haue more benefices then two with cure if they haue all but those they can keepe doe fall voyde lastly all this which hee draweth out of the Canons is to no purpose for they haue no strength of lawe Article 63 The bishops say that excommunication is a ciuill discommuning and company with excommunicate persons and if our Prelates were examined then were they excommunicate and worse then publicanes and heathen Answere Marke I pray you the intemperate furie of this base companion the honourable Prelates of this land reuerend for their learning yeeres grauitie place this crablouse swaine and paltrie parasite scornefully calleth iolly prelates and in changing scorne into rayling calleth them excommunicate persons yea worse then publicanes and heathen into such a streine of madnes is he entred looke Allen Stapleton other traytors discourses yet shall you find no such scornefull nor spitefull speaches and wherefore doth hee so reuile them forsooth because he supposeth they offend against canons yet neyther doth he prooue any fault nor can he shew that those canons are lawe nor can hee excuse his consorts that notoriously contemne all excommunications nor finally can hee disproue the common distinction of excommunication that one sort is ecclesiasticall the other ciuill and therefore as a furious for rayling without learning or wit against men of so high place hee is rather to bee corrected in Bedlem then refuted with long discourse I doubt not but the consistorie it selfe will bee ashamed of such kinde of dealing and all other reasonable men condemne it why the disciplinarians should talke of excommunication there is no reason forthey commit the same into prophane mens hands and are therein worse then heathen that neuer committed such holy things into so base mens hands This is the summe of all those articles that he hath gathered against the ecclesiasticall state a playne iustification of all their doings for if he could haue said more against them he would not haue spared and charging them with matters eyther tryfling or else vtterly vntrue declareth them to bee innocent himselfe to bee malicious and furious for the summe of all is nothing but a packe of vnruly wordes as Chapplaines Priestes iolly Prelates hangbyes excommunicate persons worse then heathen and publicanes licentious preachers extortioners bribers and such like I could requite him with better and as bitter tearmes but to answere his articles I will onely returne him but these few articles following A BRIEFE COLLECTION OF DIVERS haereticall and strange opinions lewde practises and fond fancies and deuices which certaine factious and light headed persons haue lately coloured and aduanced with glorious titles of discipline and reformation set downe in forme of Articles TH. Cartw. doth call the rules of his new discipline the 1 In the Epistbefore Fenners new diuinitie Axiomes or irrefragable principles of heauenly Canaan whereby he would in sinuate that they are without doubt to be receiued and yet can he not shewe that euer the eldership or the strange gouernement thereof was practised in Canaan vnlesse it were of the Cananites and enemies of Gods Church to the rooting out of Gods people and ouerthrow of the Ministerie 2 The disciplinarians holde that the gouernement of the Eldership is Christes kingdome and that they that withstand the same are enemies to Christ to religion and to Christes kingome and apply these wordes of the Gospel 2 Th. Cartw. in a certeine table Those mine enemies that would not haue me to reigne ouer them bring them and slay them before me Aplaine euidence that if with entreatie they cannot they meane by warres and bloodshed to set vp their kingdome and yet William Hacket their first king was crowned in Cheapeside with an hempen coronet or diademe and his garde and followers dipersed 3 They teach That the Church is onely to be gouerned by Christes lawes And yet are they not able to bring forth one worde for proofe of their consistorie or the partes of it or the office of euery seueral part of it or any part of their gouernment and seeme to rest onely vpon mens bare conceites and fancies contrarie both to scriptures equitie and reason 4 They professe great loyaltie in termes yet doubt not to say that the simplest Consistorie they haue may giue the prince to Satan 5 They take from the magistrate power to make ecclesiasticall lawes for the gouernment of the Church and yet at Geneua they haue no ecclesiasticall lawes but made by the magistrates 6 That authoritie which statutes giue to princes In calling and assembling of Synodes and appointing ecclesiasticall commissioners to heare and determine Ecclesiasticall matters and appointing delegates to represse wrongs offered in Ecclesiasticall courtes they take away and deny the supremacie of the prince very presumptuously 7 They ouerthrowe her Maiesties reuennues and dissolue the office of first fruites and tenthes 8 They deny her all authoritie to nominate Bishops or other officers of the Church and vtterly take away her right of patronage in all ecclesiasticall liuings 9 They dissolue all ecclesiasticall lawes and all those statutes that concerne Bishops or other Ministers or other ecclesiastical liuings person or cause 10 They deny that her Maiestie may pardon and graunt life to any offender Fenneri Theologia whome Moses lawe commandeth to be put to death and binde her to the obseruance of Moses iudiciall lawes 11 They seeke the ruine and ouerthrowe of the whole ecclesiasticall estate by abasing the Ministers of the Church beneath all others and laying infinite burthens vpon them and taking away all rewardes of learning a point which you my masters of the vniuersitie are to looke vnto 12 By ouerthrowing of the Ecclesiasticall state they doe depriue her Maiestie of many thowsands of able and most willing men to doe her seruice and make way to inward faction and forreine inuasion and all manner of heresies and disorders 13 They teach Th Cartw. reply that all magistrates are to licke the dust of the feete of the Eldership 14 They goe about to bring in forreine lawes and forreine and vncouth gouernors 15 They teach that in euery common wealth well gouerned Fenners holy diuinitie there ought some magistrates to be appointed to depose and ouerrule princes if they doe not their dueties like the Spartain Ephori 16 They teach that the prince may not determine any weightie matter Ibidem without the assemblie of the estates 17 They depraue the ecclesiasticall gouernement Martin and religion of this Church and call it antichristian and diuelish 18 They traduce the publike iustice of this land Martin and Epist before reformat no enemie and rayle against the parliament the lordes the Iudges the lawes and whatsoeuer misliketh them 19 They haue confederated themselues together That is euident by theit subscriptions for the ouer throwing of the ecclesiasticall lawes and state and haue subscribed certeine articles for the establishment of new lawes and gouernement 20 Cartwright and
for such men when Luna is praedominant in their heades 18 Quaere whether it be a matter tolerable and beseeming wise gouerners that clownes and men of occupatiō should determine matters of religion or that ideots should iudge of lawe and gouerne all matters ecclesiasticall and by what rule of diuinitie it may be surmised that an ignorant man being chosen an Elder shoulde sodenly be endued with new graces and as Th. Cartw. the great disciplinarian patriarke faith become a new man as if he were new perboyled in Peleus his tubbe 19 When the Consistorie consisteth of 13 good men and true whereof sixe looke one way and seuen another Quaere why the odde voyce should make the sentence of seuen to be the determination of the Church and whether this be not an odde discipline where one odde man maketh a determination to be called the Churches determination 20 Quaere by what lawe Doctors Pastors and Deacons make one corporation seeing in no place of scripture they are mentioned together nor by any authoritie or commission are linked together 21 Quaere by what authoritie the Ministers of forreine churches take on them to prescribe formes of discipline and new lawes vnto our Church seeing they teach that all churches haue equall power and whether this be not a foundation to a new popedome 22 Quaere whether all the errours of Barrowisme doe not folowe and may be concluded of Th. Cartw. Wat. Tr. and Dud. Fenners positions and whether this sort of men is fit to deale with those sectaries and ought not rather to be driuen to make a publike recantation of their foule opinions 23 Quaere in case a musterd seller or chandeller should be chosen a churchalderman and thought worthie to iudge of the highest matters of religion who should all that while furnish the common wealth with musterd and candels and whether that their sentences would not sauour ranke of musterd and tallowe and how many candlesellers or men of occupation they finde to haue bene present in Synodes of olde time at the debating of pointes of religion 24 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not flatly deny the principall pointes of her Maiesties supremacie and take from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the church to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from the Ecclesiasticall courtes to call Synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuour to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacie and her maiesties prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church and all her maiesties subiectes 25 Quaere if the establishment of the consistoriall discipline in the Church of England would not ouerthrowe infinite statutes most of the Common lawes diuers courtes of Iustice the two Vniuersities and innes of court and finallie the whole state and whether the Vniuersities in places where this discipline is entred be not decayed and the state shaken notwithstanding that the power thereof by diuers lawes contrarie to the rules of discipline is abridged 26 Quaere how many sound diuines or learned men there are that haue bene bredde in the places where this discipline is receiued and whether they haue not parted the Church goods among themselues where they were masters as the soldiors parted Christes coate giuing some little portion backe againe of the whole least they should liue all together without religion 27 Quaere whether it be likelie for the vaine hope of a hundred poundes pention depending on the vncerteine pleasures of marchants men of occupation and husbandmen that yong men of towardnes will giue themselues to the studie of diuinitie and what braue youthes are made ministers within the disciplinarians iurisdiction 28 Quaere how the spoyles of the Church which these men haue made in all places where they rule are bestowed and what portion thereof is come to the maintenance of learned men or learning 29 Quaere what commodities her maiestie doth receiue now by renthes subsidies first fruites patronages lapses custodies of bishops temporalities and how much the same amounteth vnto likewise what seruices she hath now by the Ecclesiasticall state and their followers and whether shee should not loose both great reuenues and make many faithfull seruitors vnable to serue her if this inkepot discipline shoulde come in place and if any man say that the same should be bestowed vpon noblemen and knightes and gentlemen that should succeede in the place of others let inquire be made whether some puritane dame doe not spend in apparell more then the reuenues of diuers cathedral churches and whether it would fall out that the reuenues of the Church would bee wasted vainely which now mainetaine manie able men to doe the prince seruice 30 Quaere whether in all places where the factious disciplinarians haue set foote in this Church they haue not set the people against their pastors and deuided the people among themselues and hardened mens heartes and made them without naturall affection and lifted vp their followers in pride and vanitie and made the people farre worse then before and sought nothing but their owne profite and aduancement 31 Quaere whether it be not a dangerous point to this Church and state that we are so much vrged by some to imitate the course helde for reformation by them of Geneua and Scotland heretofore considering the dangerousnes of their plattes and the effectes that followed vpon them and the vnsounde diuinitie whereupon they are grounded 32 Quaere by what point of discipline they of Geneua expulsed their Bishop and liege Lorde and right Countie of Geneua and what reuenues of the Church they seased into their handes and what portion they allowed backe againe to the poore ministerie and whether it bee not capitall in that state to speake for the estate of Bishops which pointes cleared it will appeare what reason they had first at Geneua to inueigh and declaime against the state of Bishops Quaere whether the peremptorie dealings of the ministers of Geneua and some others adhearing vnto them and the greedie sacrilege of their abbettors and followers and the vtter subuersion of the ecclesiasticall state which this antischolasticall and fantasticall discipline doeth euery where worke haue not greatly hindered the reformation of religion in France and other places and is not still likely to hinder the same vnlesse the same be newly recocted and reformed 34 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not deliuer doctrine as dangerous to princes as Rosse Sanders Allen and other papistes namely concerning excommunication deposing and murdering of princes that withstand the religion and reformation which eache of them respectiuely desireth 35 Quaere whether 1 History of the Church of Scotland pag. 213. Knoxe saide truely of Caluin and certeine other Ministers then residing at Geneua and if hee reporte their doctrine truely whether they holde a sounde point of doctrine teaching That it is lawfull for
