Selected quad for the lemma: authority_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	scripture_n	tradition_n	unwritten_a	2,327	5	12.8913	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78132	A defence of the lavvfulnesse of baptizing infants. As also of the present baptisme, as it hath continued in the severall ages of the world, from John Baptist the first beginner thereof. In way of answer to something written by Iohn Spilsberie against the same.	Barbon, Praisegod, 1596?-1679.	1645 (1645)	Wing B749; Thomason E270_12; ESTC R212355	60,304	74

that hath but common reason in him will see it is to no purpose at all But that other happily may stand him in stead and the scope of that is to declare the interest of Christs Church to all things according to the Scriptures direction alwaies provided And what then then people may make themselves the Church of Christ or pretend at least so to be and then they are so interessed forthwith in all things The Romish Church can make as large claim as they in this matter and speak as much for themselves surely if persons in earthly cases could do the like there would not be a few found in such claimes and pretences but they would by wise men be thought sitter for Bedlam then any place else In further answer I say that was spoken of the Church of Corinth and so is true of all other Churches gathered and instated by Christ in an orderly way by such means and instruments as had authority from him But what is this to persons that want this jnstating by such instruments in such a way Truly no more then it could for those that called themselves Jewes and were not or then it would have availed Rev. 3. 9. the Heathen of old to have injoyed the priviledges with the Jewes in Gods holy things in particular of building the Temple to whom it was told it was not for them to build c. It cannot be imagined that such large priviledges should according to due order Esr 4. 3. appertain to such the Scripture being wholly silent concerning their right It is but usurpation for such to challenge such a condition of being called to be Christs Church as it was in them that said they were Apostles and were not as these in like kinde are Rev. 2. 2. not the Churches of Christ rightly gathered and constituted whatever they pretend to be I suppose it will also appear to the Reader that this Scripture serveth nothing at all to purpose in the matter in hand But J. S. supposing to have made some proofe in the aforesaid matter saith that by vertue of this union they have with their head Christ the body thus joyntly considered hath the power and authority of Christ within themselves to chuse or make use of any one or more of her members as occasioa offers to administer Baptisme upon the whole body and so upon themselves in the first place as a part of the same This is the great conclusion drawn from the former premises but it is onely said for alas that before is no proofe at all of the matter what precept or example is there in the Scripture for the warrant of this certainly none at all for this is unwritten tradition and I dare say as pure popery as any can be for men thus to faine cases and then to give authority in such cases as the holy Scripture is altogether silent in But saith he further if any please to take his word for it such may be as truly said to be sent and authorized by Christ thus as of old by Christ in his humane body even so now in his divine and spirituall body that is this unbaptized company pretending to be a Church Now I marvell whether there be any so simple as to beleeve such doctrine as this that a company of unbaptized persons are Christs divine and spirituall body and that so as what they order persons to doe in the matter of ordinances in particular of Baptisme though it doe not concurre with the Scriptures is as true and reall a mission and as full authority as the holy Apostles had that were sent of Christ himselfe and beside that such high termes of divine and spirituall should be proper to this fained body and onely the term humane should belong to Christs person when he was manifest in the world it is sure very much and at least sheweth plainly how wonderfully hee is conceited of his owne Idea This strange doctrine he will prove by a reason thus Wheresoever a Church doth rise in her true constitution I aske from whence is this rising from the bottomlesse pit I never heard of Hierusalem Revel 19. 2. but comming down from heaven But Babylon and this little Teret of it may rise happily from the earth Againe in her true constitution I say it is likely to be a very true constitution without Baptisme There he saith are her ordinances Yes but in an orderly way they must be acted it is not for Saul to sacrifice But saith he there is power also to administer the same but sure not without right or lawfull instruments God is the God of Order But the 1 Cor. 14. 