But for that he is not onely a false prophet and a traitor to the truth that teacheth false doctrine but as well he that knoweth the truth and either for feare of death or desire of life wil not expresse the same to the world And for that not onely the author of any euill or mischiefe is giltie of offence before God But also he that might vy discouerie therof preuent the same and yet either will not or for feare of death dares not And for that as the olde prouerbe saith Qui â—acet consentire videtur he that concealeth the truth seemeth to consent to errors for these and the like causes I will laye downe vnto you some such corruptions and abuses as seeme to be inormous and stande in neede of reformation omitting in the meane time to speake perticularly of all for that they be innumerable vntill I see how these fewe will be brouked of them For it is a point of good physicke you knowe to sée how the former meate receiued into the stomacke will be digested and concocted before we receiue anye more into the same Theod. You say very well Giue me leaue then by your patience to aske you such questions as I thinke conuenient for my further instruction that by your good means I knowing the truth may praise God in you and also haue iust occasion to giue you thanks for the same Theod. Aske what you thinke good in Gods â—ame and I will doe the best that I can to resolue you in any thing that you shall demand Theod. Then this shal be my first demand Be the churches congregations assemblies there distincted into particulars as into parishes and precincts one exempt from another or are they dispersed here and there abroad without any order exemption or limitation of place at all Amphil. Euerie particular church congregation assemblie or conuenticle is diuided one from another and distincted into parishes and preâ—incts which seuerall precincts and parishes are so circumâ—ired and limited about with bounds and marks as euerie one is knowne of what parish he is and vnder whose charge he liueth So that euerie shepheard knoweth his flocke euerie pastor his shéepe And againâ— euerie flocke knoweth his shepheard and euerie shéepe his pastor verie orderlie and well in my simple iudgement Theod. Doe you allow then of this partition of churches and of one particular congregation from another Amphil. Yea trulie It is not amisse but a verie good order for thereby euerie pastor doth knowe his owne flocke euery shepheard his owne shéepe which without this diuision could not be Besides that we read that euen in the apostles daies who writ to particular churches themselues as to the Rom. Corint Thes. Phil c. in the daies of Christ in the times of the prophets before Christ churches assemblies and congregations were euer distincted one from another diuided into seueral flocks companies and charges So that although they had not the name of this word parish amongst them yet had the thing ment thereby in effect Theod. Then it followeth by your reason that there are infinite churches in Dnalgne and I haue learned out of the book of God that there is but one true church and faithful spouse of Christ vpon the earth How reconcile you these two places Amphil. Uerie well For although there be infinite particular churches congregations and assemblies in the world yet doe they all make but one true church of God which being diuided in time and place is notwithstanding one church before God being meÌ„bers of the mystical body of Christ Iesus felow members one of another so as they can neuer be diuided neither froÌ„ themselues nor froÌ„ their head Christ. Theod. Who doe you constitute the head of the vniuersall church of Christ vppon earth Christ Iesus the pope or the prince Amphil. Christ Iesus whose the bodie is must néeds â—e is the onely true head of the vniuersall church Then next vnder him euerie christian prince in his kingdom And as for the pope he is head ouer the malignant church the church of the diuel and not of Christ Iesus No he is so far from being head ouer the vniuersal church of Christ that he is no true member of the same but rather the childe of perdition the first borne of satan a diuell incarnate and that man of sin euen Antichrist himselfe that must be destroied with the breath of Gods mouth Theod. By whom be these particular churches and congregatious gouerned and ruled Amphil. By bishops pastors and other inferiour officers Theod. Do you shut out the prince then fâ—ont gouerning the church Amphil. No God forbid For take awayâ— Brachium seculare The lawfull power and gouernement of the temporal magistrate from the regiment of the church and ouerthrow the church altogither And yet notwithstanding the necessitie hereof the dooting anabaptists and brainesicke papists haue most deuilishly denied the same The anabaptists denie most absurdly the authoritie of the magistrate altogither The papists seing themselues conuinced by the manifest worde of GOD denye not their authority absolutely but that their authority extendeth to the gouernement of the church forsooth they vtterly denie hereby exempting themselues and plucking away their neckes from vnder the yooke of christian obedience due vnto migistrates contrarie to the expresse word of our sauiour Christ and his apostles who saith Omnis anima subdita sit potestatibus supereminentibus Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but of God And therefore they are to be obeyed as the ministers of God of all