be governed The truth is In all this passage appeareth much sarcasticall bitternes unworthy of the learning gravity and holy function of the Answerer Yet I suppose the Complainants would be ready if they were called to answer soberly that they desire no other Church government unto which they would willingly be subject then that which Christ hath appoynted the Church to be under What that is if they know not he aught to teach them If they know it and desire it he aught to lead them out and to goe before them as a faythfull shepheard that the sheep may follow him as he followeth Christ not to praejudice them against any good way by a scoffing proposall of mens differences in judgment about some particular tract or turning in the way to the great scandall and offence of many and the dishonour of the Gospel and the hindrance of Reformation by his joyning with the enimyes thereof in an old cavill which hath turned many out of the way and caused some to returne back to a mere neutrality in religion till the professours of it agree among themselves about the path wherein they will walke Whereas he taketh occasion againe without provocation to mention Mr. Iacob as an enimy to Classes and Synods that I might speake a word in the cause of the dumbe and of the dead I have examined what he hath written concerning this point more upon this occasion then formerly I had done and it may be Treat of Ch. Government Chap. 1. pag. 13. Chap. 7. 88. 89. 90 Confess Art 5. more then else I should have done and doe find that he professeth his agrement that I may use his owne words even to an hayre with Calvin and Beza touching the substance of this matter and that he acknowledgeth with them both the parishionall and Diocesan presbyteryes yea the provinciall and larger too if occasion serve How he explaineth himselfe herein the diligent Reader will easily observe in other passages of the same booke And else where he acknowledgeth that there may be and on occasion there ought to be on earth a consociation of Congregations and Churches and namely by way of Synods but not a subordination or surely not a subjection of the Congregations under any higher spirituall authority absolute save only Christs and the holy Scriptures Whereby it appeareth that the single uncompounded policy which Mr I required is not contrary to the government of these reformed Churches by Classes and Synods rightly ordered Ch. Government Chap. 7. p. 89. nay rather he so farr approveth of it that he sayth it is Apostolicall for many ordinary Congregations consociating together in their spirituall government to have a Diocesan or larger Synod or presbytery over them for their better direction and he addeth such the reformed Churches at this day doe injoy But if he thinck by mentioning the name of Mr. Iacob to leave the Complainants under the suspicion of adhaering to some sect or of depending upon the authority of man not upon the word of Christ for their rule about Church matters he will be found to be injurious not to them alone but to Christ also Mat. 18.17 1. Cor 5. Coll. 2.5 and 4.17 Acts 20.17.28 Rev. 2 3 1. Tim. 3.15 Cha. 5.21 Chap. 6.13 to 17. and to the truth First To Christ seing they acknowledge all that power to be due and thereunto they are willing to submit which by the word is warranted to be that whereby Churches should be governed according to the mind of Christ which agreeth with the patterne which Christ left to his disciples and which the Apostles exactly followed in planting those primitive Churches of Corinth Colosse Ephesus the 7 golden Candlesticks in Asia among whom Christ walked c. and which Paul so streightly charged Timothy to observe in all Church affayres which is no other then the power committed by Christ to particuler Churches as his delegates for the right ordering of themselves in their Church government and in all holy administrations and ordinances according to his command and direction in the Scripture without dependance upon any Classes or Synods or whatsoever humane spirituall power for license or authority to be received from them for their so doing And as they thus acknowledge all that power under which the Church is subjected by warrant of the word to be due so they professe all that power under which the Church is subjected to be undue which the word doeth not warrant and which taketh away from particular Churches that power which by Christ his ordinance is due to them which what is it but to remove the ancient bounds Prov. 22.28 Gal. 5.1.3 Ioh. 9. to thrust the Churches from the libertyes wherein they are commanded to stand fast and to affect an undue praeheminence in the Church Secondly To the truth whilest it is presented to the view of all men under the shew of some singular opinion or errour rather of a particular man or as a forelorne thing deserted of all her witnesses excepting Mr. Iacob whereas so much as the Complainants seeme to require as appeareth in their referring themselves to the warrant of the word hath bene acknowledged by the faythfull witnesses in all ages Heb. 12.1 with which cloud of witnesses we are compassed about as the Israelites were with that pillar of a cloud wherein the Lord went before them by day Exod. 13.21 to lead them in the way Such were the Apostles in their time and those worthyes as Cyprian and those of whom Eusebius taketh notice Cypr. lib. 3 Epist 14. Euseb li. 3 et 4. et 5. in many places and in some succeeding instances before the mistery wraught to its full hight The same thing may appeare to those who are conversant in the wrightings of the Centuriators To these I may add those who have handled the controversyes concerning the necessity and authority of Councills amongst whom I will instance in Dr. Whittaker who Whitt de Concil quest 5. Arg. speaking of the fullnes of that delegated power which Christ hath given to the Church not to the Pope which he applyeth to the Keyes in binding and loosing shutting and opening retayning and remitting sinnes sayth that this power belongeth primarily principally and essentially to the Church but to the severall Bishops onely accidentally secundarily and lâ—sse principally and explaineth himselfe by a rule in philosophy which is that when any power is in two in one necessarily essentially in another contingently and accidentally it is more principally in him in whom it is necessarily and essentially then in him whose it is onely contingently and accidentally As the heate is more principally in the fire then in the water because it is in the water by reason of the fire So sayth he seing this jurisdiction and fullnes of power is given to the Church necessarily and primarily but to the Pope onely secundarily and by the Church it is manifest that it is more
power in her owne matters which the law of God and the Synodall canons of these lands acknowledge to be due to her in things of this nature as it hath bene formerly declared And therefore he need not scoffingly aske of these Complainants for their warrant or evidence that he destroyeth the power of the Church Those spoken of in Sect. 27. have given it Ioh. 12.7 if he will give the dayes leave to speake and the multitude of yeares to teach wisdom 2. His second answer accuseth them of folly and that order in the Church which they plead for according to the ordinance of Christ as a bondage servitude burthen oppression c. Reply They complaine that when he can not have his will unjustly satisfyed in the Consistory he violently without their consent bringeth matters thence into the Classis Jf this complaint be just it is not slight His carriage in late differences maketh it suspicious that the roote of the matter is in him For let the ground of these troubles be considered and it will be found that the thing for which he contendeth is not necessary either as a meane for Gods glory and the Churches aedification or as commanded of God nor is it injoyned in any Canon of these Belgick Nationall Synods nor is it expresly and particularly required by any Classis of any Dutch Ministers in their admission So that it is not difficult to determine from what distempered principle these disordered motions have arisen and who is to be accounted burthened in this respect As for the folly which he chargeth upon the Complainants that pretending to stand for the liberty of the Church they seeke to bring themselves into bondage the question is whether is the way of liberty or bondage to the Church That which Christ hath appointed or that which men without Christs warrant have devised If the way of Christ is the way of liberty the question will be which is the way of Christ whether that particular Churches have power within themselves to chuse a fit Pastor and to crave the helpe of one well knowne unto them in time of the Churches necessity to see that Baptisme be decently orderly administred or that they so depend upon Classes for their leave permission herein as to be hindred by them from doing any of these at their pleasure If the first is the way of Christ let the Answerer beware that he be not found a false witnesse against Christ and his wayes in making them wayes of folly and servitude c. If the latter be the way of Christ let him shew it and not say it onely I say shew and prove it by Scripture for the satisfaction of the people that depend upon his ministry And till he can doe that let him forbeare such expressions 3. His third answer is by asking what men should doe when they thinck the Elders to be in an errour Reply If a man thinck them to be in an errour what should he doe else but shew them their errour by the word and if the case prove difficult crave with common consent the helpe of other mens or Churches light as occasion shall require to make the matter cleare But the rule warranteth not any man upon his mere thought that they erre to carry the matters quite out of their hands power without their consent or declaring the aequity of his so doing to the satisfaction of the Church For upon such a pretence if the Classis be partially addicted to the Minister all Church proceedings will be hindred And hence it was indeed as Dr. Bilson observed that the frequency of Synods did diminish the authority necessity of the Consistorian meeting of Elders For after that the meeting of Synods twise a yeare was ordayned in the Councill of Nice and Calcedon the Elders began to be in lesse use and account the Synods as higher judges taking upon them the examination and decision of those things which were wont to be agitated in the presbyteryes What he sayth of the Hierarchicall Synods in that place will be found true also of the Classis by this course and much more seing they meete sixe times a yeare 4. His fourth answer needeth no other reply then what is made already to the like if not the same pretence in his fifth answer examined in the 23. Section whereunto J referr the Reader 5. His fifth answer is already replyed upon in examination of the 27. Section 6. His sixth answer also is replyed upon before in severall passages and the vanity of it discovered Sect 31. examined concerning his subjecting the Church under the Classis without their consent THe authority and power which they complaine that theyr Church is subjected under is still by the Complainants declared to be undue by another instance in that it is such as is not competent to any men that are not subject to errour and hereunto they add another aggravation viz that it is done without the Churches consent Lib. 3. Cap. 26. p. 370. M. Parker in his learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall policy sheweth at large that Churches are no furher under the authority of Synods then they have subjected themselves by their owne consent And as for binding men to rest in their determinations as if they were infallible both Dr. Whittaker and Iunius in shewing that Councills are subject to errour have given sufficient light for discovery of the evill of that practise But let us see what he answereth to this complaint in seaven particulars 1. His first is after his usuall manner It is untrue but when the Church is hindred from making an order for the decent orderly administration of holy things by their owne power under pretence of his taking advise of the Classis as it was in the question about Baptisme when J was required that for a coÌ„dition whereupon I was to be admitted or refused to rest in a wrightâ—ng of five Ministers no rule being shewne me by them from the Scripture to warrant their so doing these things shewed it to be true 2. His second answer is that the same thing may be alleadged against any Pastor in the reformed Churches But this is an injury to all reformed Churches and Pastors unlesse he can prove that in the fame particulars they subject their Churches to the same undue power of Classes and in the same manner as he hath done Which he never will be able to doe It is true that Classicall assemblies or such like are a speciall bond of union and sinew of government in them all but to argue from the lawfull use to justify the unlawfull abuse of them is unsound reasoning 3. His third answer is to their charging him with doing this under a pretence of asking and taking advise of the Classis Which he denyeth and sayth that he professeth openly the authority and power of Synods and Classis to be lawfull and necessary as well as their counsail and advise Neither doe they
deny the authority and due power of Synods and Classes to be lawfull and necessary but they complaine of an undue power and authority ascribed to Classes by the Answerer and they declare by instances what that power is which they account undue Now unlesse he can prove that power to be due which they have affirmed to be undue he hath not answered their complaint which is that under pretence of asking and taking their advise he subjecteth the Church under that power which they affirme to be undue That he doeth so subject them hath bene shewed and that he pretendeth onely to aske and take their advise his owne expressions both by speeches at other times and in diverse passages of this booke declare sufficiently 4. His fourth answer is to their saying that the Church never acknowledged any such power to be due whereunto he answereth 1. by shewing the agreement betweene the ancient English inhabitants there the Magistrates and the Dutch Ministers which was to have such an English Church as should accord with the Dutch in the same order of Discipline and Government 2. By declaring that since his first comming but he sayth not how long after his first comming he was admitted to be a member of the Classis 3. By shewing the manner of their receiving members viz by profession of the same fayth with them and by solemne promise covenanting to submit unto the discipline of this Church according to the rule of Christ But what is in all these passages to prove their submission to any undue power and authority of the Classis Nay when they professe to submit unto the discipline of this Church according to the rule of Christ doe they not therein implicitly professe against submission to any undue power of the Classis And as litle doeth the practise of any members since in resorting to the Classis upon occasion of asking their judgment in matters controverted among them establish any undue power of theirs And to what end should those that joyne with his Church leaving their separation come with a protest against the undue power of the Classis when they knew not of their subjection thereunto no more being required of them in their Covenant at their first admission then submission to the discipline of this Church according to the role of Christ As for that which he addeth of their chusing rather to continue as they were then to be of the English Synod this doeth not testifye their acknowledgment of their subjectiō to any undue power of the Classis But how were they under the Classis when not long before that the Answerer himselfe as Mr. Forbes assured me laboured to set up an English Classis or Synod which not succeeding in his indeavour at that time he never after attempted to procure nor would joyne with being after set up at the procurements of others As for St Offw report of Geneva we have already shewne some difference betweene the association of Churches in Geneva and the Classes in these Countryes But be that as it may it makes nothing for the warranting of any undue power of the Classis 5. His fifth answer is to that passage in the complaint when they say that the power which they complaine of is such as the Scriptures doe not in any place give to such a company of Ministers The fault that he findeth herewith is that they doe not alleadge any one place of Scripture to condemne the same As though Negative Arguments from Scripture were not sufficient proofes of the unlawfullnes of a thing in matter of Religion By the helpe of St. Offw booke he accommodateth the 15. of the Acts. concerning the Church at Antioch seeking helpe of the Church at Ierusalem in a difficult question to the present question But what is that to the undue power of the Classis whereof they complaine In his next answer it may be he will give me occasion of shewing that that very place of Scripture maketh strongly against that undue power which he ascribeth to the Classis in the particulars complained of and such like 6. His sixth answer is to that part of the Complaint when they say that the undue authority whereof they complaine is such as doeth not become any except the Apostles that could not erre to have This he sayth is false and absurd and upon this occasion he reproveth me for a like speech in my letter to the Classis touching my consent required to the wrighting of the five Ministers namely that such a subjection is greater then may be yeelded unto any Councill whether of Classes or Synods c. that thereby the wrightings and decrees of men are made infallible and aequall with the word of God which is intolerable Reply Jt is true that I so wrote and that which I wrote herein is true Let us now see what he answereth He sayth what wise man is there that sees not the strange folly and vanity of such assertions as these Iunius was a wise man and yet he saw no folly nor vanity nor strangenes in a like assertion and so was Bogerman who relates it roundly and without haesitancy from him in these words Bogerm Annot in Hug Grot ex Iuni p. 225. Servus mandatum Domini sui referens ad conservum suum obligat illius conscientiam instrumentali ministerio suo at cognitioni suae aut foro suo minimè obligat Hoc nunquam Dominus quisquam daturus nunquam fervus fidelis assumpturus i. e. A servant relating the command of his Lord to his fellow servant bindeth his conscience by his instrumentall ministry that is as I conceive it so farr as he reporteth the Lords mind and command but doeth not bind him to his owne outward jurisdiction This no Lord will ever give nor any faithfull servant assume But did not they assume this and more when they would bind me to rest in that wrighting and to be accountable to them for my conformity to it not having convinced or instructed me that it was the will of our Lord that I should doe so Also Dr. Whittaker was a wise man Whitt de Concil Quest 3. Chap. 2. yet he saw no folly nor vanity nor strangenes in a like assertion For speaking of the definitions of Councills concerning matters to be beleived or to be done he sheweth that to define a thing signifieth either 1. to declare what we are to beleive doe upō the authority of the Scripture because the Scripture teacheth that it aught to be so beleived and done and that therefore they that beleive or doe otherwise are in an errour 2. or else it signifyeth to appoynt and prescribe by their owne authority what we are to beleive or doe so as men must rest in it whatsoever reason they have against it and may not beleive or doe otherwise The first he alloweth and so did I and desired nothing else but to understand some rule from the word warranting me to doe that whereunto they in
