first how vnwares he speaketh contrarie to him selfe He confesseth flatly that this negatiue of S. Gregorie wherin he denieth any ought to be vniuersall Bishop is in defence of the truth Yet Maister Harding in the fourth article goeth about to proue that the pope is vniuersal B. so by his own confession he goeth about to proue a lye Secondarely he confesseth at the last that Maister Cranmar was a Byshop and Maister Iuell with other his felowes are Bishops yet at other times he and his fellowes wil in no case graunt it Thirdly he saith no B. of Sarisburie was a Caluinist before Maister Iuell and that is a manifest lye Fourthly that no Byshop of Canterbury was maried before Cranmar and that is an otherlie So in al this former péece either he speaketh nothing but lyes or if it be true it is such truth as by open writing he hath impugned But Maister Harding bicause he can not deny this contrarietie he will bid vs proue the other that any B. of Sarisbury hath bene of one religion with Caluin or that any B. of Cant. hath bene maried In déede this is the ground of their whole religion bold asseuerations without any manner warrant and then they bid vs proue the contrary But although this vnequall dealing be not good and he that teacheth anye thing shoulde proue the same to be true yet I am content for truthes sake to reproue in fewe woordes these negatiues of Maister Hardings First this forbidding mariage was vniuersally established by Pope Siluester the seconde who was made Pope by the meanes and woorking of the deuil as their own writers confesse in the yeare of our Lord 980. Yet I graunt through the folly of vnlearned bishops about .400 yeares after Christ matrimonie in the cleargy began to be misliked especially in the West church For in the East church they made no account of it yea they thought it was no hinderaunce to the minister for perfourmance of his dutie in Gods church But as I haue said the West church in many places forbad it And S. Ierom although in many places he speake reuerently and well of it yet in some places vpon his owne priuate affection he misliketh it But as touching this purpose more then thre hundred yeares after Christ Priestes mariage was thought verie lawfull But the English men receiued the faith of Christ in the latter time of Nero as Gildas witnesseth an olde writer and a Britan who liued in the yeare of our Lord .580 and will Maister Harding say that the thing being lawfull yet in .300 yeare togither there was neuer a Byshop maried And let Mayster Harding héere make no exception either that in those dayes ther was no Byshops of Canterbury or Sarisbury or that Gildas auctority is not good Theodoretus saith that S. Paule him selfe preached héere in his latter time Nicephorus and other moe say they receiued the fayth in the yere of our Lord 63. by Ioseph of Arimathia After this supersticion began againe to bréede then an .179 many preachers were sent for to call them againe to their former profession Whervpō Tertullian speaking of this age saith Britānorum inaccessa Romanis loca Christo fuerin◠subdita And Petrus Cluniacensis speaking of the Scots calleth them christianos antiquiores the most auncient christian men And the story is knowen how Lucius then King of England was very diligent in setting out the Gospell Thus it appeareth the true faith hath bene in Englande almost euer since our sauiour Christ died Now y t in those daies ther wer bishops in Englād it is likewise manifest When Eleutherius the Pope 177. sent preachers into England they found here .3 called archiflamines and .25 called flamines which he turned in to thrée archbishops .25 byshops Thus much then is clere that in England were Christian bishops and they might mary Now to proue that they were maried it is plaine by Gildas in the latter ende of his booke where he reproueth the Bishops their wiues and their children So this lying negatiue of M. Harding is reproued that sayth no Bishop was euer maried in England before Bishop Cranmer For the other negatiue that there was neuer B. of Sarisburie of that religion which Caluine taught it appeareth by M. Iuels Replie which sheweth that not onely in England but in all Christendome that religion was in the chiefest articles professed And yet bicause it is here brought with the suretie of M. Hardings warrant we wyll speake a little of this negatiue It is boldlye auouched of manye popish Priestes that Christianitie was placed here by Augustine which is called the Englishe Bishop He was sent from Rome and landed in the Ile of Tenet in Kent an 596. But it is alredy shewed that we had the faith of Christ long before Then what did Augustine here I will tell thée Christian Reader and I wyll tell thée that which M. Harding shall nener be able to confute He did first perswade the King and Quéene not to enforce his new religion but to leaue it fréely to men to follow if they would Afterward being made Bishop of Canterburie by consent of a Synode he thrust into that Church altars vestiments images Masses challices crosses candlesticks ▪ sensers banners processions holy water holy bread funerals tithes and such other stuffe whych before that time was neuer séene in England Then he changed their kéeping of Easter day taught them manye ceremonies in Baptisme and when he coulde not bring all men to his diet he moued great persecution against such as defended the libertie of the Church Then he receiued from Rome relickes of diuers Saintes buylt a Monasterie to Saint Peter wrought many fained miracles and so at the last he died about the yeare of our Lord .610 Now for further proofe of this that Augustine marred and not made our religion it is verye probable that we neuer receiued our faith from Rome but from the East Church First bicause we vntill Augustine came among vs kept our Easter after the manner of the Gréeke Church Now it is well knowen what mortall hatred there was for that matter so that he which was enstructed of the one would in no wyse vse the order of the other Agayne when Augustine should be sent vnto them he came backe for feare and the Britaines would not receaue him nor acknowledge anye authoritie of Pope Gregorie ouer them Which sure they would neuer haue done if they had receaued theyr fayth from Rome Thus much then followeth we had the faith of the Gréeke Church without all superstitious ceremonies of the Church of Rome and so it is manifest our bishops were then of Maister Caluines profession in the whole substaunce of their religion And so is this other negatiue of M. Harding prooued a lye This I haue sayd the more at large bicause M. Hardyng and his fellowes woulde haue vs beleue that our faith came from the Pope and Dan Augustine
iustifie them or were not silence the best aunswere to so great folies Let the Reader iudge The B. of Saris. If no bodie receiued then is it not true that some receiued Harding The .196 vntruth Chrisostome saith not that some receiued Dering If the last vntruthe were not worth the noting then what store hath he that is faine to number it twice Yet so it is this purposed number hath driuen M. Harding to such inconuenience The former vntruthe was Chrisostome said not some receiued with the priest this is he saith not some receiue if he would make the third that some receiue not with it had euen as good reason as either of these But let these vntruthes alone they cannot doe much harme Onely I must admonish thée that after this long ado with Maister Iuel Maister Harding for his exercise will fights little with him selfe Here he saith that Chrisostome saith not that some receiue yet out of this same place of Chrisostome alleaging these wordes Cum timore dei et fide et dilectione accedite he doeth english them thus come you vp to receiue with the feare of God c. These cōtrary sayings without one vntruth cannot be reconciled If there he wel translated it come vp to receiue then this is no vntruth If this be vntrue then that was a false translation One of these can not be denied The B. of Saris. He saith the people in the Cities were daylie taught by sermons Harding The .197 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering Maister Harding by like doth say and vnsay and careth not what he say These are his verie wordes Now if Chrisostome had cause to complaine of the peoples slacknesse in that great and populous citie of Antioche where the scriptures were daily expounded and preached c. And here I say as Maister Harding saith let his booke be iudge And why then is this vntruth scored vp with other Would he haue vs think that this preaching were onely in Antioche and no where else This might well be if papistrie hadde ben then in vre and preaching not regarded But to think it of that world in which good religion florished and Gods word was plentifull it is an vncharitable gessing Thus much I speake graunting Maister Hardings wordes that in Antioche the people were daily taught And then if it were so the same vse had ben likewise kept in other cities so Maister Hardings owne wordes going for true this can be no vntruth but how true those wordes are Maister