256. nota 68 A belieuing man may haue remission of his sinnes though the Minister who pronounceth it intend no such thing pag. 256 69 It is not the dutie of the Minister of the Gospell to reade prayers by the houre but to giue diligence to reading exhortation and doctrine pag. 257 70 Christians are bound to obey the lawes of Magistrates but are freed from the religion of them Their particular lawes binde not the conscience though men must obey their gouernment for conscience sake pag. 267. â—58 nota The summe of the ninth Answere touching the sophismes of the Aduersarie 1 Iesuits be chiefe Sophisters and kings of all other in the kingdome of Poperie pag. 263 2 The sophismes of the Papists by which they would ouerthrow the marriage of Ministers and Deacons pag. 264 3 Pope Innocent thought marriage dutie to be an vnholy thing ibid. nota 4 Their sophismes for the Popes supremacie and his excellencie aboue the Emperor that he is not to be reprooued that he cannot erre pag. 265. 266. 267 5 Though one Pastor haue rule ouer one flocke it followeth not one must haue ouer all ibid. nota 6 Their sophismes for priuat Masse the Priests communicating alone that the people must haue onely one part pag. 267 7 Their sophismes that prayers must bee in an vnknowne 〈◊〉 us that the people may not reade the Scriptures pag. 268 8 Their sophismes that the bread is Christs bodie and that it is to be worshipped that election is for merit ibid. 9 Their sophismes that the sicke should bee anoynted that marriage is a sacrament That a Monkish life is warrantable by the examples of Elias and Iohn Baptist but it is vnsound pag. 269. nota 10 Their sophismes that there are seuen Sacraments that images must be set vp in Churches That we are iustified by charitie and not by faith ibid. 11 Their sophismes that men haue free will that Christ deliuered the Fathers out of Lambus that the authoritie of the Church is aboue the Scripture pag. 270 12 Their sophismes that all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation That men passe thorough the fire of Purgatorie to eternall life pag. 271 13 The place 2. Thes 2.15 doth not establish traditioÌ„s ibid. nota 14 The 1. Cor. 3.15 doth not prooue Purgatorie ibid. nota 15 Some sophismes of Campians ibid. 16 It is no sophisme from the commendation of mariage to ouerthrow the vow of virginitie pag. 272 17 The Prelates haue spoken most basely and impiously of mariage like to the ancient Heretikes pag. 273 18 They prefer virginitie before it without any Scripture and yet they make it a Sacrament and virginitie none pag. 272. nota 19 Mariage is honourable in all and impure in to degree pag. 273 20 Protestats vse no sophisme in disputing against merits ibid. 21 Papists teach that their merits dipped in Christs blood doth merit saluation that is that Christ hath merited by his blood that men might merit saluation pag. 274 22 That good works cannot merit is proued ibid. nota pag. 275 23 Neither Angels can nor Adam could merit any thing ibid. nota 24 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against worship of Saints ibid. 25 Saints are not to be worshipped or prayed vnto 275. nota 26 Duraeus saith the Saints are in farre distant places at once 276. nota 27 Papists blasphemies touching the Virgin Mary ibid. 28 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against the Masse and Purgatorie 277 29 Neither Masse nor Purgatorie is to be found in the scripture neither the names nor the things are there ibid. 30 In the Supper thâ—re was no sacrifice neither now can be nor vnbloodie sacrifice 278. nota 31 There is neither the name nor the office of a Priest in the new Testament appropriated to any one kinde of men 279 32 There is no sacrifice in the Gospell but that which is common to all to offer 280 33 The Church hath lawfull power to chuse her Ministers 280 nota 34 The Papists choise of meate and their set daies of fasting are ridiculous and superstitious 281 35 The examples of Elisha Daniel and Iohn Baptist will not warrant Popish fasts 282. nota 36 S. Paul reprooued the Galathians for obseruing dayes and times because they accounted it necessarie to saluation as Papists doe now teach 282. nota 37 Papists fastings condemned by the 1. Tim. 4.23 and differ from the old Christian fast ibid. 38 Aeâ—â—â—s was not condemned of the Church as an heretike for iudging of fasting as Protestants doe 283. nota 39 Auncient Christians fasted voluntarily not by canon or precept ibid. 40 The word Sacraments are the true notes of the Church 283.284 41 The Fathers in the greatest matters are wholy the Protestants 285. nota 42 Papists preferre the Fathers before the Canonicall Scriptures ibid. nota 43 By Aquinas his iudgement things are necessarily prooued by the Scripture but only probably by the Fathers ibid. The summe of the tenth Answere touching all manner of Witnesses 1 It is Campians witlesse kind of reasoning wheÌ„ an enumeration of all kind of witnesses to coÌ„clude all are on his side 299 2 They only find the way spoken of Isay 35.8 who are taught by Christ and be holy 300. nota 3 In visible particular Churches are good and bad not in the inuisible Catholike Church ibid. nota 4 No Iesuite nor any Papist can be in heauen because they haue the marke of the beast 301 5 Many Bishops of Rome are in heauen but neuer a Pope ibid. 6 Ignatius was not on the Papists side because he taught that a Bishop was aboue a King for Protestants hold the same for the administration of the offices of a Bishop Yet the King aboue him in commaunding him to doe them and in puâ—â—shing him if he neglect them 301.302 7 Protestants receiue Traditions so long as they agre with the writingâ— of the Apostles ibid. 8 Neither Telesphorus reuiued nor the Apostles ordained the fast of Lent ibid. nota 303 9 The decretall epistles of the Pope were not framed by them but by their parasites ibid. 10 Iâ—enaeus allowed not the succession of Bishops in Rome but while there was succession of truth with it ibid. 11 Victor could not make the Churches of Asia keepe Easter after the manner of the Romane Church but the Councell of Nice preuailed more ibid. nota 12 The Church of Smyrna neuer gathered the bones of Polycarpe for reliques but to burie them 304 13 Cornelius the Pope could neuer abolish the error which Cyprian and the Church of Affrike did hold ibid. nota 14 Sixtus was no more on the Papists side then on the Protestants because he had Deacons to help him to celebrate diuine seruice ibid. 15 Helenâ— iâ—â—he found the Crosse yet she worshipped it not as Pâ—pâ—â—tâ— do aâ—d thâ—t with â—aâ—râ—a 305. nota 16 Monâ—â—â— deâ—ired not to be sacrificed for at the Mâ—â—â—e for remission of sinne but to be
fellowes digged out of their graues to helpe you in your desperate cause heare me Campian that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity offering also to yeeld you the victory if you brought one plaine and manifest authority out of any Father or Councell that same we do all professe and promise and will surely performe it Twentie yeares are expired and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto then your masters before haue had why stay you why sit you still why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause But alas you are no body you haue read nothing you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers or performed lesse then he promised but only that he had yeelded further vnto you then he needed and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures to the authorities of the Fathers which yet he did not as though he distrusted any thing the triall of Scriptures for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie which preuailed with many You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with Toâ—y Matthew and wâ—â—led him to answere freely whether hee that read the Fathers diligently could bee of that part which â—e fauoured Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things which we would not haue further reported or dispersed yet I doubt not but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere as was both agreeable to the truth and fit for his iudgement and wisdome Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers nor doth our faith depend vpon their word Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others yet may we reade them by their truthes be more learned by the contrary more wary And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers And this also is all our opinions After you haue thus finished your discourse you will now as you say without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies skirmishes warres campes and of your battailes but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides and the issues of battailes vncerteine The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes not in the stoutnes of words EDMVND CAMPIAN The sixt Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers IF euer that saying a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures was loued and liked of by any which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies and from destruction by their paines and teachings haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting with holy Scriptures And finally they exercised themselues euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors vppon the common practise of the Church vpon the succession of Bishops vpon generall Councels vpon Traditions of the Apostles vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs vpon the decrees of Preâ—â—â—s vpon strange signes and marnâ—â—â—â—us â—â—â—racles yet their greatest desire was especially to fill their treatises with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures These they vrge vpon these they make their habitation to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place like noble captaines daily desending the Catholike Church which is the citie of God by them kept in good repaire