Attersol not for promiscuous baptising 161. 27 Balmford Mr. Balmford defended 93. 34 Baptising Examples against promiscuous Baptising 32. 1 Arguments for promiscuous Baptising answered 118. 31 Scriptures for promiscuous Baptising answered 121. 31 The question cōcerning promiscuous Baptising stated 132. 5 Things premised about promiscuous Baptising 132. 22 Fower grounds against promiscuous Baptising 133. 25 The opinion of learned Writers concerning promiscuous Baptising 134. 1 The ends and uses of baptisme against promiscuous Baptising 140. 21. Promiscuous Baptising offensive 143. 19. Promiscuous Baptising amoung the Reformed a building of things destroyed 145. 21 Promiscuous Baptising against Godly custome 153. 9 Promiscuous Baptising not maintayned by them that seeme to favour it 156. 23 Pretences for promiscuous Baptising answered 163. 8 Promiscuous Baptising not an order of the Dutch Churches but a disorder crept in 175. 15 Confessions and Cannons of the Dutch Churches against promiscuous Baptising 175. 22 Custome about baptising such as that it may justly be called promiscuous Baptising 300. 34 Baptisme Baptisme is an ordinance belonging to the Church 312. 1 Basil Basil for peace sake remooves his dwelling 16. 31 Beza Beza not for promiscuous baptising 158. 19 Beza his opiniō of Synods 228. 11 Beza his carriage when Erastus his booke was published after the authors death 323. 27 Brownists Nearnesse to or distāce from the Brownists but a false rule to trie truth or errour by 10. 2 Brownists errours 280. 35 Burthen What a Burthen is 52. 36 The Burthen of the Complaynants being deprived of those whom they desired grievous by the concurrence of many respects 53. 6 Certainty Humaine Certainty stādeth with a contingency of future events 28. 10. Choosing Power of Choosing Ministers in the whole church 36. 24 the termes explicated 36. 30 the position layd downe as the Affrican Synod Professours of Leyden hold it 37. 8 Proofe of the position reduced to 3 heads 37. 23 Argumēt from the Scriptures 37. 25. Argument from consent of times 40 6. Argument from the evidence of reason 43. 10 Power of Choosing the Church cannot give from her 46. 12 Choyce In Choyce of Ministers there is in cases a necessary use of the combination of Churches 230. 33. Church In what sense Church is taken 36. 33. Church is deprived of her power two wayes 47. 35 Power to governe granted to the Church by witnesses in all ages 237. 21 The order of the Church of Franckford for the power of the Church 243. 13 What authority the Church hath about lawes 258. 10 Classis What the Classis requireth of Ministers which are to be ordained 68. 36 Two things blame worthie in the Classis 9. 12 The Classis repaired unto about the Replyers settling without his consent approbation 185. 34. The proceeding of the Classis after the Replyer had refused his call 193. 1 The Classis assume in some particulars more power then the the Prelates 223. 25 What power is due to Classis over particular Churches by vertue of combination 227. 19 The object of Classicall combinations of Churches 228. 7 Classis power borrowed derived from particular Churches 229. 3. Classis power not a prerogative of jurisdiction but of estimation 229. 27 Classis power not to deprive particular Churches of their power but to strengthen them in the exercise thereof 230. 10 Wherein the Classis power is undue and usurped 231. 26 The undue power of the Classis in making lawes 252. 26 Concerning resting in the determinations of the Classis 271. 14 Classis require more power then the Apostles when they required the Replyer to baptise those which were not members of the Church 287. 10 The Church of Antioch warranteth not the Classis 290. 32 Collection Concerning a Collection which the Answerer calls a recōpense of the Replyers labours 284. 2 Combination What kind of Combinatiō is lawfull among Churches 226. 11 The reasons of the lawfullnesse of Combinations 227. 3 Combinations of Churches in some cases expedient and necessary 230. 30 The Answerers Comforts are the Replyers also 34. 26 Complaynants Complaynants complaints no evill weedes 17. 31 Complaynants vindicated and the Answerer refuted 18. 6 Complaynants defended about their not advising with the Replyer 29. 1 Complaynants cleared of oppositiō unto the worthie servants of God 67. 24 Complaynants vindicated from slaunder in 8 particulars where in charged by the Answerer 88. 28. Complaynants assertions found true notwithstanding the answeres of the Answerer 209. 9 213. 26. Complaint What a Complaint is 3. 24 Complaints not unjust in themselves 3. 28 Fower things required unto an unjust Complaint 3. 29 Complaints of weake ones not to be sleighted 5. 23 Complaints of the Complaynāts unjustly called unjust 4. 10 Conference Conference betweene the Answerer and the Replyer defectively reported 117. 3 Confession Threefold Confession with the observations upon it in the protestation reviewed 18. 17 Contention Contention twofold good and bad 17. 36 Crispe Ia. Crispe vindicated from preaching wherewith the Ansvverer chargeth him 285. 17 Customes Of Customes the evillnesse of them and unlawfullnesse of building any practise upon them 30. 32 Good Customes should not lightly be broken 151. 25 Good Customes of a divers nature 152. 1 Denomination Denomination may follow the better part not the greater 21. 24 Difference Differences in opinion must in cases be borne with 58. 11 In cases of Difference there is necessary use of combination of Churches 231. 16 Elders Vsefullnesse and honnour of Elders 207. 31 Elders cleared from the charge of the Answerer about depriving the Church of her right 49. 15. Elders cleared from partiality 210. 34. Errour Errour ariseth frō the perversenesse of passions 63. 11 Errour in men one cause of harsh censuring of others 63. 29 Examples Examples in disquisition of truth not to be rested on 32. 8 Excommunication In Excommunication there may be good use of the combination of Churches 231. 8. Father What a Fathers duety is towards his children 20. 7 Fenner Mr. Fenners judgment about the power by which the Church should be governed 238. 25 against the Answerer 239. 29 Fleeing Fleeing justified by examples 104. 2. Fleeing not fearing them that can kill and not fainting may stand together 104. 23 Fleeing is sometimes a confessing to the truth 105. 14 Fleeing or a voluntary banishment is in some cases worse then some imprisonment 105. 13 Forbes Mr. Forbes defended 85. 32 commended 87. 30 Generall Generall good to be preferred 12. 32. Hooker Mr. Hooker defended 68. 25 Mr. Hooker not the cause of disturbance but the Answerer 116. 19. Mr. Hooker cleared frō Scisme 246. 1. Iacob Mr. Iacobs judgment about Classis and Synods for substance the same with Beza and Calvin 236. 4. Intentions It is lawfull to judge of mens Intentions 234. 1 Law Three things required to the making of a Law 256. 14 Lawes and orders differ 257. 30 Learned Learned mens judgements not sufficient to justify any thing or condemne it unlesse their grounds be found sufficiēt
answer 7 things 1. That all left not their Country for the same cause 2. That the Church did not desire every one of those 3. That he may lawfully oppose some of these when each of themselves were opposite one to another 4. That in the same eminent persons there may be diverse eminent offences and errours which may be just cause of opposing them and refusing them as unfitt Ministers for some particular Congregations 5. That his opposing of the Election of some of these persons is not a depriving the Church of her power 6. That diverse of these Complainants haue opposed the calling of sundry worthy servants of God 7. That those which were refused were not put back by his authority but either by the Magistrates Classis or Consistory or by their owne voluntary desistance In like manner my reply Reply to these passages shall be 1 more generall to the whole discourse of this Section 2 more especiall to the severall parts First In generall 1. Generally It is to be noated that all his answers tend to the disparagment of the persons whom the Complainants doe so highly reverence To let passe the inhumanity of reproaching the absent and the dead and the impiety of his encouraging the enimyes of God to blaspheme who may easily thinck that they haue just cause to revile and speake evill of these men when they shall see that this Answerer spareth them not and that in print And that I may retort his owne words but more fitly What wonder if they follow when they are so lead forth and by such a grave leader May it please the reader to consider the imprudence of this course Socra 7.2 Socrates reporteth of Atticus Bishop of Constantinople that he was a pious and prudent man and how wonderfully sayth he did he promove the good of the Church by his prudent administration would you know wherein He reconciled those that were at variance about the injury done to Chrysostom to the rest of the Church How was that effected By a course quite contrary to that which this Answerer taketh Not by disparadging Chrysostom as unfitt for the Congregation but by causing the name of Chrysostom to be mentioned in publick with other Bishops Idem cap. 25. I suppose in thancksgiving which plot Proclus one of his successours followed and perfected to the full taking away of that Schysme Idem ibid Cap. 44. For he perswaded the Emperour to translate the body of Chrysostom that had bene buryed else where to Constantinople and to be buryed with much honour and pompe which being done gaue such content to his freinds that their discontent being healed thereby they returned to the Communion of the Church So true is that proverbe Pro. 24.3 Through wisdom is an house and a Church also buylded and by understanding it is established But of contrary causes what can be expected but contrary effects 2. Particularly Secondly more particularly and to the severall particulars I reply thus 1. To the first That we all came out of England for one cause the Answerer acknowledgeth when the sayth wee all agree in the dislike of some coruptions against which we haue testifyed For 1. For that cause we could not injoy our publick Ministry in England 2. Being denyed that we thought it our duety to be of what publick use we might for the service of the Church in any other Country where God should oppn a dore unto us and rather to our Countrimen then others What other particular reason any might haue besids it might concurr as a concausa with others but that still remaineth the cause which was one and the same to us all 2. To the second It is very true and may easily be proved 1. that when an overture hath bene made for any of these men whilest there was hope none opposed their Election but so many as were put upon it expressed their desire of them 2. After the difference betweene this Answerer and any of those men in in some opinion was knowne I appeale to the Church whether they desired not rather that the Answerer would compose such differences betweene him and them by freindly accommodation or passe it by altogether that they might injoy these men then presse things so extreamely to the depriving the Church of them I am confident that the greatest and best part of the Church would answer Yea And I thinck the greatest and best part may well be called the Church and such a declaration of their affection may be judged a sufficient proofe of their desire 3. To the third It is to be observed that he doeth not deny that he opposed some of these men only he knoweth no reason why it should be wondred at First For my part I thinck no man will wonder at it if by reading his answer as he calleth it he have but some such insight into his disposition as Pythagoras is sayd to haue into the stature and strength of Hercules his body by the measure of his foote Secondly Suppose those men are in some few opinions opposite each to other Will that justify his opposing and rejecting them Let him draw his argument into forme of a Syllogisme and it will prove a mere Sophisme and to labour of an aequivocation in the word opposite oppose which in the Antecedent noateth difference in judgement only which may stand with personall concord in the consequent it signifyeth personall opposition and so there be 4 termes in it Thirdly His wholl argument is grounded upon a false supposition For he supposeth that opposition against the person must necessarily or may warrantably follow all difference in judgement The contrary whereof is most true Synodal Dordrecht Rem Sent suae declarat P. 5. When the Arminians odiously exaggerated and objected against the Contra-Remonstrants their different opinions about the object of Praedestination Dr. Twisse learnedly and judiciously wipeth of this aspersion and therein answereth the ground of this Argument by shewing the personall agreement and love betweene those men that so differed and instanceth in Calvin Beza Iunius and Piscator Vindiciae gratiae Digr 1. Sect. 4. each of which had his severall tenet differing from the other and Piscator seemed to differ from them all and yet his high esteeme of them all is manifest 1 of Iunius in his Scholia upon the old testament 2 of Beza in his Scholia upon the New testament 3 of Calvin in his aphorismes gathered out of Calvins institutions 2. in the sweet harmony consent of the Cōtra-Remonstrants in opposing the errours of the Remonstrants and Pelagians which appeared in the determination of the Synod at Dort The same thing is verifyed in those men mentioned in this Section Fourthly The premises being considered it is to be wondred at that he opposeth these men rejecteth them upon this pretence Seing 1. these men in unfeigned brotherly love tender the esteeme one of another and would account it their happines that
them by sollicitations and pretences to be parties with him in an injury But the wrong to himselfe is the greatest of all which I pray God by his spirit to convince him of without which he will goe on still to boast of a false peace To the sixth 6. Ans That diverse of these Complainants haue shewed them selves opposite and averse to the calling of sundry worthy servants of God c. The Answerer should haue shewed Reply 1. Whether these worthy servants of God were desired by the Church 2. Whether their shewing themselves opposite and averse to they re calling did deprive the Church of them being generally desired 3. Whether they disorderly saught to worke theyr wills by raysing unjust surmises and jealousies to gaine a party in the Classis to hinder the Church from the excercise of its power and liberty in the free choyse of those men and that without declaring to the Church the aequity of their so doing by the Scriptures and 4. whether upon this disorderly proceeding of theirs the Church was actually hindred by the interposition of the Classis from freely chusing those men whom they generally desired If yea the case is alike and they deprived the Church of her power as well as he yet that will not excuse much lesse justify him If nay as he knoweth they did not so then he depriveth the Church of her power and not they 7. Ans P. 25. Reply To tâ—e seventh that those which were refused were not put back by his authority c. The question is not whether they were put back by his authority or not for no such authority is due to him and if he doe it it is not by any lawfull authority but by usurpation and tyranny but whether he haue not so farr prevayled though by other mens authority whom he hath irritated by false accusations intimations or intreatyes as that these men haue bene thus put back If not he should have denyed it that the accusation might haue appeard to be false If yea the complaint is just and he is the cause of they re being deprived of theyr liberty and power in the free choyse of their Pastor by whose authoty soever it was done As Iezabell was guilty of depriving Naboth of his life though it was done by the authority of Achab. So that this answer is like the former a mere diversion of the Reader from the true question And thus we have finished our reply to his pretended answer to that which is objected concerning these instances joyntly considered and in generall we proceed to the next 2. His pretended answers to the particular instances severally considered and a part P. 25. A defence of M. Hooker First he beginneth with Mr. H. concerning whom he noateth 3 things 1. The making knowne of his opinions to the Classis by his owne hand wrighting 2. The judgement of the Classis both concerning Mr. H. and concerning this Answerers dealing in the buisenes 3. The reason of his wrighting these things We will examine what he sayth in every one of these To the first concerning the making knowne of Mr. H. opinions to the Classis from his owne hand wrighting Here I must take leave to enquire 2 or 3 things of the Answerer after I haue declared the course that is taken in the Classis with those that are to be admitted into any Church that standeth under them which is this What the Classis requireth of ministers to be admitted by them For trying the fitnes of Ministers for any pastorall charge in any Church combined with others under a Classis the Classis under which it is requireth of them that are to be admitted Subscription to the Catechisme and to the Belgicke confession of fayth and to the determination of the Synod of Dort and to every point of doctrine in them with a promise to teach and defend that doctrine and that they will neither publickly nor privately directly nor indirectly either speake or wright any thing against the same and that they will reject oppugne resist and drive from the Church as much as in them lyeth all errours that fight against the same by name those that are condemned in the same Synod And if it happen that they fall into any doubt or opinion contrary to the former doctrine they promise that they will not propose defend preach or wright the same privately nor secretly before they haue declared the same to the Consistory Classis or Synod and subjected it to examination being ready willingly to submit them selves to theyr judgement under the paenalty of being suspended from they re ministry if they doe otherwise And if the Consistory or Synod upon great cause of suspition for conservation of the purity of doctrine and concord shall exact of them a declaration of theyr opinion concerning any point of the Confession Catechisme or Synodicall explication they doe promise under the same paenalty to be ready thereunto reserving to themselves the right of appealing if they thinck themselves injuryed And they promise by all meanes to defend the Canons of the Nationall Synod at Dort Anno 1619. and never to speake consult or communicate with any person whether ecclesiasticall or civill privately without the knowledge and permission of the Classis concerning any project of moderation or accommodation with the Remonstrants in fraudem praedictorum Synodalium canonum decretorum under the paenalty which the Classis shall inflict upon them according to the exigency of the thing if they doe otherwise even to suspension and abdication To which censure the subscribers doe willingly submit them selves This being the manner of proceeding in the Classis with a Minister that is to be admitted it would be enquired of the Answerer 1. Quaere Why dealt he with Mr. H. and with me and some others by way of private questioning seing the Classis will make sufficient tryall of they re judgment before they re admittance 2. Quaere Why he put those 21 questions to Mr. H. and some of them to me seing the Synods have not determined that those questions should be put to them nor are they proposed by any Classis to any Ministers for tryall of them 3. Quaere Why did the Answerer make knowne Mr H. judgment to the Classis seing in the conclusion of that wrighting he expresseth himselfe thus Because J doe apprehend your opinion and affection to be so farr setled that you conceive there cannot be a peaceable concurreÌ„ce in such distaÌ„ce of judment I am resolved contendly to sit downe and suddenly as I see my opportunity to depart c. Was not here a voluntary desistance To what end was this wrighting carryed to the Classis after he voluntarily desisted Was it not to shelter and hide himselfe under the Classis that it might be thought they deprived the Church of Mr. H. not he was it not to expose Mr. H. to the more reproach and censure when the Classis and Synod had judged
