any foundacion at all as the moste foolishe builder neuer dooeth And therfore although he dooeth not proprely name but one foundacion yet two as I said he hath laied for all that wherof sith we haue tried the one alredie let me nowe here what profe he maketh of this other Capitulo 3. HERE His profe is this Firste we muste all acknowlage he saith that it is none article of our feith whiche can saue vs nor whiche we are bounde to beleue vnder the peine of eternall damnacion For if I shulde beleue that his very naturall bodie both flesh blood were naturally in the bread and wyne that shuld not saue me seing many beleue that and receiue it to their damnacion for it is not his presence in the breade that can saue me but his presence in my herte through feith in his bloode whiche hath washed out my synnes and pacified the fathers wrath towarde me And agayne if I dooe not beleue his bodely presence in the bread and wyne that shall not damne me but the absence out of my herte thorough vnbelefe Nowe sir here ye haue herde his profe what saie ye to it CATH In very dede with some of his owne woordes I saie to it this First we must all acknowlage that he is the moste subtill craftie and wilie solititour of his masters cause that euer traueled in this matter so farre as I haue redde For if the diuell hym selfe were incarnate and so shulde come amonge vs to see what he coulde dooe againste the faithe of this holy sacramente what might he inuent or imagine therin more subtilly more craftily and with more wilynesse for the purpose then this man of his hath doone alredie For he dooth not directely denie it a sacrament he dooth not directly denie it an article of our feith he doothe not directly denie that we are bounde to the belefe of it nother But he goeth anere waie to worke then so For all these waies or any of them he knewe right well had ben of suche a sorte to swade at the firste that men wolde haue ben therin more redy to spette at hym then willyng to here hym Wherfore he thought to begynne an other waie that is to saie with no more but onely the deniall of the peine of damnacion dewe for the not beleueinge therof And that because he considered how prone reddie and gladde all men are to bee ridde of the perill and daunger of peines specially the peines of damnacion And therfore to creepe the more easely into their fauour he thought to enter with that whiche thei had moste luste to here Beyng well assured that if he preuailed therin as it semed to him moste like all the reste of his purpose should easly folowe as to playne it is that it hath doone in a great sorte For if I shuld intende to allure thee from the belefe that Christe was borne of a virgin how coulde I so craftily and so easely brynge it aboute by any meanes as by this perswasion that there is no perill of damnacion therin For let me once brynge the out of the feare of that perill And then who dooth not see how easy a matter it were to bryng the out of thee feare of all other perils whiche are nothynge in respecte of that sith thou mightest kepe the from them with not bewraiyng thy selfe And when thou arte once therin throghly ridde and paste the feare of all perils what case art thou in then with thy feithe of that article but euen cleane careles for no man careth but for feare of some displeasure that might ensue Therfore when thou art careles whether thou beleue it or no what nede any farder perswasion to moue the from it specially when the propretee of the thyng is suche as will neuer abide with him that careth not for it for he that careth not for it setteth nothyng by it And he y t setteth nothyng by it other hath lost it or will not longe kepe it And therfore when it is once come to be nothyng set by To what cometh it farder but euen to contempte and extreme hatred wherof there can be no greatter profe then the lamentable experience therof to great and openly knowen For hath not this wilie Reinarde by the meanes of this his diabolicall perswasion of no perill of damnacion in the lyke case brought many a one to the same pointe with this holy sacrament whiche we nowe speake of as it maie moste plainely apere by the shamefull approbrious woordes and behauiour of his owne disciples whiche sticke not some in the pulpet and moe in the ale howse to call it iacke in the boxe A god of .xxiiii. a penny A god of the bakers makyng A great idoll a sacrament of the halter in dirision of it and of the holy alter with such other moste shamefull both saiyngê and examples so horrible and odible as can not but abhorre all good Christen eares to here them Therfore in this pointe to conclude as I began First me muste all acknowlage if we dooe well that he is