against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie the which thing maketh me the more to maruell at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures Doth he speake as he thinketh I will see then that these most famous writers most auncient Fathers and most holy men Saint Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ with the Prophets with the Apostles and with the whole furniture of the Bible Grant good Lord that that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England which those Fathers did had and defended raigne in England I say good Christ grant that that religion may raigne in England that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures Looke what Scriptures they bring wee will bring the same looke what Scriptures they conferre we will conferre the same looke what Scriptures they alleadge we will alleadge the same Art thou also contented with this cough out Sir a Gods name and tell me plainly what you thinke I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly what meanest thou by saying rightly ô now I know after thy owne fancy Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing Then for as much as I am in good hope that in the foresaid Vniuersities that most freshly flourish there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies not grosely but with sharpe iudgement and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially but in equall ballance I will therefore with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility force of Christs Church against a monkesâ— multitude of ragged Rogues WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the sixth Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers I Cannot wel coÌ„iecture Campion what these new foundations of the fathers may bee which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere and haue plainely prooued that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpoÌ„ And it is probable that you thought so your self therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the
but because he was forced to follow a fellow that rode a wilde goose chase The benefit of which epitomie may be this If you reade the summe of euery answere before you reade each particular answer it will well prepare you to conceiue of the answere it selfe if after which I could wish also you would doe then it will present to you the whole as it were in a mappe When you haue read both and the whole booke if at any time you remember some thing you would see more particularly and can but tell or make some nie coniecture in what answere it is laid downe with reading of one page you may finde in what 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 be found Finally let it incourage you the â—â—ther to reade this Treatise because you shall finde in it whatsoeuer is by our late Papists in their Pâ—â—phlets and Treatises which they haue audaciously sent abroad in these few last yeeres when the lawes haue been laid asleepe and the iust seueritie of them greatly qualified I say whatsoeuer is in them either obiected against our Church and doctrine or spoken in their owne defence is here to be found and a solid answere giuen vnto them if any thing would giue them satisfaction If you bee but well exercised in this one booke out of it you may gather some smooth stones as out of a brooke by which though you should not be enabled to hold any long warre with a cunning Papist yet you may smite him in the forehead and fell him groueling to the earth 1. Sam. 17. as Dauid did the vncircumcised Philistine The Apostle exhorts that we earnestly contend for the maintenance of the faith Jude vers 3. which was once giuen vnto the Saints A naked and vnarmed man may well contend but shall neuer be able to maintaine any thing committed to him but it will soone be taken from him so may I say for the truth it is not words but weapons and weight of diuine reason that must defend it therefore must euery Christian souldier that thinkes to haue the crowne take to him such armour as Gods Armourie will affoord him Now those weapons if so be you cannot fetch so readily in the word of truth it selfe because of your infirmitie they are here brought to your hand and you withall are led by the hand to the particular places where they are in the word it selfe Now the Lord of hosts strengthen you in the truth and arme you with his grace that you may be able to stand against all the enemies of your saluation 2. Tim. 4.7.8 and that you may fight a good fight and finish your course and keepe the faith that you may obtaine the crowne of righteousnes which the Lord the righteous Iudge will giue at the last day vnto all those that loue his appearing Yours euer in the Lord Richard Stock The summe of the answere to the first Reason which is holy Scripture 1 PApiste account themselues disarmed if they must fight onely with the scriptures Page 24. nota 2 Of the number of the Canonicall scriptures that Luther and Caluine and their followers haue put out none which antiquitie and the purest Churches haue receiued Page 26 3 Campian was an Apostata not Luther Page 26 4 Luther onely thought not basely of the Epistle of S. Iames but antiquitie also Page 27 5 All Protestants highly reuerence this Epistle of S. Iames. Page 28. 30 6 Luther neuer writ so contempteously of the Epistle of Saint Iames as Campian affirmes Page 29 7 S. Paul and the Fathers haue taught iustification by faith alone Page 30 8 The place of S. Iames expounded and prooued not to be contrary to the doctrine of iustification by faith onely Page 31 9 Not Protestants of late but the Fathers of old haue put out of the Canon Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of Machabees and diuers other bookes Page 32. 33 10 The Papists cannot defend the Articles of their religion by the Canonicall scriptures but are forced to flye to the Apochrypha Page 34 11 Duraeus contrary to the Councell of Trent denieth traditions to be of equall authority with the scripture Page 34 12 Protestants haue denied no one booke or word of any booke of Canonicall scriptures Page 35 13 Angels do defend the elect but their hirarchy and degrees are without warrant of the word and their worship flat against the word Page 35. 36 14 Man hath no frâ—â—will by nature Page 37 15 The bookes of the Machabees are reiected by diuers Fathers and the Laodicene Councell ibid. 16 Neither prayers to the dead nor for the dead are lawfull Page 38 17 Seâ—â—en bookes of the Apochrypha were put out of the Canon by Hierome a thousand yeares before Caluine was borne Page 39 18 The 3. and 4. bookes of Esdra sometime were highly accounted by the church of Rome Page 39 19 Protestants haue not cut out of the Canon sixe epistles of the new Testament but honour them much neither haue the Lutherans Page 40 20 Augustine and Hierome in their difference for the number of the Canonicall bookes reconciled Page 41. 42 21 Meliâ—o Bishop of Sardis though he put the booke of Wisdome in the Canon yet he excludeth all the rest Page 43 22 The Laodicene Councell forbiddeth the reading of those bookes which are without the Canon and alloweth only the reading of thâ—se which we put in the Canon of the old and new Testament 43.44 The Councell of Carthage allowed them only for manners nota for three hundred yeares these bookes were not in the Canon so confesseth Duraeus nota Page 43 23 The Councell of Carthage denied the Pope to be vniuersall Bishop Page 43 24 The Papists crueltie farre surpasseth the Protestants iust seueritie Page 45 25 The scriptures haue in themselues many proofes that they are the word of God but the certaine infallible and sauing assurance is from the spirit of God Page 46. 47 26 Campian scorneth the iudgement of the spirit in respect of the iudgement of the Church as if they were contrary Page 46. 48 27 The Church can make no writing Canonicall neither doth the authority of it depend on the Church It hath in it selfe his owne authority Page 48 28 Without the spirit a man may haue some knowledge of the scripture but no faith The testiments of the spirit as not 〈◊〉 confute others but confirms our selues Page 45. nota 29 The Lutherans did not onely surde somewhat lacking in the Apocalyps but ouen antiquitie receiued it not you reâ—ected it Page 50 30 Luther preferreth the Gospell of S. Iohn and Paules Epistles before the other Gospels and why Page 50. 51 31 What a Gospell is and who especially is an Euangelist Page 51 32 Campian slandereth Luther as touching S. Lukes Gospell Page 52 33 Beza hath no more offended in charging S. Luke with a solecisme then Hierome did in charging S. Paul Page 53 34 The words of institution in the Supper of the Lord a little examined
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