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
must be ruinated and al lawes abolished that the confusion of the Consistorie barbarisme of this new discipline may triumph ouer the church In France and Scotland they want much of that discipline they desire nay the Ministers want meanes pore men to mainteine thēselues and their families yea the Church wanteth sufficient and learned ministers and is glad to vse the ministerie of boyes and vnlearned youthes wanting all thinges saue boldnes yet they will not say that for these disorders or want of their desires it is reason that the ministerie and their aldermen should be changed and all ouerthrowen The 2 1. Eliz. 2. Statutes giue power to her Maiestie and her ecclesiasticall commissioners to appoint orders for the ornaments of the Church doth it therefore follow that surplesses and other ceremonies are to be abolished By like reason a man may couclude that all lawes are entended to be taken away because the prince and parliament haue authoritie so to doe a reason well beseeming such sencelesse felowes as vnderstand no reason for nether is the consequent good a posse adesse nor if the conclusion were granted would this man obtaine his desire concerning his consistorial discipline for albeit alteration be made in the ministers apparel yet may the same be made the state standing and the consistorie falling to dust so that if he looke for no other alteration then that which is entended by our lawes he his consistorie may goe and consider vpon some better reasons In the meane while hee saith that some of our chiefe defendors of religion against the papists confesse That diuers abuses in ceremonies and discipline were tollerated among vs the church yeelding to the infirmitie of the weake which were to be altered when people grewe to riper knowledge Wherein as in other things he dealeth falsely for neither is it true that 1 Fulke retent pag. 98. Doctor Fulke saith That our ceremonies or discipline is to be altered nor is he though a most learned man one of our chiefe defendors But suppose it were granted that he then thought that some alteration in ceremonies and discipline were to be admitted doth it therefore followe that the church must be spoyled bishops and ecclesiastical persons put frō their charges and a sort of hungrie cormorants brought into gouernement againe suppose this one man in his youth were of some strange conceite cōcerning the euerlasting blessed consistorie yet doth not one make a number where then be the rest forsooth in the intention of the libeller that is now hatching of newe heresies Can. 20. and fooleries But saith hee the bishops confesse in their canons that non residencie is a filthie thing and diuers confesse that lay men should not meddle with excommunication and that diuers lewde and vnlearned Ministers haue entered into the Church which were it supposed to be true yet addeth nothing to the cause of the consistorie for we deny not that men be men that there be faults in the execution of lawes therefore such as offend are to be punished not as this discrasied disputor would cōclude al lawes to be abolished a new gouernmēt to be erected in the law we denie that there is eyther impietie or abuse in men we doe not deny nay wee wish that such as giue scandale were remoued that by their defaults the commō cause might not be hurt if the consistorial faction could cleare themseluelues of impietie abuse in their gouernmēt it would be better for thē but they must thinke that there are faultes among them aswel as among others that they are no angels but men yea and many very odde men and men made of very strange humors Master D. Cosin confesseth that the punishment of adulterie is too milde and others be of his opinion for we do not say that euery point of lawe is so perfect or that things can be so stable that there can be nothing added or detracted if they should say so of their consistorie as some men douteth not they should but make a great leasing as is euident by the particulers of their gouernment what then will the libeller conclude of this our opinion doth he thinke that his consistorial discipline must come in place if he do he is abused for the imperfections impieties iniustice thereof is to to notorious That in the consecratiō of bishops the pastoral staffe laying on of the bible is cōmanded by law to be vsed is one of the libellers lewd vntrueths for no such thing is foūd in the booke of ordeining of ministers neither doth any other lawe commande any such matter but suppose it were cōmanded the same were omitted were it reason as this libeller auoweth because the archbishop vnto whose discretion many things are referred by lawe omitteth some ceremonie that therefore euery contentious companion should breake all orders let this be put among the cōclusiōs of discipline or rather disorder for such in deed is this discipline a scholler would rather haue cōcluded that he ought to be forced to obserue law thē that others because he breaketh law in one point should take occasion to breake law in all to cōclude his vnsauery tale against the ecclesiastical gouernment he saith that a 1 Aduertisement to the Church of England c. lerned man friend to the bishops noteth as abuses their vrging of subscriptiō their othes ex officio their excōmunicatiō for trifles and easie silencing of ministers wherein he saith not amisse concerning the gentlemans learning for in deed he is both graue learned now vnderstandeth and hath learned that neither in subscription nor examination of parties vpon their othes ecclesiasticall iudges doe any thing against either lawes of God or men or reason nor that any is excommunicate for trifles or minister silenced but for good cause and by his owne default nor that subscription is a new deuise being vsed in most ancient counsels and with great rigour exacted at Geneua and in all France which I would also haue the libeller to learne and also to speake the trueth and to deale honestly for no man is excommunicate in ecclesiastical courts but for 1 Quo minor culpa co maior contumacia Beza aduers Erast contumacie neither is any put to silence but such as shew themselues rebellious but what if some abuse were would not reason require that the abuse should rather be taken away then that there should be made a dangerous innouation in state these things considered I referre to euery mans iudgement what maner of disputor this felow is that either speaketh no trueth or els alledgeth such matters as make not to the purpose that the fathers or counsels yea or late writers of name speake against such Bishops as we haue is vntrue that some malcontents haue declaymed against the state is not denied that there are abuses in execution of lawe therefore our lawes to be abolished and the consistorie to be
in his Church as these doe fancie I can no where find Neyther is it likely that he should teach that abroad which hee neuer deliuered to his owne Citizens at home Aretius 1 In 1. Cor. 12 speaketh of certaine elders in his Commentaries but whatsoeuer they were hee thinketh that they ought to haue no vse vnder the Christian Magistrate And therefore by this testimonie these fellowes cānot win any vantage That they were not like the disciplinarian Aldermen it may appeare for that during the times of persecution they supplied the magistrates office and dealt in all causes of the first Christians as hee thinketh Of such elders as Aretius speaketh of it may be that Illyricus had some such like conceit But farre were they both from the opinion of them of Geneua concerning their lordly consistorie that climeth vp aboue princes Out of 1 In 1. Cor. 12. Hemingius there cannot any such fancie bee gathered as this of my yong masters the Church aldermen writing vpon the 1. Corinth 12. hee doeth interprete the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordinances of ecclesiasticall discipline which amounteth nothing to the account of these fellowes yea hee alloweth the 2 Syntagm Heming prerogatiue and authoritie of Bishops aboue other ministers which can beare no sway among these lordly commanders The place of 3 In 1. Cor. 12. Hyperius maketh not to purpose for albeit he be produced by the libeller as a witnesse for the eldership yet doth hee testifie against it for hee saith not that any such aldermen as these conceyue were ioyned with the Bishop in gouernement and equall authoritie but that Bishops vsed the aduise of ancient and graue men not these rough hewen aldermen that are neyther wise nor graue but rather grieuous to Gods Church But most of all doe I wonder what reason the libeller had to cite 4 De reformand abusib ad Imperatorem Bucer who in the place quoted doth not so much as mention any elders much lesse teach their office qualitie and continuance but contrariwise hee sheweth that if there were no other difference betwixt the Papists and him hee would easily yeelde to bishops their titles and dignities and wisheth that Metropolitanes and other bishops woulde returne to the obseruance of ancient Canons And so farre was Bullinger from fauoring any such new packe of aldermen as these woulde haue that hee 5 In libr. erast de excom in fine yeelded his approbation to the opinion of Erastus that denied both the presbytery and presbyteriall censures Zegedin another of this mans witnesses doth say much against him concerning the 6 Loc. Com. pag. 202. superioritie of bishops and newe deuice of doctors and other poynts But where hee speaketh any one worde for the consistorial gouernours the place cannot yet be found what should I stand long in tracing out the notorious falsehood of this forger of false quotations in euery paticuler By these already examined you may vnderstand how honestly hee dealeth in the rest and by this also that it is knowen that the Churches of 1 Onely in the Palsgraues dition they say there is some haunt of the eldership to be found Germanie Denmarke and Zuitzerland doe all repell the eldership yea when certaine factious companions comming from Geneua would haue made some stirre in the ecclesiasticall gouernement at Zuricke Gualter resisted them and the magistrates sent them out of their citie to place their consistories in some other quarter in remotis Likewise doth he report vntrueth concerning M. Nowel M. Fulke and M. Whytaker M. Nowell speaketh some what concerning elders but that he meant the tēporary aldermen that sprung vp first at Geneua and now vse to come from the marchants stall and workehouse into the Church to order matters of faith and doctrine it cannot be surmised Neither hath the libeller any reason to build his fancies vpon M. Fulkes opinions for in the confutation of the notes of the Rhemish Testament he doth defend the gouernement of the Church of England as now it is albeit he was somtime of other mind yet did he afterward retract his former sayings And when Iohn Field contrary to his mind did publish the pamphlet called the learned discourse hee was offended with him and if he had liued would haue confuted the same himselfe Neither do I beleeue that M. Raynolds being so well conuersant in counsels and fathers doth admit an eldership contrary to the sayings and practise of both M. Whitaker is a man of too great iudgement to beleeue the vnlettered improbable deuise of the consistorie And well is it kowen that hee hath taught both publikely and priuately against it Neyther is it likely that hee hath nowe greater reasons to moue him since he maried in the tribe of those that fauour these conceites then before so that when al is come to all the authors of this discipline are 20 or 30 foreine authors and halfe a score English perfumed with the smoke of Geneua and wel read in Caluins Institutions And the grounds of it are not scripture nor antiquitie nor reason but conceyte and foolish fancie and the authoritie of such as deserue no credite speaking in their owne cause If the libeller thinke otherwise let him or else because hee is but a man of a weake brayne and small learning let any of the faction drawfoorth Caluins and Bezaes reasons nay let either Beza himselfe or any of them answere that which hath bene set forth against their opinions already and confirme Caluins and Bezaes weake and euill shapen reasons and then will the vanitie of all the newe platforme and also of these allegations appeare To prooue the continuance of the gouernement by Elders he falsifieth also diuers authors as Zuinglius Oecolampadius Capito Melancthon Bullinger and maketh lyes vpon Fulke and Reynoldes for I thinke master Raynoldes holdeth no such fancy And I am assured that Fulke retracted his opinion so that his onelie reason also for the continuance of the Eldership is because Miconius Micronius and Caluin Beza Daneau and Calueton Colladon Tauergues Perot Iacomot Duple Golart Pollan Perille Henry others neuer heard of in this horisō beleeue the continuance of the consistorial gouernment that we must renounce scriptures fathers and al antiquity which is neither a good nor learned kind of reasoning yet for any thing I can see it is not onely the best but also the onely reason he vseth deny the new fācies that they haue deuised embraced at Geneua you marre the frame of their consistory why wee should credit them against scriptures fathers stories there can be alledged no cause Much lesse is there reason we should beleeue Peter Carpenter a knowen Apostata from religion or Bodin a man better conuersant in pollicy then in diuinity and whose religion was al poperie yet if we should I do not finde any thing in eyther that soundeth to the honor of the Aldermens cause For 1 Aduers Fr.
