do the same Concerning the preheminence in ciuill causes there is no great question he wil say between vs Page 71. only in ecclesiastical matters we assume vnto our selues saith he that authoritie which by right is the magistrats This slander is general we desire the particular proofe of it wee cannot answere generalles hee repheth that the magistrate by lawe is to haue whatsoeuer priuiledg the pope at any time had with in this land by vsurpation Page 70. lin 3. what will hee conclude hereof Not I hope that the magistrate is to haue the power of remitting sinnes and dispensing with the law of God which the Pope by vsurpation had in times past within this kingdome Her Maiestie wee know detesteth al such prerogatiues from her hart But what is it that he requireth to be graunted vnto the ciuil authoritie which wee yelde not most willingly The power to establish godly ecclesiastical lawes and constitutions amongest the subiects wee are so far from denying this that wee holde it intollerable that our Bishops and the conuocation house should intrude their subscriptions aduertisements and cannons vpon the subjectes whereas no such things can be warraÌ„ted by statute And whereas hee sayth that wee claime vnto our Presbiteries the ordinary authoritie to make al lawes constitutions and ceremonies of the Church it is most false Al that wee affirme in this point is noe more then her majestie voluntarily yealdeth in all such cases when the question is whether such or such a case be statute law or not whether doth M. Bancroft think her majestie or her learned councel in the lawe as her judges Solliciters Atturneis c. to haue greatest skill in the deciding of this matter he knoweeth well enough that her Majesty in all such points will be directed by that which her aforesaid lawiers do prooue to be law and equitie and yet thinketh her royall prorogatiue no whit diminshed thereby In the like case then we say that the true gouernors of the church are meetest to direct her majesty what lawes and ceremonies are most lawfull expedient necessary for the right gouernment of the church And we say that as her majestie in worldly matters is to giue eare vnto the Lawiers which haue skill in that facultie so in the matters of God is she to establish nothing in the church but that which the true ministers and true gouernors if they may bee had shall shew vnto her to be according vnto the worde of GOD. And yet all this while wee make not the gouernours of the Church to haue power to enact laws we leaue that authoritie vnto her Majesty and the Parliament vnto whose hands the Lord hath committed it This indeed we affirme Moreouer that her majesty and the Parliament are bound to establish and erect amongst their subiects al such lawes and ceremonies as the true Ministers of the word shall prooue by the Scriptures of God to bee meet and necessary for the gouernment of the temple and house of the Lord within this kingdome And that they are bound to see that no forme of religion or Church-gouernment be in force amongst the subjectes but that alone which by the word of God may bee prooued lawfull and so that they are bound to see that the Church of God bee clensed and purified of all Idolatrous popish superstious and superfluous gouernment and ceremonies And furthermore we say that they are to prouide by law that all persons both Ministers and others doe submit themselues without contradiction vnto all such things as shall bee godly established in the Church Whether this bee M. Bancroft to weaken or call into question her Maiesties prerogatiue in Ecclesiastical causes let the reader determin We would also desire him to iudge whether her Majestie be well vsed at your hands which call her a petty Pope and say that shee vsurpeth the same authority in causes page 68. lin 2â— Ecclesiasticall with in her dominions which the pope did in times past Had we coÌ„ceiued much lesse published any such things wee had worthily smarted for it Your answere heere will be that you did bring in this reason to shew the weakenes of Martins arguments against the Bishops Let Martin in other points answere for himselfe The case of her Majestie and our Bishops are not alike He prooueth our Bishops to be petty Popes and vsurpers you denie it not And therefore you onely addresse your selfe to shew what a rebellious and absurd conclusion hee hath made by the like kinde of reasoning as you suppose And where his minor truly assumeth our bishoppes to be vsurpers and petty Popes you falsely and standerously charge her Maiestie to bee an vsurper and a petty Pope Wee are not so hastie to shead bloud as you are otherwise this your vndutifulnes is so heinous that I could easily shewe that there were no other waye of desence for you but in the acknowledgement of your rash boldnes to giue your doings no worse tearmes to flie vnto her Maiesties clemency TOVCHING SCOTLAND VVE answere that we