speake Aut verò congregatione synodi opus erat vt aperta pernicies damnaretur quasi nulla haeresis aliquando nisi Synodi congregatione damnata sit cum potius rarissimae inveniantur propter quas damnandas necessitas talis extiterit multoque sint atque incomparabiliter plures quae vbi extiterunt illic improbari damnarique meruerunt atque indè per caeteras terras devitandae innotescere potuerunt Was it necessarie a Councell should be gathered to condemne open mischiefes as if no heresie had beene condemned without a Councell whereas very few are found for the condemning of which there hath bin such necessitie and there are without comparison moe which deserued to be condemned where they did spring vp that being so condeÌ„ned they might be made known vnto other countries Out of this testimonie I gather these two things first that it may be an heresie though not condemned by a Councell secondly I gather that in Augustines time there were few heresies for the condemning of which Councells were gathered together To proceede You say whosoeuer were condemned by Councells confirmed by the See Apostolicall were euer deemed and indeede were heretikes What say you to Cyprian De vnico lap cap. 14. whom as Augustine reporteth Stephanus Bishop of Rome censuit excommunicandum esse deemed to be excommunicated 8. book 4 chap. Bellar. lib. 2. de con cap. 5. Eusebius saith that scripsit vniuersis conterminis gentibus he wrote to all countries that were neare that he would not communicate with them because they did rebaptize heretikes Was Cyprian either an heretike or of that minde that whatsoeuer the Pope did condemne was heresie why did he not then yeild to Stephanus who was Pope For I thinke you meane by the See Apostolike the Pope otherwise you condemne Eugenius who saide as Aeneas Sylvius reporteth that tantum aebest vt generalibus Concilijs debeat obedire vt se dicat tunc maximè mereri cum concilij decreta contemnit It is so farre from him that he should obey generall Councells that he doth then best deserue when he doth contemne the decrees of the same But I reduce your Argument into a syllogisme They which are condemned by the Councell of Trent are heretikes But the Protestants are condeÌ„ned by the Councell of Trent Ergo they are heretikes I denie the proposition for it is against all reason that they which are parties that are partiall that are accused should be the onely iudges Augustine saith Solis Canonicis scriptis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum I ought to consent onely to the Canonicall scriptures without any refusall De nâ—t grat â— Nicolaus de Clemangijs writeth that Ecclesia quandoque contraria determinat the Church doth sometimes determine contraries in Fas vâ—ta ex Againe Trita regula est ecclesia militans fallit fallitur it is an old rule the Church militant doth deceiue and is deceiued Gregorie his speach who saith that he doth reuerence the foure first Councells as the foure Gospels de alijs suspitionem in animis hominum relinquit leaueth a suspition in the minds of men of other Councels Saith the same man the councell of Neocaesaria condemned second marriages this is not confessed by Bellarmine in his tractate of councells least he should graunt that Councells may erre But in his first booke of marriage and 17. chap. he writeth that Concilium tractat de secundis nuptijs qua contrabuntur mortua priore vxore the Councell doth entreat of second marriages which are made the former wife beeing dead Hence I thus conclude That Councell which condemneth second marriages erreth but this Councell condemneth second marriages ergo And touching your Tridentine conuenticle why doe not your men stand to the decrees of the same Arias Montanus reiecteth the bookes from the bodie of the holy bible which we doe Catharin teacheth that a man may be certen of grace yet these opinions are condemned in your chapter of Trent if we beleeue Bellarmine Againe if your chapter of Trent teacheth rightly of originall sinne why doth the same Catharin teach that it is nothing els but Adams actuall transgression and disobedience Noli esse tam iniustus be not so vnequall M. Doctour to binde vs with your councell of Trent when your owne men dissent from the same Where you say that we shall vtterly vanish away because we haue no head to gather a generall Councell I acknowledge you to be a false and no true prophet We see the fall of Babylon daily more and more and the madnesse of them that seeke to vphold her daily more and more manifest You say also that we receiue fixe Councells â—hem Act. 15. yet your fellows maruell that we attribute much to the foure first and nothing to the rest it were good for you to agree amongst your selues before you charge vs with errour Lastly the libertie of our Gospel is such as Gods word doth teach 1â— epist ego saith Augustine solis eis scripturarum libris I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour onely to the canonicall Scriptures that no author of them can erre The 10. reason Fathers The Doctour in the beginning of