so little subtilty that every body does the like almost in every occasion There remains only to examine upon what Principle those who assert these errors proceed whether upon Faith or some other Faith is a reliance upon some Authority and in our case the Authority of Christ who alone is acknowledged the Author and Revealer of all which we are to believe Wherefore of any point in question it must either be pretended that it was revealed by Christ or it cannot be pretended that it belongs to Faith and if any maintain it upon other grounds so far he acts not as a believer but as otherwise qualified Now there are in the world two principal ways by which claim is made to the Authority of Christ for that which we maintain is Faith and that wherein we do not engage his Authority neither of us say is Faith or that they act as faithful who upon reason or experiment for example maintain any thing The World hopes from the learned industry of the Royal Society the sight of many truths yet hidden from her but all their endeavours can never make Faith of them nor concern your Church in them as considerable members of it as some of them are For they go not your Church-way of Faith They look not into Scripture but Experiments and act as Learned not as Church-men What they shall discover to the World will be revealed not by Christ but by them and if any believe them they will have no Christian but society-Society-Faith Such is the case of our Church Tradition in her known method by which she pretends to the Authority of Christ If any will run upon their own heads and discourse and maintain things and never look into her Rule She can be no more concerned in their proceedings than the Church of England in those of Gresham Colledge For since Faith is that by which she is a Church and Tradition that by which she comes to Faith people must engage Faith if they will engage the Church and Tradition if they will engage her Faith Wherefore whoever goes about to prove any thing otherwise than by Tradition uses not the method to come to Faith I mean the method approved by our Church and this conclusion whether true or false neither reaches Faith nor aims at it and by consequence cannot belong to the Church or Congregation of the Faithful Now reflect a little upon your Authors and see if they go this way to work and the first thing is the consent of the present Age for Tradition signifying the consent of all Ages 't is a madness to pretend it for that which is not believed so much as by the present Do they or can they even offer at this while they see themselves contradicted by men as learned and farr more numerous While all the Universities of a great Kingdom disapprove and condemn their Doctrine and their Books are burnt in the face of the World by public Justice and the men who do this acknowledged good Catholics all the while Do they or can they pretend the consent of former Ages while they know all Antiquity agrees that for many Ages Popes were so Supreme in Spirituals that in Temporals they were Subjects Such they acknowledged themselves and as such the Emperours treated them When and how and upon what occasion they came to be temporal Princes is known to all who are knowing in History A condition by the way which he who envies them little understands or little loves the good of the Church with which 't was much worse when Popes were hindred from doing their duty by the unjust violence and oppression of powerful men amongst whom they lived Do they alledg the undoubted Testimonies of the Fathers of the Church assembled in a general Council Nothing of this appears in what you have produced The men themselves are most of yesterday All many Ages since Christ and there needs no second Argument to prove any thing that it is not Faith if it can be proved that it began in any Age since the first as these opinions plainly did But consider their Arguments They are either grounded upon some odd interpretation of Scripture as the order of Melchesedech the two Swords St Peters walking on the water and the like or else upon some deduction and reasoning as weak as the water which they mention And this methodt though per impossibile it could prove the thing true yet could never prove it to be Faith There are many things in the world which are so acknowledged to be true that they are withall acknowledged not to be Faith Was it taught by Christ Was it believed by Christians Semper ubique ab omnibus Till this appear it neither is nor can be Catholic Faith But that which I insist upon is that this method is plainly resolved into Reason and can no more engage the Church of Rome than the experimental learning of the Royal Society the Church of England The Authors you produce rely not upon the Authority of Christ testified by an uninterrupted conveyance down to us but upon the strength of their own discourses which if they be weak and fail the Church never undertook that all in her Communion should discourse strongly Neither can she herself do more then testifie of the truths delivered to her and they are such and were so delivered This testimony is all which can be expected from her as a Church speaking of what concerns us to speak of her power to make Ecclesiastical Laws and the like are no part of our case if she fail in this and either testifie that to be delivered which was not so or suppress any thing which was delivered blame her but for this that some Members in her Communion have weak Reasons or strong Passions if you blame her consider the confusion you will bring into the World which I have so much dilated before that to repeat it would be tedious here But will you have a taste of the Churches sense of these things Consider the Hymn made in the first Ages of the Church inserted since by public Authority into her solemn Office received by all the Faithful and used on the Feast of the Epiphany Non eripit mortalia qui Regna dat coelestia Can the Church which prays thus be thought to favour the deposing power Or can her sense appear more plainly than in the consent of an universal practice But let us look upon her in a Council Wickleff amongst other errors had advanced this Proposition Populares c The people may at their pleasure correct their offending Lords Con. Const Sess 8. And this amongst the rest was condemned by the Council of Constance To the same Council was offered another Article worded in this manner Quilibet Tyrannus c. Every Tyrant may and ought lawfully and meritoriously be killed by any of his Vassals or Subjects even by secret plots and subtle insinuations or flatteries notwithstanding any Oath or League made with
as against any other I could alledge that of those Popes who have gone farthest none has defined any thing concerning these matters in those circumstances which even those Divines who attribute most to them require as necessary to make it believed or ex Cathedra as they call it But I conceive it needless it seeming to me sufficiently evident by what has been alledged already that our Faith and Church are not to suffer by these exorbitancies and commonwealths can secure themselves by their own power But Friend the case is otherwise with you Your men alledge Scripture for these errors and engage your Rule of Faith and how the honest Protestant who in this case undoubtedly has the true sense of Scripture on his side can handsomely disengage his Church from a scandal to which is pretended the authority of her Rule is difficult to apprehend If people come not to their journies end who refuse to take the right road it is no wonder to any nor blame to the Guide whose office it is to shew men the right way but cannot make them follow it But your men pretend they keep the way your Church shews them to Truth and yet arrive at Error And when Error and Truth pretend both to the same Rule and that the Rule of your Church I should think your Church deeply concerned to consider by what means it may be decided which is Heresie and which Faith In short our erring men since they pretend not our Churches Rule can never fix their errors upon the Church nor advance them to Faith nor beyond the degree of opinions Yours since they pretend to the very Rule owned by you must needs till a certain way of proceeding upon that Rule or interpreting Scripture be setled render it doubtful to those who truly desire to be guided by your Rule which of the two is the doctrine of Christ and are therefore wonderfully more dangerous to the Church than ours Farther abstracting from Passion or Interest which may be equal in both ours because they have no firmer ground than their own deductions are more reclaimeable and may at any time relinquish their errors without offering violence to their Faith and Religion Yours because they pretend to your Rule of Faith are apt to mistake their misguided Fancies for Religion as we have seen in the late confusions the title of Saints appropriated to wicked men and so become fixt and unalterable in them for which reason they are also much more dangerous to the State as they were before to the Church In this inequality of cases I do not know the Church of England has proceeded so far as ours in the Council of Constance or condemned these Errors by any Authentic Censure though in my opinion it were proper for her to consider how much her Rule upon which depends her own stability is concerned in them Mean time instead of reproaching our several Churches with the errors of their several Members It were I think more to purpose I am sure more charitable to endeavour that all Errors might be taken away on both sides that by one Faith and one Baptism we may all serve our one Lord and God and reunite into one Holy and Immaculate and Glorious Church free from those spots and wrinkles which our unhappy Divisions have too too much and too long brought upon her This is what the desire to obey your commands has suggested to me in answer to your Letter You will pardon the length of it which as it is beyond my expectation so 't is beyond my power to remedy and give me leave to hope it may prevail with you not to abate either your Charity to my Religion or kindness to Your very humble Servant THE THIRD and FOURTH OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR THE GRAND Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth and the true Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of ENGLAND The other of the Church of ROME LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and Ship in St. Pauls Church-Yard MDCLXXIII FRIEND FOR all the thanks I owe you and all the Complements 't were fit I made you take this acknowledgment that you have answered beyond my expectation and this assurance that I will consider very seriously what you say and make such use of it that you shall have cause to think your labour not unprofitably spent But yet I cannot but complain of the secresie which you enjoyn me I for my part am so well satisfied of your way of writing that I cannot but think others will be so too and that this shiness of yours is injurious both to your self and the World and because unjust commands are not to be obey'd let me tell you frankly I mean not to confine your Papers to my closet They shall be seen if it please God by more Eyes then mine but yet not to fall absolutely out with you I will divide stakes and so communicate what you write that there shall be no suspition of the Writer This I promise you very faithfully and to do it with more exactness lest your name should be discovered I engage my self to conceal my own Then if John a nokes get all the praise from you the fault be upon your own Head For the rest to deal plainly with you I find my self I know not how Things will not settle with me and though out of the mouth of a good Protestant I believe what you say would have past good reason yet when I reflect you are a Papist that is if you will pardon my Freedom of a crafty insinuating Generation I have still a kind of grumbling This Papist marrs all and though I think my self as free from prejudice as other men I find t' wil not do I can not but fear being trapan'd You have I must confess said many things very well and more then I thought you had been allow'd to say but you are reserv'd still 'T is true you give Reasons for your reservedness which I can not answer but whether it be that my plain nature would have every thing as plain as my self or that curiosity be like Love where too much reason is thought blameable I could wish in this occasion you had us'd less Reason and more Freedom Speak out the whole truth man and be a good Protestant otherwise own the whole Falshood and be a Papist of the first magnitude I fear your half Catholicks are in as bad a Case as Montaltos half Sinners who shall be damn'd for not sinning enough For my part if I would be a Papist I would be a Papist to purpose Hang this motly Religion this half Rome half Geneva Faith which gets a man neither credit nor security I would be as good a Catholick as Bellarmin for his heart if I would be one and if I thought your Catholick Faith would save me I would take order mine
new For 't is not with doctrines as with fashions A new doctrine can never grow old nor an old doctrine new To fix antiquity on what was not heard of in the Church for ten ages is with the confidentest and he must trust much to his Rhetorick who goes about to perswade it In the mean time John Barclay in defence of his Father has reason to say that this leaving the common consent is not to be objected to him but to those who spring up in later ages teach against the torrent of the Ancient Church But to his Argument Of the 70 Authors which he produces out of Italy France Spain Germany and Britain and all since Greg. 7. with whom he begins a great part are Canonists many such Divines who go their way and only use their Arguments some are not for him and others plainly against him At least John Barclay says so who examines them all particularly For my part I intend not to take so much pains To read threescore and ten depositions and sift them one by one is beyond my patience A man would sooner loose an ordinary cause then carry it at the expence of so much toyl But if I mistake not satisfaction may be had at a cheaper rate The Topick is Autority and that to my apprehension is efficacious but in two cases One vvhen the point in question is beyond the reach of reason as in Mysteries of Faith which because the shortness of human understanding cannot comprehend there is no means for men to lay hold of but by relying on such an understanding as can and does Thus Religion is believ'd because much of it cannot be seen and our security is the Authority of our first Teacher God and Man who we are sure saw himself what we could not and brought good evidence that he did so And so upon the matter we see with his eyes what we cannot with our own The other case which requires Authority is from a contrary ground not from the abstruseness of the points propos'd but weakness of the understanding to which they are proposed As when I press something upon another whereof I could bring proof good enough but his dulness cannot take it Here again Authority is all the Argument which can be used If I have not credit enough to perswade him to believe me there is nothing to be done You may say if you will there is the same reason in both cases viz. Weakness of Understanding only in the first the weakness is general and extends to all mankind in the second particular and belongs but to some But which soever you say I do not remember that Authority is otherwise conclusive Wherefore this point of the Pope's Power must either be of a Nature too sublime for any understanding to reach or it cannot be prest by Authority but only upon the weak and dull I know not which of the two Bellarmin fancied when he chose this Argument but in my opinion they are wild fancies both If he thought it so sublime how came he by it himself And to what purpose does he bring so many reasons to prove what is above reason and not attainable by it There is no way to climb to such a height but by immediate steps of one to another whereof the first had it with the rest of the Mysteries of Religion from Christ himself But as this way is neither endeavoured nor pretended so it would place the point in the same degree of obligation with the belief of the Trinity Incarnation and the rest which to omit the known untruth and what else might be said would leave no excuse for communicating with those who openly disavow it Then to think all men weak and dull and none able to look upon the dazling lustre of those reasons by which the point may be prov'd and upon that account descend to Authority is as much on the bow hand on the other side and a fancy which seems hardly credible in so modest a man as Bellarmin was And yet one of the two must be sayd or I know not what place there is for Authority Of a thing which can it self be seen and to those who can see it it seems to as little purpose to talk what others say of it as if to perswade men that this ribond is green and the other blew I should spend time in numbring how many thought so when 't is but shewing the ribonds and every body can tell what their color is To my apprehension therefore the whole Topic seems improper and ill chosen Notwithstanding let us see what it will do And in the first place methinks it were convenient to take along with us what Authority means and how they ought be qualified who can pretend to it And because I intend not to make a common place of it and swell my Letter by delating farther then is necessary I shall mention but one qualification but such an one as in my opinion is very requisite viz. That those by whose authority others are to be perswaded do themselves know that to which others are to be perswaded For I observe the world is a little resty and unwilling to be led by those whom they account weak and shallow And then this Authority is an Argument which does not render the truth apparent to the eyes of those who accept it upon Authority but suppose it seen by Authority and in vertue of that sight to be believed by other folks But if it be not seen by those whose Authority is prest upon me I can not imagine what title they can pretend to Authority nor in vertue of what I can be prest to follow it For certainly if I be blind my self it is very unreasonable I should take for a guide one who is as blind as I am When one blind man leads another we know what becomes of both Now because a conclusion is not seen till it be rightly prov'd among those seventy men of Authority whom Bellarmin alleadges there must be some one or more who has severely prov'd the point in question or neither he nor any man else can say that any of them saw it If there be no full proof among them all there can be no Authority nor reason why others should take them for Guides who for any thing we know are themselves blind as well as those whom they would lead If there be shew the ribond without more ado and never amuse us with what other people say of the colour It is a much shorter and much easier way for him to produce and us to see one good proof then to stand sifting the depositions of 70 men whereof 69 perhaps speak little to the purpose And after all too this proof must needs appear at last for till it do as I come from saying there is no reason we should believe those who for ought appears know no more than we who are required to believe them But to make this matter as plain as
