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authority_n	prove_v	scripture_n	tradition_n	2,732	5	9.6275	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01304	A confutation of a popishe, and sclaunderous libelle in forme of an apologie: geuen out into the courte, and spread abrode in diuerse other places of the realme. VVritten by VVilliam Fulke, Bacheler in Diuinitie, and felowe of S. Ihons Colledge in Cambridge.	Fulke, William, 1538-1589.; Feckenham, John de, 1518?-1585, attributed name.	1571 (1571)	STC 11426.2; ESTC S120640	88,715	248

is your blasphemous doctrine that me doe moste abhorre and your Ceremonies we hate the more for your doctrines sake You should therefore stande to the defence of your doctrine and not fight so egerly for your Ceremonies if you would vse good pollicie Nowe for these obseruations I haue aunswered before sufficiently by whiche as by the reste of myne answeres I truste it shall appeere to euery manne of indifferente iudgemente that notwithstandyng all your twentie argumentes of bothe sortes our Churche hath suche conformitie and agremente with the primitiue Churche of Christe that she maie bee truely compted a member of the same and partaker in the communion of all the sainctes of God. The Papiste Of what force streingth and estimatiō those thinges are of whiche haue been vsed in christes catholike churche it shal appeare by these testimonies of sainct Augustine followyng The aunswere Before you had spoken of the force of those matters you should haue doen well to haue considered the force of your argumentes whiche howe stronge so euer those thinges bee are to weake to proue that whiche you propounde namely that our Churche hath none agreaunce at all with the Primitiue Churche of Christe But seyng you will needes sette for the dignitie of these matters wee will seuerally consider all these fower argumentes The Papiste Firste sainct Augustine writyng againste the Donatistes saieth looke what thinges the vniuersall church of christe obserue and hath at all tymes obserued if the same bee not ordeined by any generall counsell thē it ought most firmely to be beleued that it came to vs onely by the auctoritie and tradition of the Apostles The aunswere Although I knowe what to thinke of vnwritten Traditions yet if you bee able to proue that al these thinges wherof you speake the vniuersall Churche of Christ doeth and hath alwaies obserued I will yelde to you that thei are the Tradition of the Apostles accordyng to your testimonie whiche if you canne not doe as I am well assured you will neuer bee able to dooe it by your owne reason and aucthoritie we neede not holde theim for Traditions of the Apostles nor yet decrees of generall Counsailes The Papiste Second sainct Augustine in hys Epistle ad Casulanum saieth how in all these thinges whereof the Scriptures hath made no certeine determination the maner of the people of god ▪ or decrees of our elders must be taken and holden as a lawe to gouerne our selues and in the same Epistle he maketh mention how the Sondaie because it is not fasted whiche fastyng is a Sacrifice acceptable to God ▪ Therefore saieth he the Sondaie maie not bee celebrated and kepte without an other Sacrifice whiche is acceptable to God. The aunswere The Scripture hath determined of all necessarie articles of faithe and againste all superstitious opinions and Ceremonies And these thynges you speake of we proued to bee suche therefore in theim by Saincte Augustines rule neither the custome of people nor the decrees of elders muste take place but the aucthoritie of Goddes woorde But of suche thynges as bee variable Ceremonies for edification order and comelinesse sake diuers particuler Churches maie make particuler decrees whiche are nothyng preiuditiall to the vniuersall Churche of Christ whiche is the principall argumente that saincte Augustine handeleth in that 86. Epistle to Casulanus where he defendeth the custome of the moste parte of the Churche againste the custome of the Churche of Rome As I haue touched before whiche thyng of you will in no wise bee allowed And as concernyng the Sacrifice he speaketh of to bee celebrated on Sondaie he meaneth not the propiciatorie Sacrifice of the Masse as perhaps you would seme to inferre But the celebration of the communion for thus he writeth in the same Epistle against Vrbicus Dicit cessisse pani pecus tanquam nesciens tunc in domini mensa panes propositionis poni solere nunc se de agni immaculati corpore partem sumere dicit cessisse poculo sanguinem nō cogitans etiam nunc se accipere in poculo sanguinem He saith that the Shepe hath giuen place to the breade as though he were ignoraunt that then also the Shewbread was vsed to bée sette on the Lordes boarde and that now also he taketh parte of the bodie of the immaculate Lambe he saieth that bloodde hath giuen place to the Cuppe not consideryng that now also he receiueth bloode in the Cuppe These woordes declare bothe that the Sacrifice was nothyng