of this Church Fiftly I desired to be resolued Ibidem q. 22. whether all the errours of Barrowisme do not follow and may be concluded of M. Cartwrights and his consorts assertions and whether it bee a matter fit that these men should deale with that sort of sectaries and not rather be constrained publikely to recant their owne foule errors All these questions M. Cartwright answereth with silence Sixtly Ibidem q. 24. I mooued a question whether M. Cartwright and his consorts do not either flatly deny or call in question the principall points of her Maiesties supremacie and whether they take not from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the Church likewise authoritie to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from Ecclesiastical courts to cal synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuoure to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statute of the princes supremacie and prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church of England and of her Maiesties subiects if M. Cartwright meant to haue satisfied the doubt concerning his opinion and conceit of her Maiesties supremacie as he goeth about it he ought to haue answered this question directly and particulerly not doing it who seeth not that he slideth away in cloudes of generalitie and priuate conceites of his owne fancy concerning this matter Seuenthly it was demaunded Answere to the petit q. 26. 29. whether by M. Cartwrights rules in those places where they are receiued the Church goods are not spoiled and the liuings of the ministery deuided and rewards of learning taken away and also whether if the same should here be receiued the like wrack would not be wrought and her Maiestie depriued of tenthes and subsidies and a great part of her reuenues and of many faithfull and loyall seruitors which by those lawes being made vnable to liue would also be made vnable to doe her seruice Hee hath nothing to answere that will make for him Eightly it was asked Ibidem qu. 30. whether M. Cartwright and his followers haue not in all places where they haue bene receiued made sectes and diuisions and hardened mens hearts and filled their minds with pride and humorous vanities to which he saith nothing Percase he knoweth it is no slander Ninthly Ibidem qu. 31. I demaunded whether it be not dangerous for this state that M. Cartwright and his partakers haue so much vrged this Church to imitate the examples of Geneua and Scotland considering the dangerous courses which they tooke and the hard effects that followed of them It cannot be denied and therefore M. Cartwright holdeth his peace 10. Ibidem qu. 33. The question was asked whether that the subuersion of the state of the Church which foloweth necessarily of M. Cartwrights disciplinarian deuises is not a great scandale and hinderance to the reformation of true Religion in other places It is most apparent and therefore M. Cartwright forbeareth to answere 11. Ibidem q. 34. It is demaunded whether M. Cartwright doe not as well subiect Princes to excommunication as Sanders or Allen or other Papistes and whether his doctrine is not as pernicious to princes authoritie as theirs It must needs be granted and therefore he passeth by and saith iust nothing 12. Answere to the petit qu. 49. A doubt is made whether M. Cartwright doth beleeue that subiects may rebel against such Kings as they accompt Papists or tyrants as some of that side haue taught and hee passeth by in a graue silence 13. Ibidem qu. 51. It is asked whether M. Cartwright and his felowes haue not assembled in synodes or rather conuenticles and there enacted decreed certeine rules orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and also subscribed them procured others to subscribe them and by all possible meanes gone about without authoritie to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her Maiestie and ancient gouernment of Christ his Church This is most true and therefore passed ouer in silence 14. Idemaunded also whether they haue not in their said orders Ibidem qu. 52. which they call holy discipline taken al authoritie in Church causes from the Christian magistrate and giuen it to their consistories and synodes in so much that the magistrate is not once mentioned in that platforme and further I would know how the sufferance of these proceedings may stand with the maiestie of a Prince and with gouernment Likewise it may be demanded of M. Cartwright how he that hath bound himselfe to this forme of discipline by his word subscription may be thought to allow of her Maiesties supreme gouernment which the lawes of this land doe giue vnto her In this case he is as silent as Harpocrates 15. Ibidem q. 53. I desired to knowe whether M. Cartwright haue not taught that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their holy discipline as they call it is neither increased nor diminished whether the prince be Christian or heathen and likewise if he do not thinke or haue not taught that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one and that a Christian king hath no more to doe with the Church gouernment then any pagan prince or Emperour hath but he will tell vs nothing 16. Ibidem q. 54. I asked M. Cartwright whether he his adherents haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent authoritie or allowance and likewise without her authoritie or knowledge haue not both made secret meetings and established diuers newe orders and broched newe opinions and all contrary to the doctrine faith and gouernment of this Church of England this string M. Cartwright dare not touch 17. Ibidem q. 55. I asked him whether hee was not presumptuous if no more in doing these things and whether he ought not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults Likewise it may bee here asked of him whether hauing both in Fenners booke and his replies and writings taught written and allowed diuers points of false-doctrine he is not to be brought to a publike recantation for satisfaction of those weake ones that hee hath offended will it please him yet to answere this question directly 18. Answere to the petit qu. 57. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright swore truely in the Starre-chamber when he affirmed on his oth that he neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery monarchie there ought to be certain magistrates like to the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to controll and depose the king and to proceed further against him seeing he called M. Fenners booke wherein these points are expresly set downe the principles and grounds of heauenly Canaan and doth not onely without all exception allow it but also highly commend it this is also a point which he dare
not answere directly and plainly 19. Ibidem qu. 58. I would also vnderstand whether M. Cartwright and his fellowes haue not confessed on their othes taken in the Starre-chamber that notwithstanding all that care that hath bene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers points and whether they did wisely to subscribe to such orders or dutifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused imperfect platforme of gouernment to the Parliament that it might be confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and last of all whether it were wisdome to dissolue a state already setled to embrace a gouernment wherupon the authors themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke euer will be and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice doth not he that holdeth his peace consent 20. Ibidem qu. 59. I desired to heare whether M. Cartwright and his companions do not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the Parliament for the receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernment commaunded by Gods word and therefore do vtterly disclaime by a most necessary implication her Maiestie to haue any preeminence and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they do not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuil magistrate but yeeld all that power to their synodes classes and consistories It may also be further demaunded of him how this forme may be deemed perfect seeing they confesse they were not yet resolued vpon diuers points M. Cartwright answereth nothing 21. I demanded whether M. Cartwright did not vnderstand Answere to the petit qu. 60. that Copinger pretended an extraordinary calling which moued him to attempt matters that might proue very dangerous It might also haue bene demaunded of him whether albeit he would not be acquainted with the particulers of his lewd purposes yet he knew not that something was in hand for his and others deliuerance out of prison and for the aduancement of the consistoriall gouernment M. Cartwright standeth mute 22. Ibidem qu. 61. I doubted whether M. Cartwright mainteyning the excommunication of princes by the eldership and other points of Fenners booke doeth not mainteine doctrine as dangerous as Sanders Rosse and Allen that mainteine the excommunication of princes by the Pope and the Popes proceedings and yet M. Cartwright resolueth me not 23. Ibidem q. 75. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright did reueile to any magistrate the letters of Copinger or his strange deseignements but he deigneth not to satisfie any such demaund 24. Ibidem qu. 92. I asked whether M. Cartwrights answere to the Rhemish annotations vpon the new Testament cōtaine not diuers points of doctrine contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this Church and all sound diuinitie and why if it bee otherwise he doth not subiect it to the censures of the learned and what saith hee nothing 25. Ibidem qu. 93. I desired to know whether M. Cartwright or some friend of his did not threaten excōmunication against a certeine marchant at Middlebourg if he would not desist pursuing a seruant of his that had wasted his goods and whether such courses bee allowable All or most of these questions M. Cartwright passeth ouer in silence and doeth not so much as touch them in his apologie how nigh soeuer they touch him Beside these questions diuers other matters were asked of of M. Cartwright in the Starre-chamber whereto he hath either answered nothing at all or nothing to purpose Being demaunded Interrog 2. how far forth he hath affirmed or alowed the Queenes authoritie Ecclesiasticall to bee restreined by the iniunctions vnder colour whereof diuers allow and sweare to the supremacie that otherwise cōdemne it M. Cartwright saith he is not bound to answere the secret of his opinion belike he feareth to disclose Being demaunded Interrog 3. whether he hath mainteined or allowed that the king being no pastor doctor nor elder is to be accompted among the Church gouernours and whether in a well ordered Church the prince may ordeine orders and ceremonies in the Church M. Cartwright saith hee is not bound to answere and being reexamined as the Iudges determined hee ought he persisted in his former obstinacie a plaine argument of his peruerse opinion concerning her Maiesties gouernment in causes Ecclesiasticall Being demaunded Interrog 4. whether he did acknowledge the Ecclesiastical gouernment established by her Maiestie to be lawful and allowable by Gods word M. Cartwright answered that he tooke not himselfe bound to answere and so persisted being reexamined ergo he thought it not lawfull Being demaunded Interrog 5. whether he would acknowledge the Sacraments to be duly and sincerely ministred as they be ordeined to be ministred by the booke of common prayer M. Cartwright answered that he was not bound to answere and reexamined still refused to yeeld any further answere doeth he then thinke them to be sincerely and duly administred in our Church Being demaunded whether hee thought those that fauourd not the discipline to be accompted Christian brethren in the same sence Interrog 6. and as properly as men of his opinion M. Cartwright refused to answere as to a matter impertinent behold I beseech you how he accompteth of vs that mislike his new disciplinarian deuises Being examined whether he thought the Church of England refusing the presbyteriall gouernment to be the true Church in as proper sence Interrog 7. as that Church that embraceth the same M. Cartwright according to his olde tune refused to answere and said he was not bound Being demaunded Interrog 22. how farre he hath affirmed that without breach of the peace of the church of England as it is now gouerned men might treat of alteratiō of lawes proceed to practise the new discipline he maketh a sleight vnsufficient answere Being demanded at how many classicall or synodical assemblies he had bene present Interrog 23. 24. and what was treated in them hee either staggreth or answereth not Being demanded Interrog 24. whether in their assemblies they had not treated and concluded diuers matters direct contrary to the Ecclesiasticall lawes as for example that vnpreaching ministers are no ministers that no obedience is to bee giuen to Archbishops or Bishops that their ordination was to be receiued onely as a ciuile ordinance M. Cartwright answereth that they were treated of but not concluded and prayeth not to be pressed to answer further viz. how farre these matters were liked of which argueth his dislike of Ecclesiasticall lawes and presumption in determining against them Being demaunded whether he had not treated Answere to the interrogat in Starre-chamber Interrog 27. or propounded certaine meanes of maintenance for Archbishops and Bishops deanes and other officers and ministers Ecclesiastical hauing
So you count the prince as a simple fellow and as a poore gardener among the magnificoes in your elderships You say he may haue a voyce call a counsell and appoint times to meete but he 1 2. lib. 2. p. 157. 156. may neither iudge nor make orders but ought to confirme and execute the decrees of the coūsels And do not the Papists the like It is most apparant both in our owne countreymens writings as in 2 Devisib monar lib. 2. c. 3. Sanders and 3 Confut. ap p. 304. Harding and in 4 Bellar. de magistr others also If then the Papistes sure you haue no good cōceit of her Maiesties supremacie And this 5 In a certeine epistle concerning M. Cartur reply M. Whitaker and others haue noted before me lest you imagine me to be the author of this charge Fiftly being demaunded by me whether the disciplinarians whose leader and as it were oracle you are do not in effect deny the principall points of her Maiesties supremacie and take from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the Church and right to nominate Bishops and to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from Ecclesiasticall courts likewise authoritie to call and gouerne synodes and other prerogatiues and rights giuen to the prince by the statutes and lawes of England and finally whether you doe not endeuour to bring in forreigne lawes iurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacie and her Maiesties prerogatiue you answere nothing Which is nothing els but a plaine confession that you dare not directly and in plaine termes declare your opinion concerning the foresaid matters and doe indeede abridge her Maiestie of a great part of her royal authoritie Lastly when you were called vpon your othe in the Starre-chamber to answere to diuers points of her supremacie you shew your selfe to haue a peruerse opinion and therefore dare not answere directly Being 6 Interrog 3. demanded whether you haue not taught or allowed that the prince being neither pastour nor elder is to bee accompted among the gouernours of the Church or among those that are to be gouerned and also whether in a well ordered Church he may ordeine orders and ceremonies therein doe you not say for all answere that you are not bound to answere and do you not persist therein Now how can it be supposed that you allow the prince to be supreme gouernor that will not acknowledge him to be any gouernor of the Church at all or howe can it be said you allow the points of her Maiesties supremacie that will not confesse she hath power to make orders or to ordeine ceremonies for the Church True it is that you offer to sweare to the supremacie so likewise doeth Fecknam I doe here presently saith 1 Fecknam to Bishop Horne Fecknam offer my selfe to receiue a corporall othe vpon the Euangelistes that I doe verily thinke and am perswaded in my conscience that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this Realme and of all other her Maiesties dominions c. and that shee hath vnder God the souereintie and rule ouer all maner persons Ecclesiasticall and temporall And yet he doeth not beleeue the seuerall points of her Maiesties