I can what is the reason when a man affirms a thing without proof there is so little obligation that on the contrary t is lightness to believe him I suppose because bringing no proof and by no proof I mean no sufficient proof he may for ought appears be mistaken and we with him Why then instead of one put twenty that say it or if you will a hundred or as many as Arithmetick can number and put them to bring no more proof then the single man in what is their case different from his or how am I excus'd from lightness or secur'd from error if I believe them Wherefore either produce the man who brings sufficient proof and let us see that sufficient proof of his and let alone the 69 Cyphers which stand before him or if none can be produced 't is a clear case they are altogether so many insufficient proofs and to think that number is sufficient when every particular is insufficient is to think that a great many nothings vvill make something And this is the case of Bellarmin's Authority which yet has something particular in it Of his 70 Witnesses half are either Canonists or such who professing other studies rely in this point on the Arguments of the Canonists These Arguments Bellarmin himself thinks faulty and has taken successful pains to confute Now would I fain know what great necessity there is of believing those who I know before hand have themselves no reason to believe what they tell me To offer me these is plainly to offer me error for security against error and to make me believe that I shall not be deceiv'd if I follow those who are and that the way to go right is to go after those who stray I know Bellarmin thinks them right in the main though they mistake in a circumstance for example that they think well of the power though they are out in thinking it Direct But if they miss and mistake all in the circumstance how can I know but they do so in the main 'T is plain they all mistake when they say 't is direct therefore their consent in saying a thing does not make that thing to be true wherefore neither can the other in which he thinks they say true be therefore true because they say it and this even in Bellarmin's Judgment And that he should press that on another which he does not value himself seems a little unreasonable Then for the other half who go upon other grounds then the Canonists I will take the liberty to suppose they go upon the same with Bellarmin or worse For he was too judicious a man to back good arguments and choose bad in their rooms Now what his are besides what you will find here you know by my last If any man think them good he may for me But this is clear that no number of men perswaded by these arguments can add more strength to the conclusion then those arguments give it And so we are just where we were If the Arguments be sufficient to prove the conclusion the business is done and Authority superfluous if they be not what he calls Authority is but a number of insufficient proofs or of men led by them which infufficiently proofs I am desired to take for sufficient proof And this in plain English is to desire me because those who are deceived are a great many to believe they are not deceived as if by adding black to black and laying on black enough the wall would become white I know that number generally carries with it a fair perswasion especially where the men are otherwise considerable that they are not all mistaken But of the one half of these Bellarmin assures us they actually are mistaken notwithstanding their number and whoever does not approve Bellarmin's Arguments can not but think as much of the other half Wherefore it must of necessity rest upon proof at last and this Topic of Authority might in my opinion have very well been spared For if any can see the conclusion prov'd he needs no Authority but is oblig'd in vertue of that sight to stand to what he sees though there were none in the world of thâ— same judgment with him But to those who cannot this Authority is a bare saying without proof that is no Authority However Bellarmin tryes to make it up and intitle the Church it self to the sayings of his 70 men What Doctors teach sayes he with a common consent in different times and places that the universal Church is believed to hold and teach For God therefore placed Pastors and Doctors in the Church Eph. 4. that the People should follow them as their Guides c. I think to make this Argument look any thing like to his common he should have added universal consent For if Doctors teach differently many one way and many the quite contrary I hope the Church ought not to be believed to hold and teach what both teach or if she do she must plainly be believed to hold and teach contradictories Now for Bellarmin's 70 Canon hath alledged more then twice 70 on the other side How then is it possible to find the Churches doctrine by the consent of her Doctors when they are so far from common consent that they teach direct contraries Again to universality of consent there goes universality both of time and place Bellarmin either thought of no more or could produce no more than out of the Western Church I hope he does not think the Church confin'd to the West In all controversies of Faith others and he himself uses to produce testimonies from other places We hear of S. Cyprian and S. Austin S. Basil S. Cyril S. Jo. Chrysostom Origin Tertullian c. whereof none belong to the West Can that consent be universal to which there concur none of these once so famous parts of the Church Then for time he begins with Greg. 7. and he liv'd but in the 11th age Are 10 whole ages so inconsiderable that they make nothing to universal consent These links can never hang well together that have such a gap in them nor is it possible to be believed the Church should universally teach what none of all her Doctors in ten ages mentioned Alass how little substance there is in these great words common consent and the Church But God therefore placed Pastors and Doctors that People should follow them very true But when God placed those Pastors and Doctors he put into their mouths the Doctrine which they should preach and teach So far as they deliver that doctrine they have his Authority for their warrant but no further If they will teach any other truth they may without doubt provided they can make it appear to be Truth in which case the evidence by which they can make it appear is their warrant not the Authority of God and provided farther that what they teach in this manner be neither prest by them or accepted by others as part of the
a condemnation without more ado Neither did they well know at first on what bottom to fix This Indirect came in afterwards As far as can be guest they thought because the Pope was Superiour over all Christians he might therefore come and all Christians any thine Since the business coming to be debated they cast about for waies to maintain it and the Indirect way pleases most though it be not yet well setled some thinking it as much too little for the Pope as others too much But whatever they think I fear both the one and the other is ruinous to the Church For neither can pretend to be believed but for some reason and this reason since it cannot be the same for which we believe other points of Faith there being manifestly no such thing as uninterrupted delivery in the case must be something else which as well as It must pretend a vertue of inducing belief And that being a Rule of Faith which has power to settle Faith here is a new Rule of Faith brought into the Church and with it all the Incertainâ—y and all the confusion blamed in the most extravagant Sect and this even by her own confession who thinks her Rule is the only means to avoid that incâ—rtainly and that confusion This Rule is manifestly discarded by a new one For she cannot with any face pretend all she teaches was delivered to her if it be pin'd upon her that she teaches what was not dâ—livered and if She lose the pretence to all she will keep it to none since it cannot appear but if she have once deserted her Rule she has don 't oftner And then farewel Church Once take away the Rule and the Church must of necessity go after She has no solid ground of Authority but the stediness of her Faith no stediness of Faith but the stediness of her Rule break that once and there is neither Authority nor Faith nor will within a while be Church left So that in good earnest I do not think the malice of all her profest enemies could â—ver do the Church so much harm as the zeal of her unwary Friends At least for my part break but the Chain once and I know no more any certain way to Heaven than the veryest Enthusiast among all those Sectaries who rove blindly for want of a sure Guide and should find my self as much at a loss That any thing must be believ'd but what was taught by Christ or that any thing can be known to be taught by him but by the constant belief and practise of intermediate ages is what a Catholic should neither say nor endure to hear for it manifestly takes away Divine from Faith and all the advantage we profess in our method above others to come to Faith leaving us as much benighted and as much to seek and as small hopes of success as we object to those whom we think stray most and are most in the dark Wherefore salvo meliori as far as my short prospect reaches To bring Deposing Faith into the Church is a ready way to depose the Church I cannot tell whether I should more wonder or grieve but I am sure I do both to see men so intent upon the maintenance of an Opinion which they have espoused that they forget the honour and safety of the Church and to observe a certain supercilious gravity with which they labour to discourse these things into Faith and Religion should so far impose upon the world that they do not discover thâ—y are quite contrary and destructive to both But no doubt there are enough who see all that is to be seen but if they be no more forward then I to say all they think they are in my conceit the wiser By the favour of your earnestness it is no commendable disposition in private men to turn Reformers on every occasion and when they see any thing amiss step presently in and make a bustle in what concerns them not Let those who Govern the world and shall severely answer for those miscarriages of which They are the cause look to their duty Ours is to live quietly and unoffensively and trust God 's Providence Your importunity has carryed me farther than I intended But you have now your will of me and know I for my part think the not-deposing doctrine is the truly Catholic doctrinâ— Did I think otherwise all your importunities and all considerations in the world besides should not perswade me to it I hope you now find I said true when I told you my thoughts of this matter were such as bâ—came a good Christian and a good Subject and afford you no occasion to change yours if you had any good of Your c. FINIS The Thirteenth and Fourteenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1675. FRIEND YOU had sav'd your self and me some trouble if your last had been your first I almost despair'd of doing any good upon you and perceive that exsculpere verum out of one of your humour is one of the hardest tasks in the world But since 't is come at last I regret not my own pains and for yours it was in your power to have spar'd them But yet I have not done with you The Pope is a crafty Gentleman and has more strings to his Bow then one Shut the door never so fast it is hard to keep him out If St. Peters Keys will not open the lock He has St. Pauls sword to cut it off Not that I apprehend any great danger from downright fighting 'T is a Trick he shews as seldom as he can And he has reason for Kings overmatch him at that weapon But Justice has a sword too and that so sharp that I should be very sorry to see it in his hands Now that there may be justice without deriving it from Pasce Oves or Dabo Claves and that it may belong to him as well as others and by the same means And that he actually has heretofore and may when he please again set on foot pretensions upon this Title to part perhaps all his Majesties Dominions is something too evident to be deny'd and of too great importance to be neglected It is a thing which has long disquieted me with uneasy thoughts but I must freely avow to you I was never so sensible of the danger as since I read the Considerations of present Concernment You are so much concerned in that Book that I must needs suppose you have seen it and observ'd how much may be replyed to what you have said to me But I am for the present so intent upon what 's before that I cannot reflect
Melchisedech That when Christ being a King and a Priest received all judgment of the Father that is most full judicial power He joyning the same with his Priesthood did institute in the Church a regal Priesthood translating in suos I conceive he means St. Peter and his Successors all the power he had of his Father This new coronation of King Peter so long after his death and the mystery of King and Priest meeting in Melchisedech which St. Paul never dreamt of though he treat the subject particularly and something to better purpose and the admirable expedient to avoid dissentions by taking away Regal power are pleasant matters and deserve to be reflected on but that I have so much of this divertive stuff to produce that I cannot stay every where Thomas Bozius tells us Tho. â—ozias de jure stat praefat ad Aldobrand that if Christ be King of Kings and Lord of Lords in like sort the Church must be Queen and Lady that all temporal Regal power doth reside first in the soul of Christ and then in the Church his Spouse the Queen of the World and from her is deriv'd to others Faithful or Infidels as out of a fountain Isid Moscon de Majest militant Eccles P. 96. Isidorus Mosconius sayes to the same purpose That not only all faithful people but likewise Infidels and every natural creature is subject to the commandment of the Pope he is to be worshipped of all men and for this cause he receiveth of all the faithful adorations prostrations and kissing of his feet What pretty truths there are in the World which negligent men overslip by inadvertence who would have thought the Mogul and King of Pegu and Chinese Tartar had deriv'd their little streams of power from the great Channel of the Church Ungrateful men who so little acknowledge their Benefactors But since all natural creatures are subject to his commands I wish some body that has credit would prevail with him that Lyons and Bears and Adders and such naughty natural creatures might be forbidden to do us any harm for the future For as simple as he seems to sit at Rome and though he is pleased to make but little shew of any such power he can stop the mouths of Lyons and quench the violence of Fire So that had we not been Hereticks he might have done us a greater kindness here at London in the time of the fate dismal Fire then we are aware of I warrant you he could have whisper'd down the wind and with one grave Nod have cool'd the courage of the Fire But let us return to Mosconius P. 91 teaching us farther that the Pontifical and Regal power and all other powers are most plentiful in the Pope and do reside in the Pontifical dignity That all dominions whatsoever depend upon the Church P. 656. and upon the Pope as Head of the Church That in the Pope Authority is consider'd in Emperors and Kings power P. 670. and thence it is that power doth depend upon Authority P. 27. That the Pope is call'd universal Judge King of Kings and Lord of Lords P. 677. That Emperors and Kings may be compell'd to keep their oaths taken in their Coronation and Confirmation in that by virtue of such oath they are made the Popes Subjects P. 80. That all temporal Jurisdiction must be exercised not at the Popes command but at his Beck Princes will charge command God who is Lord of all doth by his beck command according to that Dixerat nutu totum tremefecit Olympum That Christ had full Jurisdiction over all the world and all creatures P. 85. and therefore the Pope his Vicar hath so In truth these Authors of yours are considerative men and as careful as they are able They reflect that Popes are generally old men and have often weak lungs and 't was charitable to exempt them from the painful trouble of commanding and make a nod serve the