desire not the Eldershipp to be planted in the Church of England From the. 72. to the 78. page because Scotland or Geneua enjoyeth the same but in asmuch as Christ Iesus the head king of his church hath commaunded it to bee therein And therefore we admit the gouernment of no church vnder heauen to be the pâ—â—â—â—â—e of that which we desire but only that regiment which is set downe in the word of God the perfection whereof if any Church hath attained vnto wee rejoice with them and desire to be pertakers of so great a blessing in the Lods good time But as for any thing that is amisse if there be ought either in Geneua or Scotlande wee labour no more to haue that established in England then we doe to haue the great abuses that raigned in the Church of Corinth or Galatia to be imitated The slaunder which you haue raised Page 75. both against the Kings Maiesty there in giuing out that he is a deadly enemy vnto the present gouernement established in his kingdome and watcheth but his time to ouer throw it and also against the godly ministers of that realm in making them traitors vnto their soueraign Heaue to be answered by theÌ„selues and I dout not but you wil in time be forced to answere the iniury that you haue offered vnto that godly and noble King oâ— and also vnto the whole Church with in his dominion But let it bee graunted that the true Church gouernours in Scotland behaued themselues rebelliously towards then Prince which yet is most false what is that to the Church gouernment which they enioly Doe you thinke it a good season to say that the Archbishop is a Traitour therefore the Archbishopricke is gilty of Treason You can not deny but Thomas Beckeâ— was a traitor so were diuers others that haue beene Archbishops of Canterbury but I trust you will not therefore attaint the Archbishopricke of treason
to atchieue his purpose And that is neither to father vpon vs such thinges as we neuer maintained nor yet to bring the testimonies of men to oppugn our conclusions whose grounds he is not able to shake but to set downe that which we holde indeed and with reasons rather to answere our premisses then with authorities to strike at our conclusions The contrary dealing may colour and white line the breaches of his cause for a time but in the end it will prooue to be the ruine thereof Vnconscionable and sophistical dealing can neuer be able to stand any long time He and his Masters would gladly beare the Magistrat in hand that we deny the congregations in England where the word is truly preached and the sacraments rightly administred to be the visible churches of God wheras the truth is that the Bishops and not we doe maintaine this error Let the reader judge whether I truly accuse them by this which followeth The visible church of God wheresoeuer it bee hath the power of binding â—nd loosing annexed vnto it as our sauiour Christ teacheth vs. Mathew 18. which authority is so essentially tied vnto the visible church that wheresoeuer this power is to bee found there the church of Christ is also visible Our Bb. are scismatickes and deny the assemblie of England to be visible church of God booke of Martins page 5. 6. and wheresoeuer there is a visible church there this authority cannot bee denied to be The which point that reuerend father M. Iohn Fox teacheth more at large Now the reader cannot be ignorant that our Bishops wil neuer grant that the visible congregations in England ought to haue this power of binding and loosing for then should they manifest themselues to bee professed tyrants The crime therefore of Scisme and Donatisme which M. Bancroft and the Prelates would fasten vpon vs doth justly clâ—aue vnto them selues And if any of our poore brethren be caried away to thinke otherwise of the congregations of England which inioy the woorde truly preached and the right vse of the Sacramentâ— VVe cease not to pray that the Lord would reforme their iudgements But woe bee vnto our Bishops which are the cause of this their stumbling and maintainers of their error For the pore brethren doe holde nothing in this point but that which the learned fathers as M. Bancroft calleth them haue decreed And you shall see in this Treatise that he seeth no reason why Popery being now abollished Sermon pag. 3 wee should not reply vppon the determinations of these fathers as other men in time past of a great iudgement as we are haue done Let our Bishops then and their vpholders whisper into the eare of the Magistrate what they will it shall bee prooued in the end that they are the scismatickes and not we It shall appear that they are growing to make a body of their owne wherewith the church of God in a while if they hold on their course can haue no mote to do then in times past in had with the scismaticall Donatists The deuill indeede hath within this twelmoneth shewed himselfe to bee grieuously wounded in their persons because he hath raged