as I saide the most wilie subtill and craftie solititour of his masters cause that euer medled in this matter Secundarily we must all acknowlage likewise that he is not so wilie subtill and craftie one waie but that he shewth hym selfe as fonde and foolishe an other waie as it dooth partely apere euen nowe and muche more shall here after For here thou seest he taketh vpon him as a matter of great weight to proue that whiche no man learned will denie HERE What is that CATH That the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe For who knowth any thynge and knoweth not that although it bee commonly called the bodie of Christe as right well it maie for diuers causes whiche here after shall well apere HE. Sir of this folie I dare well excuse hym For although it be knowen to theÌ„ that be lerned that the sacrameÌ„t it selfe
A MANIFESTE DETECTION OF THE notable falshed of that part of Iohn Frithes boke which he calleth his foundacion And bosteth it to be inuincible newly set foorthe by John Gwinneth Clerke ⧠LONDINI 1554. Capitulo 1. CATHOLICVS Ah couÌ„trey man thou art I perceiue a good riser in a morning for I thought little to finde thee here so soone HERETICVS Sir if you had slepte this night no more then I did ye wolde haue bene here perchaunce as soone as I. CATH why thou seest I keepe myne houre and somewhat afore HER. No sir that I dare saie ye dooe not For eyght of the clocke was your houre And nowe it is almoste nyne or nyne all together if it bee not more CATH Not of any clocke in London I am sure HERE Naie then are ye well if ye truste to the clockes of London CATH Why not HERE Ye knowe right well thei neuer agree together And therfore we may be sure thei goe not trewe CATH Then bee they wonderfull like vnto heretikes and nothyng so euill to bee trusted as thei bee whiche dooe alwaie deceiue as the clockes dooe not for there is fewe or none of the clockê but are sometyme in trewth and so are theretikes neuer as thou maiest well perceiue by that I said yesterdaie if thou beare it in mynde HERE Well syr I praie you let all that passe and nowe to the purpose we come for CATH Ye but firste tell me how it chaunsed that thou sleptest no better to night HERE Shall I therin be playne CATH What els HERE In very deede it was euen longe of you CATH Of me how so HERE Ye gaue me suche a banket to bedwarde yesternight at our partynge as hath not a litle troubled my head euer sence CATH What was that HERE Euen the same that ye sayd of myne olde frende Iohn Frith CATH What saied I of hym HERE Ye saide he was as subtill foolishe and false as euer was any man that ye haue redde or herde of CATH And callest thou that a banket to bedwarde HERE I maie so call it well enoughe for it was and yet is vnto me a bitter banket in dede CATH Why so HERE Ye will not thinke howe muche it greueth me to here hym so reported CATH Then consider therwith ageyn howe little it will greeue thee to here hym so proued HERE How little Naie how muche ye maie saie CATH How muche thou wotest nere what thou saiest For wilt thou bee more greeued with the dewe profe then with thonly reporte of his falshed by whom thou art not a litle deceiued when for all the reporte thou maiest yet remayne other in doubte or cleane out of credence therof and so be deceiued stille where as by the dewe proffe thou maiest bee certaine and sure and no longer deceiued excepte thou wilt thy selfe And therfore with the reporte thou canst not bee so muche greued as with the dew proffe thou oughtest to be glad and well pleased HERE No syr not so For although I do here my frende euill reported yet because the reporte maie chaunce to be false it can not greue so muche as the dewe proffe therof whiche dooeth assure me that it is trewe Wherfore the proffe must nedes be more greuous then the reporte if I take it right CATH That is in respect of hym and not of thy selfe that is to saie for his sake and not for thine owne To bee sory for thy neighbours falshed in that he shulde chaunce to bee one of that sorte is very well doone whether thou haue it by profe or reporte other But of the other side as touchyng thin owne parte to bee sory for that thou art by a dewe profe brought to the knowlage therof were more then extreme foolishnesse sith by that thou canst take no maner of hurte but rather the great commoditee of escapynge all suche displeasure as might chaunce to ensue of the contrarie And therfore what other thynge is it not to be gladde to knowe the falshede of a deceiuer But euen to be wilfully and worthily deceiued as many a one is And therfore if thou be one of that sorte whiche are so greeued with the reporte of Frithes falshed that thei can not bee