turn Carrerius in his zeal against impious Politicians and Heretics teaches us That true just ordain'd by God Alex. Carrer de Potest Rom. Pont. p. 9. and mere dominion as well in spiritual things as in temporal was brought forth by Christ and the same was committed to St. Peter and his Successors That Christ was Lord over all Inferiors P. 111. not only as God but likewise as man having even then Dominion in the earth and that therefore as the dominion of the world was in Christ both divine and humane so it must be confessed that it was in the Pope his Vicar That the mystery of Redemption being accomplisht Christ as a King gave unto Peter the administration of his Kingdom and St. Peter did execute that his power against Ananias and Saphira That Ghrist as he is man is directly Lord over all the world in Temporalities P. 124. and that therefore the Pope is so likewise in that he is Vicar That the supreme power of judging all and the top of dignities P. 126. and the height of both powers are found in Christs Vicar That as the divine and humane dominion were in Christ P. 150. so in Christs stead the dominion of the world in the Pope is both spiritual and temporal P. 151. divine and humane That the unremovable Truth doth design by Peters only coming by water to Christ that the whole dominion which is signified by the Sea is committed to St. Peter and his Successors 'T is quaint that and surprizing but yet this water me thinks is something an unstedy foundation That as the Pope cannot say he is not Christs Vicar so he cannot deny but that he is Lord over all things because the earth is the Lords and the fulness thereof whereby all things heavenly earthly and infernal are subject unto Christ the Lord and thence it is that he did commit unto the Pope who doth supply his place upon earth the right of the Heavenly and Terrene Empire That he should forget the infernal Empire the famous Purgatory power which for all it be under ground time has been when no glebe above ground has been more fruitful Elsewhere he teaches that there are divers Powers of men given by God P. 142. and divers Authorities all which do depend upon the highest Authority meaning I suppose the Popes and thence as the stars from the sun receive their light That the Imperial power concerning the administration of temporal matters doth proceed from the Pontifical power P. 145. as the light of the Moon from the light of the Sun P. 161. That the Empire of Rome before it was converted to Christ was a dominion usurpt and tyrannical because the true dominion was in the line of Christ That the Emperor is the Popes Minister for God did appoint him tanquam summi Sacerdotis Ministrum That no King or Emperor hath jurisdiction or dominion but from Christ and by consequence can have none at all but from his
the Bishop of Rome in place of Christ is set as a Prince over the whole world in spirituals and temporals and that it is naturally morally and by the Law of God to be held with a right faith that the Principality of the Bishop of Rome is the true and only immediate Principality of the whole world not only as touching things spiritual but likwise temporal and the Imperial Principality is depending upon it as being mediate ministerial and instrumental ministring and serving it and that it is ordained and instituted by it and at the commandment of the Papal Principality is moveable revocable corrigible and punishable I marry Here 's a man speaks to purpose Hang this squemish faint-heartedness which serves for nothing but to cover an ugly face with a vizor as ugly We know well enough what the mincing indirect in ordine ad spiritualia power would be at and 't is a great deal better to speak plainly for Orthodox truths such as concern the Law of God and right faith should be spoken so that people may understand them and know their duty As for Kings they are likely to boggle as much at the mask as the face If they be turn'd out of their Kingdoms and reduc'd to beggery the beggery will be direct beggery whatever the power is which brought them to it and this fine distinction but uncomfortable alms One would think this fellow were not to be match't and what think you of him who says in down-right terms Alvar. Pelagius de planctu Eccl. l. 1. a 37. That the Pope hath the propriety of the Western Empire and the rest of the world in protection and tuition He bids fair this man but of all commend me to Jacobus de Terano who explicating that scurvey text Tract Monarch· Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesars tells us It was spoken but for a time not for ever that it was to hold only til the Ascension of Christ and afterwards that should come to pass which was spoken when I shall be lifted up from the earth I will draw all things after me that is I will recover all the Empires and Kingdoms of the world and will take them from Caesar from Kings and Princes to give them to the Pope I have not met with any who bids fairer for the purple than this man And so I leave him and the rest of your learned Authors for though more men might be alledged and more from these men yet in truth I am weary and must pass over sundry passages of profound learning and useful knowledge as that Papa is deriv'd from the Interjection Pape Moscon p. 22. because his dignity and power is admirable to all men and is as it were the amazement of the World according to the Gloss in the Proeme of the Clementines Papa stupor mundi non Deus non homo sed utrumque That he is God best defin'd by negation Manch l. 3. c. 1. Carrer p. 132. so that if one ask whether the highest Bishop be a Duke a King an Emperor to answer warily we should by denying affirm the Pope to be quid praestantius quidve eminentius So that we may hope one day to see a mystical Theology made for the Pope and the inaccessible mystery of his power declar'd by negations Moscon p. 92. That unto the Pope as Pastor of the Church Lanc. Conrad l. 2. c. 1. S. 4. and Bishop of that holy Sea and by reason of his dominion and excellence is given Adoratio Duliae such worship as belongs to Saints and Reliques Besides I have seen cited That he is holden to be Christ's Vicar not only in respect of things in earth August Triump q. 18. a. 2. in Heaven and in Hell but even over Angels both good and bad That he is greater than Angels as touching dominion not in respect of himself merely but by Authority from God and may be superior to any Angels concerning recompence of reward art 5. and may excomunicate them That he is equal to God and can make something of nothing and wrong to be right and such pretty matters which if the ears of you Catholics were not as much hardned as the hearts of us Heretics would sound a little odly But to our purpose The method of discourse requires now that I should apply these sayings to the matter in hand but the application is so easie and obvious that to spend time in it must needs be equally tedious and needless For pray tell me can any Commonwealth be safe or subsist at all if Princes have no dominion but what they receive from the Pope If they hold their Empires and Kingdoms of him if they may absolve their subjects from allegeance and transfer their rights from one line to another If they be his Ministers his Vassals his Subjects If their power be ministerial and subservient to the Papal to be exercis'd at his beck and be at his command both corrigible and revocable If any thing be plain in the world this is that either Princes must be taken out of the world or these Maxims For without more ado he that makes a Prince be a Subject makes him no Prince speaking as I do of absolute Princes Wherefore leaving these things and their application to your consideration I turn my self to reflect on what I concieve you may reply Two things there are which I have heard alledged in your behalf with some appearance but not much substance First that notwithstanding all this Catholic Princes do live safely and govern quietly and therefore to conclude these doctrines are inconsistent with government is to conclude that cannot be done which we plainly see is done Next that while men are men there will be quot capita tot sententiae that nature is not furnisht with means to confine the fancies of private men to the limits of strict reason that these are problematical Questions which particular men dispute into probabilities but for which the Church is not responsible having never either defined or otherwise ingaged her authority for them To the first I reply that a certain King took poyson so long that it became food to him and yet I think poyson for all that a very dangerous thing and very inconsistent with health The Princes you mention have Antidotes undoubtedly with which I am not acquainted but let the Antidote be never so good poyson will be poyson still And truly I think Sir Thomas Moor did honestly when finding some passages in the book which Henry the 8th writ against Luther of which by the King's command he had the perusal and in which he thought the Pope was complemented a little too far he represented to the King that one day possibly they might fall out as afterwards they did and that then He might wish some things unsaid While those Princes and the Pope continue friends they need not much apprehend and possibly are not much accquainted with what passes amongst
should place the Emperor by himself in respect of his temporalities he should grant two beginnings which were Heresie In good Faith Sir I cannot think otherwise but if these men say true your Catholic Princes let them keep as fair as they will with the Pope are all Heretics in their hearts And then what follows Hark what a Cardinal and which I grieve an English man hath publisht to the World Card. Allen against the execution of justice p. 87. The Cannon Laws says he being authentical in the lawful Tribunals of the Christian World do make all Heretics not only after they be namely and particularly denounced but by the Law it self ipso facto as soon as they be Heretics are de jure excommunicated for the same to be depriv'd of their Dominions Philopater p. 154. Another tells us The whole School of Divines and Canonists do hold and that 't is certain and of Faith that any Christian Prince whatsoever if he shall manifestly deflect from the Catholic Religion and endeavour to draw others from the same does presently fall from all power and dignity by the very force of human and divine Law and that also before any Sentence of the supreme Pastor or Judge denounced against him and that his Subjects whatsoever are free from all Obligation of that Oath which they had taken for their Allegeance to him as their lawful Prince and that they may and ought if they have forces drive out such a man as an Apostate or Heretic and a Backslider from the Lord and Christ and an enemy to the Commonwealth from all Dominion over Christians lest he infect others or by his example or command avert others from the faith and that this certain definite and undoubted opinion of the best learned men is wholly agreeable and consonant to the Apostolical doctrine Upon these grounds it was publickly maintain'd that Henry the third of France was lawfully murthered before any sentence of excommunication past against him because though in hidden crimes formalities be requir'd yet evidens notitia facti sententiae locum tenet non percipit formam publicus dolor And that he had long liv'd as an excommunicate person de facto de justa abdic Hen. 3. l 4. c. 2 though the law had not past sentence upon him for favouring Heretics for Simony for entring into league with Hereticks the Queen of England and King of Navar for seizing the goods of the Church without the Popes privity and other offences against the Bulla Caenae Upon these grounds I have seen that execrable Villain Chastel who attempted upon Henry the Fourth what Ravillac after performed defended by a public Apology and I see no attempt can be so barbarous and inhumane which may not be defended by them So that by your favour your Catholic Princes are not secure Quiet they may be but never safe and for their quietness they may thank the lucky conjuncture of those stars which have influence upon the times of their government and restrain the malignity of these Doctrines Otherwise if they be not very cunning in school subtilties they may chance forfeit their Kingdoms and all their power per triccum de lege without ever knowing when or how live all their life time in the erroneous belief that they are very Kings and those who obey them their very Subjects and be deceiv'd all the while But be it as it will this answer which would justifie the innocence of these doctrines by the security of Catholic Princes comes pitifully off when instead of securing it takes them quite away which is a fine kind of security for it is plainly a much easier task to maintain by these doctrines that there is never a true Prince in the Christian world no not in those whom you call Catholics than it is to maintain the doctrines And yet when all is done 't is nothing to purpose neither For our Prince and People are of the number of those whom your Church takes for Heretics and can expect no other treatment from you than what you maintain belongs to Heresie Wherefore however your Catholic Princes satisfie themselves I neither see how he can be satisfied of the fidelity of such of his Subjects as approve of these opinions nor with what face they can pretend security and protection from him Pray think of this while I pass to what I put for a second answer and what I have sometimes heard alledged These opinions will you say are moot-cases probably disputed amongst private men in which the Church is neither engaged nor concerned Pray God this Church be not as slippery a word as either Heresie or Popery These men who thus magnifie the Pope certainly are not of our Church and I believe Presbyterians and Fanaticks of all sorts will disown them too so that even for pitty and not to make Infidels of them you must needs take them into yours But they who speak so kindly of the Pope need not fear disowning We see they are both acknowledged and esteemed and are all Capita alta ferentes Now 't is strange your Church should be unconcern'd in men whom you account Orthodox and learned and whose books come out with the approbation of those whom your Church commissionates for that purpose Me-things the Act of her Officers acting by her Authority should be taken for the Act of the Church Unless you will have the Pope pass for one of those careless Princes who deserve to be deposed for negligence and be ignorant that his Officers abuse their trust and licence unsound doctrines and this at Rome it self where a body would think sufficient care is taken that nothing pass which is not esteemed Orthodox Bring me a Book printed at Rome wherein the contrary doctrine is maintain'd and I will acknowledge there is some sense in this answer In the mean time let me give you a few instances and those at home by which it may appear the Pope is so far from ignorant and unconcern'd in these positions that he approves and countenances them and that both â—hotly and constantly In the reign of King James upon the occasion of the execrable Powder Treason the Oath of Allegeance was enacted by the pious wisdom of the Parliament to secure his Majesty and Successors from the like attempts for the future The Superior of the Catholic Clergy at that time was one Blackwell He after much and long debate of the matter with his fellow Priests at last resolved the Oath according to the plain and common sense of the words might with a safe conscience be taken by the Catholics and afterwards both took it himself and by his admonitions to Clergy and Laity recommended it to them as a thing both lawful and fitting The greatest part of the Clergy who repair'd to London upon that occasion followed the resolution of their Superior and had the Pope been either a little more ignorant or a little more negligent I think it had been better for you