office of the Elders whom he fitly calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he sayth it belongs to them to see that all things in the Church of God be honestly godlily and orderly done And therefore they are to signifye to the ministers if any from other parts come to dwell amongst them concerning whose Religion they are not satisfyed that they may be dealt with before they come to the Lords table Also IF ANY INFANTS ARE TO BE BAPTISED and if there be any thing of that kind which appertaineth to the knowledge of the Overseers for the proffitable and decent administration of the Church Neither is the Answerer only against Mr. Traverse in this but reason it selfe is against him taken from the very foundation of that office in the Church as appeareth in what is already sayd concerning them in the 23. Section compared with what hath bene by me declared against the disorder of promiscuous baptising in the 12. Section 4. He sayth If he had protested against such an order c. Such a protest might have served for a direction to the right use of their power but did not tend to the destruction thereof If it had bene a mere declaration of his judgment and resolution though delivered in forme of a protest and had bene strengthned with good reasons and had bene left to them to consider of it might have served for a correction and direction to the right use of their power without destroying it But when a peremptory and inflexible resolution of opposing what they shall doe against his mind in this matter is held foorth without arguments from the Scripture or good reason to convince them of the aequity of that stiffnes in opposing and when it is not left within themselves but carryed from them to the Classis that by the interposition of their power and authority the Consistory may be hindred from executing or making such an order who seeth not that as by the former they have no direction from him about the right use of their power so by the latter their power is destroyed in this particular which may be proved thus That Act whereby the Elders are hindred that they can not provide for the godly comely and orderly administration of the Church doeth deprive the Elders of their power in government for the good of the Church But this Act of the Answerer in hindring the ending of this difference about baptisme c. by interposing the authority of the Classis for that end was an hindring of them from providing for the godly comely and orderly administration of the Church Ergo. Which proposition will he deny The first But that is taken from the nature of the Elders office as hath bene shewne out of Scripture and reason before And he knoweth it to be true Will he deny the Assumption That is proved by what I have shewen in the 12. Section against promiscuous administration of baptisme as it is in that place whence it will appeare to be not godly nor comely nor orderly and therefore the Elders have power and are bound to provide that it be not done in that Church Sect. 26. In the 26 Section Their second instance whereby they would prove that he depriveth the Elders of their power in government for the good of the Church by carrying matters out of their hands which might and should have bene ended in the Consistory Compl. is that agreement which was amongst them that I should have a yeares time to goe on in assisting the Answerer c. Now let us see how this is answered Ans 1. First He sayth it is untrue that the Elders agreed I should have a yeares time Reply How unjust this chalenge is may appeare 1. By the report of the Elders themselves who say that it was referred to voyces and by voyces agreed that I should have a convenient time and it was particularly expressed by one of the Elders and not gainsayed by the rest that a yeares time would be convenient for that purpose 2. Not onely they but the Answerer himselfe sayth as much in effect For in the 18. Section he reporteth that I made this offer unto them that if the Consistory desired it I would continue as an assistant in preaching for a convenient time that I might therein acquaint my selfe with the Dutch ministers the orders of the Classis and Synod and state of this Congregation c. But though our Elders liked of this offer sayth he and thought good to desire him to remaine with us as an assistant as is before sayd yet I thought it not safe sayth he speaking of himselfe without first taking advise of the Classis Whereby it is manifest that the Elders liked of the offer as it was made by me But they knew that I was of opinion that lesse then a yeares time could not be convenient for those purposes and that I meant that time when I spake of a convenient time yet if they had agreed that six moneths or three monthes should be judged a convenient time I should have rested therein which seing they did not but liked of the offer as it was made by me it seemeth their purpose was to conclude for a yeares time Secondly In stead of answering Ans 2 he recriminateth those that divulge the secret affayres of the Eldership and that untruely Reply The former reply sheweth that the report is not untrue And that the Elders have unlawfully divulged this they put him to prove for they deny that it is unlawfull to acquaint the members with passages of this nature which are not to be kept secret in the Consistory when they tend to the injury of the wholl Church Thirdly His third answer is a mere evasion Ans 3 by putting off the fault from himselfe upon the Classis Reply the vanity of which pretence hath bene so often shewen already that I may well praetermit it here Fourthly Ans 4 In his fourth answer he pretendeth to give reasons for his carrying this matter into the Classis which are not reasons but mere pretences First That whilest matters were thus kept in suspence the cord of contention should have bene drawne out and lengthned But who seeth not that this would have cut the cord of contention asunder when a convenient time had bene given for the composing of things to a peaceable conclusion and when the people should see his regard of their desire and content so far expressed Secondly That in the Consistory where he hath most trouble he should have least assistance But by this course he would have lesse trouble in the Consistory the spirits of men being somewhat quieted and contented Besides I see not but he might have escaped many troubles there if he had not made troubles when he found them not Thirdly That in the administration of Baptisme in stead of an Assistant he should have a Resistant But how could he be a Resistant in Baptisme whose worke was only to assist in
W he perceived in him a peaceable disposition and conceived that he would not give offence by his preaching amongst them It is well that his apprehension is rectifyed at last to perceive that which he did not before That conference did not alter Mr. W disposition but his owne persuasion of him so that the change was in the Answerer not in M. W. As a man in a ship thincks that the shore moves from him whereas the ship wherein he is is carryed from the shore so a man whose passions are disturbed suspecteth every man to oppose him When all was now quiet what course tooke the Answerer He telleth us that he made the same knowne to the Classis whereupon he was admitted to preach And why must this be made knowne to the Classis Is it against the government of these Churches that a stranger to whom the Answerer can impute no errour and in whom he preceived a peaceable disposition and conceived that he would not giue offence by his preaching amongst them being desired by the Church should be permitted to preach a sermon â— 2 or 3 in the English Church without leave of the Classis Can not the Elders doe so much without them Then the complaint is just that the Elders are deprived of their power in government for the good of the Church And seing whilest the Answerer seemed unsatisfyed the Dutch Consistory seemeth to apprehend it to be a case of some difficulty to permit Mâ— W. to preach but when the Answerer is satisfyed the Classis consenteth it appeareth that the complaint concerning the injury is justly against the Answerer at whose instigation and intreaty the Classis doeth interpose so farr in their matters though in this they can not be excused much lesse justifyed in that they assume a power to themselves of restrayning Churches from having the benefit of the assistance of a stranger and pass â—t in such a case without their leave which is more power then the government of these Churches giveth them or any prelates ever chalenged to themselves for aught I know Section 27. examined concerning the undue power of the Classis IN this and the fowre following Sections they make their third complaint of his government viz that he subjecteth that Church under an undue power of the Classis which they aggravate two wayes 1. by his indirect aymes in it for they conceive that he doeth it merely for his owne ends 2. by his irregular pitching upoÌ„ such meanes for the attayning of his ends For they say he doeth it without any warrant from the word of God For our more orderly and cleare proceeding in examining these five Sections I will premise some thing in thesi concerning the power of Classes and then descend to the hypothesis and try how just their complaint is Whereunto the Answerer compelleth me not onely by his frequent mentioning my name which he wrighteâ—â— at its full length every where in the next Section 30 times in lesse then three leaves of paper but also by his acensing me as an opposite to the government of these Churches by Synods and Classes This to be a mere slander the indifferent Reader will judge by what I have already said in examination of former Sections All lawfull Authority I am alwayes and shall be ready to acknowledge with due submission thereunto even when I freely testifye against all usurpation and tyranny and plead for the observation of those ancient limits and bounds which God hath set But I proceed to the matter concerning Classes Jt is not my purpose to speake of the originall of them nor of their antiquity nor to contend about the name given them much lesse to coÌ„demne all use of them Medull Theol lib. 1. Cap. 39 Sect 27. from which I am so farr that I freely confesse with Dr. Ames though the Answerer traduceth both him and me as otherwise minded that particular Churches as their Communion requireth and the light of nature the aequity of rules and the examples of Scripture teach may and in many cases ought to enter into a mutuall consociation and confaederation amongst themselves in Classes and Synods that they may use their common consent and mutuall helpe so farr at it may commodiously be done especially in those things which are of greater moment Provided alwaies that speciall care be taken that under pretence of helping the Churches they doe not hinder them by taking away and diminishing that liberty and power which Christ hath given them It was some such abuse that made Greg Nazianzen so bitter against Councells Epist 42. ad Procop. that he resolved to shun all such assemblyes Which Dr. Whittaker imputed to the evill event Contra. Camp p. 83. edit 1601. whereunto the ambition polypragmony of some men had brought matters who in stead of composing former differences ending those controversyes made new ones which agreeth with Nazianzens owne expression of the reason why evills were rather increased then diminished by them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. For Contentiousnes and ambition prevayled more then reason And it may be some such provocation caused that learned politick man Hugo Grotius so to slight the authority of Classes and Synods Pietas Ordinum Holl. ac West-Fris as he did in that treatise which he published against Sibr. Lubbertus upon which Bogermannus published his Annotations learnedly and succinctly penned in defence of D. Sibrandus wherein for answer of that part which concerned the necessity and authority of Synods he referred Grotius to what Iunius had written against Bellarmine de necessitateeâ—p otestate Conciliorum wherein I fully agree with Iunius But we are now to speake of a more imperfect combination of Churches then that which is in provinciall Synods viz a Diocesan union of them in Classes Betwixt which and the imperfect combination of Churches in and about Geneva there is some difference For that is a voluntary conjunction of the smaller Churches with the greater in one Consistory for their helpe in their particular Church buisenesses the smaller Churches wanting men fit for the manadging of their Church affayres and making one presbytery Zanch. in 4. praecept with the next greater Church which being better fitted meete weekely in their owne Consistory and these with them But this is a combination which is betweene diverse Churches which having their severall presbyteryes or Consistoryes apart send their deputyes viz one Minister and one Elder to meete with the like deputyes from all other Churches Synops pur Theol. disp 49. Thes 5. in such a Diocesse or division at a time and place appoynted to handle such things as concerne many Churches in common and as could not be ended in the Consistoryes of the particular Churches Concerning these the question is in this and the following Sections for the discussion whereof I will propound two things to be considered in thesi or in generall 1. What kind of combination that is which is lawfull amongst Churches 2.
What power that is which is due to them over particular Churches by vertue of that combination For the first The combination of particular Churches in Classes and Synods is either such a consociation of them as is betweene aequalls or such a subordinatioÌ„ of them as is betweene unaequalls The first is by way of counsaile or brotherly direction The second is by way of command or masterly subjection This we condemne as being the first step whereby the Pope ascended into the chayre of pestilence and a mere inlet for tyranny to invade and usurpe the Churches right The other is approved by the practise of the most ancient Churches and by good reason First The practise of the Churches of the first age is cleare for a free seeking and communicating of mutuall helpe by letters and messengers as occasion required and that not onely in Scripture (a) Act. 15 1. Cor. 16. ult Revel 1. et 2. but also in Ecclesiasticall hystoryes (b) Euseb lib. 3. Cap. 32. Cyprian lib. 3. Cap. 13. Catal. test ver lib. 9. p. 109. 110. And Cyprian expresly declareth that the Churches in his time did give mutuall helpe to one another ex charitate non ex subjectione in way of charity not of subjection And the Epitomatour of the Centurists fitly expresseth that combination which was in those primitive times among the Churches by the communion of the members in the body and concludeth that those actions and offices of their mutuall care one for another did not ex imperio aut subjectione quâdam proficisci sed ex charitate aedificandi studio i. e. did not arise from any authority which one did excercise over another subjecting it to the rest but out of love and indeavour of mutuall aedifying Secondly The reasons whereby it may be proved are weighty M. Parker hath saved me the labour of this taske by laying downe six Arguments for the proofe of this in those his learned and elaborate treatises concerning Ecclesiasticall policy as 1 From the ground of this combination of Churches Dc eccles pol. lib. 3. Cap. 22. p. 329. which is love not obedience 2. From the forme of it which is communion and consociation c. 3. From the matter of it which are Churches who are aequall among themselves as members in the body which have a vicissitude of offices mutually to be performed among themselves 4. From the object of it which is res communis that which concerneth all the Churches in common 5. From the outward manner of proceeding which is eollatione conciliorum by conference and communication of counsells 6. From the end of this combination which is not to receive the mandates of other Churches but their consent counsail and approbation The second thing to be considered in thesi is what power or authority that is which is due to Classes over particular Churches by vertue of their combination First More generally This will best appeare by a right understanding of the nature of that kind of assocication or combination as it hath bene in the words immediately preceding expressed For answerable to those two kinds of combination there is a twofold power in the persons so combined whereby they may justly doe such things which others cannot who are not by such a relation thereunto qualifyed Thus to the unaequall fellowship which is betweene superious and inferiours as parents and children Masters and servants Princes and people appertayneth jus Rectorium the power of government Hugo Grot de jure pacis et belli p. 4. but to that other society which is betweene aequalls as brethren Citizens freinds confaederates belongeth jus aequatorium such a power of communicating mutuall helpe as may stand with the preservation of their severall libertyes and mutuall aequality safe and untouched And no other power is due to them quâ tales If they assume any other it is a mere usurpation and transgression of the bounds and limits of their combination Secondly More particularly to apply this to Classes which are sociall combinations of many Churches for mutuall helpe it must be considered 1. What is the object of this combination 2. What power it hath in reference to that object First The object of classicall combinations of Churches is res communis i. e. that which concerneth all the Churches or many of them in that division either of it selfe or by accident Beza declareth Synods to be necessary for 3 causes De triplic Epist pag. 91. 9. 3. 1. to preserve consent 2. to provide common remedyes against common evills by common counsail 3. to helpe those who thinck themselves injuryed by the judgment of particular presbyteryes The Synod of 3 nations in Can. 35 reduceth all to 1. matters of doctrine 2. matters of order and ecclesiasticall policy 3. particular facts To be breife these things are matters either of fayth or of fact whether brought to them or observed by them 1. In matters of fayth their resolution is required not their jurisdiction their counsayl not their command it being the end of the Churches combination in such matters onely to communicate their gifts in fellowship together to find out the sense of the Scripture more clearely and certainely for the satisfaction of all then it could have bene done by any apart from the râ—st 2. Matters of fact are either common or personall Personall matters doe primarily belong to the particular Churches and onely to them so farr as they are proper but if by accident they become common they fall under the deliberation of many Churches thus combined as in causâ lapsorum in the cause of those who fell off in those times of persecution not onely in some one but in many Churches for the discussion whereof Cyprian and the Affrican Doctors also concluded Cypr. lib. 1 Epist 8. et lib. 4. Epist 2. that a common meeting of many Churches was necessary in a buisenes so common and of so great consequence that the plaster might be as broad as the sore and the remedy hold some proportion with the malady Secondly For the power it hath That it may be distinctly understood what kind of power it is which in reference to the present question is due or undue to Classes I will premise two or three distincttons 1. Dist Jt is not potestas originalis but derivata i. e. it not a power which the Classis hath originally in and from it selfe but which is borrowed and derived from others viz from particular Churches So that as the conduit pipes can give no other water then what themselves received from the springs nor the starres any greater light then is communicated to them from the Sun so the Classes can excercise no other power over any particular Church then that which it selfe hath freely given them Hence it will follow that the Classes have not an absolute but a limited power not a Magisteriall but a Ministeriall power not the power of lords but of stewards not of princes but of embassadours