authoritie nor acknowledge them So likewise it may be you will acknowledge her Maiesties authoritie in generall termes and yet wil not acknowledge the seuerall points of her authoritie You doe also offer to sweare to the supremacie but you haue a peruerse interpretatiō by which you ouerthrow all the chiefe points of it in effect Your pretence is the interpretation of the iniunction which kinde of bad dealing and meaning you detected sufficiently in your answere to the 2. interrogatory in the Starre-chamber For being demaunded howe farre foorth you haue affirmed or allowed the Queenes authoritie Ecclesiasticall to berestreined by the iniunctions you say you are not bound to answere By which it appeareth that you thinke the iniunctions restreine her authoritie and that so farre as you dare not tell vs what you thinke Wherefore if in deede your opinion be sound cōcerning her Maiesties supremacie answere these matters directly and tell vs what she may do what she may not doe by the lawes of your discipline and whether you meane to holde your former opinions or renounce them For whatsoeuer you sweare your bookes and the Queenes authoritie giuen her by the lawes of this land cannot stand together M. Cartwright answere being charged to haue highly commended M. Fenners booke which 1 Fenneri Theolog Sac. lib. 5. p. 187. giueth authoritie to inferiour persons to restraine their souereigne as did the ephori in Sparta I 2 You vtterly mistake it take it M. Fenner giueth no such authoritie but onely where the lawes of the land doe establish such an authoritie as the ephori in 3 The ephori were of Sparta the city not Lacedemonia the countrey Lacedemonia had and if M. Fenner did yet how doth my epistle commendatorie set before his booke 4 Because you allowe it and commend it and set it out make me of his iudgement as if he that commendeth a booke iustifieth whatsoeuer is in the booke or as if notwithstanding M. Fenners 5 And more presumption made notorious by his extrauagant diuinity singular learning which for his age many I doubt not both at home and abroad do esteeme you allow it and disallow it to or can you deny that you commended his rules as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 coelestis I 6 CanCanaan might not or doe not differ from him in some things conteined in his booke besides hee himselfe confessing that by oth in the Starre-chamber I haue disauowed the allowance of any such opinion which hee fathereth of M. Fenner let it be considered with 7 With a good minde to shew your contradictions and how hardly you are drawen to obedience what minde he so often rubbeth vpon this point and both for this and the former charge I leaue it to be considered with what 8 What ciuill honesty haue you to charge me with slandering you or vrge me to moue these matters Christian modestie M. Sutcliffe may now the 9 If you quiet not your selues you must heare it the fourth fifth time second and the third time mooue question and that in print of those things to our discredit which her Maiesties most honourable councell was pleased shoulde be 10 In lawe wee conuent you not in writing we may discourse vpon these things as oft as you pretend innocency no further proceeded in and that he is not 11 You doe not content your selues with it albeit neuer so light in respect of your faults contented with that imprisonment we endured which their honours are satisfied with Lastly my iudgement in sundry matters of the discipline 12 That is sufficient excepted wherein differing from sundry learned men in our church I
all this now I wil briefly note but the proofes you shall see largely deduced in the discourse ensuing First where I doe make diuers questions and some that touch you very nerely you passe the most of them ouer with silence but if you would haue iustified your selfe you should haue answered them al and that in direct and plaine termes I 1 Answere to the petit p. 186. aske you whether Fenners booke which he entitleth sacram Theologiam and which you seeme to allow conteine not strange diuinitie and gladly would I know if you mislike any thing in that booke what the points are you mislike you answere nothing I 2 Ibid. p. 189. demaund of you whether Barowes erroneous conclusions doe not folow of your assertions And what say you to it forsooth nothing I aske if the Prince refuse to reforme the Church how far inferior magistrates and the people may proceed therein and thereto your answere is 1 Ibid p. 194. 195. silence I demaund of you if you and your consorts do not thinke the practises of Geneua and Scotland for the setting vp of their discipline lawfull and worthy to be folowed and to this you say 2 Ibidem p. 195. nothing I demaund further whether you and your fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles and there decreed and enacted certeine Ecclesiastical canons and rules subscribed and practsed them contrary to her Maiesties lawes and the statutes of the Realme and you also answer as to other matters I desired to be resolued whether you had disgraced her Maiesties Ecclesiastical lawes reformation gouernment you respect my desires nothing Diuers other matters likewise I demaunded of you vnto which you answere nothing nay in the matters concerning Hackets practise and Martines libels and her Maiesties supremacie you answere imperfectly and vnsufficiently you dare not set downe my whole question nor confesse al was done concerning Copinger and Martin nor wil you answere directly to those particuler points of her Maiesties supremacie which the statutes and lawes giue her and doe you thinke that this kinde of answering is sufficient to cleare you Why then let Sanders Allen and those Papists and traitors which confesse so much in termes as plainely and openly as you do as yet be cleared concerning Stubbs his wil and your dealing with Francis Michel and others you haue also peruerted my meaning and altered my words and maner of writing who then seeth not how litle meanes you had to cleare your selfe being put to these hard shifts and not daring to set downe his words whom you pretend to answere but this we shall see more euidently when wee come to the examination of the particulers of your briefe Further your answer is altogether vnsufficient you do still cry out in your tragicall maner slander slander and yet you doe not vnderstand what is slander you ought therefore to vnderstand that slander is 1 L. 1. ff ad S. C. Turpil when matters criminal are purposely and falsly obiected but those things of which you go about to purge your selfe are either not criminal or els most true in part by your selfe confessed your selfe confesse that some things obiected to you are in their owne nature indifferent how then are they slanderous that you were acquainted with Hackets and Copingers practises and disliked not Martines courses shal be proued that you would not at the first answere to certaine points concerning the Queenes supreme authoritie in causes ecclesiastical you 2 In this booke and in the question concerning that matter confesse how then can you say you are slandered because forsooth as you would insinuate you did afterwards acknowledge it now offer to sweare it and yet you wil be taken halting when you come to the particuler points of that authoritie You deny that you allowed M. Fenners strange diuinitie concerning ouerruling and deposing of Princes by inferior magistrates yet haue not I said more then your own words wil proue and iustifie That which I say cōcerning working of Miracles and extemporal prayers you wittingly as it seemeth mistake and answere not which argueth that your conscience tolde you that I said nothing therein but trueth trueth whereof you are ashamed the execution of wills and purchase of lands is not criminall beside that what I said either concerning such matters or els your maner of employment of your money in effect and substance shal be proued sufficiently what reason then had you so vnaduisedly to challenge me and so deeply to charge me with this hainous matter of slandering nay what meant you or howe durst you once talke of slanders hauing your selfe slandered the ecclesiasticall policie of the Church as vniust the reformation thereof as prophane and impure the authoritie of Bishops practised in this Church as antichristian and contrary to Gods worde the clergie of England as destitute