Selected quad for the lemma: authority_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	divine_a	faith_n	infallible_a	4,131	5	9.8328	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28848	A relation of the famous conference held about religion at Paris between M. Bossuet, Bishop of London, late tutor to the Dauphin, and Monsieur Claude, minister of the reformed church at Charenton at the Countess of Royes house in the presence of several persons of the first quality at the request of Mademoiselle de Duras, daughter to the famous Marshal de Turenne, she being then upon changing her religion / translated from the French copy, as it was lately published by Monsieur Claude.; Conference avec M. Claude minstre de charenton, sur la matier̀e de l'eǵlise. English	Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687.	1684 (1684)	Wing B3790; ESTC R15735	27,560	22

Scripture and I ask you by what principle that Child beleives the Scripture to be Divine that the Book of Canticles for Example where there 's not a Word spoke of God is divine Either that child that 's a Christian who has received the Holy Spirit and the Faith infused by Baptism and is a member of the Church doubts of the Divinity of the Scripture or does not doubt of it if not he beleives it then Divine by the Authority of the Catholick Church which is the first Authority under which he lives if he doubts of it a Christian may then doubt of the truth of the Scripture M. Claude made answer that he might have something to say upon M. de Condoms supposing that every child baptized received the Holy Spirit but that he would not insist upon what is spoken by the by nor deviate from the principal subject in question wherefore he 'd be contented with making some reflections upon what M. de Condom had just urg'd The first said he shall be that probably the first knowledge which the Holy Spirit gives to the Child of the Catholick Church is by his Creed wherein he says Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam Never theless in the Creed this Article is posteriour to the Articles of Doctrine since it begins with God the Father Almighty and continues with Jesus Christ and with the Holy Ghost after which comes the Catholick Church Now it appears clearly from thence that Faith of the Doctrine does not depend on the Authority of the Church for otherwise the symbole must have been compos'd after an other manner and say at first I beleive the Catholick Church and by the Catholick Church I beleive in God the Father c. My second Reflection said he is that you cannot suppose as you do that first authority under which the Child begins to live is that of the Catholick Church for certain it is that the first Authority under which a Child lives is that of his Father or that of his Mother or if you will that of his nurse and how that of the Church can only come afterwards and in some sort by dependance on th● other Now from thence it follows that this first Authority which is the Paterna may as well conduct the Child to the Scripture as to the Church In the third place said he there is nothing more easy then to retort your argument against your self Either the Child Baptized doubts of the Authority of the Church or does not doubt of it if he does not doubt of it he beleives it then by the authority of the Scripture for he cannot by any other way beleive it of Divine Faith and by consequence it is not the Church which makes us beleive Scripture but it is the Scripture which makes beleive the Church which is that we aim at If he doubts of it see here then a Christian who has received the Holy Spirit and Faith infused by Baptisme and who is a member of the Church who can doubt of the first authority on which depends the rest of the Faith That the Child cannot beleive of Divine Faith the Authority of the Church but by that of the Scripture I prove it for if it is not by the Scripture that he beleives the Church and its authority it is then either by way of inspiration and enthusiasm or by the Authority of his Father of his Mother or of his nurse or by argument drawn out of the very Nature of the Church It cannot be out of enthusiasme for the Holy Spirit does not act in that manner Neither can it be by the Authority of the Father or the Mother or Nurse for you see this would be to establish those sorts of authorities for the first principle of Faith neither can it be by proof and arguments drawn out of the very nature of the Church for as in your argument you suppose the Child has not yet read the Scripture I suppose also in mine that he has not yet Meditated upon the Nature of the Catholick Church and knows only its name It then remains that the Child believes the Catholick Church by Scripture which is what you do not allow off or does not beleive it at all and that he doubts it which is the same inconvenience you would have thrown me in in regard of the Scripture Here a body may say with truth that M. de Condoms Wit was not in its usual state and how that freedom which is natural to it was sensibly diminish'd He undertook to maintain that the first Authority under which a Child lived in respect of Religion