Selected quad for the lemma: authority_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	church_n	power_n	synod_n	3,603	5	9.6685	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91879	The falsehood of Mr. VVilliam Pryn's Truth triumphing, in the antiquity of popish princes and Parliaments. To which, he attributes a sole, sovereigne, legislative, coercive power in all matters of religion; discovered to be full of absurdities, contradictions, sacriledge, and to make more in favour of Rome and Antichrist, than all the bookes and pamphlets which were ever published, whether by papall or episcopall prelates, or parisites, since the reformation. With twelve queries, eight whereof visit Mr. Pryn the second time, because they could not be satisfied at the first.	Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?	1645 (1645)	Wing R1672; Thomason E273_16; Thomason E282_11; ESTC R200048	28,156	36

right of Christian Princes for calling such Assemblies can any wayes make legall the present sitting of the Divines at Westminster or how he can make atonement for himselfe to give occasion that both their assembling and whole proceedings may thus be called in question But p. 88. you bring in a Parenthesis which doubtlesse the Assembly will thinke had far better beene left out that the assent of the Clergy is only by way of assistance and advice not simply necessary to the Parliaments determining what is heresie however for my part I do not much dissent with you therein and if the Assembly did like as well thereof should thinke it might somewhat qualifie their over forward and eager appetites which else might too likely lead them to declare those wayes hereticall after which Paul was not ashamed to say hee worshipped the God of his Fathers Act. 24. 14. But may not both Kings and Parliaments reprove you like an unlucky Cow who having given great quantity of milke kicks it downe with her foot for contradicting your selfe and plundring them so speedily of all Ecclesiasticall power which before in a good mood you cast upon them so liberally without allowance saying p. 141. That there is the selfe same reason and equity for severall combined Churches in a Councell Synod Presbytery to have a coercive power over every particular Congregation in their limits as for any particular Congregation to claime or exercise a jurisdiction in point of direction or correction over any or every particular member of it This assertion I conceive is yet more prodigious than all your Popish presidents with which you ever were acquainted and I beleeve that never any body hereafter will so much as acknowledge you in this opinion Whereas the Title of your Booke and whole Discourse in generall ascribe all power and authority unto the Civill Magistrate both in Civill and Ecclesiasticall matters This passage gives the same unto a Synod even a Coercive that is all Power and Authority and that both in Civill and Ecclesiasticall matters provided they doe but colour and call them Ecclesiasticall for nothing of Coercive can be otherwise than Civill properly If you excuse your selfe by saying you meant a Synod ratified by Authority of Parliament I answer that you must meane a Synod so ratified by Authority of Parliament as some Presbyterians of Scotland meane when they expect that Parliaments must doe it ex officio whether they bee willing or unwilling and if your meaning had been otherwise you might have brought your comparison betweene a Parliament and particular Congregations not a Synod besides that the power of direction which you acknowledge to be in every particular Congregation towards any or every member thereof I doe not finde to bee granted them or so much as medled with by Authority of Parliament so likewise if you will have it any wayes hold parallel you must meane the Synods Canons so confirmed by authority of Parliament as that the Parliaments confirmation must still wait upon and follow the Synods beck and requisition That part of the Statute 37. H. 8. c. 17. which you bring to establish the King Head of the Church sayes That by Holy Scripture All Authority and Power is wholly given to him to heare and determine All manner of causes Ecclesiasticall and to correct All vice and sinne whatsoever and such persons as his Majesty shall appoint thereunto So that whereas a negative voice which hath beene and is still the great controversie betwixt the King and Parliament in Civill matters only this Statute 37. H. 8. c. 17. with Mr. Pryns opinion and consequences thereupon doe freely grant the King in all spirituall causes and affaires Surely if all Englishmen did agree with Mr. Pryn in this particular the King might like enough be willing for the present to part from his negative voice in Civill matters in full assurance of regaining it in recompence of Pardons and Dispensations which he might grant by virtue of his Headship of the Church with the sole authority of correcting all vice and sinne and finall determining all causes Ecclesiasticall The truth is that Christian Kings and Princes have de facto done much with Civill censures in maintenance of Religion whether right or wrong established by Law But the point is what they did or might doe lawfully de jure Whence is their power derived Surely the power of Princes pretending to the name of Christian whether Papists Lutherans Calvinists Brownists or Anabaptists and even of Turkish and Pagan Princes is all alike So that whatsoever power the best Reformed Princes can justly assume unto themselves in Ecclesiasticall affaires even Popish Kings and the Great Turk may fully pretend and act as much in and about the Churches within their Territories and neither of them be more disobeyed or resisted than the other The power is given to them as Magistrates and Princes not as Christians otherwise they might be deposed at any time if they became Antichristian which is exploded for a Popish doctrine But as Artaxerxes did not make that Decree for building of the Temple out of love or conscience unto the God of Ezra Ezra 7. from v. 21. to 26. So can it not be concluded from Kings and Magistrates interposing their Civill