or heraulds not of lawgivers but of cryers or publishers of proclamations not to command as princes doe in the common wealth but onely to signifye and declare the command and will of God And therefore that they may not define or determine matters by the opinions or customs of men but by the truth of God in the Scriptures which they must shew for their warrant Because the Church it selfe from whence their power is derived hath no other power committed to it And none can give that to others which themselves have not And therefore to require and injoyne men to rest in their determinations and judgments without sufficient proofe of their agreement with the Scripture is to give them an undue power 2. Dist This derived power and authority which is given to Classes in these things is not a praerogative of jurisdiction but of aestimation and reverence rather Because Gods ordinance hath limited the former to particular Churches as his delegates in their owne matters it is not in their power to alienate it froÌ„ themselves But the latter is due to Classis consisting of grave learned prudent and faythfull men for their excelent personall gifts in which respect their judgment is to be much valued and received with due regard And for these causes the Affrican Doctors saught helpe of Damasus Ierom Jnnocentius c. in the great question de lapsis that the truth being confirmed by their testimony and consent who were orthodox and sound in judgment might have the more authority with men generally whose eyes are upon men that are famous for wisdom soundnes in the fayth Confer Chap. 8. d. 6. as Dr. Reynolds told Hart yet in the same place he affirmeth that all Churches which the Apostles planted were aequall in power And therefore to ascribe unto them a power of jurisdiction over particular Churches and that in things proper to themselves is to subject particular Churches under an undue power 3. Dist Whatsoever power or authority is given to Classes in reference to particular Churches it is given to them cumulativè not privativè i. e. for the helpe strengthening of them in the excercise of that power which Christ hath given them not for the depriving them of it or streightening them in the due right use of it For whatsoever Ecclesiasticall power or authority is given to any it is for aedification not for destruction in this sense also 2. Cor. 10 8. And therefore all that power whether assumed by them or by others ascribed to them whereby particular Churches are abridged of their liberty and power in any particular is an usurped and undue power These things being thus premised our conclusion is that All that power which Classes have duely received by the free gift of particular Churches as a praerogative of aestimation and reverence or any wayes for the helpe and strengthening of those Churches in the well manadging of their owne matters is a due power But whatsoever power of jurisdiction they assume to themselves for the depriving of particular Churches of that power which Christ hath given them it is an undue power From this conclusion we will deduce two Consectaryes 1. Consect That there is a lawfull expedient and in some cases a necessary use of the communion and combination of Churches being rightly ordered for the helpe of particular Churches in they re proper affayres As First In the choyse of Ministers 1 for provocation to quicken the particular Churches by their exhortations and admonitions to seeke out some fit man if they be slack therein 2 for direction to counsayle and advise them from the Scripture about the fitnes of the men whom they would choose and to admonish them of any notable unfitnes in them to prevent the danger of infecting themselves or other Churches by any dangerous errours maintained by them against the rule of fayth or otherwise of common and important consequence 3 for countenance and protection against any that would deprive them of meete helpers either by false suggestions to the Magistrates or by raysing contention and opposition among themselves Secondly In the excommunication of members which is a matter of great moment if the particular Churches seeke the helpe of neighbour Churches to prevent any errour among themselves in a difficult case or any misreport which may arise concerning theyr proceedings amongst others or to add the more strength for the convincing of those whom they are to censure by the concurrence and consent of grave and learned and prudent men of neighbour Churches they shall doe piously and prudently therein Thirdly In other cases of difference wherewith particular Churches are excercised and whereby they are so divided that the matter can not be ended and the differences composed among themselves by reason of the aequall number of the opposites on boath sides in matters that should be determined by voyces or the difficulty of the case in question In all these and such like cases much benefit and helpe may and should be affoarded to particular Churches by their coÌ„sociation with others in manner aforesaid and they aught to seeke and use they re helpe therein 2. Consect That if Classes under pretence of these ends and benefits assume unto themselves such a primacy of power or such an authority of jurisdiction over particular Churches as 1 that they shall not choose their owne Ministers excommunicate their members c. Without a power derived from them or 2 that the Church is hindred from injoying Ministers of sound judgment and unblameable behaviour at their pleasure or 3. that they may impose conformity to unwarrantable customs or conclusions of their owne as a condition without which Ministers may not lawfully be received by such a Church into the pastorall office or 4 that their saying a man is not fit for such a place whom themselves acknowledge to be fit for any other place and that without shewing the aequity of that their judgement from the Scriptures or aequally and judiciously weighing the lawfull desires of the Chuâ—ch and their right in this particular through a partial adhaering to one party should or may deprive the Church of such men or 5. that the Church may not injoy a man against whom there is no just and sufficient exception as an assistant for a time or to preach amongst them a sermon or two as a passant without their leave or 6. that matters proper to the Church and which may be ended in their owne Consistory commodiously yet being brought to them though but by some one man out of opposition to the rest that he may sway matters according to his owne mind by they re helpe may be taken from the Church and concluded by them in favour of one against the mind of the Church and the Church must be bound to rest in their determination though they shew no warrant from the Scripture to satisfye their consciences about the aequity of their so determining and doing In a word whatsoever
in the Church then in the Pope What that learned wrighter sayth of the Churches power in comparison with the Pope holds in all other paralell instances To these I may add those who have written concerning the right ordering of Churches according to the Scripture I will not stand to give a Catalogue of their names though I might be plentifull therein but will content my selfe with the three wrighters of this kind whom the Answerer pretended in conference with me to make for him and I shall shew them to be strongly against him Mr Cartwright and Mr. Fenner and Mr. Parker men of our owne nation Sect. 4. p. 53. 1. For Mr. Cartwright The very place in his booke whereunto the Answerer referred me I have examined before and have shewen how litle helpe he will have from him De Sacra Theol. lib. 7. p. 279. 2. For M. Fenner He speaking of the Ecclesiasticall presbytery distinguisheth betweene the Eldership of one particular Church which he sayth is properly called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the Eldership of many Churches P. 277. 278. The Eldership of the first sort he sayth is a compound office wherein all the Elders doe in the name of the wholl Church administer all the buisenesses of the Church that is of the Lord by common authority and counsaile And for this purpose he alleadgeth many texts out of the old and new testaments These buisenesses he sayth are either judiciary or extrajudiciary Iudiciary buisenesses are such things as are to be defined by the judgment of the Church which are either matters doubtfull which must be defined by the Scriptures or censures to be administred Extrajudiciary buisenesses are Elections ordinations cheife care of disposing the holy treasures keeping of order in the assembly and all things which are to be done Yet in matters of greatest moment and which concerne the good or ruine of the wholl Church he sayth the Elders after consultation had among themselves must tell their opinions to the Church that if they have any thing to counsail or to object it may be brought in and afterwards the opinions and assent of all being declared matters are to be concluded unlesse it be necessary to referr the buisenes to a greater assembly of Elders for the avoyding or composing of differences which is then to be done when the difference is betweene the greater part of the Church And these matters of the greatest moment are the censures excommunication and absolution from it which is to be done in the assembly by the AUTHORITY OF THE WHOLE CHURCH orders also of the greatest moment to be made controversyes of fayth to be composed the elections and just deposing of Ministers other things aequall to these or greater then they all which must be thus transacted as he plentifully declareth from Scripture Thus I have faythfully translated the words of this eminent light in his time Mr. Dudley Fenner who was joyned with Mr. Cartwright in the publick ministry to the English Company in Antwerpe to whom and to that worke of his Mr. Cartwright in an epistle to him praefixed to that booke giveth a singular testimony comparing him to Moses who from Mount Nebo viewed the wholl land of Canaan as it were with one cast of his eye to whom the Answerer him selfe referred me wherein I admire his confidence as to one that made for him The Reader may see how he leaveth the wholl power of jurisdiction in the particular Church and bindeth them no further to make use of other Ecclesiasticall Senats out of themselves then necessity requireth and he doeth not acknowledge that it is a case of that necessity but when the avoyding of troubles and dissentions in the Church makes it necessary And when is that Not when one alone contentiously differeth from all the rest But when the difference is among the greater part And that in such a case the judgment of the wholl Church is first to be tryed and the opinions and assent of all being declared matters are to be concluded Idem ibid p. 280. Else where he sayth that the presbytery of many Churches is to compose and end such things onely as cannot be ended in particular Churches Act. 15.1 to 8. 2. Chron. 20.33 Act. 16.4 And these are cases either proper to those Churches which are brought to them or things common to many Churches and so taken up by them I demand of the Answerer whether he be of this worthy wrighters judgment or not If not why did he referr me to him for satisfaction If yea why is his practise so different from it For in this buisenes though of so great consequence that it indangered the breaking of the Church if I had not sat downe quietly and suffered wrong for peace sake the Answerer alone opposing the desire of the Elders and of the greater part of the Church and the buisenes being proper to the Church and which might have bene ended among themselves yet against the liberty and right of the Church if Mr. Fenners judgement be right he would carry it to the Classis that he might effect his purpose De polit Eccles lib. 3. Chap. 1. 3. For Mr. Parker He largely and strongly proveth this position potestas Ecclesiastica essentialiter primario in ipsâ Fcclâ—siâ tanquam in subjecto proprio residet The power ecclesiasticall doeth essentially primarily reside in the Church it selfe as in its proper subject The sense wherein he thus spake to prevent all suspicion of his pleading for popular confusion he declareth out of Zanchy who sayth Zanch in praecept 4. quest 3. toti Ecclesiae dedisse Christum claves sed ita ut in Ecclesiâ certi essent qui clavibus utantur ad salutem Ecclesiae honoremque Dei That Christ gave the keyes to the wholl Church but so that there should be certaine men that should use the keyes to the good of the Church and glory of God For the proofe of the former that the right of power is in every particular Church he useth five Arguments in the 6 7. chapters then in the 8. chapter he cometh to speak of the excercise and ordinary execution of this power which is he sayth in the Church-officers or rulers yet with this moderation that this dispensation of the Churches power in the officers be according to a well tempered forme partly Aristocraticall partly Democraticall the Church committing those things to the presbytery which it can not commodiously performe by it selfe and retaining that excercise of power which belongs to the dignity authority and liberty which it hath received from Christ Thus he wholy destroyeth that democraty or popular Anarchy which Beza justly condemneth in Morellius and is by some unjustly imputed to those that plead for a due reformation of Churches according to the rules of the word and the primitive patternes Of the first sort of things which the Church committeth to the Rulers because it cannot commodiously performe them by
it selfe he speaketh in cap. 9.10.11 of the second sort of things which the Church retaineth in it selfe because it can commodiously excercise them by it selfe he speaketh in cap. 12. Wherin by 22. Arguments he proveth the Churches superiority over her Pastors and rulers in 3 respects 1. of the end the power which they have being given them for her aedification 2 in respect of the application of it to the persons 3 in respect of regulating the use of it if it be abused And in cap. 18. 13 making a comparison betweene a particular Church and Churches combined in Synods and Classes he affirmeth that the difference betweene them is not in the intensive consideration of their power which the congregation hath in reference to the Keyes within it selfe but in the extensive power onely wherein the Synod hath a power extended to more objects viz to many Churches in things common whereas the power of a particular Church is confined and limited within its owne compasse The same authour in the 20 chapter speaking of the summity or supremacy of the power of particular Congregations propoundeth the due limits of it wherein he conceiveth it is to be understood and bounded as that the power of particular Churches is cheife 1. in its owne matters not in things commoÌ„ to many Churches 2. in case it be able to transact its owne matters within it selfe as if a doubt or controversy arise the Church hath power to terminate it if it can as the Church of Antioch first disputed the matter among themselves laboured to compose the difference within themselves but finding not a want of right to end it among themselves but need of more helpe they sent to Ierusalem freely for the helpe of their counsail in this matter 3. In case of right and lawfull administration 4. In case of no evill administration praesumed by those who finding themselves wronged by an unjust sentence appeale to the judgment of the Synod In which 3 last limitations other Churches to whose judgment or advice persons injuried by an unjust sentence appeale doe concurr in way of counsail and declaration of theire judgment to helpe particular churches to excercise theire power aright P. 47. P. 239. in they re owne matters as was before noated out of Mr. Cartw. and Mr. Fenner and out of the Authour himselfe in the foregoing passages wich being so understood doeth not justifye any undue power of jurisdictâ—oÌ„ if it be excercised by the Classis over that Church in the cases manner complained of by the Subcribers and how fully it agreeth with my stating of the question in the beginning of this Section will appeare to the indifferent Reader when he shall have compared boath together Casus conscient lib. 4 c 24. qu. 4 et c 25. qu 5. Thus we have examined his owne witnesses and find them wholy for us in this cause To these I might add Dr. Ames in that which he wrote in his latter time wherein the Answerer pretendeth that he set downe his jugdment more warily in this matter Dioc tryall p. 13. et 21. then formerly See his cases of conscience the 4 Booke where he speaketh clearly of this power as essentially belonging to particular Churches To him I may add Mr. Paul Baynes a man of singular noate for learning and piety in Cambridge where he succeeded Mr. Perkins who freely expresseth his jugdment for the right of particular Churches 1. part 2. l. 2. p. 104 105. c. and their independence in this sense in his Diocesans tryall With whom I might joyne the Replyer vpon Dr. Downams defence who not onely declareth his owne jugdment herein concurring with the above mentioned but also joyneth with them the suffrages of diverse others as the Centurists Illiricus D. Andrewes Bishop of Winchester Dr. Fulke Willet Thom Bell Ciprian Augustine Gerson Ferus Desp caus pap lib. 2. To the same purpose hath a worthy and learned wrighter of these countries Voetius Professour of Divinity in Vtrecht whose words I thus translate Sect. 2. cap. 12. p. 18. 6. The Church is the spouse of Christ which is the proper and adaequate subject of that power to whom Christ hath committed that delegate right reserving the cheife to himselfe Which aught to be and to remaine so proper to the Church that it neither may be snatched away by the authority of others nor lost by their voluntary concession nor committed to the trust of any other although diverse acts belonging to the calling of a Minister may and aught to be performed by certaine members of the Church Thus he professedly vindicateth the Churches right in an Aristocratico-Democratie as appeareth in the title of that chapter And to conclude thus it was ordered in the English Church at Franckford among the exiles in those Marian daies that A Discourse of the troubles in the Engl. Church at Franckf Art 62. Art 67 if all the Ministers and Seniors be suspected or found parties if any appeale be made from them that then such appeale be made to the body of the Congregation c. that the body of the Congregation may appoint so many of the Congregation to heare and determine the said matter or matters as it shall seeme good to the Congregation Againe If any controversy be about the doubtfull meaning of any word or words in the Discipline that first it be referred to the Ministers or Senjors and if they cannot agree thereupon then the thing be referred to the wholl Congregation The 28. Section examined IN this and the three following Sections they bring proofes of the justnes of their complaint of his subjecting the Church under an undue power of the Classis Their first proofe is 1. Proofe his giving them power to keepe out such men as he would have kept out though they abhorred all haeresy and Schysme And they instance in Mr. H and me which is aggravated 1. by the primary agent he viz the Answerer 2. by the innocency of the persons injuryed they being such as abhor all haeresy and schysme c. 3. by the Answerers partiall carriage he would have had other that to this day hold the same opinion To keepe out Ministers whom the Church desireth being free from haeresy or schysme is not in the power of the Classis by any warrant from the word or by any order established in the Synods of these countryes And therefore the power whereby they doe that is an undue power and the complaint of the members against it is just Let us examine his answers which are six The 2 first in reference to the first aggravation serve to accuse the Complainants of a double slander 1. of slandering the Answerer in saying that he gave the Classis this power 2. of slandering the Classis in saying they received and excercised this undue power boath which he aggravateth bitterly enough after his manner To be breife in so plaine a case Had they power to hinder