this chap. proijcit ampullos casteth out loftie and arrogant words after this manner The Catholike Romane religion is most plainly taught by all the ancient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixt hundred yeares and hath beene euer without controuersie taught of the fathers of euery age since vntill this day This proud bragge I haue disprooued before by many testimonies and now by Gods helpe I will make it manifest to boyes Theophilus Alexandrinus is plaine against traditions in his 2. paschal sermon he writeth thus Daemoniaci est spiritus instinctus aeliquid extra scripturarum authoritatem putare divinum it is the instinct of a deuillish spirit to thinke any thing diuine without authoritie of scriptures what spirits then haue Papists but deuillish spirits who fight for their trash of traditions Caesarius is as plaine for reading of the Scriptures in his 20. homilie he taketh away the excuse commonly vsed for not reading the same Nemo dicat non mihi vacat legere Let no man say I am not at leisure to read the Scriptures Inanis invtilis est excusatio ista this excuse is vaine and vnprofitable Marke the Eremite hath written a booke against those which thinke to be iustified by works in which booke this notable sentence is extant Regnum coeloruÌ„ non est merces operuÌ„ sed gratia domini fidelibus servis praeparata the kingdome of heauen is not the wages of workes but the grace of God prepared for faithfull seruants In his booke de baptisme of baptisme he teacheth the same Mandata ipsa non tellunt peccatum hoc enim per solam crucem factum est sed donata nobis libertatis limites custodiunt The commandements take not away finne for that is done onely by the
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
and the merit of his passion beeing content with one of them himselfe giueth the other to me I wish all Papists and Monkes for their saluation sake were of Bernards minde and I thinke this is to recant Monachisme for Monkes looke for saluation by their merits and workes Lib. 2. de grat c. 15. I will set downe that excellent place of Luke with Bellarmines glosse vpon it Feare not little flocke it is your fathers pleasure to giue you a kingdome Verbum complacuit nomen pater vocubula illa pusillus grex indicant gratiam non Justitiam The word it pleaseth the nowne father and these words little floke shewe grace not iustice Thus the kingdome of heauen is an inheritance giuen vs of our Father not deserued by vs. The last lie is some Protestants affirme the Fathers to haue thought otherwise then they wrote this is true of Papists For the Rhemists beeing pressed with Chrysostomes authoritie for the reading of Scriptures by Laymen say that he spake as e pulpit mā and not as a teacher belike pulpit men speake not that which they thinke Let the Reader then iudge whether you say the Fathers spake as they thought or no. For further triall of this I referre the Reader to that which I haue alleadged out of Bellarmine concerning the Fathers in the Reason of Fathers Hierom in his apologie to Paumichius saith that some things are spoken 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for exercise sake and other things for opinions sake ergo the fathers spake not all things dogmatically but some things rhetorically Nazianzen also biddeth his chaire farewell The rest of the chapter concerneth Luther whose speeches haue beene somewhat vehement but not knowing the reason which he might haue to vse such I can neither absolue him nor condemne him for them I will now set downe popish lies I begin with the Doctors in the first chapter he saith that in England it is manifest that all were Papists without exception from the first christening thereof vntil this age of King Henrie the eight This as I haue proued is a famous lie witnesse Wickliffe who liued in England and yet was he no papist The second lie is that hereticks haue euer taken their names of some one who began that heresie this is a lie for some heretickes as the Catharists are called of their sect and not of the author The third lie is in the third chapter the Catholikes haue euer kept vnitie and concord in such a peaceable manner as neuer any one in England or Ireland dissented or disagreed in any point of doctrine from him which liued in the vtmost parts of the East This is such a lie as needeth no manifestation of it Yet I will name one point more then I haue before Hart. Some papists in England held that the Pope may depose Princes others denie it The fourth lie is in the same chapter where he saith that all decrees of lawfull Councels and Popes doe agree in all points of doctrine one with another This I haue prooued a lie Fiftly in the 5. chapter he saith that all countreies which euer beleeued in Christ were first cōuerted to his faith by such as were either precisely sent or at the least wise had their authoritie from the Pope who liued in the time in which they were conuerted This I haue prooued a lie Sixtly in the same chapter he saith that Iesuites are executed in England onely in regard of