but the Communion and also that the wine is none otherwise called bloodde then the bread is called a lambe and that the bread in nature and substaunce is suche as was the Shewbreade in whiche was no transubstantiation and thirdely the necessitie of the Communion in both kindes if this analogie of Augustine must stande wherfore sainct Augustine in this Epistle maketh little for your purpose The Papiste Thirde saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium saieth that the thinges whiche we doe obserue throughout the whole worlde beyng not written but deliuered vnto vs either from the Apostles or generall counselles the aucthoritie wherof is notable and as of theim receiued ought to be obserued as the yerely remembrance and feastes of the passion of Christe of his ascention into heauen and of the cōmyng of the holy ghost whiche are celebrate in the Churche of Christe or any other like thing whiche is vniuersally obserued from whatsoeuer it first came fro and therefore saieth sainct Augustine in the same Epistle to reason or dispute why the same thinge ought to be obserued whiche of long tyme hath been obserued throughout the whole world by the auctoritie of christes church insolentissima insania est it is a poincte saieth he of extreme madnes And therfore saieth saincte Aug. the chaunge made of so long a custome yea though the same shoulde be verie profitable yet by the newnes thereof it doeth vexe and trouble the Churche of Christe it is made vnprofitable vnfruictful and finally hurtfull to the church of christ and for an example therof he doth there alledge how the disciples of christ did receiue the body and blood of christe not fastinge but after supper is the vniuersall church of christe therefore to be reproued or the custome therof to be chaunged whereby wee do in the same receiue the body and blood of christe fastyng and that for a more reuerence therunto in preferryng the foode of the soule before the foode of the bodie doubtles so for to doe it shoulde bee after the minde of Augustine both hurtfull vnto the churche of christ and a greate ponct of madnesse The aunswere This testimonie in effecte is the same with the former Sainct Augustin would haue suche Traditions as haue alwaies been vsed in the Churche to bee supposed that either thei came from the Apostles or from the generell Counsailes but here wee haue diligently to consider that wée admitte not all suche thynges as are called Traditions but onely suche as are

Basile affirmeth that it was a tradition of the Apostles that who so euer did not so he shoulde be deposed therfore wheras our reformatours doe but sprincle a little water in the foreheade of the partie baptized it may be quickly espied that thei follow not the primitiue churche The aunswere Our sauiour Christ commaundeth vs to Baptise in the name of the Father and of the Soonne and of the holie Ghoste whiche whether it bée by dippyng the bodie into the water or by powryng water vpon the bodie the misticall signification of washyng is sufficiently expressed and so longe the Baptisme is right as for the nōber of dippinges is nothyng materiall We read in the scriptures diuers formes of washing The Eunuche was Baptised by Philip goyng in naked into a Riuer or Brooke And so Baptised Ihon in Iordan Other that were Baptised in their houses it is moste like that water was powred on them as Cornelius and them that were with hym And the keper of the prison with his housholde Actes xvj And as for the Ceremonie of thrise dippyng although it was vsed of many to signifie the Trinitie yet was it not generall nor of any necessitie For in the fowerth Counsaile of Toledo it was determined that all was one whether a childe were Baptized with three dippynges or with one alone And yet it was there decreed vpon a good consideration that in Spaine thei should vse but one dippyng The woordes are these in the fowerth Counsaile Toletane and the fiueth Canone Ne tamen haereticis videamur consentire qui tertio mergum dum eorum morem seruamus cautum est ne in Hispaenia fiat baptismus nisi in vna mersione that is to saie Least we should seme to agree with heretikes whiche vse to dippe thrise while wee reteine their maner of baptisyng it is decreed that no Baptisme in Spaine bee ministered but with one onely dippyng In this decree of the Coūsaile twoo thynges especially are to bee noted Firste that the three dippynges was not alwaies and in all places obserued as a necessarie matter and therefore your argumente is fallen to the grounde Secondely that it is profitable to alter and chaunge suche Ceremoeies as are vsed of heretikes that wee seme not to agree with theim in any thyng in whiche it is lawful for vs to disagree And for this consideration doe we refuse to dip thrise because we would not seme to agrée with you whiche are heretikes although wee acknowledge that of it self it is a thyng indifferente to dippe twise or thrise or ones or not at al to dip but onely to poure on water in signe