whatsoeuer Theod. Well than I gather thus much that euery king prince or potentate is supreame head next vnder God ouer the church of GOD dispersed through his kingdomes and dominions is not this true Amphil Uerie true And therefore that antichrist of Rome hath plaide the traitor a long while both to Christ Iesus and all christian kings in arrogating and vsurping to be supreame head ouer all the world Whereas indeed he being a greasie priest smered prelate hath no more authority than other oiled shauelings haue nor so much neither and yet that authoritie is but ouer the maligant church of antichrist and not of Christ Iesus I beseech the Lord therefore to breake of that power to grind in peces that stumbling blocke of offence and to wipe off the heads of that monstrous hidra so as neuer any mo may growe thereof againe Theod. Seeing you say that euerie prince is supreame head ouer the church of God within his dominions what authoritie therfore assign you to the prince to execute in the church Amphil. It is the office and dutie of a prince not only to see elected sent forth called good able sufficient pastours for the instruction of the church but also to see that good orders constitutions rites be established and duely performed that the worde be preached the sacraments truely ministred excommunication discipline and
true repentance for his sinnes to fore committed liue for euer in ioye both of body soule whereas if exhortations had not bin he might happily haue died irrepentant or vtterly desperate to his euerlasting destruction for euer Yea it is coÌ„monly seene that those who could neuer be wonne to Christ Iesus all the daies of their life before yet at the last howre they are soone recouered Therefore ought not the pastors to neglecte their duties therein but warely and carefully to watche ouer their flocks night and day without ceasing that wheÌ„ the great shephard of the sheepe commeth he may rewarde them with the immercessible crowne of eternall glory And thus much be it spoken hereof Theod. In whome doth the election of the minister or pastor consist in the church onely or in the bishops Amphil. I tolde you before as I remember that the church might examine the life the conuersation and disposition of him or them whome they would haue to be their pastor and finding the same good to present him or them to the bishops or elders to whome it apperteineth to examine for his sufficiencie in knowledge and dexteritie in teaching and handling the word of God and finding him a man furnished with gifts and graces necessary for such a high vocation to call him lawfullie according to the word of God and so to sende him foorth into the Lords haruest as a faithfull laborer therein Theod. But some are of opinion that the churches themselues of their owne absolute and plenarie power ought to choose their pastor and not bishops Ampil The churches haue no further power in the election of their pastor than as I haue told you that is to iudge of his conuersation integritie of life referring the whole action besides to the bishops and elders For if the churches should elect their minister or pastor of themselues absolutely besides that it would bréed confusion for some would choose one some another some this and some that neuer contenting theÌ„selues with any the church should doe that also which were directly contrarie to the word of God For certeine it is the church hath no absolute power by the word of God to elect their pastor to choose him to cal him orderly in such forme as is appointed in the word obseruing all kinde of rites ceremonies orders belonging thereto Neither was it euer séene that any church did euer practise the same For in the dais of the apostles did the churches any more than choose foorth certeine persons of a tried conuersation presented theÌ„ to the apostles And did not the apostles then whom our bishops now in this action do represent lay their hands vpon them approue them after triall had of their sufficiencie in knowledge and sent them forth into the Lords vineyard The churches laid not their hands vpon them or as some call it consecrated them not nor vsed not any other ceremoniall rite in the election of them as the apostles did But as I grant that the church for som cause and in soâ— respects is not to be excluded froÌ„ a consultatiue voyce as before or from being made priuie at al to the election of their pastor so I denie that the church may absolutely of his owne plenarie power cal their pastor all ceremonies and rites thereto belonging obserued for that is to be don and executed of the bishops elders and not of the churches consisting of lay men and for the most part rude and vnlearned Theod. What say you to a seigniorie or eldership were it not good for the state of the church at this day that y e same were established in euery congregation as it was in y e apostles daies Amphil. The seueral estates and conditions of the apostolicall churches and of ours al circumstances duly considered are diuers and much different one from another and therefore though a seigniorie or eldership then in euerie particular church were necessarie yet now vnder christian princes it is not so néedfull The churches then wanted christian princes and magistrates to gouerne the same and therefore had néed of some others to rule in the church But God be thanked we haue most christian kings priâ—ces and gouernors to rule and gouerne the church therfore