their sacred function which to be a lie their owne bookes can testifie besides the confession of Papists Seauenthly in the fift reason he belieth M. Caluin calling him a Sere backt priest for Sodomie For I will omit the lie of persecution onely in England in the same chapter Eightly in the tenth chapter he saith that Catholike Romane religion is taught by all the auntient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixe hundred yeares Ninthly in the 13. chap. he saith that we meddle litle with restitution of goods but leaue all at large to our followers without restraint of any such crime 10. In the same chapter he saith the Protestant teacheth the landlord to doe what he listeth with his own 11 In the same place he saith that we teach not reward of good and bad life in the world to come which all men can testifie to be a lie although we disclaime the merit of good works yet we teach the merit of sinne 12 In the 14. Reason he saith that we denie the perpetuall virginitie of Marie which is an vntruth In the 15. Reason he hath many lies first that we haue nothing but a number of pelting obiections taken out of Caluins Institutions or out of the Magdebursens or some hereticall pamphlet Secondly he saith that we trouble our selues with nothing but with the controuersies of this time Thirdly that Protestants doe scarce vnderstand the tearmes of learned sciences which others doe fully possesse Fourthly he saith that the Clergie in Queene Maries time was more learned then now it is Fiftly he saith that the most learned Doctor of them all is vtterly ignorant of schoole diuinitie Sixtly he saith that the Protestant neuer medleth with cases of conscience but fraighteth his ship onely with faith and neuer beateth his braine about sinnes In the sixteenth Reason he saith that all the ministers nowe are naught yea he asketh in the same chap. what woman is nowe married without touch of her honestie I will gather no moe lies out of this Doctor I will set downe some out of other Papists The Rhemists vpon the sixt of Luke write that Protestants are wont to say All is very easie which is a lie Againe say they the Protestants thinke that to burne is to be tempted onely which is a lie 1. Cor. 7. Thirdly vpon the 9. chap. of the first epist of Paul to the Cor. they say that protestants will not haue men worke well in respect of reward at Gods hands which is a lie I desire thee Christian reader to read the Rhemists annotatiōs where thou shalt finde many slaunders but I delight not in these things Bellarmine affirmeth that Caluin maketh God the author of fin againe he saith that Caluin holdeth that the saints departed are not blessed he saith also that he died calling vpon the deuill which are monstrous lies Genebrard accuseth Caluin of errour in saying that the sonne of God is God of himselfe Bellarmine defendeth Caluine against Genebrard nowe let euery man iudge of this syllogisme They which are lyars are of a false religion But the Papists are lyars ergo Christian reader I would not haue vsed this tearme of lying so often but that I haue beene vrged by the Doctor For railing I referre thee to M. Hardings workes as also to Doctor Stapletons writings against M. Doctor Whitakers in which thou maist see the spirit of papists The 20. reason Keeping in memorie Gods benefits That the memorie of Gods benefits is carefully to
Gregorius Dyonisius saith Picus Mirandula discordant circa ordines angelorum Gregorie and Dyonisius disagree about the order of angels If Gregorie dissenteth from him why may not Luther doe so Who so desireth to read more of this Dyonisius may be referred to Erasmus and Valla. That the Protestants raile at the fathers it must be numbred amongst the Doctours vntruths but by Protestants this man meaneth the Puritans forsooth although this odious name of Puritanes agreeth better to Papists August haeres 38. who doe so stand vpon their puritie because they can keepe all Gods commandements Yet know not I any so called that raile at all the fathers But here it is to be noted euen by his owne confession that the Protestant defend the fathers against the Puritanes therefore they raile not at them Thus M. Doctour you hardly know what you write you are so egerly carried against the Protestants somewhat ye would say but yet know not well how to vtter your minde We acknowledge the fathers to haue had excellent wits to haue studied and praied continually yet doe we not deifie them neither doe we account their writings canonicall scripture as Augustine speaketh of Cyprian lib. 2. cont Cres cap. 32. Where you call the Protestants foolish vnstudied vnlearned prophane and arrogant fellowes you bewray your vaine spirit Vascula inania maximè tinniunt the emptiest vessells make the greatest sound Of your learning we shall speake more hereafter in the meane time I would haue you to know that constat plures Papaâ— adeò illiteratos fuisse vt Grammaticam penitus ignorarent Alphon. l. 1. c. 4. it is certenly knowne that sundrie Popes haue bin so vnlearned that they neuer vnderstood