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A07782 A Christian dialogue, betweene Theophilus a deformed Catholike in Rome, and Remigius a reformed Catholike in the Church of England Conteining. a plaine and succinct resolution, of sundry very intricate and important points of religion, which doe mightily assaile the weake consciences of the vulgar sort of people; penned ... for the vtter confusion of all seditious Iesuites and Iesuited popelings in England ... Bell, Thomas, fl. 1593-1610. 1609 (1609) STC 1816; ESTC S101425 103,932 148

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words following For if his faith could faile then should hel gates indeede preuaile against him Remig. I answere that Christ did not build his Church vpon Peter I proue it First because the words are changed both in the Greeke which is the fountaine ana originall and also in the romish approued Latin translation which onely must be beleeued and followed by the decree of their Tridentine Councell for the alteration of the word insinuateth significantly an alteration in the sense If Christ had meant to build his Church vpon Peter he would haue said vpon this Peter and not vpon this Rocke And it is not to the purpose to say that Christ spake in the Hebrew of Sy●●ack tongue for we haue the originall in Gréek from S. Iohn who being full of the holy Ghost would neuer haue changed the words but to insinuate expresse a different sense and meaning if as Christ had said thou art a Rocke by name and my selfe a Rocke by nature and indéede so strong so permanent so inuincible that hell gates cannot preuaile against it Upon this Rocke therefore of thy consession will I build my Church against the faith of which Church neither hell nor the Diuell shall euer preuaile Secondly because the Apostle affrmeth constantly that no man can lay any other foundation then that which is laid which is Iesus Christ Christ therefore speaking in S Mathew of the Rock of the Church doth by the word Rocke annotate himselfe not S Peter for we see that S Paul doth so expound Christs words whose interpretation may fitly be gathered out of the circumstances of the text in S Mathew either is it to the purpose to cite out of the Re●elation of S. Iohn that the wall of the City which he behold had twelue foundations and in them the names of the twelue Apostles of the Lambe for the Apostles were but partiall and mutable foundations but Christ is the totall and permanent foundation of the Church neither can any City wall or other thing haue mo● total foundatios then one neither yet can the twelue foundations make for Peters prerogatiue ●●y thing at all for seeing the foundations were 〈◊〉 in number precisely assigned by the vision to the twelue Apostles without distinction o● limitation it followeth by● necessary 〈…〉 the 〈◊〉 〈…〉 for this ●e●pe●● doe the holy fathers vsually write that what 〈…〉 Christ spake or did to Peter concerning the Church he spake it 〈…〉 〈…〉 th● 〈…〉 in the name of the ●ho● 〈…〉 con●●●-●●th my exposition● T●●s Petrus c. thou art Peter ●uch Christ and vpon this Rocke which thou hast confessed vpon this Rocke which thou hast acknowledged saying thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God will I ●uil● 〈…〉 Church● that is vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church vpon my selfe will I build thée not my selfe vpon thée Fourthly because S. Chrysostome iumpeth with S. Austens interpretation in these words columnae quidem c the Apostles are the pillers because by their vertue they are the strength of the Church they are the foundation because the Church is built vpon their confession when the Lord saith thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church Fiftly because S. Hylary is consonant to the other holy fathers these are his words this faith is the foundation of the Church by this faith hell gates shal not preuaile against it this faith hath the Keyes of Heauen Sixtly because the receaued Popish glosse vpon this text vnderstandeth by the Rocke Peters faith the confession which he made Seuenthly because Panormitan and Syluester two very famous 〈…〉 are both of the same opinion Out of this discourse I obserue these points for your better instruction First that Christ is the Rocke vpon which Peter is built that Christ is the Rocke vpon which the Church is built that the Sonne of God is the Rocke vpon which the Church is built Secondly that the Apostles are called the foundation because as testifieth S. Chrysostome the Church is built in their confession when the Lord saith thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church Thirdly that the confession pronounced for ●●der sake