pleased with the dewe profe therof it will be as harde for the as it is for them to take any profite of the beste probacion that is therof possible to bee made whiche vnto them is farre insufficient and nothyng worthe HERE Why so CATH Because of their owne obstinate wilfulnesse Whiche is the directe enemie and greattest resister of all trewthe and therfore moste incurable of all euils Wherfore if I wiste that thou were one of them in dede I wold euen now bidde the farewell and talke no more with thee For if I did my labour were therin but loste HERE Syr ye shall not finde me a refuser of reason CATH And thou shalt not fynde me an offerer of any other HERE Then I meruell howe ye wyll discharge your selfe of this that ye saie Frith was so subtill foolishe and false CA. For that purpose I shall finde matter enough and it were but in that parte of his worke whiche he dooeth call the foundacion of his treatise wherin he thinketh him selfe so strong and moste sure HERE What he saith therin I remember very well And therfore I wyll shewe you some parte therof CATH No not yet for I will make the first recitall my selfe And therin tell me whether I dooe it trewly or no. HERE And euen so will I by your leue CATH I am well content with all HERE Whether ye be or not I will be so bolde at this time CATH I know it to be a parte of thy profession to lacke no boldnesse HERE I maie be bolde in my frendes cause Capitulo 2. CATH Spare not and therfore take hede and harken well to it For in the preface and firste lefe of his booke where he maketh mencion of a brother of his not a brother of consanguinitee but a brother of his religious fraternitee his owne wordes be these This brother he seith after muche communicacion desyred to know my mynde as touchyng the sacrament of the bodie and bloud of our sauiour Christe whiche thynge I opened vnto hym accordynge to the gifte that god had geuen me First I proued vnto hym that it was none article of our feith necessarie to bee beleued vnder peine of damnacion Then I declared that Christe had a naturall bodie c. ¶ Nowe for so muche thou herest what he saith HERE I will not denie but those be his owne wordes in dede CATH And in these wordes thou seest playne that he saith the sacrament of the bodie and bloude of our sauiour Christe is none article of our feith necessary to be beleued vnder paine of damnacion HERE All that I graunte CATH Therfore if it bee not vnder the peine of damnacion I aske of hym vnder what peine then he will not saie vnder any peines of purgatorie
be a sacrament then is it an article of our feith as bothe the one and the other Frithe him selfe dooeth confesse and graunte Therfore if it be an article of our feith Then the trewth that is in it must needes be of Christe for what so euer hath not in it a trewth of Christ without faile can be no article or part of his feith Now because a thing can not be beleued or not beleued but that the trewth therof muste needes therin go withall Marke what foloweth This article he saieth we are not bound to beleue And the trewth of this article is the trewth of Christe Wherfore we are not bounde to beleue the trewth of Christe if we beleue Frithe For to beleue or not beleue this article without the trewth therof or the trewth therof without the article is not possible because they be inseperable and can not be beleued or not beleued but bothe together Beside this if there bee any one of the sacramentes more excellent then other doubtles this sacrament of the blessed bodie and bloud of our sauiour Christ must nedes be the cheefe And therfore if we be not bound to beleue this sacrament plaine it is that we are not bound to beleue any for bound to any and bounde to the chiefe of the other side not bounde to the cheife and bounde to none Therfore what muste folow but after this doctours mynde we maie bee bolde without any parill to shake hands with them al and bidde them cleane farre well As they but late went very nere it which reteined but euen bare two of them And that was perchance but euen for a while nother Wherfore thus thou hast now a sufficiente profe of the firste stone that this blynde builder hath layd in his foundacion whiche is so euell fauordly and vntrewly wrought that it can not couch or well lie of any side but so sotteringe and farre out of square that it can neuer be able to beare any good piece of worke as euen nowe it maie and here after shall muche more largely apere For if a stone well wrought and euill laide can not make but a shrwed peece of worke what doeth a stone euill lated and wors wrought but marre all together Therfore how Frithe laied this stone beside his wronge working therof thou maiest