their Grammar You say further that Protestants are giuen to lust ambition gluttonie and couetousnes If for Protestants you had named Papists it had bin a true saying For as your owne man Coster confesseth Plarique Catholici feris ac bellumis moribus blasphemiae causam prabent infidelibus many Catholikes or Papists beeing of sauage and beastly manners and behauiour doe cause Infidels to blaspheme But more also of this in another place If the Centuriators and Calvine haue noted some errours in some of the fathers it is no more then Papists haue done The Rhemists renounceth Augustines exposition vpon the 16. of Matthew Bellarmine in his first booke de sancto beat and 6. chap. saith that Iustinus Epiphanius Ireneus and Oecumenius cannot be defended Againe Ambrose Hilarie and Nissen are reiected of him cap. 4. lib. 2. de rel To proceede he holdeth that Adam was not deceiued Lib. 3. de Amiss grat cap. 7. yet communis patrum sententia id videtur habere vt Adam fuerit seductus the fathers common opinion seemeth to be that Adam was seduced Hierome agreeth not with the fathers concerning the buriall of Adam Bell. lib. 3. de amiss grat cap. 12. Theodoret expoundeth some places of scripture as the Pelagians-doe Bellar. lib. 4. de amiss grat cap. 9. The fathers before Pelaguis did not accurately handle the doctrine of predestination Bellar. lib. 2. de grat lib. arb c. 11. Lastly not to be too tedious cap. 14. eiusdem lib. he saith that patres cum ad populum verba facerent ea dicebant quae vtiliora videbantur ad excitandos homines ad bona opera The fathers when they did speake to the people vttered those things which were most profitable to stirre vp the people to good workes For thy further satisfaction Christian Reader I desire thee but to read Bellarmines exposition of the Lords praier and tell me how the fathers doe agree euen in expounding that one praier Their diuersitie also in expounding this article He sitteth on the right hand of God is worthie to be considered Bellar. lib. 3. de Incar cap. 15. M. Doctour Humfrie his spech of that famous and reuerend Bishop Iewell beeing iniurious to himselfe is vttered in respect of his great paines and not to detract from the truth of his challenge if you can confute his booke set vpon it if you cannot neuer hereafter bragge of the fathers For indeede it is no small meanes to confirme the Protestants in their cause that his bookes haue not beene answered in so long a time you crie the fathers the fathers are on your sides and yet haue not satisfied M. Iewel his challenge in many yeares I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which condemne the fathers of errors hold a false religion But the Protestants condemne the fathers of errors Ergo. To this argument let Augustine answer Si divinarum scripturarum earum scilicet quae in Ecclesiae canonicae nominantur perspicua aliquid firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est â—pist 112. alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat if any thing be confirmed by euident authoritie of those Scriptures which are called Canonicall in the Church we must beleeue it without any doubting but other witnesses or testimonies by which some thing to be beleeued is perswaded thou maist beleeue or not beleeue I might abound with his testimonies I will adioyne one other Neque quorumlibet disputationes quamvis catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut scripturas habere debemus epist 1â—1 vt nobis non liceat salva honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in corum scriptis improbare aut respondere We ought not to account any mens disputations although catholike and laudable men as the scriptures as if it were not lawfull for vs the honour which is due vnto them reserued to disalow and reiect something in their writings Picus Mirandula in his Apologie prooueth that in dictis sanctorum extra canonem bibliae non est infallibilis veritas in the sayings of Saints without the canon of the bible there is not infallible truth The Papists themselues refuse the fathers Pucichius saith Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re definitio Iâ—â—l 548. I like not S. Augustines determination of that point namely originall sinne Epiphanius is reiected for breaking images by D. Harding Cyprian is condemned by Duraeus because he teacheth that onely Christ is to be heard But that we may see all the fathers to be on your side M. Doctour produce I pray if you can their testimonies to prooue that the Pope cannot erre that he may depose Princes that he must summon Councells and that he is aboue the same or that the virgin Marie was not conceiued in original sinne I haue desired to see these points prooued by all the fathers if you can doe it you shall doe more then your owne men haue done By these new opinions we may gather that Poperie did beginne by degrees and hath encreased to this height These doctrines although they concerne the head of your church are so weakely prooued by the fathers that a man would imagine you doe not hold these