crowne and for a contumacious and rebellious person that maketh question whether hee ought to obey such lawes as her Maiestie and the whole parliament and wisest men of England haue thought to bee godly and conuenient and lastly in what case the Putcase and his fellowes are that in broade speeches openly and in printed bookes directly oppugne them and by calumnious questions pinch at them 2 Quaere whether those that woulde ouerthrowe not onely the priuiledges and liberties of the Church of England but also the whole ecclesiasticall state their iurisdiction and liuings seeke not the ouerthrowe of Magna charta and infinite statutes and of a great part of the common lawes of this Realiue and seeke the dishonour of her Maiestie and the state by requiring at her handes things that tende to the violating of her oathe taken at the time of her coronation and the ouerthrowe of the rewardes of learning and whether such as are chiefe doers in these causes are longer to bee suffered to proce do in their presumption 3 And because the Putcase maketh mention of that reuerende Iudge Sir Christopher Wray late lorde chiefe Iustice of England let him also answere whether hee did nor both in his opinion as a iudge and in bitter reâ—mes as a man in vtter dislike of these mens obstinacie coudemne those that obstinately refused before ecclesiastical iudges to take their othes or to declare being examined mattens concerning themselues or others so farre as then concerned had life or member and whether the reuerend learned iudge and lawyers of England haue not resolued the proceedings of ecclestasticall courts to be lawfull and disallowed the notorious contumacie of those men that refused notwithstanding vpon their owne vaine conceipts to answere 4. Quaere whether the booke of Fenner that is intituled sacra Theologia and came forth with the Pythagoricall allowance of T. C. conteine not strange diuinitie and whether it be likely that the resolutions of the consistorie shoulde bemore learned then the positions of two such omniscient diuines 5 Quaere whether it bee not reason to make T.C. recant those dangerous opinions he hath published in that booke and whether those that made the newe communion booke are not to be called in question for publishing of new confessions offaith and new doctrine 6 Let also great inquiry be made by what law or title the churchaldermen do clayme so large authority both in ecclesiasticall and domesticall matters as lately they haue taken vpon them in some churches k Quaere what is become of the actes and memorials of the consistorie that is supposed to haue beene both in the Church of God vnder the lawe and vnder the Gospell and what may bee the reason that so famous men should neither haue their names nor doings mentioned in any historie holy or prophane or other writing Quaere whether such as suffer their children to die without baptisme because the time of the assembly of the congregation commeth not betweene their birth and death are not guilty of contempt of baptisme and whether they that teach this doctrine bee found christians that rather then they will breake a consistorial rule will suffer christians children to depart without the badge and marke of christianitie 9 Quaere whether they that cal those scriptures which are commonly called Apocryphall lyes and fables doe therein declare themselues to haue the iudgement of learned men or modestie of ciuill persons seeing the fathers of olde time and diuers learned men of our times also doe honor them next after the Canonicall scriptures 1 Zanch. confess and whether T.C. would not take it in euill part to haue his voluminous replies called lyes and fables which notwithstanding are farre inferior to the worst part of the Apocryphal scriptures 10 Quaere whether the consistoriall constitutions doe not bring into vse the iudiciall lawes of Moses as for example that of retaliation of capitall punishments of adulterie and blasphemie and whether felonies that were by Moses lawe punished ciuilly may not be punished with death and whether that the Consistoriall faction doeth not deny her Maiestie power to pardon offenders that by Moses iudiciall lawes are to be punished with death 11 Quaere how it happeneth that the disciplinarians shame not to speake against Bishops which themselues deny not to haue bene euer in the Church since the Apostles times and which we offer to proue to haue authoritie by the word of God seeing they commend a fond and new found gouernement that hath neither authoritie of lawe nor confirmation by ancient practise the lawes whereof are most absurde and vnreasonable 12 Quaere by what authoritie they interpre the wordes Dic Ecclesiae and presbyteriqui bene praesunt c. and the wordes of the Apostle 1. Cor. 12.28 Ephes 4.10 Rom. 12. contratrarie to all the ancient fathers to histories to themselues yea contrarie to the text it selfe and common reason 13. Quaere why Ministersshould not be forced as well to subscribe to the gouernmeÌ„t of the church of England as the ministers of France to the French discipline they of Geneua to the ordinances of Geneua these being so lately inuented and established and hauing so notorious exceptions against them and being no way to be compared to the orders of our Church for authoritie antiquitie or other good condition or qualitie 14 Quaere whether the Consistorie decreeing and proceeding contrarie to the discipline of France and Geneua and their new Zion is to be allowed or obeyed and whether euery acte of the Consistorie be lawe to binde the rest of that congregation and if it be then what certeintie can be in that gouernement and whether that gouernement be not worse then papall seeing the Popes proceede according to their owne lawes these fellowes will not be bounde by any lawes either of their owne or others 15 Quaere if the Consistories sentence be the sentence of the Church whereunto euery one is to obey and he that obeyeth not to be holden as a heathen and publican how it chanceth that the Synode sometimes is so bolde as to reuerse the Consistories sentence and not to holde the disobedient as a publican and sinner 16 Quaere if by the wordes It shall not be so with you all power of ordination iudgement making and executing of orders deposing of ministers and such like authoritie be taken from Bishops by what reason the ministers of the new discipline in their new Consistories and Synodes take on them so peremptorily to put in and out and to make lawes and to determine most absolutely and imperiously 17 Quaere what time of the yeere and vnder what signe the resolutions of the Consistorie are most ripe viz. whether when the sunne entereth into Aries or Capricorne or in haruest time or midsommer moone and whether a madman that hath Lucida interualla as one of the authors of the petition hath bee a sound man to make a piller of the Consistorie and what order is to be taken
recreate my selfe with this more easie labour and to answere their cauils at our proceedings in law together with such authorities as they bring for the proofe of their consistorie to the finall discouerie of their vnbrideled malice that all seeing the nakednesse of their cause may ioyne together to extirpate the reliques of those that haue bene causers of these stirres Against this my purpose I doe vnderstand that diuers exceptions are taken First those that fauour the consistoriall discipline doe say I withstand a noble worke of reformation and therefore cannot like of my doings but vnto these this whole treatise shall make answere for thereby it shall appeare that their whole course tendeth rather to confusion and disorder of Church and state then to reformation of eyther and therefore seeing they doe declare themselues open enemies both vnto the present state and to me in this cause I doe not regard what they like or dislike no doubt but that open enemies will like that best which for the State is worst and greatly prayse that which tendeth to the hurt thereof Others there are that condemne all those discourses that are written of both sides concerning this argument which albeit they would seeme to be friendes yet in deede are enemies as well as the other For no more is he an enemie that oppugneth vs in plaine fielde then hee that trecherously seeketh to discourage such as are forwarde in mainteining the State at home and albeit they would colour their malice with pretence of detestation of contention among friendes yet doe they vs wrong to accompt them that oppugne the state friendes or attribute the cause of contention to vs that onely defend the State against contentious and malcontent persons such as would ruinate the same for not those that defend but those that begin the braule are contentious Were it not thinke you a ridiculous thing for a man to say that valiant men that fight for their countrey are contentious and a poynt of trecherie to discourage them why then should not the like bee thought of those that condemne them that write in defence of the present gouernment of religion and learning in like degree as if they had writ against the same These men are sorie that any should stop the breach against such as seeke to enter to make spoyle and therefore as secret enemies or weake persons that neither vnderstand matters of State nor reason are to be contemned if not reproued A last sort there is that percase mislike the sharpenesse of my stile but they must consider that in this discourse I deale not against men of learning or grauitie or such as desire to learne or finde out trueth but against ignorant wilfull and seditious Libellers that seeke partly by falshood and partly by disgrace of some bad persons vnworthy of their places to discredite the whole ecclesiastical state against whom no sharpenesse of stile can be sufficient but I did respect rather what became me to speake then what they deserued to heare This discourse I present to your Lordship a man well acquainted with the humors of the men and weakenesse of their cause a Iudge most skilfull in law Vnto whom should wee seeke for resolution in law and redresse of wrong rather then to him that beareth so honourable a charge in matters of Iustice vnder your name I would it should come to the handes and viewe of all other reuerend Iudges learned Lawyers and well affected subiectes Wee desire nothing more then that matters may bee examined according to iustice and doubt not but if that may be obtayned that the controuersie will bee ended and the calumnious mouthes of factious persons stopped for seeing the platformers haue neither support of trueth nor law what man will doubt but that they are to be repressed aswell by Iustice as by disputation and discourse That is the meanes to ende all our complaynts the remedie of our common griefes if the perturbers of our State at home were first calmed I would not doubt but forrein aduersaries would soone be danted and the mindes of friendes vnited to the ioy of all that loue the trueth of Gods religion and seeke the long continuance of her Maiesties peaceable reigne and the florishing state of the Church Accept therefore I beseech you my good Lord this my good will which I testifie vnto you in this Treatise Due it is to you being so forwarde and vpright in matters of Iustice and was expected at my handes being specially touched in the petition which I answere I make your Lordship and all the learned yea all indifferent men iudges Iudge therefore according to iustice and trueth There is no reason I should require fauour in this cause further then my simple skill and vnsufficient handling of matters for want of time and being oppressed with other businesse shall require fauour The Lord send peace to his Church and heape vpon you and all others that loue his trueth all heauenly graces that by your meanes enioying the benefites of true religion iustice and peace wee may consent in one trueth and ioyntly in his holy Church glorifie Christ Iesus the Prince of peace In London the 20 of December Your Lordships in all duetie and heartie affection MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE The Preface wherein both the argument of the discourse ensuing is deliuered and certaine generall faults of the petition touched I Had once well hoped that eyther the authoritie of the Magistrate could haue commanded or the terrour of the common enemie that so violently doth assayle the whole Church at this time would haue enforced the contentious to make an ende of their braules and if neither reuerence of superiors nor respect of common profit could put them to silence yet did I imagine seeing they haue nothing to say that discretion and common sense would make them to hold their peace how much my expectation was deceiued this petition which I haue here vndertaken to answere doth declare for without respect to lawes or common profite yea or common reason the author thereof hath put forth himselfe to speake a man as you shal see without reuerence to superiours or conscience in reporting of lawes or iudgementin matters diuine or humane and most vnable to speake or write in this or other argument To goe no further this his petition shall make proofe of my words for neither is there art in his stile nor witte or sharpenesse in his arguments nor is there any decencie obserued in the discourse nor doth the treatise agree with the title nor the parts thereof with themselues the stile is like Iohn Bels song of Couentrie the sentences hang together like lenten deames first he kneeleth on his knee then asketh pardon afterward telleth of all good subiects how they desire peace and yet notwithstanding he telleth of many that increase contention then he talketh of writing of bookes of generall counsels and a newe kind of disputing by writing matters that neyther haue coherence among themselues