of an ordinary and lawful calling you hauing no other order then Deacon that I know the people of this land 1 Cartwr table as refusing Christ to reigne ouer them the preaching of the word as not orderly the administration of the Sacraments in this Church as not pure nor sincere neither haue you so good reason to charge me as I haue to charge you with slandering me hauing without cause imputed this vnto mee and charged me with shifting and I know not what vnchristian dealing and hauing put foorth and excited your friend to raile on me and charge me with diuers odious matters in the preface to your booke matters which I do the lesse regard for that as hee hath rashly charged me so he hath wickedly blasphemed God saying that God hath blasted my penne with a lying spirit attributing therein the wicked act of lying to God himselfe which is the Spirit of trueth and not only to me which cōfesse my selfe to be subiect to many errors of this M. Cartwright me thinks you should haue had more care and vsed therein more diligence and not suffered such blasphemies to passe in the forefront of your booke But may you say if you haue not slandered me yet you haue wronged me as if it were wrong to deale against the troubler of our peace the chiefe authour of your schisme the disturber slanderer of this Church and state and yet haue I done nothing otherwise then beseemed mee In my first bookes I dealt with you no further then the cause constreined me your importunitie that first began to oppugne the Church prouoked me In my answere to a certaine petition in the behalfe of your selfe and your side I do confesse I dealt with you more particulerly but I was drawen to it by the authors odious questions and courses When the petitioner said Quaere of Matth. Sutcliffe who is euer carping at M. Cartwrights purchases why he may not sel his fathers lands and buy others with the money how could I satisfie the man vnlesse I touched you particulerly blame therefore him that began
worthy to proceed from a man made of doogeon nay made of stone and to bee set in a wall to confute all men that shall contradict the fancies of Puritanisme But ynough is said of these great brags of the performance you shall heare more hereafter as also who be those innocents and malicious accusers he prateth of ¶ The preface Concerning such things as it pleaseth him so 1 If constantly then vertuously constantly to 2 No bastardes shall bee fathered on him father vpon M. Cartwright and others by 1 I neuer fathered any thing on him by heresay onely heresay and report I 2 Doe you not heare I. Throk cornemuse cannot but muze that a man of his 3 Of what coat iacket or ierkin are ye coat and calling is no more smitten and abashed at it then he is for presuppose that one should heare by report that M. Sutcliffe was once taken with 4 A ridiculous deuise nowe newly cogged by Iob Throk or some such mate Aske Beza whether it be true false dice at Geneua and thereupon being forced to fly the towne should euer since beare a kind of inueterat hatred malice to M. Beza and the 5 I neuer hated them nor had to doe with them or they with me elders there this being knowē only to vs by 6 Lie not so impudently report how true soeuer the thing might bee in it selfe I would faine know for my learning whether this were aequa lāce or how it might sute with any measure of indifferencie forthwith without any further 7 Can you shewe that I publish matters only vpon heresay if not blush examinatiō to spred it abroadin print ¶ The answere I must needes confesse that if I did ground my selfe in those matters which I affirme concerning M. Cartwright vpon a bare hearesay or report without further examination I had cause to be ashamed the more shame for this impudent companion to forge and cogge a matter not so much as vpon hearesay but without hearesay and to charge me with 8 This is as true as that my plate if at pawne at a butchers house in Warwike false dice and driuing out of Geneua matters which God let me so euer enioy his fauour as I neuer so much as heard reported my selfe before I read the same in this preface so farre am I from being guiltie of this ridiculous coggery To satisfie those that knowe mee not I answere first that I neuer could play nor vsed to play at dice in my life secondly that I neuer was before the elders of Geneua while I was there thirdly I neuer hated them nor had cause to hate them albeit I enquired whether any such Ecclesiastical officers were euer in the Church or no. fourthly M. Beza and the elders will giue testimonie of the vntruth of this matter and I doubt not but Beza if he could haue said any such thing of me rayling at mèe for no cause would not haue spared mee in this point fiftly M. Francis Brace a gentleman of Worcestreshire and M. Miles Bodley a knowne minister of this Church can testifie that I came from Geneua with credite and with the fauour of Beza and others the chiefe men of that citie for with them I came thence Lastly if any such thing had bene it would haue bene spoken of before this it being 17. yeere since I came from thence this report I thinke M. Throkmorton deuised taking the paterne from himselfe being a cogging felow and driuen or at least running away out of the Parliament house for his lewd misdemeanors the same toucheth me nothing And thus much for this bald matter and shamelesse slander to imitate my friend Iobs words As for those matters that I obiect against M. Cartwright they are of another nature at least grounded vpon sure proofes of records confessions witnesses reasons and such as M. Cartwright examining shall confesse his fellow Prefator to bee vnwise to deuise this matter or to compare it with his as more euidently shall appeare hereafter ¶ The preface And yet this ye shall 1 Name the particulers and examine Master Cartwrights briefe finde to bee an vsuall and ordinary course with M. 2 As honest a man as I. Throk or M. Cartwright and neuer called in question as they haue bene Deane of Exeter in his solemne 3 I enforme against none but deale with them on the way informations and personall pleadings against 4 I speake much against Hacket Copinger Wigginton Vdal Penry Throk Are these your good men goodmen ¶ The answere I would to God the men against whom I plead were so good as they would seeme to be sure I am none are such as they should be for then would not M. Cartwright nor his felowes so violently haue oppugned the Ecclesiasticall regiment of the Church of England nor contumeliously haue disgraced the reformation begunne by her Maiestie nor impugned the princes authoritie so baldly nor railed against the chiefe prelates so impetuously neither was Hacket hanged drawen and quartered nor was Penry hanged nor did Copinger pitifully languish away nor was Iob Throkmorton endited nor were M. Cartwright and his fellowes conuented in the Starre-chamber for their goodnesse Note therefore that if sometimes speaches passe against them it is not for their goodnesse but for other matters and that this Forespeaker hath no reason either to call these goodmen or to condemne those that defend Religion iustice lawes and gouernment against the malcontent mothes and perturbers of this state But whatsoeuer men they be I do neither informe nor begin any quarrell against them I did answere the author of the petition and did not challenge him Likewise I answered M. Iob Throkmorton and the man cannot say but he is answered Neither did I publish any thing against M. Cartwright but diuers yeeres after hee had reuelled against the clergie of the Church Personally I dealt against none but such as had personally dealt against vs and professed themselues enemies of the Church The matters that I charge them withall are built vpon other grounds then hearesay and that shall M. Cartwright well perceiue when we come to refell his friuolous answeres M. Throkmorton hath found so firme reasons alledged against him that he hath giuen ouer to contend vainely with wordes and I doubt not but others vpon triall shall finde the like What an impudent felow then was this to say that my vsual ordinary proofs stand vpon hearesay but if any did yet doe they excell Throkmortons answeres for we cannot hearesay that he hath publikely as yet answered any thing in defence of his calumnious letter so that it should seeme his defence standeth neither by trueth nor hearesay More wisdome therefore were it for him not to name the Deane of Exeter in such scornefull maner when all scorne him rather that was ouerthrowne in his own challenge and neuer shewed himself either at home or abroad to haue any value ¶ The