Iuel doeth sufficiently proue reade his Replie he doeth alleage Chrysostomes owne wordes to proue that in Antioche they had sermons but once a wéeke and therevpon he saith further thus The B. of Saris. I note this not for that I mislike of daily preaching but for that vntruth so boldelie presumed should not passe vntouched Harding The .198 vntruth It is no vntruth Dering I am sorie to trouble the reader with aunswering to so vaine vntruthes but so it is if nothing should be said they would be thought of some force Maister Harding vseth this reason to proue his priuate Masse In Antiochie there was but a verie few to communicate sometime Therfore in the countrey belike there was priuate Masse Of this argument Maister Iuel saith thus to aduaunce the citie to abase the countrey he saith in cities they had dayly sermons but this is vntrue For in Antioche they had not so Now rise M. Hardings two vntruthes 1. I say not they were taught so in cities 2. They were taught so in Antioche Who could haue scraped out these vntruthes but he Or what force is there in them For this second vntruth where he still affirmeth they had dayly preaching in Antioche that is a very false lie and yet how impudently doth be persist in it The B. of Saris. Yet saith Maister Harding in small countrey churches either the Priest let cease the dayly sacrifice or else he receiued alone Harding The .199 vntruth I say not so This is altogether falsified Dering I pray God Maister Harding be not altogether without grace He so vnreuerently speaketh euill of authoritie so boldely denieth his owne sayings that his cause is much to be feared Marke here Maister Iuels wordes I will lay M. Hardings wordes with them then iudge whether here be any vntruth Thus he writeth of such countrey churches it must be sayd that either the sacrifice ceased c. Or that the memorie of our Lords death was oftentimes celebrated of the Priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for others to communicate with them Marke now how Maister Iuel chaungeth these wordes either the daily sacrifice ceased saith Maister Harding either the priest let cease the daily sacrifice saith Maister Iuell What is here falsified If it dyd cease the Priest ceased it For I trow the lay man might not say Masse if he would The other péece of Maister Hardings saying is this or else the memorie of our Lords death was often times celebrated of the priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for other to communicate with them These many words bicause oftedious writing Maister Iuell reporteth this or the priest receiued alone Now iudge of this place which Maister Harding saith is altogether falsified and praye that Maister Harding may once haue eies to sée The .200 vntruth Here Maister Harding noteth an vntruth in the margin that is not in the text When he telleth vs what it is we will better examine it The B. of Saris. The Masse that is so glorious can neither be founde in churches nor chappels Harding It is found both in churches and chappels Dering It is not yet found neither in church nor chappell within .600 yeares of Christ. The B. of Saris. Thus saith Chrysostome if thou stand by and not receiue thou art malapert thou art shamelesse thou art impudēt 2. thine eies be vnworthie the sight herof vnworthie be thine eares 3. O thou wilt say I am vnworthie to be partaker of the holie mysteries then art thou vnworthie to be partaker of the praiers 4. Thou maist no more stay here than an heathen that ueuer was christened Harding The .202 vntruthe Chysostome doeth not say these vvordes The .203 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not then an heathen vnchristened Dering Sure good Reader the numbring of these vntruthes is verie straunge here is one Chrysostome saith not these wordes an other he saith not then an heathen c. I would faine know here in the first vntruth what Maister Harding meaneth by these words If he meane the whole sentence why maketh he an other truth If he meane all the sentence going before this latter vntruth why doeth he not make of it thrée seuerall vntruthes For it is distinguished into thrée seuerall sentences or if he think but one of those sentences is false why doeth he not tell vs which it is Certaine it is Maister Harding did know that these former partes of this allegation were all true
doth not direct your goyngs and therefore you make suche often reaches at hatred What preiudice should Maister Iuell bring vnto your cause which of it selfe is weake and of all Godly men forsaken What harme vnto your person whose returne should be his exceding ioye and whose obstinacy is the encrease of his commendations Bicause say you in the person of an other he putteth you in remembrance from whence you be fallen Why M. Harding are you offended to heare of your euyll doyng Uerilye the wise man sayth He that refuseth instruction despyseth his own soule But what speaketh this person whom you meane vnto M. Harding not long since c. O custome of euill speaking what a pleasure doost thou bring vnto the euill disposed person We haue hearde often of Maister Iuells raiâ—inges and scoffings euery leafe of his vncourteous dealing a long common place of his bitter kinde of writing After so much a doo seing there will be required some proofe he séeketh busylye and when he can finde none he maketh the greatest leape though there be many very wyde that is in the reioinder euen out of this preface quite ouer the Replie in to the conclusion and there he hath found a poore man which asketh a question which hath set him in these fiery passions what is there in such manner dealing but either singular impudeÌ„ce or extreme foly Beare yet with him good Reader Barre him of these leapings and all his pastime is done But let vs heare what Maister Harding can aunswere to this poore man Thus Maister Iuell maketh him speake vnto Maister Harding Not long since you taught them of our side the Gospell euen in like sorte and fourme as it is tought now Here Maister Harding bicause he can make no good aunswere thinketh it not amisse to stop this pore mans mouth with a litle sophestrie You taught vs sayth this poore man the Gospell By this saith Maister Harding you doo vs to wéete what your gospell is and wherin it consisteth Blame not this poore man though he can say no more I haue béen a scholar almost this twentye yeares and yet I can not sée what this aunswere meaneth They must be Lâ—nces eyes and such as can looke through milstones that can sée this conclusion very déepe cogitations must go so far into sentences and a man had néede of a warme nightcap that should folow them But seyng we can get no better aunswer the poore mans saying shall stande still for true and Maister Hardings obscure gatherings shall verifie the coÌ„mon saying that it is better to saye nothing then to holde ones peace In the ende Maister Harding denieth that he euer spake these woordes wherby he doth empayre his credit in all other matters Let the Christian reader for his contentation when time and occasion may serue enquire of any that then liued in Oxâ—orde This simple way may not countervaile so many witnesses Hardyng ¶ To answere to the matter simply and truly as before God I will not here for my better excuse accuse the will of the Prince in whose dayes I was brought vp in learning the ernest endeuour of the Gouernours then being to satisfie his desires the crueltye of the lawes the yeelding of all in generall except a very fewe the great silence of preachers that then durst not teach necessaries the common ignorance of men Omittingâ— all these which I might bring for some part of excuse I am content for truthes sake freely to accuse my selfe In certaine points I was deceiued I confesse by Caluin Melancthon and a few others as you by them and sundrye others are nowe deceiued in many Dering Now he commeth to the simple and true aunswere for hys turning but he turneth so many members in one sentence that he turneth all sense quite out of the periode Perhappes he thinketh he speakes to the poore man againe therefore he speaketh in riddles Or if it bee not so the truth I trowe breaketh out And againe he accuseth the iniquitie of those dayes but his darke hart cannot abide the light straight he starteth backe againe and is content to take the fault vnto him selfe bicause all other excuses are vayne and vngodlye And as well as he can in so great a storme he runneth vnder the couering of S. Augustines auctoritie but it may not helpe him sithe their turnings are not like Saint Augustine turned from traditions vnto scripture but he turneth from the scripture vnto traditions Againe S. Augustine turned from the vayne trust that he had in man vnto the sure confidence that is fixed in Christ. But he is slidden away euen from Christ to sée how farre men haue established hys aucthoritie This is true as his own conscience doth iudge and hys writings doe testifie when vnder the name of the Churche he gâ—eth from the woord of God Therefore is his turning neyther modestie nor repentance but a shamelesse falling away and an obstinate