37. reason that killeth all dead before it and concludeth the matter fully is this That where a thing is wanting there must be of necessity a beginning to reduce the thing again into being this is the conclusion of all And is not J. S. come to a faire Haven after his sore travell and great hazzard Necessity hath no law But where is that due order and orderly way of seeking of God which he before spake of Truly it is a sad case that any by their erroneous judgement and following their own way should bring themselves into such a snare or straight and then plead necessity to doe that which is not lawfull for them and think necessity will beare them out Disobedient Saul by his evill course had brought himselfe into a great straight whereupon he adventured to doe that which did 1 Sam. 13. 12. not appertain to him to doe but for all he pleaded necessity it would not serve his turne for he was told by the Prophet from the Lord That hee had done foolishly and that to obey was better then sacrifice v. 13. Thus saith he I have shewed my judgement that if Baptisme be wanting where it is to be had namely in the holy Scriptures Secondly how from thence to be obtained by Gods calling an unbaptized people into an holy fellowship with Christ from whom though unbaptized they have power to assume as a Church so the Ordinance of Baptisme upon themselves Now courteous Reader this is the sum of the matter consider of it and see if it be not a faire judgement and well grounded and whether thou canst judge this to be any other then Popish divinitie which the Romanist can say in the like kind for their course for cannot they say as much for making Christs reall body in the Eucharist by hoc est corpus meum as these can say for making his divine and spirituall body as they call it for they pretend the Scriptures as these doe they assume to themselves such a state to be Christs Church and to have such power in what they doe even as these doe but truly as theirs is onely pretended and not reall Even so in like is this meerely faigned and not otherwise But he saith he will cleare up this matter Indeed it needs clearing for it is yet

very dark and smoakie this hee will doe by shewing the manner of the aforesaid Constitution in the causes of it How will he doe it in pag. 40. by saying over again what he had said again and again before namely that the Scriptures remaining in the place of the Apostles for us to have recourse unto and serve as the mouth of Christ Alas this is but a poore clearing for this is onely in a directive way as before I noted And what then The Scriptures being so truly nothing at all Yes saith he as the Apostles did before the Scriptures were written To which I say there were Scriptures before the Apostles to which the Apostles had an eye and regard and directed others to doe the like The holy Apostles they acted Ordinances of Religion preaching breaking bread and baptizing The Scripture acts nothing neither can they surely Act. 2. 42. this is a poore clearing we will minde the Scriptures hee here quoteth Matth. 28. 20. 2 Pet. 19. 20 21. Rom. 10. 6 7 8. In answer I will not tire my selfe and the Reader certainly no man can imagine any thing more then direction from that full and perfect rule of the Scriptures as gatherable from those places of Scripture which as before I said none deny let him but call to mind what he said of an orderly way which God requireth and how that is as he conceiveth by the Church and then let him tell mee if hee can to what purpose these Scriptures are or that which followeth that as the Lords people conferred with the Prophets and Apostles about their great affaires so have the Lords people now Moses and the Prophets Christ and his Apostles in their writings as Luk. 16. 29. And what then truly nothing it is but for direction as before nor yet that which further followeth in this clearing matter of the constituting causes which are saith he with the spirit of life in them as effectuall as their personall presence if not more Answ Stay a while the matter is sure otherwise for this effectuallnesse if it were granted is but directive But it is not wholly granted for that the Apostles were men inspired and sent of God to declare his will they were a saving meanes of good to men and God in his good pleasure as a double mercy gave his Word and sent his Apostles and Prophets sure I take it it must needs follow that if the Scriptures were as effectuall without the Apostles and rather more then with them then God gave the Apostles in vaine and the Churches were great losers by their personall presence but the truth is otherwise as is most manifest The Scripture with the Spirit of life in them act nothing but onely direct and furnish men how to act according to the will of God in an orderly way according to what hee holdeth For proofe of what before he affirmed of the effectualnesse of the Scripture he quoteth Joh. 6. 62. 2 Pet. 1. 18 19. Revel 11. 