According to the meaning of the statute I thinke he will not take the oath for then he should declare that the Queene hath power to establish and disanull Ecclesiasticall lawes to appoint Ecclesiasticall Iudges officers and commissioners to heare appeales or to appoint delegates to heare them when they are made from Ecclesiasticall courtes to nominate Bishops to receiue first fruits and tenthes of Ecclesiasticall liuings and such like rights priuiledges as the statutes of this land giue her but that he may not nor I thinke wil not do for that the lawes of their discipline deny it if so be he would I confesse he should satisfie me in this point but hee should vtterly ruinate the foundation of his aldermens consistoriall iurisdiction to whom they giue most of these things Yea I doubt whether others would be satisfied for as in religion it is a note of an hereticall disposition to doubt of the grounds of our faith so in policie it is a note of a disloyall person to doubt of the princes lawfull authoritie which the statutes giue her In which case seeing you were once albeit now you vtterly deny it I pray you let vs not haue you too much boast of your innocencie and that in such long Prefaces as that before your short briefe especially seeing heretofore you haue written and done many things to the praeiudice of her supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes In the booke of your holy discipline wherein you hold that a perfect forme of Church gouernment such as is prescribed in Gods word is conteined you haue vtterly excluded the princes authoritie and debarred him from all gouernment for you haue not so much as mentioned him In one of the disciplinarian bookes of common prayer 1 This booke they sought to haue confirmed by act of Parliament and administration of Sacraments you leaue out the Christian magistrate in another there is some mention made of him but it is in the ende of the booke and after all the officers of the Church described Thirdly in direct termes you say that the Christian magistrate can no more be an officer of the Church 2 2. reply p. 420. then the pastors can bee magistrates how then can he be supreme gouernor of the Church that is no gouernor at all 3 2. repl 2. parl p. 147. as you say You hold also that a Christian magistrate hath no more authoritie in the Church then a heathen prince which is sufficient to exclude him out of the Church gouernment Finally you do subiect him to the excommunication of your elderships and place the magistrate among those that are to obey and the elders among commanders Fourthly you wil not deny but that the Papists deny her Maiesties supremacie in causes Ecclesiasticall how then can it be said that you hold a good opinion of it when you in your books do giue her no more authoritie then they and abridge the same as farre as they doe 4 2. repl p. 48. Doe you not deny that the prince ought to be called the head of particuler and visible Churches within his dominions Do you not likewise 5 Ibidem p. 157. 167. take from him authoritie to determine of Church causes and 6 1. reply p. 192. power to ordeine lawes and ceremonies It cannot be denied your wordes are plaine all which you borow from the Papists They subiect the prince to the Pope you to your elderships neither can you shew any other difference betwixt your selfes and them For where you say first that you doe not exempt your ministers frō the punishment of the ciuil magistrate as the Papists doe their Priestes you erre in both for both would you claime immunitie for your ministers and they do not simply exempt their priestes but in certeine cases The authors of the 7 Admonition 2. p. 65. admonition would haue themselues and their companions by act of Parliament exempted from the authoritie of Iustices and from their enditings and finings In your 8 Lib. 2. reply you would haue the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate to descend from Christ as God and not as mediator whereof it followeth that Christian princes haue no rule ouer their subiects as Christians but onely as men 1 De visib monarch lib. 2. c. 3. as Saunders also holdeth all of you deny that any appeale is to be admitted from the determination of the synode to the prince How then are not the synodes exempt from princes iurisdiction when the prince hath no authoritie ouer them yea and in Suffolke certeine of this sect in a supplication to the Lords of her Maiesties counsell affirme that it was a hard course and tending to the discredit of the ministery that their ministers should be presented before the Iudges and endited arraigned and condemned Contrarywise 2 Against the apologie of the Church p. 306. Harding saith that good Kings may put Bishops and priestes in minde of their duties and bridle both their riot and arrogancie And in 3 Ibidem p. 303. another place that a prince may make lawes for the obseruation of both tables and punish the transgressors Feckenam 4 To bishop Horne offereth to sweare that her Maiestie hath vnder God the soueraintie and rule ouer all persons within her dominions whether they bee Ecclesiasticall or temporall Fatemur personas Episcoporum qui in toto orbe fuerunt saith 5 De visib monarch lib. 2. c. 3. Sanders Romano Imperatori esse subiectos And for ciuil causes it is their common opinion that 6 Harding reioynd f. 379. priests may be conuented before ciuil Iudges and for Ecclesiastical causes certeine 7 Act. of Parliament anno 1584. acts 2. ministers of Scotland refused to answere before the king Secondly you say that the Papists will haue the prince to execute whatsoeuer they conclude be it good or bad which you will not For you graunt the prince authoritie to set order where there is no lawfull ministery and to stay vnlawfull decrees of lawfull ministers As if the 8 Hard. confus apol p. 304. 317. Papists did not grant as much or as if Papists held that the princes were to execute wicked decrees Againe it is euident that you would haue all men to stand to the 9 Admonit determination of your synodes And albeit your synodes doe decree bad things yet you wil not giue princes authoritie to iudge them How then can they stay them will you giue them extraordinary authoritie that is your meaning But how shall wee know when they worke by ordinary when by extraordinary authoritie Beside that you deny this extraordinary authoritie as long as there is a lawfull ministery And albeit your doings be vnlawfull yet you will not be stayed by the prince Thirdly you 10 2. p. 164. affirme that you do not vtterly seclude the prince from your Churchassemblies for oftentimes a simple man and as the prouerbe saith a gardner hath spoken to purpose
not onely disputeth it but resolueth it also and saith How others thinke that to charge M. Cartwr with ignorance is mere impudencie so many vniuersities Churches and nations being able to controll it and that he may with equall reason bee charged with disloyaltie and ignorance a matter founding very harshlie I thinke in M. Cartwrights eares for which I referre the man ouer to be bastonated and corrected by M. Cartwright that which he saith against me whom he supposeth to haue charged M. Cartwright both with ignorance and disloyaltie remaineth of me to be answered He saith first that others thinke meaning his owne consorts but if the Prefator wil not beleeue what honest men vpon iust cause report it skilleth not much what such companions thinke He giueth M. Cartwr the title of reuerend yet doth he litle deserue it that neuer reuerenced his superiors nor respected antiquitie nor cared for lawe or dutie He disputeth as if I should charge M. Cartwright simply with ignorance which I doe not remember true it is that I do charge him with ignorance in diuers points and that charge is neither strange nor vndeserued nor vntrue His ignorance in all antiquitie is totoo apparant for al his plot of discipline is nothing but a mere mistaking of ancient histories all olde writers do testifie that the ancient Church next after the Apostles had diuers degrees of ministers of the word and commonly name them Bishops Priests and Deacons that appeareth out of Dionysius