so mightily as these 32. yeares his furie was neuer seene so great against the truth as at this present That vile and scurrilous Palmphlet An almond a Patrot latey suffered to come abroad by their priuity if not allowance and in their defence doth euidently shew that sathan feeleth the power and sway which he was wont to bear by vertue of the hierarchie to be greatly weakned And because he feareth that his time vnder their gouernment cannot be long therefore he meaneth now to infect the aire at once with all his contagions The strength which they get by such leud and filthie stuffe the discredit which thereby they worke either vnto the cause or the men and women whome they suffer to bee so vnworthilie traduced is not other then it were to bee wished that seeing they will needs be filthy they would publish such another booke euery day That then it might appeare indeede whose sonnes they are And this is all the confutation that I thinke so godles leud a scrole to deserue For thy selfe good reader thou seest the time of triall to be now at hand euen at the doore If thou meanest to be partaker of Christes kingdome after this life take heede that neither the feare of men nor the loue of the world draw thee to shrinke from any part of that truth which the Lorde hath reueiled in his word The Lord saith that whosoeuer shall be ashamed of him or his worde that is any part of his truth before men Luk. 9.26 of him shall the sonne of man be ashamed when he commeth in his glory VVell I thinke it now no time to dally with the Lord and his word but let vs craue strength at his hand that we stand vnrebukeable vnto the day of his appearance A BRIEFE DISCOVERY OF THE VNTRVTHES AND SLANDERS AGAINST Reformation and the fauourers thereof contained in D. Bancrofts Sermon D. BANCROFTS TEXT 1. Iohn 4.1 Dearely beloued beleeue not euery spirite bâ—â—â—â—ie the spirites whether they be of God For many false Prophets are gone out into the world ANSVVERE IT hath bene the ancient custome of Sathan and his instruments in all ages I answere not the word but the abuse of the word to abuse the holy worde and name of God as a ground vnto all their vngodly proceedings against the Lorde and his Saints that there by they might haue some colour of their persecutions and wicked attempts against the truth and professors thereof That I bee not tedious in a matter too apparant hence it is that in all the condemnations of the holy Martyrs of Christ by that Romane Tyrant We see all their processes to begin in the name of God the accusasions laid to the charge of the Saints to bee so boulstred out with the testimonies of holy Scripture as though the spirite of God had none to condemne of heresie scisme sedition and treason saue onely the members and messengers of Christ Iesus And therefore M. Bancroft if you begin with Scripture and as I may say in the name of God begin to speake against God against his blessed verity and people you doe but your kind in treading the steppes of your predecessours You haue your forefathers the Scribes and Pharises that Antichristian beast of Rome his Cardinals Bishops Legates inquisitors and all others that haue coloured their garments with the bloud of the Lords chosen for your presidents and examples The delusion of your course could not bee so great if you did shewe your selfe in your colours Your Sermon declareth that your affection serueth you rather to fight against the truth with fire and fagot then by sober writing or speaking to stand in the defence of your cause Well you deale against false Prophetes Scismatiques giddy spirites disturbers of the church enemies
that they who would bee taken for Leuites and gouernours of the holy Temple should haue a haÌ„d in this trespasse You haue streined your conscience to far I feare me in going about to make vp the credite of Bishop Coopers admonition to the people of England Page 24. A large conscience I perceiue hath along hand to reach a distinctioÌ„ a far of Let the reader consider the place If you set downe any thing that is Annabaptisticall or Popish it were meete you should confute it Page 25. least the simple auditors should take it for your own doctrine rather then other mens errours Nowe I come to that part of your Sermon where you deale concerning the triall of spirits D BANCROFT page 33. lin 26. pag. 34. lin 19. 