profound diuines with what * Two Bishops were taken in adulterie and put to death Illyric deuotion with what lamentations with what abstinence and fasting with what flowers of Vniuersities with what knowledge of strange tongues with what sharpe wits with what studie with what endlesse reading with what store of vertues and exercises was that sacred place replenished I heard with my owne eares Bishops reioyce being men of great birth and very well learned of which one was Anthony Archbishop of Prage who created me Priest for that they had been brought vp certaine yeeres in that famous Schoole so that they acknowledged no benefite that euer the Emperour Ferdinando bestowed on them to whom otherwise also they thought themselues no little beholding to be more princely and bountifull then this was that by him being sent in Embassage from Pannonia they sate in the Councell of Trent together with the rest of the Fathers there present This thing the Emperour full well perceiued who greeted them in this sort at their returne We haue maintained you in an exceeding good Schoole why made the aduersaries no hast hither being promised to goe and come safe that they might openly haue confuted them against whom they croke like Toads out of their hoales They haue broken promise say they with Husse and Hierome who the heads of the Councell of Constance That is a lye Ioh. Huss for they made them no promise And yet Husse had not been put to death if that he false and treacherous villaine as he was not only by an escape which the Emperour Sigismundus had forbidden him vpon paine of death and being taken was brought backe againe but also by * This is false for he broke no conditions breaking certaine couenants which he had made in writing with the Emperor had not lost the benefit of that safe conduct Husse was hedged in for his hastie knauerie for whereas at his countrie in Bohem he had stirred vp barbarous tumults and was therfore commanded to appeare before the generall Councel at Constance he contemned the prerogatiue of the Councell and made suite for a safe conduct to the Emperor The * Note Emperour sealed him one all Christendome which is greater then the Emperour vnsealed it again the arch heretike would not recant and therfore he was burnt Hierome of Prage As for Hierome of Prage he came priuately without any safe conduct at all to the Councell of Constance and being apprehended did appeare and had libertie to say what he could and was verie curteously intreated and suffered to goe abroad at his pleasure Hee was cured of his disease and abiured his heresie hee fell againe and therefore was burnt But wherefore do they so often inculcate and call to memorie this one example amongst sixe hundred Anno 1518 Let them peruse their chronicles Martin Luther one hated both of God and man personallie appeared at Augusta before the Cardinall Caietane and did he not belche forth of his venemouse gorge what poysoned speeches he could and at length being protected with the Emperour Maximilians safe conduct went he not safe away Anno 1521 The same Martin Luther being sent for to come to Wormes though hee had both the Emperour and almost all the Princes of the Empire his Enemies did hee not vpon the Emperours word come and goe safe Finally did not the ring-leaders of the Lutherans and Zuinglians in the presence of Charles the fifth the open enemie to all heretikes Conqueror and soueraigne vpon a truce graunted them exhibit at an assemblie at Augusta August confess Vide acta Conc. Trid. the confession of their faith which before they had so often altered and went they not without hurt away Likewise the councell of Trent prouided for the aduersarie most large warrants to come and goe safe but he would not vse the same He beasteth forsooth of himselfe in corners where when he can vtter three greeke words he may seeme to bee a great learned man He flies from the light which would make a slender scholler to bee accounted learned and so aduance him to seates of great dignitie Let them purchase for vs English Catholikes if they loue their soules health * There is not the same reason such a safe conduct in writing wee will not alleadge Husse for our excuse but make our speedie repaire to the court putting our whole trust in the Queenes Maiesties word But that I may returne thither from whence I digressed All generall Councels are on my side the first the last the rest these shal be my weapons Let the aduersarie expect a well headed dart which he shall neuer be able to shake off God graunt that Satan in him may be quite ouerthrowne and Christ reuined WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the fourth Reason THE next place is concerning Councels not much differing from the former for what is a Councell but the flower and as it were a little modell of the whole Church And therefore whatsoeuer may be said of CouÌ„cels it appertaineth to the nature of the Church but when as these for more plainnes sake are sometimes distinguished I doe easily permit you to propound them distinctly a DVR But you coutemne the authority of the holy Ghost speaking by Councels which al the auncient Fathers haue had in singular respect WHIT. pag. 290. You accuse vs falsely for howsoeuer we assent not with you who make them shoulder the Scriptures with equall authority because we know that both they might and also haue grossely erred in many things as the Fathers haue confessed and yee your selues cannot deny yet wherein they are consonant with the Scriptures we embrace their authority and haue them in singular respect and estination And in preferring the Scripture before them we follow but the example of the Fathers August de Baptis contra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. idem contra Maxim lib. 3 cap. 14. de vnitat Eccle. cap. 16. Hieron in Galatas Ambros Epist. 32. Now the name of Councels is honorable their credit singular and their authority of great esteeme and you doe neuer more insolently bragge then in this place for when you doe but name Councels you thinke that you haue sufficiently confuted your aduersaries and promise vnto your selfe assured victory Neither will I go about to extenuate the dignity of Councels woÌ„dering that b DVR Nazianzene dâ—d not iudge inturiously nor writetâ— bitterly of Councels as you suppose but only aâ—fiâ—med that the fraud and malice of the heretikes of those times hindred the assembling of lawfull Councels WHIT. pag. 264. It seemeth you haue not read his Epistle or but very sleâ—gtly â—eeing he therein plainly setâ—eth downe two reasons why he absented himselfe from the Councell when he was called fâ—â—st the weaknes of his body and secondly his iudgment concerning Councels which was that he thought such assemblies were to be auoided because he had seene no good of any Synode and that hereby occasions
the Iewes â—innikeâ— and Idolaters but out of the schooles of Christians which may not be polluted with Images the schoole of the holy Ghost nor found y DVR You shevv your ignorance or impudency vvhen you knovv not or deny that vvhich is euery vvhereto be read among the Fathers as in Theodoret Domasen Augustine Gregory Nissen Metaphrastes Athanasius and others WHIT. pag. 399. These testimonies do rather shew your rashnes desire to deceiue for they are partly faired as that of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius partly not to the purpose by them I vnderstand that Images were made but they proue not that they were placed in the churches worshipped Your reason concludeth not There were Images among the ChristiaÌ„s before the times of Gregory therfore they placed them in their churches to teach the people and to be worshipped of them with holy worship it in the books of the Fathers that were before him and thus at length haue you finished this longe catalogue of the Fathers The reason I would faine know that moued you to go thorough them on this manner For what are you so blockish your selfe to thinke or hope you that any others will like of this kind of reasoning viz. Luther Caluin and their confederates doe write that Irenaus Tertullian Cyprian Chrysostome Augustine Hierome Ambrose Gregory Basil and Naziâ—â—zen do otherwiles erre in some questions in this or that booke and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture but were sometimes deceiued that is they were men therefore they banish reiect and condemne all these Fathers Is this your meaning Campian why then do you your selues being verie often by plaine authorities of the Fathers coÌ„uinced deny flatly that you are tyed to the authority of any father and from them you appeale to the iudgment of the Church Would you not thinke your self hardly dealt withal if hence I should inferre that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes But this is the issue of your disputation and the marke whereat all this your discourse aymeth namely that because we dislike some things in the Fathers which in their writings cannot be defended therefore we violate all we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers we commit a hainous and vnhard-of wickednes Thinke not Campian our Vniuersitie to be so childish that they cannot discerne the indifferencie of our proceeding herein from your vniust calumniation The Fathers wee esteeme highly wee peruse them daily we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently studie Diuinitie By this meanes we encrease our knowledge and are better furnished with armour of defence against you You are afraide to want time and therefore you omit many things Epistles Sermons Homilies Orations Works Disputations of Fathers by which the Catholikes opinions are confirmed Some fragments perhaps say you throwne in corners which without much paines and wearines you could not collect yet your fellowes of late yeares haue diligently sought out and published Whilest they say you are to be solde at the Stationers so long our mens bookes are in vaine prohibited we are sorry you should write such things as we must of necessitie restraine your bookes are such as it behooueth vs to stoppe their passage vnlesse we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition the Church in danger of heresie and mens minds filled with cursed opinions For if Magistrates ought carefully to preuent lest the infection of the plague be from other places brought into their cities much more care is to be had that pestilent and pernicious bookes bee nor openly spread abroad out of which simple and vnlearned men doe sucke poyson of deadly error Neither are we the first that haue taken this course You may remember in Queene Maries time that they proceeded by marshall law against all those with whom any of our bookes were found If this were in vs a matter worthie of death so that we were by and by drawne to punishment as men guiltie of high treason and that without any iudâ—â—â—al proceedings small reason haue you to looke that your bookes now should haue such free libertie to bee euery where publikelie solde We take order that the bookes of the holy Fathers are brought vnto vs from euery matte we buie them we haue them in our priuate studies and publike Liberarie a woâ— place them in open view that they be knowns nor onely by face