was that of the Catholick Church and not that of the Father or Mother M. Claude replyed that there was no denying a thing so clear as that that the first Authority in respect of Religion is that of the Father or Mother who took the first care of the Education of the Child or that it was from them that the Child learnt the first time that there was a Catholick Church to which he ought to range himself or that there was a Scripture which was Divine and to which he ought to submit himself Now the point being to know by what means the child might believe the Authority of the Catholick Church he had only to chuse either the way of Enthusiasm or that of the Paternal Authority or that of the Scripture which might instruct him M. de Condom replyed the faith of the child in the Authority of the Church was divine because 't was the Holy Spirit that formed it in him M. Claude reparty'd that the thing in debate was not the cause efficient which produced that Faith in the child but the argument by which it was produced that if M. de Condom understood that the Holy Ghost produced it in the child without proof and without argument it would be a kind of Enthusiasm and yet the Holy Ghost did not act in that manner M. de Condom said that in effect there were Motives of credibility to which M. Claude replyed that if he gave the child time to examine the Motives of credibility by the Authority of the Church and to perceive the force of 'em he also would give the same child the time to examine the Motives of credibility for the Authority of the Scripture and to perceive the force of them and this being so he must renounce his argument which suppos'd the child as not yet having read the Scripture But is it not true said M. de Condom that in this state either the child doubts or does not doubt of the Divinity of the Scriptures But said M. Claude is it not true that in that state either the child doubts or does not doubt of the authority of the Church for if you suppose the child before his having read the Scripture I suppose him also before his having read the Motives of credibility for the authority of the Church You are obliged to answer to my argument and the same

shunning pride and presumption make men blind themselves for if there be not an absolute obedience owing to particular Doctors as M. de Condom did aver it there is then neither pride nor presumption in believing it may so happen that one may understand the sense of the Scripture better than them tho' people are obliged to presume Charitably probably that this will not happen That it was the same thing in regard of the Assemblies which not being of themselves infallible ought not to pretend to have an absolute obedience paid them being a thing which is only owing to God that St. Paul himself had said there was no dominion over the Faith of the Corinthians M. de Condom said this passage was ill alledged and ask'd M. Claude if he did not think an absolute Obedience was owing to Saint Paul M. Claude made answer that an absolute Obedience was owing to things divine which Saint Paul taught and not to his person neither is it said M. de Condom to the persons who compose the Councils we pretend that Obedience to be paid but to the Holy Spirit which conducts 'em according to what the Council of Jerusalem said it has pleas'd the Holy Spirit and us When the Holy Spirit said M. Claude appears in the Decisions of the Councils as it appeared in the Doctrine of Saint Paul and in that of the Council of Jerusalem we ought to render them that Obedience and not otherwise Now it appears therein when their decisions are framed according to the Word of God M. de Condom insisted there was no question about the Word of God but about the true sense thereof M. Claude said t●is distinction was of no use for the true sense of the Word of God and the Word of God are but one and the same thing There M. de Condom return'd to the Independants and said that upon the principle of M. Claude there was no way to avoid Independantisme nor prevent the being as many Religions as Parishes as many Religions as heads That the Independants did not reject the Assemblies for instructions but that they would not allow the Assemblies should decide by authority and that the pretended reformed were conformable to them He repeated over and over the same thing a pretty while to which M. Claude reparteed what he had already answered that in truth there was no humane means certain and infallible to hinder the errors of the with of man but that there was one divine and infallible which was the Holy Spirit which God communicated to his true Beleivers and that the Synods and other Assemblies were useful means and proper for that purpose and that the Independants had only been condemned because they rejected these last and not because they would not allow the Assemblies should decide with an entire and absolute authority that tho' the Protestants did not allow Assemblies a soveraign and illimited authority they allowed them however all the authority that Ministers and the Dispensers of the Word of God can have This would be disputing everlastingly said then M. de Condom