41. lin 17. The popish false Prophets wil suffer the people to try nothing but teach them wholly to depend vppon them The giddy spirits woulde haue men to be everseeking and searching The meane therefore betwixt both these extremities I holde to be best And this it is that when you haue attained the true grounds of Christian Religion and are constantly built by a liuely faith vpon Iesus Christ 1. Cor. 3. being incorporated into his misâ—â—eal body by your baptisme and afterwards nourished with the Lords Supper you then content your selfe and seeke no farther c. ANSVVERE It is well known that wee allow neither popish norgiddy spirites no nor yet slaunderous and lying spirites As for the rule of the popishe false Prophets you haue squared your doctrine page 43. just according vnto the same as the reader shal perceiue in the proper place You haue plotted vs out heere such a meane betweene two extreamities as they must needes bee meane Christians that will go no further then the resting place which you haue set downe for them I will not say heere that the Papistes will graunt the miserable people vnder them leaue to goe thus far which is true but this I will say that this doctrine of yours tendeth wholly to remooue an able Ministerie out of the Church and so consequently to robbe the people both of the scepter of Christs gouernement and also of his word For if the people neede no more nay if it bee vnlawfull for them to go any further then to bee baptised and after they haue attained vnto the true groundes of Christian religion are engraffed into Christ to receiue the Lordes supper to what vse serueth the preaching of the word And to what end should the Apostle require Phil. 1.9.10 that the word of God should dwell plentifullie among Christians and pray that our loue maye abound more and more in knowledge Phil. 1.6 and in al feeling that we may discerne things that differ that we may bee pure and without offence vntill the day of Christ filled with the fruits of righteousnes c. If you could once M. Bancroft bring this meane of yours to take place then indeede might you place readers insteed of Preachers ouer the people without controllement and say that they need no other teaching because they are baptised engraffed into Christ and fed with the heauenly foode exhibited vnto them in the Lords Supper and what need they more For Tertullian saith Page 42. that we need not be curious after we haue apprehended Christ nor in quisitiue after we haue receiued the gospell But a miserable teacher are you that in such sort doe open a windowe vnto the deuill and mans corruption to breake faith into all impietie and wickednesse For how shall either the rage of sathan against vs or the rebellion of our owne corruptions within vs be restrained but by that mighty scepter of Christs word preached euen vnto vs that haue receiued the first fruits of the spirit If you had euer knowne what it had bene to receiue Christ truly and to retain him being receiued you would neuer haue endeuoured to seduce your auditors in this monstrous popish sort But because the light of your owne conscience doth tell you that christians cannot containe themselues within this prison wherein you haue shutte them You set downe a good supply of the want of teaching if men would desire to be resolued in anye matter of doubt your owne wordes or rather your popery I will set downe D. BANCROFT page 42. 43 line 24. God hath bound himselfe vnto his church of purpose that men by hir good direction Councels might in this point that is in maters of dout be relieued to whose godly determinatioÌ„ in maters of question her dutiful children ought to submit themselues without any curious or wilfull contradiction Neither can I see nowe that popery is bannished and the trueth of christian religioÌ„ is godly planted amongst vs why in these dais we shuld not attribute as much to the decrees of our learned fathers in their lawfull assemblies as other men in times past of as great iudgement as wee are haue done ANSVVERE You account the Papists to be false Prophets because they will suffer the people to trie nothing Page 33. but teach them wholly to depend vppon them you do wel in it But if this touching couÌ„cels be not to ioin hand with them in the point wherin you pretend to bee their aduersary if this be not to teach men to beleeue as their mother the church doth let the reader iudge The Bishop of Rome desireth no more to bee graunted vnto him for the authoritie of his councels theÌ„ you haue set down in expresse terms And if the Lorde hath bound himselfe by his promise vnto his Church of purpose that men should be directed therby I would demaund of you whether this promise was that the Church should direct them vnto truth or vnto errour If you say vnto truth otherwise it were no promise I demand then how the Church can erre For either the Lord must breake his promise if hee hath made any or els the Church cannot erre in the direction of her dutifull children Now if you say that the Church cannot erre the reader knoweth what account to make of you if she be subiect vnto errors to what end should we stand to her determination in matters of question any further then we are assured that her decrees are according vnto the word Now if it be lawfull for vs otherwise our bondage should bee intollerable to trie whether her determinations bee according vnto the word and to reiect them if they bee otherwise to what ende doe you carry vs from the sure foundacion of the worde vnto the vncertaine and vnconstant voice of the Church surely if you would know what I conceiue of you for this the like points of doctrine in your Sermon my opinion is that you are not far from a close papist how vehement so euer you speake against theÌ„ and whosoeuer they were that allowed your Sermon to be published they may iustly feare least the Papists doe ere it be long make too great