forsaking of God God giue him grace herein to iudge him selfe that in the day of wrath he be not iudged of the Lord. Harding ¶ Now as to confesse this much truth requireth so to acknowledge your false reportes wisdome forbiddeth Them would I haue also not let to coÌ„fesse if I wist God were delited with our lies Wher then you say I taught your Gospell euen in like sorte and forme in al respects as it is taught now that I deny vtterly In dede I hobde and roued sometimes but your pricks I euer tooke to be to farre for me to shoote at Neither trulye coulde I see the marke that you M. Iuell and suche as you are shot at it was so farre of and therefore I stoode out and shot smaller game Dering Now after this confession made you go as you say from the truth to your wisdome and tel vs in what sorte you preached the Gospell You say you hobde and roued but you neuer shot at any certaine marke Why were you one of Baals prophets that haulted on both sides that woulde serue both God and Mammon too That eate meate with the Gentiles and yet dissemble it before the Iewes The waueryng is vnconstant in all his wayes and bicause thou art neyther hoate nor colde I will spue thée out of my mouth sayth the Lord This hobbing was the cause that you fell agayne to your vomit And this rouing euer since made your shooting vncertaine You could not sée the marke that M. Iuell shootes at the vale of colde deuotion was before your eyes You looked euen now like an Eagle in the poore mans question But nowe you haue oyled your blere eyes that you can not sée Christ. God lighten your eyes that you sléepe not styll in death You stoode without you say and shot smaller game in déede you shot such game as was not worth your labour At the imaginations of mans brayne you roued so muche vncertainly that you shoote yet now beating the ayre Therfore haue you eyes and sée not c. There be
it is doubtlesse an abhominable lie foreged out of secrecy bicause it should not be coÌ„uinced by witnesse But it shal not be a misse bicause this thing coÌ„meth to question to note what M. Iuell might saye and what the Prince must doe It is not vnknowen what authoritie hath bene giuen vnto the Pope that he hath rule both of heauen and earth and he that taketh one iote of this authoritie from that church is an hereticke And that he may not be iudged as Pope Boniface hath decreed though he drawe innumerable soules headlong into hell and that he hath all knowledge in the closet of his brest that he can dispence against the Apostles and against the old testament and that we must abide the yoke that the Pope layeth vpon vs though it be intollerable and that seate is apostolica sublimitas euen as high as the Apostles and that quicquid statuit quicquid ordinat what soeuer the Pope appointeth what soeuer he ordeineth perpetuo irrefragabiliter obseruandum est it must be obserued for euer without any contradiction Suche blasphemous authority giuen vnto the Pope made that in the time of restoring the Gospell euen good men attributed more vnto the Prince then was conuenient and flatterers more then was to be borne with all as in the time of the sixe articles Bishop Gardiner and his felowes did vnto King Henry the eight when they gaue him authority in the church of God to institute or disanull Lawes as it lyked him best to forbid the mariage of ministers to deny the people the cup in the Lords supper The graunting of such authority is flattery in the subiect the receiuing it presumption in the Prince The church is y e spouse of Christ purchased with his precious bloud and ioyned vnto him euen as a woman vnto hir husbande The Prince is héere a subiect and may set the church no Lawes but as hir heade appointed Christ doth sanctifye his church with the washing of water through the worde that is with baptisme and the preaching out our iustification in his frée mercy if the Prince say it shall be sanctified with crossing and créeping with diredges and Trentalls with holy Breade and holy Water with Pilgrimage and Bonfiers the Prince is rebellious and the Subiect must yéelde his lyfe Then for a briefe conclusion if the Prince wil make any new holynes or forbid the minister to preach y e word that is written or if he will say we shall Prophecie no more at Bethel bicause it is the Kings chapple and bicause it is the kings Courte it lyeth not in his authority Wo be vnto the Prince that shall be so led with errour But if the Princes will doe nothing but she will aske councell at the mouth of God if she will humble hir selfe vnder him as low as the poorest creature in the world if she will set out his glory and â—â—presse the wicked blasphemyes of the honorable if Christ crucified for hir sinnes be alwayes pictured before the eyes of hir soule then shall she runne a happy course and in the end haue a happier garlande If she shoulde héere of enimies hir owne conscience shoulde make hir without feare if all iniquitie should stirre vs to rebellion she should sit vnmoueable The Lord hath placed hir and who is he shall put hir downe She is a good nourse of Christes misticall body and no authority is alone hereof yet in all this supremacy we tye hir vnto the worde of God and as she hath regard vnto hir owne soule in the name of hir God we charge hir not to go beyonde it In this is hir prerogatiue that she can inforce other to this obedience and no man can enforce hir This supremacye Maister Iuell did neuer deny the popish supremacy no good man will grauÌ„t Let it then be contemned wherwith Maister Harding maketh vp this tragedy that we teach one thing at home an other thing abroade After this vsuall inuention he frameth a little Philosophy of his owne and then furthereth it on Epicure wherwith he faineth his comparison Now let the indifferent reader iudge which of these is the wauering man Maister Iuell that in his life hath gone not one hower backe or Maister Harding that many yeares hath preached contrary doctrine Doutlesse had he liued in Seuerus time notwithstanding this long apology his armour shoulde haue ben pulled off and he left naked in token of an apostata and his aduersary commended that in all his lyfe hath ben founde so constant Hardyng ¶ What fault so euer you finde with my chauÌ„ge certaine it is al chaungs be not reproueable He chauÌ„geth wel that chaungeth from euil to good It is a happy chaunge that is made from errour to truth from schisme to vnitie from heresie to right faith from contempt of Religion to the loue of Religion from darkenesse to light from pride to humilitie from pleasing men to study how to please God Who so euer maketh this chaunge he is not to be accompted mutable nor inconstant Dering Hitherto Maister Harding can not deny his turning now least it should preiudice his estimation he thinketh good to commend it true it is he turneth well that turneth for the best it is better to returne then to run alwayes euill but whether you haue made this turne or no it must be tryed not by your worde but by the truth of God The Prophet Dauid doeth aske the question how one shoulde turne aright and doth aunswere him selfe by taking héede vnto Gods worde Now I appeale to Maister Hardings conscience what part the worde of God did worke in his turning he maketh continuall crying out of the church the church but very déepe silence of the worde of God Yet Christ saith heauen and earth shal passe before his word do passe S. Paule saith We may not beleue an Angell that preacheth any other doctrine S. Iames saith It is the word that can saue our soules S. Peter saith It is as sure as the voice of God him selfe that was herd from heauen and what meane these men vnder a vaine title of the church so to neglect it Christ promised to be with his church vntill the latter end of the world but his word is his presence not mans inuentions his Euangelies are our learning not supersticious ceremonies The dayes are now come that we shall say no more the arke of the couenaunt of the Lord but by Christ alone we must make our prayers and by him alone offer vp the sacrifice of praise vnto God that is the fruit of our lippes which confesse his name Therfore if you will make a good turne you must turne to that church which turneth only vnto him and to the simplicity of his Gospell But you haue put on the adulterous attire of straunge intercession and clothed hir selfe with altares and altare clothes with Copes vestimentes Awbes Tunicles Curtaines Sensors Candlestickes Crosses and such other You are