3 5 11. Answ That in John speaketh of Christ ascending where he was before how this should prove any thing is beyond my thoughts I will say nothing but leave the Reader to judge of it That place of Peter is of the sure direction of the Word in dark and our doing well to take heed to it That in the Revelation is of the two witnesses a thing too mysterious to be a proofe in this case I suppose J. S. will not hold himselfe to be one of those witnesses nor he with others of his way to be both those witnesses there spoken of I will say no more but leave the Reader to judge whether these Scriptures doe prove that the holy Scriptures with the Spirit of life in them as he is pleased to say are in stead of the Apostles personally sent of God with power to act ordinances or whether they in the case of the Ordinances dispensing in an orderly way are as much or more effectuall then the Apostles personally that were sent of Christ for that end who did not send the Scriptures as in the case of the Eunuch but Philip and in the case of Cornelius Peter as in those and the like instances may be seen He proceedeth and in full concluding of this matter saith and thus all succession what phrase have we here from the beginning came to Christ Of what speakes hee now of Ordinances I had thought all Ordinances had ever proceeded from him he being ever the Lord of the Church and sure he meaneth the Ordinances namely those ordained of old under Abraham and Moses and the Prophets these lasted continued to the coming of Christ into the world the substance indeed of those shadows so his sense may be good From Christ he saith to the Apostles from the Apostles to the Scriptures This is pure non-sense if I mistake not and beside I aske him where is that orderly way he told us of and how is the case now according to 1 Cor. 3. by him alleadged for the Authority of an unbaptized Church Doth he not by this discent seclude them from all rather then inright them to any such authorite happily he will say Oh from the Scriptures to us very good But first how from Christ to the Apostles Did Christ our Lord preferre the Apostles before his beloved Spouse for whom he gave himselfe I alwayes took the Apostles as the servants of the Church for Christs sake Secondly did the Ordinances 2 Cor. 4. 5. proceed from Christ to the persons of the Apostles or to their office as Apostles So as when they in regard either of person or office left the world it descended to the Scripture certainly the right and interest of the Scriptures was the same before the death and cessation of the Apostles as after and the Scriptures gained no legacie by such friends unlesse a sealing to the truth and full authority of their direction so from the Scriptures to us a wonderfull matter a very fair Ring from the Scriptures to the Scriptures and so to us just nothing but a shew of words without matter Further he saith That all succession is now spirituall So it seemeth he holdeth it was carnall before when it was from Abraham to Moses from Moses to Christ and the Apostles and so to the Scriptures and now it is from the Scriptures to us it is spirituall a rare conceit He saith it is now according to faith whether he mean faith of miracles or what else is hard to say but it mattereth not much for he is beside the Scriptures and walking in some other field It followeth not saith he the personall succession of any but onely the Word of God Answ Sure J. S. speaketh in a strange tongue he is never able to make out his sense that succession follows the Word the Word being immoveable and that which abideth for ever and hath no place for succession though he thus speaketh he know not what And the word of God he saith

matter and clean out in this first Notion Second Notion And for succession of truth truth of Ordinances you must understand It comes now by the promise of God and faith of his people whom he as aforesaid hath taken out of the world to the fellowship of the Gospel Answ Setting aside succession and in stead thereof putting in continuation What can be more right then this though not in J. S. his sense The truth of Ordinances continues by vertue of Gods promise made to his people they continuing to beleeve in him and not forgetting his name though many times greatly failing against him as of old yet the truth of Ordinances continue namely the Church and Baptisme now as the Church and Circumcision did of old and this by the promise of God J. S. hath no such sense as this but some inward familisticall sense of inward faith and Gods promise to such secret beleevers which he is never able to make out any such thing that the truth of Ordinances depends upon them in regard of continuation by vertee of the promise of God to them in such a secret way Third Notion To whom the Ordinances of Christ stand only by succession of faith What faith outward or inward and not of persons What faith severed from persons Answ I would fain know what any rationall man can make of this either in it self or as it hath relation to what is before declared Fourth Notion For the same power the Apostles had in former time for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures have in the hand of Christ as the head of the Church which make up but one body 1 Cor. 12. 