and which he hath set downe in malitious Articles and interrogatories shall be answered neither doe I meane therein to omit any speach that shall seeme any way pertinent to purpose being loth he should say he was not answered Wherein if you see no colour or shew of reason for this newfound platformes or proofe of his accusation consider then I pray you first what indignitie hath ben offered by this libellor to the Church of God to her Maiestie and her lawes to the Ecclesiasticall state and such as liue in obedience of lawes and secondly what they deserue that haue offered this indignitie vnto so many and honorable persons and brought this scandale into the Church of God the common 1 Rescius iâ— ministromach aduersarie maketh profite of those shameles slaunders which those vnciuil and vnlettered authors of the Admonition haue vttered against the Church the aduersarie triumpheth to see this contention disordered companions take occasion of contumacie and rebellion when will the gouernors vse like diligence to represse them If then you loue religion her Maiestie and the state you will not suffer such notorious reuellors at lawes and gouernors if you be desirous of trueth you will no more be abused with vaine gloses H. Nicholas hath painted his booke with quotations as full as T.C. he vseth the same stile and seemeth to haue the same erronious spirit He saith as well as T.C. that for Sions sake 2 In euangel regni he will not holde his peace and yet nether of both speaketh to purpose nor to the edifying but rather the pulling downe of Gods Church and therefore seing both the authors and their dealings haue bene tried let them be both dealt with all and esteemed according to their deserts It may be these felowes looked for answere of her Maiestie and to say sooth the Magistrate were most fitte to shape aunsweres for such disordered petitions but in the meane while it may please them to accept of my answere they are no such high persons but meaner men then her Maiestie may answere them reason it is seing they put their petition in print they should also receiue a printed answere and seing they chalenge me they should heare my answere And let them not thinke but that howsoeuer their malice is repressed by lawe their fond assertions and cauils shal be refuted by reason That trueth may appeare I haue done my endeuour God is my witnesse I seeke for nothing but trueth and peace there rosteth then nothing but that trueth be embraced and lawe maintained for little auaileth it to knowe either if by faction mutinie lawes may be broken trueth oppressed to make trueth and Iustice knowen it belonged to vs to defend the same belongeth to Magistrates to wish the same to all reade therefore and iudge and seeke the maintenance of Iustice and trueth without which neither Church nor state can be well gouerned AN ANSWERE TO A CERtaine calumnious Petition and also to certaine Articles and Questions of the Consistorian faction CAP. I. Wherein is declared that the authoritie and state of Bishops as it is vsed in England is lawfull and the Petitioners cauils brought to the contrary answered ALmightie God when he gaue Magistrates and Lawes vnto his Church appoynted first and next vnder the soueraigne Magistrate one high Priest to haue the 1 Deut. 17. leuit 13. exod 28. nom 3. 4. superintendence of the affaires of the church and vnder him 2 1. Chron. 24. 25. diuers heads of their diuisions that things might be done in order And lest wee might suppose that this was but a ceremoniall constitution vnder the Law of nature the chieftie of the Priesthoode ouer all his was first in Noe then in Sem then in Abraham then in Isac and Iacob afterward in the 12 Patriarkes which for many yeres gouerned their whole families both in matters diuine and humane If equalitie of ministers had bene so profitable no doubt God would haue vsed that order in his Church The Lawe ceremoniall ceasing our Sauiour ruled his Church as soueraigne Bishop of our soules he adioyned no fellowe aldermen to himselfe Departing this worlde he gaue commission to his disciples within those places where they remayned to gouerne the church So we reade that they did excommunicate alone that they did ordeine ministers alone yea and did by superiour authoritie order both the affayres and goods of the church Paul did excommunicate 3 1. Timoth. 1. Alexander and Hymenaeus Peter as Beza confesseth by the swoorde of excommunication strooke Ananias and Saphyra alone Beza aduers Erast Paul ordeined Timothy and Titus and Timothy and Titus ordeined other ministers The Apostle Paul prescribeth orders and lawes to Timothy and Titus and their churches the populer gouernement which our platformers commend was not so much as in time of persecution vsed This was the practise of the Apostles successors likewise Saint Iohn writeth to the bishop of Ephesus to the bishop of Smyrna and likewise to the seuerall Bishoppes of other Churches to them hee giueth directions them he reprehendeth for bearing with the wicked which if they had had no authoritie aboue other Ministers had bene very vnfitting All Ecclesiasticall stories writing of that argument giue witnesse that seuerall Bishops succeeded the Apostles at Rome Constantinople Alexandria Ierusalem Antioche other famous Churches Saint Ierome and diuers other ancient writers testifie that Marke ruled Alexandria as Bishop which happened in Saint Iohns time All counsels giue preheminence to Bishops ouer other Ministers and to the counsels the fathers subscribe by infinite testimonies whereof it may appeare that excommunication ordination and the gouernement of the Church next vnder the prince did belong to Bishops the wordes I haue set downe heretofore in my English booke written against this counterfeite newe discipline Saint Ierome hath a most pregnant place for excommunication Ieronym aduers vigilant where hee wondereth that no one Bishop could bee found to excommunicate Vigilantius and if all the gouernement of the Church was committed to Bishops no doubt but that they disposed of these matters also When in our times religion began to be reformed the chiefe learned men that then liued and tooke paines therein In histor Apologia confess August protested in their publike writinges to the entent that all posteritie should knowe it that if Bishops would embrace religion they would most willingly submit themselues to their episcopall iurisdiction accompting in most godly and expedient for the Church Melancthon vseth many speeches to that purpose fearing that if the authoritie of bishops were reiected a greater tyranny would succede and Caluine likewise to Sadolete protesteth that he misliketh not Episcopal authoritie Neither can any thing bee deuised more absurd then that equalitie of ministers which is brought in to ouerthrow Bishoppes for no gouernement can be without superioritie neither can any thing bee well ordered where there is no speciall care in some one it
is against all lawe all practise yea against all reason Therefore euen the malcontent disciplinarians that take away the name giue notwithstanding the authoritie of Bishops to their rulers of Synodes in whome if the same were as they say vnlawfull no reason it should bee continued any little time And further vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denying superioritie to Bishops ouer ministers they doe notwithstanding giue an vnbrideled and absolute authoritie to the Consistories These arguments and others which I haue set downe stand vnanswered that which is sayd against bishops may be most easily and hath often bene answered neither doth this vnlettered fellow bring either new arguments or confirme the olde nay he leaueth all arguments which his fellowes haue brought out of scriptures therein shewing good iudgement for in deede it is absurd to thinke that bishops may be ouerthrowen by scriptures vpon which their authoritie is built I wonder with what face after so many proofes brought in this cause hee durst goe about without arguments to ouerthrowe that which hath such grounde vpon scriptures lawes reasons onely for a shewe he hath brought a number of names of * Pag. 10. 11. counsels fathers Churches and late writers but when the matter shall come to triall it shall be found that they doe all forsake him in this cause and that both they and infinite more then these speake against him I answere therefore first generally that it is no good argument that in this cause is drawen from Daneau Tauergues Perot Chauneton Carpentier or other of their faction Secondly that these counsels and fathers and Churches and learned men which he quoteth haue not oppugned Bishops or their gouernement The canons of the Apostles are placed in forefront of this aray against Bishops Can. 6. c. 80. not that they speake against thē but for that it pleaseth the petitioner to make some shewe in the entrance of his matter of apostolicall authoritie in the sixt Canon there is no mention made of Episcopall iurisdiction so that it may appeare that he looked not on the place It may be he meant the seuenth Canon for there both Bishops Priestes and Deacons are forbidden to meddle with worldly affaires and in the 80 Canon Bishops Priestes are charged not to intrude themselues into publike charges But neither place maketh one word against the superioritie of Bishops ouer Ministers nor their authoritie in ordination excommunication and other Ecclesiastical matters for which they are alledged nay contrariwise they giue ordination 1 Can. 2. 36 of Ministers to Bishops and plainely distinguish 2 c. 1. 2. 40. Bishops and priestes giuing to Bishops both superioritie ouer priests and also the 3 c. 40. 41. disposing of the affaires of the Church that Bishops in the primitiue Church were excluded from ciuil charges the reason was for that the Emperors were yet heathen and therefore without danger of impietie none could deale in office vnder them and in those times the offices about collection of the Emperors rentes were 4 ff de decurionib burdensome and dishonorable and therefore no maruaile if Bishops might not beare them last of all they were subiect to accomptes yet howsoeuer it was the Canons forbid not Bishops to susteine a charge imposed vpon them but ambitiously to seeke such charges generally seculer matters were not forbidden Bishops as may appeare in the same Canons 5 c. 41. so that neither doe these places make against our bishops vnder Christian princes in common wealthes wherein they are subiectes as wel as others and by their authoritie helpe their calling yea and the whole ministerie vnder them and no way hurt it neither doe they fit the petitionners purpose For Bishops by their episcopall office doe claime no ciuil authoritie nor doeth it folowe because Bishops may not beare certeine ciuil offices that therefore they are not to exercise episcopall authoritie as the petitionner doeth insinuate Next to the Apostles Canons as they are called hee citeth the 6 counsell of Carthage 19. c. but there do not appeare any Canons to haue beene made in that counsell so wide is the man from his marke commonly his fellowes vse to alledge the 4 counsell and 18 and 19 Canon yet doe not these canons fit their turne for nothing is there spoken against the office of Bishops either in ordination or contentious iurisdiction onely Bishoppes are forbidden to take on them the execution of testaments which notwithstanding hath 1 Concil Chalced. c. 3. exceptions and to bee common quarrellers in lawe which no man thinketh conuenient neyther canon maketh any thing to the purpose were not this man without discretion he would neuer alledge this counsell against Bishops that so 2 c. 3.27 31.55.68 diuersly confirmeth the authoritie of them and condemneth such 3 c. 57 67. libellers and raylors as the authors of this petition Neyther doth the counsell of Chalcedon decree any thing against the state of Bishoppes the Canons alledged onely forbid them as the puritane Ministers whereof some are grasiers some fermers some malsters doe vse to doe to hire grounds which payd rent and tribute to the Emperor or to deale in ciuil affaires or warfare least therby they should neglect their ministerie a pregnant place against diuers of these counterfeit hypocrites that shaking of their Ministerie and disdeining the base accompt of it trade in vsurie marchandise fermes and other such like occupations giuing ouer themselues to serue mammon This counsel maketh nothing for the cause of Puritans for it establisheth the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops and condemneth such malitious and factious persons as they are that by 1 c. 17. calumnious accusations conspire the hurt or disgrace of their bishops The Petitioner doth also alledge the 6 counsell of Constantinople yet doe we not in the bookes of counsels finde any of that number nor in any counsell holden at Constantinople any thing against the authoritie or dignitie of bishops it may be he mistooke the 6 counsell of Constantinople for the 6 synode yet doeth not that speake against bishops but rather enacteth diuers 2 Synod 6. ca. 9. 10. cannons against vsurie a practise which Th. Cartw. and W. Ch. and others might doe well not to vse and for the dignitie of bishops many 3 Synod 6. c. 31. 36. 37. places To let vs further vnderstand his ignorance hee quoteth the 3 counsell of Turon whereas there were neuer but two there in neither of them any word sounding against the authoritie of bishops perhaps he meant by names of coūsels to face downe simple men or thinketh it no sinne for the glory of the consistorie to lye I beseech him to shewe vs where this 3 counsel of Turon may be found and then he shall haue further answere Beside the new third counsel of Turon he hath deuised a new counsell also of Macra which course if he hold on I
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
haue good cause to speake Bernarde 4 De consid ad Eugen. lib. 2. speaketh against the Pope for clayming soueraintie in both swordes which no bishop in England claymeth neither doth any bishop by his episcopall authoritie exercise the materiall swordes as the Pope doeth and therefore as Bernards reasons are good against the Pope so are they not to be vsed against our bishops neither was it euer Bernards meaning to condemne the prerogatiue of bishops allowing the same in so many of his epistles and writings and commending so highly the bishop of Rome notwithstanding his infinite abuses he 5 Serm. 66. in Cantic non est mirum si ordinibus ecclesie deirahunt si mandatis non obediunt bitterly inueigheth against those heretickes which for their apish imitation of the Apostles called themselues Apostolickes because they condemned prelacy and therefore calleth them Stultissimos obstinatissimos Thus the man or at least his partakers haue sought euery corner of the Fathers and yet finde nothing against the prerogatiue of bishops therfore is hee glad to flye to the practise of late churches late writers but the conclusion which he draweth from them is most weake for admit that in Geneua in France Flaunders and other churches they haue not bishops of such quality in all respects as wee haue no more haue other churches such Elders as they of Geneua haue it is sufficient that we haue such bishops as in time past they had at Ierusalem Constantinople Alexandria Antioch Carthage Seuil throughout the world before that the cornercreeping Aldermē crept out of the slime of fond mens inuention that the bishops in reformed churches of Almayne haue episcopal authoritie ouer other ministers in ordination of ministers correction of maners so that they are to be blamed that digresse from all antiquitie yea and later churches not we that agree with al former times and the Almayns for both they the Danes albeit some of them mislike the names and most of them haue taken away the liuings of bishops yet reteine still their authoritie and office in their superintendents generall superintendēts and had done better if also they had reteined the liuings rewards of learning stipends of ministers wherefore let the libeller cease to obiect vnto vs the Heluetian and Dutch and Danish churches for they differ farther from the Geneuians then from vs and the petitioner himselfe 1 Pag. 10. confesseth that they haue authoritie though not so much Of late writers I know none of name that hath condemned our bishops euen the chiefe authors of this innouatiō Caluin and Beza as may appeare by their letters which are to be shewen speake euery where honourably of them Zanchus greatly extolleth that order onely Beza as some say hath written a foolish 2 Entituled The iudgement of a learned man beyond the sea pelting discourse wherein he would proue our bishops to proceed of men as if himselfe were a bishoppe of God and Daneau in that poynt consenteth with him taking himselfe also to be a bishoppe of God and yet the Geneuians when through weakenesse of body sicknesse and age hee coulde not execute the ministerie shut this bishop of God from his liuing and forced him through want to depart out of their Citie Bullinger and Gualter and diuerse learned men of Suitzerland and Germanie haue by letters and writings allowed our bishops yea 1 Histori confess August Melancthon Camerarius Sturmius wished to God they had such in their Countreys neyther did any of these that are named by the libeller euer speake against other then papisticall bishops let the