initio vitiosum est non potest tractu temporis convalescere much more will it hold in the Church in such a case as that unwarrantable custom of promiscuous baptising Sect. 12. which I have proved to be unlawfull in Sect. 12. Secondly Seing nothing hath bene said by the Answerer in defence of the proceeding of the Classis in answer to their complaint of their excercising an undue power in this particular let us now see if he answer sufficiently in his owne defence wherein we will with Gods helpe examine what he sayth in answer 1. to the generall charge 2. to the proofes of it First The generall charge is that he hath given them this undue power Hereunto he pretendeth to make five Answers 1. He sayth it is untrue He onely sayth so but doeth not shew it to be untrue by declaring that either the Scriptures or the Nationall Synods or the Church or good reason hath given it them And so seemeth to be content that the suspicion of usurping may lye upon the wholl Classis rather then he should be suspected to have given it them But he will not so evade if what was replyed to the same answer in the foregoing Section be considered and applyed to this also 2. In his second answer he seemeth so to deny his giving them this undue power as withall secretly to confesse that he gave them counsaile to use this power which he hath not proved to be due That it is undue hath bene proved already and that it being so he hath not behaved himselfe as a pastor in the government of the Church in counsailing them to use an undue power over his Church needs no proofe at all the thing done being sufficient evidence against him 3. His third answer is a mere retortion of the complaint upon the Complainants and a recrimination of them for allowing the Consistory to make orders lawes thereupon he demandeth can this power of making lawes and orders be lawfull and due in a Consistory and yet an undue power in the Classis Are they not condemned of themselves For answer hereunto it must be understood 1 That orders and lawes are ill confounded by the Answerer They may make orders who have no power of making lawes So Iunius distinguisheth them fitly Praelatorum non est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sive mandata dare non praecepta sed ordinationes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ecclesiasticall Governours may give orders not lawes not commands not praecepts Else where he sayth the Fathers called them more fitly Canons because a Canon serveth to direct agentem volùntariè one that acteth voluntarily whereas a law necessitate etiam cogit in voluntarium compelleth a man against his will Chameâ—â—â— also expresseth himselfe acutely to the same purpose De ecclesiâ p. 367. 368. saying that the determinatioÌ„s of Churches are more fitly called admonitions and exhortations then lawes and that when they agree with the word they are admonitions in respect of the Church but lawes in respect of God onely to wit because the Church commendeth that which God hath commanded and that which the Church so commendeth is the word of God 2. That all mistake may be prevented the two extremes avoyded of tyranny by ascribing too much power to the Church and of dissolute libertinisme and Anabaptisme by denying its due power in this particular we will declare what authority the Church hath about lawes and orders by distinguishing betweene lawes already made Luke 10.16 Mat 18.17 1 Cor. 4.21 and lawes to be made In the first we grant that Church governours have great authority and power to wit of providing that men yeeld due obedience to all Gods lawes and ordinances which they are to commend and declare to the Church and to exact their obedience thereunto And indeed this is the very end of all Ecclesiasticall authority Rom. 1.5 and 15.18 So that herein they have more power then of admonishing and exhorting and reproving onely they have the power of censuring and thereby of compelling the severall members to their duety and of seeing that all things be done in the house of God decently and in order 1 Cor. 14.40 In this sense I conceive the order to be made in the Consistory is to be understood the things thereby ordered being no other then that rule of having all holy administrations performed decently and in order requireth And being so understood it doeth not at all patronize that undue power of the Classis 1. Because the Church hath that power in her owne matters which the Classis hath not 2. Because this was but an order for my accommodation in my voluntary obedience of the word warranted by the rule but the contrary made by them is a law for the establishing of an evill custom not warranted by the word and to compell me against my will to the observance of it As for the second The things about which lawes are made are either necessary or indifferent Things necessary are things coÌ„manded or forbidden in the Scripture And they are necessary either absolutely or in some considerable respect Things absolutely necessary to godlines are so constituted in the Scripture that no place is left for the impositions of any new law givers About things necessary in some considerable respect Churchgovernours have power to give order as did the Synod at Ierusalem touching those things which they called necessary Act. 15.28 viz necessary during the time of the offence of the Iew which was necessary to be avoyded Hereunto also serveth that rule Let all things be done decently and in order Cor. 14.40 but the rule of that decency must be not the will and pleasure of men but the light of nature Scripture or warrantable custom For so it was in the instances given in that chapter as for men to pray with long hayre woemen bare-headed in those Easterne countryes and for woemen to speake in the Congregation and for many men to speake at once Things indifferent are such as being neyther commanded nor forbidden in the Scripture may be variously permitted or prohibited according to various circumstances And they are eyther improperly or properly so called Things improperly called indifferent are things not necessary but onely expedient in some respect In such cases Churchgovernours have power to declare the decency and expediency of them yea and to advise and perswade the practise thereof but not by standing lawes to bind the people thereunto As the Apostle gave his judgmeÌ„t 1. Cor. 7.25.40 advise coÌ„cerning single life in time of the Churches distresse yea and perswaded to it for avoyding trouble in the flesh vers 26.28 but would not bind them to it neither in point of conscience nor of outward practise as having no commandment from the Lord vers 25. and sayth that such a commandment had bene a snare vers 35. And herein the power of Churchgovernours falleth short of the authority of civill Magistrates who may in civill matters make standing
allowance towards this recompence so he propounded it not to others by them to be considered and when by others it was propounded to him though he hindred it not for that was not in his power yet when he saw that they purposed to expresse their love some what liberally he tooke occasion to cast in discouraging speeches against it in a sermon preached by him at that time when I was absent as they that heard him told me 7. Whereas I received that fruit of the love of some among them for my 6 moneths labours in that place the opposition which the Answerer hath raysed against me hath put me to the charges of thrise 6 moneths in these parts by compelling me for peace sake to remove to some other place where I might live quietly though upon mine owne charges whereas in that place it was offered me by some of them that the ordinary allowance which the Dutch Ministers receive should be given me if I would live amongst them though privatily But I preferred peace before outward advantages and departed thence to my outward dissadvantage and losse through his unquietnes His other answers which he pretendeth to make to the Complainants but thorough them smiteth me are already examined In his fifth answer he blameth them for false imaginations touching his thoughts intents How just this reproofe is his owne consciēce knoweth but he is very unfit to be a reprover of evill surmises who is so abundantly culpable of the same evill in so many passages of this booke yea in the next immediatly precedent passage he expressed a false imaginatiō concerning my intentiō in preaching against Schysming to those that frequented the private excercise wherin he dealt injuriously with thē me In his sixth answer he would persuade the Reader that the Church did not desire me after this difference which is contrary to the professions of persons of all sorts except Th. All. What he sayth in the 7 8 9 10 answers hath bene examined before The last passage in this Sect concerneth the preaching and prophesying of Ia Cr and Tho. Flet. which is elsewhere also repeated Whereunto I am contēt at the importunity of one of them P. 102. P. 106. See p. 30. 71. 82. 106. Aug. contr Iul. Pelag. lib. 1. viz Ia Cr. to say some thing Wherefore passing by his scornfull manner of naming them which is very usuall with him though it better became Iuliā the Pelagian then the Answerer I will onely relate the answer which I received from him in wrighting contracting it thus 1. That he never read and applyed Scripture at any meeting out of his owne house 2. That in his owne family he remembreth not that ever there were in any private Religious excercise above 5 or 6 persons of other families at one time 3. That he hath not had such meetings above 5 or 6 times in 8 or 9 yeares 4. That he remembreth not that any one hath bene at any such duety in his family these 4 or 5 yeares past at least except some allowed minister were there present 5. That when they did meet he did not preach but read the Answerers or some others men labours 6. That the Answerer never admonished him of any fault herein privately nor did he ever heare that it was disliked till the Answerer girded at such meeting in a sermon 3 or 4 yeares since 7. That when he saw that the Answerer had wronged him in print by an untrue report of these matters he went to his house to convince him privatly thereof but departed thence without satisfaction 8. That a few dayes after as he heard the Answerer saught for witnesses and found 2. as it was sayd Ia. Cr. spake with them boath and found the one very defective and more against the Answerer then for him The other said that about some 5 yeares since he heard Ia. C. read in the bible and some wrighting concerning it but whether the Answerers sermons or any other he dare not say But Ia. Cr. constantly affirmeth that this witnes was never at his house at such an excercise If this be so let the Reader judge whether this action deserveth to be so censured or published In the 41 Section I find my name but thrise mentioned That which he sayth of me in his fifth answer is a direct contradiction to that which he said of me in the 14 15 answers of the second Sect. The other passages in this Sect. which concerne me are answered In the 42 Sect. he falleth againe into his old guilt of false imagination by misjudging our intentions in a private fast Concerning which ill usage of his J may take up the Psalmists complaint Psal 96.10 When I wept and chastned my soule with fasting that was to my reproach His answers to Allegations of Scripture brought by me examined BEfore I search into the particulars of his answer I have just cause to complaine that my Tenet in this question is not proposed but mangled and counterfait that though some prints lineaments of it are represented yet not in their true decency and proportion like certaine looking glasses which representing the visage mishapen yet after a sort praeserve something of the hue complexion Which will appeare by cōparing what is here said by him with that which I then wrote to the Classis which because it was large and in lattin a private wrighting I forbeare now to publish till further provocation Whereby the learned may see 1. What mistakes were in the Translation as it was published in that printed pamphlet against which I protested in print 2. That my intent in wrighting to the Classis was not to dispute the point but to declare passages betweene the Answerer and me for the removeall of calumnies which had bene cast abroad among thē 3. That the 4. first Scriptures were alleadged not to prove that no infants should be baptised whose parents are not members of that Church but to shew that they had no power to require any more of me then to performe the duetyes of the pastorall office to the members of that Church whereunto I should have relation which I was ready to performe So that my wrighting served onely to prevent that trouble which I foresaw would follow if the Classis to gratifye the Answerer should assume to themselves an undue power of binding me to rest in Sect. 12. 13. 14. conforme to that wrighting spoken of before And that such power is unjustly assumed by the Classis I prove thus That power which exceeds the bounds of Apostolicall authority is unduely assumed by any Classis But the power of binding a Pastor to performe a duety of his pastorall office unto those who are not members of his Church exceedeth the bounds of Apostolicall authority Therefore the power of binding me to baptise those that are no members of that Church whereunto J should be Pastor is unjustly assumed by the Classis Which proposition will
before his death that his wrightings in that controversy had bene too bitter professed his inclination to publish some thing for the qualifying of them but that be feared the scandall that might grow upon such his retractation as is to be seene in the Admonition of the Divines of the County Palatine concerning the booke called liber concordiae Thus a groundlesse jealousy sharpened Luthers spirit in that controversy and a groundlesse jealousy hindred him from retracting what he had written Had the same jealousy hindred Augustine the wholl Christian world had bene loosers thereby wanting that helpe by his booke of Retractations which now they have Which unproffitable jealousy whereby men will make good what they have said or done least they should seeme to have erred Ambrose piously cast off and confessed that his wrightings had need of a second review et qnantumlibet quisque profecerit Ambr offic lib. 1. Cap. 1. nemo est qui doceri non indigeat dum vivit How much soever any man hath profited every man hath need to be taught whilest he liveth These things being premised for prevention of scandall which may be taken at the Answer whereunto the ensuing Reply is made I will breifely conclude after I have added one or two words for prevention of unaequall censures upon the Reply it selfe with respect to the matter and to the manner of my proceeding in it 1. For the matter I must intreat the wise hearted Reader to vouchsafe a benigne favourable construction of things that may seeme lyable to some misconstruction and to consider that in all the passages of this discourse I have a particular respect to the question betweene us avoyding by-matters As for instance when I speake of the summity of the power of particular Churches in re propriâ in such things as are properly their owne doe instance in the choyse of their ministers it may be some captious polititian will thinck that I abridge the povver of the civill Magistrate which is farr from my purpose though I speake as I doe limiting my selfe to the question betweene the Church and the Classis onely which was the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For I acknowledge not onely that submission obedience is due by the fifth commandment both to the highest Governours in every common wealth according to the severall lawes and customs thereof as to Emperours Kings Consuls Princes Dukes States and to other officers and ministers under them as Senators Counsailours Iustices Majors Sheriffs Balives Constables c. these and the like being in respect of their severall kinds 1. Pet. 2.13 Rom. 13.1 that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 every ordinance of man yet in respect of their common nature and power 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are ordered or ordained of God and that for conscience sake in all their civill lawes and constitutions but also in matters ecclesiasticall spirituall it belongeth to the cheife governour or governours to be nursing fathers of the Church as well as of the Commonwealth Isa 49.23 to be Custodes et vindices utriusque tabulae and that they may and aught to establish by their authority the true Religion pure worship of God and to forbid and punish not onely civill persons for civill crimes but even Churchmen also and boath sorts for crimes against Religion as Blasphemy Haeresy Idolatry Sacriledge Schysme c. and to take order as occasion may require that the Churches make choyse of fit officers and that Church officers doe their duety in every kind according to all Gods ordinances and institutions and that the wholl worship of God and all the parts of it be administred in the congregations decently 1. Cor. 14.40 without uncomelines and orderly without confusion of which care they have excelent praecedents set before them for patternes in the Scripture such as David Salomon Hezekiah Iosiah Nor are the matters of the Lord 2. Chron. 19.11 and the Kings matters of so different a nature that the care of the things of God doeth not appertayne to the King but onely to the high Preist but they are distinguished in the manner of their performing them the Magistrates discharging their part civilly politically the Church officers executing theires ecclesiastically and spiritually that so piety and policy the Church and Common wealth religion and righteousnes may dwell together may kisse each other and may flourish together in the due subjection of all sorts of subjects to Princes and Magistrates and of both princes and people to the scepter and government of Iesus Christ Iames 4.12 that one lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy 2. For the manner 1. I have endeavoured to carry my selfe inoffensively in this wholl treatise without wronging or provoking any and for that purpose have concealed the name of the Answerer wishing that it may not be remembred upon this occasion to blemish any of his well deservings in any other service to God or to his Church 2. I have laboured so to temper my stile that the truth may be manifested by his owne actions sincerely related rather then by my verball censures 1. His owne words I have truely repeated and answered and when I have bene compelled to contradict those things whereunto I could not consent I have laboured to shew reason more then passion therein If any thinck it might have bene done more smoothly and plausibly let him know there is a difference to be made betweene personall vindications and doctrinall ventilations there being not the same degrees of provocation to passion in the latter as in the former and that some of the personall aspersions whereunto I am enforced to make reply are such as whereunto a simple cold negation without some vehemency would seeme incongruous as Ierom speakes of the suspicion of haeresy or schysme wherein he sayth it becometh no man to be patient To conclude let the Christian reader if he meete with any such passages suspend his censure till he have bene put upon the clearing of his innocency to the world in answer to a printed booke made in so provoking a manner by such a man upon such an occasion himselfe being excercised with the same tryalls difficulties wherewith I am excercised in these tossings to and fro yet with much quiet in my spirit thorough inward supportments wherein I may say to the prayse of Gods grace in my measure As the sufferings of Christ abound in us 2. Cor. 1.5 so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ Lastly If any man shall thinck that my Reply is too large let him consider 1. that the particular matters of fact wherein myne innocency was necessarily to be defended are many 2. that I could not declare and maintaine the truth which I hold in points of doctrine and which is in word or actions opposed by the Answerer in a breifer discourse 3. that a necessity was layed upon me to wright somewhat on the behalfe of other Reverend ministers some whereof
