Saint Iohn saith to all the Christians 1. Iohn 4. Trie the spirites whether they be of God By your saying the people should not be able to trie them and so he would teach them that which did not belong vnto them Pa. What a trimme colour you set vppon the matter and how pretily ye can shift but I wil lay open your subtiltie To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached you alledge the saying of Christ My sheepe heare my voyce c. I pray ye Sir if a man should demand of you whether he meaneth that this shall be immediatly or not and whether when he saith they shal be all taught of God doth he exclude the ministery of men or not I know ye will say the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when those which he hath appointed to be shepheards do vtter his doctrine Ye will also say that although God teach yet he doth it by the ministery of men Then I answer that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Christ from the Pope who is their great shepheard vnder Christ God doth teach them by him they are to sticke and cleaue to his determination of themselues they cannot iudge but they must doe it by him he must tell them which is the woolfe and which is the false Prophet they cannot tell which commeth with the true spirit or which spirit is of God but as he doth direct them And for this cause we say still that ye haue not the true Catholike faith nor the scriptures on your side nor the true sense because ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them Pro. All that I haue brought is but a colour and a prety shift and easily disclosed with one poore distinction of mediate immediate But I pray ye Sir how doth this hang together the voyce of the true shepheard is heard when it is vttered by men therefore the way to know it is by men God teacheth by men therfore God teacheth to discerne the spirits by men or if it be so must this needs follow that the Pope his Cleargy are those men which must do the déed This is a strange thing Christ Iesus S. Paule S. Peter S. Iohn others do foretell the people of false prophets the only way and remedy to auoyde them as you say is to hang vpon the Pope yet none of all these or any other hath so much as once noted it or tell the poore people by whose direction they might be safe in so extreame danger Pa. There was no neede so long as Christ or his Apostles liued to tell them so for they taught them this thing or how can you tell they did not they might though it be not written is all written which they did teach Pro. Here is mighty strong geare this were able to set vp a Pope if he were thrown down to reuiue him againe if he were hanged No maruell forsooth Christ nor his Apostles did not tell the people that the Pope and Church of Rome should be their refuge when heretickes shold séeke to seduce thē because there was no need so long as they liued this were somwhat if they had told only of the false teachers of their time but when they foretel the great dangers mischiefs which should be in the Church lōg after their dayes being aboue all things most chary of the safety of the same this were very absurd Acts. 20. not once to giue any note of the surest remedy S. Paul saith to the elders of the Church of Ephesus that he did know that after his departure there shold enter in grieuous wolues not sparing the flock there shold rise of thēselues which shold speake peruerie things and draw disciples after thē yet he speaketh of no remedy but that which was banished in your Church namely careful diligēt teaching for he saith therfore watch be mindful c. S. Peter saith as there were in times past false prophets amōg the people so shal there be false teachers amōg you 2. Pet. 2. and afterward he sheweth this remedy not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire or successor but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes and by the Apostles of Christ Saint Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. little children it is the last houre ye haue heard that Antichrist shal come I say there are already many Antichristes in the world and a litle after he telleth them how they shall escape the danger but saith he you haue receiued an annointing what from the Pope or his greasie oyle no but from the holy one and know all things Againe ye neede not saith he that any man teach ye but as the annoynting do teach ye Christ Iesus foretelleth Math. 24. that there should rise false Prophets and do such wonders that if it were possible euen the elect should be deceiued but that as his words do most plainely shew is vnpossible and why doth he say because I will leaue a vicar and as many as hang vppon his sleeue shall be safe not so but because God hath chosen them for he doth keepe them Iohn 10. and none is able to take them out of his hand He saith in another place Beware of false Prophetes which come vnto you in shéepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues and whereby shall men know them Math. 7. He sayeth by their fruits But how know we whether he did tell them so or not he might though it be not written