worlde then iudge what honestie or shame was in this companion that alledgeth Luther Melancthon Bucer Caluin Beza Bullinger Zanchus Erastus Gualter and Mounster against our bishops whereof some neuer spake of them others neuer spake of them but with reuerence and none against them and 2 In diuers of his letters to be shewed Beza complaineth of some that drewe his wordes vttered against popish bishops against our bishops If therefore the libeller do not bring forth some other places then these hee hath quoted there is no cause but that euery man shoulde take him for a forger of false writings and an abuser of his reader But suppose Beza or Daneau or some other of that sort shoulde write their pleasures in priuate letters or in their imperious paltrie pamphlets who would not be ashamed to oppose these two or all their headie followers to Ignatius Dionysius Chrysostome Augustine Ambrose Hierome and all antiquitie yea to most writers of late times And if these men that patronise the consistorie which cannot stand with bishops for in deede there is no agreement in gouernement betwixt the rusticall fauni and the muses betweene learned men and men of occupation betweene clownes and schollers if these I say doe not speake against bishops wee may not thinke that bishop Iewell orbishop Elmar or bishop Bollingham or others that haue written in defence of the state haue vttered any thing that soundeth to their disgrace 1 In his Apologie Bishop Iewell expressely defendeth the degree of bishops aboue priestes and good reason for it is the publike doctrine of this Church and those that goe against it make this Church to reuoke a part of their publike confession and doe more harme by their secret trechery then euer did Harding by his open enmitie neyther can there be a greater scandale or dishonour offred to religion or the state then that we should now alter the publike confession of faith made by our Church Iewell saith that the office of prince and bishop is distinct and no man denieth it for no man by the office of bishop challengeth as doth the pope soueraigntie of both swords but if any conclude because bishops ciuil officers are distinct that a bishop shal doe no ciuil office he wil conclude that hee may not looke to his house nor do the office of a subiect nor fight for his country which is a nice point of puritanisme and little better then trechery and by the same reason should ministers be excluded both from gouernement of colledges and hospitals and al offices in the vniuersities whereto our puritanes ambitiously aspire are as great canuasers as any notwithstanding their ministerie or puritanisme Neither can master Nowels words be stretched against bishops for what if Christ would not receiue riches or dominion of the deuil may not a minister receiue a benefit of a Prince or because Christ forbade them to rule as Princes may they do no offices of good subiectes but liue like traitors or like puritanes that liue in open contēpt of lawes if then the petitioner had any conscience he would not alledge Mr. Nowel against bishops whose authority he mainteineth against Dorman and whose resolution for this present gouernement is sufficiently knowen Master Bilson distinguisheth betwixt apostolicall gouernement and princely gouernment but hee
nor dispraised for euill doing neither is there any memoriall of their doings nor recorde of their names nor note of their succession nor being in the whole scriptures Nay not so much as the Rabbines or the histories of Philo or Iosep make any mention either of their names life acts death or any thing cōcerning thē which were wondrous strange if any such extrauagant cōmanders had bene for howsoeuer it fareth with others the acts of gouernours cannot lie hidden To be short nothing can be more absurd then that such odde companions as these aldermen are shoulde controll Princes and iudge of religion being most of them without the function of priesthoode or knowledge of diuinitie or good letters The same reasons may also perswade vs that there were no such church gouernours in the Apostles times or after There appeareth first no institution of them Secondly no lawes wherby they are to gouerne Thirdly no act of theirs Fourthly no commendation or reproofe of their persons or doings Fiftly their authoritie was inuested in the Apostles by our Sauiour to whom also the keyes were giuen and not to these false aldermen that come in rather like burners of houses then gouernours of Churches with counterfeite keyes Sixtly in the whole storie of the Acts of the Apostles there is not the least suspicion of them neyther doe they stand vpon any thing but false interpretations of 3 or 4 places of scripture Nor to conclude can any thing be more vnlikely then that our Sauiour Christ Iesus the wisedome of God hauing giuen the keyes of Iurisdiction and knowledge to his Apostles and their successors would take the same from them and hang them at the elbowes of men without authoritie knowledge or discretion such as the Church Aldermen are for the most part In the times succeeding next to the Apostles all histories counsels fathers giue witnesse to the gouernement by bishops in time of persecution and after the time of persecution by bishops vnder the soueraigne direction of Christian Princes Neyther for 1540 yeeres did euer this foolish conceit come in any mens heads that merchantes men of occupation musterd sellers and tinkers were men sufficient for the gouernement of Churches Then which nothing can be deuised more absurd nor inconuenient It is the high way to all heresies for when matters be decided by voyces of men that neuer knewe Scriptures Fathers nor tongues how is it possible that they should teach trueth or continue in trueth or meete with errours this is the principall cause of the multitude of heresies in the lowe Countries The same also would be a Seminarie for schisme for when all parishes and ministers and Consistories haue equall iurisdiction as these fellowes teach that they ought to haue who shall remedie contentions that fall out the synode a mere conceite for what neede they to care for the synode or the censures thereof that by no lawe are subiect to synodes All learning would decay for who should neede to studie if a Taylor comming warme from the shopboard be a man fit to gouerne the church or who can haue any courage to studie where this sacrilegious discipline that hath made hauock of all the reuenues of the church is placed and the stipends that are allotted to learded men shall bee arbitrary and may bee taken away at the discretion of a sort of ignorant marmarchants clownes and men of occupation Fourthly where there is no lawe prescribed how can the Iudges bee kept in temper euen now notwithstanding all lawes and penalties that may be deuised partialitie fauour hatred and other affectons beare sway How much would they sway more if the Consistorie should come in place which is ruled onely by will and pluralitie of voyces and not restrayned but by pretence of God worde which euery man vseth to construe to his owne profit Downe would the princes reuenues fall and the Realme be left without meanes of defence and made vnable to resist the enemie If any man thinke that the spoile of the church should come to the princes hands he abuseth himselfe The spoyles of other places do teach vs what would fall out yea our owne experience may herein sufficiently instruct vs. For albeit in the ouerthrow of Abbeys the Prince had some share yet are not now the Princes of this land able to mainteine that force that in time past they were when great nōbers of both horsemen footmen were maintained at the charge of religious houses the reuenues whereof now are wholy imployed yet scarce able percase to buy some one meane gentlewoman a verdugal so leudly are they spent so great is the pride waste of men the reason of it is this that what they spent thē in mainteining of men the same is now spent in veluets silkes glittering coates Suppose then that the church goods should come to spoyle do you thinke they would be better spent it should seeme no for all is now spent in surfet excesse that in time past was spent in mainteining of men And I knowe where in certaine manors taken from bishops thousands of men were mainteined the reuenues of all which do not now buy peticoates for my mistres the owners wife and her maydens not a man of al their tenāts scarce able to do her Maiestie seruice at his owne charge they are so fined skinned All those that liue by learning should be turned along to picke sallets whereby Poperie hauing no resistance would finde easie entrance and those that are best able being discouraged for want of meanes make least resistance Vnto all these points the Libeller saith but litle only vpon one point he stādeth that the hot pursuers of their pretended reformation haue some inducemēts to thinke that there hath bene in the world some such consistory as he imagineth but where or when he knoweth no certaintie nay he knoweth not what maner of beast the same is His proofes they be so weake that I marueile hee was not ashamed to make muster of them scriptures he bringeth none Aworld to see how those that in oppugning our state were so copious in allegations of scriptures to mainteine their Aldermen and Discipline doe not so much as endeuour to bring any scripture or by reason drawen thence to confirme their cause The Fathers as him selfe confesseth speake obscurely his chiefe helpe is in Caluin Iunius Beza Dancau yea and such obscure compagnions as Bertrand de loques Bastinge Charpentier du Pleurre Golart Iacomot Pollan and a rable of others not worth the naming But if the consent of halfe a score base writers and of bad alloy be so forcible as to perswade the good liking of the consistorie what reason haue wee to stand in defence of our gouernment by bishops which hath the consent of so many generall counsels so many Fathers so many ages yea so many learned men also of our time as these bee and as well learned and godly as the other diuers of whose pietie hath passed
portum Carpenter the matter is euident for he most bitterly inueigheth against them of Geneua and not very doubtful in 1 Bodini methodus historiae c. 6. Bodin For the wordes alleadged out of Bodin his methode of histories concerne the Aldermen nothing He speaketh of the censure of Bishops and did neuer imagine nor could conceiue that the censures of the Church were put in the hands of prophane men Illa pontificum censura saith he nihil maius aut diuinius cogitari potuit Secondly he doeth not commend the men he speaketh of but the censures for that they were so strictly executed Which commendation if magistrates were as willing to execute the censures of ecclesiastical Iudges with vs as at Geneua they are would no doubt worke like effectes with vs as with them And if the magistrate should not fauour them they would doe litle good in any place Thirdly he commendeth the same censure not as the institution of Christ or as a necessarie pollicie for the Church but as a very good pollitike and ciuill order deuised by men to keepe the common sort in awe But what if Bodin should say somewhat of matters he vnderstoode not his authoritie is very weake in this case being neither good in diuinitie nor excellent in pollicie and neither vnderstanding the state of Geneua nor our countrie and therefore no fit man to make vs here in England new lawes In the Harmony of Confessions there are certaine wordes inserted sounding much to the commendation of the Eldership Neither is it to be marueiled if they of Geneua that collected thē together made the wordes to sound as fauourably as might be for their owne state and gouernement but that all the churches or most of thē yea or any saue the disciples of the Geneuian eldership consent in one harmony of prayses of that forme of discipline cannot be proued No although the authors with 2 See the notes in the latter ende of the harmonie notorious falsifications wresting and forgerie drawe the sentences of the confessions frō their purpose to speake for the presbyterial gouernment Wherefore vnlesse the petitioner can iustifie this kinde of practise there is not so much credit wonne by the vaine names of Carpenter Bodin and the confessions of Churches as there is lost by forgerie falsifications and grosse leasings To strengthen the weake ioynts of this discrasied reason drawen frō authority he saith Frist that the consistorial gouernment is also receiued of the Churches of Heluetia the low countries Millain Poland and Hungarie Secōdly that it is vnder the Turke among the papists wherein he sheweth either singuler malice in lying wilfully or presumptuous ignorance in speaking of matters he vnderstood not For it is wel knowen that the churches of Heluetia neither haue Geneuian elders nor excōmunication And that the churches of the lowe countries to speake nothing of France nor Scotland liue in great confusiō disorder a matter rather to moue vs to refuse the consistorie then to embrace it And likewise it is euident that in Millaine Hungarie there is no visible church but of those that professe poperie And albeit there be some fewe elders amōg the papists of France Germanie and Hungarie yet doe they not shew thēselues nor haue they any allowance or thankes for being there But what maner of conclusion is this That because among papistes and Turkes Elders are receiued that we must also receiue them There are also Anabaptists Arrians and I know not how many heresies among the Turkes papistes which no reason requireth vs to embrace Poperie likewise is professed vnder the Turke not onely this consistorial discipline So that nothing can be more absurde then to conclude that therefore we are to admitte the Consistorie because it is crept in in Turky and among the papistes Likewise it is a vaine bragge to say That in the Church of Geneua Scotland France there bee thousands and ten thousands of the best diuines of the worlde I would the number of them were greater and their learning more excellent then it is I doe not enuie their nombers nor excellēcie but the rewarde of learning taken away and the great decay that hath hapned of late time in those churches doeth both teach vs what is now and what we are to feare and that when the reckonnig of good diuines is made it will come farre short of thousands much shorter of tenne thousands The ignorance want of ministers in France other Consistoriall places is too too lamentable such is the blessing of this countrie that one corner of England is able to match them all eyther in nomber or qualitie of learned men albeit we doe not reason from our owne authoritie The conclusion therefore that this bedlem discourser maketh is too too foppish viz. that Caluin and Beza and Tauergues and Chauueton and Perot and I know not who are more likely to finde out the trueth then the author of the remonstrance and my selfe for no man standeth vpon the authoritie of vs two though the simpler of vs in this cause feareth not T. Cartw. nor W. Trau no nor Beza their patriarke nor all their brags Neither doe I desire any man to beleeue me because I say so this is onely the conclusion of the platformers that beside the authoritie of men can say nothing for themselues But seing the interpretations of the consistoriall faction are fond fantastical singuler and contrary to scriptures to the Iewes histories to all the fathers and counsels yea contrary to all reason good concluding agree badly among thēselues and finally stand vpon the fooleries of the Geneuians their stupide followers vpon their falshood forgerie false allegatiōs abusing of scriptures I do thinke and auow that neither diuinitie nor humaine reason wil permit any man any longer to be abused by them or to giue credit to those that vse them Wherefore cōsidering the weake groundes which the consistoriall gouernement standeth vpon and the forgerie falshood and impudencie whereby it is supported and the disorder and confusion it would worke in the church in learning in lawes in her Maiesties authoritie in her reuenues in euery mans priuate right beside if it were receiued and lastly the seditious lewd courses that some men haue taken to establish the same If some haue bin punished it cannot be denied but that they haue wel deserued it yea that they haue deserued more punishment and lesse fauour For neuer was matter preferred with worse course which I doe not speake for that I would haue either the disciplinarians faultes or penalties aggrauated for the faults are grieuous in ough already and the punishment I referre to our superiors but least any should surmise they are wronged or that the lawes are rigorous or that the proceedings of her Maiestie and officers against them are iniurious For further declaration whereof I haue thought good not onely to answere the vaine cauils of the petitioner against the proceedings of