will the Pope looks quietly on lets them cool and take breath and too 't again and this is fair play But to depress one side and cherish the other and this vigorously and constantly is something odd for probabilities In the name of wonder are Schism and Heresie probable amongst you into which one side of your probabilities alwayes runs Or is it an approv'd custom amongst you to excommunicate for probabilities In fine say what you will I cannot think otherwise but that these probabilities of yours are as improbable as any thing in the world Then for your other pretence that the Church all this while interposes not either all words universally have conspir'd together to abuse us and make us understand nothing even of the plainest or there is no sence in it One would think that Church in Spirituals is as state in Temporals Now if two Princes fall out and the King of France for example assist the one with council and forces and the endeavours of his Ministers we say usually and I think pertinently that the State of France is engaged on that side and he who should deny it would be thought deficient either in his language or his wits For can a more pleasant paradox be invented than that an Army marching by commission of the King of France owning his orders and He their actions were all the while but a company of particular men in whose doings the King and State are unconcern'd Now for King say Pope and for State say Church and where is the difference Notwithstanding as I am not much acquainted with quirks and fear the subtle Distinguo and the triccum de schold as much as the triccum de lege I will not undertake but that amongst so many school Physitians as you have some Logical plaister may be found out which you may apply to this sore But this I see that whatever effect a distinction may have in the Schools it will do no manner of good in the world For if the men of your Church persecute other men they will be no less persecuted whether your Church do this as a Church or under some other formality The world is a material thing and formalities alter not its settled course Discredit and want and pain are materiall things and when they fall upon a man he will be ill at ease in spite of all the belief formalities can afford him And if material Subjects rebell against a material King and drive him out of his material Kingdom I think it matters not much what formalities there were in the case I suppose he will be little the better by learning his Subjects did not act as Subjects nor treat him as a King and his new acquaintance with those subtle empty forms I fear will yield him small comfort If your formalities can preserve or restore Kingdoms if they can make honest men of Traitors if they can restore the credit of private men and relieve their wants and ease their distresses I shall acknowledge they are worth hearkning after But if they can do none of these things the Schools that invented them had even best keep them to themselves and much good may they do them The world has neither need nor use of them for real mischiefs are not cur'd by verbal distinctions We complain that the material Governor of your Church arrogates to himself a power dangerous to Princes and that the material men of your Church maintain him in it and both together hotly prosecute All who are not as hot as themseves Tell not me the Church indeed does this but not as a Church for as a Church or not as a Church she does it and if the mischief be done what matter is it how Withrington ended his uncomfortable dayes in prison Walsh is in a fair way to the same preferment Thousands of people were ruin'd thousands destroy'd in Italy and Germany upon the contests betwixt the Pope and Emperor in France upon the Holy League and what happened in those places may happen every where 'T is a remedy for these mischiefs which I look after and security that they shall not one day happen here not the formality by which they were done For in fine a formal plaister to a material wound is but good words to him who is hungry We had our formalities too and our distinctions in the late war and heard enough of the politic capacity and the personal capacity but they neither abated any thing of the publick misery nor the deserv'd punishment inflicted on the witty Authors Our Pagan Juries found them guilty for all their acuteness and their sophistry had no effect with the illiterate Hangman and undistinguishing Halter We had the formalities of Justice to boot but they serv'd for nothing but to render a fact execrable in it self more barbarous and more inhumane You may have more and other formalities but after all they will be but formalities and not a jot more useful than ours You shall permit me to conclude with a Dilemma which I would recommend to your serious thoughts Either your Church it engag'd in these Positions or she is not if she be she is unexcusable for holding them if not you are unexcusable for not renouncing them when without injury to her authority or your own consciences you may I would gladly receive an answer to this Paper or rather a return for I do not think any answer can be made However I entreat you by all our friendship to let me know what you can say Having found you both rational and ingenious in other points you must needs satisfie the curiosity I have to know whether you will disclaim your Church or your reason for certainly you must make bold with one and the best I suppose will be but a bad choice As you are all brought up in a wonderful reverence to your Church I know it will be hard for you to acknowledge any thing amiss in Her and yet on the other side I think it will go against the hair of your temper to part with your reason and that you may be thought a good Son of your Church be content to be thought no good man as certainly he is not whose actions are not warranted by his reason Pray think not the worse of my friendship that I put you to so hard a choice Reason is the measure of friendship as of other virtues and we cannot sin against friendship by acting according to reason Besides Friend you live in a Communion disapprov'd by Law and unmaintainable by Reason and I think 't is the part of a friend to tell you so Wherefore once again pray think not the worse of me and be assured that whatever you think I truly am Your Faithful Friend and Servant SIR I Received your long Letter with the obligation you lay upon me to answer it and heartily wish you had made use of the power you have over me in some other occasion This subject is a kind of Candle to Flyes
with which if they happen to play they have great luck if they do not burn their wings You are at your ease and may freely talk at pleasure secur'd by the Laws and at defiance with the Pope The case is otherwise with us who believing of the Pope as we do and subject to the Laws as we are can neither be without respect for him nor apprehension of them and though we could speak even clearness it self 't is all to nothing but we fall foul on one of the Rocks Notwithstanding since I ow much to your friendship I would gladly preserve if I can your good opinion both to my self and Religion of which you speak so charitably and nothing like an enemy and besides would not be guilty of her shame by confessing she has nothing to answer nor of my own by continuing in an unjustifiable communion I obey you with this request that you will take care to preserve me from the hazard I run by serving you and let this Paper be seen by none but such as mean as well as you and I. First then I am so far from thinking our friendship shockt by your free proceeding that I take my self and Religion both obliged to your candor and wish from my heart I may as well justifie her as you have your friendship And for my Church there are so few who look upon her with equal eyes that this pity of yours as just and charitable as it is is yet more rare and I cannot see it without as much acknowledgment as satisfaction And yet as strongly as you discourse every where I think you have reason no where more than in this particular For so it is if we say nothing and when we are often and loudly provoked to speak still hold our tongues we have a bad cause and such for which nothing can be said if we speak we are insolent and cannot keep our selves quiet when we are well And after all 't is the Combat betwixt the Knight and the Giant still as you have rightly observed But the world is the world where Reason as much our nature as it is cannot hinder but Chance and Interest and Passion and several humours to which men are subject will have their share in the conduct of things Wherefore without complaining farther of what complaints are not likely to remedy I think it best to address my self to my defence And the first point of it shall be to declare I mean not to defend any of those opinions which you have alledged with so much sharpness for in truth I think them not defensible and that there is not more sharpness than justice in what you say Not but that to own who would take the pains to peruse the Authors you have cited some of those Sayings possibly might not appear so ugly as they do in your Paper For there is a great difference betwixt words taken as they lie in the whole Context and singled out from their fellows who might peradventure to some of them afford some tolerable explication But besides that I conceive that labour not necessary for my purpose I have no kindness at all for the Doctrines and not enough for the Authors to prevail with me to undertake it I have heard from those who meddle with Controversie that their greatest difficulty often is to preserve the credit of private men whom because they are of the same Communion they are so unwilling to affront that they have much ado to preserve the Church from the contagion of their Errors As my nature is a little more blunt I have no such difference for them and think it but just that Qui pergit quae volt dicere ea quae non volt audiat Let them shift for themselves on Gods name or let those defend them who approve their Maximes For my part I hate them heartily and think it but a preposterous Charity to be so tender for the credit of those who betray the credit of the Church Allowing then for reason all you say against those opinions of which I think as ill as you can do I yet conceive your reason fails in the inference you draw from them That true Religion cannot teach Doctrines inconsistent with Government That a Commonwealth is not safe in which such Doctrines are either tolerated or conniv'd at that is when they come to be instilled and get credit with the People otherwise while they remain in the Schools I should think the danger not very great for Kingdoms are not overturn'd by Syllogisms Farther if you please that the Doctrines you have produced are such Doctrines I freely grant you But that our Church does teach such Doctrines I deny and notwithstanding all you have said if you still preserve your unbyass'd candor hope to make the contrary very evident And first because with you I think my authority may signifie something for you know I will not tell you a lye you shall permit me to say something of my own knowledge I was born you know of Catholic Parents bred up in Catholic Religion and have lived some part of my time in Catholic Countries I have been at their Schools heard their Catechisms their Sermons their Discourses and by the care of my Friends and some pains of my own think few of my condition more fully instructed in that Religion I assure you faithfully I was never taught any such Doctrine nor ever heard the Church taught it On the contrary I have been bred up in this belief that obedience to my King is not only truly a duty but a duty truly required by Religion and this perswasion was so well setled in my heart that I yet remember how great and surprizing a horror the late Rebellion caused in me when I was too young to judge otherwise of it or any thing else but as I found it contrary to the sentiments which had been instilled into me I have heard indeed of the opinions you cite but as of extravagancies of bold men and when I came to the age of judging of things my self found that though they were held by men living in Communion with the Church they had yet no warrant from the Church to hold them nor any better ground than their own mistaking reasonings and so continued to detest them by judgment as I did before by Education Now this answer which it seems you foresaw you have endeavoured to prevent making use your self of an Artifice of Rhetoric to bar me the assistance of Logic for you would perswade me that to distinguish the material Church from the formal or the man from the Churchman is an idle airy nicety which is of no use in the World But truly one of us is much mistaken for I think on the contrary that nothing is more obvious nothing more familiar let me add nor more necessary and that even to your material world as you call it which without such distinctions would quickly run into confusion The World is made up of men
and men of several qualities The same person is both a man and a Rich and Proud man a Powerful and an Angry man and we see Wit and Ambition Goodness and Ignorance Learning and Fantasticalness often coupled together and a hundred several mixtures of several qualities united all in one material Man Now consider what fine work there would quickly be if every one of these useless formalities as you call them must be chargeable with all actions if Riches must be taken away because the Rich Proud man has scorn'd and Power because the Powerful Angry man has wronged his Neighbour if Wit must bear the blame of Ambition and Goodnesâ— the miscarriages of Ignorance and Learning the Errors of Fantasticalness Reason is our very Nature and yet I think there are few to whom Nature has not given Logick enough to see that we do not always act as reasonable and who are not learned enough to separate the Animal from the Man To speak yet plainer a severe Father a harsh Master do they not sometimes use their Children and Scholars unreasonably and so as utterly to spoil them A corrupt Judge does he not pervert Justice and render those Tribunals from whence men expect the relief of Injuries the seats of Oppression What then Must the Father and the Master and the Judge be condemned for the faults of the Man and none of these powers left in the world because they have been and daily are abused I think you and every body will confess that this were unreasonable and yet your Argument spares none of them For 't is all one to Children and Pleaders if they be materially opprest and misus'd whether this be done by the fault of the Office or the Officer and small comfort it is to tell them that their Judges and Masters acted in their case as passionate men not as Judges and Masters for they remain opprest still and the formality relieves them not Kings themselves are men too and not exempt from the failings of Mortality Our Country indeed has this amongst other things to thank God for that she has been extraordinarily blest with good Kings but History affords examples of such elsewhere as have been unjust and cruel and tyrannical And if you will not allow the King and his sacred Function to be free from the aspersions to which the Man is sometimes liable let me tell you Friend your Doctrine will be more dangerous and more inconsistent with Government than the Papal pretensions Now as in all these cases and a hundred more which happen every day and every where Nature teaches us to examine the formality from whence the mischief proceeds and endeavour to provide against that and let the rest alone so I think it ought to be in the case of the Church We condemn not Learning because some learned men are fantastical nor Riches for the pride of rich men why must the Church be condemned for the fault of Church-men Authority and Goodness and Wit are not blemisht by the errors of those who have them the Power of Fathers and Masters and Judges is and must be preserved in the world however Severity and Covetise daily abuse it and if this be so in all the rest of the world can you think it reasonable the Church alone should be exempted from the general rule and be more answerable for the faults of those who live in her communion than Authority for the faults of bad men in Authority The faults indeed should be taken away but the Church let alone And truly had your Reformation as you call it gone no farther than to retrench abuses such as these you mention and who knows but there may be other I might peradventure have call'd it so too But instead of abuses to take away Office and all and defie the supreme Pastor of the Church and alter the whole face of Religion there by your favour you reformed a little too far For the same Logic which makes the Church responsible for the errors of Church-men makes the Office responsible for the faults of the Officer and that is to take all Offices out of the world where men will be men and liable to be reduced from the path of vertue in spight of all preventions possible in such a nature as ours I hope by this time that distinction does not appear so airy and useless as you imagined you shall permit me to add that possibly you are no less concern'd in it than We. For we are not the only men amongst whom Principles inconsistent with Government may be found Remember who they were that ruin'd England by the late War and were guilty of things which to dilate were as unsavoury as needless They were so far from Popery these men that fear of Popery was a chief Engine employed in the mischief Sad fate by the way and preposterous wisdom to destroy our selves for fear of being destroyed and run into Fire and the Sword for fear of Ink and Paper Neither is England the only example Scotland and the Netherlands and Germany and France have felt lamentable effects from the Doctrines of men who would take it for an imputation to have learnt any thing of the Pope So that it is very plain that the Papal is neither the only nor the only dangerous King-deposing power in the world 'T is as plain that these men are neither Infidels nor of our Church so that you must even exercise your Pity too and take them into yours Or if pity will not prevail I hope at least you will take care so to defend your Allegiance a not to overthrow your Church And unless you make your Creed consist but of Eleven Articles I see not how you can disown the Communion of these men for 't will be a strange Catholic Church which communicates neither with the Church of Rome nor her Adversaries Wherefore if your Argument be good and Religion must answer for the faults of those who profess it there is no remedy but Princes to be secure must banish all Religion and People turn Atheists to be honest men and good Subjects Now whatever answer you would give to one who should charge such wicked principles upon your Church because they are maintained by numerous and learned and famous men amongst you the same I give for mine I believe for all your Pique to formalities you would go near to distinguish your Church or Believing men from the Erring men and say you communicate with the Men but not with the Errors So you shall permit me to say for mine and this farther that whatever you say you must of necessity either condemn your selves or absolve us 'T is not that the force of your Argument drives me to that way of answer which I have chosen it being easie to shew the Churches innocence even in your own way and without the help of your disliked formalities Your Argument in short is this Learned men in the Church hold wicked Doctrines therefore the Church
