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A77735 A brief ansvver to obiections of all sorts, against Presbyterian chvrches and their government. Bakewell, Thomas, b. 1618 or 19. 1650 (1650) Wing B528; Thomason E620_11; ESTC R206382 29,802 35

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the Church Mat. 18.15 16 17. that is the Eldership for saith the Lord to Moses speak unto all the congregation then he called the Elders and spake unto them Exodus 12.21 which are called the assembly of Elders distinct from the congregation Psa 107.32 or the estate of the Elders Acts 22.5 neither could any two or three Saints be this Church for then the offendor and the offended brethren were this Church but that they were not nor one or two more for it was the third gradation neither was it the whole Congregation here ment for then if any two or three doe but agree about binding loosing it should be ratified in heaven although all the rest were against it But lastly it is ment her Officers who have the keyes of binding and loosing committed unto them although but two Elders and a Pastor in that Eldership yet if but two of them agree being the major part of that Eldership it shall be ratified in Heaven Mat. 18.17.18.19 being the highest appeale in a particular Church In the next place I wil shew by Scripture the Appeals of Churches the lesser to the greater for publique offences not one Congregation to another nor one Classes to another nor one Provinciall Synod to another for so they are of equall authority but a Congregation to a Classes made up of many represented or a Classes to a Provinciall Synod being greater than that and from thence to the Nationall Synod being the greatest power in the Nationall Church I begin with the first and that is proved by all those particular Churches in Syria and Cilicia appealing to the Church at Antioch being a Presbyteriall Church having Apostles and extraordinary Prophets and many Ministers in it who came as being all concern'd in the busines when seducers would have broched errors amongst them Acts 15.12 and there they had great disputation with those seducers even the Apostles themselves who might have determined the businesse there but that it was to be a president for all Christian Churches therefore that Classicall Assembly at last determined to send to the Synod at Ierusalem about that question ver 2. and being brought on their way by the Church that is by some representing the Church ver 3. and they were received of the Church not as if all those many thousands of Beleevers came forth to receive them but some of the Synod representing them all were sent to receive them ver 4. and the Apostles and Elders came together not casu ally but on purpose to consider of that matter ver 6. those Churches having referr'd themselves to their finall determination they did authoratively passe sentence and made decrees to be kept for all those Churches who did thus appeal first to that Church at Antioch and from thence to Ierusalem and they being fully satisfied for having read the Epistle they rejoyced for the consolation ver 30.31 and so all these Churches of Syria and Cilicia were established in the faith ver 41. Chap. 16.4.5 But you give Classes and Synods absolute power to impose there conclusions and determinations on particular Churches without any refusing Ans It is true that all particular Churches ought to refer themselves and that none should be permitted to refuse yet we do not give Classes and Synods absolute power over them so as to impose on them what they please nor at all to make laws for the Church as the Parlament for the State but only to gather out of Scripture a model of that discipline which Christ hath already made and cause that and no other to be put in execution But Classes and Synods hinder obedience to that command of Christ which is to try all things 1 Thes 5.21 and make the Saints liberty lesse than it was in the Apostles dayes for then they might trie their Doctrines Acts 17 11. yea they would be Lords over Gods heritage which they ought not 1 Pet. 5.3 and which no Counsell or Synod since the Apostles dayes ever had nor claimed neither did Christ ever give it to them Ans Classes and Synods do but shew the absolute power of Christ and impose that only as necessary without refusing they doe but gather up the severall Lawes of Christ already made into a moddell to be observed which is not to be Lords over Gods heritage nor challenge to themselves a power which Christ never gave them but rather to dispence the mind of Christ to the People But Classes and Synods makes a Pastor to undertake more Churches than his own and makes them lame that they cannot do their Office themselves and hinders matters from being tryed where they were committed which doth occasion Tyranny and hinder Church-liberty and put men into many intollerable temotations as to wrest the Scripture to a contrary sence and to stop the way of knowledg by stinting mens gifts and abilities and making men to build their observation and practice of divine Laws upon humane principles and policies that will gender to bondage therefore Christ will root it up as the Prelacy Ans Classes and Synods do not undertake more Churches than their own unlesse in case of appeal for their help when as their own Eldership cannot do it neither doth lending a hand make their own Officers lame but rather support them when they were ready to sink under their burden but if they can bear it themselves Classes and Synods will not hinder them but rather encourage them to doe it still which will free them of a great deale of trouble neither are matters to be tryed where the offence was committed but in places of Iudicatory both in Church and State And to speak of Tyranny all Sects are more guilty than Presbyterians for their parties are their Iudges without suffering any appeales from them neither do Classes and Synods force men to wrest Scripture but rather take care to put out such mechanick fellowes who cannot avoid it for want of Learning And it is rather a temptation to error and blasphemy when suffered than if such were punished for it Neither doth Classes and Synods hinder mens gifts and abilities but only rectifies them where to be imployed for more profit and that is in their own families by them neglected while they presume without warrant from the word of God to meddle with other mens businesse Also they further a learned Ministry which may teach the people knowledg and only labour to prevent the blind from leading the blind into the ditch neither is the discipline of Christ to be called humane principles and policies nor is it bondage to be kept from error and blasphemy but rather perfect freedome neither will the Lord root out Presbytery as the Prelacy because some beleeve it but rather their faith shall fail being built on the Churches ruine against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail Mat. 16.18 But may not Ministers alone sometimes meet together to advise each other for the Churches good without Classes and Synods Ans Yes but