commonly called Areopagita out of Ignatius Tertullian Cyprian Eusebius Hierome Augustine Theodoret and al the fathers whose words are often cited by vs to that purpose The authors of the 1 Cent. 2. c. 7. de gubernat eccles Centuries confesse That the fathers of the Church that succeeded the Apostles had degrees of persons in the Church And yet M. Cartwright imagined that all Bishops and ministers of the word were equall and went about to proue it out of the Centuries The ancient fathers giue authoritie to Bishops ouer teaching elders hee abrogateth all authoritie from them and maketh them equall and all one They speake onely of elders that were ministers of the word M. Cartwright affirmeth that the priests that came to the councell of Nice of which meÌ„tion is made in 2 In vita Constantin lib. 1. Eusebius and 3 Lib. 1. c. 8. Socrates were gouerning elders But he should remember they gaue no definite voice and should haue bene excluded from the company of their wiues if Paphnutius had not resisted the purpose of those that would haue that decree passe which to interpret of elders onely gouernours is mere ignorance in matter of history and direct against M. Cartwr plot His ignorance in the fathers appeareth both by the former argument and by his continuall misallegation and misconstruing of them To goe no further examine that chapter or 1 1. reply section which hee hath framed to prooue that the election of ministers ought to be made by the people And also 2 1. reply p. 99. 100. those places where he would proue that Bishops whereof the ancient fathers make mention were onely pastors of one parish and had none other pastors or parishes but one vnderneth them His ignorance of diuinitie is testified to the world first by his vnaduised approbation of Fenners booke which is the ouerthrow of all diuinitie although called by M. Cartwright holy diuinitie and approued for an excellent peece of workemanship next by the newe confession of faith and newe formes of sacraments set downe in that new Communion booke whereof hee was either chiefe author or chiefe fauourer and approuer Lastly in that new discipline which hee falsly affirmeth to bee drawne out of Gods word His ignorance in the Latin tongue is made famous by that Epistle of his that is set before Fenners booke which is the onely thing of his that euer I saw in Latin and is full of soloecismes In the beginning there is a grosse soloecisme in these wordes Tua legens c. subijt mentemde Mose viro Dei historia Likewise an improprietie in these words coelestis Canaan axiomata for axiomata signifie rules of arte not lawes of state These words vt me adomnia mea officia quae in te proficisci possunt arctius deuinxeris haue bad sence and a barbarous phrase In the 2. page lin 14. communices is put for communicaris nay as it seemeth he vnderstandeth not Latin well Cyprian hath sportulantes fratres in a certeine Epistle this he 3 2. reply tract eldership imagined to be brethren of the basket where it may appeare Cyprian meanâ— brethren that receiued wages So that if he were to be charged with disloyaltie as well as with ignorance in some points yea not very difficult neither it were no wisdome for I. Throk to be his halfe I doe also call his replies a farâ—le of fooleries â—haynous and odious crime yet I suppose there is no learned man that thinketh otherwise M. Whitakers giueth a very hard censure vpon his second reply wherein notwithstanding M. Cartwright seemeth most to triumph Quem Cartwrightus saith 1 In a certeine letter to be showne he nuper emisit libellum eius magnam partem perlegi ne viuam si quid vnquam viderim dissolutius ac penè puerilius Verborum satis ille quidem lautam ac nouam suppellectilem habet rerum omnino nullam quantum ego iudicare possum Deinde non modo peruersè de principis in rebus sacris atque Ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit sed in 2 M. Whitaker toucheth him aswel for disloyaltie as vnlearned writing PapistaruÌ„ etiaÌ„ castra transfugit à quibus tamen viders vult odio capitali dissidere Verùm nec in hac causa ferendus alijs etiam in partibus tela à Papistis mutuatur denique vt de Ambrosio dixit Hieronymus verbis ludit sententijs dormitat planè indignus est qui à quopiam docto refutetur That which I say in generall he saith in particular neither doe I thinke that either any Vniuersitie or sound learned man will say the contrary Against the first reply this may be said that if he shew learning in any thing it is in the treatise of election of ministers which notwithstanding is either translated or stollen out of a 3 In append ad catal test verit treatise of Illyricus of the same argument That which he hath of Archbishops and Bishops as most of his other deuises he boroweth of Caluin and Beza and indeed to say trueth he is most skilful in Caluins institutions but take him beyond that and he wandreth and turneth like a mariuer tossed on the sea without helpe of starre or compasse I will not speake of his stile that is so hard and rough and so stuffed with farre fetched and out stretched metaphors This booke of his will giue testimonie how vnpleasantly he writeth and I meane not to folow him further then is necessary
to iustifie my former sayings which vpon peine of hearing the lye I am compelled to mainteine But saith he Vniuer sities Churches and nations will giue testimony of his learning true and oft times they giue it vpon fauor or other respect which whether it be done in him or no I will not examine for I deny not that M. Cartwright is a man learned but that hee is excellently learned and not ignorant in the points wherein I haue iustly noted him that would be proued As for the charge of disloyaltie I doe not thinke that I haue simply and directly layd it vpon M. Cartwright yet if any such matter should haue bene spoken it might reasonably well haue beene iustified M. Whitaker in the place before recited doth touch him for the same matter and his books published abroad do sufficiently conuict him In a 1 Disciplina eccl sacra Dei verbo descript certeine forme of discipline about which M. Cartwright and diuers others had long beaten their heads and which they professe to be that discipline which they desire as drawen out of the Scriptures for the good gouernment of the church all gouernment is giuen to the eldership and the princes authoritie neither excepted nor mentioned to this forme M. Cartwright subscribed Beside this if disloyaltie be nothing but a course either repugnant or diuers from lawes dueties it is no such heinous matter to charge him with disloyaltie for what are his replies and all his actions but contradictions and spurnings and mutinous repinings against lawes and gouernours I need not to obiect vnto him his familiarity with I. Throk a man so wel acquainted with Penry Hacket and Copinger nor his owne knowledge of their generall bad intentions neither will I put him in remembrance of all his negotiaon about the new discipline and the new Communion booke nor his secret consultations nor his intelligences with men of forren nations and all for alteration of the ecclesiasticall state lawes I will not say all vntill I be vrged in the meane while M. Cartwright hath reason rather to thinke mee patient in suffering his abuses then himselfe abused or iniuried in this point that is therein touched so gently and euill doth this Praefator deserue at his hands that giueth occasion to looke vpon the mans olde sores which were now bound vp and to rub vp matters both forgiuen and forgotten himselfe certes was not wise to renew this quarrell which he will ere long wish ended and buried in silence the whole brotherhood of deformity will wish he had bene well couched in a soft featherbead to dreame of a new plot of reformation But doth the Praefator say the countries places of his resiance giue plentifull testimony for his loyalty as if guilty persons conuicted by witnesses and euident proofes were to be acquited for generall testimonials giuē to euery body vpon euery light occasion It is a common saying that 2 Plus creditur vni affirmanti quammille negantibus one witnesse in the affirmatiue prooueth more then 1000 in the negatiue how can they then that knew not these matters cleere him that is conuicted by witnesses and his owne writing the Praefator therefore that could neither see reason nor sense in my doings seemeth