perceiue was after this sorte It is a sacrament he saieth and an article of our feith and yet we nede not beleue it would any man thinke that it coulde be laied any wors then so yet to see whether it will lie any better an other waie let vs turne it vpset downe HERE As how CATH Euen thus If we nede not beleue it it is none article of our feithe nor yet no sacramente nother And therfore how likest thou the leiynge of it nowe HERE It lieth wors this way then it did before CATH That is long of the workemanshipppe For Frithe wrought bothe that is to saie as well the one side as the other and of the two euill he laide the worste vnderneth out of sight wherby it might the more easly and sooner deceiue HERE How so euer Frithe laied it yet am I sure that he neuer so wrought it as you haue nowe laied it CATH How knowest thou that HERE Because he nother saieth we nede not beleue it nor that it is none article of our feith nor no sacrament as ye laie now all three to his charge but he dooeth saie the contrary and that in plaine wordes directly And therfore the laiyng of it as ye laie it now is of your owne head and not of his Cap. 5. CATH Because thou goest so farre in the matter doeth he not saie in plaine wordes that we are not bound to beleue it vnder peine of damnacion And of that haue I not proued vnto the that he meaneth vnder no peyne at all and therby consequently that we are not bound Therfore all this remembred what other thing is it to say that we are not bound to beleue it Then to saie we nede not beleue it for we nede not to dooe that we are not bound to and what other thing is it to saie that we nede not beleue it then to saie it is none article of our feith for if it be an article of our feith we are bounde to beleue it or els we are not bound to the beliefe of the whole feith when there is nothing els that maketh an heretike but the lacke of some part of it Wherfore if we be bound to the beliefe of the whole feith we must nedes be bound to the beliefe of this article whiche is a parte of it by Frithes owne saiynge Of the other side if we be not bound to the beliefe of this article as he dooeth saie we are not then it is none article of the feith at all If it be none article of the feith then it is no sacrament nother For all though euery article of our feith be not a sacrament yet for all that euery holy sacrament is an article Therfore why is it called an article of our feith but because our feith ought so to receiue it If our feith ought so to receiue it why dooth Frith saie we are not bound to beleue it if we be not bound to beleue it why dooeth he say that it is an article of our feith which he dooeth cleane cutte away againe in that he saieth we are not bound to beleue it Therfore say not as thou saidst that I lay this of mine owne head for I laie herein nothing els but onely the same that was in effecte wrought and conceiued in Frithes head as it is now proued by an ineuitable consequence of his owne woordê before recited wherin whether he dooe now apere more foolishe then false or more false then foolishe iudge thou if thou canst for crew it is that I can not Cap. 6. HERE Well sir yet I pray you here farder of his mynde and then will I tell you more of mine CATH With a good will HERE In the seconde leafe of his booke his wordes be these The foundacion he saieth of that little treatise was that it is none article of our feith necessary to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion that the sacrament shuld be the naturall body of Christ which thing is proued on this maner CATH Softe stay there awhile for it is mete and conueniente that before we entre into the profe of a matter we shulde first perpende weigh and consider the matter it selfe and be certaine therof lesse otherwise we should goe about to proue we can not tell what Therfore the matter as I take it is this that he saith it is none article of our feithe necessarie to bee beleued vnder peine of damnacion that the sacrament shulde be the naturall bodie of Christe HERE The same is it CATH And this he calleth his foundacion HERE All that is trewe CATH Then hath he leid two foundacions For this and the other before whiche