of that spirituall ablution whiche is represented by that Sacramente of Baptisme Wherefore you haue a verie quicke sight that can espie a knotte in a Rushe and of so small a gnat to make so great an Elephante as though all Christianitie stoode in thrise dippyng of a child in Baptisme whiche I haue proued not onely not to haue been alwaies obserued but also by decree of a Counsaill to haue been expressely forbidden Which Ceremonie although it bee noumbred emong the canons commonly called of the Apostles yet hath he a meane iudgement in antiquitie that can not descerne theim from Apostolike writynges But because you bryng in the Tradition of the Apostles you muste nedes giue me leaue to presse you with the same aucthoritie and to shewe that you your self obserue not the Traditions of the Apostles In the vj. Canon of the Apostles it is commaunded that no Bishoppe Prieste nor Deacon shall put awaie his wife vnder colour of religion and thei that doe so shall be excomunicate And in the ninthe and tenthe Canons it is decreed that whosoeuer is presente at the Communion and dooeth not communicate that he should bee excommunicate How these Canons of the Apostles if you will needes haue them so called be obserued in your Popishe Clergie and your priuate Masse what nede I to rehearse And yet you agree with the primitiue Churche in all thynges and we haue none agreaunce therewith at all The Papiste Thirde in the Primitiue churche they vsed Oyle and Chrisma in the ministratiō of diuers Sacramentes which christ hymselfe did ordaine and sainctifie the night before his passion as witnesseth S. Cypriane And his Apostles did commende the same vnto the Churche by their traditions as witnesseth sainct Basile and S. Augustine whiche these our reformatours will none of The aunswere In the Primitiue Churche there was not so many diuerse Sacramentes as you speake of but onely the Sacramente of Baptisme and of the bodie and bloode of christe and in neither of these was there any institution or vsage of oile chrisme And although in the later tyme ceremonies increased that oyle was vsed in baptisme yet was there not so many Sacramentes for Augustine saieth vnto Ianuaerius Epis. 118. Vnde Sacramentis numero paucissimis obseruatione facillimis significatione praestantissimis ▪ societatem noui populi colligauit sicut est Baptismus Trinitatis nomine consecratus communicatio corporis Christi sanguinis ipsius si quid aliud in scripturis canonicis cōmendatur Wherfore saieth Augustine God hath bounde the societie of his newe people with Sacramentes in number fewest in obseruation easiest in significatiō most excellent as is baptisme consecrated in the name of the Trinitie the communion of the bodie and blood of Christe and if any thing els be commended in the Canonicall scriptures The same Augustine and Chrisostome also vpon the water and blood that issued out of Christes side do gather that the Sacramentes of the church flowed out of his side namely Baptisme and the Supper of the lord Aug. Hom. in Ioann 20. Chrysostom ad Neophytos Augustine also in the thirde booke de doctrina christiana Cap. 9. rehearseth but these twoo Sacramentes speakyng of those that are properly called Sacramentes for otherwise both he and other auncient writers extende the name of Sacrament to al ceremonies And yet Gregorie accompteth washyng of feete to be a Sacramente as Baptisme and the Supper whiche is no sacramente with you And as for the ceremonie of annointyng in baptisme it is as lawfull for vs to abrogate as for you to omitte the drinke of milke and Honie after baptisme other such ceremonies which you knowe were vsed as well as oyle and Chrisme But our Sauiour Christe the night before his Passion did ordeine and sanctifie Oyle and Chrisme for suche purposes I meruaile what Cipriane dare be so bolde to affirme it séeyng the Euangelistes make no mention thereof and here againe if you hadde noted the place of Cipriane wee might better haue considered of his aucthoritie Diuerse writinges are set forth in his name whiche were neuer any of his workes The Papiste Fowerth S. Basile saieth that all determiminations and instructions which are preached and kepte in the Primitiue churche of Christe we haue receiued theim partely of the scriptures and partly by the traditions of the Apostles whiche both hath