by the mouth of one euen Peter by name was the ioynt confession of them all the Church is built in their confession marke well these words of the ●●lded mouthed doctor S. Chrysostome they are words of great importance they proue the controuersie so sufficiently as no euasion can take place they proue effectually that whatsoeuer was said to Peter touching the Church was meant of the whole Congregation of the faithfull for as Peter spake and answered in the name of the whole Church so Christs demaunds answeres and promises were made and intended for the whole Church for as S. Chrysostome truely saith Peters confession was made in the name of all the Apostles and consequently in the name of the whole Church when he pronounced Christ the Sonne of the liuing God and euen so Christs answere and promise was made to Peter as appeareth by the circumstances of the text in the name of the whole Church and I may not forget to adde hereunto the ioynt-testimonis of all the learned diuines of Paris who as we haue heard already vnderstād al things spoken to Peter in Church matters to be meant of the whole Church as when he prayed that Peters faith should not faile he then prayed for the infallibility and perpetuity of the faith of the whole Church all both the holy and auncient fathers and also best approued popish writers our Iesuites and Iesuited popelings only excepted doe willingly subscribe hereunto Obiection 3. Theoph. Christ commanded Peter and onely Peter and that three seuerall times to feede his sheepe Ergo Peter onely Peter had the ordinary charge and gouernement of Christs sheepe and consequently all Priests all Bishops all Arch-bishops all Patriarkes receiue their authority and iurisdiction from the Pope as from Saint Peters successour Remig. I answere that all Christs shéepe were committed to all the Apostles ioyntly and seuerally aswell to Paul the rest as to Peter yea rather to Paul though he were none of the twelue then to Peter for hee saith of himselfe that the Gospel of the vncircumcision was committed to him euen as was the Gospell of Circumcision vnto Peter and consequently since all Christians now were Gentiles then y● Pope if he wil néedes haue a superiority ouer all his brethren y● Bishops must perforce reduce his succession from S. Paul for this policy perhaps it is that the Pope euer ioyneth Saint Paul and Saint Peter together whether it be in giuing pardons or other faculties whatsoeuer I proue the proposition First because Christ committed the charge of all Nations to all his Apostles alike without any priuiledge or restriction more or lesse to one rather then to another Secondly because Christ for edification sake
required a thrée sold confession of Peter in regard of his thréefold negation left nouises and weaklings should haue béene scandalized vnderstanding that such a notorious sinner without publike confession of his faith should haue any iurisdiction ouer them but not to giue any speciall prerogatiue to Peter thereby The reason hereof is euident because our Sauiour had before this charge of féeding giuen a very large commission to all his Apostles of féeding all Nations and therefore he can now meane and intend no other thing but onely to moue Peter to walke warily to be mindfull of his infirmities to be carefull of his charge Thirdly because Saint Austen that mighty pillar of Christs Church confirmeth defendeth this my present doctrine These are his expresse words Ecclesiae Catholicae personam sust●●● Petrus cum ei dicitur ad omnes dicitur a●●● me pas●●●ues meat Peter represented the person of y● Church Catholike when it is said to him it is said to all louest thou me féed my shéep Fourthly because S. Cyprian decideth this controuersie 〈◊〉 plainly as cānot but satisfie 〈…〉 indifferent reader● these are his expresse words loquitur Dominus ad Petrū ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus c. Paulo post hoc erāt vtique caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio prediti honoris potestatis sed exord●● abo●ni●ate proficiscitur vt Ecclesia vna monstretur Our Lord speaketh vnto Peter I say vnto thée that thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church c. the same were the rest of the Apostles doubtlesse that Peter was indued with equall fellowshippe both of honour and of power but the beginning procéedeth from vnity that the Church may be shewed to be one And the same holy Father confirmeth this his doctrine in another place in these memorable words Episcopatus vnus est 〈…〉 a singulis in solidum pars tenetur there is but one Bishoprick● a part whereof euery Bishop possesseth and enioyeth wholly S. Austen confirmeth S. Cyprians