which is sayde of a hundred thousande handes hee answereth that it is meant of a subscription to a supplication which if it were graunted yet woulde the same bee very strange if not rebellious for what is such a supplication but a coniuration or at least 1 Armatae preces armed prayers But saith hee Martin doeth not there exhort to rebellion neyther doe wee charge him with it but wee say that hee speaketh seditiously and that he insinuateth that puritans if they should not haue their supplication graunted would either haue gone away discontent or taken part with the enemie and that the packe of puritans entend rebellion for that appeareth First by confession of Martin that insinuateth they had many ready to maintayne that cause and next by those vagrant rogues that came downe into all shires with billes crauing subscription which is nothing but the beginning of a coniuration for neuer did so many ioyne but in rebellion nor can such a nomber confederate themselues without danger to the state And if the Prince were not exceeding clement she would teache them the payne of subscriptions and confederation for to obteyne alteration of State especially when Martin threatneth that so many would strike a great stroke which is very true for so many and lesse too being well armed and gouerned are able to fight with any prince in the worlde Neyther will it serue that hee sayeth that the speach is Tropologicall for it is rather Diabolicall and trayterous The wordes of 2 Vindiciae con tyrannos Iunius Brutus that for the eldership sayth it is lawfull to mooue stirres are disclaymed by the Libeller but litle knoweth he who is the authour of that booke for it was made eyther by Beza or Hotoman and conteyneth nothing but consistoriall doctrine Neyther doe I thinke that he will disclayme T. C. that meaneth to fight so stoutly that if euery hayre of his head were a life hee woulde afforde them all in defence of his platforme Nor of Goodman Gilby Whittingham and the Geneuians without whome this cause cannot stand Therefore if the Libeller renounce rebellion and the doctrine of it he must also renounce the nource of rebellion the Consistorie and all his deare darlinges vpon whose bare names as it were vpon emptie barrels hee buyldeth his consistoriall barriquades and bulwarkes Where they threaten troubles if they may not haue the discipline the Libeller answereth that thereby they meane scholasticall troubles while both partes write concerning discipline but that cannot be the meaning of the author for he meant troubles that would ensue and not which already were But the contention about discipline in writing before that time was at the hottest Neither is there any other sence to bee drawen out of the wordes but that great and bloody stirres would be about discipline if the same might not otherwise be obteined finally it is the common proceeding of the consistorie that without wracke and force did neuer enter either at Geneua or in France or Scotland Whereunto Th. C. in the conuenticle or synode in Warwickeshire as is supposed layde a good foundation for there the discipline was set downe there subscription and promise was made that all ministers should aduance it by all their power No doubt they meant as well force as fayre meanes for therein they haue neuer bene scrupulous Hee answereth also in defence of the Scottish ministers but he sayth nothing of the Roade of Ruthuen and Sterlinge and concealeth most dangerous matters wandring from the purpose in a generalitie of wordes Hee did not remember that 1 A noble precedent of consistoriall excommunication Galloway at Saint Iohnston cursed both the men that should take part with the King and their horses and speares and how Iames Gibson vsed the King very homely and how Iohn Cooper refused to obey the King And howe Andrewe Meluin vsed very tart speeches towarde him and yet obstinately refused to acknowledge him selfe bounde to answere his contempt these matters the petitioner eyther vnderstoode not or would not call to remembrance hee also seemeth to bee ignorant how vpon such like insolent behauiour the King tendring certaine articles to the Scottish Preachers as first that they should yeelde their obedience to the King secondly that they should not pretende Priuiledge thirdly that they should not meddle in matters of State fourthly that they should not publikely reuile his Maiestie that they neuer yeelded to subscribe A notorious argument of singuler insolencie in them if it bee as is reported and simplicitie in the petitioner that going about to cleare his cause giueth occasion of further matter against it Where wee alleadge that Brutus Iunius a Consistoriall writer or to speake more playnely Hotoman or Beza sayth that the people of themselues may set vp Gods seruice and abrogate superstition and that it is lawfull for the people by force of armes to resist the Prince if he hinder the buylding of the Church which these men take specially to consist in the eldership And where also wee set downe many trayterous speeches out of Goodman Gilby Martin T.C. and others the Libeller answereth first that these authors wrote against tyrants and enemies of religion as if the pretence of religon were sufficient to arme the subiects to depose the prince wherein is declared that these men accompting those that stop the eldership enemies of religiō hold that such princes as hinder the eldership may be deposed also which is an answere euill beseeming a man professing allegiance to her Maiestie and pretending to bee of the best sort of subiects Secondly hee saith that the same speeches are alledged by the Papistes to condemne our doctrine but that answere maketh much against the Puritans and not vs for wee condemne both that practise and that doctrine and those that haue giuen such a scandale to the Church They embrace it and therefore are condemned as perturbers of the State And albeit nowe they alter their hint and teache obedience changing faith with time yet that was their opinion once and I doubt not will bee as oft as time serueth Thirdly hee answereth that the doctrine of the consistorie dependeth not on two or three which we doe not affirme in this cause for we say that these opinions are generally imbraced of that faction and of the chiefest of them and that the same is so ioyned with the consistory that without the same it can not be mainteined for if the prince bee chiefe gouernour of the church the consistorie hath no place and if the consistory haue place away goeth the princes authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes Lastly he giueth out that our English bishops as well as the consistoriall faction haue rebelled against princes which answere first is not concludent for the offence of one is no protection for others secondly it is false The petitioner ought to haue shewed who these rebels be and where their rebellion is defended by bishops such as now we haue If he cannot shew them
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
forger be packing that without authoritie maketh out new commissions and new lawes Their desire is that euery congregation c. might haue one Petitioner or two sufficient teachers c. faithfully labouring in the worde of God or doctrine If their congregations be as great as shires Answere two would be too litle for euery such congregation and besides that the course that is alreadie taken for preachers is better then they can deuise any For now in diuers shires there bee hundreds of preachers distinguished in parishes If euery parish bee a sufficient congregation as in deede it is how shall two bee maintained in euery parish where as nowe not euery tenth parish with the liuing that belongeth to the Church is able to maintaine one preacher Doth he thinke men wil enlarge their liuing If he doe he doth but dreame And as for the deuises of him that cogged vs forth the motion with submission sounding an alarme to the sacrilegious spoyle of the Church they would bee the ouerthrowe rather of learning then the maintenance of the ministerie for other great birds gape for that pray As for these poore dawes when they haue made way for others they may go picke wormes for any part they can get thereof themselues when Abbeyes were ouerthrowen 1 That appeareth by the preface of the statute concerning that poynt erecting of schooles hospitals and colledges of preachers was pretended but whither the spoyle went wee doe well vnderstand and doe not thinke that there will be other prouision nowe then was then or that men will in spoyling bee more religious now then some were then They woulde haue assisting elders Petitioner c. that should not encroch on the magistrates authoritie and they would haue the most honest and sufficient men togather for the poore and keepe the treasure of the Church The treasurie of the Church woulde bee so thinne Answere if this deuise of elders and lay deacons shoulde take place that they shoulde not neede to take any care for the keeping of the treasurie At Geneua and in the reformed Churches of France as they call them the treasurie is all but one poore almes boxe They neede not feare robbing why then should any that fauoureth the Church like of their beggerly deuise or of assisting elders proctors for the poore that are but new conceits calculated by a glasse of wine vnknowen to scriptures fathers and antiquitie and borne out with sacing and sauour of nought but sacriledge Neyther can his aldermen nor lay deacons bee prooued nor doe they abstaine from encroching vpon the magistrate nor will any such men as hee supposeth take on them the base function of lay deacons and therefore all these desires are nothing but a fardell of foolerie They would haue olde helpers so quallified Petitioner as the Apostle commandeth 1. Tim. 5. Doe they knowe what they would haue Answere Let them shewe eyther commandement in scripture or practise in the primitiue Church or Church of Geneua of their olde widowes and then I woulde hope they had some care or knowledge what they desired if they cannot then I woulde pray some yong helpers to helpe vs away with such old fablers They would haue all these ordeyned in such maner Petitioner and by such persons as the word of God practise of the primitiue Church and moderne Churches doth warrant What if these moderne Churches neyther agree among themselues Answere nor with the worde of God nor primitiue Church will you not then confesse that you require things not coherent and that cannot stand together Looke where you finde any lawles counterfeite lay elders in the ancient Church or where any ordeyned but the bishop looke whether at Geneua there bee consistories in euery parish and what authoritie they haue And see whether Scotland doth not condemne imposition of handes and diuers orders which Geneua alloweth All these deuises cannot stand together and therefore if you had learned any thing in lawe you might well vnderstand that forasmuch as you alledge things contrary your libell and petitions are to bee reiected They desire synodes particuler prouinciall and nationall Petitioner and moderators of them They must shew better reasons Answere or else no man will regarde their desires Oecumenicall synodes and synodes of diuerse nations they exclude and ridiculously distinguish particuler from prouinciall synodes and make particoloured synodes and a mash of lawes fitter for sicke horses then men And by the same they goe about to ouerthrow the ancient gouernement of the Church the lawes of the Realme the prerogatiue and reuenues of the Crowne and to say all in one worde both religion and learning They woulde Petitioner that the partie grieued might appeale from the particuler congregation or synode at the first instance to the magistrate This seemeth to mee a poynt that will hardly bee prooued Answere for the common receiued opinion is contrary Beza doth flatly deny it and others exclude the prince from all iudgement yea and office in ecclesiasticall causes This fellowe therefore is the onely singuler doctor of discipline that giueth cognition of appeales from synodes to the prince But marke I pray you the ridiculous ignorance of this simple fellowe first he would haue the appeale from the synode or particuler congregation in the first instance And yet euery man may see that the first instance was where the cause was first begunne that is in the parish or consistorie and not before the synode Secondly he wil not say that any man may appeale in the last instance for that were too much as hee thinketh so that still running on in the disloyall tunes of puritanes hee taketh from the prince the last cognition and giueth it to his synodes They desire that such people Petitioner as be alreadie capable and willing to liue as becommeth Churches of Christ might liue as they bee commanded by Christ If euery man might liue as he list Answere so hee coloured his pretence with Gods word and Christes commandement there would neyther papist nor other heritike be repressed for euery man maketh religion and Christs commandement a couer for his pretences But gladly would I he should answere me this question whither hee doth thinke that none doe liue as becommeth Churches of Christ but such as haue his dogbolt deuises of elders and their doltish gouernement if hee answere so as here he seemeth then must I tell him that there can be no greater slander of this state or of her Maiestie and the gouernement If not what doth he tell vs here of people capable and willing to liue as becommeth the Churches of Christ as if the people of England were neither capable nor willing so to liue Againe let him tell mee in good sooth whither hee doth beleeue that the consistorie and newe discipline thereto belonging was in deede commaunded by Christ and if hee beleeue it let him shewe the place and the