not with the like authority of Classes and Synods yet I say they may meet to idvise each other and to prepare things for Classes and Synod to try the gifts and abilities of those that are to be ordained and also ordain them Acts 1● 23 1 Tim. 4.14 and thus they met in Solomons porch Acts 5.11 12. And so did all the Ministers in Corinth meet together for the Churches good 1 Cor. 14.23 But those in Corinth were not all Ministers for the Text saith the whole church met together Ans There was none but Ministers for they all spake with tongues 1 Cor. 14.23 but saith Paul do all speak with tongues 1 Cor. 12.39 2. They are called prophets ver 29. But are all Prophets 1 Cor. 12.29 3. They did not come together to preach but to dispute for they might all speak what was revealed to them ver 30 31. but all may not speak in the church let your women keep silence in the church it is not permitted for them to speak nor men that are ignorant ver 32 33 36. 4. This command came onely to Prophets and to them assigned to spirituall imployment ver 37. therefore there was none but Ministers at that meeting in Corinth much like our Assembly of Ministers at Westminster and sometimes at Sion Colledge yet I say not with the like power of Classes and Synods to make decrees for the church because it is not fully represented for lack of ruling Elders But may none but Ministers meet to ordain Ministers Ans Although it ought to be done in the congregatiou yet none may actually do it but ministers first because the Keyes of the church were given to them Mat. 16.19 Iohn 20.23 2. None durst ever take upon them to ordain others that were not Ministers themselves 3. when the people chose Deacons they brought them to the Apostles to be ordained Acts 6.3 4. Ministers are directed how to do it that is not by partiality preferring one before another nor rashly to lay hands suddenly on them 1 Tim. 5 11 12. 5. Other men may not do it because they cannot try their gifts which must first be proved 1 Tim. 3.10.6 A Minister must not be confined to one place he may use his office in any congregation therefore universall Officers must ordain them into the Ministery who are not confined as Elders and Deacons but such as may preach in any church 8. None but Ministers may remove Ministers to other Churches the Lord said to the Prophets at Antioch separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have appointed them and they laid their hands on them and sent them away Acts 13.1 2 3. therefore none but Ministers may ordain Ministers But the house of Stephanus addicted themselves to the Ministry 1 Cor. 16.15 Ans It is true they addicted themselvs to it that is they had a good affection to it and it may be they used means to attain learning to make themselves fit for it but yet it will not follow that they did ordain or put themselves into the Ministry But the Waldenses being cast upon an Island and not knowing what to do for Ministers made some of themselves Ministers Answer All stories are not true neither are all examples to be followed especially when they erre from the rule which saith how can he preach except he be sent Rom. 10.14 and again let him be proved 1 Tim. 3.10 and the Apostles ordained Elders in every Church and after them they were ordained by other Ministers Titus 1.5 and then by the Presbytery assoon as it was erected 1 Tim. 4.14 But if the Waldenses had not done so they had been without Ministers Answ It had been better to have been without then to have used unlawfulmeans to obtain them for he that doth evil that good may come his damnation is just Rom. 3.9 2. They should have done as others did in the like case when the Iewes returned out of Babylon and had no Ministers they did not make Ministers of other men but sent to Iddo and his brethren desiring them to send them Ministers for the house of God and the Text saith they brought us a man of understanding of the sonnes of Levi Ezra 8.15 91.17 18. 3. They need not say they should have been without Ministers for the gates of hell shall not prevail to destroy either the Church or Ministry neither shall they be unwilling to supply any place that truly desires the Christian faith for when the Apostles heard that Samaria had received the word of God they sent them Peter and Iohn Acts 8.14 and God that hath wrought these good desires will perfect them to the day of Iesus Christ yea God will supply all their need according to his riches in Iesus Christ Phil. 4.19 Lastly this pretence can be no better justified than that act of Vzza who might have said as well as they if the Ark should fall and break in pieces what shall we do for the Ark but God smote him to death for his errour 2 Sam 6.67 But if our minister be dead or removed may we not chuse another out of the congregation as well as they chose Deacons Acts 6. Ans No for the Deacons office is confined in that congregation so that if he remove he cannot take his office with him but he that is placed in the Ministry takes his office with him and he may exercise that office in another congregation without any more ordination 2. I grant that a member of the universall Church and not a Turk or a Iew who are not members of it ought to be chosen into the Ministry 3. The Scripture doth not say take a man of your particular congregation and make your watchman but take a man of your coasts and make your watchman Ezekiel 33.2 and we chuse our Minister from the Vniversity out of our Nationall church although not out of our particular congregation neither dare we to confine our choice into a narrower compasse than God hath allotted us But there is Superstition used at your Ordination which is by laying on of hands which ceased with the Apostles Ans Where was a two-fold laying on of hands in the Apostles dayes one of them belonged to the Apostles alone at which sign the holy Ghost was given that is the gift of Tongues and Miracles Paul laid on his hands and they spake with tongues and prophesied Act. 19.6 and he sayd to Timothy stir up that gift that was given thee by laying on of my hands 2 Tim. 1.6 Simon faw that on whomsoever the Apostles laid their hands the Holy Ghost was given he said give me this power also Acts 8.18.19 now this power ceased with the Apostles but then there was another laying on of hands when any was fitted before for the Ministery whether it was mediately or immediately it matter'd not they ordained such that is they approved of their fitnesse by that signe of laying on of their hands see both these in one