Selected quad for the lemma: authority_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	church_n	power_n	synod_n	3,603	5	9.6685	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85414	A short ansvver to A. S. alias Adam Stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. Together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which A. Stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. A. Steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page 166. The civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say Presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1644 (1644)	Wing G1201; Thomason E27_6; ESTC R8324	30,557	41

subjects are freed from their obedience to them and the people which having al power in themselves originally become the supremest Magistrate of al are bound to cut them off from the Civill State whether they be Kings or Parliaments But let us beware of such Infernal tenets according unto which there would be found no safety neither for Prince nor Parliament but each of them and everie body else all alike be forced to be of whatsoever religion shall by most voyces in a Consistorie or Synod be thought to be the true one which is too great a hazard or else be deemed to doe presumptuously and so loose their lives But ch. 3. you say if the Church be corrupt and the Church Officers negligent in their charge and will not reforme it the Civill Magistrate may command yea compell them to do it or if they will not he may extraordinarily do it himselfe Good now who shall here reach the Civil Magistrate whether the Church be corruptor no At what time the Church Officers be negligent in their charge not willing to reforme and when they oppresse any man with Ecclesiasticall censures If you say the Civil Magistrate himselfe may see it by bringing them to the rule of Gods word do you not contradict your selfe in page 30. and elsewhere saying the Civil Magistrate must learn Gods will by the Ministers who are Gods Ambassadours sent unto him is it possible to reconcile the Civil Magistrate unto the spirituall office-bearers in such a case as this nay is it ever possible for AS to make his atonement with this present Assembly for frustrating so many yeares endeavours as they are like to make of it in saying the Civil Magistrate hath power not to admit the true Church to reject it yea when it is received or approved and confirmed by his secular and Civil authority to reject it and exile it Ibid which yet is true enough but do you think the Synod would have taken soe great paines and our Scotch brethren have sacrificed so much of their own blood if even at best it should have been so hazardous whether ever their Presbyterian discipline should be received or no or when received rest in ●uch dayly danger to bee turned out againe with shame Is it not an ea●●y matter for the Civil Magistrate to say these Presbyterian Churches are growne corrupt their way of government was never Apostolical and good they Tyrannize over their brethren insted of feeding them aiming at no Reformation soe much as to get themselves into the fattest Benifices and so banish them into America or some worse place Woe would it have beene for any Independent to have beene knowne to publish such Theologie such Heresie Page 47. You say How be it the Church compell men not by externall vi●l●●ce to subscribe contrary to their judgements yet the Civil Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell you to subscribe or to be gon c. The Church you say compels not externally but the Civil Magistrate may But whence hath the Civil Magistrate this power in Church affaires or why may not the Church use the Civil externall armes in Church matters rather then the Civil Magistrate should e●terpose with his owne weapons in Church affaires Is it not all one think wee in the sight of God for Church-men Church Officers themselves to hang such a one whom they deeme a Heretick as to set a crosse a gallowes a marke upon him out of a tacit compact with the Civil Magistrate to hang him whensoever or wheresoever He should meet with him If a combination of any people should thus compasse the death of any man would they not all equally bee found guiltie shall a politick reservation of Popish Canon or Civil law to keepe the Clergie from the peoples odium thus delud all Christians to the end of the world may Church-men connive approve teach and applaud the Civil Magistrate in punishing whosoever they suppose to be Hereticks by imprisonment or death and not as innocently as Christianly bee executioners themselves Perhaps they will say they have no authority nor call to become executioners to banish imprison or put to death and yet they have as good a call as to approve it in the Civil Magistrate but this is not the poynt wee stand upon What if a Towne or Principality were giuen unto a company of Presbyterian Clergie-men I cannot think they will refuse it would they in such a case imprison banish or cause Hereticks to die in this their Principality If they say as the Pope in the same case as Pilate when he crucifide Iesus and Bishop B●nner whilst he made so many Protestane Martyrs they may not wash their hands in the blood of Hereticks I reply neither in the blood of Civil delinquents by the selfe same principle of theirs If