holds them If that Argument be good this likewise of necessity must be good Learned men in the Church hold those Doctrines false and wicked therefore the Church does so too for the same authority cannot but have the same force either way and the Deniers have as much power to remove the imputation from the Church as the affirmers to fix it upon her You have cited if not all yet the most considerable of those who maintain them and they make some ten or twelve 'T is pretty odd that the judgment of ten or twelve men must needs be taken for the judgment of the Church But let that pass by the same rule the judgment of ten or twelve of the contrary must conclude the judgment of the Church for the contrary Wherefore if I produce as many and as famous men for the Negative as you have done for the affirmative 't is without more a do a drawn match and nothing being proved either way the Church is absolved by the Law of nature by which every one is innocent who is not proved nocent But what will become of your Argument if for one of your side I produce two if ten peradventure twenty on the contrary Either you must confess the Argument has no force or the Church innocence efficaciously proved by it unless peradventure you can find some subtile formalities by which you will maintain your single man is stronger than my ten or twenty Now all this is not only possible but already done to my hand by Caron the learned defender of the Irish Remonstrance who in his Loyalty asserted what betwixt Canonists and Divines Schoolmen and Fathers Popes Councils Universities Kingdoms c ' has made a Catalogue of more than two hundred and fifty Defenders of the contrary Doctrine You see then I had no necessity of flying to Formalities to answer your Argument For by your own Rule and Method the Church is proved not to hold the Doctrines you mention and not only so but plainly to hold the contrary nothing being more unreasonable in the world than to give it with the ten against the two hundred or to think that ten is a sufficient number to engage the Church one way and two hundred not sufficient to engage her the other But looking a little nearer unto it me thinks it is of kin to Boccalin's Age pargeted four fingers thick with appearances Strip off the gay Jacket of pretty smartness in which you have drest it and there will remain as little substance and less soundness Learned men say you say such things therefore the Chureh says them What if you be as much mistaken in your Antecedent as Inference and that they prove not learned who say them Words you know are slippery things and you have well exemplified in divers I fear this term Learned men and Learning is no less slippery nor less abused than those which are most so But not to be too severe a Divine is a Learned Man can he therefore prescribe Physic The Metaphysician the Natural the Moral Philosopher the Mathematician the Physician the Lawyer are all esteemed learned men but their learning is confin'd every one to his proper profession out of that their authority is of no moment and they may with all their learning be very ignorant in matters which belong not to them Now consider a little The men whom you have cited are excepting one or two all Canonists and esteemed able men in that profession but every one knows their profession consists in declaring what the meaning of the law is and what the intention of the Law-maker and if they go beyond this they exceed the bounds of their profession Our Question now whether the Pope have or have not such a power to what skill does it belong To the Law Plainly nothing less What the Pope has Commanded and what he meant by the words in which he has exprest his commands is as far as the Lawyer can go but what power he has to command and how far that reaches is quite out of his Sphere If I mistake not for 't is a study in which I have no skill the power of the Lawmaker is a Principle supposed not proved in the Law for if a Lawyer go about to prove it keeping without the limits of his own Art he argues a posteriori thus He has commanded such and such things therefore he has power to command them And this is a proper and good law proof where the first Maxim is that the Law is just and the power of the Law-maker still supposed If the Lawyer venture upon other proof he intrenches upon anothers skill in which possibly he may be very ignorant And he that will not be satisfied with this nor admit his other Maxim Lex non facit injuriam but excepts against Law and Power and all has no remedy but to seek satisfaction elsewhere In fine what the Pope claims from Christ belongs to the Divine what from Reason and the force of Nature to the Philosopher only what he claims to the agreement of men belongs to the Lawyer and in this he ought to be heard in other things he is Sutor ultra crepidam Your discourse therefore which appears so trim and gay in the dress you have given it has no more strength than the authority of a few men in a matter wherein they have no authority and if they had is overpowred by a greater and this methinks you needed not have thought so unanswerable Were you now an Adversary with whom I should think fit to use the Right establisht by the Laws of disputation I should say no more for an Answerer has fully discharged his part who has shewn his Opponents Argument concluding But since we are Friends and write not to convince but inform one another I shall return to my old way which I take to be the way of Nature and endeavour to shew you more minutely how unreasonable it is the Church should be charged with those errors Church signifies a Congregation of Faithful and Faithful Men who have Faith And since Men cannot be without Reason nor Reason without working in them 't is unavoidable that besides the perswasions lodg'd in them by Faith men will have others which proceed from their Reasons to say nothing of Passion and the Animal Nature which has its efficacie upon the Faithful as well as all the rest of mankind Now as in the rest of the actions of men Nature forces us to look into the Principles from whence they proceed and attribute every one to his proper cause which if we did not all would presently turn into confusion So we must here and consider in the actions of the Faithful Whether they act as Faithful or as Men. And those Actions which proceed not from Faith but Reason or Passion are no more to be charg'd upon the Church than the Covetise or Cruelty or whatever faults of men in office upon their Offices And in all this there is
to satifie them all And as the Schools go now it is not hard to say almost any thing As men are of several tempers I will not deny but some may be truly perswaded of your Doctrines and defend them with an upright conscience thinking that to exalt the Pope is truly advantageous to Religion and beneficial to the World But I believe you will not find many so qualified Those you have named are some the Popes own Subjects most Italians or Spaniards upon whom He is known to have particular influence and if we judge that in this exalting the Pope they might have an eye to the preferment of themselves I think it will be no rash judgment Of latter times those have appeared the chief sticklers in this quarrel who are thought to have the greatest dependance upon Rome So that of all produced and produceable in behalf of those opinions I deceive my self if the number be not shamefully inconsiderable against whom there lies not a just suspicion of interest and of whom it may not reasonably be judged that Hopes or Fears or something besides pure Conscience swayed their judgments And Interest you know is a just exception against a Witness in all Courts As for private men what would you have them do Consider that all Catholics look upon the Pope as the chief Bishop in God's Church and supreme Pastor of the whole Flock If they hear any thing said over-lashingly of him can it be expected they should be forward to speak what they think til a due occasion urges them Or have less respect for him than common civilitie uses to every body For when any thing is said advantageous to a person with whom we converse if we believe it not we keep our thoughts to our selves and think it rudeness to oppose it to their faces Besides as I said at first this medling of private men with the concern of Princes is the Flies playing with the Candle Withrington quite burnt his wings Walsh has fairly sing'd them and if people learn wariness by the harms of other men I conceive they are not blameable As frightful and threatning as the Idea is which you have made of this danger no Prince that I know thinks it great enough to deserve that they should interpose and I think the man very foolishly wise who will pretend to understand their concerns better than themselves or better know what is fit to be done People of our private Sphere see but one thing Princes see that one thing in likelihood better than we and a hundred more of which we never dream and till they stir themselves for private men to obtrude their politic Ignorance upon them is so far from laudable that it is well if it be pardonable neither will their forwardness signifie more than an over busie diligence and peradventure saucy unquietness The old Monks wise counsel Sinere res vadere ut vadunt is as necesiary in the world as a Cloyster Besides for English Catholics in particular they have somewhat more reason to keep silence while their speaking is sure to be discountenanced on the one side and not sure to be protected on the other You may perceive by Caron's Collection that Catholicks are so much mealy mouthed men towards the Pope when there is fit occasion to speak what they think and God forbid that Forreiners should be better Subjects than English men I am sure they were Catholics who declared in Parliament that the imperial Crown of England is and at all times has been free from all subjection to the Pope And provided the Statute of Praemunire against such abuses as were then found inconvenient And they were Catholicks who refused to repeal this Statute in the days of Queen Mary when other Laws made against the Popes Authority were taken away But if you will have a touchstone of the fidelity of English Catholics look a little upon the year 88. The Pope had stretched his Authority as far as it would go and proceeded to Excommunication Deposition and Absolution of his Subjects from Obedience to her down right Commands to assist her Enemies and this Authority was backt by the Power of a great Prince in their thought and language invincible Besides the Title of the Queen born in time of a Marriage declared lawfull by the Pope was not free from dispute which carried the inclination of Catholics to the Title of Scotland since happily introduced and which I hope will long happily continue and this was if I mistake not the true reason of the jealousie and severity of those times against them Notwithstanding the unusual concurrence of so many and so great temptations They stood firm in their Allegeance and both our own and forrein Writers testifie that neither the subtil Arts of the Politic Spaniard or the enforcement of the Popes Authority could prevail to make any Party here but that the most learned and esteemed of the Priests by a solemn and authentic Writing acknowledged the Queen notwithstanding she was excommunicated and deposed by name to have still the same Authority and power as before and as much as any of her Predecessors and the Layty chearfully and universally offered to hazard their lives in defence of their Prince and Country and that as private Souldiers ther being too much suspicion in the jealousie of those times to pretend to commands In fine the Spaniards were so ill satisfied with them that the Duke of Medina Admiral in that expedition at his return plainly told the Dutchess of Feria an English Woman of the Family of the Dormirs that had he prevailed no difference had been made betwixt Catholics and others more than what the Sword could have found Of later times the whole Nation is obliged to bless God for the happy fidelity of some of them and we had still been groaning under our late miseries if this traiterous Religion had not principled even poor men into a fidelity stronger than the temptation of Gold And 't is not like the men who act thus would refuse to speak in fit occasion Things have been written even since the return of his Sacred Majesty which have been peradventure more zealous than seasonable but however which sufficiently discover the inclination of Catholics to say all that can be expected with reason from them when the conjuncture is proper In the mean time to consider the Dilemma you so earnestly recommend to me I must tell you it concludes not We are inexcusable say you if we renounce not those Positions when without injury to the Churches Authority or our own conscience we may Why so F A is there no excuse for an action but this that 't is unlawful People before they do any thing use to consider the Why as well as the What and examine not only whether the action be allowable but whether it be convenient But not to insist on this I will offer you a fair bargain Do you your part and I will do mine make it reasonable make
his I am taught to love my neighbour as my self because I am satisfy'd the way in which I am is the way to Heavean I wish every body would chuse it But if you think me a dangerous person for this you must think Reason a dangerous thing which he that fears to be trapand let me tell you is more trapan'd by his own fears You talk pleasantly of half Catholicks and motly Religion but I think you expect no answer and need not be put in mind that Religion as sacred as it is cannot hinder men from using their weak apprehensions and disorderly fancies and irregular deductions as well upon it as every thing else and he that shall take all that for Faith which every even faithful man offers him may too truly say inopem me copia fecit and find perhaps at last that too much Religion has left him none at all For the new trouble with which you threaten me I hope the more you examine my answer the less cause of exception you will find against it Nevertheless if you do prove dissatisfy'd I will endeavour when I know why to satisfie you as well as I can The noble Person cite was unquestionably a wise man and his saying is a wise saying and I am of his mind and wish such an Authentick definition made in this matter with all my heart But Friend I am no Pope to make one and though I am perswaded an Authentick definition of truth might produce very good effects I fear an unseasonable dispute might do as much harm Those two Powers like two boundless Seas have sometimes strugled together and in their unresistable Waves buried multititudes of unhappy People We may bless God we live in a calm disputes might raise the billows again and who knows when they would be laid I could speak with Freedom to you but since you talk of communicating what I say to others consider that one will mistake ignorantly another pervert wilfully a third deduce rashly and in a matter of this consequence where our duty required by the Law of God is concern'd all interpose eagerly and the most ignorant being still the most forward and full of noise the great good you fancy by setting bounds to the two Powers would prove clamour and bustle and inextricable confusion and if any miscarriage-happen all will be imputed to the Author who as innocent as he may otherwise be can never yet acquit himself of medling with what he has nothing to do No Friend let us preserve the Majesty of Supream Powers in an awful distance and submit to them with the reverence of a quiet obedience and not make them cheap by unseasonable disputes Princes and Bishops are both sacred let what belongs to them be so too and not toucht without the excuse of necessity or obligation of duty But People should know how to behave themselves when the two Powers are at odds For my part I conceive this is a Case which may safely be left to Gods providence and that those who do amiss sin more by Passion then Ignorance Let a man truly mean to do well and bring an upright Conscience to he Action and I believe he will not want as much knowledge as is necessary for him This I see that God being Author of both Powers it is not possible they should enterfare but by an abuse of the one and that abuse will be visible enough and when the case happens those who do not want honesty will not miscarry for want of knowledge In the mean time I should be very sorry to see the case happen I will not contribute towards it so much as even to mention it Obedience is the duty which God and my condition require from me and in the performance of that I will endeavour to be found unblamable and leave disputing to those who value the praise of a witty or subtle man above that of a faithful and quiet subject Besides though I might possibly hit of something more then is usually say'd on the argument which in my Opinion uses to be treated lamely enough yet I take it much to exceed the sphere of my ability In two words it is a question which I neither could sufficiently handle if I would nor would if I could But for your second question since it trenches as you say upon Faith and we are taught to be ready to give satisfaction to any who demands an account of the hope in us I shall obey the Apostle and you to my power You tie me nevertheless to pretty severe conditions for what is there or can there be so plain which mistaking zeal will not reprove or what other remedy can I bring to settle your quietness then Reason which yet I conceive to be be the very thing which causes it The onely expedient I can find to speak as you would have me is to say nothing at all I mean of my self farther then to deliver upon occasion may sence of what others say but answer your objection in the words of such men of whom you may be secure they will run no hazard of reproof from our Church and if your Reason can as well rectifie your self as their Authority will justifie them I hope you may at last be satisfy'd Remember then if you please that I take not upon me to determine dogmatically what is true and what false but only to acquaint you what may by a Catholicek unreprovably be said Peradventure I have no reason to be displeas'd with the bargain for dogmatising being so much out of Fashion in this age it is a great deal more easie as well as more fashionable to deliver what other men say to the point then to handle and conclude the point it self But to your difficulty The Pope say you is acknowledg'd by Catholicks to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth and I acknowledge that he is so From this you frame such an Argument What power Christ had the Pope has Christ had all power therefore the Pope has so too and this by an Article of our Faith Before I answer let me intreat you to consider what work 't would make if it were apply'd to Princes instead of Popes which I think it may as well be For if the Pope be the Vicar of Christ on Earth Princes are the Vicars of God on Earth and that I think is as good and reaches as far And if his Vicarship import a power to dispose of Kingdomes why will not their Vicarship import the power of the Keys and why may not he who purely upon the score of Vicarship comes to the Pope for a Title to a Kingdom as well go to his King for Remission of his sins If the Pope must be said to have the temporal Power as well as spiritual because Vicar includes both I see not how Princes can be deny'd to have the spiritual since they have the temporal and are Vicars as well as he This Doctrine would make brave work and introduce a