not turned from errour to faith but from the church of God to the synagoge of the deuill And for our owne defence with the prophet Dauid we make aunswere vnto the blasphemers Our trust is in the worde of God After this Maister Harding findeth fault with to much constancye and considering his owne changes woulde haue it seme some commendation to turne vp and downe a little Then he bringeth in the examples of Arrius and certaine heretickes which in their owne opinion were founde to obstinate and compareth Maister Iuell with them in wilfulnesse and otherwise speaketh contumeously against him and for all this will be iudged by his Reioinder Nowe consider good Reader what maner of wryting this is In long talke before he required that his doings might be wayed and doubted not but Maister Iuell should be founde the more vnconstant Then fearing that he coulde not colour the great difference betwen them excuseth his own turning as though he had done well Now that his writings might be as vnconstant as his lyfe hath ben he ouerthroweth quite his first accusation and confesseth that Maister Iuell hath ben as obstinate as euer was Arrius or any hereticke which had rather dye then in any point to seme to relent If this be true wher is all that a doe which was made about the sixe articles and I know not about what subscription O M. Harding oportet mendacem esse memorem it behoueth a lyer to be mindfull Giue Lord vnderstanding and M. Hardings writings shall néede no aunswere one leafe doth confute an other Concerning these examples which he vseth it appeareth that as in these tragedies he hath set apart al honesty so in mani places he hath more shew than learning How can this saying agrée with it selfe some had leuer suffer death then to séeme at any time to haue ben out of the way they vse examples of Arius Macedonius Nestorius Eutyches Did not diuers Arians subscribe in the Councell of Nice and made open protestation that Arrius held the same fayth which the Councell set out And did not Arrius himselfe make the same profession both in woord and writing vnto Constantinus the Emperour after his return vnto Constantinople Did not Macedonius so vse the matter with Alexander B. of Constantinople that when he dyed he commended him to be his successour and after set vp by the Arrians and deposed by the Emperour dyd he not quite forsake his Arrian heresie Did not Eutyches cited to the Councell of Constantinople send one in his roome to subscribe to the fayth of the Ephesine and Nicene Councels Did not Nestorius cry in the open councell at Ephesus Dicatur Maria Deipara cesset haec molestia let Marye be called the Mother of God and let this trouble cease Thys I haue shewed that it might appeare howe fitlie M. Harding doth apply hys examples Now hys writings standing thus sometime without learning often ill agréeing and most commonly wythout honestie what skilleth it in this behalfe if the Reioynder sit in iudgement They say a scabbie horse is good ynough for a scaule Squire Harding ¶ I say not onely as you do in your preface but in this Reioynder I do manifestly proue in due place some Doctours by you to be vntruly alleadged some corruptly translated some peruersly expounded some guilefullye applyed their wooâ—des sometimes abbridged sometymes enlarged sometimes altered sometimes dissembled With these false sleightes you burthen me in word with the same here I haue charged you in dede Sundry auncient fathers which you deny by good authority I haue auouched Your own childish argumeÌ„ts falsly and fondly by your selfe deuised and fathered vpon me I haue wholy contemned and so returned them vnto you againe For the .45 Vntruthes which you pretend to haue noted in my aunswere touching your first Article I haue returned vpon you .225 noted in your Replie of the same Article Those which you impute vnto me be now already partely and maye shortly be iustified And therfore proued not to be vntruthes at all Yours you shall neuer iustifie When you attempt it you shall do it but with a multiplication of infinite other vntruthes Dering Now M. Harding as he is wittie séeing it is not all golde which he hath made to glister and fearing least hys colours might be rubbed away from his writing vpon good courage sayth boldly he hath spoken nothing which he will not prooue in his Reioynder Much after such a sorte began Cyclicus the Poet fortunam priami caâ—â—abo nobile bellum and when Cyclicus hath made an ende of his Iliades M. Harding shall be as good as his woord He chargeth M. Iuel with corrupting the fathers yet in all this Reioynder as appeareth by hys vntruthes he is not able to conuince one authoritie of falsehood He sayth there is no proofe in M. Iuels Preface yet in his own Epistle here is neither truth nor honestie The childish arguments he will passe ouer with silence So he doth in déede many of them and a great péece of thys first article beside Where no shew of aunswere may be had silence can do least harme But Maister Harding though he saye it yet perhaps will not sticke much in this Upon entreaty he will yéelde vnto vs true allegations of the Doctours and will sticke to take vnto him his Arguments againe but touching the .44 vntruthes in that he will neuer yéeld They are all iustified and shall be iustified and .225 returned vpon Maister Iuell which shall neuer be aunswered and if we but attempt it we shall but multeply moe Untruthes But softe good Reader be not a fearde of vanity I remember a certaine Lacedemonian that when he sawe one tying togither longe circumstaunces of speach Now I make God a vowe sayde he this is a hardy man that when he hath no reason yet can roll his tongue so handsomely and what other is this of M. Hardings but tongue rolling his owne Untruthes he saith are all iustified Yet Maister Stapleton confesseth that in one place Maister Harding was ouerséene I haue returned saith he 225. vntruthes yet he hath turned some one of theÌ„ .7 times If he had serued them so all he had returned aboue fiftene hundred and these as he saith can not be aunswered without multiplying of mo vntruthes How true this is let the reader iudge Sure for my part if it be so I will reuoke that I haue written But this I must forewarne them I doe not take it for vntrue to say their Pope is Antichrist and their Masse Idolatrous and their church a sinagogue of iniquitye If otherwise I make any vntruth â–ª either in misconstring the worde of God or falsifying other mens authoritye by Gods grace when I shall vnderstande it I will reuoke it but my conscience is yet cleare I haue written nothing deceitfully Harding ¶ Sith it is thus the best aduise I can giue you is first to consider better of these matters and to call to
vntruthe Then thus hang these vntruthes If this last be true that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers the thirde is true that it intendeth not Transubstantiation And the second is true that it hath no suche intent as the Church of Rome hath and the first is true that these churches are not resolued in this intent Now consider I beséeche thée good Reader what manner of vntruthes these are that notwithstanding their great number are yet so smal in value that if but one be proued true all .iiij. must be graūted Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs and rouers yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe and his whole commendation is no more worthe than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies For proofe of this last vntruthe on which the other hang we haue the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel where it is shewed that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced this is my body they make this prayer fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest that these wordes this is my body being pronounced before did not worke Transubstantiation But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered we wil say somwhat of them in order euen as M. Harding noteth them and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other First saith M. Harding the Church is resolued on the Priests entent But that is very false For the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome haue not one intēt The Greke Church as is said doth consecrate with prayers The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing than of Consecration The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to haue more regarde of Consecration than of the worthy receiuing I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite This is inough to proue our purpose Secondarily saithe M. Harding the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation What he entended in this vntruthe I know not For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent Thirdly saith M. Harding the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances First y t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation Againe that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation And thirdly y t they two intende one thing when M. Harding with all his wrangling can make these vntruthes agrée sure we wil subscribe Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence whether it may appeare by it that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation Thus it stoode When the Latines in that assembly required that they might entreate of transubstantiation The Grekes made answere sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus without the consent of all the East Church we can meddle with no other question c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple he must thinke thus muche If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike as they will make vs beleue