but by dailie familiaricie Where you affirme that neither Sanders nor Harding nor Allen nor Stapleton nor Bristol doe more â—â—gerly inneigh against those dreames then the Fatherd before mentioned you haue added this saying as an ouerplus to the things that went before These your old souldiers haue imployed in this case whatsoeuer either reading or leysure or cunning or wit or diligence or malice could supply vnto them and for all this haue gained nothing and hope you that are not worthy to be compared with these to performe that wherein they haue failed yet you said that thinking of these things your courage increased and you desired the combate I bewaile Campian your rashnes and foolish hardines which will needs take vpon you the patronage of a desperate cause with the vndoubted losse of your credit and safety and I wish that the day may once come wherin you may make triall of your strength in the combate which you desire Iohn Iewel say you challenged the Catholikes when you were a young student calling vpon and desiring the helpe of the Fathers as many as flourished 600. yeares after Christ That worthy man did that he knew himselfe able to performe he had read ouer all the Fathers with speciall iudgement and diligence hee saw how you deceiued the ignorant he had a care to preserue his countrimen from your dangerous error And hereupon without any boasting as you would haue it but trusting only in the power of God and the truth of the cause he calleth forth all the generation of Papists vnto this triall viz. if they could confirme their opinions by the holy Scriptures or by the witnes of Fathers and Councels they should ouercome if they failed they should confesse themselues were vanquished Certeine renowmed men say you liuing as Exiles as Loâ—ane entertaine thâ— offer and allow of the condition Harding was the captaine of these he aduentured himselfe hand to hand in this combate but how worthily performed he the condition Iâ—wel calleth for Fathers Harding produceth certeine Clements Abdies Martials Hippolyes Amphilochytes and others of this rancke Fathers of worshipfull antiquitie If all the auncient Fathers of the Church be as you bragge of your side why should Harding turne his backe so cowardly bringing in for witnesses in a most waighty cause wherin we demaunded the iudgement of antiquitie a company of vpstart bastards I know not fromwhence whom no man before had saluted seene or heard of passing by of purpose the knowne and truly noble Fathers Is this the reuerend antiquity you talke of must wee haue these
but indeed many of your Schooles defend him saying the kingdome of heauen is prepared for them vvhich haue merited it by their good works therefore hee chuseth no man to life eternall but with respect of merits S. Iames commaundeth that sicke persons should be anointed Å¿ DVR The sicke vvant health novv as vvell as then and therefore must novv haue the same helping remedie WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a signe of healing in those times of extraordinarie giftes in the Church your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health and so is friuolous therefore we must now euer and anon anoint the sicke This is a great mysterie t DVR The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte WHIT. pag. 764. Nay he himselfe expoundes it of the mysticall vnion betweene Christ and the Church therefore Matrimonie is a Sacrament Elias and Iohn Baptist liued in the wildernesse u DVR These men left a famous example of Monkish life WHIT. pag. 765. The Monkes life is not proued by their examples for Elias was commaunded to goe into the desert during perill they doe that without both precept and perill John Baptist indeede liued in the desert but wherein men did dwell to whom also he preached and there were many cities and townes in that desert Josh 15.61 what is this to idle Monkish life therefore they inuented the manner of life and discipline of Monkes There are seuen deadly sinnes x DVR Name him that thus disputeth WHIT. pag. 766. It is Iohn Lâ—dâ—vvicke in a booke intituled The golden vvorke of true contrition leafe 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church c. therefore there are iust seuen Sacraments God made man after his image y DVR Pope Adrian proueth not the vse of images by this place but saith it vvas signified by it WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confesse he alleageth that Scripture to proue the vse of images was signified by it and who but a superstitious doctor would haue done so therefore images must be set vp in Churches The chiefest of these is charitie z DVR The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest vertue WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things preferre charitie before faith but onely because it indureth in the life to come when wee shall not neede faith as Chrysostome expoundes it now faith onely apprehends Christ our righteousnesse and therein excelleth charitie Lastly you erre grossely in effect ascribing our iustâ—fication to the merit of vertue in vs vvhich onely is merited by Iesus Christ therefore we are iustified more by charitie than by faith I will goe Osea 5.15 saith the Lord to my place vntill they ponder in their heart and seeke my face which indeede he spake a DVR Do you thinke that God calleth men to repentace ironically WHIT. pag. 799. No but when men will not seâ—k God being called thereto by his bountie no maruaile though hee withdraw it from them and as it were laugh at their madnes of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures ironically and after the manner of men therefore men may be conuerted vnto the Lord by their owne meere will and disposition The Lord commaundeth vs to doe many things b DVR Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thinâ—s WHIT. pag. 770. Hee expoundeth his owne meaning that Adam before his fall could and that we in heauen shal be able to keepe all Gods commandements but he often saith that no man in this life can fulfill the Law of God DVR Men vse not to make lavves impossible to be kept WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by mans Againe when these lawes were first giuen man could performe them and vvee must not looke that God should alter them to fit our corruption DVR God could not iustly punish lavvbreakers if they could not keepe it WHIT. pag. 771. Answere then Eusebius Euangelicall demonst lib. 1 who saith that Moses Lavv vvas impossible to be kept of any man And Thomas Aquinas vpon Gal. 3. sect 4. saying Moses commaunded many things vvhich no man could fulfill therefore those things may be performed of vs. Christ descended to the dead therefore he deliuered c DVR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bel but to deliuer the Fathers from Limbus WHIT. pag. 772. Nay first proue you that he did go so to hel as you thinke for my part I beleeue it not but that his soule went presently to heauen Againe you begge the question saying he went to hell to deliuer the Fathers DVR I proue it by these Scriptures Zac. 9.11 Psal 68.18 Heb. 9.8 WHIT. â—acharie speaketh only of the Iewes deliuery from the captiuitie of Babylon Dauid speaketh of Christs ascending into heauen and triumph ouer his enemies and you childishly inferre hereupon therefore he descended to hell to deliuer the Patriarkes from Limbus but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrewes the true sense whereof is that we are not reconciled to God by the Iewish sacrifices but by Christ therefore you inferre that none of the Patriarkes vvent to heauen vntill Christ came out of hell and opened heauen by his bodilie ascension the Fathers out of Limbus The Church discerneth the Scriptures d DVR Catholikes say not so WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth and constraineth all Christians to rest therein bee it neuer so false and contrarie to the Scriptures else it doth condemne him for an heretike therefore the authoritie of the Church is greater than the authoritie of the Scriptures Saint Paul commaundeth the Thessalonians 2. Thess 2.15 that they keepe the ordinances which they had learned therefore e DVR What error find you in this argument WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent first you cannot proue hence that the things which S. Paul spake by word were not the same in effect which hee wrote to theÌ„ secondly if he wrote not all to theÌ„ which he had taught theÌ„ it followeth not that hee taught something which is not written in the Scriptures thirdly admit many things were left vnwritten yet it followeth not that all things necessary to saluatioÌ„ be not written nor do the ancient Fathers say so all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation 2. Cor. 3 15. Hee himselfe shall bee safe yet as it were through fire f DVR Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire WHIT. pag. 776. But the place it selfe sheweth that it cannot bee meant of any such fire for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault but in your Purgaâ—orie faults are not consumed but you say punishments are sâ—ffred for fâ—uâ—â—s 2. S. Paul saith euery mans worke be it gold or wood shall be tried but you cast nothing but wood hay and stubble into your fained Purgatory 3. S. Paul saith euery mans worke shall be