I ask you once again Sir if you believe meer particular Persons can understand the sense of the Word of God better than the whole Church Assembled in a Council M. Claude said he had already answered him to that viz. that it did not commonly so happen nay and that People were obliged to hope better from the Ecclesiastical Assembly but that it might nevertheless happen that humane passions and worldly interests prevailing in an Assembly the Decisions would not be squared therein according to the truth There 's no having recourse said M. de Condom to humane passions nor to worldly interests you must answer in a word to the question and say yes or no. Humane passions and worldly interests said M. Claude are very reasonably urg'd upon this subject for those are the principal causes of erroneous Decisions but since you will not allow 'em to be spoken off to you I le answer you by distinguishing and saying that God does not allow that this ordinarily happens but that in absolutely speaking it may happen M. de Condom said he demanded but that and how 't was the greatest of all absurdities to beleive it may come to pass a meer particular person may better understand the sense of the Scripture better than a whole Church Assembled in Council M. Claude made answer how he wondered he should tax us of so great an absurdity what was but an effect of the freedom of God in the dispensation of his Grace That if the point was concerning humane Lights there would be absurdity in saying that a meer particular person had more understanding than a whole Assembly and that this would be a principle of pride and presumption But tho the thing in issue was the Lights of the Holy Spirit which breathes where it pleases and which God may possibly not give to a whole Assembly when he shall give it to meer particular persons that this same thing had effectually hapned in the time of Jesus Christ according to what he himself had said in Matt. I give thee thanks O Father Lord of Heaven and Earth for that thou hast concealed those things from the Wise and Vnderstanding and hast revealed them to the little That the whole Judaick Church had determined in its Assemblies that Jesus Christ was an impostour That it was nevertheless not only a Church out the only Church in the world invested with all the authority of God who had founded nourished and brought it up untill that time that God had instructed it by his Apostles had made in the depositary of his Oracles That with a just Title it gloryed in a succession of two thousand years that its Assemblies were in the former and Jesus Christ Himself own'd it they are seated said he in the Chair of Moses all the things they shall bid you keep keep them and do them That nevertheless this Church had determined the most Capital and most Criminal of all Errours which was to reject Jesus Christ as a wretched person and an impostour that then it must necessarily have been said that meer particular persons might better understand the sense of the Scripture than the whole Body of the Church Assembled and that if the principle of M. de Condom was true namely that one must have an absolute submission for the Decisions of Ecclesiastical Assemblies without attributing to ones self the right examining 'em it would be to condemn Jesus Christ and all those who should beleive in him For according to this Principle Jesus Christ ought not to address himself to the People after the Decisions of the Church which were contrary to him neither ought the People to have given ear to him since they were no longer allow'd to examine what had been decided nevertheless added he I. C. did not forbare preaching to the People and converting several the People also listened to his motion notwithstanding the Decisions that were

answer you shall make me I shall make you you may take what course you please but I 'le be sure to answer you directly to your reasoning now the child must be distinguish'd in three times before his father has shew'd him the Bible and told him that this Book is Divine after his Father has told him so without his having yet read it himself after he has read it himself At the first time which is that wherein you consider him in your argument there 's no saying he doubts or does not doubt for neither the one nor the other is true in the sense you understand it Not to doubt of a thing signifies to be assured of it Now before a body can say either that one doubts or is assured of the Quality of a thing one must know the thing it self I do not doubt nor am I assured that such a person is the King of Spain until first I have had some knowledg of the Person Wherefore your argument is not just either the child doubts or does not doubt of the divinity of the Scripture there 's a Medium namely which is called an ignorance of pure negation He knows not yet what Scripture is never having heard talk of it To doubt or not to doubt of the divinity of the Scripture a man must have some knowledg of it and frame to himself some idea at least of it But the child does not frame to it any idea of a Book whereof he never heard any mention in the second time when his Father has