alacke alacke Pa. I know your sect make but a scoffe at the traditions of the Apostles which were not cōmitted to writing but let that go it is but a folly to perswade those to beleeue which haue denied the faith and despise the Catholike Church Pro. The Pope of Rome hath a great chest ful of traditions which S. Peter did not put in writing but he hath whosoeuer doth not beleeue these hath denied the faith dispiseth the Catholike Church This is not your best way your best way is to stand to this that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil so your traditions shall stand sure though they be flat against the word of God But I am content to let this go also and to returne to that which we had in hand and because I would haue the matter made a little more plaine I will demaund a question or two at your hands Was there not a Church in the world before the cōming of Christ Pa. Who doth deny that the Iewes were the Church and people of God Pro. Then tell me further whether had they the word of God or not to instruct them and to ground their faith vpon Pa. They had the bookes of Moses they had the bookes of the Prophets they were bidden to heare them Pro. Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vnto
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
haue fulfilled all those things which S. Paul and S. Iohn in the Reuelation haue written of him as to gape after another The Pope must néedes bee bee not simply because he hath the highest seat in the Church but because he hath so high a seat in the Church as God neuer appointed to any Antichrist should be the highest of all where will ye finde any that was aboue the Pope or that euer did chalenge such authoritie as he had for certaine hundreth yeares But ye say when I haue proued that the Pope doth boast himselfe to be God then I shall say somewhat It is indéede such a somewhat as may of it selfe suffice if there were no more to cause all wise men to see that he is the man of sinne and vtterly to renounce him Pa. When ye haue done that I also will recant and forsake him because I am sure the spirit of the diuell is in that man which maketh himselfe God and so I dare promise for all that be of our side Pro. Ye make a double promise one for your selfe and another for your fellowes that if the Pope can be proued to haue boasted or shewed himselfe to be God ye will recant and forsake him But I am sure yee promise much more then ye can performe I cannot trust that which ye make for your self much lesse when ye promise for all that be on your side Ye are blinded and hardened as the Scribes and Pharisies were they said if he bee Christ let him come downe from the crosse and wee will beléeue in him Matth. 27. Could they or would they haue beléeued in him if he had come downe from the crosse Why then did they not beléeue when he was risen from the dead which was a thing farre greater then to come downe from the crosse When I sée ye recant I will beléeue it otherwise I will not because there is a great number of ye which doe wrangle and cauill séeke shifts against those things which your consciences do tell ye are true so that ye do willingly and wilfully blinde your selues and so blind others And thus while ye go about to deceiue others ye are deceiued But let vs come to the matter It may be ye looke that I should go about to proue that the Pope hath taken vpon him to be called God or to bee taken for God and not man I doe not meane so Pa. No ye cānot tell what ye meane I thought this would be the end now ye will not goe about to proue that the Pope would bee called God or be taken not to be a man This is the sleight of ye all to make great crakes and when ye are to come to your proofe then to winde out I may keepe my promise well enough you haue released me of it I would like it well if ye would confesse plainlie and shame the diuell that ye haue made promise of more then ye are able to doe and that ye haue done great iniurie vnto the holy father and haue slandered him Pro. I haue done euen as much iniurie to the holy father and haue slaundered him euen as much as a man doth slaunder and iniurie the diuell when he saith he is the father of lyes I should not shame the diuell in retracting that which I haue said and by saying that I haue promised more then I am able to doe but I should please him very well For although his owne credit is so far spent that he should vtterly lose his labour in séeking to recouer it yet he séeketh to vphold the credit and estimation of his vicar by that meanes doth maintaine his kingdome I haue vsed no sleight nor am gone from ought that I did promise to proue For doth it follow that because the Pope doth confesse he is a man and taketh not the name of God therfore he doth not boast himself to be God You are a very simple Logitian which from deniall of some part wil deny the whole Pa. What is the whole if this be not neither to take the name nor yet to esteeme himselfe to bee the thing Neither to bee called God nor yet to thinke himselfe to be God If ye can shew any other way whereby hee may shew himselfe to