we stand in lesse néed of the other And yet notwithstanding I grant that a seigniorie in euery congregation were to be wished if it could be brought to passe yet cannot I perceiue but that it would rather bring confusion than reformation considering the state of the church at this day For in the apostles times when seigniories were ordeined we read not of any shires dioces or precincts where bishops and ecclesiasticall magistrates might exercise their authoritie and gouernement as now they doe and therefore there being neither bishops ecclesiasticall nor ciuill magistrates as we haue now it was necessarie that the seigniories shuld be ordeined But now we hauing al these things stand not in such necessitie of them as the churches in the apostles daies did Besides the institution of elders was but meere ceremoniall and temporall and therefore not to continue alwaies neither ought the necessitie thereof to binde all churches Neither doe I thinke that all churches are bound for euer to one forme of externall gouernement but that euery church may alter and change the same according to the time and present state therof as they shal see the same to make for the glorie of God and the common peace of the church Theod. What say you to deacons Is their office necessarie or not in the church of God at this day Amphil. Their office which was to make collections for the poore to gather the beneuolencies and contributions of euerie one that were disposed to giue and to sée the same bestoed vpon the poore and néedie members of the church is very necessarie and without doubt ought to be continued for euer But yet is not the church tied to their names onely but to their office Which office is executed by honest substantiall men called Churchwardens or the like chosen by the consent of the whole congregation to the same end and purpose who daily gathering the friendlye beneuolencies of the churches bestow or sée the same bestowed vpon the poore and indigent of the same church which was the greatest part of the deacons duties in the apostles daies So that albeit wee haue not the name we yet hold their office in substance and effect Theod. What is your iudgement ought there to be any bishops in the churches of christians Amphil. To doubt whether there ought to be bishops in the churches of chrâ—stians is to doubt of the truth it selfe For is there not mention made of their names dignities functions and callings almost in euery chapter of the new testament in all the epistles of Paule of Peter of Iohn of Iude and of all the rest Besides that did not the apostles themselues constitute and ordeine bishops and elders and doe they not woonderfully commende the
ecclesiasticall censures orderly executed to the honor of God and benefit of his church But if it be said that these thinges are to bee executed of the ecclesiasticall persons onely I answere true it is but if the ecclesiasticall magistrate be negligent secure slouthfull and carelesse about the execution hereof as who seeth not some be than ought the prince to shew his authoritie in commanding and inioining them to doe their office Besides this it is the office of the prince to see all kind of sinne as well in the church men themselues as in all others of the church seuerely punished And though I grant the prince to haue the soueraigntie and primacie ouer the church of GOD within his dominions yet my meaning is not that it is lawfull for the prince to preach the word to minister the sacramentes or to execute the sentence of excommunication and other ecclesiasticall discipline and censures of the church but as before to see them done of them to whom it apperteineth For saith the apostle nemo sumat sibi honorem nisi qui legittime vocatus fuerit vt fuit Aaron And againe vnusquisque in ea vocatione qua vocatus est maneat apud deum But in times past the papists bare the worlde in hande that no temporall power whatsoeuer coulde nor ought not to meddle wyth the clergie and therefore made they vassals of most christian Princes Yea that pernicious antichrist of Rome in those daies of ignorance hath not béene ashamed to make Kings Queenes Emperours Dukes Lords and all other how honorable or noble soeuer his lackeis his pages his horsekeepers and compelled them to hold his stirups to leade his horse and to prostrate themselues before him whilest he trod vpon their neckes But God be praised this great antichrist is discouered to all the world and his shame so laid open as euery childe iustlie laugheth him to scorne Theod. You said before that the churches there were gouerned by bishops and pastors how by them Amphil. The bishops are graue ancient and fatherlie men of great grauitie learning and iudgement for the most part constituted by the Prince ouer a whole country or prouince which they call their dioces These graue fathers hauing authoritie aboue all other of the ministerie in their dioces do substitute vnder them in euerie particular church a minister or ministers according to the necessitie of the same And thus doeth euery bishoppe in hys owne dioces thorow out the whole realme So that no church how small soeuer but it hath the truth of Gods word and of his sacraments truly deliuered vnto it Theod. Are those preaching prelates that the bishops do place in euerie congregation or else reading ministers Amphil. It were to be wished that all were preaching prelates and not reading ministers only if it could be brought