to haue litle sence of seeing neither hath he any great iudgement in discerning he denieth all but what proofe doth he bring for his deniall iust nothing but slipping into his hunters veine sayth I am slipper in the seare which kinde of stile doth argue this preface to be I. Throk a better hunter then writer and a man of so slipper and light behauior as that Th. Cartwright for all his great learning can not defend him nor garde him from iust reprehension ¶ The preface The 1 The best of this Preface and treatise is starke nought best is thou hast here by this meanes good Reader in the euennesse and 2 How then happeneth it that he complaineth of wrong equabilitie of the Doctors hand towardes this man an vnfallible line layed before thee whereby thou mayest measure all the rest of his 3 All these are nought but railing words of a chafing Proloquutor reproches so vnconscionably throwen vpon others for hath he dealt 4 More truely Christianly and charitably then he hath dealt with the whole Clergie of England truely modestly charitably and Christianly with this man then make thou no doubt or question but he hath affoorded full as good measure to others On the contrarie hath he made no bones hand ouer head and that beyond all 5 I haue kept better compasse then M. Cartwright compasse of Christianitie to speake his pleasure of this man being a man so notably graced in 6 By gifts he fareth the better gifts and one that hath so many vncontrollable 7 What notable graces certeine euidences of honest cariage of himselfe he hath doth cuill appeare by this Briefe euidences of his wise and dutifull cariage of himselfe ¶ The answere It should seeme that Iob Thr. who I thinke was the rude author of this vnpolished vnciuill preface would very gladly take some aduantage of my vnaduised dealing as he taketh it with M. Cartwright to cleere himselfe as if that which I sayd against him were nothing because it is not true as he beleeueth that I bring against M. Cartwright but it will not be This therefore is to be put among the rest of his odde or rather madde conclusions which in his moody passion he frameth beside all mood and figure his argument standeth vpon particulars and therefore hath no good sequele for he that speaketh vntrueth in one thing may well speake trueth in other things and although a man shoulde vnciuilly demeane himselfe towards one yet doth it not follow that he should doe it against all for if that were granted then were not M. Cartwr and Iob Throk to be credited in any thing vttering so manifolde vntruethes in many things nor were they to be so well accounted of among their consorts that haue so misdemeaned themselues against the Prelates of this Church diuers other honest men To let the aduantage of the bad sequele of this argument go I will not sticke to grant M. Throk this fauour that my dealings with M. Cartwright be taken as a patterne of the rest of my writings such is the assurance of my plaine and honest dealing with him and of his bad dealing misdemeanors against the state God is my witnesse I haue not charged him wittingly with vntrueth nor dealt vnconscionably with him and that I hope to make good either by M. Cartwrights owne wordes or by euident and sufficient proofes and so not onely M. Throkmortons cause will still lie in the suddes but M. Cartwr also will winne small grace by his calumnious and erroneous briefe Besides all this there is no small difference betwixt M. Carwright and M. Iob Throkmorton he is a man not vnlearned nor vnciuil
haue the consent of many worthy churches and godly learned both of this and 13 Speake not this for shame for before Caluins time your fancies were neuer heard of other ages I would be ashamed for that singular mercy God had shewed mee by her Maiesties most gratious gouernment to come 14 Yet I haue beene in many places in her Maiesties seruice where I could not see you behind M. Sutcliffe in any duty that my poore hand is able to reach vnto 15 What is this to Fenners cause And that hee 16 If I dare you it is because I knowe you cannot dareth me not once but sundry times to answere touching these matters of discipline I thinke it not so 17 Why did you then first begin this braule fit for mee to vndertake it there being so many better able thereunto then I especially in this declining and forgetfull age of mine and yet if my answere might haue either that 18 At Geneua you may haue both allowance of print or passage that his hath and none other were found I my selfe in this weakenesse I am in would not be behinde with answere to any thing that he hath bene able to alledge in this behalfe 19 A ridiculous surmise if there be any thing in his writings the answere where of is not already set downe by such as haue written in that cause and that my silence in the cause of discipline is not altogether of the 20 I do thinke M. Cartwright able to do and write well but not in this cause inabilitie or feare M. D. Sutcliffe would so willingly fasten or rather force vpon mee let this be for an 21 An argument most weake for it is more easie to refute the Rhemâ—sts false annotations then to establish newe found conceits argument that where I was set 22 That should be done by the learned fathers of the church on worke by the right honourable Sir Francis Walsingham for the answere of the annotations of the Iesuites vpon the New testament had trauailed therein to a rude and first draught of a great part thereof vnderstanding from some in authority that I might not deale with it I did not onely not set any thing out my selfe but also 23 Good for you and for the cause earnestly laboured by letters and frends here and in Scotland both the hinderance of the printing some parts thereof which being brought to Sir Francis afterward much against my will came into the hands of diuers to whom I would 24 Such is the pride of these men they will not suffer their doings to be corrected neuer haue let them come In the margine oueragainst these words hinderance of the printing is this note placed And 25 This note serueth to vnderproppe the former weake argument but to no good effect for the vnsufficiency of this might deter him from attempting the other labour if he stayed the publishing of that whereunto he was once allowed by authority it is not in all likelyhood to be thought that he would hastily publish any thing of himselfe howsoeuer he might be persuaded of the trueth of it Matth. Sutcliffe In this answer there are two principall questions that should haue bene resolued by M. Cartwright if he meant to conclude ought against me the first is whether he did highly commend M. Fenners booke or no wherein this strange position mentioned in the title of his answere is conteined the second whether granting so much as I charged him withall he was herein slandered as in euery of his seuerall accusations he pretendeth of these two questions M. Cartwright resolueth nether with what face then can hee say that he is slandered not being able to deny any thing which I say nor to iustifie his wrong imputation of slaunder did hee thinke that I should neuer returne to looke into these matters if he did what hope hath he to make them good Beside this wrong where I say that Fenner giueth authoritie to inferior persons as indeed he doth he cunningly foisteth in superior persons as if either he meant to 1 If he say that a prince may be ouerruled by inferiors he denieth the princes souereignty if in such common wealths where the magistrates haue indeed superiors he deny their authority he speaketh as a man ignorant of antiquitie and state denie the princes supremacie or their authoritie if any such may be that haue authoritie ouer the prince or king as the Romanes had ouer kings that were their vassals and tributaries of which wee talke not nor make any question such goodly discourses maketh M. Cartwright all muffled about the eyes with the maske of innocency so that he could see nothing vnlesse it were to misalledge my words and to answere nothing to purpose yet least his clients and followers might thinke he had sayd great matters let vs examine euen this nothing He sayth that M. Fenner giueth no such authority as is sayd but where the lawes of the land doe establish such an authoritie as the Ephori in Lacedaemonia had A matter as I shewed that made not to purpose and which is also very false for M. Fenner as