power about matters meerly Ecclesiasticall that therefore they might and did doe it by full authority from God since by the selfe same manner of arguing it would follow that Popery were the truest Religion because most Christian Princes as they are called have established Popery But it may have beene observed how Princes and Magistrates in all ages who have had the Sword of Justice in their keeping have for the most part beene kept in an ignorant and superstitious overawfulnesse by the Clergy of those times who still for their owne private ends prevailed with them to countenance and enforce their Constitutions by coercive meanes upon the people by which device of theirs both Prince and People became so entangled and ensnared to them by degrees that if either of them afterwards sought to withdraw themselves forth from this bondage they still found such a party of the other as was able to curb and bring them againe into subjection of Holy Church as they pretended though never so Popish or otherwise corrupt And this series of corrupted and corrupting presidents with their tyrannicall dominion over mens faith and consciences which the Apostle Paul disclaimed 2 Cor. 1. 24. Mr. Pryn produces as orthodox requiring it should bee established after the manner of Medes and Persians irrevocable and made very Scripture of ascribing by this Antick rabble of quotations as great a power unto the Civill Magistrate in spirituall matters as ever any Pope of Rome assumed unto himselfe But if the Civill Magistrate must be masters of our faith determining all controversies in Church affaires why I pray was Mr. Pryn so refractory to the Bishops who then were authorised by the Civill Magistrate of the united Kingdome which now

pamphlets notwithstanding which have been published of late may be observed more corrupted principles and a far worse spirit of persecution than ever was discovered in the late Delinquent decapilated Archbishop from his first ascending unto his highest growth of authority and greatnesse and in the Diary of his life which I suppose Mr. Pryn printed not to do him honour though after ages will not be tyed to be no wiser than Mr. Pryn I finde such eminent signes of a morall noble pious minde according to such weake principles as hee had beene bred up in his owne persecuting disposition disabling him from being instructed better and particularly so ingenuous a passage in his Funerall Sermon whereby he justifies the Parliament in putting him to death as I may safely professe unto all the world I never could yet discerne any thing neare of like piety or ingenuity to be in Mr. Pryn by all that ever I yet heard of him from first to last or by all the bookes of his which ever came to may hands wherein yet I have hitherto done him the honour in being at charges to buy as many I meane one of every sort as I could ever meet withall But I wish seriously that both Presbyteriall Prelates and all others now surviving who are any wayes possessed with this unruly spirit this legion of persecution would even for their owne sakes not so suddenly forget the little late Arch-Prelate though his head bee off since for my part through some small knowledge and experience of him both in his life and death I am fully satisfied that his endeavouring to subvert the fundamentall Lawes of the Kingdome and introducing another Religion for which he was charged and suffered death arose only from that depraved principle of enduring no body of any other Religion or opinion but his owne I hope both Mr. Pryn and others of the same alay may thinke it worth revolving in their saddest thoughts Persecuters are worse than birds and beasts of rapine amongst the rest whom even Nature teaches to associate and joyne together against this common and most pestilent of all enemies Beares and Lions are not so hurtfull in a Country as a misguided zeale growne furious is torrent like and carries all before it Such whose Religion teaches to persecute or but prevailes upon to make use of Civill coercive meanes for differences of Religion of Opinion will easily be carried on from one degree unto another untill their ends be compassed whether by fire or water Gun-powder-plots or Maritim Invasions Nothing comes amisse to them whom Religion once innitiates with the cruelties of compelling consciences 'T is worth observing how whilest the truth constrained Mr. Pryn to acknowledge the Independents piety with their reall and cordiall affections and actions unto the Parliament and Church of England in his Epistle to the Parliament he tells them only that they are justly to bee blamed as great disturbers of our publicke peace and unity the better to amuse them whilst in his other pamphlets and this farraginous hotch-potch of obsolet Anticke Popish Histories and Presidents for the most part which perhaps he thinks few or none of them will voutsafe to read through he seeks to captivate and poyson the peoples understanding into an evill conception of the Independents and so incense them whilest he himselfe exclames traduces and persecutes them unto his power with fire and fagot meerly for nothing but because they sue and seeke for in all humility and meeknesse a possibility of keeping a good conscience both towards God and man This is all they desire as touching Ecclesiasticall matters let Mr. Pryn who thinks himselfe to have deserved so well of Parliaments become their Advocate procure but thus much for them and take the rest for his fees He flourishes and cryes out against the Arminians of the Netherlands about ascribing at the first unto the Civill Magistrate a power of passing ultimate judgements in all controversies of Faith and other Ecclesiasticall matters arising in the Church and afterwards contracting or denying such a power belonging to the Civill Magistrate Might he not even as well nay much better blame former Parliaments of England for first acknowledging the Pope head of the English Church and afterwards renouncing of the Pope much against his Holinesse his good liking no doubt to choose Henry 8. in his stead And if Henry 8. then but a Papist were a fit Head of the Church