is not the very naturall bodie of Christ as it is cōmunely called yet he doth well to make a profe of the trewthe therof for the vnlerned sake to whom it is otherwise or not so well knowne Capitulo 8. CATH Then yet thirdly we must all acknowlage once againe that it is harde to saie whether he be herein more foolishe or false For plaine it is that here he doothe promise one thynge and clene omittyng the same gothe aboute to performe an other HERE How so CATH Dooest thou not see it plaine that he dooeth here promise to proue that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe And for the performance therof doost thou not see againe that he goeth a bowte to proue that the naturall bodie of Christe is not in the sacrament As though it were all one to saie that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe and to saie that the naturall bodie of Christe is not in the sacrament Euen as I might saie thy sowle is not thy bodie and for to make the beleue the same goe aboute to proue that thy sowle is not in thy bodie as though to be and to be in were all one that is to saie as though to be the howse and to be in the howse were without any difference Therfore because Frith in diuers places of his booke doubtyng of mens sightes dooth saie in the fourthe lefe this might expounde our matter if men had eies to see other he him selfe had eies to see this muche as I saie or els he had not If he had not but spake blyndly he wiste nere what how foolishe dooth he apere If he had and saw what he did how plaine false dooth he shewe hym selfe whiche is farre wors wherfore sith his posicion and his probacion are here of such a degeneracion that thei are without all possibilitee of any agrement to gether let vs therfore helpe hym to change his posicion and frame it somewhat acordyng to the pretence of his probacion to see what it will proue then because it is nothyng to the purpose now HERE How shall we dooe that CATH Thou seest his posicion in effect is this that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe And his pretēded probacion rēneth not vpon that but vpon this that Christes naturall bodie is not in the sacrament Therfore let his posicion be euen so to see whether his pretended probacion will reache vnto that or no. HE. Yes I doubt not therof CA. Whether thou do or not yet we must all acknowlage once againe as it dooth plainly apere that he hath in this pretended probacion brought for him none authoritee of holy scripture none of olde holy doctors nor yet so muche as any one sparke of reson or truth other For all his great pretence of defēdyng him selfe by those three authoritees as it apereth in the thirde and fourtenth lefe of his booke if thou markeit well HERE Yes syr very good reason he bringeth here for he saith If I shoulde beleue that his very naturall bodie bothe fleshe and blude were naturally in the bread and wyne that shuld not saue me seeynge many beleue that and receiue it to ther damnacion How saie ye nowe CATH If thou call this good reason thou haste but a little witte For beside that he doothe here call it breade and wyne of a spite against the contrarie as though it were breade and wyne in dede whiche is most false as hereafter it shall well apere And beside his foolishe speakynge in this that he saithe If I shulde beleue that his very naturall bodie were naturally therin as who saie because we doe beleue that Christes very lyuely bodie is presently and verely in the sacrament we beleue it to bee therin naturally when we dooe not beleue it to be so in heauen And yet we beleue it to bee verely there in dede for all that But this man dooeth speake as though it were alwaie a generall rule that where so euer any thynge is presently it wer there also naturally As who saie when an arowe is shotte vp in to the aire it were there naturally or a bladder blowen full of aire and conueied by violence downe to the botome of the water it were there naturally Or as who saie when god toke Helias from the societee and companie of mortall men and did lifte hym vp into heauen he passyng through the aire was there aboue naturally Besyde I saie all this very false foolishe and nothyng to the purpose what is there in it els whiche doothe proue it none article of our feith that we are bownde to beleue For there aboute he goeth HERE That many beleue it he saith and receiue it to their damnacion CATH What meaneth he by that are we not bounde to beleue it because thei beleue it HERE Naie not therfore ▪ CATH What then Because thei receiue it HERE No nother CATH Then is it because thei beleue it and receiue it to HERE He meaneth not so nother CATH How then HERE As Paule saieth He that eateth and drynketh it vnworthily doothe eate and drynke his owne damnacion CATH A then he groundeth hym selfe herein vpon saynt Paule HERE What els CATH In dede it were els but euen his own dreame as I wene we shall fynde it neuertheles Therfore if the cause why that we are not bounde to beleue it be nother because thei beleue it Nor because thei receiue it nor yet because thei beleue it and receiue it bothe but because of that whiche foloweth that is to saie to their damnacion Then why is it to their damnacion HERE