if it 2 neither did he keep private as mourners use to doe but came to the Consistory 3 neither did they apprehend the death of that mayd to be so great a cause of sorrow to him as is here intimated for reasons which are not worth the printing 4 that if it had bene so they cōceive that private greifes should not hinder the redresse of publick greivances and that by the sense 〈…〉 owne sorrow that day for the losse of one mayd servant he might have bene more affected with compassion towards them who had many dayes mourned for the losse of more then one Pastor whom God had by his providence brought among them almost cast upon them Secondly The same observation may be retorted upon himselfe both for the yeare and the moneth 1. The yeare wherein his booke was printed was the yeare 1635. A time when not only the Churches of Dutchland were in great affliction but also the Churches in the Low Countryes were in great danger the Prince of Orange being then in Brabant and the Armyes in some distresse by want of victuall a time wherein by speciall order from the States Generall all Churches were called upon to meete one day in a week in publick to heare the word preached and to pray for the good successe of the Prince and of the Armyes And we are commanded as in all prayer so particularly when we pray for those in authority 1. Tim. 2.8 to lift up pure hands without wrath c. 2 The moneth wherein it was published was Iune or Iuly a time when I was very weake having bene not long before very neare unto death at which time he laboured importunately with the Classis for their consent to the printing of this booke But from that death and from dangerous relapses afterwards into weaknes and distemper the Lord in mercy recovered me even when man cruelly added sorrow to my affliction But I wil aggravate that no further How well he performeth his purpose of not doing the least wrong to those against whom he wrighteth will appeare to the indifferent Reader in the examination of the following Sections in which if he had dealt accordingly I might haue bene happily freed from this unpleasing taske whereby I am now unwillingly detayned from more profitable imployments being compelled hereunto by necessity for the justifying of the truth wherein I doe humbly beseech the God of trueth who also is Love to assist me with the spirit of trueth and of love that I may be inabled in every passage to declare the trueth in love To conclude I leaue it to the Reade to judge whether so to contend be worthy of such a censure as this Answerer layeth upon it or of any blame at all for the matter of it and the thing done unles in the manner of it any unwarrantable distemper of affections or passions have appeared in the complainants which if it be found I will not justifye neither will they I hope justify it in them selves So much be noated for the vindication of theire complaints Secondly Now being called See more concerning that wrighting in Sect. 22. 4 Things in defence of my wrighting 1. I must cleare the wrighting left by me from his unjust intimations against it For which purpose I will declare fowre things First that the wrighting qua tale is not to be blamed Suppose I had complained Is it unjust to wright downe a mans complaints Then downe with all courts of Iustice where suits causes are so transacted And my case was such as I could not be righted against many injurious reports purposing to leave this country otherwise then by wrighting Againe a man wrighteth with more deliberation and a more full recollection of his thoughts then he speaketh and so with more strength as the scattered beames of the Sun heate more intensly and vehemently being united in a burning glasse And lastly I would haue added that a man wrighteth with more composednes of mind and a better temper of spirit then he usually speaketh and so with more solid judgment the passions being somewhat quieted and allayed as the water is cleare and transparent after the mudd is setled in the bottom but that the distempered passions appearing in the Answerer and that in print are a reall confutation thereof Secondly Neither was the secret spreading of the wrighting a fault but rather an Argument of my tender care of his reputation that I desired that matters betweene us should not be divulged but only declared where it was necessary for their satisfaction who had bene praejudiced against me by untrue reports of passages Or if the delivery of a wrighting to a freind or two in myne owne defense was to be blamed what shall be sayd to him 1. Who provoked me thereunto both by private suggestions and by publick injuryes 2 Who him selfe did the same thing without being provoked thereunto by me For he wrote a large letter to one Mr. B. at N. in England dated Septemb. 26. in which moneth also he had revived contention in publick after I had satt downe quietly almost 5 moneths and with this he sent inclosed a copy of the wrighting of the 5 Ministers which I never did because I tooke it to be a private wrighting not to be communicated without their consent Thirdly Neither was that wrighting a complaint if actions be denominated from their ends but rather an Apology or true defense of my innocency against untrue reports about my letter to the Classis and about the question concerning promiscuous baptizing of all that are presented by whom soeuer and about passages betweene the Answerer and me being frequently importuned by some freinds to giue them myne answers to such objections that they might be inabled to satisfy others that were praejudiced unjustly against me So that in my intent it was an Apology if by accident it became a complaint who is to be blamed He that complaineth or he that gave the cause let the Reader judge Fourthly Here is an old fallacy Nō causae ut causae when my wrighting is pretended to be the cause of their complaints which was not For they complained of many of the greivances mentioned in that wrighting not only before my wrighting was seene but before I saw Amsterdam And though they make some complaints which agree with some passages in my wrighting yet they make many more also which are not in my wrighting Who watered those rootes So much shall suffice for the vindicating of my selfe from the imputation of contentiousnes and of my wrighting from the censure of watering evill weeds of unjust complaints Ans He sayth of our Church had he not exercised much patience and industry it would certainely have fallen from me c. But as he doth vainly prayse him selfe c. Here is a 4 fold charge layed upon me with bitternes enough Reply 4. Things unjustly charged upon me 1. Vaine selfe-praysing 2. Wronging him and the Church 3. Folly and
he should have laboured privately to convince Mr. Pet. by word or wrighting and have published it thus to the world 3. If he would publish it in such a disorderly unwarrantable manner yet he should have declared the justnes of his reproofe by shewing what rule of the word was transgressed by Mr. Pet. in so doing else he will be found guilty of adding to the word and of making eleven Commandments And for the Complainants at whom he girdeth I say the same thing and doe add that the best way for his owne account and their comfort had bene for him to have joyned with them in desiring the assistance of some faythfull Minister whom God should point out by the earnest and joynt desire of the Congregation that so they might not have justly pleaded for themselves that they have bene constrained to seeke abroad through want of comfortable supply at home Another pretended opposition is betweene Mr. Forbes and Mr. H. touching the authority of Synods and Classes The pretēded opposition betweene Mr. F. Mr. H. examined 1. Had he shewen in what point the opposition did consist I should have answered and shewed that neither did Mr. H. condemne all use of Synods and Classes nor Mr. F. acknowledge all that authority to be due to them which some men for advantage sake ascribe to them or others out of an inordinate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are ready sometimes to assume to themselves 2. But be it so though no such thing appeareth in the 21 questions or otherwise that J know that they were herein opposite each to other Did Mr. F. reject or oppose Mr. H. for any such difference Did he not earnestly desire and chearefully imbrace his fellowship in the worke with him Did they not live together for the space of about 2. yeares so like brethren that an indifferent observer might say of them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in vita Naz. 2. Cor. 12 18. 2. Sam. 10 11. as it was sayd of great Basill and Nazianzen there seemed to be one Soule in two bodies or as Paul sayth of himselfe and Titus Walked we not in the same spirit Walked we not in the same stepps If they had bene absent one from another with what joy with what congratulations yea with what embracements did they meete and intertayne each the other How did they unite their forces as Ioab and Abishai not only against the common adversaries but each for others personall vindication and defence mutually All that I will say to the Answerer for a conclusion of this instance Luk. 10.37 shall be in the words of our Saviour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. The pretēded opposition betweene Dr. Ames and Mr. Forbes examined Another pretended opposition is between Dr. Ames Mr. F. in three things 1. touching the authority of the Magistrate in causes Ecclesiasticall 2. touching Adoption going before Iustification 3. touching the active obedience of Christ in the point of Iustification In the first of these he joyneth Mr. Parker with Dr. A. in opposition to Mr. F. but he should have shewed whether Mr. F. denyed all authority of the Magistrate in those cases or only some and what that authority is which he denyed them that the Reader might have seene the question rightly stated and then we should have bene able to make a more punctuall answer thereunto then now we can 2. What ever difference of judgment was betweene D. A. and Mr. F. in the 2. other points it is evident to those who knew them that there was much unfeigned love betweene them accompanyed with a Reverend and high esteeme each of the other mutually expressed upon all fitting occasions And so much shall serve for answer to his third pretended answer the Vanity where of that I may use his owne words will appeare to the intelligent Reader by what hath bene replyed I proceed now to the fourth pretended answer To the fourth Ans concerning eminent errours and offences which may be in eminent persons just cause of opposing and refusing them c. Be it so but First Let it be proved that it is so in these persons Reply wherein the Answerer is to prove 3 things 1. That the things charged upon these persons are offences and errours 2. That they are eminent ones 3. That they are just cause of opposing and refusing such eminent men as unfitt for his Congregation Secondly Let these things be proved by Scripture For all men are apt 1 to err and to be in loue with their errours 2 to be harsh and unadvised in their judgement of others First Men are apt to err to be in loue with their errours Chameron of popish praejudices Cap. 1. The cause of which mischeife is the perversenes of their passions which oftentimes so overheate distemper the heart that out of it as it were exhaling thick and black vapours upon the understanding they either disturbe our judgments or altogether dull our apprehensions In which respect an heart chafed with passion leaveth us in a worse case then peircing smokes doe the eyes which bereaue us of our bodily sight For they seing nothing can not be deluded by lying apparitions but by these though the light of the understanding be dimmed yea extinguished yet there remaines a presumptuous conceit of our owne cleare sight and reall comprehension of the truth whence it is that man compassed about with thick darkenes confidently imagineth that he walketh in the sun-shine and he is strongly conceited that he hath then fast hold of the truth when he huggeth an absurd ridiculous fable Secondly from the same cause it is that men are harsh and rash in their censures of others who dissent from those tenets for the defence whereof they are ingaged And as men that looke thorough a coloured glasse thinck that all the things they see thorough it are of the same colour with the glasse so they judging of mens opinions by the errour of their owne distempered fancyes cry out Errours Errours many times causelesly 1 Cor. 1.23 Thus the Panymes puffed up with a conceit of their owne wisdome accounted the doctrines of the christian Religion foolishnes And as their passions increase so their censures will grow more harsh and bitter So that lesser errours shall be accounted haeresies and small infirmityes eminent offenses and trueths themselves shall be miscalled dangerours errours Hiron ad Ripar contra Vigilant Hence it was that Ierom held Vigilantius for an haeretick because he held it unlawfull to pray for the dead and to worship the dead bones and relicques of the Saints and praeferred Mariage before Virginity Thirdly To prevent a scandall against these men and their Tenets let the Reader know that the suspition of falsity is a calumny ordinary to trueth yet trueth is not to be disliked for such imputations under which it is often hid as admirable beauty under a maske or as a solid sparckling diamond under some discolourment But as
Quaere Who incited the Dutch preachers and after them the Magistrates to insist upon those difficultyes to the depriving of the Church of such a man 3. Quaere Whether the Church was satisfyed with that which the Answerer told them was done in this buisenes or whether diverse of them did not intreat him to try once more And what his answer was Ans 3 As for the exception that this complaint is a raking into a buisenes that fell out 20 yeares past and if they re dealings for 20 yeares together c. Reply P. 28. 1. If this were a fault in the Complainants to rake into matters 20 yeares past concerning him yet he is unfit to reprove it who in the very next page raketh into a buisenes concerning Mr. F. about 30 yeares past Anno 1605. for which he was banished out of Scotland whereof we shall speake in its place 2. If it were so with him about 2 yeares since in my case and 2 yeares before that in Mr. H. and 2 yeares before that in Mr. Pet. and I know not how long before that in Dr. A. and 20 yeares since Anno 1610. in Mr. Par. and 24 yeares since in Mr. F. his case it seemeth to have bene his constant course thus to injury the Church 3. Personall and private evills past long since and reformed may not be raked into warrantably when publick greivances still continued may be raked into provided that they be not made more publick then necessity requireth and the ayme be right to seeke reformation not to cast reproach upon mens persons Jn the fourth place he dealeth with Dr. Ames but it is after his death It is no valour to trample upon a dead lyon A defence of Dr. Ames Iob. 41.8 of whom I may say if he were alive as the Lord speaketh concerning the Leviathan Lay thine hand upon him remember the battail and doe no more We shall have fit occasion in the ensuing passages to say more for the vindicatiō of his deserved honour against the disparadgments by the Answerer unworthily cast upon him whose name is as a precious oyntment in all the Churches of the Saints and shall be to future ages which will abhor these indignityes cast upon him What is sayd concerning him may be brought to 6 heads Ans 1. that his calling was never put to voyces 2. that the Answerer signifyed to one that asked him occasionally that he thought him not fit nor could give his cōsent 3 that he denyed the authority of Synods Classes 4. that he acknowledgeth he hath written diverse learned worthy treatises 5. that he was fitter for a Professour in Schooles 6. that his leaving of Franeker was disliked by all learned men approved by none To the first 1. The Answerers memory hath not bene so faythfull a record in passages betweene him and me Reply that I should from his not remembring it conclude the thing never was especially when it is so waveringly expressed as if he did remember that his name was propounded but not so propounded as that voyces were asked and gathered which might be and yet the complaint of the members just if upon the proposall of his name the Answerer stifly opposed it saying I thinck him not fit for us and I cannot give my consent whereby the voting of it might easily be hindred though the Church had generally desired him 2. That experience which I have of the ill setting downe of the acts of the Consistory in myne owne case which I shall discover in its place causeth me the lesse to regard they re records of propositions of agreements in that meeting to account them insufficient evidences for proofe of the doing or not doing any thing in question Ans To the second that to one asking him occasionally he signifyed that he thought him not fit for them neither could give his consent for him Be it so he confesseth that he signifyed so much to one whether that one asked this question secretly Reply or in the Consistory alone or in the presence of others he sayth not this maketh good that part of the complaint that he opposed rejected Dr. Ames also Neither doeth the not putting of it to voyces prove that they did not generally desire him seing his peremptory answer to that one might cause them to dispayre of injoying their desire if they had proceeded further in it It is some favour to have a quick dispatch I wish from my heart he had said so to me and I should have prevented all this trouble by a voluntary desistance long before And so much I said to him but he said he would not answer me alone that the blame should lye upon him only he would see what could be done with the Classis in favour of me as I understood him but time hath taught me my mistake Pardon this digression But why was not Dr. Ames fit Ans To the third that he denyed the authority of Synods and Classes 1. What Dr. Ames held touching the authority of Synods and Classes Reply we shall have time to examine in the insuing passages wherein it will appeare I hope that his opinion rightly understood can procure neither great nor any confusion or disturbance of Churches 2. whereas he pretēdeth that his intertaining of Dr. Ames in respect of this his opinion would have bene an occasion of Contention or Scandall that the vanity of his suggestion may appeare let the Reader know that Dr. Ames was minister of the English Church at the Hague where whatsoever he held touching this question it occasioned no contention nor scandall neyther to English nor Dutch Afterward he was Professor at Franeker where he continued twelve yeares who ever heard of any contention or scandall occasioned by his opinion given to any there all the time of his abode with them The contrary whereof appeared by the great unwillingnes of the Curateurs of that Academy to leave him which the Answerer acknowledgeth Pag. 18. when it may serve as he thincketh to reflect blame upon the worthy Doctor After this he was called to Rotterdam where God finished his course to give him the Crowne of righteousnes What contention or scandall did his opinion or practise according to it occasion there But as in this so in many other passages in his booke the Answerer hath often miscarryed by an unwarrantable striving to praepossesse his credulous Reader with unjust praejudices against those whom he praesenteth to common view as his opposites I wish he may see his errour therein and amend it for the future and that in the meane time the judicious Reader may not be deluded thereby 3. If the Answerer hath as he sayth earnestly contested with Dr. Ames ever since he was acquainted with him and yet still he persisted in the same it shewes that Dr. Ames did not apprehend that strength and weight to be in his arguments and allegations as himselfe fancyed And all men know that the Dr.