aduantage that you haue bene suffered to preach and to publish many grounds of popery vnreprooued vnder the profession of the gospell The Church of God we reuerence to bee wilfull in standing against her or any member therof we holde it vnlawfull but that men should stand in matters of question vnto her determination as vnto the vndoubted voyce of God she hath no authority to require any such obedience at our hands I dare say for you that you are vexed at the verie heart that any thing established in the Conuocation house should bee called in question when you prooue that assembly to be lawfull and the learned fathers as you call them there met to bee true Pastors and not rauening wolues wee will promise to giue greater reuerence vnto their degrees Poperie is so bannished from amonge vs that by the authority of those learned fathers you dare in open Pulpit and publike writinges iustifie many points thereof Answere to the 46.47.48.49 pages It is not onely lawfull but necessary that all men of what state soeuer they bee should be required yea compelled by the Magistrate to subscribe vnto true religion 2. Chron. 14.12 cap. 34 31.32 2. Kings 11.17 Nehem. 9.38 10.29 This we doe willingly confesse Howbeit we hold it vnlawfull to subscribe in that forme that our Bishops do exact at our hands Your reason that subscription is lawfull therefore the English or the Augustane subscription is lawfull is no other then if I should say that religion is good therefore the popishe religion is good But of all other points in your booke I cannot but greatly wonder that you seeme to iustifie the subscription vnto the Augustine confession and the silenceing of those that would not subscribe vnto it Page 47. lin 24 You are not ignoraunt I thinke that the saide confession is vnsound in the point of the Lords supper which hath set Germany on fire these many yeares As for the subscription which in England is required by statute our men haue beene alwaies ready to yeelde vnto it But the learned fathers whereof you speake seeing that by the same subscription they could haue no aduantage against the truth haue coyned a new one of their own which we hold vtterly vnlawfull because it requireth our consent vnto the popish hierarchie vnto the Apocripha and many other corruptions The which course of theirs because they are not able to iustifie therefore haue you done well to finde out a waye whereby they may easilie determine of any question or difficultie mooued vnto them So that now if we deny to subscribe vnto that which against law they require of vs vntill we be satisfied in the douts wee make whether it may be lawfull for vs to maintaine the proud and ambitious superioritie of one minister aboue another the appointing of ignorant and godlesse men vnto the Ministerie the crosse in Baptisme the prophanation of that Sacrament by women with other manifolde abuses which we are vrged to approoue their answere may be according vnto your rule that they beeing the learned fathers of our Church haue in their lawfull assemblies decreed that this subscription should bee called for and they see no reason why popery being now bannished c. wee should not attribute as much vnto their decrees as other men in times past haue done Looke M. Bancroft in the place set downe before And so if we were dutifull children we would submit our selues without any wilful contradiction vnto their godlie determination seeing the Lord hath by his promise tied himselfe vnto them being his Church for this purpose Now if we shall reply any thing againe as being vnsatisfied by this resolution wee are presently cried out vppon as being giddie Spirites and men that cannot bee content with any good order established by lawe and approoued by our betters euen such as gaue their bloud for the testimony of the truth And thus in stead of answering our reasons they inuent slanders against vs and fall out with our conclusion according vnto Master Bancrofts manner of dealing Whereof as I haue often before admonished the reader so nowe I haue special occasion to put him in minde of the same concerning his dealing with vs touching the booke of common prayer and the point of her maiesties supremacy Wherein he spendeth 20. pages for the most part From the 50. to the 72. pages wee shewe diuers corruptions to be in that booke wee set downe the particulars as baptim by weomen crosse in baptime ring in matriage appropriating of garmentes to the vse of religion and grosser coruptions