Queene Elizabeth was no lesse though the Papists cry out of a femall Head of the Church of England as much as Protestants of a femall Pope of Rome and then surely King Charles must have succeeded in this Headship of the Church of England and here I desire to leave him and yet to finde him here rather than a Presbyterian Synodall Head untill Mr. Pryn resolve me what it is to be Head of the English Church what his Power and Authority is over the Churches Body whether the Body may or can doe any thing without the Head And whether any or what power one member or part of the Body hath over another But before you put pen to paper or your paper to the Presse at least that you will remember how King Charles the only supreme Head of the English Church according to the oath of Supremacy is now at Oxford with such and so great a part of the English Nationall Church which if they should call another Assemby of Divines would likely passe judgement in sundry points of Faith and other Ecclesiasticall matters quite contrary to the Parliament and Divines at Westminster Page 29. of your Discourse you quote a passage out of the last Convocation Canons that had the c. in the tayle which you approve of saying The power to call and dissolve Councels both Nationall and Provinciall is the true right of all Christian Kings within their owne Realmes or Territories Now if this be so to what purpose doe the Assembly of Divines at Westminster spend time in sitting there Why should the Commonwealth be at 4s a day charges for each of them Why do they not repaire unto their flocks Where will King Charles his Writ appeare for summoning them and for want thereof will not all the paines they take be lost Might not therefore the disturbance and offence they give their Independent Brethren have well beene spared Are not both Houses of Parliament tacitly aspersed by Mr. Pryn for causing them thus to assemble without King Charles his Writ and so against his true Rights and Prerogative Royall and lastly if this be not an absolute making void and null whatsoever the Assembly shall conclude on or the Parliament establish by their advice besides a justifying of the Independents for not submitting thereunto let Mr. Pryn himselfe upon review be judge For certainly it will seeme strange to every body else how Mr. Pryn producing besides others in page 25 26 27 28 29. no lesse than foure of King Charles his letters only to prove the due

of Scotland Discipl pag. 89. THe Nationall Assemblies ought alwayes to be received in their owne liberty and have their owne place And all men as well Magistrates as inferiours to be subject to the judgement of the same in Ecclesiasticall causes without any reclamation or appellation to any judge Civill or Ecclesiasticall within the Realme Doctor Adam Stuart's second part of his Duply to the two Brethren p. 30. The Civill Magistrate is subject in a spirituall way unto the Church He must learne Gods will by the Ministers of the Church who are Gods Ambassadours sent to him He must be subject to Ecclesiasticall censures Mr. William Pryn in the Title page termes his Truth triumphing over Falshood A just and seasonable vindication of the undoubted Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction Right Legislative Coercive power of Christian Emperours Kings Magistrates Parliaments in all matters of Religion Church-government Discipline Ceremonies Manners Authour of the Pamphlet entituled The readinesse of the Scots advance into England 6. of November 1643. The Generall Assembly is subordinate to no Civill judicature whatsoever c. Apollonius Considerat Quarund Controvers c. p. 108. Particular Churches as well as Generall Assemblies have their authority immediately from God Mr. Thomas Edwards sayes in his Antapologia p. 163. Junius Zanchius Amesius c. make the subject matter of politicall adminstration to be res humanae humane things and matters but of Ecclesiasticall divine and sacred Page 166. Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall which the Presbyterians principles doe not as in matters of doctrine scandall c. And page 168. Spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ and by them Christ doth his worke And hence in Ecclesiasticall Discipline and those scandalls in the Church which are the point in hand punishments in the body or in the purse which can be by the power of the Magistrate have no place Divines of the Church of Scotland in a booke called A Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies obtruded upon the Church of Scotland p. 150. It followeth that Christ hath committed the power of judging defining and making lawes about those matters viz. which concern the worship of God not to Magistrates but to the Ministers of the Church Calvin Institut l. 4. c. 11. sect 16. Since the Church hath of its owne any power of compelling neither may require it I speake of Civill coercive power it is the duty of pious Kings and Princes to uphold Religion by their lawes edicts and judgements Junius Controvers 3. l. 3. c. 26. sect 12. Whereas some things are matters of conscience and belong to the judicatory of Heaven that I may speake according to the Canonists others humane and temporall appertaining to an earthly judicatorie in sacred divine and Church affaires the judgement is never lawfully committed unto the Civill Magistrate no not to the Emperour himselfe because holy things are of another Kingdome and cognizance Six Impossibilities which doe necessarily accompany persecution for cause of Conscience 1 IT is impossible that the Gospell should come to be preached unto all Nations if men may be questioned for matters of conscience 2 It is impossible that such as know but in part should grow in knowledge or from one measure and degree of faith unto another 3 It is impossible that in a rationall way there should be a firme secure peace throughout the world nay not in a Province City or Towne so long as men make a point of conscience to compell one another to their opinions 4 It is impossible to prescribe such a way for suppressing new or different opinions whatsoever which to any State or Church may seeme hereticall but there will still be left a gap a possibility of fighting against God even when such State or Church thinke they fight for him most of all 5 It is impossible that either the weake beleevers mis-beleevers or unbeleevers can be won by our godly conversation as is required 1 Pet. 2. 