to understand a power given to absolve from the Bond of Debt Again c. 14. To Peter was given spiritual power onely to remit sins nor can be do any thing in temporals but in foro conscientiae Aegid Rom. Q. de utraque potestat art 3. It is to be understood that Christ had a threefold power over bodies souls and temporal goods The first he us'd by curing infirmities c. The second viz. Spiritual he both us'd and delegated as much as is necessary and expedient for the good of Souls The third He neither us'd nor gave but rather forbad both to Peter and the other Apostles as is said And concludes In the Commission given to Peter his Vicar we read not temporal but onely spiritual power committed to him I will give Thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven he said not and Dominion over worldly things Wherefore he presently adds as explicating himself to mean onely spiritual power Whatever you shall bind c. Ambros Catharin upon Rom. 13. That the pope is Vicar of Christ is nothing to purpose to make us believe he has power given him to rule all the World in temporals It rather perswades us such power was not given him because Christ refus'd it and as he was man had it not in the World for after the Resurrection 't was said all power is given me c. But in this World he was subject to secular powers Wherefore he left the Pope Vicar of that Kingdom which was given him by his Father while he liv'd on Earth namely the spiritual Kingdom over his Sheep c. Otherwise if he be the Vicar of Christ absolutely according to all the power which Christ had he should have power over Angels and the Blessed which is ridiculous And again These powers are different from one another and no man can usurp either at his pleasure and to think and teach otherwise is most seditious and most horrible Anton. de Rosell de Protestat Imp. Pap. p. 1. c. 38. Whence I conclude 't is Heresie and Madness to say that the universal Administration of Temporals is or can be in the Pope Greg. Haimbarg de prim Pap. Whence it appears 't is a fable and invention that is writ in the Decretals that Popes have the plenitude of power givem them and such a Dominion that they are over Kings and Princes in Temporals They are smart fellowes these Schoolmen and speak home and yet are good Catholicks for all that and acknowledg'd to be so neither are they otherwise reprov'd or reprovable then as Scholars take the freedom to censure one another Mean time since a Catholick may unreprovably hold that the two powers were distinguisht by Christ and joyn'd by the Devil the temporal committed to Princes and the spiritual to Bishops who if they be Souldiers of God are not to meddle with secular business that while Bishops dispense divine Princes are to administer humane things that to the Clergy belong onely spirituals and the Popes power has nothing to do with possessions that dominion is forbidden him and onely the Rod of direction granted c. I hope you may quiet your fears and not suspect I shall either be disown'd or reprov'd by my Church if upon the security of so much Authority I deny your first Proposition and affirm the Popes Vicarship is confin'd to spirituals and that it hinders not Princes from being Gods Vicars as well as himself who if they manage all their trust are accountable onely to him second to whom they are and except whom they have none above them I mean in their own kind Onely I would not have you boggle at this that the Pope is not every where expresly nam'd For though the Order of Government require that the Head should have more power then an inferior Member as the Commission of a General must be larger then that of a private Captain yet I think none will doubt but the power of the Pope and the rest of the Clergy is all of the same kind and the more which belongs to him as Head of the Church signifies more of the same sort of actions not power of another nature But because I am to say nothing of my self let St. Leo tell you this and more in a Sermon inserted into the Churches Office on the Feast of St. Peters Chair at Antioch where speaking of the Confession of St. Peter and the promise made him upon it The force indeed says he of this power past into the other Apostles and the Constitution of this Decree of the keys descended to all the Princes of the Church but 't is not without cause that what is intimated to all is commanded to one For this is therefore particularly entrusted to Peter because the example of Peter is propos'd to all the Governors of the Church And so much to the first Proposition which though I have abstained from treating dogmatially yet I have said or rather shew'd you that others say what may abundantly quiet your fears and that a Catholick who confines the Popes power onely to spirituals is so far from contradicting my principle receiv'd amongst Catholicks that he has the warrant of great I had almost said all Authority on this side at least so much that is not well consistent with Catholick principles to oppose it But I pray mistake me not for though I have said nothing of my self yet I would not be misinterpreted so much as to have alledg'd ought which might be thought to question any not onely spiritual but even temporal power which may justly belong to the Church and which when it does she may without doubt justly use But 't is one thing to have power by agreement of men and another by Commission from Christ and I would say no more then St. Bernard has said before me that however such things may belong to the Church yet not by right of Apostleship Your Argument assum'd that a Vicar had the same power with him whose Vicar he is what I have alledg'd was only to answer that and as I am not oblig'd so I meant not to go farther What I shall adde in examination of your second Proposition you will perceive is more to satisfie your Friendship then your Argument for whether Christ had temporal Dominion or no if he gave it not to the Pope the Pope is never the near and your Argument sufficiently cleer'd Notwithstanding since I would not give you cause to complain I neglect any thing you propos'd let us consider how far this is true that Christ had all temporal as well as spiritual power But Friend I hope your feud to formalities is abated for I must tell you beforehand there is no discoursing on this subject without distinguishing the God from the Man Yow know in Christ the distinct properties of both Natures were so united that they both made but one Sacred Person to which person nothing can be deny'd which can with truth be affirm'd of God and none
me to think they do I have shew'd you what the Sentiments of the Fathers and the Church are for the rest it belongs not to me This which I have done being only to obey your Commands and testifie the power you have over Your c. The Seventh and Eighth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1673. FRIEND I Know not how it happens but the more you shew me methinks the less I see While I read your Letters I find not what to except against yet when I look off I remain still unsatisfi'd That there should be a Spiritual Power distinct from the Temporal is plainly necessary in it self and own'd by us We go not to Westminster Hall for remission of our sins or to hear the Word of God preach'd or receive the Sacraments These things belong to Spiritual Magistrates amongst whom the Chief with us is the Bishop of Canterbury as with you the Bishop of Rome And since for Orders sake and the nature of Government a Chief there must be It matters not much whether as one wittily said the top link of the Spiritual Chain be fastned to the Chair of Canterbury or of Rome So the Temporal Primacy be undisturb'd and undisturbable by the Spiritual it seems all one vvhether have it I mean in point of Safety for true or false is another question And truly I neither see how your Spiritual Primacy should disturb it if all be true you say nor why I should doubt of the truth of what you say while I consider you say nothing of your own head but bring such Vouchers for every thing that I think your Church cannot say otherwise unless she throw off that Reverence which with so much ostentation she professes to have for Antiquity And yet of necessity there must be more in it The mischiefs against which I would be secur'd have actually happened Princes have been deposed and the world has been too much concerned in the effects of this Power to be ignorant of it Our own Princes have not been exempt from attempts of this nature and the hazard the nation ran in 88. is not yet out of our memory So that manifestly either you believe one thing and do another or you have not inform'd me truly but covered an ugly face with a handsom vizar Truly I believe better of your candour than to suspect you deceive me by design yet certainly things are not so cleer and smooth of your side as you would make me believe To read your Papers one would think nothing could be more innocent than your doctrine in this Point yet the vvorld is witness of doings far from Innocent I must confess I was sometime sufficiently perplext to unriddle this mystery But at last I remembred Bellarmin and vvhen I reflected on his Indirect and in ordine ad Spiritualia Power methought I had found the clew to guide me out of this Labyrinth That distinction does it Friend and in truth I never so well understood the vertue of Distinctions before for by the help of this I perceive you may say enough to pass for honest men and in the mean time reserve as much liberty as heart can vvish to play the knave Pardon my bluntness 't is without malice I assure you but I am too much intent upon the Question to be choice of my vvords especially to you and consider a little You have told me the Spiritual and Civil Power are distinct that the Popes Power is Spiritual and is not Coactive Why Bellarmin and any that follows him will grant all this But if vve conclude thence That the Pope has nothing to do vvith Temporals they vvill not suffer us but say His Power is indeed of its own nature Spiritual and directly regards only the good of Souls but if Temporals concern that good His Power is extended to them too not directly as if they were its proper object but indirectly as they collaterally fall in and are joyn'd to that which is its proper object So that they intend not that any part of that Authority which I conceive prejudicial to Princes and inconsistent with Government should be taken from him but plainly seek to establish it though another vvay and whereas Others go plainly to work and tell us without more adoe That the Pope is the only Supream Monarch of the Earth These go a little about the bush and say indeed He is not directly Lord of Temporals but come at last to the same and tell us He may as uncontroulably dispose of them as if he were If this be true all you have said is to no purpose and all you can say while you stick to this will not absolve you from inconsistency with Civil Government For 't is a plain case If the Pope may interpose in the disposition of Temporals as often as they have relation to Spirituals that He may interpose alwaies Since of necessity they must and cannot but be alwaies ordered either well or ill and both cases belong to the concern of the Soul And then 't is all one as some body in this case handsomly said whether my eyes be put out by a direct stroke of a Tennis Ball or by Bricol William Rufus was as mortally wounded by the Arrow which glanced as if it had been shot directly at him If Princes may lawfully be depos'd and their Subjects absolv'd from their Allegiance and oblig'd to obey the commands of another and that in Temporals they are no longer Sovereign nor absolute even in Temporals and whether the Power above them be Direct or Indirect Spiritual or not Spiritual so it be a Power and can act they are alwaies unsafe Pray Friend let me have no dodging Tell me plainly Is this the Doctrine of your Church or is it not If it be unless you can shew me That those can be good Subjects and true to their Prince who acknowledge another Power which they are to obey against their Prince and how that Prince is Supream in Temporals who has another above him whose Commands he is to obey in the disposition of those Temporals or if he do not his Subjects are not to obey him I must for all you have said continue in my first thoughts and not believe you tolerable in any Commonwealth If it be not true I think you would deserve very well of your Church to free her from the scandal which the credit of those who hold this and the countenance she gives them brings upon her In all events I beseech you speak plainly for else I must needs think either that your Church teaches you to hold what you are asham'd to own or vvhich is
of the Learned Men who Write in favour of the Pope stick to that way As Bellarmin is the most famous amongst them and most at hand I choose his Arguments believing as he was a Man of great Reading he fail'd not to make use of all that was considerable in those who Writ before him and seeing those who Write since borrow most from him He has Five in his Book De Rom. Pont. and Four in his Answer to Barklay The First are Answered by Barklay and better by Withrington and every one who Writes of this Subject takes notice of them In Answering I make use chiefly of Withrington inserting only upon occasion what I find in others Only to indulge something to my fancy and ease it of the grievous pain of Transcribing I neither tie my self to the order nor preciseness of the Arguments but make entire Arguments of themselves what the Author meant sometimes a proof of some part of an Argument going before While you have the Substance I hope you will allow me a little Variety for my own ease Bellarmin then After he had taught against the Canonists That the Spiritual and Civil Power are in themselves distinct and have different Offices different Ends c. yet when these two meet together then he affirms they make but one Commonwealth in which the Spiritual Power is superiour to the Temporal For saies he there cannot be two Heads and therefore one Power must of necessity be subject to the other when they both Club into one Commonwealth But this they do where the Law of Christ is receiv'd For we being many are one Body in Christ Rom. 12. And in one Spirit we were all baptiz'd into one Body 1 Cor. 12. And because the Members of the same Body must depend one of another and Spirituals cannot be said to depend on Temporals Temporals must depend on Spirituals and be subject to them To this they Answer differently Some granting the Spiritual and Temporal Power make but one Commonwealth affirm the Members independent one of another as the Hand depends not on the Foot nor the Foot on the hand but each free and absolute in their proper Functions are subject only to the Supream Head Christ Others in my opinion more rationally deny the Two Powers club into one Commonwealth and say The Spiritual makes one and the Temporal another and to many others as there are Independent Heads of this Power That the same men in different respects make both these Bodies and that as Clergy and Laity and all not excepting the Prince himself in as much as they are Faithful are subject to the Spiritual Power according to the nature of Spiritual Subjection so the same Laity and Clergy not excepting the Pope himself in as much as they are Citizens and parts of the Temporal Commonwealth are subject to the Temporal Power that is for as much as concerns the Law of God purely and abstracting from Humane Constitutions and such Changes as time has brought into the World For now the Pope is himself an absolute Prince and other Clergy Men have Priviledges and Immunities justly belonging to them When therefore 't is assumed that the Church is one Body they distinguish this word Church and say if it be taken Formally that is the Faithful under the notion of Faithful then indeed they make but one Body but neither doth this Body include both Powers for 't is only the Spiritual to which they are subject as Faithful as Citizens they belong to the Temporal But if the word Church be taken Materially for the Men which make up the Church an Acception something improper but yet such as comprehends both Powers then say they In this sence the Church is not one Body but two or if you vvill twenty as many as there are