how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell And againe if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike and were resolued in it what meant they that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion sure this was their meaning they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise and therefore they would ▪ not yelde vnto it And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes The B. of Saris. The .13 Diuision But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse Harding The .101 vntruthe Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse Dering But he should proue priuate Masse or else what maketh he héere For of that the question is moued And this is a very hard case that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose The B. of Saris. Neither may we thinke that Christes body must grossely and bodily be receiued into our bodies Harding The .102 vntruthe We must beleue it Dering As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion and is fallen againe to Poperie so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie This is one of the chiefest articles for which we haue forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche As ofte as we repeate this we conclude the thing which lieth in controuersie betwene vs. This is our professed opinion and vpon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie if it be proued against vs Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe Then what meaneth maister Harding Or what maner of vntruthe is this Or who can accompte it for true and plaine dealing when vpon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe He shal doe well to reproue it before he make anymoe vntruthes of this Reade the .104 vntruthe The B. of Saris. S. Cyprian saith it is meate not for the belly but for the minde Harding The .103 vntruthe S. Cyprian saith not so Dering If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian then in a little chaunge of words we should haue had their meaning faithfully deliuered vnto vs and bastard bokes such as they knew not had neuer bene ascribed vnto them But thanks be to God who hath now lightned vs least suche vngodly writings vnder godly names should deceiue vs as touching this vntruthe I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini But whether the author say the same thing in sense let him selfe witnesse M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words but folowing the sense saith thus it is meat not for the belly but for the minde The wordes in Cyprian are these Sicut panis communis quem quotidie edimus vita est corporis ita panis iste supersubstantialis vita est animae sanitas mentis As the common bread which we eate daily is the life of the body so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule and the health of the minde and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel Or what is worthy blame in this allegation Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon with his replie and with them that as he saith
impudens est procax Whosoeuer is present and dothe not Communicate he is shamelesse and malapert And in diuers places he warneth them to cease their euil doing with oft repetition of the dreadfull mysteries And to what purpose were that if they receiued not commonly The aucthoritie that is alleaged out of Augustine is taken out of Ambrose and it may wel be answered with the aucthoritie againe of Augustine taken out of Cyprian Hunc panem dari nobis quotidie postulamus c. This bread saith he we desire that it may be daily giuen vnto vs. c. Least while we be denied that heauenly breade we be seperate from the bodye of Christ. Héereby it appeareth in their assemblies the most of them receiued and to this effecte maister Iuel dothe alleage Conc. Matisc. 2 cap. 40. Concil Antisiodor Can. 42. Car. mag lib. 6. cap. 162. Now how so euer it liketh maister Harding to accept it all this must néedes stande for sufficient proofe For this seconde vntruthe héere brought that the contrarye is shewed by sundry recordes of this that we haue said it appeareth that this shewe as it is againe shewed is nothing worth Therefore the vse of receiuing in those dayes was as it is recorded euery sunday at the least but the receiuing in the Popes dayes is euery Easter and so both these vntruths are become none The B. of Saris. It was decreed by a councell holden at Gerunda in Spaine that all litle Churches in the countrey shold confourme them selues vnto the great cathedrall churches that were in cities and townes as well for order of the Communion as also for singing and other ministration But by M. Hardings owne graunt there was no priuate Masse in the cathedrall Churches Harding The .165 vntruth That councell speaketh neuer a vvorde in that canon of the Communion The .166 vntruthe I neuer made any suche graunt Dering Beleue not this mannes saying gentle reader if thou loue thine owne soule Marke first the aucthorities ere thou credite his reporte The words of the councel are these vt institutio missarum sicut in Metropolitana ecclesia agitur ita in dei nomine in omni Terraconensi prouincia tam ipsius missae ordo quam psallendo vel ministrando consuetudo seruetur That the institution of Masses euen as it is done in the Metropolitane Churches so in the name of God we wil that in al the prouince of Terraconia the same custome be kept in order in singing and in mynistration This canon is reported by Gracian who in stead of Terraconia putteth in all prouinces least maister Harding should make exception of any one countrey But saith he this decrée speaketh neuer a worde of the Communion Yet this decrée hath these expresse woords The institution of the Masse the order the maner of singing and the mynistration And the title of this decrée in Gracian is this as in the cathedrall Churches sic vbique missarum solennia celebrentur so euery where let the solemnitie of the Masse be kept and the glose saith Ostendit quod missa non debet aliter celebrari quam in Metropolitana ecclesia he sheweth that the Masse must be celebrated no otherwise than in the cathedrall Churches If the Communion in the Masse be no part of the institution nor order nor ministration it is a strange Communion and it is a straunge Masse that may be instituted and ministred without it But be it that this were so is maister Harding so vncourteous to his close Communion that he wil haue it no part of the solemnitie of his Masse He doth thē deserue very ill of it For it hath more prety gestures than all the Masse beside But what if maister Harding will denye all this What if he care neither for councel nor yet for Gracian What if he say it is no part of the institution order ministration nor yet of the solemnitie yet he cannot auoid y e glose that speaketh expresly without naming any circumstaunce that the Masse must be celebrate no otherwise in small Churches than it is in the Metropolitane churche Now except M. Harding do meane to teache vs by these distinctions that the Communion is no parte of the Masse it must be ministred in all Churches alike This is a miserable cause that M. Harding hath that to defend it must either fall into this absurditie that the Communion is no part neither of the institution of the Masse nor of the manner of singing nor of the order nor of the ministration nor of the solemnity nor of the Masse it self or else he must confesse this is no vntruth Now where he saith further for this other vntruth that he made no suche graunt that in cathedrall Churches there was no priuate Masse if it be true what a vain argument made he when he gessed at priuate Masse in little villages by the vse of Cathedral churches Reasoning after this sort that séeing ther were so few Communicants in the great citie of Antioche what was to be thought of small parishes Héere may wel appeare a secrete graunt that priuate Masses must be had in small townes in the countrey or else no where The B. of Saris. It appeareth by most certaine and vndoubted proofes that the people did receiue then euery sunday Harding The .167 vnt It appeareth not by ought that here is brought Dering In the .157 vntruthe master Harding said this was a foule vntruthe Héere he saith it is vntrue for ought that héere is brought so he somwhat qualifieth his former saying But yet this doing is straunge bicause the thing is certaine to make exception against the proofe more modestie might well haue yelded vnto the truthe How be it considering it is M. Hardings doing it is y e more sufferable Poets and painters may not be limitted in their inuentiōs But least the christian reader should be deceiued and haue some confidence of this vntruthe bicause it is twise reckened let vs sée these proofes which maister Harding saith are so vnsufficient The one is Decernimus vt omnibus dominicis diebus c. We decrée that euery sunday the oblation of the aultar be made of euery mā and woman This aucthority séemeth very sufficient if y e time do preiudice it in that thi◠councell was holden more than C. yeares after the councell of Agatha maister Harding must vnderstand it is an argument Minorae They receiued euery sunday in the time of the councel holden at Matiscona Ergo muche rather when the councel was at Agatha And in déede from that time our sauior Christ ascēded vntill the Pope sate aloft in the Church of God euery age as it was nearer vnto Christes time so they had more commonly their Communions The second profe y t M. Iuel bringeth is this vnaquaeque mulier c. Euery womā when she doth communicate let hir haue hir Dominical If she haue it not let hir not Communicate vsque in alium diem