is no more our fault then yours the controuersie is about the word of God You contend that you haue it I contrariwise defend that we haue it if you like not my iudgement why may not I dislike yours But you say we expound the word c DVR You doe so for you proue the sense of Scripture vvhich you alleage neither by authoritie of Fathers nor by decrees of Councels nor by the rule of faith that is the common vse and custome of Christians WHIT. pag. 831. The meaning of the Scriptures in matters necessarie to saluation is plainely taught in the Scriptures as the Fathers themselues confesse and may bee found out by religious conferring of easier and harder places and such like meanes and so we proue the true sense of them The Fathers expositions often erre and varie one from another as their writings witnesse and you vvill confesse the auncient Councels expound little of the Scriptures as for the vse and customs of the people it is no rule of faith at all nor must vvee expound the Scriptures thereby amisse I againe auouch that it is false which you say Whither are you now come at last go one foote further forward if you can Why say you I haue the testimonie of fifteene hundred yeeres This is nought else but a friuolous a foolish and an insolent bragge You haue not I say you haue not Campian You are euer heere deceiued and turne round againe as it were into a circle and are faultie in that same very thing for which you reprooue vs. Touching the Fathers I haue answered you alreadie In the questions of greatest waight they are wholly on our d DVR Jf it vvere so you vvould not extenuate their authoritie nor refuse to stand to their iudgement as you doe WHIT. pag. 833. We giue the Fathers their due but rely more vpon the Scriptures which are infallibly true you are driuen from the Scriptures and rake vp euen out of the Fathers ouersights whatsoeuer seemeth to fauour your errors neither doth it follow that the Fathers are not on our side in many and the greatest controuersies because wee say with Augustine that all controuersies of religion must not bee determined out of the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures side in those of smaller moment their iudgemeÌ„ts are diuers and they make for you in very few and those of least importance How much better would it stand with wisedome that as Augustine sometime wrote of Councels neither you should obiect Ierome against me nor I Augustine against you Aug. contra Maximian lib. 3. cap. 14 thereby to preiudice each side but that matter might be tried with matter cause with cause and reason with reason by the authority of the Scriptures Aug. Epist 111. ad Fortunatian For indeed as the same Augustine hath elsewhere taught vs we must not haue any mens disputations howsoeuer otherwise they be meÌ„ of sound iudgement and worthie praise in like estimation as the e DVR No Catholike euer esteemed any mans vvittings to be compared vvith the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 834. But Papists not onely compare them with but also preferre them before the Scriptures for they vvill not haue controuersies tried by the Scriptures but by the Fathers and they sooner allovv a sentence of one Father than many Scriptures so did not Angustine nor Thomas Aquinas Canonicall Scriptures Such an vnderstander saith he am I in reading other mens writings such would I haue other men to be of mine And because you haue mentioned Thomas Aquinas The. Aquinas 1. p. 1. q. 2. Art learne of him what manner argumeÌ„ts may be taken out of the Fathers writings Diuinity or holy learning saith he vseth authorities of Canonicall Scripture to proue or disproue a thing necessarily but it vseth the authorities of other f DVR VVe say not that the iudgement of one or tvvo of the Fathers but that the common consent of the Pasters and Doctors of the Church is the strongest argument to confute you WHIT. 833.835 Augustine and Thomas spake also of all men opposing onely Scriptures vnto them so that apparantly they taught that the consent of all Fathers and Doctors could bee but a probable reason and that the Scriptures onely yeeld necessarie arguments vvhich no consent of men though neuer so learned Doctors and Pastors can confute Further I say pag. 854. that you haue the common consent of all the Fathers in no one cause against vs yea that all the auncient Fathers doe together with vs vvith one voyce condemne your halfe Communion Transubstantiation reall presence sole Communion bread-vvorshipping externall reall sacrifice seruice in strange language your Popes absolute iurisdiction and many other such like Doctors of the Church to dispute of a thing probably These forsooth ô you truly learned Vniuersitie students are those so notorious sophisticall errors which Campian could finde worthie his censure in our mens writings I could wish you might haue this so famons a Sophister to canuas awhile at home in your Schooles then verily would it easily appeare how much truth excelleth falshood and how farre sound learning preuaileth against vaine bragging words for I know well such Sophisters as this is can neither any whit affright nor greatly perplex you EDMVND CAMPIAN The tenth Reason which is all manner of Witnesses THis shall be to you a direct path so that the simplest that bee neede not wander out of it For who is Esay 35. though he be but of the meaner sort of common people so senselesse so that he haue an eye vnto his soules health that cannot see if he looke but a little about him the path of the Church so plainely trodden that cannot keepe it if he dislike of by-wayes that lead him through brambles and ragged roches and places that cannot be passed These things shall be well knowne euen of those that be ignorant as Esay hath prophecied and therefore most manifest vnto you If you will * Campian bringeth nothing in this place but a continuall begging of the question let vs take a view of all things that are any where to be seene let vs trauerse ouer euery thing wheresoeuer it be All things do minister matter fit for our purpose Let vs ascend into heauen by imagination there may we finde such as through martyrdome Coelites are as ruddie as the red a August Serm. 37. de Sanct. rose and also such as for their innocencie while they liued do glister as beautifully as the white Lilly There may we see I say those * Of which not one was a Papist three and thirty Bishops of b Dam. in vit Poâ—â— Rom. Rome which for their faith were immediatlie murthered one after another There may we see such Pastors as throughout all nations vpon the earth shed their blood for the testimony of Christs name There may we see the stock of faithfull people that tread the steps of their Pastors There may wee see
but as if you had said It is no heynous thing to conceiue and bring forth an Infant Therfore it is none to deuoure it after it is borne heynous act It is therefore a figuratiue speech commanding vs to communicate in the Passion of the Lord. Doe you thinke this reuerend old man dotes or hath he not giuen a iudicious interpretation wel agreeing vnto the iudgement of the auncient I thinke matters yet goe worse on your side then they did before but perhaps you will say these are too auncieÌ„t to serue your turne heare then some of latter times Theod. Theodoret a Gretian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogueâ— x DVR Theodorets meaning is that the signes haue not lost their naturall properties though their nature be changed WHIT. pag. 214. If the naturall properties remaine then certeinly their natures must for esseâ—tâ—all properties can neuer be separated from â—heir natures yea in the words follow ng in this very place Theodoret affirmeth that the nature remaineth The mysticall bread saith he remaineth in the nature it first had in the figure and in the forme Mysticall signes doe not lose their proper nature This very speech quite ouerthroweth your Transubstantiation for if their proper nature remaine without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature therefore there can be no Transubstantiation but I will ioyne to Theodoret Marcarius whose homilies Morelius had out of the Kings Librarie and hath published them in Greeke and I suppose that you being a Frier will not reiect the testimony of so auncient a Monke he writeth thus In the Church saith he Marcar homil is offered bread and wine y DVR An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure but the substance signified by that type or figure WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is neuer properly the substance of the type though sometime it be another type answering to it and both of them are but similitudes figures of the substance And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same as Heb. 9.24 The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heaueÌ„ being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle And in this sense doe diuers of the Fathers vse the word Antitype as Basil Nazianzen Theodoret Chrysost antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood What saith he bread and wine but bread is already turned into flesh and wine into blood Ought a Monke to speake after this manner giue you them so slender a name as similitudes Pardon mee Campian this Monke was neuer vsed to speake after your manner neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad what say you now are you pleased with this reuerend hoare head of the Fathers If you rest not heere it shall be free for you to appeale to any one of the whole reuerend company of the holy Fathers not one of them no not any one of them do I except against For I make no doubt but if they may be iudges you shall euer haue the worst From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumniâ—â—ions vpon vs and boast your selfe of the bare names of the Fathers for the Fathers both in this controuersie and in many others are firme on our side As for the Fathers of whom you name many but I beleeue haue read but a few I thus answere you We are not the seruants of the Fathers but the sonnes When they prescribe vs any thing out of the Law and diuine authoritie we obey them as our parents If they inioyne any thing against the voyce of the heauenly truth we haue learned not to harken to them but to God You as Vassals and base seruants receiue whatsoeuer the Fathers saie without iudgement or reason being affraid as I think either of the whippe or the halter if euery thing they speake be not Gospell with you In few words say you this is their drift vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guilty there is no iudgement to be had Verily this fits you a great deale better then vs for you