several Supream Temporal Powers in Christendom One Spiritual in relation to the Spiritual Power and which is properly the Church The rest Temporal in relation to their several Temporal Heads And this Answer as it seems fair in it self and justified by the sence and apprehension of Mankind for France and Spain for example both acknowledge the Pope and are both parts of the Church and that one Body of which the Apostle speaks but he that should therefore think them not to be Two distinct Bodies and Independent Common-wealths would be thought something extravagant so 't is a little more strongly inforc'd against Bellarmin by other parts of his own Doctrine For he teaches elsewhere That Church-men besides that they are Church-men are also Citizens and parts of the Civil Common-wealth and that all Members of every Body must be subject to their respective Head That the Civil and Spiritual Power are in their nature distinct Powers and have distinct Offices and Ends c. and that Christ did distinguish the Dignities and Offices of Pope and Emperour that one should not presume upon the Rights of the other That Christian Princes as well as Infidels acknowledge no Superiour in Temporals since Christ took not away the Rights of any and a King by becoming a Christian loses no Right he had before and the like Besides this Answer seems wonderfully strengthned by some Authorities mentioned in the former Letters Such as Gelasius to the Emperour Anastasius The Prelates of the Church owe you all Obedience And again The Bishops themselves are to obey your Laws and that because there are Two principal Powers by which the World is Governed the Sacred Authority of Bishops and Regal Power Likewise Pope Anastasius to the same Emperour Bishops are subject to the Laws of the Prince in what concerns Public Discipline and Princes to Bishops in the dispensation of the Mysteries and Sacraments according to the famous Canon of Leo the IV. Nos si incompetenter It is to be noted that there are Two Persons by which this world is governed The Regal and Sacerdotal as Kings are Chief in Worldly so Priests in Divine matters Therefore David though by his Regal Vnction he were over Priests and Prophets in affairs of the World yet was under them in those of God Much more might be alledged on this Subject but this I conceive is enough to shew the Answer given to Bellarmin has the support of Authority as well as Reason A Second Argument is from the ends of both Powers whereof one being Eternal the other Temporal happiness because the Eternal happiness is the Supream and Last end of all things Temporal happiness must be subordinate to it And because according to Aristotle where the Ends are subordinate the Faculties likewise are subordinate the Civil Power which aims only at Temporal happiness must be subordinate and subject to the Spiritual which looks after Eternal This Argument they Answer likewise two waies First by granting the whole which they say concludes nothing against them For admitting the Temporal Power to be subordinate to the Spiritual nothing follows more than than 't is under the other according to the Order which the other
sufficient Power cleer the World from Mahumetism and Infidelity and Idolatry which likewise are main obstacles to Salvation and provide for the safety of so many Millions as are lost by them Farther Amongst Christians A man commits a mortal Sin and runs mad upon it Has the Church sufficient Power to restore this man to his Wits that he may Repent and be saved Can She hinder Abortions and bring all Children alive to Baptism And twenty other such Cross Questions they put But to Answer the Argument more precisely They consider this sufficient Power in the Church either in order to it Self or in order to all things necessary to the Effect Considering the Power in it self it is abundantly sufficient for as much as is required on that side but because to the Effect many things are required besides sufficient Power or Efficacy in the Cause as that the Subject be fitly disposed the Cause duly apply'd c. they say a Defect in these things argues no insufficiency in the Power and the Power may be very sufficient for as much as belongs to the Nature of Power and yet the Effect not follow for want of some disposition in the Subject For Example The Sun has sufficient Power to enlighten the whole World the Fire has sufficient power to burn that stack of Wood though the Sun cannot level a Mountain which intercepts the course of his beams nor the Fire has hands to bring the Wood to it or legs to carry it to the Wood. Wherefore they say The Church has Power abundantly sufficient to bring Men to Salvation for as much as is requisite on the part of Power but 't is a wild conceit to think She can remove all obstacles which Nature or Chance casts in her way to hinder the exercise of that Power And if one of those Obstacles happen to be the Wickedness of a Prince the Churches sufficient Power to Save men can no more take Him away than the Suns sufficient power to shine level a Mountain What her sufficient Power or Means to Save men are we may learn from those who certainly best know the end of the Church and Means to attain it the first Planters of Christianity who by there Example have instructed us That efficacious Preaching and more efficacious Living according to the Holy Doctrine they Preach'd Charity and Patience and humble Zeal are the sufficient Means which have prevailed upon the Converted vvorld and when they are in Gods fit time duly apply'd vvill be as sufficient for the rest In the mean time we may learn of Bellarmin that God vvill have a care of his Church and whatever he think must think our selves That Prayer is as good a remedy against a Bad Prince as a Wicked Popes And therefore that Proposition which assumes that a Deposing Power is necessary or that the Churches Power would be Insufficient without it they flatly deny From the same Head Bellarmin Argues again Every Commonwealth because it has Power sufficient to preserve it self and bring its Subjects to Temporal happiness may command another Commonwealth which is not subject to it to cease from doing injury to her and hinder her from the prosecution of her just Ends and if it refuse to Obey may Depose the Prince of it and set up another who will be more Just in case there be no other way to avoid wrong from it Therefore much more may the Spiritual Commonwealth command the Temporal which is subject to it and Depose the Prince in case She cannot otherwise compass Her End the Salvation of Souls And this Argument they treat not more favourably than the former For they say first It assumes plain Contradiction vvhen it puts two Commonwealths both independent and free and yet puts a Power in the one to command the other which is to make that other Subject and not Free Again It assumes without any reason and against all Truth That the Temporal Commonwealth is subject to the Spiritual which they will by no means admit unless perhaps of a Spiritual Subjection and that too of the persons as Faithful not as a common-wealth in which respect every absolute Commonwealth is absolutely free from all Subjection to any but God Farther they retort it as the former and say It concludes as well a Power in the Temporal Commonwealth over the Spiritual as in the Spiritual over the Temporal For say they The Temporal is a perfect Common-wealth too and has Power sufficient to attain its End Wherefore if the Spiritual hinder her in the prosecution of Her ends She may command the Spiritual Commonwealth to surcease and if the Spiritual Prince prove Disobedient depose him and set up another since the Spiritual Commonwealth is as subject to the Temporal in Temporals as the Temporal to the Spiritual in Spirituals But to Answer the Argument more directly they deny that this forcible proceeding of one Independent Commonwealth with another argues any Superiority or Subjection in either What they do in this kind if it be well done being justified by the force of Nature and light of Reason and lawless Law of Necessity vvhich teaches Force to be then fitly us'd when nothing but Force will compass an End otherwise necessary Otherwise this kind of Power is no other than a Strong man has to take away the Purse of a Weak one and there is no doubt but whoever has it may if he vvill make use of it and so the Pope if he be strong enough may certainly Depose a Prince as a Prince may a Pope But they wonder Bellarmin should be so little considerative as instead of a Power of just Authority to talk of a power of Strength in which they think he has done the Church but little service for if She come to vye with Princes in this kind of Power the Material Sword which belongs to them will in all likelyhood wound the Spiritual Outward-man more sensibly than the Spiritual Sword will the Carnal man Mean time they conceive he take a bad Method to conclude an Authoritative Power in the Church by the example of a Power in Commonwealths which is not Authority but Strength Another Argument Bellarmin makes from the obligation of Christianity in this manner It is not lawful for Christians to endure an Infidel or Heretic Prince of that Prince endeavour to draw his Subjects to Heresie or Infidelity But it belongs to the Pope to judge whether he be guilty of so drawing them or no wherefore to the Pope it belongs to Judge whether he ought to be Deposed or no. Because he could not but foresee his first Proposition would be deny'd him he provided Proofs which before I meddle with I must inform you what they say to thus much of the Argument for they are no where smarter This say they is without more adoe to put all Kingdoms into the Popes hands and make him as Absolute as the most extravagant of Canonists can fancy him For since there are but two things considerable
prepared to lose an Earthly Kingdom But 't is ridiculous to say I am ready to be depriv'd of my Kingdom if I renounce my Faith but not by any Sentence of Man but will have Sentence pronounct against me by the Angels in Heaven The Church would be very imprudent to receive into her bosom a Man who would without controul afflict the Members of the Church and not suffer the Faithful to be freed from his Tyranny by any Authority on Earth Thus Bellarmin more zealously than wisely say his Adversaries Such fine discourses never vvere nor are ever likely to be made but by the King of Vtopia Kings vvho receive Christianity think not of such subtleties nor imagine they are to treat with their Spiritual Instructors vvith those nice Cautions which they use in making Leagues and Treaties of War and Peace with their fellow Kings To make Protestations and other provisions of Security against Chances they never do and none but a man cunning in Chican ever would think of as if Baptism were a bargain made in Law wherein if by misfortune the Writings be not exactly drawn a man forfeits his Title to his Purchase or a man becomes liable to Eternal damnation for the fault of a Scrivener is a conceit of a more subtle reach than is like to proceed from the simplicity with which men deal in the concerns of Eternity However if Bellarmin do put such thoughts into the head of a Pagan he may very justly protest I desire to be made a Christian and intend to live like one and submit to the Discipline of that Law which I am going to imbrace but I mean to keep my Regal dignity and Prorogatives inviolate and do not intend to be put by Baptism into a worse condition than now I am in My Subjects are now my Subjects and I intend they alwaies shall be so For my self if I deserve it I refuse not to be expell'd from that Society of which I shall have made my self unworthy But as I had my Subjects before Baptism I will not that Baptism shall take them from me I am a King while I am no Christian and if I cease to be a Christian will not therefore cease to be a King God not Baptism gave me a Crown and none but God shall take it away A Pagan say they may warrantably declare thus much and warrantably even according to Bellarmin himself who teaches that the Law of Christ deprives no man of any right and when a King becomes Christian he loses no Right or Dominion but gets a new right to the Kingdom of Heaven for else the Benefit of Christ would be a prejudice to Kings and Grace destroy Nature As for the Comparison betwixt him who pretends to the Freedom of a City and him who pretends to Baptism the Protest which Bellarmin enters in his behalf is indeed ridiculous and overthrown by his very pretence for a Member of a City must by his very being a Member be subject to the Laws and Magistrates of that City And so a King if he become a Member of the Spiritual Commonwealth becomes subject to the Laws and Magistrates and Punishments of that Commonwealth which are Spiritual and may be inflicted on a King as well as other men considering their own Natures purely and abstracting from Circumstances which in the case of Kings are generally such that if it be lawful it is seldom expedient to use them but for Temporal punishments He is himself the Head of that Commonwealth which should inflict them and must either punish himself or cannot be punisht but by God So that to say by his becoming a Member of the Spiritual Commonwealth he makes Himself liable to Temporal punishments is to say in the Case of him who pretends to be made a Citizen That by making himself a Member of that Corporation he subjects himself to the Laws of another But to leave these speculations to them who Write of New Atlantis and the Isle of Pines The Argument say they is doubly faulty for it assumes what is not true and concludes what does not follow though the Antecedent were true First they deny any such bargains are made in Baptism There is indeed an express whether Promise or Purpose to Renounce Satan and his Pomps but of Renouncing the Right of Kings there is not any expression vvhich sounds like it and for secret bargains they are so secret if there be any that they are known to none but Bellarmin They have lain hid for many Ages and do so still for any credit they give this Argument He would infer it out of the disposition which our Saviour in S. Luke requires in him who vvill be his Disciple And this disposition of preferring his Love and Service before all things they acknowledge is necessary in Baptism and that Man unfit for it vvho does not firmly purpose so to do But the Question is If the King chance to break his good Purpose is He therefore liable to this particular punishment of being Depos'd This particular Condition must enter into the bargain or nothing will come of it Otherwise our God-fathers and God-mothers have undertaken for all of us that vve shall do all that the greatest King Promises in Baptism And we all forfeit the Surety they have given and break the Promise solemnly made in our behalf and sin daily and grievously Can we therefore without injury be turn'd out of our Estates We must be prepar'd as vvell as any King to lay down our lives for the Faith of Christ if for Fear or other frailty we fall even to Idolatry is it therefore lawful to knock us on the head or if it vvere Can the Church or Priest before whom vve made this Promise which vve have broken give Sentence of bloud against us How justly soever we deserve to be punisht yet this punishment is not just because we never submitted to it in Baptism or any other way and if we did the Church of all the vvorld can the least inflict it But the truth is no such punishment vvas ever thought of either by the Givers or Receivers of Baptism If vve do not continue constant to our Renouncing of Satan Satan vvill take possession of us again to whom the Church may vvhen there is just occasion by her Power deliver us And if Satan be not punishment enough even for a King and the Wickedest King that ever was or will be I am mightily mistaken Bellarmin therefore vvas less considerative than vvould be expected when he talks every where as if Kings unless they were liable to be Depos'd would be vvithout punishment Methinks Excommunication might serve turn Excommunication vvhich as himself saies L. 3. de Laic C. 2. is a punishment greater than Temporal death It being more horrible as himself Cites S. Austin to be delivered to Satan by Excommunication than to endure the Sword or Fire or be devoured by Wild Beasts Death is the last of punishments with us of the Temporal