to passe but though all be not preachers yet the most part be God be praised therefore Theod. Be any readers onlie and not preachers that is a great abuse For I am persuaded that he that cannot preach ought not to supplie a place in the church of God to read onlie how say you Amphil. It is no good reason to say bicause all ought to be preachers that therefore readers are not necessarie But indeed I am of this iudgement with you that whoso can but read onelie and neither is able to interpret preach expound nor explane the scriptures nor yet to refell and conuince the aduersarie nor to deliuer the true sense and meaning of the scriptures ought not to occupie a place in the church of God as the pastor thereof For God commandeth that the pastors be learned saieng Labia sacerdotum custodiant voritatem ediscant populi verbum dei ex ore eorum Let the lips of the priests preserue knowledge and let the people learne the truth out of their mouthes And therefore those that haue not this dexteritie in handling the worde of God they are not sent of God neither are they Christs vicegerents or pastors to instruct his flocke To such the Lord saith They rule but not by me they run but I sent them not they crie thus saith the Lord whereas hee neuer spake it These are those woll shepheards and dumbe dogs of whom speaketh the prophet that are not able to barke against sinne And therefore I beseech the Lord to remooue them and place able and sufficient pastors ouer his church that GOD may be glorified and the church edified in the truth Theod. Bare reading I must néeds say is bare féeding but what then Better it is to haue bare feeding than none at all Amphil. Uerie true And therefore are not they more scrupulous than they ought more curious than néedes and more precise than wise that bicause they cannot haue preaching in euerie church doe therefore contemne reeding as not necessarie This is as though a man should despise meane fare bicause he cannot come by better whereas I thinke it is better to haue meane fare then none at all or as though a man bicause he cannot come by the carnell at the first will therefore caâ— awaie both the nut and the carnell It were good as saith the apostle that all could prophesie that is that all could preach and expound the truth but bicause that al haue not the gift is therfore reading naught And therefore a sort of nouatians lately sprong vp haue greatly faulted herein in that they hold that no reading ministers only ought to be permitted in the church of God as though as I say because a man can not haue daintie fare therefore it is good to haue none at all But to be plaine as I will not defende a dumbe reading ministerie only so I will not condemne it for necessities sake when otherwise euery place cannot be sufficiently furnished at the first with good and sufficient men as it ought Theod. But it is thought that there are inow able men in the vniuersities and elsewhere to furnish euery particular church with a preaching minister Amphil. Truely I thinke there are so if they were sought for preferred but alas those that are learned indeed they are not sought for nor promoted but the vnlearned for the most part somtimes by frendship somtime by mony for they pay wel for their orders I heare say and somtimes by gifts I dare not say bribes are intâ—uded This maketh manie a good schooler to languish and discourageth not a fewe from goyng to their bookes Whereby learning greatlie decaieth and barbarisme I feare me will ouerflow the realme if spéedie remedie be not had herein Theod. As farre as I can gather by your speeches there is both a reading and a preaching ministerie whether doe you prefer before the other Amphil. I preferre the preaching ministerie before a reading ministerie only and yet the reading ministerie if the other can not be had is not therefore euill or not necessarie Theod. But tell me this If there might a preaching ministerie be gotten ought not the reading
excellencie of their calling inferring that those that rule well are worthye of double honour Whereby appeereth that bishops are not onlye needefull in the churches of christians but also most needfull as without whome I can scarcely see how the state of the church could well bee maintained And therefore those that contend that they are not necessarie in a Christian Common wealth shewe them selues either wilfull waiwarde or maliciouslye blinde and striuing to catch their owne shadowes they labour all in vaine giuing manifest demonstration of their more than extreame follie to all the world Theod. Well Let it bee granted as it cannot bee denied that they are moste necessarie yet in this I would verie gladlye bee absolued whether they maye lawfullye vendicate or challenge to themselues superioritie and primacie aboue their fellowe brethren of the ministerie or no for some holde that there ought to bee equalitie in the ministerie and no superioritie at all how say you Amphil. They doe not vendicate or challenge anie superioritie or primacie to themselues ouer their brethren in respect of their common callings and functions for therein the poorest pastor or shepheard that is is coequall with them they themselues will not denie but in respect of dignitie authoritie and honour which the prince and church doth bestowe vpon them So that the superioritie that they haue ouer their brethren resteth in dignitie authoritie and honour which it hath pleased the prince to