bee God let me heare it Pro. He doth sit in the temple of God boasting himselfe that he is God when he challengeth to himselfe the power authoritie which doth belong onely to God and to no creature this power he hath vsurped many waies Tell me is not this to boast himselfe to be God Pa. I grant indeed that whosoeuer doth challenge the power and authoritie to himselfe which doth belong to God onely doth make himselfe God But what are ye the neerer for this so long as ye shall neuer bee able to shew any way whereby the Pope hath vsurped any such power although ye say hee hath done it many waies hee hath his power giuen him of God and yet neuer the power to be as God Pro. I might with trauell make a large discourse with many proues to shew that he hath vsurped the highest authoritie but I will contēt my self to shew it in some things which are knowne very well euen vnto the simple Is not God onely Lord ouer our faith and ruler ouer our consciences to binde the same Hath not God onely power to forgiue sinnes To shut heauen and to open hell to saue and to destroy Is not God the onely lawgiuer is not Christ our onely Doctor how then can the Bishop of Rome challenge these things to himselfe and yet not shew himselfe that he is GOD If this be not much more to make himselfe GOD when hée taketh vpon him Gods power then to take the name let al men iudge Pa. The Pope doth take no Lordship ouer the conscience nor doth not binde them further then he hath authoritie giuen him The lawes which he maketh are made by the holy Ghost which is in him and therefore there is but one lawgiuer For ye may euen as well say Moses gaue lawes therefore there is more then one lawgiuer for looke how he gaue lawes so doth the Pope Hereby euery man may see that ye reason very strongly when by making lawes yee would proue an equalitie with God then all the Apostles and Prophets were equall with God And so I may say for the rest Pro. God neuer gaue any such authoritie to any man If the Pope had it giuen him it was by the Dragon as S. Iohn sayth Reuel 13. which gaue him his seate and great authoritie Ye say I reason strongly when I say the Pope doth make lawes to binde mens consciences therfore the Pope maketh himselfe God and likewise maketh that there is more then one lawgiuer For say you by this reason Moses all the Apostles and Prophets should be equall with God because they gaue lawes But as they did it by the holy Ghost so doth the Pope and so God is still the
sayd Thou séest what iniuries they doe me She said Son temper thy wrath tarie a little I haue a seruant a noble fighter against vices he shal run ouer al vanquish thē vnto thée And I shal giue vnto him another seruant to help the shal fight as he doth And our Lord said I am appeased But I would sée who they be Then she shewed him S. Dominike and S. Francis and he praised them Here the blessed Lady did helpe at a pinch or else all had bin marred These her two Apostles which shée did sende forth euen the two Friers Saint Dominike and S. Francis were woorth all the twelue Apostles of Christ There were certaine Ladies heard S. Dominike preach which had bin seduced by heretikes which knéeled down at his féete and told him their case prayed him to helpe them He had them tarry a little and they should see what Lord they had serued Anon they saw spring out of the middle of them a cat right foule and horrible which was bigger then a great dog which had great flaming eyes a broad tongue and bloody she had a short tayle out of which issued a terrible stink She turned her about among the Ladies a while and afterward mounted vp by the bell rope into the stéeple and went away leauing a foule stinke behind her Thus were these good Ladies deliuered by holy S. Dominike After S. Dominike was dead he healed many raysed vp sundry from death The blessed Virgin S. Mary might doe the Pope now a great good turne to giue him two such as Dominike and Francis and it may be if he beg hard and call lowde enough she will heare him Pa. Goe too you haue these things out of the Legend who did euer allow it to be canonicall What should we regard what is spoken there Ye may be better occupied Pro. If it were not allowed why did Frier Iohn of Vignay translate it out of Latin into English Why had it this price set vpon it to excell all other bookes as far as gold doth excel all other mettals And therefore is called Legenda Aurea that is to say Golden Legends The festiuall which was read vpon Saints daies in the church doth fetch as many authorities out of the Legend as out of the Scriptures I perceiue you are loth to heare any further therefore I will tell the lesse What say ye to that good Lady which was so deuout in the seruice of the blessed Virgin and yet at a time vpon the purification her Priest was from home so that she could not haue Masse Neuerthelesse she went into her Chappel and praied to the blessed Virgin so long vntill shée fell on sléepe At the last she saw a great companie of goodly Virgins and one glorious Virgin aboue the rest She saw also one come in with a bundle of candles She saw a