was sufficiently able to discover the strength or weakenes of an Argument To the fourth Ans That he acknowledgeth him to have written diverse learned and worthy treatises 1. While the Answerer seemeth ingenuous in giving his adversary his due he is politick Reply in giving him no more then he must necessarily nor then he may safely without praejudice to himselfe for opposing his calling to be his colleague First so much he must necessarily acknowledge that he may decline the censure of all learned men in case he should doe otherwise For eveÌ„ his professed adversaries will doe so much And though all men should be so possessed with a spirit of envy that they would hide and blemish his worth yet his workes will prayse him to posterity which we will distribute under theyr severall heads thus Besides the booke mentioned by the authour his Demonstratio logica his Polemicall treatises which are extant are 1. that sinewous worke Bellarminus enervatus where the volumes of that daring Iesuit and Cardinall are so concisely answered as if Homers Iliads were in a nutshell and that exact peece in the Arminian controversies his Coronis besides those other disputes viz his Antisynodalia contraÌ„ Grevinchovium his 1 and 2 Manuduction his Reply and Triplication 2. His systematicall treatises his Catechisme which I find mentioned but have not seene it that worthy worke worthily called Medulla Theologiae the Marrow of Divinity and that practicall institution wherein he exceedeth not only Pontificians and Lutherans handling that argument but also his owne guide in that worke who died before he could finish it famous Mr. Perkins his Cases of conscience 3. His exegeticall treatises viz his Analysis upon the wholl booke of the Psalmes which he lived not to perfect to his mind his noates upon the 1. 2. Epistles of Peter and upon the catecheticall heads Secondly so much he may safely acknowledge without prejudice to himselfe for opposing his calling Any ingenous Protestant will acknowledge so much of many popish wrighters in theyr comtemplative and morall discourses both divine humane The Answerer will acknowledge so much of Mr. Ainsworth against whom he hath shewne himselfe more opposite then against this Dr. 2. If Dr. A have occasioned many to rejoyce justly and thanck God for his labours because they have bene of much good use in the Church of God I wish from my heart that the Answerer instead of sharpening his stile to cast reproach upon the memory of so worthy and learned a wrighter had imitated his example in publishing proffitable things that others might prayse God for the fruits of his labours and not such wrangling stuffe and unproffitable invectives which serve onely to greive the hearts of Gods people and for my part I would not have troubled my selfe to reade much lesse to answer if I had not bene thereunto compelled Secondly Was Dr. A. his judgement about the authority of Synods and Classis such an offence Non eadem sentire bonos de rebus ijsdem Incolumi licuit semper amicitiâ as all these worthy and learned treatises for which so many prayse God could not expiate Suppose they had differed in theyr opinions could no accommodation haue bene thought of Amongst good men it hath bene easy to joyne them together in one Church notwithstanding greater differences But what if Dr. Ames his judgement be sound in this matter As it will upon tryall be found to be Will it not then be easy to determine whose cause is most justifyable whose case is most eligible whether his who persiseth in the truth or his who resisteth it though I hope not maliciously in this particular To the fifth Ans Not to speake of other things c. he was generally held more fit to be a Professour of Divinity in Schooles c. I must crave leave to demand Reply what those things are that he omitteth to speake of And if he refuse to answer I may take liberty to supâ—ose that his opinion against promiscuous baptizing is one of those other things If so it is easy to gesse why he will not speake of that at this time 2. It is true 1. Cor. 12.28 Eph. 4.11.12 there are diversityes of gifts answereably diversityes of administrations but as one spirit is the authour of those gifts so one Lord is the authour of those administrations even our Lord Iesus who hath given Doctorall as well as Pastorall gifts for the service of his Church not only to that primitive Church but also to the end of the world 3. Nor is there such opposition betweene Churches Academyes that a man who is generally held fit for the one may not be judged fit for the other They who hold him fit for a Professour did in holding so account him orthodox and sound in his judgment And holding him so sound in his judgment that he is fit to be Professour in an Academy in these Countryes they must necessarily conclude that for the soundnes of his judgment he is fit much more to be a Pastor in any Church in this Country and so condemne the Answerer of injudiciousnes in saying he thinketh him not fit and of selfe-willednes in saying that he can not give his consent for him and of injury to the Church in depriving them of such a man who is generally held fit to be a Professour of Divinity in the Schooles both for learning and sound judgment 4. How fit was for the service of any Chvrch whether in a Pastorall or Doctorall way let his workes testify which declare him to have bene a man well fitted to aedifye the Church by words of knowledge which is the Doctorall way witnes those worthy disputes and Systems published by him and by words of wisdom also which is the Pastorall way witnes his expositon of the Psalmes and of boath the Epistles of Peter and his booke of conscience wherein he doeth that in divinity which Socrates is sayd to have done in Philosophy viz to bring it from heaven into mens houses by reducing all into practise which also he doeth in his uses or applications of Doctrine in his expositions of Scripture and in his practicall resolutions of cases in that booke All which being considered will evince this suggestion of unfitnes to be a vaine pretence that I say no worse 2. How ever whilest he continued fixed in his Academicall imployment thorough continuall scholastick exercises and disuse of publick preaching he had bene formerly lesse dexterous therein yet two things shewed him to be called unto the service of the Church in that worke 1. the strong inclination of his owne spirit thereunto even when his whole time was taken up in the other taske For he hath often bene heard to professe that he would willingly travaile many miles to preach a sermon being as it seemeth like a nurse who is in paine of the fullnes of her breasts for want of some to suck them 2. He no sooner was resolved to joyne himselfe
under no lesse paenalty then my not admittance to the pastorall worke in the English Church notwithstanding the unanimous desire of the Congregation Was not this to make them necessary observances The case is so cleare that the Answerer himselfe doeth not at all deny it 2. Let us see whether the power whereby they have done this be a due or an undue power And it will appeare to be undue if neither the Scripture nor the Nationall Synods nor the Church nor any good reason have given them any such power And this we will declare with Gods assistance distinctly in every one of them First The Scripture is so farr from giving the Classis any power of making lawes to bind particular Churches in cases of that nature that it doeth not once mention any such kind of combination nor doeth allow any such power to the deputyes of any Churches consulting together for their common good The Texts which Bellarmine alleadgeth for the power of Councills in making lawes are the same which the Answerer sometimes harpeth upon in this case but Iunius clearly sheweth that they make nothing to the purpose Deut. 17.8.10 Sect. 24. Ans 4. The first is Deut. 17. Which place the Answerer alleadgeth to prove the Classis to be an higher judicatory and above the Church Thou shalt doe according to the sentence which they of that place shall shew thee To which Iunius giveth 2 answers 1. The cases are not alike For in those times the mind of God was revealed to those Judges in obscure and difficult cases by signes and answers from God himselfe 2. He grants that the sentence of those Iudges was to be obeyed servatâ clausulâ salutari that holesom clause which Moses puts in being observed according to the sentence of the law Vers 11. which they shall teach thee So that the sentence of those Iudges did no further bind men to rest in it then it was according to the sentence of the Law And yet these were Iudges by Gods expresse appoyntment which the Classes have not to shew for their judicatory in the same manner as those Judges had Act. 15. 2. The other Text is Acts 15. alleadged by Bellarmine to prove the binding force of the decrees of Councills and by the Answerer Sect. 31. Ans 5. to shew the authority of the Classis whereunto Iunius giveth 2 answers also 1. Non sequitur ex particulari si custodienda fuerint decreta Concilij Apostolici ergo omnium servari oportere It doeth not follow from a particular that because the decrees of an Apostolicall Councill are to be observed therefore the decrees of all Councills must be so kept Cont. 3. lib 4. cap. 16. And whereas Bellarmine affirmeth that the question there was not defined by Scripture but by the voyces of the Apostles Iunius denyeth that any thing was ordayned in that Councill but from the Scripture as he had before demonstrated thereunto referreth the Reader And whereas Bellarmine sayth that the decree of the Apostles was not left to the examination of the Disciples but that they were simply commanded to obey Iunius chargeth him with falsely supposing two things 1. That the Apostles alone made this order For the Elders concurred with the Apostles in this sentence and the wholl Church all of them being taught by the spirit of truth to thinck the same thing And this he sayth is the manner of proceeding in those Councills where Christ is praesident 2. That the same respect is to be had to the determination of others as of the Apostles Which is an errour he sayth For it was the singular priviledge of the Apostles that they had immediate assistance of the Holy Ghost and infallibility in their Apostolicall determinations so that what they delivered was to be received without examination whereas the dictates senteÌ„ces of all other are to be examined by their wrightings wherby it appeareth that the Scripture acknowledgeth no such power of making lawes to be due to the Classes unlesse they can produce some other texts which when they shall be alleadged shall be further examined if God permit Secondly No generall Councills or Nationall Synods have acknowledged any such power to be due to Classes for aught I can find if any others have found out any such let them declare the Canon of such Councills and Synods wherein it was so concluded and the ground of such a determination being found sufficient I shall willingly receive it and submit thereunto In the meane space let it be considered that they who distinguish betweene Generall Nationall Provinciall and Diocesan Councills say that the two former have authority to make Canons but the two latter onely to see that the Canons imposed by the two former be observed Praef ad distinct 18 as may be seene in Gratian. Thirdly The Church hath not given them any such power nor indeed can it 1. It hath not as appeareth in their complaints of it as undue as a greivance and in the profession of diverse of the members that they never knew that the Church was so subjected 2 That it cannot appeareth in this that the Church it selfe hath no such power and none can give what they have not In what sense this assertion is to be understood and upon what grounds it is to be received we shall have occasion to declare in examining his answer shortly to follow whereunto I referr the Reader Fourthly That no good reason giveth the Classis this power of making lawes to bind particular Churches will appeare if two things be declared 1. what things are required to the making of a law 2. what instances they produce to shew the undue proceedings of that Classis herein First the things required to a law are these at least 1. a due authority or power orderly authorised thereunto 2. its consonancy and consent with the law of God 3. that it is referred unto and doeth respect the common good Secondly let the instances produced by them be brought to these rules and it will be found 1. that they want sufficient authority for making of such lawes 2. that such a law agreeth not with the law of God 3. that it is not referred to the publick and common good by what hath bene already said partly in this Section partly in the 12 Section and partly in other Sections The issue whereunto the instances drive is that the Classis excerciseth an undue power when it bindeth men to any observance upon no better ground then the mere custom of a place which is then done when â—hat custom is not warranted by the word For howsoever in civill administrations in Common wealths some customs have the force of a law Hist. 1. part 2. book 4. Chap. 15. Sect Vlp. li. 29 as Sir Walter Raleigh well observeth Yet in Church matters it will not hold the reason of Churches and Commonwealths being not the same But if the rule hold in Commonwealths that quod ab
of such as the word is preached to their parents Or what other use serveth it to His fourth answer is that the administration of the Sacraments is also a duety of the ministry to be performed by a Pastor to more then the members of his particular Congregation c. Reply 1. Here againe I must continue and renew my complaint that the Answerer proveth not the power of the Classis in the particular in question 2. To admit those that are knowne members of another Church to communion in the Sacraments upon fitting occasions I hold lawfull and doe professe my readines to practise accordingly but is this any thing to those who refuse to joyne with any Church concerning whom and such like the question is Is the administration of the Sacrament a duety of the ministry to be performed by any Pastor to such If he say yea let him prove it If nay why then am I blamed for refusing it His fifth answer is ill bottomed upon a false supposition that the practise of the Church at Antioch in sending to the Church of Ierusalem warranteth Classes to excercise such authority over particular Churches as is now questioned Reply 1. I say it is ill bottomed For it will be hard for him to prove 1 that meeting to be Classicall which was but of 2 Churches consulting upon an extraordinary occasion in a difficult case 2. That this meeting consisted of Ministers onely seing the text sayth that at Antioch they gathered the Church Act 14.27 What was that the multitude Act 15.30 and at Ierusalem the Church Apostles and Elders are joyned together in receiving those messengers Where the Church againe signifyed the Multitude v. 12. who are also called the wholl Church and brethren v. 22. 23. 3. That those that dwelt at Ierusalem dealt in the case of those at Antioch by way of Classicall jurisdiction and authority seing Paul and Barnabas were sent who were not inferiour to the rest of the Apostles either in authority or in the infallible direction of the Holy Ghost and they were sent principally for the stopping of the mouths of those Seducers which pretended that they were sent by the Apostles as the Apostles intimate in their epistle to the Church at Antioch Act. 15.24 4. That the Classes have power to impose their decrees upon other Churches that have no delegates with them as the Apostles did at that time upon all the Churches of the Gentiles v. 23.28 Cap. 18.4 2. As his answer is ill bottomed so it is ill built unlesse he can prove that it is a part of every ministers office to be excercised in governing the members of many other Congregations as well as his one combined in Classes which he doeth not goe about to doe nor will be able out of Scripture where no such property of a minister is expressed either in the Acts or Epistles of the Apostles 3. As his answer is ill bottomed and ill built so is it ill added to prove the power of the Classes in the matter concerning which the question is which it doeth not prove at all His sixth answer wherein he pretendeth to come nearer to the place Act. 20.28 and so he had need to doe for hitherto he hath gone farr enough from it is that the flock is attended by the labour of the Pastor that it may be increased which is done by the labour of faithfull ministers seeking to bring those into the fold which at first are no members of the Church Reply 1. If all this were granted yet it will not conclude the point in question as will appeare to him that shall frame it into a Syllogisme 2. It may be questioned whether this drawing into the fold be the pastorall attendance there meant though I doubt not that it is lawfull and a duety but it seemeth not to be intended in that charge left with the Pastors of Ephesus 1. Because the worke of the Pastor qua talis is to feed a flock already gathered 1 Cor. 14.2 Ioh. 4.39 Act. 8.4 with Ch 11.19.20 21. Mat 18.19 Iames. 5.19.20 not to gather a flock unlesse by accident God casting in some to heare by a providence as that unlearned man that came in amongst them whilest they were prophesying or in some such like way though I doubt not it is a pious worke a bounden duety for a Pastor to labour the gayning of others 2. Because the labour of bringing in others into the fold hath bene undertaken by those that were not Pastors with blessed successe the Lord giving this glory to his owne word made effectuall by his spirit and not limiting it as a priviledge peculiar to any office in the Church And therefore even those out of office also are bound to labour in it His seaventh answer is that to assist a Church that is destitute of their Pastor in convincing erronious personâ— judicially in the Church is a duety and yet may be required of a neighbour minister Therefore men may excercise some acts of their ministry towards such as are no members of their Congregation Reply 1. Here againe somewhat is said but nothing to the point For will it follow that because a Minister may helpe a neighbour Church in convincing those that erre that therefore the Classes have a right to exact of me as a condition of my admittance to the pastorall office to baptise those infants whose parents are not under my pastorall charge 2. Though it be true that it is required of a Pastor to be able to convince erronious persons and that when he doeth it according to Christs order it is a part of his pastorall worke yet will it follow that wheresoever he excerciseth that ability he doeth execute a part of his pastorall office If not to what use serveth this discourse His eighth answer is that my profession of my readines to baptise their infants who are not members of this Church if I may be satisfyed that they have a right to it by their membership elsewhere in regard of the communion among particular Churches doeth plainly refute my selfe Reply 1. The thing that I question is the power of the Classis to bind me to such a condition 2. Suppose I had expresly denyed them to have this power as indeed I doe by consequence in the places of Scripture alleadged by me against it how doeth this profession plainely or darkely or at all refute that He sayth diverse wayes 1. Then it is an errour to thinck that a Pastor may not excercise his ministry in some acts of it toward those who are no members of his Church But I have already shewen that the question betweene us is not whether I may lawfully baptise such but by what right the Classis can exact it of me in the manner aforesaid How will he make good this inference Because it is not lawfull for the Classis to exact it in that manner therefore is it not lawfull to be done Or because he erreth that holds it not lawfull