vniuersally and haue been alwaies vsed in the Churche Secondely that thei bee not contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles conteined in the holie scriptures for then it is moste certaine thei are no Traditions of the Apostles for thei did not deliuer one thyng in writyng and a contrary thyng in Tradition Thirdly that whatsoeuer Tradition of the Apostles is not conteined in the scriptures although wee knewe it came from the Apostles it is lawfull vpon good consideration to alter it For seyng that all necessarie matters are conteigned in the scriptures whatsouer thei deliuered whiche is not conteined in the scriptures was but temporall might be chaunged aswell as the decree De sanguine et suffocato of blood strangled And that we ought not to receiue whatsoeuer is commended to vs as a Traditiō of the Apostles maie appere by these exāples Irenaeus was a manne that liued nere to the age of the Apostles for he sawe as he hymself doeth testifie Polycarpus the disciple of sainct Ihon. And he declareth that it was a Tradition commonly receiued in Asia as of sainct Ihon the Apostle and of other of the Apostles that our sauiour Christe liued fiftie yeres whiche is contrary to the truthe of the Gospell Irenaeus libri 2. Cap. xxxv If suche a fable could bee credited for an Apostolike Tradition so sone after the Apostles departure what maie bee iudged of those that in two hundreth three hundreth fiue hundreth sixe hundreth eight hundreth yeres after the Apostles were not heard of but sodainlie were sette out in the worlde as Traditions of the Apostles Eusebius also reporteth libri v. Cap. xviii that it was alledged as a Traditiō of the Apostles that Christ commaunded theim not to departe from Hierusalem twelue yeres after his ascension whiche is manifestly contrary to the the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Tertuliane after he was fallen into the errour of the Montanistes voucheth the Tradition of the Apostles against the Catholikes whom he calleth Psychicos that is animales naturall men and not spirituall Ieronime in Euangel Math. libr. 4. Cap. xxv declareth that it was a Tradition emong the Iewes that Christ should come at midnight whervpon he gathereth that the Tradition of the Apostles was deriued that on Easter eue the people should not depart out of the churche before midnight but tary there for the commyng of christ A likely matter that the Apostles would make a Tradition of the erroure of the Iewes The same Ieronyme vpon the firste Chapiter of Agge saieth verie well of the Apostolicall Traditions Sed alia quae absque auctoritate testimonijs scripturarum quasi Apostolica traditione sponte reperiunt atque confingunt percutit gladius dei But other thinges also speakyng of heretikes whiche thei finde out and feigne of them selues without the aucthoritie and testimonies of the scriptures as it were by Tradition of the Apostles the sworde of God dooeth strike By these examples and testimonies it is manifeste that wée must not by and by receiue what soeuer is saied to be a Tradition of the Apostles The Papiste Fowerth saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium in speakyng of these thinges whiche in diuerse partes are obserued in christes Churche diuersely he geueth that certeine and sure rule that if thei be not against the professed faieth of christes churche nor against the good liuyng and maners of men but haue in theim some maner of encouragement of a better life wheresoeuer saieth he we dooe knowe anie such thing diuersely to be vsed we shal not only not disalow theim but also folow thē with praise and innouation of life So that the infirmitie and weakenes of some men be not let therunto when otherwise if more profette maie come therby vnto the good then hurte vnto the weake offended therby sine dubitatione faciēda sunt without doubte saieth he al suche although thei be diuerse and in diuerse places diuersely obserued yet they ought to be continued and kepte The aunswere Wée agree with sainct Augustine that suche Ceremonies as are instituted for order and comelinesse sake beyng diuers in diuerse churches if thei be not contrary to the Scriptures are to bée obserued of suche as remaine in those Churches And what this should make either for you or againste vs I dooe not sée at all For your Ceremonies are voide of edifiyng vnorderly vndecent for the churche of Christ and then the opinion of merite and satisfaction that you ioigne vnto them beyng contrary to the Christian faithe and the aucthoritie of the Scriptures maketh thē to be vtterly abhominable Furthermore when you make them essentiall partes of the religion and worshippe of GOD our sauiour Christe hym self out of the Prophete Esaie doeth vtterly condemne thē For GOD will not be worshipped with the doctrine Traditions and preceptes of menne Matth. xv Thus neither your ten reasōs out of the scriptures nor your ten argumentes out of the doctours nor your fower bulwarkes out of S. Augustine are able to defende your Popishe churche from ouerthrowe whiche if she take vpon her to encounter with the truthe muste needes bée discomfited and come to vtter destruction The Papiste Besides that this refourmed Englishe churche hath no agreaunce with the catholike churche of christe the religion thereof doeth onely stande of negatiues like as it shall appeare in the processe followyng The aunswere Besides that your Rhetorike in railyng on our Churche is verie vnreasonable your Sophistrie it self in quarellyng againste vs is voide of sufficient subtiltie not onely to defende it self but at leaste wise to hide it self For what impudente kinde of arguing call