Egerton seeme to haue had intelligence with Copinger one of Hackets prophets as for Wigginton it is apparant that he was a chiefe slirrer in that action 21 Being cōuented for diuers misdemeanors they refuse the ordinarie trials of lawe 22 In the Vniuersities by bringing in the studie of Ramus writinges a man ignorant in Logicke and artes and fantasticall in all actions they haue almost ouerthrowen all good learning by studying of naked comments all sound diuinitie 23 In liuing lewdly themselues Rescij in ministromach Sanderus de schismate Rosseus and by infamous libels disgracing the Ministerie they haue giuen aduantage to the enemie and brought religion into contempt 24 They are but made instruments by some persons to worke the spoile of the Church whereof they are like to haue small part 25 In all places where this discipline is setled they haue ouerthrowen the authoritie of the Magistrate the state of the Church and vniuersities 26 Nay by diuers strange positions they goe about to bring in diuers heresies 27 They haue in their lewde 1 In their new Communion booke paraphrase vpon the Creede taken out two Articles out of the Creede viz. that of Christes buriall and of his descending into hell and haue added a new Article of their discipline 28 They affirme that hatred as it is an attribute in God 2 Fenner Theolog lib. 1. is the essence of God and teach very badly of the essence and persons 29 Penrie holdeth that Christ Iesus is the worde preached 30 They doe generally beleeue that the worde read is but a dead letter and no ordinarie meanes to engender faith which is the opinion of the 3 Bozius in libr. de signis ecclesiae papistes 31 Martin doeth scoffe at the holy virgine Saint Mary and Saint Peter and calleth them Sir Peter and Sir Mary in scorne and maketh a scoffe both at gouernement and religion 32 In leauing the studie of fathers and ancient writers and schoole learning all the puritans are become verbal diuines without soundmatter 33 To prooue their deuises they haue offered great violence to the holy scriptures expounding them contrary both to ancient fathers and histories and common reason as namely their common places alledged out of the 18. of Matthew 1. Timothie 5. Romains 12.1 Corinthians 12. Ephesians 4. vpon the false interpretation of nine or ten places all their deuises doe stand 34 Themselues doe not agree either in the exposition of these places or in their rules concerning the presbyterie 35 Some interprete the wordes If thy brother offend against thee of priuate offences others of publike offences others of both 36 The Elders that are mentioned in the 14 of the Actes some expound Ministers of the word others churchaldermen 37 The wordes Dic Ecclesiae some expound of the Consistorie others of the Synode others of the conferences 38 Themselues confesse that they are not resolued in many pointes I haue set downe otherwhere infinite matters which they can neuer resolue 39 Themselues doe many wayes contrary to their discipline they condemne the reading of Apocrypha in the Church yet doe they allowe verball sermons wherein often times fall out strange doctrines and many vncharitable discourses which no man is so sencelesse I thinke as to preferre before the Apocryphall scriptures that are read in the Church They interprete Caluins Catechisme and other such like bookes which they cannot shewe to be canonicall 40 They teach that he that beareth not the Church is to be accounted a heathen and publican yet doe they not so accept him when the Synode iudgeth contrarie to the Consistorie 41 They say that euery Church hath equall right yet the parishes about Geneua haue no Consistories nor doctors nor execution of discipline but depend vpon them of the citie of Geneua 42 They say no man may enter the ministerie without lawfull calling yet haue Th. C. and Wat. Tr. and diuers of this sort here taken vpon them the ministerie without lawfull calling and intruded into others charges to the great disturbance of Gods Church 43 In Bishops and other ministers of this Church they condemne the mingling of matters ciuill and ecclesiasticall and account the same vnlawful yet doe none meddle with matters of state more then this faction yea diuers of them doe deale in base trades 44 Here they condemne ciuil honours in ecclesiastical persons yet is Beza one of the chiefe men both for reuenues and honor in the kingdome of Geneua and our puritanes receiue his letters like Apolloes Oracles 45 At Geneua and in all this newe gouernement lay men intrude into church gouernment and are made aldermen and Deacons 46 They condemne the authoritie of Bishops here yet doe they giue their consistories twise so large authoritie for here Bishops can doe nothing but according to lawe there as oft as it shall please the Consistorie without lawe or colour they may turne out all their Ministers and pastors to seeke pasture other where 47 Here they teach that Doctors and pastors are distinct officers yet at Geneua Beza is both pastor and doctor and others haue susteined both offices 48 All of them doe holde Fruitefull sermon that widowes and deacons are members of Christes bodie as they sticke not to auowe and yet in no churches haue they widowes nor ecclesiasticall deacons but onely certeine counterfet almesgatherers that are good for nothing but to stand with a boxe at the Church doore wherein the liuing and hope of many poore pastors in diuers places consisteth 49 In the disciplinarian kingdome the Ministers commonly liue in extreme contempt and pouertie so that fewe of worth take on them the calling which if order be not taken will be the ruine of religion 50 By the ordinances of Geneua onely the Ministers life in their visitations is looked vnto and no article set downe for enquirie of others conuersation so that it appeareth that this discipline is nothing but a deuise for the abasing and ouerthrowe and treading under feete of the Ministerie of the Gospell 51 There is no meanes giuen to the ministers to mainteine themselues much lesse their wiues and children awake therefore you my masters of the Church your enemies seeke your ruine 52 All matters wherein is breach of charitie the Consistories do take vpon them to order and to moderate rigorous dealing in lawe this toucheth your freehold my masters that studie the cōmon lawes 53 They take on them to moderate likewise all rigorous dealing in priuate contractes which concerneth all marchants and men of trade verie neerely 54 They take vpon them to apoint what rewardes shall be giuen to learning and how long they shall enioy them and yet you my masters of the Vniuersitie doe fauour these conceites which are the ruine of your selues and your succession 55 They giue the managing of Church goods into the hands of men of occupation and make the Ministers to depend on their deuotion a matter not to encourage but to discourage
frameth an articulat infamous libell A second fault it is that such leude and shamefull practises are notwithstanding sayd to be drawen by a fauourer of reformation as if there were no difference betwixt slandering and reforming A third fault hee committeth in affirming these questions to be annexed by the Printer But the greatest fault is that such shamefull libels are commonly solde and the authors passed ouer without punishment Quaere first whether Iustice Wray did not affirme Putcase Quaest 1. that men should incurre no penaltie for opinions which they helde doubtingly and whether a man may not without breach of lawe make Quaerees and doubtes whether I may not be a Putcase I haue enquired of those Answere that were present at the time when these wordes are pretended to bee spoken and they doe assure me that hee neuer vttered any such words which I haue no reason to doubt of for it is not probable that so reuerend and learned a Iudge shoulde mayntaine or deliuer so strange an assertion for in matters fundamentall of faith to doubt is haeresie as all diuines doe agree And in externall matters the Apostle saith that whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne And who woulde not detest him that would make a doubt whether these disciplinarians be impious and flagitious fellowes that affirme it to be lawfull to make doubts and questions in those cases The very Paganes were farre more reasonable then this impious Putcase For the Athenians banished 1 Cie de natur Deor. Protagoras for doubting whether there were a God or no. As for matters of state I doubt not but whosoeuer shall doubt and make a question and not categorically affirme that her Maiestie hath right to her crowne and is supreme Gouernour within her dominions in all causes and ouer all persons is a ranke traytor Let therefore Pierce Putcase looke to it a little better and cleare himselfe of doubting and questioning least hee bee taken for a traytor out of doubt To come to the matter in question it is also euident that whosoeuer doth make questions to the diffamation eyther of the gouernment or gouernours or of priuate persons liuing in obedience of lawes he is to be punished as a libeller And therfore I would wish the man to shut vp himselfe in a case to take heed that he be not taken abroad For he wil be in a very bad case for his libelling and putting of cases if euer his reuelling against her Maiestie her ecclesiasticall lawes her officers and many other good men shal come in scanning Quaere Putcase Quaest 2. whether the forme of prayers administratiō of sacramēts attyre of ministers other ceremonies in England do more agree to the Apostolicall and primitiue order or to the vse of the Romish church whether popish orders be more seemely thē the Apostolike The questioner supposeth that I will answere that Answere which maketh for his purpose not doubting but to cut vs downe with the next blow But in vaine doth he feed himself with his owne conceit For I answere and will shewe that our liturgie and ceremonies agree neerer to the liturgie and ceremonies of the primitiue Church then to the popish orders And that is apparent first in quality for that wee haue purged out all idolatrie superstition false doctrine in which the papists do most differ from the ancient Church Secondly in forme For as the Iewes had readings of the law certaine hymnes and prayers interposed so no doubt the Apostles kept the reading of scriptures with prayers interposed which forme we keepe the papists keepe not The papists reade no scriptures and haue other formes of prayers Thirdly in the language for as in anciēt time so now we vse our mother tōgue Nay further we come neerer in our formes to the primitiue church then the consistorial orders For they haue no set reading of scrptures nor forme of liturgie as they had in the times of the first fathers and are so vnlike them that they haue abolished al the orders of the ancient Church They haue no set praiers but leaue al to the discretion of their speaker as they cal him who cōceiueth prayers either so confused that they are not vnderstood or so vncharitable that a true Christian may not say Amen Contrariwise ancient counsels decreed that no praiers should bee said in the church but such as first should by cōmon authority be allowed And albeit apparel is a matter indifferent yet in publike liturgie wee come neerer to the Apostolike Church whereas the puritanes haue abolished al Apostolike orders as they haue abolished al Apostolike gouernement To the last part of the question whether popish ceremonies bee more decent then Apostolicall I answere that where they are contrarie there the Apostolike is more decent But I denie that eyther the newe consistoriall gouernement or the ceremonies by the same appointed are Apostolicall or that our ceremonies are papisticall Nay I say that their newe orders are not Apostolicall but fantasticall and that our gouernement is Apostolicall neyther shall they euer be able to prooue the contrary Quaere Putcase Quaest 3. whether our rites and ceremonies doe not giue offence to the papists and whether indifferent things causing offence ought not by Pauls doctrine to be remooued out of the Church Whether they giue offence to the papistes or no Answere wee are not to respect nor to omit ancient and Apostolike orders to please them To good men the vse of our ceremonies cannot giue iust offence Nay rather the confusion of the newe gouernment and absurditie in the newe liturgie giueth offence for it confirmeth the papists in their opinion and offendeth all that are comming forward to ioyne with vs. For they see not how that can be the Church that refuseth all ancient gouernement and ceremonies and is nothing but a bundell of nouelties And therefore in vaine is the latter part of the question propounded whether matters that giue offence be by S. Pauls doctrine to be remooued for wee denie that our ceremonies doe giue offence Quaere Putcase Quaest 4. whether the square cappe surplesse c. condemned in generall by the Queenes Iniunctions bishops articles and doctrine of England and other Churches misliked by Bullinger Alasco Bucer Pilkington Bale and other learned men be decent and comely for a preacher and being vncomely whether they should not be abolished out of the Church First it is denied Answere that the attyre of ministers in England now is condemned by the Queenes iniunctions or bishops articles or doctrine of England A shamelesse man was he that affirmed it so impudently and so to bee credited accordingly for the contrary is euident both by doctrine of the Church and law of the realme And neuer shall this bold bayardlike Putcase prooue them either to be monumentes of poperie or defiled with idolatrie let him begin when he wil. What other Churches mislike in themselues we do not
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
the high commission especially seeing that the high commission dealeth only by authority from the prince and is limitted with lawes and is subiect to the princes commaundement and dealeth onely in extraordinary cognitions and may bee reuoked and cassed as the prince shall thinke meete And where onely Ecclesiasticall persons meddle with the censures whereas contrariwise the imperious church-aldermen clayme no commission from the prince nay they challenge the power and vicarage of Christ Iesus and superioritie ouer all princes and deale in small and great causes yea clownes and doltes dispute of relgion and throw out excommunications and rule all without lawe or reason by the onely instinct of their vncleane spirit or rather changeable fancie and therefore the Remonstrance sayth well that it is a lynsey wolsey and motley discipline patched together by men of motley ierkins consisting of contrary pieces iumbling both Church and common wealth together while ministers are sent abroad to beg for their liuing and artificers and clownes rule like Lordes in the Consistorie prescribing Lawes to princes so that if the Libeller desire this goodly gallimafrey of discipline hee is more fitte to weare a motley cote with an addition of haukes belles then to gouerne a Church or any part of the common wealth Quaere Put-case Quest 43. if the sole gouernment of a bishop in a diocesse be sufficiēt and most agreeable to Gods worde why is there an ecclesiasticall commission standing of many persons ciuill and Ecclesiasticall or if an Ecclesiasticall commission bee needefull in a Realme why not in a Prouince If in a Prouince why not in a Diocesse If in a Diocesse why not in a Deanrie If in a Deanerie why not in a Parish Lastly why might there not without absurditie and breache of true vniformitie bee planted in some places already capable a Consistorie or Commission of Elders though the like cannot bee accomplished in all seeing there bee newe Ecclesiasticall Commissions erected Deanes and Chapters broken musicke and Organs in some places not in other To these three questions Answere which are the very crisis of the Put case dreaming furie I answere first that seeing the prince by the lawes of God is soueraine gouernour in all causes within her dominions that beside the ordinary iurisdiction of Bishops within their seuerall Diocesse it is very requisite