Doctrine which they are commissionated by Christ to teach but as found out by their own or other mens whether industry or luck For these Pastors and Doctors cease not to be men by becoming Pastors and Doctors and men cannot be hindred from doing like men and using their reason and discoursing as well as others and now and then as ill In which cases though the material men be Pastors and Doctors yet now they act not as Pastors and Doctors but barely as men Daily conversation furnishes us with a hundred examples of the like nature A Judg for example is a Judg as long as his Commission lasts but how few of the mans actions belong to the Judg He governs his Children as a Father his Servants as a Master he discourses as a Scholar he eats and drinks and sleeps as a meer man 'T is the Judg who does all these things But certainly if he have a bad palate for example and chuse unwholesom food for sophisticated wine none will think he makes that choice in vertue of his Commission or that the Prince or State are concern'd in the errors of his Palate So 't is with Pastors and Doctors In what they act by vertue of the Commission given them by Christ so far they are Pastors and Doctors in other things meer men which men are indeed Pastors and Doctors but extend not that Authority to things not included in their Commission When they tell us this Doctrine we have receiv'd from our Predecessors and they from Christ and tell us this with an universality of consent both for time and place we must hear and obey Christ in them whose commission they execute But when they discourse lay down their assertions and bring their proofs by Bellarmin's favor we have no more obligation to be led by them then the strength of their proof layes upon us For now they are no more Pastors and Doctors then the Judg is a Judg when he tells a story or delivers his opinion in a point of Law by way of discourse and without giving sentence For my part I conceive the Church so far from being engaged by the opinion of 70 men though they be all Pastors and Doctors that I believe it very possible that all the material Pastors and all the Doctors in the Church and all the Sheep and Scholars too may be perswaded of a thing which the Church taken as a Church neither believes nor has any thing to do with And I think that such a case not only possibly may be but actually has happened as in the belief of the Antipodes the motion of the earth and perhaps twenty such things even at this present The truth is if any one should put me to it I do not well know how to prove it But let us for once suppose there was a time when there was no man in the Church more knowing than S. Austin and that the consent against the Antipodes was so common and universal that there was not so much as any one who held otherwise I conceive it would be a very false inference if any should from thence conclude that the Church at that time held there were no Antipodes For 't is a plain case that Church imports Faith and Faith a derivation from Christ and since 't is known that he taught nothing of the Antipodes 't is clear that no opinion concerning them can belong to Faith or the Church Whoever they be who hold for or against them or however they may belong to the Church in other respects in this particular she has nothing to do with him nor they with her For now they act not as believers but as Schollars and 't is only as believers that they belong to the Church for the Chuch is a Congregation of faithful T is true these believers are many of them Schollars too but when they play the Scholars have no priviledg nor security against error from Christ or the Church but must look to their discourses and stick to their Learning in which if they fail as they very well may and often do 't is at their own perils for the Church is no farther engaged than in what they take from her and she warrants to be received from Christ But this point is already discourst at large in my first letter and the little I have said here peradventure is more then needs For this Authority which Bellarmin would pin upon the Church is no more then the sayings of so many men whereof one half he recites and disproves himself the other half depend upon the strength of their Arguments which are the only means by which other men can judg whether they deserve more credit then their fellows and when all is done are contradicted by twice as many as learned and as famous And this I should think so far from the Authority of the Church that 't is well if it be any Authority at all And so much for the first Argument The second is this We prove it secondly by the Extrav Vnam sanctam de Major Obed. Where we are taught the sword is under the sword and temporal authority subject to the spiritual power and that if the earthly power deviate it shall be judged by the spiritual an inferor spiritual by a superior and the supream spiritual only by God Neither does it make against this that the definition of this Decretal seems revok'd by Clemen 5. in the Extrav Meruit de Privileg For Clement did not revoke the extravagant of Boniface but informed us that it defined no new thing but declared the ancient obligation which men have to obey and be subject to the Apostolick Sea Now I should think whether one Pope made a Decree and another did not revoke it matters not much unless this Decree determine the point in question And 't is a clear case there is not a word of deposition in this extravagant of Boniface 8 neither has Bellarmin remembred to tell us how 't is implyed which yet seems a material circumstance That which he says we are taught by it is that temporal authority is subject to spiritual power may be judged by it if it do amiss but the supream spiritual Power by none but God All this may be very true and the Doctrine of deposition very false When the temporal Sword is drawn by passion and strikes with in justice as to instance in an example us'd by himself when Theodosius caused a number of innocent people to be slain at Thessalonica a less man than the Pope had spiritual power enough to judg and punish this temporal power or in plain English to shut the Church doors and not admit the Emperor to a fellowship in Christian duties till he had done what became a good Christian repented and made satisfaction Here the temporal Sword was under the spiritual Sword judg'd and punisht by it and all this while no deposition nor thought of any such thing Of all who had their share in
Interest of every Commonwealth that all the members be heartily concern'd for the maintenance of Law because it is the main security of Liberty and Property and all worldly goods But in our case the Law instead of securing threatens our Liberties and Properties and Lives nor can we be concerned in the preservation of it without being unconcerned in the preservation of our selves For my life I cannot imagin by what Policy you are guided to lay upon never so inconsiderable a party a necessity so strong as that of self-preservation to wish an alteration of Law The sword of Justice should be the Protection and comfort of Good men and a terrour only to the bad and certainly you do not think us all such I believe our greatest fault is that you apprehend us desirous of innovation But pray can you with reason blame us if we desire to live less uneasily I am very certain there are none in the Nation more heartily affected to the liberty and all advantages of it than we are by inclination and should more appear by all justifiable actions if you would let us live with any comfort in it Again can it be for your interest to force part of the Subjects of England alwayes to depend on Forreigners by their interposition to seek relief from their pressures and in return be affected to them and inclined by way of gratitude to promote their desires Can it be your interest to oblige us to send our Children beyond Sea to be bred up to forreign customs and inclinations and suck in principles which you dislike To have so much money as they and so many religious of both sexes require carried out of the Land and spent in other Countreys To complain of Seminaries and increase their number For if we cannot maintain our Children at home we must send them abroad and they are not now to begin to live on Alms if we cannot send money with them and that more plentifully than we perhaps should allow them But to let these things alone do you think it for your credit not to do as you would be done by to gain the imputation of persecuters persecuters of a Religion profest by most of your neighbours and of a Church from which you derive your selves For I hope you do not think to avoid that imputation because what you do you do by Law The primitive Christians suffered all by Law and by Authority and yet are thought persecuted and Martyrs even by your selves Nor were Q. Mary's proceedings without Law and Law not made by her for the present occasion but in force before she came to the Crown You have reason to reproach her times but then sure you have the same reason not to bring the same reproach on your own for burning is not much worse than hanging and quartering If you are perswaded Persecution or if that word dislike you Punishment for Religion advisable at least consider that our case is different from that of other dissenters We changed not from the Law but the Law from us We are to the Reformation as Judaism and Paganism to the Gospel before it The Primitive Christians when Authority came to be on their side never made use of it to work upon the conscience of those whose perswasions in Religion were more antient than their own They imploy'd instruction and example and added the allurement of worldly preferment disposing of places of Trust and Profit only to Christians But they came not to force Me thinks you should not condemn the practice of the Primitive times and use us worse than they thought fit and I think lawful to use Pagans and Jews You might too in my opinion consider whether it be for your advantage to let fall the plea you have so long and so universally maintained that you punish not for Religion but Treason When we ask where this Treason lies the answer alwaies is that it lies in our perswasions concerning the Pope in whom we believe a power inconsistent with the safety of Princes or fidelity of Subjects This the person of Honour against S. C. makes the only cause of jealousy or suspition of our Fidelity which may prove dangerous to the Kingdom and against which the laws are provided This the Execution of Justice This every body assigns for the Treason laid to our charge When this is taken away there remains nothing that I know but Religion for which we are to be punish't I hope I have declared my mind sufficiently in this point and cleared my self and those of the same judgment with me from all guilt of this Treason If you will notwithstanding punish us you may if you please but I am sure you cannot say you punish us for Treason The laws being as they are it may shew very strange to pretend favour from them but yet confiding in the authority of this Honourable Person who says they were provided against Opinions which I have disclaimed and considering the laws themselves mention withdrawing Subjects from their natural Obedience 23. Eliz. 3. Jac. as the ground of their severity I hope it will not misbecome me to wish you would be more guided by their intention than Letter The intention of laws I think is acknowledged their best Interpreter were the judgment of this Person of Honour of value with you I should not doubt you would allow some equity in my wishes for I am sure I am not within the compass of that intention But I am not so vain as to appeal to any thing but mercy As nothing more becomes me to ask so nothing more becomes you to shew though truly I think it not more for your Honour than interest in this case Certainly you would not have these Principles gain strength against which you testify so much aversion Why then do you do all you can to make them pass for Principles of Religion For while you treat equally those who disclaim and those who hold them and put no difference betwixt them and points of Faith you bid fairly to perswade people that there is none and that they ought to suffer as much for the one as the other Methinks your own experience should instruct you that 't is no easy thing to pluck up any perswasions which are thought to spring from the root of Religion let them be never so false or wicked and that it concerns you sufficiently not to let more than are be thought incorporated with it If this import you not can it at least be for your advantage that those who would comply with you should be in a much worse condition than those who will not and this purely for their compliance The equality which you shew hinders not the cases of the one and the other from being very unequal and the disadvantage of the inequality lies on that side which is inclin'd to you These are in the worst case of any of our communion For the rest suffer only from you these from you and us too Pray reflect
a little how the world has gone and goes with those who gratify you in this matter What was the event of that unwearied constancy which the learned Withrington shew'd in it He lost his good name his Friends all comforts of life all sweetness of society with those of his own communion and had not so much as Liberty from you but liv'd and dy'd a Prisoner Walsh succeeds him in learning in fidelity in constancy and in all likelyhood fortune He has appear'd so far in this business that I believe he thinks it not safe to appear in any part of the world where the Pope bears sway and yet for ought I know has as little security at home as abroad His Liberty and Life are at the mercy of every informer it not being in the power of any Judge before whom he shall be brought to save him from the punishment appointed for Treason Harold is another who has appeared in this cause with the same success He lives confin'd in a convent of his own order in or near Bruxels because he refuses to retract the Irish remonstrance without an express saving of fidelity to his King This by the Congregation de Propaganda at Rome was judged a captious exception and the man is by the Internuncio of Bruxels confin'd against his will and notwithstanding the permission of his own Superiors to retire elsewhere Coppinger and the rest of the regular Remonstrants in Ireland to say nothing of other and those many and grievous vexations are either actually banisht by the late Proclamation against Bishops and Regulars or live in extream danger and fear of being discovered and expos'd to the law by those who hate them for their constancy to the Remonstrance And this is the sate of all who gratify you with those testimonies of Loyalty which you are perpetually urging Time was when you objected against me that we had an unintelligible way of Government among us Permit me to say I can as little understand yours He was a wise Prince who caused the Oath of Allegiance to be made with design to distinguish the dangerous Principles which he thought concurred to the Powder Treason from others which were innocent Who can understand why those who by that Distinction are found on the right side should always be in worse condition than those who are on the wrong Did K. James or the Parliament when they establisht a Distinction by Law mean to find out the Innocent by their distinction that they might be the worse for their Innocence To impute Danger and Treason to one part and punish both and the not-dangerous and not-Traitors more For so they are though not by you This is the effect of your Distinction though sure it was never the design The Act seems made to distinguish the Treason for which you say we suffer from the Religion for which you say we do not And when all is done they are not so much as exempt from the punishment of Traitors who by this Act are exempted from the guilt of Treason Withrington was no Traitor his actions and writings clear him sufficiently Walsh is no Traitor on the contrary he has given proofs of Fidelity which few could and fewer perhaps would And yet the Law looks on him and may to day or to morrow pass on him as a Traitor Truly it is not intelligible at least to my dulness how it should be for your interest that things should be carried in this manner This I know that while they are so few will comply with you I mean where with a safe conscience they may For Hopes and Fears are the main motives which carry human nature and 't is not to be expected people should gratifie you when they have nothing to hope and more to fear than when they do not For my own part I think you very unreasonable to quarrel at me for being conceal'd and single At least I am not so unreasonable as to court any man by joyning with me to run the fate of Walsh and Withrington and will avoid it my self as long as I can I relish not their uncomfortable condition finding it uncomfortable enough to live in perpetual fear of the Laws But I declare they shall not take hold on me for Treason For I again disclaim those positions which you say are Treasonable More I could and would say to you if none saw my letters but your self But thus much I profess to all the world and besides that I am Your very humble Servant This following Quotation out of Dr. H. Ferne late Bishop of Chester should have been inserted with those other Quotations taken out of Dr. Stillingfleet c. which you have before at the end of the Protestant Gentleman's Letter pag. 7. But the Book of the said Dr. Ferne which has it came not to hand soon enough to insert it there And yet being so directly and fully to purpose I would not omit giving it here I Believe and do suppose there are some Popish Priests who in the simplicity of their hearts and out of meer Conscience of Religion do labour the propagation of it whilst others more directly are guilty of Seditious and Treasonable Practices It is my wish there could be a distinction made between the one and the other that the punishment which the Law adjudges all Priests to that are found within the Land might only fall upon them who are indeed guilty of such practices which being so frequently found in their predecessors and the State being not able to distinguish between them who are all Missionaries of Rome caused those Laws to be made for the security of Prince and State And if they that come into the Land without any Treasonable intent do suffer for it they must thank their fellows as the above-mentioned Seculars do the Jesuits whose restless attempts forced the State to forbid them all entrance into the Land under pain of Treason To conclude it is not Religion nor the Function nor any Ministerial Act belonging to it that is punished in Romish Priests but Treason and Seditious practices to which Religion Sacraments Ministery of Reconciliation and all that is reputed Holy are made to serve and all this to advance and secure the Papal Vsurpation Dr. H. Ferne in his Book entituled Certain Considerations of present Concernment touching This Reformed Church of England Printed in London 1653. Chap. 5. Paragraph 9. Pag. 169. FINIS The Fifteenth and Sixteenth OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun and Benjamin Tooke at the Ship in St. Paul's Church-yard 1679. FRIEND I Have got a new Flea in my Ear which you must needs pull out It is like enough my importunity may not be over-welcom and you