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A91561 A discreet and judicious discourse betweene vvisdome and pietie, two worthy members. Wherein is declared the power and jurisdiction of Parliaments in their proceedings, and in the alteration of church government. Written by R. P. R. P. 1642 (1642) Wing P98; Thomason E142_19; Thomason E136_21; ESTC R15528 2,839 8

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A DISCREET AND IVDICIOVS DISCOVRSE BETWEENE VVISDOME AND PIETIE Two worthy Members Wherein is declared the Power and Iurisdiction of Parliaments in their proceedings and in the alteration of Church Government Written by R. P. Printed at London 1642. HONI SOIT QVI MAL Y PENSE A discreet and judicious Discourse betweene WISDOME and PIETY two worthy Members Piety SIr I rejoyce much at our so happy meeting in this place I hope leisure will now permit us to conferre of these times and the proceedings of the High Court of Parliament in setling the disorders in this State and such a forme of governement in the Church as I hope will be congruent to the sence and true meaning of the Word of God Wisdome Sir I joy as much as you for our meeting and I hope we may spend a little time in discourse of those things you have mentioned I conceive it will not be lost time nor much hinderance to our other occasions And under favour Sir pray what thinke you of the proceedings of the Parliament concerning Church Government and Ecclesiasticall discipline Piety A Parliament pray Sir what meane you by the word and what is the signification thereof Wisdome The word is compounded of and derived from the French and Latine words as I conceive Parle Mentis which I understand signifies a speech of the Minde contracted Parlement or Parliament and I meane thereby a Councell of grave and learned men congregated and assembled by their Princes command and authority to consult and debate freely speaking clearely what is their minde and intentions such things tending to the safety and prosperity of their King and Countrey and what forme of Governement is meetest to bee used in the Church in the exercise of Religion Piety I conceive your definition of the word is good but I desire to know whether it bee in the power of such a Councell or Parliament to alter the Governement of a Church established and confirmed for severall ages together in a Kingdome both by the Princes thereof successively and a whole Councell of State gathered together and assembled in Parliament Wisdome To answer your request I conceive it is in the power of a Parliament with their Princes consent to alter the Governement of the Church I can give you instances of the same The Romish Religion was a long time in this Kingdome practised and professed confirmed by severall Kings and Parliaments of this Land untill the 28. yeare of the raigne of Henry 8. Then did that Prince and his Parliament begin to alter the Governement of the Church and in the 31. of his raigne hee perfected his intentions in a totall change of the Government thereof Abolished and demolished all places of worship according to the doctrine and discipline of the Church of Rome as Abbies Monasteries Priories Nunneries and the like the lands and demeanes appertaining to the same were given to the Crown as also the worship it selfe This forme of Government attended onely with some Ceremonies of the Church of Rome continued this Kings raigne till Edward 6. in whose raigne was a further and more perfecter change in the Governement of the Church then before Now was Bibles and other Divine bookes ordained by the King and his great Councell to be translated into the English tongue a forme of Common-prayer made and confirmed by Parliament to bee used in the English tongue the administration of the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Baptisme used according as in the Ancient and Primitive Church which forme of government and worship of God is now called the Protestant Religion This Government and Alteration continued but a small time till the raigne of Queene Mary who againe reduced Popery to its height in this Kingdome This change continued till Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory who againe set up the Protestant Church which hath ever since till of late flourished in this Kingdome and thus you plainly see a Parliament may with the consent of their Prince alter the Government of the Church and the discipline thereof to that forme which the Prince stands most affected too Piety But pray Sir if a Catholique Prince come to raigne over a Kingdome wherein the Protestant Religion is altogether professed and established Is it then in the power of the Parliment without the consent of the King to make Lawes and Ordinances for the confirmation of their Religion in the Government Doctrine and Discipline thereof Wisdome This question is difficult to be resolved and I cannot punctually determine thereof but I conceive if over such a State there bee such a Prince that is not a native of that Kingdome a Parliament of the whole State assembled may without his consent establish and confirme the ancient Laws and Statutes of the Kingdome for the Government of the Church and State But whether it be so if a native Prince I cannot certainly resolve Piety I verily beleeve the Parliament hath power and authority to change upon occasion the Government of the Church in contrary Religions as before is inst●●ced but I am not yet satisfied whether a Parliament either with consent of the Prince or without can alter a forme of Governement established in a Kingdome concerning one Religion be it the Protestant or other Wisdome To answer this I conceive the Doctrine of the Church cannot be altered for then we doe change our Religion and are not of the same as before but of a new but the Government and Discipline of a Church may be changed according as the wisdome and policy of the State shall finde the same convenient or inconvenient hurtfull or commodious for the same Piety Nay the Titles Places and Offices of men of holy Order be at the pleasure of a Parliament changed or quite taken away being of such antiquity in the Church as Lord Bishops Bishops Archdeacons De●●es Prebends and the like Wisdome I conceive their Titles may bee changed or taken away as Lords Bishops Archdeacons c. for no such names are to be found in the Scripture or by the same warranted Their places of both Temporall and spirituall Jurisdiction as they are made the onely Governours of the Church and of the State too may if a State finde them hurtfull and prejudiciall to the same be taken away and changed but for their Spirituall functions and offices of Bishops or Presbyters I conceive the same cannot be changed or taken away with-safety or security But the sole power and jurisdiction in government of the Church may be taken from particular persons and assistance of grave Divines joyned with them in the same as the wisdome of the Parliament shall see me meet Piety But may a State Politique and Civill change the government of the Church and establish a new sonnic of government in the same without advise of a Councell or Synod of Divines that are grave and learned elected and chosen out of every County of the Kingdome and their consents to the change of government in the Church Wisdome I conceive the Parliament as it is an Assembly of Lay men and none of them in holy Order cannot of its selfe change the government of a Church without advise and consent of the Clergy But I beleeve it is in the sole power of Parliament to make choyce of such Divines as shall informe them concerning what Government and Discipline is most convenient for the Church and what not Piety Then cannot a Synod or Convocation of the Clergy be assembled without authority of Parliament and what Ordinances is made in the same by them are of no validity without confirmation by the King and Parliament Wisdome No truly I beleeve there cannot and what is done by a Synod or Convocation without consent and confirmation of King and Parliament is not binding to the Subject And now thanking you lovingly for your good discourse I must take my leave of you till another time wishing all things may be done in Parliament to the honour of God firme establishment of true Religion and such a forme of government in the Church as may be agreeble to the Word of God and the setling of peace and unity in all his Majesties Kingdomes Piety Amen God be with you Sir till out next meeting Wisdome I thanke you heartily FINIS