will receiue no iudgement but the iudgement of the Pope and Church of Rome which Church and Pope wee haue proued long agoe to be guilty of most heynous crimes and there hath been a perpetuall variance betwixt him and vs. Is there any equity then in your demaunds that we should stand to his iudgement who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty and an aduersarie to vs And well should we deserue to lose the cause if we would be so witlesse contenders Much truer speaketh Augustine Let one matter encounter with another Contra Maxim lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another one reason with another by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures which are not proper to either side but common z DVR How foolishly do you alledge Augustine who maketh the Scripture a witnes of the truth not a iudge as you would haue it WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witnes where shall we find a iudge answerable to this witnes Is it the Church Then must it be of more authority then the Scripture which heere you affirme not neither may it be graÌ„ted for the Scripture is the word of God therefore he that is the iudge of it must be the iudge of God himselfe To deny the Scriptures then the preheminence in iudging is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God so the Scripture the word of God hath the authoritie both of a witnesse and a iudge DVR Augustine euer thought that the Popes iudgement was the highest tribunall â—pon earth where all controuersies must be decided WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine neuer thought so but writ the contrary De ciuitat Dei lib. 15. â—ap 3. The Lord saith he hath penned the Scripture which is callâ—d Canonicall because it is of highest authoritie yea hee neuer once pressed the Arrians either with the authoritie of the Pope or of the Councell which vndoubtedly he would haue done neither could he haue done better if the highest iudgement had been in the Church witnesses for both And to their iudgements would we haue you to stand not ours As for other things you speake of I passe them ouer for you will reserue them for vs till another place and wheras you say you haue cited many and worthy places of Scripture we haue weighed those places in their ballances and haue found them to light to proue what you proposed And it is your vse indeed rather to take them by number then by weight But you charged vs with scorning at this and shifting them off we did nothing lesse all we did was to free them from your cauils We haue say you alledged the interpretations of the Greeke and Latin Churches I confesse it but we haue wrung all those weapons from you and haue by them battered all your holds But say you what say they
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
of euils were rather increased then taken away DVR Yea but he hath shened his contrary iudgment vvriting his Cledonius WHIT. Nothing lesse but only hee affirmeth that he vvould subscribe to the Apollinarian heretikes if they could proue that they vvere receiued of the vvest Councell vvhich hee knevv they could not Nazianzene Nazianz. Epist. 4â— ad Procop. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should so vniustly iudge and so iniuriously write of them For he saith that he had deliberated with himselfe and fully resolued to auoid Episcopall Conuocations because he had neuer seene a good issue of any Synode Which howsoeuer it hath bin true of many which by reason of the ambition and busie medling of some haue not taken away auncient controuersies but rather haue sowed the seed of new contentions yet many Councels haue been approued and commended by their most wished euent Whereas therefore you appeale to Councels we will follow you in many in their most weighty censures and decrees for in all neither do you your selues iudge it necessary But let vs now heare you discoursing concerning Councels A waighty question say you concerning lawfull cereâ—â—â—ies was cleared in a Councell of the Apostles and Fldâ—rs assembled together The children beleeued their Parents and the Sheepe their Shephâ—ard commaunding in this forme of speech It bath pleased the holy Ghost and vs. Where you make mention of a Councell most excellent and aboue all exceptions in which nothing was done rashly peruersely and factiously as sometimes in other Councels it hath been accustomed but al things diuinely and by the authority of the holy Ghost himself and therfore if we did not beleeue this Councell we were vnworthy of the name either of children or of sheep This Councel resolued that important question concerning ceremonies and freed the neckes of Christians from that most grieuous yoke of Mosaicall rites whereby the greater cause of griefe is offered vs by you who haue imposed vpon the Church contrarie to the expresse commandement of this Councell another yoke much more intolerable then that of Moses For this is cleare and manifest that the ceremonies brought into the Church by you and imposed vpon the consciences of men are twice as many as those which in time past Moses by Gods expresse commaundement inioyned vnto the people of Israell August ad Ianuar. And this is that of which c DVR Angustine vvhen he vvrit this did not after your manner carpe at Ecclesiasticall ceremonies but shevveth that be vvould not haue them instituted at euery mans pleasure For in his first Epistle to Ianuariuâ— he thus vvriteth If the vvhole Church vse any of these it iâ— insolent madnes to dispute vvhether such a thing is to be done or no WHIT. pag. 296. Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time and vvould haue vs rest contented vvith those few ceremonies vvhich are commended vnto vs in the Scriptures Ad Ianuar. Epist 118. cap. 1. Epist. 119.19 His vvords vvhich you alleage I vvillinglie embrace for vve vse and esteeme those ceremonies vvhich all Churches haue receiued as necessary for order and comelinesse But of this kind yours are not neither can you vvrest those speeches concerning the ceremonies of the Church to approue your Traditions seeing the Church of Rome long since ceased to be the Church of Christ Augustine long agone complained namely that by the multitudes of ceremonies the state of Christians was become worse then the state of the Iewes themselues which if Augustine spake of the ceremonies of his time how much more would he haue thus complained had he seene the great multitudes which were afterwards added to them But if the Apostles and Elders according to the meaning iudgment of the holy Ghost did determine that those ceremonies which the Lord himselfe had ordeined were to be abolished how intolerable is your boldnes who contrary to the decree of this spirit and Councell haue obtruded vpon Christians your innumerable traditions and needles ceremonies Did the Lord therfore abolish his owne ceremonies that he might establish yours did he abrogaâ—â— a few that he might bring in a multitude did he ease vs of lighter that he might impose heauier Whereby it appeareth that the diuine institution of this Councel which as it was before all other in time so aboue all other in excellency is most wickedly by you violated And is it to be thought possible that you who haue demeaned your selues so impiously towards these Parents and Pastors will be more respectiue towards others Nay there is not any Councell which you haue not long ago trodden vnder feete so that euery one of you are infoulded in a thousand excoÌ„munications And dare you Campian notwithstanding make mention of Councels which if they were in any force surely you should no more be tolerated in the Church then Publicans and Pagans There followeth this say you for the rooting out of heresie the foure general Councels of the auncient Fathers which were of such strength and authority that a thousand yeares since they were had in singular account euen as Gods word it selfe And we likewise doe freely confesse that the authority of those foure Councels was good and profitable Luthe de Concil Reade what learned Luther hath writ of those foure generall Councels and so also you may know our iudgement of them Notwithstanding there is no reason why we should assent vnto Gregorie Gregor lib. 1. Epist 24. who professeth that he doth imbrace and reuerence these foure Councels as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell For this were rather to violate the Gospell then to reuerence the Councels Although as I take it Gregories meaning was that what was decreed and concluded in these foure Councels out of Gods word against Arriuâ— Euâ—â—onius Macedonius Nostorius Eutyches and Dioscâ—ruâ— that he firmely embraced and would not suffer these decreet which are approued by the Euangelicall writings and in which this impious heresie is condemned to be reuoked and repealed no more then the Gospell it selfe neither can I imagine that it was Gregories purpose to affirme this of all these Councels that the Councell of Nice Constantinâ—ple Ephesus and Chalcedâ—n were fully equall vnto the holy Gospell in authority and dignity And so we our selues do not doubt that those things which these Fathers haue determined against those heretikes before named concerning the consubstantiall subsistence of the Father and the Sonne of the diuinity of the holy Ghost of the one person of Christ in two natures are as true as the Gospel it selfe not because these Councels so iudged and concluded but because in the Gospell the selfe same doctrine of faith is deliuered Further you say That also iâ—â—â—r owne country by our Parliaments the same Councels retaine their auncient right It is true indeed that in these and all other things which they propound if they be consonant to the holy Scriptures they doe still retaine their auncient right and dignity But lest you should
suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced whatsoeuer they haue decreed heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels Councels not only may erre but also sometimes haue erred In the Artic of Religion Artic. 21. and that in these things which belong to the rule of piety and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation hath no vertus nor authority vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ouâ— of the holy Scriptures Cite you now these words and then contest as you call it your sweet couÌ„try And in like maÌ„ner this your most deare countrie in which you were borne brought vp and graced doth contest intreat and beseech you by all those things which are vnto you most sweeâ—e and best esteemed that you desist any more in this bâ—dde cause to be troublesome vnto her that you will noâ— corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion that you will make more preciouâ— account of her dignity then of a forraine enemie and that you would at length returne thither from whence you haue straâ—ed And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country if you could euen for a litle space lay aside that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome and brought with you hither into England But let vs heare what is this your contestation If say you you will reâ—erence these fourâ— Councels you will chiefely honâ—r the Bishop of the chiefâ— Sâ—â— that is Peter And so do we ascribe great honour vnto Peter and that worthily neither doe we contend with you about him but this affirme that those things which were proper vnto Peter cannot in any wise appertaine to your Pope who was neuer like either Peter or Paul And in truth what madnes is this so insolently to bragge of Peters great vertues when in the meane time you cannot proue that your Popes are indued with any such Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits will thinke that Peters faith piety and all the rest of his vertues haue bin deriued to your Pope by a lineall descent from so many other Popes of whom a great number were not men but monsters This doubtlesse is a grosse dotage and fit to be taken away Quouis helleboro dignum with the mad mans purge and as one saith for those diseases reprehension is the best maâ—â—â—r of cure Should I entitle your Gregoriâ— the 13. who now gouerneth at Rome with the name of Peter doth he teach doth he feed Christs sheepe surely he cannot Doth he performe the duty of an Apostle or of a Bishop nothing lesse How therfore doth he demeane himselfe Sitting in the Vatican he prouoketh to warre moueth seditions armeth subiects against their Princes and filleth the whole world with vproâ—â—â—â— Did Peter thus behaue himselfe is this to be Peter can you deny that these things be true and shall I then yeeld vnto him the like honor that is due to Peter being so vnlike him in conditions But let vs further examine your words You will say you chiefely honor the Bishop of the chiefe Sea that is Peter but by what Councell doe you proue that necessary you alleage the Councell of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chiefe Sea or of Peter neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop then that decree of Nicene Synode for it matcheth all Metropolitanes and Patriarkes in an equall ranke of honor with the Bishop of Rome neither doth it attribute any more to him then vnto the Metropolitanes of Antioch Alexandria and the rest of the other Prouinces If you please you shall heare the words of the Councell Concil Nicen Can. 6. d DVR This cause by you alleadged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Romane Sea ouer all Churches For vvhen as the Fathers to proue the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria alleage the custome of the Church of Rome they shew hereby that Alexandria dependeth vpon Rome as the mother Church froÌ„ which she hath all her authority And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Popes Legat in the Councell of Chalcedon is also proued by the 39. Canon translated out of Arabicke into Latin The same Fathers likevvise assembled at Sardis approued the Supremacy of the Romane Sea WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleadged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon wherin their own proper limits of iurisdiction are assigned to euery Metropolitane For if the Pope should rule ouer the whole Church it had bin absur'd to limit euery one their owne borders wherein they should haue supreame authority according to the custome of the Church of Rome Neither doth this proue the supremacy of the Romish Church because they alleadge her custome and example as you ignorantly inferre seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equall or inferiour as from a superious It is no maruell if Paschasinus being the Popes Legate spake for the supremacy of the Romane Sea neither is his testimony to be regarded being a party Your Arabicke Canon is meerely Arabicke and not Nicene for of this Councel there were only 20. Canons written in Greek and not in the Arabian tongue The Canon of the Councell of Sardis helpeth you not seeing the Councell of Africke testifieth that iâ— was counterfeite Let the ancient custome be in force which was in Aegypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the chiefe dignity ouer all these things because also this was the custome of the Bishop of Rome and in like manner at Antioch and in the rest of the Prouinces let the Primacy and authority be receiued vnto the Churches You see Campian I suppose that no extraordinary prerogatiue hath been giuen to the Bishop of Rome and that his Prouince and Iurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders Ruffin lib. Decimâ— And after this same manner doth Ruffinus if you do not credit vs interpret this Canon This Auncient custome is obserued at Alexandria and in the citie of Rome that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Aegypt and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the cities neire adioyning And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities with which the Nicene Synode hath enioyned him to rest satisfied and hereafter let him not trouble himselfe with the care of our Churches which appertaine not vnto his charge And so you see that if you had been well aduised you would neuer haue mentioned this Councell Act. 4.16 But you adioyne also vnto this the Councell of e DVR The Councell of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Romane Sea that you ca with no shifts auoid it For therein
Dioscorus as for diuer other faults so especially for excommunstating the Pope vvas depriued of Episcopall authority Act. 3. Besides they writ thus to Pope Leo. He exteÌ„deth his madnes against him vnto whom the custody of the vineyard is committed by our Sauiour and against thee who labourest to vnite the body of the Church Againe they desire that their decrees should be confirmed of the same Pope And Paschasinus saith that the Pope of Rome vvhichus head of all the Churches depriued him because as Lucentius addeth hee presumed to call a Councell vvithout the authority of the Apostolike Sea WHIT. pag. 302. This councell is so far from confirming the Popes supremacy that it plainly ouerthroweth it for though Pope Leo with all earnestnes opposed against the honor and dignity of the Bishop of Constantinople yet he obteinâ—â— of the Councell that degree of honor which he desired which he could not haue done if the Councell had acknovvledged the Popes supremacy Concerning Dioscorus he was depriued for many notable crimes as murther blasphemy against the Trinity burglary adultery and excommunicating the Pope and you make this last a speciall cause of his depriuation as though it were a more heinous crime then murther adultery and blasphemy Therein aduauncing your Pope as your manner is aboue the blessed Trinity The committing of the vineyard to Peter maketh nothing for your Pope who is not Peter nor any thing like him Proue that it was committed to the Pope and you say something The confirmation of the decrees was not a thing proper to the Pope but also appertained to the other Patriarckes and Metropolitanes yea to the Emperors Paschasinus and Lucentius accusing Dioscorus say not a word of the Popes supremacy although they were the Popes Legates And whereas he calleth Rome the head of all the Churches his meaning was that it was the first greatest and most famous Church Chalcedon that thereby you may proue that the chiefe honour is to be ascribed vnto the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is vnto Peter I graunt Campian that this sea in time past was had in the chiefe place of honour and I know very well that the chiefe dignitie was attributed to the Bishop of this sea the reason whereof you may easilie perceiue out of the selfe same Councell For this was not done by any commaundement of Christ that the Church of Rome should excell in dignitie all other Churches of the world but the Fathers testifie that the cause why that Citie was inuested with greater priuiledge than others was this because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire You may finde the words themselues in the same acte which you cite Act. 16. But if as you say the Church of Rome ought to haue the preheminence aboue all other Churches in the world in diuine authoritie what then ment the Chalcedonian Fathers to affirme that there were some prerogatiues graunted vnto that Church for this cause alone in that Rome was the head of the Empire and therefore they thought that the Bishop of that Citie which was the Empresse of the world was worthie of some more honour than others And this honour to speake of was onely this that the Bishop of Rome should haue the preheminence of place in Councels the prioritie of speech in deliuering his opinion and the precedence in rancke and place And thus neither doe we our selues now much enuie this honour to the Romane Bishop but that if so it please him he may enioy it so that he doe not because he hath the chiefe place imperiouslie tyranize ouer his brethren as he hath done for many ages and perswadeth