12. Answ such power for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures had of old when the Apostles lived Some other things J. S. aimeth at but the truth prevaileth and the words he here useth will nothing avail namely of the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the Church It s worth observing how the Church is here couched just after the manner of the Babylonians that pretend their Church is inspired with the Holy Ghost and cannot erre for Christ the head is in Heaven and hath left his Word for direction in godlinesse for his Church to take heed unto Now the holy Apostles had authority to act Ordinances according to Christs command they were to preach pray break bread and baptize the Scriptures were not sent neither act they any thing as before So as in J. S. his sense it is utterly untrue that the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the body have the same power to act Ordinances as the Apostles had Notion fift and last So as what the Apostles and Church together might do in acting Ordinances you must understand the same may the head and body together with the Scriptures do now Reader observe how J. S. coucheth subtilly his unbaptized Church betwixt Christ and the Scriptures so as Christ being in heaven and the Scriptures only directive the whole matter for action will fall into the hands of the Church A contrivance as fine as the Papist found out when they were sore put to it by John Hus and the Bohemians and not able to defend themselves and their courses against the truth they invented and abetted this That holy Church could not erre Secondly observe how I. S. quitteth two of these three namely the head and body and concludeth laying all the stresse upon the Scriptures and so in effect saith nothing at all the Scriptures being only directive for saith he the Scriptures have the same whereas he should have said the head and body with the Scriptures have it Thirdly observe what a preposterous conjunction I. S. maketh of three in the matter of fact one of which to wit Christ the head is in Heaven who though he hath fulnesse of power acts not here below but in a providenciall and ministeriall way and the like The Church the second Christs wife is in all things to be obedient to Christ her husband his will and pleasure contained in the Scripture the Scriptures they act not but only direct where is I. S. now just where he was at the first and no further Fourthly this is utterly untrue which he concludeth that what the Church and the Apostles the Ministers of the Churches might do that the Scriptures he quitteth the head and body as before may do Now what might not the Church and the Apostles do in ordinances and administration orderly according to God what can the Scriptures act truly nothing at all their authority is only directive I suppose any one may see how far out I. S. is in these conceits In the close he is up again with revelation which happily if he did study and cleave unto would stand him in more stead then the Scriptures that are so helplesse to him in his cause CHAP. IV. Containing a defence of the opinion of them that hold no right or orderly Ministeriall Church without or before Baptisme I. S. Having ended his former matter against the Churches continuance and likewise the continuance of Baptisme under the popish defection proceeds saying And so we come to such as will have no Church before Baptisme and so make Baptisme the form of the Church Answ Who these such are that he intendeth I cannot tell they are either some of his own way or some other some of his own way do indeed so hold that Baptisme constitutes or is the form of the Church Did I think he intended them I should leave them to try it out and should not intermeddle with the strife I shall only as the matter relates to them shew my thoughts briefly namely that they will be too hard for J. S. in the tenent he himself being of their belief but that he is not true to his owne principle otherwise how should he without Schisme and being a Schismatick leave the reformed and separated Churches and set up another of his own as he hath done only he accounteth them no Churches of Christ and what is the reason he doth so nothing but his Baptisme is wanting so as that must be the form that gives being for otherwise They are companies of Saints professing faith in the righteousnesse of Christ and living accordingly that is in holynesse of life This he describeth to be the matter and the form he declareth to be their being united and knit together in one fellowship or orderly body and that is the Covenant of grace by which God becomes not visibly as he unawars saith but in an outward way of relation a God unto them and they become visibly his people Now what is there to hinder J. S. from being a Schismatick by his own ground for surely nothing hinders those Churches which he forsaketh and disclaimeth as no Churches of Christ by all or any thing that in his description of the matter or form of the Church by him set down can be found and let him take in his five Reasons to help him if he