priest goe to Masse with two Deacons which were Laurence and Vincent The priest was Christ Euery one had a candle giuen them light and so had she two yong Angels began the introite of the Masse the Angels bare the Tapers before the priest all the virgins did sing the Masse When the offering came euery one brought their candle and they stayed for this woman which did not come with hers the great Ladie sent to her two times and yet she would not come She sent the third time to pray her to offer her candle or else to take it from her She would not then the messenger laid hold of the candle he pulled and she pulled so long that the candle was betwéene them pulled in péeces he had one end and she another and withall shée did awake and found the péece of candle in her hand Then shée did know certainly shée had heard Masse and thanked God and our blessed Lady Surely they did her wrong for they should haue awaked her first and then haue bid her offer her candle If I had béen as this Lady I would haue made much of that péece of candle For it is like that some Chaunler in heauen made it For Christ the Angels occupie candles whensoeuer they say Masse If I should tell all the tales of holy S. Anthonie which fought with a number of diuels of good S. Patrike which in Ireland did finde out Purgatorie of pitifull S. Francis of chast Saint Hagnes which yet was so gentle to be wooed that at diuers times she would holde forth her finger to receiue a ring Indéede I doe not remember that she did receiue any but of priests by which it doth appeare she loued them well If I say I should tell all of these and a number moe I cannot tell whether you Papists might be iudged the greater liers for deuising or I the greater foole for rehearsing To bée short he that will come to your dunghill hée can light no where amisse dig where hée will he shall finde it spade déep Let him come with his dungcart as oft as hee will he shall soone fill it I suppose the diuell hath well emptied his bags among ye Pa. I told ye I haue nothing to do with those things if yee can shew any forgeries among vs now the things which are past wee cannot iudge of them Pro. That which is bred in the bone will not out of the flesh Yee haue it so naturally in ye to lye that ye cannot leaue it Ye are not ashamed to falsifie the Scriptures the ancient writers and Councels ye are not ashamed to deuise and spread abroad foule slaunders against such men as GOD raysed vp to throw downe Antichrist Although it bée of things impossible yet tell it and a number beléeue it As for exāple a great Bishop of yours did preach in open assemblie that the Diuell came like a trimme fellow fell in loue with a mans daughter begat her with childe which was Martin Luther Is it like that the Diuell could beget children now in his old daies and yet I know it goeth for paiment among the ignorant blind papists A number of things ye deuise against Caluin Beza and others which are euen as true as that Pa. These men were so good that a man need not to deuise any thing of them he may find euen enough of that which is true and too much to be told Pro. You are not sure of it although ye affirme it Pa. Yes I am very sure of many things Pro. Did ye euer know any of these men or haue ye séene their conuersation Pa. What though I haue neuer knowne any of them nor seene their conuersation I haue heard enough and that by such as I may beleeue Pro. If that bee sufficient yee might haue heard of Christ that he had a diuell Matth. 9. and by as credible men as you haue any likewise that he was a glutton Matth. 11. and an vnmeasurable drinker of wine a friend of Publicanes and sinners Ye might haue heard many things also against S. Paul This is the equitie which
is among you Papists Some one of ye doe deuise a lye and then ye tosse it from one to another vntill at the last it hath a passeport giuen it from such credible men that it may go where it wil. But I will let this passe and come to some other of your wicked meanes by which yee labour to stay vp the rotten chayre of Antichrist I will come yet to greater and more shamefull villanies which trueth neuer néedeth because the Lord doth support her Pa. Can you finde such matters against vs and not see your selues I warrant ye that which ye doe accuse vs of is to be found in you howsoeuer ye accuse vs and excuse your selues Pro. Where can ye finde that euer the truth was maintained by periuries and breaking couenants Let a man reade and reade again among all Heathen men Turks and Iewes where shall he finde that it hath bin taken generally to be allowed that they might sweare and forsweare to deceiue and not make conscience to kéepe the oth Among you this is a principle faith is not to bee kept with heretikes Which also yee doe from time to time put in practise It is not to bee looked for that you should sticke to make lyes when yee dare publish it to the world in writing that ye may lawfully forsweare your selues and breake the faith which ye haue giuen by oth By this meanes ye haue cōmitted very horrible slaughters and cruell murthers the like whereof