dignifie them withall aboue their felowe brethren and not in calling function or office for therein they are all coequall togither But if any curious heâ—â—s should demand why the prince should aduance any of the cleargie to such high dignitie authoritie and primacie aboue his brethren I answer as it is in the Gospell Is thine eâ—e euill bicause the prince is good May not the prince giue his gifts his dignities and promotions to whom he will And if the prince of his roiall clemencie be minded to bestowe vpon his subiect any dignity or promotion is it christian avedience to refuse the same Nay is it not extréeme ingratitude towards his prince Besides who seeth not that if there should be no superioritie I meane in dignitie authoritie only the same honorable office or calling would growe into contempt For is it not an old saieng and a true Familiaritas siue aequalitas parit contemptum Familiaritie or coequallitie doth euer bring contempt And therefore take awaye authoritie and honor from the magistrates either temporall or spirituall and ouerthrowe the same altogither If authoritie should not be dignified as well with glorie and externall pompe the better to grace the same to shew forth the maiestie thereof would it not soone grow to be dispised vilipended and naught set by And therefore the more to innoble and set foorth the excellencie of this honorable calling of a bishop hath the prince the churches thought it good to bestow such authoritie dignitie and honor vpon them and not for anie other cause whatsoeuer And therefore seeing it is the pleasure of the prince to bestowe such dignitie authoritie and honor vpon them me thinke any sober christians should easely tolerate the same Theod. Yea but they saie that there â—ught to be no superioritie in the ministerie bringing in the example of the apostles themselues amongst whom was no superiority inequalitie or principallitie at all Amphil. Indeede amongst the apostles there was no superioritie I grant neither in office calling authoritie nor otherwise but al were equall in ech respecte one to another But what than The apostles were sent to preach to the churches and not to gouerne and therefore they choose elders to rule the same but our bishops are as well to gouerne and to rule the churches in some respects as to preach the worde And therfore though there were no superioritie amongst the apostles yet maye there be amongst our bishops in respect of gouerment dignitie and authoritie And wheras they saie there ought to be no superioritie in the ministerie at all I answeare no more there is in respect of euerie ones function forme of calling and office to preach the word and minister the sacraments But in respect of gouernement authoritie dignitie and honor there is superioritie and I am perswaded so ought to be In which opinion vntill they haue disprooued it I meane Christ willing to persiste Theod. But they adde further and say that it strengtheneth the hands of the aduersaries the papists For saie they the papists may as well affirme that christian emperours kings and potentates and euen the churches of God themselues haue giuen to the pope that authoritie that dignitie and honor which he hath or claimeth aboue his fellowe brethren as well as the bishop may say so Besides it confirmeth the opinion of soueraigntie ouer at the churches in the world For say they may not the pope saie that he receiued plenarie power to be head ouer all the world from christian kings emperours and potentates as well as the bishops may say we receiued this power to be superior to our brethren from christian kings and princes Now whether these reasons be a like I would gladly know Amphil. They be verie vnlike and so vnlike as there is no equallitie comparison or semblance betwixt them For first of all let theÌ„ note that the pope nor any of his complices and adherents doe not holde nor pretende to holde no they dare as well eate off their fingers as to say so for then were their state in a wofull case that their archdiuell their god the pope I should say doth receiue his power either of authoritie superioritie primacie souereigntie or head ouer all the world from any earthly creature but immediately from God himselfe But whereas hée sayth that hee receiued his power of superioritie ouer all the worlde from no earthie creature but from God himselfe it is manifest that he receyued it neyther from God for his vsurped power is contrarie to God and to his words in euerie respecte nor from anie christian man but from the Deuill himselfe whose vicegerent or Liefetenant generall in his kingedome of impietie he shewes himselfe to be Than let them note that although hee pretended to holde his vsurped authoritie from man as hee doth not yet is there no man howe mightie an Emperour King Prince or Potentate soeuer that is able proprio iure to giue him authoritie ouer all the worlde without great and manifeste iniurye done to all other Princes as to giue the soueraigntie or chieftie of their Landes from them to a straunger But a Prince may lawfullye bestowe and geue to his subiectes anie prerogatiue title authoritie office function gouernment or superioritie of anie thing within his owne dominions and kingdomes but no further he maye not And therefore this reason of theirs holdeth not that the Pope maye as well arrogate the one to himselfe as the Byshops may the other to themselues Theod. Séeing now it cannot be denied but that