12. and 3. 1. 2. 1 Cor. 7. 12. 16. so long as we will not suffer them to live amongst us 6 It is impossible for a man to hold fast the truth or be fully perswaded in his owne heart of what he does of what Religion he makes choice of unlesse after he hath searched the Scriptures and try'de the spirits whether they be of God or no it be lawfull for him to reject that which shall appeare to him as evill and adhere to that which seems good in his owne judgement and apprehension The Falshood of Mr. William Prynn's Truth Triumphing briefly discovered Sir YOur Title sayes Truth triumphing over Falshood Antiquity over Novelty you meane I suppose Antick Truth over Novel Falshood And the truth is whoever considers your ensuing Discourse will finde it to bee Antick Truth very Antick such as to the Reformed World of Christians would well neere have quite been antiquated and totally become ridiculous had not such unskilfull Antiquaries as William Prynne of Lincolns Inn Esquire taken so much unnecessary and thankles paines in gathering them up from Dunghills and by whole Volumnes and Impressions to delude and cozen the unstable people of his party the truth whereof that himselfe and all others into whose hands this paper happens may suddenly perceive besides the severall absurdities and contradictions let them only take notice that both the Truth and Antiquity hee so much speakes and boasts of are deduced only from the abominable presidents of superstitious Popery some whereof I shall particularly and yet briefly mention as I finde them confusedly pestred amongst themselves in the undigested rapsody of his more vaine Discourse But before I leave the specious Title thereof I desire all Readers may observe how amongst others you terme it a Vindication of the undoubted Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction Legislative of Christian Emperours by Scripture texts as if amongst your Antick readings you had discovered some New-found-Land wherein you would make your over credulous Disciples thinke there had lived Christian Emperours before or at the writing of the Scriptures who verified your Antick Doctrine and Assertions This Grand taske like a very Atlas you pretend to take upon you in Refutation of Mr. John Goodwin without so much as disturbing any of his arguments or of the Answers to your twelve Questions which both your Epistle and the latter part of your Booke take notice of but because you cannot make a satisfactory Reply and yet are not so ingenuous as to acknowledge it and yeeld to Truth you traduce as malicious and full of virulencie against Presbytery and the Scots page 125. and worse then the Popish Gunpowder plot Epist Dedic Are not these powerfull Arguments able to confute the very Apostles had they but been alledged in their dayes by such an irreconcileable and implacable spirit as is Mr. Prynn's witnesse besides others his proceedings against Colonell Fines Surely your friends will

thinke you have better in your budget or be ashamed of you when they have leisure but to consider of it 'T is true you complaine that Mr. Rutherfords due Rights of Presbytery Mr. Thomas Edwards his Anti-Apologia and Gulielmus Apollonius with the Vallacrean Ministers were never answered 'T is likely the Independents doe not desire to make no nor bee thought to have any difference with their Scotch Brethren if possibly to be avoided and you know the Proverb sayes The second blow makes the fray And though you would not take notice of a compleatly fit and full answer to Mr. Edwards and so much the more because 't was made by a milde meeke spirited servant of God quite contrary to that of Mr. Edwards his I hope Mr. Pryn will no longer say Mr. Edwards is not answered now that Mr. Chidley hath so clearly and fairly foyld him the second time And that you may see Apollonius speakes no better Latine for Presbytery than you doe English please but to cast your eye upon cap. 3. p. 44 45. in answer to the Assemblies letters to the Churches of Zealand where he sayes in substance That the body of Beleevers in generall have not a power of governing and judging Ecclesiasticall matters by any spirituall jurisdiction but that the Presbyters themselves have received this power of ruling immediately from Christ the King of the Church which what ever he alleadge to prove it with these grosse absurdities besides how many others will plainely follow 1. That all Church Officers have either intruded themselves into their offices or else they must have beene thrust in by some supernaturall meanes of the latter there is no evidence of the former there is no allowance 2. If the Beleevers the Brethren did not choose the Officers so neither might they turne them out 3. Then in such case it would bee in the Officers power to tyrannize even to the highest extent their owne lust should lead them to without any just authority on earth to question or restraine them for if their Presbytery their officiating their governing ruling be by divine Right and not the peoples free choice however they behave themselves in it they cannot be turned out by the people But how doth it appeare that they have their Office or Eldership immediately from God Is it sufficient for them to say so Then may any other number of their Brethren pretend the like He alleadges 2. Cor. 5. 20. Now then we are Ambassadours for Christ as though God did beseech you by us We pray you in Christs stead be yee reconciled to God But may not so many Tinkers use the very same Text and saying they are Christs Ambassadours thrust themselves over any Congregation in the world if this be faire dealing If there goes no more thereunto but confidence and laying claime hee that can justle hardest will doubtlesse get it though Simon Magus could not carry it with money But what kinde of Ambassadours did Paul make himselfe and those Primitive Christians to be What power did they take upon them And how farre They were Christs Ambassadours we know them by their entreating mildnesse gentlenesse and long-suffering as in the same 2 Cor. 5. 