haue scarsely béen heard of Are these practises of God O ye bloody periured forsworne wretches Doth the holy Ghost leade men into such kind of dealing no verely it is the spirit of the father of lyes of periuries of murthers which ye are lead withall Gods spirit is the spirit of trueth hee neuer teacheth men to lye and to deale falsly and therefore those people are bewitched which think the Pope his adherēts to bee lead by the spirit of God when as they be so full of all abominable treacheries Pa. What should we meddle with these things I cannot tell how a man should perswade you to see the authoritie of the Church You iudge of all things after your owne reason I haue no delight to deale in these matters I will not say that which I could say Pro. I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in these matters It were a great deale better if they were kept close among your selues For now no man that is wise will trust ye neither vpon promise nor yet vpon oth which ye breake so often There be many goodly rules which ye deuise now secretly among your selues But what should you go about to perswade with me in these matters which am not first perswaded how great authoritie the Church hath For ye haue none other argument but the authoritie of the Church to allow these things Gods word doth curse and condemne periuries and murders committed by such treacheries To dispute out of that for the maintenance of them yee know yee shall haue but a cold suite of it It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aside and to set forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things He is of another maner power then men wéete The GOD which hath spoken in the Scriptures can doe nothing nor say nothing but trueth but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will and to say what hee list whether it bee true or false This is a mightie God he can play both fast and loose at his pleasure Let a thing bée neuer so much commended by God in the Scriptures if he say it is naught then is it naught So on the other side whatsoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill he hath power to make it good This is the cause why you say many are deceiued they looke but to the Scriptures and forget this God which hath power ouer the Scriptures Pa. If you may accuse what ye list then it were well But let vs see wherein the Pope hath challenged any such power Pro. Haue not I shewed ye already in some part as in lyes murders and periuries Will ye haue more what say ye to treasons and rebellions Doth not the Pope make it lawfull to commit treason Doth he not discharge subiects of their obedience and subiection to their Prince Doth he not giue any of them leaue to kill their Prince and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious What diuell can goe further then this Doth not God set vp Princes and hath not hee put the sword into their hands Doth not he charge men to bée subiect to obey them Doth not he say that whosoeuer doth resist them doth resist the ordinance of God and that those which doe resist do purchase to themselues damnation O ye traiterous wretches doe ye not sée that yée draw all those into damnation vnder Gods curse whom ye draw from their loue and obedience towards their Prince Let all men consider this hath a greasie balde Priest of Italie power against Gods word to giue leaue to subiects and inferiour persons in England to play the vilaines and traytors against their soueraigne prince whom God hath set ouer them for whose defence God doth require at their hands to giue their liues Shal the foule beast of Rome haue power to reward that déede in heauē which God hath threatned to punish in hell Let all the people of this land consider this and shun such filthy abominable men Some will say wherefore should wee eschew them being honest If ranke traytors be honest then are all the Iesuites Seminaries and popish priests with such as loue and harbour them to be counted honest Pa. I see more and more that I cannot preuaile by speaking and therefore I will giue ye ouer say euen what ye list I see it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke I could answere ye to the full if it might doe good Thus much I will say that it is one thing to commit treason against a prince which is godly and another thing to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince The subiects indeede may not disobey and rebell but when the prince is no right prince then they are no longer subiects What say ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges did not he slay Eglon king of Moab and that vnder colour of a message What say ye to Iehoiada the priest did not hee cause them to slay Athaliah when she had reigned certaine yeares and set vp Ioash to bee king If the priest of the law had this power how much more the priest of the Gospell Pro. Ye would giue me ouer now ye say but your traiterous heart is so full that it will not suffer ye Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people whom ye may draw to your opinion or with such as ye know to beare the same minde