himselfe that he may doe it lawfully But seeing it pleaseth you to obiect vnto vs the CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon that you may challenge the chiefe honor as due to your Bishop of the chiefe Sea before I proceed further I would gladly you should resolue me in this question why the f DVR This was not the iudgement of the whole CouÌ„cell but of certeine men Neither did the Constantinopolitanes require that their Sea should be of equall authority with the Sea of Rome but that it should haue the like soueraignty in Ecclesiasticall matters and obtainâ— the next place to it WHIT. pag. 306. This was the iudgment of the whole Councell except the Popes owne Legates Paschasinus Bonefacius and Lucentius who in vaine opposed for the decree runneth thus These things we all say these things please vs all And contrary to your assertion these Fathers decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should be matched in equall priuiledge with the Bishop of Rome which equality of priuiledges cannot stand with the vnequality of authority Neither did prioritie of place proue that the Bishop of Rome had any priority of authoritie sâ—â—ing this was only for orders sake otherwise by the same reason the Bishop of ConstaÌ„tinople should haue had the like authority ouer the Bishop of Alexandriâ— because he sate aboue him Fathers of this Councell made the Sea of Constantinople equall to the Sea of Rome for so they decree and diffinitiuely determine that seeing great priuiledges were graunted to the Church of Rome in respect of the Empire of the citie they thought it a matter of great equity that the new Rome that was now graced with the Empire and Senate should enioy the same priuiledges which old Rome had done And although the Bishop of Rome did most earnestly contend and labour that the Bishop of Constantinople might not be made his equall yet he could not by his best meanes effect his desire but that the decree of the Councell preuailed which had equalised the Bishop of Constantinople with the Bishop of Rome And therefore me thinkes you haue but ill defended the honor and dignity of your Bishop when you alleadge the decree of that Councell Moreouer the Councell of g DVR The filth Canon of the Councell of Constantinople ascribed greater honor to the Romane Sea then to any other WHIT. pag. 311. This honor was only of precedence and place and not of authority as plainly appeareth in the words of the Councell it selfâ— Chap. â—8 and in that the like prerogatiue was graunted in the next place to the Bishop of Constantinople and therefore by the like reason he might â—rrogâ—â—â— authority ouer the whole Church Constantinople which you also cite Canon 5. decreed no other thing for the Romane Sea then that the Bishop of Constantinople should haue the prerogatiue of honor next to the Bishop of Rome And this we also confesse that in times past the Prouinces were so distributed that Rome had the chiefe Constantinople the next and so euery one in their owne order But what maketh that to this cause which we haue now in hand For this is not the honor which the Bishop of Rome challengeth vnto himselfe this not the height of power and maiestie which he so often arrogateth Ephes Conc. in Epist ad Nestor The Councell also of h DVR
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
a witles kinde of reasoning is this first to recken vp the Saints in Heauen and say these are ours Then to number vp the damned Iewes Gentiles Turkes Heretikes and affirme those are the enemies of our Church To rehearse those Countries that haue been conuerted to the faith of Christ and conclude by and by these are of our Religion would you take this man to bee well in his wits compassing Heauen Earth and Hell so childishly a DVR Jf heere he any thing ridiculous then may you laugh at the Prophet vvho aâ— speedily runnes ouer the whole world And S. Paul tooke a testimony for a truth out of the beathen Poet Act. 17 2â— WHIT. pag. 856. Who knoweth not that God may be knowne by his creatures religion illustrated by nature vncorrupt but what nature I pray you hath taught CamptaÌ„ thus to iudge of the heauenly spirits and the damned soules and of the whole frâ—me of things can he learne by nature that those who haue professed the Popish religion doe novv enioy heauenly happines and that they who dislike it are tormented in hell These weapons of Campian were those that impure Symmachus opposed Christian religion withall Ambros Epist 30. Prudent contra Symmachum ridiculouslie and impertinently taking vnto himselfe what he liketh and reiecting the rest A worthie cauil fit for none but Iesuites which when a man hath by one negatiue discharged can neuer be proued by their peruerse sect and whole societie These dreames of yours Campian are vnworthie any answere one word of denial confutes this whole Chapter I will not bestow much time in answering this Sophisme so vnhansomely framed and patched together it shall suffice lightly to passe and only touch euery thing in a word First therefore you alledge the prophecie of Esay of a straight way wherein the simple should not erre b DVR You shew your ignorance in the Prophet for he speaketh not of the way to the Church but of the Church it selfe vvhich is the high way to heauen WHIT. pag. 857. Howsoeuer you interpret the way it maketh neither much for me nor for you The question is who shall find out that way and walke in it for it is not discerned of all because it is a plaine way nor held of all because it is a right way but he that hath learned Christ is he that walketh in this way without any error though he be but sillie and vnskilfull DVR Jf this be so then can it not be the true Church which conteineth sinners and men polluted And the Fathers by this place exclude only those who are not clensed by Baptisme WHIT. pag. 858. The Prophet speaketh of the Church of the elect and Saints because he saith vers 8. The polluted shall not passe by it and vers 20. the redeemed only whose ioy shall be euerlasting but the visible Church conteineth those which are impure whom Christ hath not redeemed and whose ioy shall perish As for Baptisme it purgeth none but such as lay hold of the promise of free iustification by Christ as Tit. 3.5 Heere the Prophet describes the entrance into Christs Church viz. that it should be ready plaine and easie But this way brings vs not to your Church c for of this way the Prophet reports that no prophane man no Lion or cruell beast shall be found in it whereas all your waies are compassed with polluted men raging beasts Lions Beares Leopards Dragons Diuels and in conclusion they leade miserably bewitched men vnto wofull destruction As for vs we treade that way which Christ and his Apostles haue traced out before vs wee auoyde your erroneous and strange waies because it is the way of sinners that you sâ—â—â—d in which way whosoeuer treadâ— Psal 1.1 Rom. 3.17 the way of peâ—ce they haue not knowne First vnderstand the path well your selues and then direct the way vnto vs. Let vs say you asâ—â—â—d into heauen I feare you Iesuites haue no place there Heauen is for Christians not Iesuites But suppose your selues for the time to be in heauen what followeth Let vs behold say you the Martyrs 33. Bishops of Rome slaine together the Vniuersall Pastors companies of the faithfull all holie Saints Well suruey Campian heauen it selfe and all the heauenly host looke well in all the parts and coasts of it whiles you list you shall not find there vpon my word one Iesuit not one Papist for none shall stand in Mount Zion with the Lamb Apoc. 14.1 that haue receiued the marke of the beast or belong vnto Antichrist But in heauen are 33. Bishops of Rome and many more I doubt not but of all these name me one if you can of your religion whom you may iustly claime as yours Those were holy and faithfull Bishops which shed their bloud for the name of Christ But your Popes for these many hundred yeares what else haue they done but persecuted Christ and murthered his true seruants If those 33. Bishops be in heauen as doubtlesse they are how many late Popes could I recken vp which possibly cannot be where they are in all things they are so vnlike them You pick out a few let vs see who these are Ignatius say you was ours why I pray you He thought no man equall to the Bishop in causes ecclesiasticall not the King himselfe and left in writing certaine Apostolike traditions neither say we that any man is to be compared with the Bishop in such things as belong to his office d DVR If these be so proper to Bishops that they cannot belong to Kings then you being iudge the Queene cannot be the head of the English Church WHIT. pag. 160. We acknowledge no other head of the Church saue Christ And Prince though they may not do any of thâ—se 〈◊〉 yet they rule ouerthem who doe and ought to command them diligently to execute their offices which if they neglect they ought to reproue compell and punish them as we reade the good Kings of the Church Iewish and Christian haue euer done and the reason hath no force Princes haue no authoritie to preach therefore they haue no authority to punish those who teach false doctrine to their people He only ought to ouersee holy things viz. instruction of the people administration of the Sacraments vse of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen These are matters of great weight and exceed the kingly authority yet are Kings aboue Bishops in wealth honor gouernment maiestie and they may lawfully both admonish them of their dutie and restraine them when they offend If Bishops herein would equall themselues with Kings it were too intolerable As for the Apostles traditions which Ignatius hath left in writing we receiue them so farre as they agree with the Apostolicall Scripture if they dissent from those we refuse them The Epistles of Ignatius were most of them counterfet as euery man may see heere you rehearse many and still the vndersong is these are ours Telesphorus say