you this by enumeration of a fewe particulers to conclude any vniuersall proposition These newe reformators deny twentie thynges whiche the Papistes affirme ergo their religion standeth onely of negatiues Maie not I likewise reason the Papistes denie fourtie thynges that the Protestauntes affirme Ergo the Religion of Papistes standeth onely vpon negatiues Furthermore whē euery affirmatiue proposition implieth a negation of his contradictorie and euery negatiue propositiō importeth an affirmation of his contradictorie you maie as well saie that it standeth altogether vpon affirmatiues as you dooe vpon negatiues Like as in the tenne commaūdementes of GOD onely twoo are affirmatiue and eight are negatiue wherein all the duetie of a Christian manne consisteth you might reason that Gods commaundementes stande almoste all of negatiues as though God did onely tell vs what we should not doe and did not teach vs what wée should dooe like as you conclude afterward vpō the sale of Clare the Butchers horse but that right reason telleth vs that the prohibitiue Commaūdementes are also preceptiue and the preceptiue commaundementes are also prohibitiue for he whiche forbiddeth adulteterie commaundeth a chaste life and he whiche commaundeth to honour our parentes forbiddeth vs to disobey the same But because faithe whiche is the foundation of religion is an affirmation of those thinges whiche are beleued

of Yorke and the churche of Bangor had some diuersitie in their maner of seruing God and yet you will saie thei were all one Popishe Churche But to the purpose you recite more names then there be diuersities of opinions For Zwinglius and Caluine in the matter of the Sacrament whiche you shoote at are all one and Luther differeth from them And yet the difference is not so great but that thei bee all of one Catholike Churche because thei agree in the onely foundation Iesus Christe and in all opinions that are necessary to Saluation although Luther in his opinion of the Sacramente as a man was deceiued And that diuersities of opinions so longe as the principall groundes of faithe bee obserued vncorrupted doeth not make diuersitie of churches you maie easily see by this example S. Cypriā and all the Churches of Affrica were in this error that such as were baptised by heretikes should be baptised again which was a very perilous errour Cornelius Stephanus the Bishops of Rome with the Churches of Europe were in the contrary opinion And yet no man euer refused S. Cypriane to bee a member of the Catholike churche nor iudged the churches of Affrica that followed his errour to bee of any other thē of the vniuersall church of Christ emong whom were many martyres and godly men which liued died in the same error Now cōpare Cypriane Luther the one erring in the Sacrament of Baptisme the other in the Sacramente of the Supper if the errour of th' one did not separate hym from the communiō of the catholike church no more cā the error of the other Whiche thing if it were well weighed would remoue that stōblyng blocke that troubleth many weake persones but can hinder no learned man cōcernyng the controuersie of Luther and Zwinglius The third reason is that we are departed from the Churche of Geneua because we ascribe supreme gouernement in Ecclesiasticall matters to the Quéenes highnes Firste we must bee bolde to tell you that as we reuerence and honour all particulare Churches where true religion is established so we doe not grounde our self vpon either the opinion or custome of any one but onely vpon the worde of God and so farre foorthe to followe euery one as thei come neare to the same rule But whereas you would sette that excellente godly Churche of Geneua at variaunce with vs aboute the supremacie your childishe quarrellyng shall easily appeare to all menne You alledge Caluine againste vs in twoo places one in his Institutions an other in his Comentarie of the Prophet Amos. A man in deede from whom we would bee lothe to dissente excepte it were for a greate cause A manne of suche godlie learnyng and profounde knoweledge in diuinitie as all the Papistes that euer were are not worthie to carrie his bookes after hym But before I aunswer you I muste admonishe you that either your copies whiche came to my handes were verie muche corrupted or els you haue recited those places by hearesaie rather then by your owne obseruatiō Your copies sendeth me to the viij Chapiter of his Institutions namyng no booke and to the fowerth Chapiter of Amos whereas that you speake of the one place is in the fowerth boke and twelue Chapiter of his Institutions the other in the seuen Chapiter of Amos. So that in deede it was more labour to seeke your places then to make aunswere to them Concerning the firste I meruaile you were not ashamed to alledge Caluine againste vs where he saieth that Kynges and Princes are subiecte to the discipline of the Churche as Theodosius was content to be excommunicated by saincte Ambrose for the murther he had committed