For their vnworthinesse CATH Therfore when Frithes reason is either nothyng or els this that we are not bounde to beleue it because many receiue it to their damnacion And thei receiue it not to their damnacion but because of their vnworthinesse how clerely doothe it folowe that their vnworthines is the cause why by his reason that we are not bound to beleue it And how madde a witte hath he whiche will thynke that any other mennes vnworthines can set vs of or on with the bonde of our belefe in any poynte of our feithe Capitulo 9. HERE Sir yet ye take him wronge still For he doth not mene that their beleuing or vnworthy receiuing of it to their damnacion is the cause why that we are not bounde to beleue it CA. How then HERE He dooth mene no more but that it dooeth shewe that we are not bound to beleue it CATH Aha then it is come from a prouing to a shewing and that full wise for that they dooe beleue it doeth rather shewe that we be bounde to dooe so to rather then the contrarie HERE What when they receiue it to their damnacion CATH Yea for all that for why dooe they receyue it to their damnacion because they beleue it HERE Nay that is not his minde nother for then he wolde not haue saied we are not bounde to beleue it
incertaine places beside what shall we or can we make of hym els but euen as he maketh of him selfe a very false harlot in deede And therfore as towchinge the other parte of his plaie what a foole was he to chose saint Austen among all other to bee his witnesse herein when there was none more vnmete for his purpose then he as belike he did suspect and yet wold haue him neuerthelesse for his foolishe phaÌ„sie trusting that with the sound of his name to do somewhat whereas with his whole saiyng he coulde doe nothynge But yet notwihstande all his great shifte made to kepe hym from herynge wherein he sheweth hym selfe as he is yet was he brought by meane vnto it at laste and then tolde his tale so directly against the peruers purpose of Frithes wicked folie that nothyng could be saide more plaine to the contrarie as thou hast nowe herde thy selfe alredie Wherfore consider that thou haste here nowe for one pece of thy frendê falshed suche a manifeste profe as I dare saie nother thou nor any frende that he hath beside is able to caste any colour of excuse therupon excepte it be with tushe tushe no no or some other wriglynge and startlynge talke from one thynge to an other till vndiscussed the matter be wrapte vp euen all confusely together as your common practise is alwaie to dooe Therfore let this be sufficient as it is in dede to knowe what he is Cap. 19. HERE Naie sir not so For he wolde not call it the very foundacion of all his matter if he had not somewhat els to make for hym then all this CA. I praie thee what is that HE. No lesse then an other saiynge of saint Austen whiche maketh as well for hym as any thyng that ye herde yet CA. I thinke thou saidest not a trewer worde to daie HE. Naie sir I wot what you meane by that wel enough but I meane this that it maketh for him very wel CA. Who wold beleue that knowyng so much as thou hast herde HE. That is no matter saint Austens woordes he saith be these As many as in that maÌ„na did vnderstande Christe did eate the same spirituall meate that we dooe But as many as sought onely to fill and satisfie their hunger with that maÌ„na did eate and are deade And likewise the same drinke For the stone was Christe CATH What I praie thee will Frith make of this HERE Mary sir ye shall here his owne woordes Here you maie gather he saith of saint Austen that the maÌ„na was vnto them as the breade is vnto vs. And likewise that the water was to them as the wyne is to vs whiche anone shall appere more plainly CA. So it had nede For he sendeth vs here to a gatherynge wherin I see not what we can gather more trewly then euen the same of him that we haue gathered before HERE No sir for he dooth alege that saint Austen saith furder these woordes Moyses also did eate manna Aron and Phinees did eate of it and many other did there eate of it whiche pleased god and are not deade Why so Because thei vnderstode the visible meate spiritually Thei were spiritually an hungered thei tasted it spiritually that thei might spiritually be replenished thei did all eate the same spirituall meate and all did drinke the same spiritual drinke Euen the same spirituall meate albeit an other bodely meate For thei did eate manna and we eate an other thynge but thei did eate the same spiritual whiche we dooe And thei all dranke the same spiritual drinke Thei dranke one thynge and we an other but that was in the outwarde apparence whiche for all that did signifie the same thing