as Arianisme where the booke maketh Michael to bee a creature The Collect on Michaels day and addeth vnto the word as psalme 14. in which place 3. verses that is the 5.6.7 are added vnto the text more then euer the holy Ghost penned in that psalme with other grieuous corruptions which I passe ouer Nowe howe doth M. Bancroft thinke you deale for the credit of the booke in answering these particulars hee toucheth not one of them but first of all hee telleth his auditors howe glad al the churches in Europ were at the establishing of religion Page 15. in the beginning of her Maiesties raigne And for our partes wee wish them confusion that doe not reioice at it Page 53. From 54.58 Secondly hauing set down what paines was taken in reforming the booke hee bringeth in diuers testimonies of godlye learned men to prooue that the booke is in a manner without spotte or wemme whereby what doth hee els but fall out with our conclusion Wee charge the booke with diuers particular corruptions we bring our proofes Page 61. he is not able to answere them Therefore our conclusion wil stand firme that the booke is corrupt The general commendations of all the men in the world is not able to cleare it when it is not denied to containe many grosse particular falts Thirdely he falleth a quarreling with a newe communion booke preferred in parliament Page 62.63 the yeare 86. and caueleth diuers waies against the same As that it had bin diuers times altered that it mencioned not the ciuil magistrate in the first edition and that it doth not tye the minister to any set forme of prayer c. Al which points I omit as friuolous and vngodly cauils not to be stood vpon Lastly he falleth to his olde bias that is to plaine slaundering Page 67. and affirmeth that one of our reasons whie wee holde the established gouernment of the church of England to be Antichristian is because the ciuil Magistrate is made a Pope amongst vs and that we cal her maiesties supremacie vnto question wherevnto wee answere no otherwise then Nehemiah did Sanballat Nehem. 6.8 It is not done according vnto these wordes that thou sayest but thou fainest them of thine own hart Looke whatsoeuer prerogatiue in ecclesiastical or ciuil causes hee or any man liuinge can truly attribute vnto the ciuil magistrate wee
Bishop of Constantinople Theod. lib. 5. cap. 8. Where all these Bb. could bee gotten if Bb. and Ministers were not all one let M. Bancroft shew Lastly it would be knowne what account M. Bancroft maketh of that notable martyr M. Tindale M. Tindales works pag. 251. b. which speaking of priests and Bb. hath these words ther is presbyteros which same is saith he Acts. 20.28 imediatly after called a Bishop and in the same place all that were Elders or priests if they so will were called Bishops also though they haue deuided the name now I hope he will not answere him as hee doth Aerius that this opinion was condemned for an heresie long ago and none but heretikes and such leud persons euer since that time held it One thing I doe not a litle maruel at both in M. Bancroft and all the rest of his coat why they rather ioyne with Sir Thomas Moore and the papistes M. Tindals answer to Moore page 251. in calling the Ministers of the word priestes then with M. Tindale and the most sincere professours in the world at this day in abrogating that popishe name and vsing the worde Minister or Elder in the steade thereof Admon pa. 44. The B. of Winchester sayth that the Archbishop hath shewed sufficient reasons against T. C. why the Ministers of the gospell should bee called priests and all of them are of the same opinion and will not take it patiently if they be gainsaid in it but what account is to be made of them for this labor 〈…〉 shal learne out of M. Tindale page 14. 4. who in his obedience of a Christian man sayth that the worde Sacerdos should haue had another name in english then priest but that Antichrist hath deceiued vs with vnknowne and strange termes to bring vs into superstitious blindnes as for the word presbyteros saith he both in this place and against Moore in the place aboue cited it ought in English to bee translated Elder This I thought good to admonish the reader least hee should thinke mee in vsing the woorde priest to allowe of that Antichristian name Whether M. Cartwright hath truly alleadged Ignatius and others To the 98. pag. to prooue the vse and practise of the office of Elders in the Church long after the Apostles time because there is nothing but the pawn of M. Bancrofts credite brought to the contrary I referre the reader to examine the testimonies vsed by M. Cartwright for that purpose T. C. 1. reply 145. Especially the place of Ierome vpon Isaiah who saith that they had also the presbitery or eldership in the church and that of Ambrose vpon the 1. Tim. cap. 5. where he complaineth that through the pride slouthfulnes of the Doctors the Elders were worn out of