20. with Rom. 15. 1. Gal. 6. 1. 2. 1. Pet. 5. 2. 2 Tim. 4. 2. Eph. 4. 2. But the Prelaticall Presbytery the pretended Ambassadours of Christ in these times wee know to be Wolves that worry sterve or flea the very Lambes of Christ alive and as if their cruelty were not satisfied with the destruction of their bodies endeavour what they can to put a yoake of bondage upon the very soules of their Brethren Act. 20. from v. 28. to 31. Matth. 20. 25 26. 3 Joh. 9. The other place produced is 1 Cor. 4. 1. Let a man so account of us as of the Ministers of Christ and Stewards of the mysteries of God but the Presbyters which wee speake of instead of taking upon them a Ministery lay claime unto a Jurisdiction Dominion a Prelaty Instead of being Stewards they command require expecting lordly obedience and submission They scorne to use entreating and beseeching as Paul the aged 2 Cor. 10. 1. 3. stet pro ratione voluntas is their motto their symboll Thus we may see the Texts produced to maintaine the Presbyteriall government to be of Divine Right make eminently against it neither is it more evident in Scripture than from reason and experience to wit That what power the Presbyters have and exercise they have it from man and not immediately from God since the Brethren doe either explicitly or implicitly make choice of them and might as well have chosen any other if they had pleased Church Officers are no more immediately from God than Civill Officers The truth is Apollonius acknowledges the Presbyterie to bee the Representative Church but denies the meanes without which I never yet knew it pretended so much as possible to bee constituted First he sayes Multitudo fidelium in Ecclesia potestatem regendi jurisdictione spirituali negotia Ecclesiastica dijudicandi non habet jure Dei proinde eam senioribus Presbyteris delegare non potest Hoc sensu igitur Representativam Ecclesiam non agnoscimus Nec talem agnoscimus Ecclesiam Representativam quae à multitudine fidelium missa absolutam potestatem per leges jurisdictiones actus suos obligandi multitudinem ejus fidem conscientias subjiciendi ita ut absque examine ut laudatum susciperet quicquid ab hac Ecclesia statutum foret At Ecclesiam Representativam hanc ex sacris literis agnoscimus quae est caetus Presbyterorum à multitudine Ecclesiae electus qui authoritate jurisdictione Ecclesiasticâ à Christo accepta Ecclesiae praeest invigilat decretis secundum sacram Scripturam factis jurisdictione spirituali eam regit which in effect is thus First That Beleevers in generall have no power to judge concerning Church affaires therefore they cannot give or derive unto the Presbyters what they themselves never had and secondly that the Lawes of Country are not sufficient to authorise Beleevers for choosing Church Commissioners who may afterwards oblige them and their consciences by whatsoever decrees shall be by them agreed upon without examining it themselves But sayes he a Representative Church is an Assembly of Presbyters chosen by the multitude who having received Ecclesiasticall authority and jurisdiction from Christ doe watch over the Church and governe it according to the Scripture To him therefore or Mr. Pryn that quotes him I should desire to make these following Queries The truth is Apollonius acknowledges the Presbyterie to bee the Representative Church but denies the meanes without which I never yet knew it pretended so much as possible to bee constituted First he sayes Multitudo fidelium in Ecclesia potestatem regendi jurisdictione spirituali negotia Ecclesiastica dijudicandi non habet jure Dei proinde eam senioribus Presbyteris delegare non potest Hoc sensu igitur

Representativam Ecclesiam non agnoscimus Nec talem agnoscimus Ecclesiam Representativam quae à multitudine fidelium missa absolutam potestatem per leges jurisdictiones actus suos obligandi multitudinem ejus fidem conscientias subjiciendi ita ut absque examine ut laudatum susciperet quicquid ab hac Ecclesia statutum foret At Ecclesiam Representativam hanc ex sacris literis agnoscimus quae est caetus Presbyterorum à multitudine Ecclesiae electus qui authoritate jurisdictione Ecclesiasticâ à Christo accepta Ecclesiae praeest invigilat decretis secundum sacram Scripturam factis jurisdictione spirituali eam regit which in effect is thus First That Beleevers in generall have no power to judge concerning Church affaires therefore they cannot give or derive unto the Presbyters what they themselves never had and secondly that the Lawes of Country are not sufficient to authorise Beleevers for choosing Church Commissioners who may afterwards oblige them and their consciences by whatsoever decrees shall be by them agreed upon without examining it themselves But sayes he a Representative Church is an Assembly of Presbyters chosen by the multitude who having received Ecclesiasticall authority and jurisdiction from Christ doe watch over the Church and governe it according to the Scripture To him therefore or Mr. Pryn that quotes him I should desire to make these following Queries At what time doe the Presbyters receive their Church power from Christ By what meanes and mediation Whether before they be chosen Presbyters or afterwards If before Whether did this power lye idle in them till they became Presbyters And might it not possibly have continued so all their life time if they had never beene chosen Presbyters or are they predestinated to bee chosen when Christ has once made a deed of gift unto them of some considerable proportion of spirituall power But if we see they cannot exercise any spirituall power untill they be chosen Presbyters and that wee might have chosen others as well as they Doe you thinke the people will ever bee brought to thinke they have any other jurisdiction than what they give and suffer them to enjoy Whether doe the Presbyters ever part from their spirituall power after they have once received it and how come they