Mahomet did sprede his heresie And may we not saye of things done nighe a thousande yeares paste thaâ— thâ—y were done about one tyme if theâ— were done within nintene yeares compasse But what meaneth Maister Harding to cauill aboute times The wryters them selues doe not agrée â–ª by some computation they 〈◊〉 verie lytle Mahomet is sayde to haue begonne Anno Domini â–ª 621. so there was but nine yeares difference â–ª and may not then Maister Iuell saye they were done aboute the same tyme. Maister Harding hath little to â—aye when he stayeth at suche trifles But bicause Maister Harding taketh it in by the waye that Augustine was our firste Bishoppe reade more of that in the Epistle The B. of Saris. To breake the holie Canons Damasus sayth iâ— blasphemie against the holie goste Harding The .72 vntruth Damasus saith not so Dering This is one of Maister Hardings poore vntruthes which beside the assertion hath neither colour nor show Damasus wordes are these Taliâ— praesumptio manifeste vnum genus est blasphemâ—â—tis in spiritual factum Such presumpsion is manifestly one kinde of blasphemie againste the holie goste Yf these be not the wordes then I lie If these be the wordes then Maister Harding maketh shamelesse vntruthes And if those wordes of the decree are not plaine enough then Gracian speaketh more plainely in the title he speaketh euen as Maister Iuell doeth In spiritum sanctum blasphemant qui sacros canones violant it is blasphemie against the holy gost to breake the sacred canons Yea and the glose saith further Eo ipso videtur excommunicatus et hereticus euen by the verie face he is excommunicate and he is an heretike And Gregorie saith exors esto a nostro ministerio Let him haue no part of our ministratioÌ„ Reade these places examine M. I. saying thou canst not but maruell at Maister Hardings impudencie The B. of Saris. Soters decree commaundeth that no Priest dare minister without the companie of some other Priest Harding The .173 vntruth Soters decree is not so generall it is limitted Dering How so euer Soters decrée be limitted he were a wise man could limit al M. Hardinges wrangling The canon is plaine Summopere cauendum est â–ª And necessarium duximus we must especially prouide and we haue thought it necessarie to haue an other Priest in companie and for the better credit of this decrée Soter bringeth forth this scripture Ve soli wo be to him that is alone But saith Maister Harding this decrée was not generall and it was growne out of vse and how proueth he that it was not generall Forsoth Gregorie saith so he might as well haue sayde I say so for if Gregorie might gesse at Soters meaning .400 yeares after Soter was dead why may not M. Hard. gesse too I am sure he is as good at a gesse as euer Gregorie was and hath as good practise in them But this is straunge dealing which Maister Harding vseth to gesse so at vntruths then to aduouch them so boldly But bicause the matter shall not go all by aime here is another shift for Iohn Almonars Masse This canon saith Maister Harding was growne out of vse But this aunswere was scarce worth bringing For if the breach of those canons were blasphemie against the holy gost as Pope Damasus saith what meÌ„t Maister Hardings church to let them grow out of vse But I thinke the church was not so ouerseene peraduenture Maister Hardings saying is false peraduenture the decrée neither had any limitation nor yet was out of vse Uerely the Pope him self straightly commaundeth them with apostolicall authoritie and in no case will haue them broken vnder paine of excoÌ„munication Then sith it is so this vntruth was neither wisely numbred nor yet well prouid The B. of Saris. The councell of Laudicea saith it is not lawfull for bishops or priestes to minister the communion at home Harding The .174 vntruth The Councell saith not at home but in their houses Dering We haue heard before many new distinctions héere is yet an other as new as the best There is saith M. Harding a differeÌ„ce betwene at home and in their houses and vpon this distinction it liketh him so well he aduentureth this vntruth and the two next ensuing also But I thinke it will be long eare this distinction get any credit Sure I am in my countrey to say he is at home or he is at his house is all a matter and I dare say M. Iuel thought of no difference betwene them Seing then Maister Harding doeth see so cleare too espie ambiguities where none are Let vs sée how that decrée and this distinction may stande Let no Bishop or Priest sayth the councell minister the Communion in their houses Yet saith Maister Harding they may minister it at home So this decrée standeth thus Let no Bishop or Priest minister the Communion to any man in his house except he be at home Yf so many Bishops made so senselesse a decrée they had smal matters to think on The B. of Saris. The same order was taken at the Councell of Acon Harding The .176 vntruth It vvas not taken Dering The same order saith Maister Harding was not taken by them Yet the .58 canon of the councell of Laodicea and 80. canon of the councell of Acon are the same words and how should the same wordes not haue the same meaning No distinctioÌ„ can make this matter whole but M. Harding must néedes here say he can not tell what he sayd The B. of Saris. Likewise Pope Foelix It is not lawfull to minister the communion at home but vpon exceding great necessitie Harding The .175 vntruth Foelix speaketh neither of the Communion nor of home Dering If M. Harding did either feare God or reuerence the truth he wold not deale thus vnfaithfully Thou séest good Reader how boldly he saith Foelix nameth neither y e Communion nor home and who would not thinke that such assertions should haue some coloure or shew of truth yet sure in this there is none But marke his vntrue behauiour he alleageth for his proofe certaine wordes of Foelix in which in deede these termes are not expressed but how wickedly he doeth it let the booke be iudge It foloweth in the same decrée within lesse than fiue lines In domibus ab episcopis siue presbyteris oblationes celebrari nullatenus licet yet in houses either by Bishoppes or Priestes it is by no meanes lawefull that the Communion be celebrate Lo here is mention bothe of house and Communion yet saith Maister Harding there is mention of neither The best excuse that in this place may be hadde is to saye he was deceiued there is no exception against the words for they are plaine No distinction of oblation For the glose hath interpreted it Oblationes s. eucharistiae The sacrifice to wit of the Lordes supper Now a little further to view these vntruthes M. Harding to proue
no partie which way so euer you interprete them declareth a great want of good matter to proue the thing it selfe which lieth in controuersie If these woords be not in the same place yet the very allegation of the gréeke text is a sufficieÌ„t proofe they are found in the author And therefore if false quoting the place be the greatest fault let it go for me it is not worthy no answere The B. of Saris. It was forbidden by many decrees to mynister the sacrament in priuate houses Harding The .185 vntruthe It was not forbidden Dering Untruthes may wel grow in number where one may be reckened so many times Read the .176 vntruthe The B. of Saris. M. Harding hath violently and of purpose falsified the traÌ„slation Harding The .186 vntruthe My translation is true Dering Tell on in a circle M. Harding and then your vntruthes shall neuer haue end Read the .177 vntruthe The B. of Saris. The life of S. Basil hath bene set for the fully and faithfully by Gregorie Nissene Gregorie Nazianzene Gregorie Presbyter Socrates Theodoretus Sozomenus and Nicephorus Harding The .187 vntruthe His life is not set out fully by them Dering God be mercifull vnto vs and when his good will and pleasure is deliuer vs from such wranglers Is not a mannes life set out fully when it is shewed what he hath done openly in the congregation How he hath remoued from place to place What doctrine he hath taught What diligence he hathe vsed What trouble he hathe suffred What enimies he hath had Whose companie he hath frequented What learning he hath studied What promotion he hath gotten How many yeares he hath liued And what euer else he hathe from time to time openly done or suffred All this is declared onely by Gregorie Nazianzene in his Monodia in his Oration De laudibus Basilij and in sundry his Epistles so that what soeuer maister Iuel saith he alone hath done it and that he ment so to doe it is plaine inough for