they referre such judicature and executing of Spirituall or Civil Offenders unto Laymen to be their deputies within this Principality of theirs I answere that this is but a Popish eua●ion and such blood being shed by their authority or approbation must be accounted for by them as if they themselves had sat upon the Bench passed sentence and beene executioners If Hereticks were punishable by death as murderers and Traitors I know no cause but that Clergie-men if neede were might as actually assist at execution of the one as of the other But if any man should expect my opinion of what these Presbyterian Clergie-men may doe upon the proffer of such a Principality I confesse the refusall thereof might seem a verie great degree of Evangelicall perfection and the excessive care and travel which is required to govern it though by a substitute are altogether inconsistent with the ministerie of the Gospel but to interpret the passing sentence and execution of death by such Deputies or their Officers to be so intirely the peculiar acts of such Deputies only as that the said Presbyterian Clergie-men from whom the jurisdiction is derived had not even as great a share therein as if they had beene present upon the bench is a meere Popish invention and delusion Our Saviour and his Apostles did neither tell the Magistrates that then were that it concerned them so much more to become Christians that they might compel their Subjects to be so too nor yet gave the Christians instructions or left upon record any such order or warrant that when ever the Magistrate did become Christian they might constraine the people to Christianity c. But in the same Pag. 74. you graunt these Spiritual Delinquents must be first sufficiently convinced alleadging that after a sufficient conviction it is morally and should be supposed that they know the truth or should know it or if they know it not that nothing can have bl●dered them but their owne pertinaciousnes which cannot excuse but rather aggravates their ●in But what I pray or how much do you call sufficiently convinced How can any one do otherwise than yeeld unto whatsoever you have convinced him of

How can you bee infallibly assured that a man ●s sufficiently convinced if he himselfe denyes it How know you which is Gods ●●oure for convincing of a man May not you likewise possibly interpret a dulnesse of apprehension in him or your owne want of truly and well informing him to bee his obstinate wilfull rejecting of the truth Are there not above 24 degrees of capacity and understanding between some men and shall such whom God and Nature have made more dull or lesse ingenious in judging of Presbyterian Discipline or Doctrin be condemned to banishment or death for these defects of Nature beleeving or discoursing about matters of beleefe or but opinion only Such you say the Civil Magistrate may compel to subscribe against their conscience or to bee gon But who gives the Civil Magistrate this authoritie Or how comes hee to know or understand them to bee Hereticks The Presbyterian Clergie-men I hope will be no more informers than executioners I am sure in most of such as are aleadged to bee Christian Countryes the Informer is counted more infamous than the Executioner because the one does all the busines for the most part in darknesse and under board whereas the other exposes his actions to the publick view But why may not Church Officers themselves as well hang or cut the throat of such a Heretick whom they have prepared and designed for the shambles of the Civil Magistrats execution by their excommunicating of him If the putting him to death were just they need not use any Machivillian Stratagem to prevent the peoples censuring them of cruelty or make so nice to ●owle their fingers with the blood of such as they put to death deservedly The Levites when Moses required them everie man to kill his Son his brother companion and his neighbour were not so scrupulous Exod. 32 27. 28. 29. And why may not the Civil Magistrate as well excommunicate as banish or otherwise punish any Hereticks Doe not all punishments inflicted for spiritual offences equally become spiritual Or is it not necessary they should be spiritual to work a Spiritual effect doubtlesse they bee or ought to be so and if hanging of a spiritual offender bee as lawfull as excommunicating of him surely both the Civil Magistrate and the Presbyterian Church Officers may execute him both alike Please then to satisfie me concerning these three Queries 1. By what authoritie does the Civil Magistrate punish a Heretick 2. What is it he punishes him for 3. And Thirdly Vpon what ●●●all and inditement If the few perticular warrants upon special occasion for punishing some certain Idolaters expressy poynted it in the old Testament obliged all Magistrates then and ever since to do the like you must condemne the greatest part of Godly Magistrates for omitting it and if you wil ha●● extraordinary 〈◊〉 to ●●gage th●● there unto upon all ordinary 〈◊〉 you must in●er that 〈◊〉 the People of the land who have entered into the la●e solemne League and Covenant are bound with one accord to assault cut the throats of al the Papists they should meet withall without any farther proces or impeachment just as the Israelites served Mattan B●als priest after that jehoida had made a covenant between the Lord the King and the people 2. King 11. 