to lose possession and the exercise thereof ever after Surely if these Queries be well answered all the power the Presbyters have besides what the people derive unto them will be one of the strongest phantasticall delusions and Chimera's which ever yet was heard of But because you make so much of Apollonius since he is upon the Stage if the indifferent Reader please to runne over these few following passages he will not only finde him contradict himselfe but Mr. Pryn also in the very title and whole subject matter of his Book Mr. Pryn throughout this volumne of his affirmes and endeavours to prove that Princes and Parliaments have the sole soveraigne and legislative power in all matters of Religion both for Discipline and Doctrine On the contrary Apollonius sayes it is in Ecclesiasticall Assemblies and Synods in these words c. 6. p. 107. Competit ex jure Dei Ecclesiis in Classibus Synodis junctis potestas Canones legesque Ecclesiasticas ferendi quae omnes Ecclesias particulares unius Provinciae aut Regni constringunt ad obedientiam which is in effect That Ecclesiasticall Assemblies Synods have by Divine Right a power of making Canons and Ecclesiasticall Lawes which doe binde unto obedience all the particular Churches of a Province or Kingdome he may as well say of all the world and p. 109. He tells us that That Vnion and Communion of particular Churches in Ecclesiasticall Discipline and Government common to them all which is exercised in Synods and Classes is of Divine Right and proposed to us in the example of the Apostolicall Church for imitation Thus is Apollonius point blanke in opposition to Mr. Pryn neither is he at better agreement with himselfe for p. 108. He sayes The power of Synods doth not take away or disturb the Ecclesiasticall power and liberty of particular Churches but serves to direct conserve and promote their Ecclesiasticall power and liberty that they may become more efficacious powerfull and fit to edifie and yet p. 144. He sayes Classibus Synodis competit authoritativa quaedam inspectio judicium non tantum discretionis sed jurisdictionis approbationis in excommunicationibus à particularibus Ecclesiis peragendis ita ut nulla Ecclesia particularis quae communionem suam Ecclesiasticam cum aliis Ecclesiis in Synodis Classibus colit aliquod suae communionis membrum excommunicare Sathanae tradere legitimè possit absque Classis aut Synodi authoritativo judicio approbatione that is There is due to Classes and Synods a certaine authorative inspection and judgement not only of discretion but also of jurisdiction and approbation in excommunications to bee passed by particular Churches so that no particular Church which keepes Ecclesiasticall fellowship with other Churches assembled in a Synod may lawfully excommunicate or deliver up to Sathan any of their members without the authoritative judgement and approbation of the Synod and to mend the matter he yet tells us p. 108. That the power which particular Churches have is granted them immediatly from ●od not derived unto them by Synods as also that the power of Synods is granted them immediately from God not derived to them from particular Churches which is as much as if he had said that each of them must bee Independent and absolute of it selfe and yet one must submit unto the other contradiction upon contradiction or else I understand it not But to returne againe to Mr. Pryn himselfe who would thinke that any one who had but the head-piece of a man much lesse one that takes upon him to be a Champion should be so miserably transported with vain-glory as thus to play the Bragadocio and fill the world with bookes and pamphlets as if hee had got the victory or spoken somewhat to the purpose when yet it may appeare upon due search of an indifferent judge that neither in the whole catalogue of his bookes which was lately printed nor in whatsoever came since to light will there be found so much as one leafe truly worth reading or any whit availing him in this controversie which he not without recanting in his owne heart I beleeve by this time to see he thrives no better in it hath undertaken against the Independents remaining still so shamelesse that not being able to conceale or any longer to uphold his vaine undertaking flyes unto the High Court of Parliament endeavouring to exasperate their power against such whose prayers and contributions in likelihood have been the only or chiefest meanes to keepe him thus long alive But alas what can we expect of this volumne of Civill-Common-Law-Divinity of yours when you acknowledge it to be distracted subitane collections indigested nocturnall

lucubrations you may like enough say dreames borrowed from the houres allotted to your necessary naturall rest Epist Dedic One would have thought the Answerer of your subitane apprehensions digested into 12 considerable serious questions when you confessed you had neither leisure nor opportunity had given you a seasonable and sufficient item not to trouble the world with such trash againe and yet you are not ashamed to say you published them principally for satisfaction of the learned and such as most seduce the ignorant when doubtlesse such learning as this of yours is good for nothing else but to seduce the ignorant who more admire a margent full of rusty antick Authours than whole leaves and chapters of arguments and sound reason and according to your own arguing you do hereby as you think with your indigested readings of superstitious Popish writers enable such as you call learned still farther to seduce the ignorant You tell the Parliament in your Epistle Dedicatory that having had the honour of vindicating their sovereigne power in all Civill and Military affaires you expected a quietus est from all other coutroversies concerning the jurisdiction of Parliaments especially in Ecclesiasticall matters Surely you might have said with as much truth and reason that having vindicated the sovereigne power of the Roman Emperours suppose the persecuting Nero Domitian Trajan or who else lived in any of the Apostles or Primitive times you had likewise vindicated their legislative power in matters of Christianity about propagating the Gospell c. justifying them in putting to death our Saviour and so many of his Saints The just rights and power of Magistrates are to all Magistrates alike all one whether they be Christian or Pagan Their power is given them as Magistrates not as Christians and the subjection which we were commanded in the Gospell Matth. 