spiritually how dranke thei the same drinke Thei saith the apostle dranke of the spirituall stone folowyng them and that stone was Christe Now sir al this doth he allege of saint Austen CA. Yea but doest thou recite it trewly as he doth allege it HE. Euen as he doth translate it out of latine into englishe looke in his booke when ye will And therfore what saie ye to it CA. This same I sai to it that al this same difficultee of this same point after this same maner is put this same waie clene out of doubte if men take this same trewth as it is in dede y t this same errour of this same felow made hym of this same blindnesse that he was of this same iugemeÌ„t that this same worde the same could none otherwise be vnderstande but euen the same waie that he thought the same shuld draw men from the same feith which al trew christen people doth holde bringe them into the same heresie whiche the same Frith hym selfe doth teache And all this same I saie did he by reason of this same worde the same For is he not as one in a maze now in the same path where he began And therfore euen iuste in the same case that he was than For is there any other cause why he doth allege these wordes of saint Austen but that he saith thei did eate and drinke the same spiritual meate drynke that we dooe For what if saint Austen had put this worde an other in the place of this woorde the same or els had left them both cleane out HE. Sir that had ben an other matter it had bene then nothyng for Frithes purpose And therfore he wolde not alleged it if it had ben so CA. Thou saist very trew And therfore all that semeth herein any thyng to make for him thou maiest well perceiue doth only reste as I saide in this same woorde the same And haste thou not herde enough what a proper principle it is beyng vndefined to proue or conclude any thyng by Neuerthelesse WheÌ„ Frith him selfe doth take this same spiritual meate and drynke to be the bodie bloode of Christe as in the iiii leafe of his booke his owne wordes therof are these This Abraham he saith did both eate his bodie and ' drynke his bloode through feith ' I wolde therfore wit of hym whether he take the same meate drinke to be only spiritual not corporal or els both spiritual also corporal HE. He doth take it to be both so do I. CA. As how HE. Euen as he doth here allege of S. Aust y t thei did eate maÌ„na and we an other thiÌ„g which thingê are both corporal wherein that same which thei did and we dooe eate is one spirituall meate And therfore that whiche thei did and we dooe eate is both spirituall and corporall CATH Thou plaiest Frith with me now in dede For my question is one and thou answerest me to an other I aske not of their corporall meate nor of ours nother whiche to them was and to vs is subiecte to the eie and other outwarde sences but I aske onely of the spirituall meate whiche was to them and is to vs as saint Austen saith all one and the same Therfore whether that be onely
wyne into the very flesh blood of our sauiour Christe at the time of the holy consecration therof the opinion of the prelates as though it were but their opinion and nothing els his owne wordes be these The cause why I can not he saieth beleue their opinion of transmutacion is this first because I thinke verily that it is false and can not bee proued by scripture nor feithful doctours if they be well pondered Here thou feest plain of his own wordes that he taketh this article to be vtterly false And yet he geueth vs libertee and leue to beleue it neuerthelesse as it may and doth well apere by this that he saiyng neither parte ought to dispise other will no more reprehende vs therin then he wolde that we shuld reprehende hym in the contrary For each he saith seketh the glory of god And therfore by that as I towld the before the one in a trew feith the other in a false for both can not be trew Wherfore beside this the very same which he doth here sai in plaine wordê that he thinketh verely to bee false he coÌ„fesseth it as plaine to be an article of our feith saiyng Though it be an article of our feith it is none of our Creede Therfore by this it is clere that although he denieth it an article of our crede yet he confesseth it an article of our faith HERE Ye but not necessary to be beleued the saith vnder payne of damnation CATH Whether it be vnder that paine or no yet an article of our feith as y e trewth is in dede he saith it is And therfore say I necessary to for els it were but vaine and superfluous which to beleue were shame vnto vs and disshonour to our feith that it shulde conteine any such thing HERE Sir now I perceiue that ye do not take this that Frith dooth say not necessary as he dooth meane