as much as he entituleth his booke De vita Basilij and yet though Nazianzene had not done so muche but all these among them had written this so fully maister Iuels woords had bene true So there is nothing héere to be said for maister Harding but either he wrangleth or misse vnderstandeth The B. of Saris. None of them was so impudent once to make any mention of this pieuishe tale of M. Hardings Masse Harding The .188 vntruthe Vincentius maketh mention of it Dering Reade this tale of Amphilochius Vincentius his words and thou maist hardly think that Vincentius being so full of olde wiues fables as he is would so lightly haue passed ouer this wonderous matter of S. Basill Maister Harding him selfe who is much more temperate in such maner of miracles than Vincentius is by no meanes could let it passe without much practise of his eloqueÌ„ce By this it may be thought that Vincentius neuer knew it or if he knew it he was ashamed to write it being so manifest a lie least he should haue discredited his whole fardle of newes Thus much yet he saith that may sound toward it that God did teach Basil in a vision to offer vp sacrifice with his owne words And vpon this saying Maister Harding aduentureth the quoting of his vntruth To discharge this it were vnnecessarie labour considering the tale is so foolish yet for Amphilochius and Vincentius sakes that one of them may be founde a lier I will a little lay these authors togither Amphilochius saith the next daye after this Masse was done Basil made a golden doue to hang ouer the altar and he put the third part of the host into it Vincentius sayth Basil being at that miraculous Masse Columba aurea quae cum sacramento domini super altare pendebat c. the golden pigeon which did hang ouer the altar with the sacrament of the Lord did not moue thrée times as it was wont to doe c. Bicause a certaine deacon was talking with a womaÌ„ Héere we sée Amphilochius saith the pigeon was made the next day Vincentius saith if hong long before ouer the altar And that the tale may haue one 〈◊〉 of Vincentius office he saith at euerie sataring the pigeon was wont to moue thrice Againe Amphilochius saith there was no bodie but Eubulus that looked in at a creuise Vincentius saith there was a deacon talking with a woman and therefore the pigeon could not moue and so either one of these two Doctours make a lie and then Maister Harding proueth his priuate Masse with a lie or else Basil said Masse twice after his owne fashion and then this is no vntruth But saith Maister Harding Antonius doeth also report this Masse saying I graunt he doeth so And so doth Aesope that apes and asses spake But I trow Maister Harding doeth not beleue him no more doth any wise man his Antonius He y t list to haue y e fabler reproued let him reade the booke The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith that after Basils retourne from Pontus Ensebius knew him not Harding The .189 vntruth I assure you my booke hath it not Dering Belike Maister Hardings Amphilochius is but a patched boke But if he wil go to that other at Verona in Italie which is faire written in velem there sure he shal finde it The B. of Saris. Nazianzen saith that Basil was not Bishop of Caesarea in Iulianus time Harding The .190 vntruth Nazianzen saith not so Dering Maister Harding in his Reioinder saith thus Perhaps it is true that Nazianzen was not then Bishop of Caesarea but yet Nazianzen â—aith it not Now sure good Reader without all perhappes Maister Harding is a verie wrangler that when he can not denie the thing yet will stick so dainely vpon the words But say M. Har. what he say wil both Nazianzen al other writers which do speke of Basils doing doe beare witnesse of this matter Nazianzen reporteth how vpon dissention betwene him Eusebius he went into Pontus And when Valens for y e furtheraÌ„ce of Arrian heresie came to Caesarea and vexed much the faithfull Nazianzen was sent to Basil to call him home for the aide of the church vpon which returne he was reconciled to Eusebius in like authoritie gouerned the church Now this being done in the time of Valens who was after Iouinian and Basil yet no Bishop is it not then plaine that Amphilochius is a lier which sayth Basill was Bishoppe in Iulians time which was Emperour next before Iouinian Yf there were no more to say but this yet this would proue Maister Harding were impudent in this vntruth But Nazianzen speaketh yet more plaine he saith Basil was made bishop in Eusebius roome after the death of Valens about the yeare of our Lorde .380 And for an vndoubted proofe that he was no Bishoppe in Iulianus time Basill him selfe writeth that he was made chiefe of the church of Caesarea when the Arrian
is in vaine but that the oblation is in vaine making a great difference betwene his Masse and oblation But this matter doth not so well thriue as Maister Harding wéeneth his Masse and oblation must néedes be both one else how could his Masse be saide to be a sacrifice propitiatorie for quick and dead sith the sacrifice can onely be ment by the oblation But let vs take Maister Hardings words as they are The oblatioÌ„ saith he is in vaine to the people that will not come Here he speaketh not onely against his companions but against the Pope and against his Masse booke The decrée saith the oblation is good that is offred for Iudah and Ierusalem that is for them that coÌ„fesse the Lord. And the masse booke saith Hanc oblationem offerimus pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica We offer this oblation for the whole catholike church Yet saith Maister Harding this oblation is in vaine If he him selfe will thus speake against Pope and portus he may peraduenture crack his Masse ere he be ware But it is well We take that Maister Harding graunteth except the people receiue the celebration or sacrifice made by y e priest is in vaine so his priuate Masse is quitâ— condemned The B. of Saris. If Maister Harding will stand vnto the authoritie of Chrysostome let him not dissemble but speake plaine vnto the people as Chrysostom spake Let him say to theÌ„ that come to heare his masse if ye receiue not ye are shamelesse ye are impudent you are not worthie to be partakers of the common prayers Depart you from the Church ye haue no more place here than Turks and heathens your eyes be vnworthy to see these things vnworthy be your eares our Masses can not profite you they are not meritorious for you they please not God they prouoke his anger they are all in vaine This is Chrysostomes sense and plaine meaning Harding The .207 vntruthe These are not his words The .208 vntruthe Nor his meaning Dering Héere I must craue of the indifferent Reader to note this manner of quoting vntruthes Of these very words of Chrysostome before he made two vntruthes the .202 and .203 Here of them all he maketh but one Yet if there be but one nowe there was but one afore and so one vntruthe is made thrée Againe before he made no vntruth as touching the meaning now he maketh one Yet if there be one now there was one afore so of two vntruthes which is very vnlike he will nuÌ„ber but one againe in the .204 vntruthe he maketh but one vntruthe bothe of the words and meaning héere seuerally he maketh one of either this diuersitie of gathering must néedes shewe a matter of little waight Now as touching these two vntruthes and the wordes héere saide of maister Iuel he neither saith nor meaneth that they are al in Chrysostome But alleaging certaine as is shewed in the .202 vntruth he héere addeth more For example to shew the Massing priestes how they should speake vnto the people What troweth maister Harding to persuade the people that maister Iuel maketh Chrysostome to speake of their Masses Héere in these words the Masse is plainely named yet y e good father did neuer know what suche spirituall whoredomes did meane And yet héere M. Harding to cary away the readers vnderstanding in his railing spirite he speaketh great blasphemies against Gods electe and calleth him the forerunner of Antichrist whome God hath appointed one to be an ouer runner of the Romish Idolatries But God be praised in all his saints The B. of Saris. Now let vs examine this inuincible argument wherwith euery childe as Maister Harding saith is able to proue the priuate Masse Harding The .209 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering These are his woords of this most euident place of Chrysostome euery childe is able to make an inuincible argument against master Iuel for the priuate Masse these are his very wâ—ords I say as he saith let the booke be iudge and he that is found a lier let him haue the blame The B. of Saris. This is M. Hardings argument The sacrifice in Chrysostomes time was daily offred But many times none came to Communicate Ergo there was priuate Masse Heere the Maior is apparant false the Minor is proued at aduenture Harding The .210 vntruthe The Maior is true The .211 vntruthe The Minor is well proued Dering In the .133 vntruthe maister Iuel proued by S. Augustine â–ª that in some place the people receiued euery day there maister Harding dothe