22. 21. Rom. 13. 1. 1 Pet. 2. 12. 13. to render them was as to Heathen Magistrates since at that time there were no other But why tro doe you say how most men imagined that controversies about the Parliaments jurisdiction in Ecclesiasticall matters had been put to eternall silence when our lordly Prelates lost their votes and session in Parliament by a publique law Did you not intend that Presbyters should succeed Bishops or did you thinke them to be lesse lordly than their Reverend Fathers from whom they spring Surely you show your selfe very ignorant of the Presbyterians pretences or endeavour much to conceale them Meethinks you might have seen a Pamphlet entituled The readinesse of the Scots advance into England wherein besides others is a letter bearing date the 6 of November 1643. from Edenborough upon occasion as it relates of certaine propositions made by the French Agent unto the Privy Councell there which sayes The Generall Assembly is subordinate to no Civill judicature whatsoever c. And because I finde Mr. Pryn so captious and apt to seeke subterfugies lest he should cast this off as the bare assertion of some Anonimous he may if hee please finde not a little to the same purpose in A. Stewards Observations and Annotations upon the Apologeticall Narration in these words The Civill Magistrate arrogates not unto himselfe not so much as any directive power in matters of Religion p. 5. The Civill Magistrate arrogates no spirituall authority to himselfe p. 48. The Parliament indeed is the supreme Judicature severe Tribunall the most sacred Refuge c. in Civill causes but it pretends no directive power in matters of Religion by teaching or preaching or judging of controversies of Religion nor any executive power that is intrinsecall to the Church as in the vocation deposition and suspention of Ministers c. which are meerly spirituall p. 6. If your meaning be that the Parliament should judge between the Independents and Presbyterians you goe against the Parliaments intentions ibid. and lastly For intrinsecall spirituall power it is not in your power to grant the Civill Magistrate any at all neither can you give him more spirituall obedience than Scripture permitteth you or give him a part of the spirituall power which you have received of God It is only in God who can give power therein to any man we dare not be so bold p. 28. All this the Answerer of your 12 considerable Questions as you called them auvertised you of in p. 26. And for Apollonius whom you so much glory in as I told you a little before he sayes that both particular Churches as well as Generall Assemblies have their authority immediately from God p. 108. which diametricall variance amongst these Presbyterian Champions doubtlesse must needs be ominous and presage no lesse than ruine so much more speedier as they protract the reconciling them In which respect if Mr. Pryn would be so good for the Gospels sake as to give the Independents rest and take A. S. with Apollonius to taske who knowes but that they may doe some good upon one another I am sure it were not more than needfull each of their phansies abounding with excrescencies which they might much advantage each other in cutting off But what availeth it to have the head of one lordly Episcopall Prelate cut off when a Hydra a multitude above 77 times as many Presbyteriall Prelates succeed instead thereof Prelatia Prelaty Prelacy as we use it vulgarly is a preferring one before another and the Presbyteriall government is much more truly said to be Prelaticall than either Episcopall or Papall unlesse you will say that neither Episcopall nor Papall be Prelaticall at all for in either of those Governments there are but few Prelates but in the other there are many to wit so many Prelates as there are Presbyters each whereof is an absolute Prelate that is one preferred above his Brethren You speake of the defunct Prelates soules transmigrated into the Independents acknowledging them for the most part really cordiall in their affections actions to the Parliament and Church of England for which and for their piety you say they are to be highly honoured But mee thinks this amounts to little lesse than contradiction Can the earthly Tabernacles of Independents with the defunct Prelates soules in them make men of piety cordiall in their affections actions to the Parliament and Church of England highly to bee honoured I wish Mr. Pryn would tell me whether it were the Prelaticall soules or their earthly Tabernacles for whose sake he casts this grand Elogium on them Doubtlesse the soule must have preheminence of the body unlesse your minde bee altered and hold the immortality of the soule which you seemed to discountenance in your 12 Inconsiderable serious Questions p. 7. But if Independents having Prelaticall soules in their earthly Tabernacles are for the most part men of piety highly to be honoured why should not the Prelates bee so too The truth is I cannot deny but Mr. Pryn was once by more then a many and they godly too held to be a man of piety and was highly honoured in whose books and