worke of his ministry towards those that are not of his flock charge by denying the Argument in every one of his proofes But enough hath bene said already and my desire is onely to satisfye all men concerning what I wrote to the Classis being called and compelled thereunto 2. The second text is in Coll. 4.17 Say to Archippus Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord that thou fullfill it Ans The Answerer sayth the answer made to the former allegation may serve for answer of this Reply It may so even as fitly as for that that is not at all as hath bene shewed in the examination of those Answers onely one thing more we will add from hence to what hath bene said That as the Apostles tooke no such power to themselves to bind ministers to doe the worke of their ministry to those who are not of their Church So the Church also hath not power to require any more of them and therefore the Classis cannot who have no more power then is given them by the Churches in that combination Ans 1. Yet from hence also diverse things are to be observed 1. that if the ministry aught to be fullfilled then not to be lightly forsaken c. Reply True but if the Church give an orderly dimission upon just cause as it was in my case the ministry is not lightly forsaken but fullfilled so farr as the Church did or could reasonably require it and therein that text is satisfyed Ans 2. If the ministry aught to be fullfilled then are the ministers to declare the wholl will and counsaile of God so farr as it is revealed to them for the good of Gods people Act. 20.20.27 Reply True Neither have I bene altogether wanting to the discharge of this duety in my measure and in that manner as might be for the good of Gods people His third answer hath bene replyed unto in Sect. 20. and therefore to add more in this place were but actum agere lost labour As the Answerer would have every godly Minister consider whether it be not meete that each of these things should be duely regarded of them So I could add other considerations and observations which might be not unproffitable yet least I should seeme to render reproach for reproach I will forbeare them and spare him 3. The third Text is in 1. Pet. 5.2 Feed the flock 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is among you Ans The strength of that objection which is implyed in these words hath bene already taken away in answer to the former allegations Act. 20.28 Reply As in the former places so in this no more is required of Pastors by vertue of their office then to feed that flock to the tending whereof themselves were designed by a singular appointment Ans 1. The similitude taken from shepheards doeth not restrayne ministers from excercising some acts of their ministry towards those who are no members of their Church seing shepheards for the defence and benefit of their flocks combine themselves c. Reply The combination of shepheards is a good embleme of a well ordered combination of diverse ministers For 1. it is in common cases of danger to the flock or for mutuall assistance in difficult cases as appeareth in those instances alleadged by him Gen. 29.7.8.9 Esay 31.4 Luke 2.8 2. it is for the good and helpe not for the hurt hindrance of the flock 3. no one shepheard is streightned in the discharge of any pastorall duety to his flock or bound to performe the office of a shepheard to any other flock or sheepe then those whereunto he is appoynted by the Lord and owner of the flock from whom he receiveth his commission And in such a way of combination among ministers much good may redound to particular Churches and to the Pastors thereof Ans 2. The word translated feeding doth also signifye to rule and governe if this kind of feeding be restrained to one Congregation then is the authority of Classes overthrowne then is it unlawfull for assemblies of ministers to give their voyces for the decision of controversies in any Congregation but their owne contrary to Ezek. 34.12 Reply To feed in this place is to governe as becometh shepheards that are servants Luke 22.27 not as lords of the flock which is there forbidden vers 3. from the appearance whereof they are not free Dr. Ames in 1. Pet. 5.3 1. that will have the Church in any sort to depend upon their authority 2. which prescribe any thing as necessary to be done by Pastor or people which is not drawne out of the Scripture 3. who declare the will of God it selfe too imperiously having no respect to their infirmity with whom they have to doe Now such a government doeth not overthrow any lawfull authority of Classes much lesse doeth it argue it to be unlawfull for assemblies of ministers to give their voyces for the decision of controversies whereby the right ordering of particular Churches is not hindred but furthered Neither doeth that Scripture alleadged by him contradict any thing here spoken nor indeed doeth he shew how it serveth for the purpose for which he produceth it Ans 3. If we consider the persons to whom Peter wrote this Epistle the elect strangers dispersed 1. Pet. 1.1.2 and their manifold necessities in those times of persecution what an unreasonable thing is it to imagine that the ministers of those Countryes might not excercise some act of their ministry for baptising of those dispersed strangers c. Reply Seing the question is onely of the power of the Classis in binding a minister according to the tenour of that wrighting of the five ministers and seing I acknowledge it to be lawfull and professe my readines to baptise those that are not members of this Church if they are members of any true Church I see not how this exception is of any validity against any thing said by me in that wrighting unlesse he will accuse the Apostles of unreasonablenes in not making some order for that Classicall authority which he fancyeth 4. His fourth answer is of no use in this question the premises being considered Another place of Scripture Rom 14.5.23 was alleadged by me to shew that they might not warrantably bind me to the thing in question seing I could not doe it with persuasion of the lawfullnes of it and feared that in doing it I should sinne against Christ Ans 1. The Apostle here speakes of doubting about things indifferent c. Reply 1. If this thing be necessary to the calling and office of a minister which is in question it had concerned them or him to shew in what respect it is necessary whether by any command of Christ which could not be obeyed in the discharge of of the pastorall office without doing this or as a meane necessarily conducing to the ends whereunto the pastorall office serveth 2. If the Apostle will not have men bound to the doing of
Chrisme and exorcisme although ancient are well abolished we would desire also that not only superfluous but also unfit questions were omitted also although Augustine in a certaine epistle would excuse it with a certaine interpretation but he calleth it infirmum commentum and that fitly And therefore the practise of those Churches in putting the question to the father of the child is more suitable to the rule because in the Covenant which God maketh with the parents the right of the infant to baptisme is founded and the power and care of educating the child in that fayth lyeth upon them To let passe this digression The custom of those times concerning men of yeares though it doe not every way touch the case of infants yet it sheweth the piety of those times and the judgment of the Ancients concerning the point in question de suscipientibus baptismum And howsoever in those times some superstitious rites were used in baptisme and some errours in Doctrine are to be found concerning the absolute necessity of baptisme to salvation yet not one of them so farr as my small reading hath inabled me to discover defended such a promiscuous administration of it as that wrighting of the five Ministers required as necessary or lawfull But if any man will wrest that conclusion of those Ancients in Cyprian to patronize this course whereof Cyprian speaketh thus Cyprian lib. 3. epist 10. haec fuit in concilio nostra sententia A baptismo atque a gratiâ Dei qui omnibus misericors benignus pius est neminem per nos debere prohiberi Let him know that those words if they be taken apart from the rest may seeme to favour the errour of universall grace as well as promiscuous baptising And indeed they countenance boath alike that is neither of them at all being considered in Cyprians intendment in that epistle which was to answer Fidus who held that infants of two or three dayes old ought not to be baptised arguing from Circumcision which was not administred till the eight day and from the bodily uncleanenes of infants at that age Cyprian in answer to his first Argument sheweth him that Circumcision was a shadow which is now vanished and in answer to the second used those words Acts 10.15 and concludeth thus Si etiam gravissimis delictoribus c. If remission of sinnes be given to the most greivous sinners when they afterwards beleive and repent and baptisme is not denyed to them how much more ought it not to be denyed such infants They that know how streight Cyprian was in nullifying the baptisme of those who had bene baptised by haereticks and such as were out of the Church cannot imagine that any helpe may be expected from him for warranting the administring of baptisme to their infants who are out of the Covenant Now if any thinck that there is some colour for the justifying of this course to be found in the capitulation of Charles King of Sycily with the Sarazens Speed Chron lib. 9. cap. 10. in the life of Edw. 1. at the seidge of Tunis in Africa the third Article whereof was that such as were willing might freely receive the Sacrament of Baptisme Let him understand that that agreement was only to establish the free excercise of Christian Religion not to warrant promiscuous baptising which was not at all in question at that time Thus the records of ancient times are against this disorderly custom and concerning the judgment of later times since the reformation if enough have not bene said already more shall be added in answeare to the seventh pretence Only that I may omitt nothing that I meet with in my reading which may seeme to carry any colour of favouring that custom though but in the letter I have produced those two instances of former times and will now add to them two or three of latter times In whom I purpose not to examine or censure their expressions but onely to shew that this evill custom is not maintained nor to be defended by what they have written First I will beginne with that question which excercised the Ministers that met in the Classis at Neocomum Beza epist 9. Whether the infants of excommunicates are to be baptised and in whose fayth seing their parents are not members of the Church The occasion whereof was this A certayne man of a very wicked life having 4 bastards and thrise deceived the Church with hypocriticall confession and promises was excommunicated together with his harlot The question was whether the fourth bastard begotten after their excommunication should be baptised The Ministers of that Classis declared their judgment which they sent in a letter to Beza thus we are of opinion that the infant being borne of such desperate parents is not included in the promise of blessing and therefore should not be baptised till it come to that age wherein it may make profession of its owne fayth unlesse the parents returning againe to God by true repentance be againe received into the bosome of the Church or it be presented by certaine godly persons who will bind themselves by promise to performe the duety of parents to the child Vnlesse perhaps because it is borne within the Church it should be baptised for the fayth of the Church Thus they Epist 10. Beza wrighting to them his judgment in this matter distributeth those who are not to be accounted members of the Church into fowre sorts farr different one from another To omit the former three as being not in question the fourth sort is of those who being elect of God and ingrafted into Christ yet falling through infirmity and giving offence unto others are delivered unto Sathan that godly sorrow may worke in them repentance Of this last sort sayth he is the question Concerning whom he first supposeth diverse things 1. That they are such of whom we may judge in charity that their estate is not desperate 2. That though they are great sinners yet they are not Apostates which forsake the Church nor joyne themselves with adversaryes in persecuting the truth 3. That some difference is to be made betweene Turkes and excommunicate Christians or Papists 4. It is hard to judge whether infants belong to the Covenant in respect of their first parents profession or not Secondly Vpon these suppositions he concludeth that the infants of excummunicates that remaine in the Church may not lawfully be denied baptisme But this he delivereth with two provisoes or caveats 1. That a fit surety bind himselfe to the Church for the holy education of the child 2. That upon this occasion the Minister doe at that time seriously exhort the father being present to repentance in the presence of the Church before he baptise the child Which he sayth was frequently done in their Churches viz in Geneva Thus he Concerning whose answer I will propound two or three considerations First Though Beza was a very Reverend judicious Divine yet in matters of faith
it is not safe vllius jurare in verba magistri to rest upon the authority of any man without a warrant from the Scripture Secondly Compare what was alleadged out of Beza himselfe in my 1. Reason in this Section with this passage and what Mr Cartwright answereth to some part of this in the same Section the Reader will see that it may easily be declared that this sentence will not helpe the Advocates for promiscuous baptizing Thirdly Consider the state of the question as Beza maketh it and it will appeare that the infants for whose Baptisme he pleadeth are of such as we may rationally judge to be ingrafted into Christ and elect of God only being fallen by infirmity are delivered unto Sathan that godly sorrow may worke in them repentance But what is this for the justifying of a promiscuous administration of Baptisme to all that are offered in such a place as Amsterdam concerning many of whom we can not rationally have any such persuasion Fourthly The foure things supposed by Beza as cases wherein he dare not give liberty of baptising serve to discover the evill of this custom whereunto that wrighting would have bound me For if all that are presented though they refuse to make knowne before who or what they are must be received may not the infāts of many whose case is desperate in the judgment of the Church who are not only Apostates from it but persecutors yea even the children of Iewes Mores and others such like without the parents consent be offered to baptisme and so be baptised which were to profane the Sacrament 2. Observe how timerously Beza expresseth himselfe about the parents on whom the right of the infant to baptisme dependeth in this case whereby it may seeme that he was not fully cleare in it himselfe Fifthly The cautions and provisoes which Beza giveth to be observed in the baptising of such children of excommunicates as he there speaketh of doe strongly condemne the disorder of that place where the father is so farr from being admonished publickly of his sinne that he is not so much as knowne or inquired after and where they are so farr from taking care for the holy education of the child that they regard not by whom it is presented nor what becommeth of it afterwards 2. De consc lib. 4. cap. 27. Secondly Dr. Ames commeth next to be considered and a passage in his booke of cases to be examined least some ignorantly others willfully wrest it to the countenancing of this disorder which to be farr from his meaning himselfe doeth abundantly declare in the same place For he so expresseth his opinion concerning the baptisme of diverse sorts of infants there mentioned as it may appeare that his judgment was against promiscuous baptising all that are brought according to the controverted custom which I demonstrate thus Resp 2 First he requireth 2. things in such infants as necessary to their admittance 1. That they be in the covenant of Grace in respect of outward profession and aestimation at least in one of the parents 2. That there is hope that they shall hereafter be educated und instructed in the same covenant Both which he affirmeth upon the same ground which we layd in the first Reason viz Because Baptisme is a signe and seale of the covenant But how can they be esteemed Christian parents or what hope can there be of the education of such infants in the covenant when both the parents sureties are altogether unknowne to the Church and that in such a place as Amsterdam where is such a confluence of people of all nations and Sects Resp 3 Secondly He affirmeth that Baptisme doeth most properly belong to those infants whose parents at least one of them is in the Church not out of it And this he affirmeth upon the former ground viz Because Baptisme is the seale of the covenant But who knoweth not that many people are in Amsterdam who are not in the Church but out of it in many respects yet none must be refused that are presented to Baptisme Thirdly He supposeth that those whose parents are unknowne are in charity to be accounted Christians when there is not just cause of presuming the contrary But howsoever this might carry some shew of reason with it in such places where all the inhabitants professe religion and are joyned to some Church yet in such a place as Amsterdam how can a man presume otherwise then the contrary of many that may be offered to Baptisme Fourthly He professeth that a difference must be put betweene the infants of those who in some sort by profession belong to the Church yet doe openly breake the covenant of God and the children of others in the manner of their admittance to Baptisme viz that for the former sort what is required by the Covenant and wanting in them must be supplyed by others And for this he giveth two Reasons 1. Because a distinction must be observed in all holy things betweene the cleane and uncleane 2. Because else the ordinances of God cannot be preserved from all pollution For these reasons he doeth not allow the Baptisme of excommunicates unlesse they have fit suretyes to undertake for their education nor of bastards unlesse their parents have professed their repentance or other godly persons will take upon them the care of their education nor of papists unlesse they be presented by fit suretyes who have power over thē for theire education But is any such care taken any such course observed about the admission of such to Baptisme in Amsterdam Thirdly Mr. Attersoll shall shut up this discourse of times Of the Sacram of Bapt. 2. booke ch 6 whom the Reader may suspect to favour this custom if something be not noated by us to prevent mistakes Now howsoever he may seeme to be some what large in his judgement this way and to yeeld more then either Mr. Beza or Dr. Ames have done in this point it may be more then himselfe would have done if he had fully understood the disorder against which we testifye yet the limitations and cautions which he propoundeth doe discover the evill of that practise concerning which the present question is P. 218 For 1. he denyeth that the infants of Turkes or Iewes may be baptised against the liking and good will of their parents But it is very possible and probable that some such may be offered to Baptisme by any that have stollē them or for some other reason for ought the minister knoweth or demandeth in that place P. 219. 2. In the case of the children of impaenitent persons he supposeth two things without which his plea for their Baptisme falleth 1. That they are so borne in the Church and of it that the Church may be said to be as it were their Mother 2. That they are in the Covenant in regard of their Elders of whom they discend as the Iewes were in Abraham though their next parents were wicked P.