it CATH How is that HERE He meaneth it for indifferent and nothing els for in the laste leafe of his boke saue one his woordes thereof be these I thinke many men wonder he saith how I can die in this article seying that it is no necessarie article of our feith I graunt that neither parte is an article necessary to bee beleued vnder paine of damnacion but leue it as a thinge indifferent to thinke therin as god shal instill in euery mans mynde and that neither part condemne other for this matter but each receiue other in brotherly loue Here you may perceiue that he meaneth by this worde not necessary nothing els but indifferencie CATH I can the thanke it is a place well place out wherin strife consider vpon what to quest he maketh his graunte And after that when he saieth I leue it as a thinge indifferente tell me what meaneth he by this same woorde it saiyng I leue it HERE He meaneth the same that goeth before when he saith neither parte is an article necessary c. CATH Then the sence of his words must nedes be this that he leaueth it that is to say neither parte as a thing indifferent wherfore if he leaue neither part as a thing indifferent then he leaueth both partes as thinges necessary if he leue them both as thinges necessary Then to vnderstande the best therof he leaueth the one parte necessarie to bee taken and the other as necessarie to be forsaken because the one is trew and the other false And therfore where is nowe his indifferencie become that thou speakest of or where is his principall purpose become but by this cleane ouerthrowne HERE I neuer herd one turne a mans tale as ye do CATH why so HERE Because ye haue brought it cleane out of his meaning and directly against the purpose he speaketh it for as it dooth well apere for ye maie bee suer he ment not so CA. How then HE. His meanyng is this that neither parte that is to say neither of both partes is an article necessary to be beleued vnder paine of damnation but each of them is to bee lefte as a thing indifferent to thinke therin as god shall instill in euery mans mynde CATH And is this his very meaning thinkest thou HERE It can bee none otherwise CATH Then this indifferencie he meaneth not to be of neither part But to be of both partê HERE What els CATH which both are they HE. Both his part and yours HERE His and ours are cleane contrary HERE That is plaine CATH And euen therfore so plaine is this that the one is trew and the other false HERE That can not be denied CATH Therfore this must nedes be graunted that here he leaueth plaine both trewth and falshed at libertee to bee taken or forsaken euen together indifferently and in the ende knitteth vp the knot with the request of a brotherly loue to bee had betwene them Wherfore hast thou herde of suche a stickler betwene trewth and falshed as this is who wolde venture so arduous a matter but he alone how be it his courage was suche that when he sawe betwene trewth and falshed that is to say betwene god and the diuell so great a controuersie as yet was neuer at reste he thinking therin to winne his spurres wold nedes as a man indifferent take vp the matter betwene them and make them shake handes with a brotherly loue But yet because his indifferencie was in this matter suche as did put no difference betwene those parties which are of so great and 〈◊〉 difference that is possible to be Goâ— wole therfore in no wife haue him of his side but refused him so cleane that he had ben yet as a masterlesse vacabâ—nd if he had not ben taken into seruice of the other side HERE What sir me thinke ye talke your pleasure now at large CATH In very deede no more at large then thoccasion therof doth iustly require for without question he was farre to parciall of the wrong side to supple trewth and falshed together with the straite narowe yoke of indifferencie he had forgotte the gospell wherin trewth it selfe doth say qui non est mecum contra me est That is to say he that is not with me is against me wherin we finde no meane alowed Neuerthelesse although it be impossible for this same with me and against me to ioygne together by any meane in bede yet Frith not therwith content wold nedes thrust in no lesse then euen indifferencie as a meane betwene them for all that and so couple them together according to his fantasie But how he sped withall somewhat thou feest and more thou shalte for what if I lay to his charge that he doth here impute vnto God thynstilling as well of falshed as of trewth into mens mindes HERE It shall not skyll what ye lay to his charge so ye proue it not in deede Cap. 28. CATH Let me see how thou canst herin defende him For doth he not say I leue it as a thing indifference to thinke