to the universall griefe is so mortally divided These are hard questions I confesse but Mr. Pryn will get the more glory when hee knowes how to answer them If the Arminians upon the improving of their studies about their other controversies or the Civill Magistrates bad imploying a power ascribed but not due to them saw their errour and amended must they be upbrayded I would be loath that Mr. Pryn should want of such encouragements of providence and mercy lest it might hinder his repentance of what I feare mee he is too highly guilty God is contented to tole us to him and to his truth even with variety of inticements and provocations fraile mankinde is dull and stupid no lesse than Gods infinite wisdome together with his unmeasurable bounty will serve to animate and raise us up to new discoveries of knowledge and obedience Take this then for your learning that whosoever attributes to any man or Magistrate a power of imposing any thing upon the consciences of others in matters of Religion doe justifie them in whatsoever they impose though it be erroneous so they impose according to their owne judgements and understandings condemning the other for not submitting though it be unto erroneous impositions for if the one may impose his owne reason must teach him what he may impose And if he have just authority to impose the other is obliged in conscience to obey and so by consequence should be engaged to submit implicitly to whatsoever superstitious ceremonies and worship were put upon him In your Epistle to the Reader you say the Independents may upon the same grounds deny the Catholicke Church an article of the Creed upon which they deny a Nationall Church as though so many more particular Churches might not as well make one Catholick as severall but yet so many fewer Nationall Churches or as though particular Christians who lived stragling in Turky or any Pagan Countries where they could not possibly be members of a Nationall Church could not possibly be members of the Catholique Church You accuse the Independents as beleeving most things with a reserve according to their present light with a liberty of changing as new light shall bee discovered to them But did ever any man so overshoot himselfe Certainly this is so high a character of the Independents compleatest posture ensuring or growing stature in the Schoole of Christ as could be applyed unto them wherein they glory not a little and place it as the only ground-worke and foundation without which they cannot grow in grace from one degree of faith unto another untill they become perfect Men perfect Saints unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ Eph. 4. 12 13. and yet your Law-Divinity knowes no better than to say this is in truth to bring a Skepticisme into Religion And whereas you say their principles dissolve all relations all subordinations and humane society it self I answer that this is even as if you should affirme a Turke not to be a man unlesse he will bee a Christian unlesse he will be a member of some Nationall Church nay of every Nationall Church since his not being of any one is all alike prejudiciall or damageable But they are the Presbyteriall and such other Prelaticall tenets which destroy and expressely murder all humane society in avouching as William Pryn with his ense recidendum and A. Stewart does that sayes whosoever is cut off or cast out of the Church must likewise be cast out and cut off from the Civill state p. 166. in 2. part of his Duply c. Sir I confesse I have spent more time and paper about your Epistles than I intended which if you and the Reader will but excuse I shall endeavour to make you amends in part by troubling you the lesse with your rusty musty rubbish of Popish times and presidents Page 1. Your first proposition is That the calling of Synods or Assemblies about Church matters belongs not to Bishops Ministers nor private or particular Congregations but to Princes or supreme temporall Magistrates and Powers So that if the Magistrate be Turkish under whose jurisdiction live many Protestant Greekes I meane such as disavow the Pope with the greatest part of his unsound doctrine If he be Popish as the Emperour of Germany with the Kings of France and Polonia in whose territories inhabit millions of Protestants all which Protestants must never meet together in Synods and Assemblies about Church affaires because those Emperours and Kings are never likely to summon Synods for them or put them in minde to doe it themselves You still quote multitudes of texts to prove your Propositions with in hopes perhaps that if one faile you another may doe the deed but you happen to be so successelesse therin as if you used still to presse the Scriptures which came first to hand ranking them in your margent whether they would or no which 't is true has stood you in stead no more than a forc't Militia does the King or Parliament yet doubtles that God with whom the Word was from the beginning and who is the very Word Joh. 1. 1. will not approve that his blessed Word should be made use 〈◊〉 and imployed so vainly impertinently preposterously rashly and irreverently Wherefore I would gladly advise Mr. Pryn for the future to insert the very words themselves of every text hee quotes in hopes that if he doe but once read them over by himselfe he will finde they make nothing to the purpose and so have ingenuity enough to leave them out After you have done belying sacred Scripture you flye for assistance unto prophane and from thence tell us by whose authority the first Generall Councells were convocated which proves nothing else but that whether it be King or Parliament that have the strongest sword or shall prevaile and get the better over the other in this Civill War the Assembly of Divines now at Westminster must sit no longer not any of their coat ever meet againe above two in company unlesse the present ruling party please lest they be tearmed a Conventicle and fall into a Pramunire But by what authority tro did the pretended Synod of Jerusalem assemble Act. 15. What Kings or Parliaments Writs or Letters-patents had they for so doing What Court countenance did they procure to second their proceedings for my part I had rather follow such a president and erre with them if you will needs esteem it such than degenerate with the weaker Christians of after ages in supplicating of Powers and Princes in such a manner whereby they should be moved to thinke I granted them such a power as God never gave them or confirmed them in supposing they had a just liberty of denying what through want perhaps of Christian courage only or the Civill powers protection I durst not put in practice without their order and commission Page 4. I am glad to finde you acknowledging a passage of the Bishops letters wherein they return