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A30942 The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion. Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687. 1654 (1654) Wing B794; ESTC R23641 73,761 196

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Metropolitical Church you may learn of the most Reverend Primate Dr. Usher a man I think of great Authority among you also as among all Scholars most justly I refer you to his Geographical Tract of the Asian Diocese Tr. Return to the Text Mat. 18. v. 19. I shall prove it undeniably that a single Church hath an independent power But first will you grant me that two or three may be taken for a small Congregation B. Yes I desire to grant you all I can without injury to the Truth Tr. Then thus I argue Where is the Duty and the Blessing there is the Power But in a small Congregation where two or three c. is both the duty and the Blessing Therefore there is also the Power namely of Excommunication B. Where is the duty c. You leave out a very necessary word Independent For supposing that a power of Excommunication were in a particular Congregation I cannot grant it is there independently but there may be an Appeal But did you ever hear of an Indepent Church of two or three Tr. Yes there may be a Church of so few and that independent B. A private Church I grant not a publick enabled with power of Excommunication a power supreme Lo you here is Popery in a little volume an independent absolute supreme Church made up of two or three H. Did you not grant to Mr. Tr. that two or three may be taken for any small number now you recall your words You know if there be twenty in a company we sometimes say there be two or three B. No indeed that 's too far wide Let the people judge of this whether any will say there be two or three if there be twenty persons met in a room Two or three that is twenty silence I pray But Sir the words of Christ are verified if there be but barely two And therefore I may justly think it too small a number to make the Church mentioned v 17. It cannot be for this reason The Church in the 17. v. is of more authority and more in number than the two or three mentioned in the second admonition v. 16. But two or three v. 19 20. are not of more authority nor more in number than the two or three mentioned v. 16. Therefore the two or three v. 19 20. are not the Church mentioned v. 17. Answer this and you shall hold your Supremacy to the worlds end for me H. You hold an Appeal from the Church to the Civil Power which is plain Erastianism B. Erastianisme I shall make it appear to be Christianisme But what was Erastus pray H. I came not here to be Catechized by you B. Erastus was one that denied the power of Excommunication in the Church which I do not but desire it may come into practice upon true Rules If you would know Erastus see the Book of Binding and loosing at large And noble Sir you that are a Civil Magistrate let me call you to witness that I stand here an Advocate truly to plead for the Supreme authority of this Land and I undertake to shew that the Highest powers in the Commonwealth have also the Highest Rule of the Church and may receive Appeals from any Christians that complain of wrong in any Congregation whatsoever Col. A. The Highest Powers haply doubt of that Authority and forbear to execute any such till they be more fully satisfied B. Were I worthy I would request them to know their power and use it for the restitution of Primitive Episcopacy They doubt you say but Sir these men flatly deny that authority of the Civil Magistrate in matters of Religion H. And how I pray do you prove it B. Let every soul be subject to the Higher Powers Every man saith St. Chrysostome whether Lay or Clergy Col. A. There is no such distinction of Lay and Clergy in the Scripture All the Lords people are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his Portion B. Sir you say most true that All the Lords people are his Portion that is as selected and called out of the World but his Ministers are more peculiarly his as called from among his People and admitted nearer to him being separated for the Ministration of Holy things But however all sorts of men I say whether Ministers or others must be subject to the Highest powers Tr. Yea in Civil things they must be subject not in Ecclesiastical The Powers are distinct B. They are distinct in their Objects or Matters about which they are exercised they are united in the same Subjects or Persons that are supreme in all causes both Eccleclesiasticall and Civill W. You were wont to pray for the King in that stile B. Yes when the King was and now they that have the Kingly power may withall assume the same title if they please W. By no means Temporall Governors power Spirituall B. The power of Civill Magistrates in matters of religion is called Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall in respect of the object of it about which it is conversant not in respect of the manner of operating For the supreme powers do not minister in holy things in the Word and Sacraments and censures but they take care and provide that these ministrations be rightly and orderly performed H. But how prove you an appeal to be made to the highest power in a Church-case B. Saint Paul appealed unto Caesar Acts 25. 10 11. Tr. Yea but that appeal was in a cause concerning sedition B. Hear himself speak For the Resurrection of the dead am I called in question Act. 23. 6. W. That was said in policy to divide the Pharisees and Sadduces B. However the Apostle spake nothing but the truth as appears also by the words of Festus Act. 23. 19. The question was whether he might preach Jesus and the Resurrection Tr. That Caesar was Nero a heathen tyrant and persecutor a fit man to meddle with Religion B. He was it seems fir for Paul to appeal unto for want of a better and had he acquitted the Apostle he had thereby given him a right against the Jews See Grotius of Authority concerning this particular and the whole matter As for the Supremacy of Christian Kings this is one argument If the Jewish Kings had power in matters of Religion then have the Christian Kings the like power But the Jewish Kings c. To. Let me adde another Argument out of the Prophet concerning the Christian Church Kings shall be her nursing Fathers and Queenes her nursing Mothers W. Read out the verse and you are answered They shall bow down to thee with their faces to the earth Is 49. 23. Here is subjection rather than superiority To. A superiority of Government and Patronage is included in the name of Father but these Fathers are Sons of the Church too in another sense and subject to the spirituall guides of their soules subjection and Government may consist together in severall respects B. Will you turne to the Text in Matth. 18. once more and hear a