sentence and iudgement in these words Claues non vnus homo Petrus sed vnitas accepit Ecclesiae not one onely ma● Peter receiued the Keies but the vnity of the Church Fiftly because two famous popish writers are iump of tho same opinion constantly desend y● same doctrine Couar●vi●s a profound Canonist a popish Archbishop of great estéeme in y● romish Church hath these expresse words enim iuxta Catholicorum virorū auctoritates communem omnium traditionem Apostoli parem ab ipso Domino Iesu eum Petro potestatem ordinis iuridictionis acceperunt ita quidem vt quilibet Apostolorum aequalem cum Petro habuerit potestatem ab ipso Deo intotum orbem in omnes actus quos Petrus agere poterat for according to the authorities of Catholike writers and the common tradition of all the Apostles receiued from our Lord Iesus Christ himselfe equall power with Peter both of order and of iuridiction in somuch doubtlesse as euery Apostle had equall power with Peter from God himselfe and that both ouer the whole world and to all actions that Peter could doe Iosephus Angles a famous Fryer and a very learned popish Bishop in that selfe same booke which he dedicated to the Pope hath by the force of Gods spirit testified the same truth both against the Pope against himself these are his owne words si comparemus B. Petri aliorum Apostolorum potestatem ad gubernationem omniumcredentium tantam alij Apostoli habuerunt potestatam quantam B. Petrus habuit ita quod poterant quemlibet Christianum totius orbis sicut modo Rom. Pont. excommunicare in qualibet Ecclesia Episcopos Sacerdotes creare ratio est quia omnis potestas B. Petro promissa tradita fuit caeteris Apostolis collata hoc sine personarum loci vel fori discrimine if we compare the power of S. Peter and of the others Apostles to the gouernment of all the faithfull other Apostles haue euen asmuch power as S Peter had so that they could then excommunicate euery Christian in the whole world and in euery Church make Bishops and Priests the reason is because all power promised and giuen to S. Peter was also giuen to the rest of the Apostles and that without difference of persons place or consistory Thus we haue a full and resolute iudgement both for answere to the obiection and for the supposed prerogatiues and priuiledges of S. Peter which resolution is not onely deduced out of the holy scripture but plainely contested also by the vniforme consent of the holy fathers S. ●vprian and S. Austen and in like maner of the famous and learned papists Couarruvias and ●osephus Angles for they teach vs many sound points in diuinity First that all the Apostles had as great authority and as full and large euery way as Saint Peter had Secondly that euery Apostle aswell as Peter could make and constitute Bishops and Priests euery where throughout the Christian world Thirdly that what act soeuer S. Peter could doe euery Apostle had power and authority to do the same Fourthly that the iurisdiction of euery Apostle was as great and as large euery way as Saint Peters was And this saith Couarruvias is the common receiued doctrine of all Catholike writers this is a poynt of Catholike doctrine so important and so memorable as it well deserueth to be written in golden letters Fiftly that Christs spéeches vnto Peter in the singular number did not argue any superiority of iurisdiction but only signifie the vnity of the Church Sixtly that the authority and iurisdiction of euery Apostle was equal to Peters and that without all difference of persons place or consistory This is another point of great consequence for séeing first all and euery of the Apostles had equal iurisdiction séeing secondly that their iurisdiction was not limited but ouer the whole world seeing thirdly that the whole iurisdiction of euery Apostle ended and expired with his death and séeing fourthly that S. Iohn liued after all the Apostles it followeth of necessity that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction of the whole world remained in Saint Iohn after the death of Peter and the other Apostles So then if the Bishop of Rome will haue indéede any such prerogatiue as he falsly pretendeth to haue he must bring and shew vs his comission from S. Iohn and not from S. Peter for S Iohn being the suruiuer had all iurisdiction in himselfe And if the late Bishops of Rome can shew vs such a commission from Saint Iohn viz that Saint Iohn translated and committed his whole power authority and iurisdiction to the Bishop of Rome and his successors I for my part will willingly yeeld obedience to the same not otherwise For I require the Popes charter from S. Iohn Theoph. This is wonderfull which you say and yet you proue the