the Church were it not that M. Chaplain carrieth his license in his bosome to speake what hee will I should wonder that he durst in open pulpit and writing deny elders to be in the church long after the Apostles time seeing D. Whitgift telleth vs of his owne knowledge that in the Primitiue Churche they had in euerie church certaine seniors to whome the gouernment of the congregation was committed Whit. pag. 638. M. Bancroft seeth there is no aduantage in granting any part of the truth and therefore hee taketh a round course to deny euery thing without more a doo Take his aduantage thereof who list His profanenes Page 98. in calling the Elders Aldermen the Lord I feare will reuenge who cannot abide to haue the officers of his kingdome derided and scoffed at by any Lucian whosoeuer Your caueling with the proofes To the 100.111 brought in by M. Cartwright to shew the Eldershippe to be most flowrishing in Constantines time iâ— a proofe that you retaine your vsuall boldnesse in out facing the truth If it bee not a good reason to say that because there were infinite numbers of Bishops and Elders at the councel of Nice therefore the Eldership was in a flowrishing estate at that time to what purpose should they be present in that synod if they had nothing to do with the gouernement of the church If they had to do with the gouernment of the church the reason holdeth most forcible to prooue the Eldership to be vp vnder Constantine For wheresoeuer there is a Church gouernement by Bishops and Elders there the Eldership is in force Though wee should graunt Page 101. that you deale truly with Eusebius yet his testimony is not a whit the weaker to proue the gouernment by the Eldership because he meaneth nothing els but to shew the great appearaunce from all places of the Cleargie men of all sortes in that assemblie Eor beit that his onely purpose was to shewe this great concourse of Cleargy men yet that hindereth not but hee speaking of Bishops and elders met at the said Synod we may thence gather Bishops and Elders did gouerne the church at that that time That Bishoppes had large jurisdiction before the Nicene councel is onely affirmed M Cart. 2. reply pag. 557.560 c. and not prooued by you M. Bancroft the contrary hath bene shewed It is your manner to build vpon false grounds which haue beene long since ouerthrone The appointing of Metropolitans or confirming whether you will at the councell of Nice hindered not the gouernement of the Eldership to be in force They had not such an vnruly jurisdiction as the Archbishops doe vsurpe The fifth Canon of the councell whereby it is decreed that the disorders of the church should bee compounded at the prouinciall assemblies not by that Metropolitans shew what smal authority they had They had but their owne suffrages as euery other minister had That which the councell of Nice attributed vnto them was no more then chiefe place in the meetinges Ibid. pag. 562. Aunswere that which M. Cartwright hath written in this question and then set downe your bolde conclusion otherwise the reader will deride your boldnes in pitching a campe of torne assertions whereof not one will be granted vnto you Faine would you I see haue the people not to giue eare vnto vs To the 103 104. page and to that purpose you bring vp to them the reasons that al Atheists haue for them selues whie they wil not embrace the true religion And that is because the professors thereof cannot agree among them selues The godly are not ignorant that there must bee scismes in the Church of God and therefore cannot stumble at the diuisions among vs â—â—i if they bee any Wee haue learned of the blessed Apostle to bee so farre from agreeing with any saue only in the truth as we hold our selues bound to bid battel vnto at the Angels iâ— heauen if they stand against the same Our breaches would bee easily made vp Pag if you woulde yeald the Church her right As for your side it is wel knowne howe little you agree saue only in the mayne drift whereat you must al shoot or els you shal soone fal to the ground And that is in standing against the truth Tot 111. maintaining outragious coruptions I haue alredy noted that you in this short inuectiue against vs haue twise scratched the Archbishop by the face and that in matters of waight The 3. last pages of his Sermon contain nothing in them but generall exhortations that the people would cleaue vnto the truth without wauering the which wee earnestly entreat all men to doe as they would bee saued in the day of the Lorde And from our hearts we wish if it be the Lords will both vnto them and to all our aduersaries and perticularlie vnto M. Bancroft that immortall crowne of glorie whereof he speaketh in the last page desiring them and him notwithstanding to call to minde that neither lyers Page 1 nor those that delight in lies especially against gods truth and his church shall euer be partakers thereof