17. 18. Secondly For what cause does the Civil Magistrate punish this Church Offender were it for Civil delinquency then is he no longer a meer heretick a bare Church offender the Church would have no jurisdiction to punish him for such Civil delinquency But that you may see it was for spiritual for Church offences for which he is unjustly banished imprisoned or put to dea●h it wil appear upon the third Query or Inquiry that the Civil Magist●ate proceeds against him after an implicit manner by passing sentence by putting him to death upon the Church triall and inditement only or else arraignes him the second time for the selfe same offence a double injurie and injustice which besides being spiritual the Civil Magistrate has no cognizance is no competent Judge thereof nor can take upon himselfe any such authority without confounding the Ecclesiasticall Judicature with the Civil But I must trouble your patience a little longer with an other touch upon this string this whipcord which you graunt the Magistrate to scourge your Brethren withal in confidence your selves for this benevolence shall scape scotfree and passe for white boyes whatever offences you commit this no doubt wil expiate them all and make attonement for them though they be never so many You say the Civil Magistrate may compel men of different opinions to subscribe or to be gon nay you say the Civil Magistrate may command and compel a corrupted Church and negligent Church Officers into a Reformation and that even when they are Reformed hee may command and compel them by his Civil power to give satisfaction and reverse such Ecclesiasticall censures and judgements as the Civil Magistrate shall apprehend to bee oppressing unto any man or contrary to the Civil lawes Tell me is this power which you present the Civil Magistrate withall in spirituall matters a lesser lesse spiritual or efficacious power than what you reserve as peculiar to the Church If it bee lesse the Civil Magistrate surely is much beholding to you that you are so bountifull to him of such scrapps that you will set him ● work as the Egyptian Task-master did the Israelites Exo. 5. 18. with such leavings and shredds of discipline and yet expect hee should doe that for you which all your broad sides and batteries of Decrees Ordnance and Canons of Excommunication c. could not effect And why I pray may not the Church her selfe make use of small shot as well as greater But if you meane really side publica and this power which you attribute to the Civil Magistrate concerning Spiritual Offenders and offences be greater more Spiritual and efficacious to win and gain men unto true piety and Godlinesse by fining banishing imprisonment or death Can you not give him in the vantage Can you not let him have the lesser of Excommunication and other Ceremonious in comparison of Civil Coercive Censures Briefly then if this power which you give the Civil Magistrate about the Church bee a toy or trifle bate it him and let not so many thousand Ind●pendents your Brethren be longer scandalized thereat But if you insist still to make it of so great concernment and necessity teaching the people that the Civil Magistrate must likewise bee a terrour to spiritual offenders assure your selfe that both Magistrate and People will likely ere long see the injustice and absurdity of having two Magistrates to punish one offender for one fault which also may disagree may possibly contradict each other in their sentences resolving through the corrupted principles which you instil that the Civil Magistrate has power and understanding sufficient to discipline and govern both Church and State But perhaps you 'l say there is an Act

and Gomorrah than for many people amongst whom Christ wrought most of his miracles Know you not that many who live and dye Papists because through ignorance as Paul whilst he persecuted the Saints 1. Tim. 1. 13. Whom God therefore had mercie on shall rise up in judgement against all Protestants which know Gods will and do it not Doe you not take it to be mad doctrin of Pauls when he presupposes there may bee a case when the best Christians I say not Presbyterians may nay ought never more eat flesh drinke wine nor anything where at a brother stumbleth is offended or made weake And yet if you beleeve Rom. 14. 21. 1. Cor 8. 13. you may finde it Evangelical a little othergates than such stuffe as you baptize with Orthodox and then think it pleaseth the Holy Ghost because such men such dust and ashes as your selfe know no better that all the world will they nill they must fall down and worship it If Independents say they have no faith in communicating with your mixt multitude and joyning in an English Directory alias a Scotch Common-prayer-booke and you notwithstanding by imprisoning or discountenancing compel them to it doe you not make them commit Idolatrie Are they not damned because they doubt thereof Rom. 14. 