in Thessalonica which none of vs denieth and doe not remember how substauncially he proueth that godlie Princes haue aucthoritie and ought to maintain true religion by lawes decrees and iudgementes whiche is all the supreme gouernemente that wee ascribe to the Quéenes highnes And as for the place of Caluine vpon Amos the truthe is this Caluine findeth fault not with kyng Hēry but with those that did ascribe that title vnto hym and sheweth for what reason he misliked the same Not that he denied his lawfull aucthoritie whiche was meant by that title of all his godly and true subiectes but because Steuen Gardener bishop of Winchester by false vnderstandyng thereof declared that he vnderstode nothing therby but the tyrannie whiche the Pope vsurpeth ouer the churche to be translated vnto the kyng And therfore at a solemne cōference at Ratisbone in Germanie after the Popes aucthoritie by acte of Parliament was abolished out of the realme he defended all Popishe religion whiche remained vnreformed to bee good and godlie because it was established by the kings aucthoritie who was supreme head of the churche He disputed not by reasons neither cared he for the testimonies of scriptures but saied it was in the kynges power to abrogate all Lawes and establishe what he thought good in the churche as to forbidde Priestes marriage to forbidde laie menne the vse of the Cuppe in the Churche and all other suche matters he saied were in the kynges aucthoritie This he saied of the Kynges power abroade and howe he abused that noble Prince at home to make the Acte of sixe Articles and other thynges of like effect there be many yet aliue that can remember But seeyng this title of supremacie dooeth so muche offende you I praie you lette me demaunde one question of you Who did first inuent it here in England Or who did first ascribe it to kyng Henry Was it not the whole Popishe Cleargie of Englande when thei were caste in the Premunire for mainteinyng the power Legantine of Cardinall Wolsey and submittyng theim selues vnto the Kynge they flattered hym with that title and offered hym a greate somme of money for their pardon as witnesseth Halle and Grafton in their histories and ther be yet aliue many that can remēber it So that if there were any faulte in it you should blame them and not vs for it For so farforthe as beyng rightly vnderstoode it declareth the lawfull power of the Prince wee did and doe yelde vnto it but not in Steuen Gardiners sence whiche Caluin in the place by you alledged doeth cōfute After this you require vs to shewe you a Churche where vnto you maie resorte whiche hath continued euen since Christ whiche if it can not bee shewed you conclude in th' ende that Christ had no churche or els our Churche is not Christes Churche Againe where our Church was fiftie or sixtie yeres agon If a manne had asked of Elias where the churche of God was in his tyme he could not haue made aunswere and yet God had his Churche in Elias tyme The Churche is not alwayes apparaunte to the iyes of the blynde worlde in whiche she is a straunger but is compelled sometymes to flie into the wildernesse out of the sight of men by the persecutiō of the deuill and his members as

confections Neither did the Apostles by that decree commaunde any fastyng but onely abstinence from bloode and strangled beastes whiche was offensiue to the Iewes And for suche ende of auoidyng offences or for ciuile pollicie we can and doe admitte abstinence from some kindes of meates and drinkes but not for Religions sake neither accoumptyng any suche abstinence to bee fastyng But true fastyng to tame the bodie and to bryng it into subiection to humble our selues to make vs more apte to praie we commende and exhorte menne vnto it although we make no tyrannicall lawes to entangle any mannes conscience with all Your féeble kinde of reasonyng should not incurre so greate reprehension if you had not as well in your title as in youre conclusion made so bolde bragges of your plaine proofes whiche be so plaine in dede that euery manne maie see thei haue no force at all in theim And whereas you threaten to shewe that wée dooe all thynges contrary to the primitiue Churche you doe well to sate it shall bée performed in suche sorte as you haue proued already that wee haue none agreaunce with the same For he that hath experience howe pithely you haue reasoned out of the scriptures can not but hope that you will dispute euen as profoundly out of the Doctours The Papiste Argumentes gathered out of the holy Fathers and aunciente doctours prouyng that this late reformed Englishe Churche hath no agreance with the primitiue church of Christe The aunswere A man maie easely perceiue that you delight in greate nombers For as before in your former argumentes one matter was cutte into fower partes to fill vp the nomber so likewise in these argumentes without order or dispositiō diuers things are twise or thrise repeated As dipping in baptisme oile and Chrisme and crossyng whereas