M. Cartwright should not be ignorant speaketh of lawes drawn out of the word of God to which all princes ought to submit their scepters further he speaketh generally he therefore that taketh it otherwise doth both mistake and misconstrue Driuen from this ground hee flieth to the second and sayth that hee is not of M. Fenners iudgement which sitteth him not well to say vnlesse he will contradict himselfe in his epistle for the matters conteined in M. Fenners booke hee calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 leges iuracoelestis Canaan Now I trow he wil not deny Gods lawes or as he calleth them the lawes of heauenly Canaan beside this he reuiewed the book and corrected it as appeareth by these words Cupiebam saith 2 The words of M. Cartwrights epistle before M. Fenners booke M. Cartwright libelluÌ„ hunc quem sanè praeclarum abs te accepi nec indignum vt ei legendo vadimonium quod dicitur deseratur pro voto postulato tuo meliorem cultiorem ad te remittere ad quam rem quid attulerim tu apud te statues hauing then corrected what he thought amisse will not M. Cartwright defend the rest especially hauing made all so neat and fine thirdly as those that 3 l. lex cornelia ff de iniuriis §. si quis librum publish and commend or write or make books conteining slandrous matter are to answere for whatsoeuer is therein conteined so they that publish and commend books conteining hereticall and trecherous and leud opinions are to answere for them much rather in what case then is M. Cartwr that by his excessiue commendations hath giuen vent to this booke which no wise man I thinke will valew is not he periured that denieth that doctrine on his oth which is conteined in the
the giftes hee had so diligent was his wife to rake in rewards that many braue men of good desert that serue her maiestie in her warres would bee content the shame onely except to exchange the commodity of their places with him but if these men haue not what they would or if their pillowes lie not right they thinke all men doe them wrong that doe not pitie them yea albeit they murmure at their iudges yet would they haue no man to open their mouth against them Lastly he entreth into comparison with me and saieth bee would be ashamed to come behind me in any duetie wherein it had bene good if he had hired M. Throk or some of his friends to speake for him This domesticall testimonie of himselfe sauoureth strongly of folly and arrogancie is litle to be respected yea albeit his deserts were greater yet is the comparison odious and loth I am to follow M. Cartwright in this vanitie yet thus much I may say for my selfe that I neuer was imprisoned for any vndutifull and disloyall opinions and misdemeanors as he hath bene neither did I euer hide my head in corners as hee hath done nor did I euer so neerely touch her maiesties royall prerogatiue her reuenues and her lawes as M. Cartwright did nor euer haue I written bookes in defence of a new gouernment of the church nor maintained the same directly against lawes as he hath done and doeth Againe I thinke M. Cartwright was neuer employed in her maiesties seruice as I haue bene now this fourth time yea while I was in her seruice in the iorney of Guadix hee emploied all his time and labour in setting foorth and printing this most simple briefe ô what brags would he make if euer he had done her maiestie seruice that is not now ashamed to brag of his duetifull behauiour towards her maiestie whose whole time hath bene emploied in oppugning that ecclesiasticall gouernment which by her authoritie is established so litle doeth he shame to looke into the crooked course of his whole life and studie For answere therefore to this obiection M. Cartwright doth insinuate that all other matters being equall he is behind me onely in his iudgement in matters of discipline which is vntrue for notwithstanding that iudgement he might haue done her maiestie seruice if he had would as I haue done Beside that this onely dealing of his about his fancifull discipline is matter sufficient to conuict him of notorious misdemeanors and vndutiful cariage of himselfe as hath bene declared neither is his defence of any moment where he saieth that many are of his opinion for in euery lewd practise there are lightly many consorts and heretikes and schismatikes want no folowers Beside that it is vntrue that many worthy churches and godly learned of this and other ages are of his opinion for before Caluins time his discipline was neuer heard of and albeit now some churches doe embrace his opinions herein yet doe they not consent with M. Cartwright in many points nor I thinke did they allow any negotiation and practise for the establishing of his new discipline in this land by forging railing libelling and disloiall dealing Would therfore M. Cartwr doe me this fauour in two other sheetes of paper to shew that godly learned men of other ages were of his opinion and that other churches allow his courses hee should cleare himselfe of the suspicion of a great and notorious vntrueth The rest of M. Cartwrights answere in this place is nothing but an idle digression nothing pertinent to the clearing of the obiection concerning his iudgement of Fenners booke and the authoritie by him giuen to certeine Ephori to ouerrule princes yet least hee should compleine hee were not answered I am to craue pardon if I examine this also He saith first that although I dare him not once but sundry times to answere touching these matters of discipline yet it is not so fit for him to vndertake it To this I answere first that albeit I should dare him yet it is no slander to his worship that I dare him it is rather shame for him that hee commeth not forth being dared Secondly he doth mee wrong to say I dare him for he dare do any thing yea things very absurd and vnlawfull But in deed I doe in diuers points challenge him to mainteine his bolde and rash assertions and that not to stirre contention but to shew that albeit he dare do it yet he can not mainteine his cause Thirdly I do mainteine that there is no man that hath more reason to answere in these causes then hee and that first for that he in this Church first of all in large books defended these opinions Now why should any bee thought more fit to speake then hee that first made challenge and entred the liftes in defence of this cause Secondly there is none whom that side doth more desire should answere then M. Cartwright Thirdly they imagine that none is more able Fourthly the cause of others is deserted Fiftly none promised or bragged so much as he Lastly of all men I would that M. Cartwright should specially answere that when it appeareth how the patriarch of discipline can say nothing his followers that are abused might soonest be mooued to change opinion And if neither his aduersaries prouocation nor his friends desire nor his owne reputation nor his cause deserted nor his owne great words and brags do moue him I see no excuse he can haue but the impossibilitie of defence and the vntrueth of matters heretofore defended by him He pretendeth age and forgetfulnesse but the first is not sufficient the second is absurd for he ought not to forget his duty nor what he is to say for himselfe Hee saith also that others are more able but I dare say he beleeueth it not and his friendes by no meanes will admit it Therefore when no iust excuse can be alledged of silence he proceedeth saying that if either his answere might haue allowance of print or passage himselfe in that weaknesse hee is in would not be behinde to answere any thing that I haue bene able to alledge in these matters as if hee might not as well print and passe his bookes at Geneua or Heidelberg as he did his first and second replies Beside that if the matters he standeth on be such as he saith then ought he to care for no allowance nor passage for if discipline bee a part of the Gospell and so constantly to be defended as that he ought to giue his life for it yea so many liues as he hath haires of his head these are no iust excuses why he should flie backe Further when hee printed his first bookes he desired neither passage nor allowance why then should hee nowe desire it more then then Is his heate of zeale cooled or is he growne wise nay he saith he is growne weake percase he hath taken some rheume or cold that hath disordred the records of his fancie which