23. Can the Priests in Frame the Divels in Hell or Presbyterians anywhere do worse by Protestants But you promise largely you say the Presbyterians will not compel the Independents to act against their consciences only you will not suffer them to seduce other mens consciences What an Agrippa-like halfe Christian paradox is this Doth the truth constraine you to acknowledge that compelling Independents to joyn with you in your mixt communions and stinted worship against their consciences would amount unto Idolatrie and may they not instruct their Famelies friends brethren and all such who gaspe after a word of knowledge or but desire to be instructed by them how to decline Idolatrie and worship God in sincerity and truth Did not Nature engrave it in the hearts of al men that it is better to obey God than man Did not the Apostles for our clearer understanding resolve it when 't was made a question Act 4. 19. Are not all such condemned for unproffitable servants who put a candle under a bushel For lapping up their tallent in a napkin For not strengthning others after they themselves are converted And though you so often upbraid this as a licentious course and way to let in all Heresie and impiety have patience if I tell you the Papists say the verie same for excluding Protestantisme out of their Dominions and neither you as profownd an AS as you take your selfe to be nor all the Presbyterians in the world can say one tittle more than Papists doe in this behalfe now wherein your Divinity your Disciplin your Righteousnes exceeds not that of Papists take it not so hainously that Independents who have not so learned Christ may not dare not joyne with you yet if upon a second consideration hereof you shall still remain head-strong banishing all farther truth left some Heresies should creepe in therewith good now do but discover to us a possibility how after the Presbyterian rule which according to AS sayes the Civil Magistrate has power not to admit the true Church or to turne it out though it had beene admitted and established by low The Roman Church can ever be reformed or the Iewes converted to the Gospel Concerning the Churches of New-England you say their Independency is worse than Heresie you strengthen your selfe in denying them a toleration in Old-England because they will not graunt you one in New-England and yet you bid them begon thither and live in peace but tell me a little how can they be secure in New-England from the omnipotency of the Presbyterian Disciplin which is as covetuous and ambitious as Rome it selfe which claim 's no lesse than all the World ought you not to endeavour their conversion equal to your brethrens of Old-England and that as well unto your Disciplin as to your doctrin Are their soules not worth saving Or their Country not worth living in the soile is thought no whit inferiour if not better then the best in Old-England though there be not so good plundering for money and rich moveables But why should not the soules of your New-English Brethren bee as deare unto you as those of Old-England Or though your Brethren of New-England should know the way to heaven of themselves How can you with a quiet mind endure they should get thither without your Passe your Mittimus your Peter-pence Or why may not the Old-English be thought as charitably on or find the like favour from your over dilligent Presbyerie But put the case you did really desire the New-English their conversion you approve of them in suffering no opinions to be published but their owne If this Disciplin be strictly observed How can they possibly attaine to better light and knowledge What course will you take for their informing for convincing them of this worse than Heretical tenet as you call it if to their's and your Church pollicy they should lykewise attaine as sharp a Civil sword as yours Or put case that even your own most excellent Doctorship were not so sound or orthodox as self conceited which many have strong presumptions for who are thought better able to judge thereof than AS himselfe will you put your selfe in an impossibilitie of ever being reformed except tumultuously or illegally both waies compulsively Was ever any AS so dull so stupid so voide both of Civil and Christian policie But what shall I say unto you since according to your Theologie nothing is so likely to prevaile with you as cudgelling Page 172. You say that refusing to tolerate the Independents will helpe to confirme the Churches and people in the truth of Presbyterian Diciplin and Doctrin that many men are led by authority and take many things upon the trust of great men c. Phy AS Are you not asham'd thus to uncover the nakednesse of your Churches To tell us and them that the Presbyterian world takes up a religion and government upon trust And if the Venerable and learned Assemblie as you stile them should not graunt a toleration of any thing but Poprie or Turcisme would not your good people whom you speake of be as easily confirmed of the truth thereof Surely they will unlesse they bee wiser than their Anchesters which will not be beleeved Page 179. You ask What power hath either King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdome new religions or a toleration of all Sects And say the Parliament assumes no such power to it selfe If this bee true How can it settle not to say intrude as AS does improperly and unmannerly the Scotch Presbyterian disciplin in England more than the Independency of New-English Churches For since the Churches of Scotland and New England for Doctrin agree in fundamentals differ onely in Disciplin