if you would haue followed any order all these should haue made but one argument of Ceremonies or Traditiōs Or if you would néedes diuide theim into their particulers you should haue made thirtie or fourtie argumentes of theim and not tenne onely But now how well you difine the primitiue Churche as I haue touched before a manne maie meruaile to see sometyme you alledge twoo hundreth somtyme three hundreth somtyme fower hundreth sometymes sixe hundreth and at length you come almost to eighte hundreth yeres after Christe when you alledge the seconde Counsaile of Nice whiche was holden in the yere of our Lorde seuen hundred eightie and one So that the greater halfe of all the tyme that hath passed from Christes ascention vntil this daie you would haue vs to take for the primitiue churche But you know full well that none of vs would allowe all that tyme for the primitiue Churche especially when wee speake of that state whiche we woulde haue to bee a paterne and example to all churches Onely your purpose was to amase your vnlearned frendes to whom you made this apology with the names of so manie aunciente fathers as you rehease and yet like a wise man you note but fewe places where a man should finde their aucthorities as you alledge theim lest you should happen to be discredited Whiche must needes be compted fraudulent dealyng because you note some wherof no learned manne will doubte and passe ouer so many whiche séeme somwhat straunge that any suche thinges should be to those that parhappes haue reade as muche of the aunciente doctours as you But vnto all your tenne as gumentes I wil first oppose one answere whiche is sufficiente to take theim all awaie namely that suche thinges as you bringe in to haue been vsed of the primitiue churche were not in the first churche of the Apostles whiche is moste properly called the primitiue churche but in the latter and more corrupte age and the further from the Apostles the farther from sinceritie Beside that of Ceremonies not manifestly impious vsed in the aunciente churche after the Apostles the churche at al tymes after hath power to abrogate or alter theim as they growe to bee abused or cease to be profitable therefore diuersitie of Ceremonies maketh not diuersitie of Churches The Papiste Firste in the Primitiue Churche they did mixe in our lordes cuppe water with wine and so for to doe est lex Euangelica traditio dominica as witnesseth S. Cypriane Irenaeus Eusebius Emissenus whiche these our reformatours will none of The aunswere The primitiue churche obserued in the sacramēt that which in drinking of wine they commonly vsed that is to put water among the wine to allaie the strength of it in whiche thyng there was no harme so long as superstition and opinion of necessitie was awaie but that it should bee as you saie lex Euangelica traditio dominica the lawe of the Gospell and the tradition of our Lorde I suppose you are not able to proue by aucthoritie of those Doctours whose names you recite In deede Cypriane verie earnestly vrgeth the law of the Gospell the institution of Christ for wine to bée vsed therein againste certaine heretikes of his tyme whiche contended that it should be ministered onely with water And so he writeth lib. 2. Epist. 3. to Caecilius Admonites autem nos scias vt in Calice offerendo dominica traditio seruetur neque aliud fiat à nobis quam quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit Vt Calix qui in comemorationem eius offertur mixtus vino offeratur Nam cum dicat Christus ego sum vitis vera sanguis Christi non aqua est vtique sed vinum That is Knowe thou that wee are admonished that in offeryng the Cuppe the tradition of our Lorde be obserued and that none other thyng be doen of vs then that which our lorde before did for vs That the cuppe whiche is offred in remembraunce of him be offered mingled with wine For seyng that Christe saieth I am the true Vine not water truely but wine is the bloude of Christe By this testimonie it is manifeste that Cypriane vrgeth wine and not water to be of the institution of Christe and the lawe of the Gospell But I marueile how any Papiste can bee so shamelesse to accuse vs for takyng awaie water out of the Cuppe whiche was no parte of Christes institution when thei them selues are so bolde to take awaie the cuppe altogether whiche is the one halfe of the Sacramente of Christes owne institution and continued in the Churche 1400. yeres after Christe vntill the late Counsaile of Constance whiche was but. 155. yeres agoen Thei maie robbe the people of the bloodde of Christe whiche Christe appoincted for theim and we are heinous heretikes for not vsing water in the Cup whereof as there is no vse so was there none institution This is the iudgemente of those that bée blinded with their owne pride to espie a mote in an other mannes iye and not to see a beame in their owne The Papiste Seconde in the Primitiue Church in baptising they vsed to dippe the partie baptized thries in the water and S.