shewed him the Bible and told him this Book is is the word of God yet without his having yet read it himself He beleives it the Word of God He beleives it the Word of God not of Divine Faith but of Humane Faith because his Father told him so which is a state of Catechumene In the third time when he has read himself this Book and perceives the Efficaciousness of it he believes it the Word of God no longer by Humane Faith because his Father has told him so but by Divine Faith because he himself has immediately perceived the Divinity of it and it is the state of the faithful M. de Condom fastned upon this word Catechumene and said that the child was a Christian was baptized and was in the Allyance of God M. Claude made answer that by the word Catechumene he meant only the child baptized in the state he received the first instructions M. de Condom repeated again much the same things he had said still affirming 't was by the authority of the Church that the child received the Scriptures as Divine and after having received them from the Church as Divine he received also from the Church their sense and interpretation Tell me I beseech your Lordship said then M. Claude When a Child learns the first time there is a Catholick Church is it simply a general Idea which only consists in knowing there is a Catholick Church without knowing where it is or what it is Or does it determine that Church whose Assemblies it sees For if it be the first it is a principle of Faith very insignificant very useless which you establish I know there is a Catholick Church to whose authority People ought to submit themselves but I know not where it is or what it is this would be a strange principle of Faith True said M. de Condom the Child determines this Idea to that Church particularly whose Assemblies it sees or assists at it self and beleives it to be the Catholick Church and not simply there is one Let us then suppose said M. Claude a child born in a Heretick or Schismatick Church in the Ethiopian Church for example the first principle of Faith this child will entertain will be that of the Ethiopian Church as being the Catholick It will be from it and according to its authority that he will receive the Scripture as Divine from it 't will be he 'll receive the sence explication of that Scripture and he can never believe he has a right to examine the Decisions of his Ethiopian Church for fear of falling into the inconvenience of imagining he may better understand the sense of the Scripture he a meer particular person than the whole Body of the Church Tell me My Lord Whether by this principle the child will not always remain in that Heretical and Schismatical Church Tell me by what way you pretend to free him out of it Certain then it is your Principle is equally proper to maintain the Jew in Judaisme the Pagan in Paganism the Hereticke in Heresy as the Orthodox in the true Church M. de Condom replied to this that one was to distinguish in the persuasion of the Ethiopian child what came from the Holy Ghost from what came by humane prepossession that 't was the Holy Ghost which dictated to him in general there was a Catholick Church in what place soever it was but that this Catholick Church was that where he was born this came from humane prepossession That in truth he received the Scripture from the hand of that Church and did not believe it divine but by its authority but afterwards by reading the Scripture the Holy Spirit produced in him doubts against the Church of his Birth and from that means freed him from the Heresy and the Schism wherein he was engaged M. Claude made answer that either M. de Condom must renounce his principle or own the impossibility of what he urg'd For since this Ethiopian in dispute cannot nor ought not to understand the Scripture but in the sense of the Church by the authority of which he beleives it divine and from whose hand he receives it's interpretation it is impossible that by reading the Scripture there should arise any doubts in his mind contrary to the truth of his Church for he only explains that Scripture conformably to the sense of that Church But if on the contrary you mean this man should explain of himself the Scripture and takes it ●n an other sense than his Church does you make him said he renounce your princiciple for which you have hitherto combated and you not only make him renounce it but you establish that it is the Holy Spirit himself which makes him renounce it and all the inconveniences which you have so exaggerated vanish into smoak he added that what M. de Condom had just said justified the proceedings of the Protestants in respect of the Roman Church for tho' it were it which we ought to have beleived from our birth to have been the Catholick Church tho' it were by it and its authority that we should have received the Scripture as divine we cannot be blamed for having distinguish'd in that Beleif what was of the Holy Spirit from what proceeded from humane prepossession We cannot be blamed for having in reading the Scripture received doubts contrary to the truth of that Church and for having freed our selves by that means from out