note that for vntrue héere maister Iuel proueth by S. Augustine that in some place they receiued not euerye day Hâ—ere likewise maister Harding noteth this for vntrue And yet howe can bothe these be vntrue More circumspect behauioure in so false dealing hadde bene necessary Now as touching bothe these sayings of maister Iuel that somewhere the people did receiue euery day somewhere only on certaine dayes let S. Augustines woordes be witnesses Thus he wryteth The Sacrament of the body of Christ is receiued somewhere euery day alicubi certis interâ—allis dierum somewhere on certaine dayes only As long as this aucthoritie may stande for good maister Iuels saying hath a good warrant And though it were not good yet maister Hardings two vntruthes must néedes one ouerthrow an other As touching this other vntruthe that none came to receiue with the priest sée whether it be proued at aduenture or no. Thus maister Harding saith if there were but fewe to Communicate in that great and famous Churche of Antioche what may be thought of a thousand lesser churches c. Nowe whether this proofe be at all aduentures and a bare gesse it is soone iudged Concerning Chrysostomes aucthority here read the Replie The B. of Saris. As for the Maior it is plaine by the .6 councell of Constantinople by S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn by S. Basil ad Caesariam patritiam by the Epistle of the councel of Alexandria in defence of Macarius and by the councell of Laodicea and by sundry other aucthorities to that purpose before alâ—eaged that the sacrifice was not daily offred Harding The .212 vntruthe S. Augustine hath the contrary Dering If S. August speake contraries he is sure the more to blame but who séeth not by S. Augustines plaine woordes in this former vntruthe alleaged that where he saith the sacrifice is daily offred it is to be ment of certaine places not of all This vntruthe is directly contrary to the 83.133.14-5.156 vntruthes But what skilleth that where M. Harding may be beleued Héere note that all these other aucthorities are coÌ„trolled and yet notwithstaÌ„ding M. Harding presumeth vpoÌ„ his vntruths Sure the number was appointed too large that coulde not be made vp without suche foule shifts The B. of Sarisb Maister Harding saw that this is but a slender proofe Chrysostome ministred euery day therfore he receiued alone Harding The .213 vntruth Maister Harding
heresie was in the greatest rage which was after that Valens hadde raised the great persecution for it And this also thou shalt finde written in Socrates Now these authorities standing thus as thou shalt finde them by examination what will Maister Hardings perhaps excuse him Sure that these manie vntruthes stande vpon no grounde but his impudent facings The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith that Basil foretolde the death of Iulian Theodoretus saith it was one Iulianus Sabba and not S. Basil. Harding The .190 vn Theodoretus saith not that Sabba foretold it The .192 vn ▪ He saith not that Basil did not tell it Dering Maister Harding hath but a little way to go and hath yet a great manie vntruths to make Therfore taking good holde in time in these words Sabba foretold it and not Basil he picketh it two vntruths One that Sabba tolde it not the other that Basil tolde it He might with as much facilitie haue made the thirde that and is a coniunction should couple two wordes and sentences together But here by the way note that Amphilochius telleth a fowle popish tale an ilfauored vntruth which Maister Harding thinketh good to skip ouer for shame and with a good courage goeth forward making the reader beleue al is wel Reade the Replie Fol. 83. Now to these vntruthes If Sabba dyd foretell the death of Iulian then notwithstanding Maister Hardings numbring yet Basil foretolde it not Then héere is the controuersie whether Theodorete saith that Iulianus Sabba did tell it first Then reade the place and thou shalt finde it thus When Libanius doeth aske of Sabba what the Carpenters sonne was now a doing Sabba aunswereth that the maker of the worlde whome he in mockage dyd call the Carpenters sonne was making sandapilam a héere to carie dead bodies and sone after the Emperour dyed Then it foloweth in y e next chapter that the same day that Iulian died Resciuit cecidisse Sabba knew he was dead and tolde it vnto his felowes Now iudge who was the first teller of these newes before the Emperour was dead Sabba tolde Libanius his beare was a making the same daye that he died he tolde it abrode Now Basil being then not present with the Emperour as likewise Sabba was not but did know it miraculouslie how could S. Basil tell it before him No doubt good Reader when Maister Harding made two vntruthes of this he had either slender iudgement or verie yll choise The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius saith Nazianzen was present at Basils death Nazianzen him selfe saith he came afterwarde Harding The .193 vntruth Nazianzen saith not so in his Monodia Dering Maister Harding saith in his reioinder he will not denie that this is true Reade his booke is not this a strange matter y t he noteth that for an vntruth which he will not denie but it is a truth Yf he haue no thing to say but that it is not in his Monodia what skilleth it so the thing be truely reported whether the place be noted at all or no I doe easely graunt that Maister Iuel may be well deceiued in keping iust reconing of bookes and chapters but that is a slender fault when he reporteth all that is written truely Now to proue that this is true and that Nazianzen was not at Basils death it is manifest that he was at Arianzum his owne patrimonie and made his Epitaphe and oration vpon Basil one whole yeare after Basil was dead And whē he hadde done he went home againe as it is sufficiently proued by Grigorie Nissene And Gregorius Presbiter doeth witnesse the same that Nazianzen came long after that Basil was dead thus graunting that it be not founde in Nazianzens Monodia yet by other good witnesse Amphilochius is proued a lier Now for misnaming the place alleaging the authoritie truely I shall néede to make no longe aunswere The fault is so small that it doth excuse it selfe The B. of Saris. Maister Hardings Amphilochius is so impudent to say Nazianzen came in all hast and saw the blessed bodie and fell vpon it when it was buried Harding The .194 vntruthe Amphilochius saith not he fell vpon him vvhen he vvas buried Dering In this vntruth is nothing but a little wrangling about this saying when he was buried Which wordes whether they be in Amphilochius or no I meane not yet to go to Verona and looke Sure it is he could not fall on him when he was couered with moulde and sith the matter is no weightier let it rest for me Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer one other lie and maketh no defence of Amphilochius writing it but leaues that altogither vntouched for a testimonie what him selfe thinketh of Amphilochius After all this a doe about him he giueth him ouer with this round conclusion be he as he is I neither defend him nor condemne him he is ashamed any further to defende him bicause he is a shamelesse lier and yet he wil not condemne him bicause he maketh a tale for Maister Hardings Masse In the meane season we haue some gesse what the author is when his great friendes dare not defend him Now Maister Harding skippeth ouer two leaues at once and so draweth to an ende The B. of Saris. Chrysostome saith some are called and some are brought to receiue with the Priest diuis 34. Harding The .195 vntruth Chrisostome saith not so Dering If M. Harding did now begin his wrangling it were peraduenture requisite more at large to blame it but bicause it is common y e reader I trust is alredie forewarned to beleue nothing that he saith without some other witnesse Therefore his credit being thus broken the proofe of this vntruth being so slender there is no great daunger least any man should take hurt by it I will omit therefore further proofe of Maister Iuels saying and I onely require to consider this maner of vntruth Thus Maister Iuel alleageth Chrisostoms words Some are called some brought to receiue with y e priest That is not so saith Maister Harding they are not called to receiue with the Priest This then must be iudged by Chrisostome he writeth thus The Deacon standing vpright in the sight of all the people c. Some he calleth to communicate and some he putteth off Now how can any indifferent man say ▪ that Maister Iuell misreporteth these wordes But so it is Maister Harding hath shut from him all indifferencie and doeth let affection miserably blinde his vnderstanding and by that meanes hath espied this vntruth and the vntruth is that Chrisostome hath not these wordes with the Priest but they are Maister Iuels owne addition But what meaneth he Doth he think the people did receiue without y e priest or if they did not when Chrisostome saith they were called to receiue how is it vntrue to report his saying they were called to receiue with the priest Doe these vntruths néede many words to