that there should bee a superiour authoritie to assist them and to strengthen them and to supply that which is wanting and in case they doe not their dueties to correct them secondly that as the Prince is one so there ought to bee but one supreme authoritie although by that authoritie her Maiestie may appoynt diuers Commissioners and yet nothing commeth thereby to the Eldership that claymeth authoritie not from the prince but from God and would altogether breake the vnion of her gouernement while euery consistorie would rule the congregation vnder it as best pleaseth my lords the church aldermen As for the gradation of the libeller if hee had vnderstoode any logicke he might haue learned that no kind of argument is more faultie by this reason a man might thus conclude against the libeller that if he will libell against authoritie hee will not spare the counsell if they withstande him if not the counsell neither will he spare the prince if hee contemne all humane lawes he will not greatly esteeme Gods lawes if hee care not for Gods lawe then will he not in the ende care for God himselfe likewise if the Sanedrin was at Ierusalem then in other cities if in cities then in boroughs so in villages and if the consistory be required in parishes then in villages if in villages then in hamlets if in hamlets then in houses if in houses then in the kitchin where the cooke is chiefe moderator which followe as well as his reasons many doe thinke that one high commission is inough too much for al England what then woulde they thinke if they should see in euery parish high commissioners yea what if there were but such cōmissioners as the aldermen of the cōsistonie be that claime a most absolute high commission from God planted in euery parish it would then be time to runne into some other countrey à remotis for it would bee hard liuing in England thirdly I say that there is no place in England capable of the aldermanshippe but such as is very capable of faction and disloyalty and that his reason drawen from organs and broken musicke is very weake for albeit there is broken musicke in some places and not in other yet can there be no elderships in any place for if any should bee placed the musicke of that companie compared with other places woulde sound like a paire of broken organes not onely like broken musicke and that gouernment would breake both Church and common wealth in pieces bring all out of tune they haue done it already in places where they be setled and were vnknowen to all antiquitie and therefore what reason haue wee to make triall of that which is like to prooue so dangerous Thus you haue heard all those contumelious cases questions and demands which this railing Putcase in his malicious fury hath thought good to propound not only to disgrace hurt the ecclesiastical state but also to ouerthrow law and gouernment if the course be lawful and honest who may not as well propound questions to the dishonor of any state or noble personage in the land there is no man of so rare merite nor so honorable but might if this course were suffered bee brought into enuie hatred and if I shoulde follow him in this course good Lord what shamefull and ridiculous matters do the publike and priuate actions of these factious persons offer to mens view al which albeit they deserue to heare yet it is not for me to speake neither do graue men desire to know I will only for requitall frame certaine interrogatories concerning the cause those persons which are principal agents in this cause that seeing how open they lye themselues they may hereafter deale more modestly with others if they follow this course I doe assure them that for euery one they haue propounded to vs there will be by some or other twentie propounded to them in the meane while let them content themselues with these and blame not me for I doe but answere and followe them seeing they haue begunne to come into this kind of field they must haue patience to stand to the hazard of warres if they would haue dealt ciuilly with me they should not haue ouercome me in curtesie CERTAINE QVESTIONS PROPOVNDED to the Putcase and his adherents wherein diuerse well affected to the state desire to be resolued QVaere whether hee that maketh doubt of the principles of our Christian faith bee not by the opinion of the ancient fathers an haeretike and whether the lawes do not condemne him for a traytor that maketh doubt of her Maiesties right to the
case the synode should determine that he should pay some part whether godly brethren or prophane men should first be payd or else for auoyding of controuersie none at all 91 Quaere of Iohn Penry whether if Moses lawes haue such continuance as they holde in this newe kingdome a bastard that is excluded out of the sanctuarie may notwithstanding intrude without calling into the ministery 92 Quaere of those that make braggs of T. Cartw. great worke against the Rhemists whether there be not many points therein conteined contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this church and all good Diuinitie and why if all bee cleare with him he dare not suffer the same to abide the censures of lerned men and lastly why any should wonder that such thinges should not bee published considering what dangerous effectes doe followe printing of hereticall and schismaticall bookes 93 Quaere if a certaine consistoriall president at Middleburg when a marchant did pursue a certaine seruant of his in lawe for wasting his goods did not threaten to excommunicate him if hee would not desist his pursute and let fall his action and whether the consistory may serue for a sanctuanie for bad men and bankruptes if they professe reformation and whether this maner of discipline dissolue not ciuill contractes and hinder iustice 94 Quaere whether that the Church-aldermen doe not sometimes meddle in domesticall matters betwixt man and wife and hinder the fathers correction of his seruantes or children whether this be not a way to dissolue the bonds of nature that giueth authoritie in this case and whether the discipline that vseth this practise bee not vnciuill and vnnaturall To conclude Quaere if the Put-case had not done his clyents and their cause more good by silence then by this weake and calumnious speaking It were an easie matter to frame infinite Questions of like sort but these may suffice to let the Libeller see his owne folie in charging others when himselfe and his fellowes lye so open besides that I would not weary thee nor disfurnish my selfe of new matter against the next encounter let him article and play the Put-case as oft as hee will hee must not thinke hee shall walke vp and downe without answere or controulment in the meane while Pag. 83. because he appealeth to iudges and craueth iustice to them wee are also content to submit our cause and doe also instantly craue iustice iudge we beseech you all to whom the execution of iustice is committed whether it bee fitting that such as declame against the ancient gouernment of the Church euer knowen to bee in the Church since Christes time against the authority and preheminence of her Maiestie against the lawes of the realme against the proceedings of Iudges and take on them to controll and reuerse the sentences of iudges and seeke the trouble of the realme and maintenance of leud factions destitute of all ground and speake for a gouernement neuer heard of but of late nor that hath confirmation of scriptures or fathers iudge I say whether such intollerable pride arrogancie and disloyalty and those that defend these trecherous dealings and opinions in bookes printed in corners and without names are longer to bee suffered the inconueniences that may growe of these courses I neede not to declare vnto you that are men of iudgement and experience the weakenesse of their cause I haue sufficiently declared Why shoulde you doubt to doe iustice in so cleare a cause and against such factious persons For their doings haue no defence nor their doctrine support beside the bare opinions of Caluin Beza their followers they haue not so much as any groūd of reason no scripture no father no history no law nor example of good gouernmēt nay they haue both scriptures fathers histories lawe and reason against them most euidently and clearely and therfore I say againe let iustice be done if any of the ecclesiastical state haue done against law let them bee punished let not religion and learning suffer for the sinnes of particulars the innocent let them not be disgraced for others offences nor let malice and faction and sacriledge preuayle against lawe and gouernement that which is now their case may be likewise yours if you respect not the cause of men yet consider that it is the cause of religion learning and gouernment and so proceed as you may declare your selues to be men carefull of the aduancement of religion and learning and the maintenance of a peaceable gouernment and God so belsse you as you shew your selues studious of religion learning peace and iustice ⧠An Aduertisement to the Reader WHereas in the former discourse somewhat hath bene said in answere of the Petitioners lewd calumniations concerning the triall of Iohn Vdal and the iudgement not long since pronounced against him which he pretendeth to be disorderlie and iniurious it may be that such as list to cauill at such things as they mislike will take exceptions against the same as if I meant to abase the high authoritie of Iudges or make the proceedings of the highest courtes of Iustice an argument for the rude populasse to dispute of or to subiect the ordinarie trials of law to the controlment or at least canuases of priuate persons Least any should either in this behalfe except against me or enter into any such conceit of me I thought good expresly here to aduertise thee that both my words and meaning are contrary Concerning matters of common Iustice betwixt partie and partie I know that no iudgement is reuersed but by writ of errour and that in matters concerning the Crowne the verdicts of Iurors and sentences of Iudges for the Queene are finall and that the lawe doeth intend that Iudges and Iurors will proceede with that indifferencie and equitie that it will not haue their doings controlled nor examined by priuate persons Neither is it any part of my meaning to call any law in question or controll the doings of so honourable persons as in that fact sate Iudges Nay this is the thing which I doe so much reprehend in the Petitioner and his faction that most saucilie and arrogantly they take vpon them to examine the doings of Princes the actes of Parliament the sentences of Iudges the verdicts of Iuries and all recordes of Iustice Neither is there any companion among them so base but he taketh to himselfe libertie to censure and controll Princes Parliaments Iudges Lawes yea whatsoeuer and whomsoeuer Among others the author of the Petition hath behaued himselfe as presumptuouslie and proudly as the best Ignorance belike maketh him bolde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for that it is ioyned with impudencie What through presumption and what through impudencie he hath taken vpon him contrary to the Iurors verdict and Iudges sentence to prooue that Vdall offended not against that statute of 23. Eliz. cap. 2. whereupon he was condemned This notorious impudencie and presumption I thought good to lay open before mens
Church and schooles are contemned I would I might not say discouraged they are made markes for licentious youthes armed with malice to shoote their boltes against the lawes are not onely contemned but most boldly oppugned yea with such confidencie that law is now accounted disorder and faction and tumult termed 2 Petition to her Maiestie reformation and libellers in euill time called reformers what resteth for them to worke but that al wise and learned men being put from gouernment the seely sots which these call elders and certaine famous authors of popular faction should be placed in the highest offices or else that lawes being not executed or Iudges crossed in executing of iustice the contumacious might liue as they list wherein they seeke nothing but that eyther the forreyne enemie may oppresse vs or els inward tumult and disorder consume vs. But I doubt not but her Maiestie and all those that beare office vnder her will take speedie order that it is not alreadie taken many do wonder some doe complayne but the clemencie of her Maiesties times and her benigne nature doth afford vs answere she will not haue any complaine that in this case any are punished but such as are obstinate heynous and notorious disturbers of the state because they were not at the first knowen for such shee would not haue them punished for such besides this the height of the stile and the loude bragges they made of their discipline made many beleeue they did it eyther of simplicitie or zeale or error few suspected the greedines of some and malice and ambition of others their notorious hypocrisie could not of long time be discouered but now their leudnes is apparent and their false visage is dismasked let them therefore beware that they abuse not the clemencie of the times or hope for continuance of vndeserued fauour The vanitie of their bragges and weakenesse of their cause is euident to all that are not eyther wilfully blinded or naturally ignorant All the demonstrations of their discipline are discifred and stand confuted they doe not so much as goe about to defend them their whole plots of false discipline lye razed they cannot say a word for them in this late petition wherein they had occasion to shewe their skill they haue not so much as answered one argument brought by vs against them The defence of Bezamade for his Aldermen most weake and simple as in a desperate cause they haue intreated Beza to say somewhat wherein we may see that their forces are spent to the last man yea so spent that they haue no hope of recouerie for what saith he good man hee telleth vs a long tale of his Geneuian deuises hut neyther doth hee answere our arguments nor bringeth scripture fathers or reason for his cause vnlesse wee beleeue him on his bare word the controuersie is at an end call you this answering this is rather the playne ouerthrowe of his cause for while hee went about to answere he hath confirmed our cause saying nothing either for himselfe or against vs but what he in his olde age dreameth where was T.C. that valiant champion of discipline all this while where was W. Tr. W. Ch. D. Sp. could not one of them speake for their cause but they must send to Geneua for a speaker it is too great and notable a confession of the weakenesse of their cause As for him or that I mistake not them that made the petition lately printed and pretended to be presented to her Maiestie on the behalfe of the Puritans they doe not deserue the name of speakers vnlesse it be among Puritans where euery one that can prate is sayde to speake For what say they for their cause their onely reason is because Caluin Beza Daneus Carpentier Golart Perot Tauergues Pollan Sneccan and a number of other authors of whose names and gestes we should neuer haue heard if these mē had not in this cause brought their names to light doe speake somewhat for their consistorie that therefore we are to like of it A goodly reason yet such a one as I thinke they will not admitte against their discipline For albeit Master R. M.B.M.G. M.A. M.H. M.D. M.W. and infinite other learned and good preachers among vs yea such as one of them is to be vaed against many of these ignorant and presumptuous disciplinarians do like of the present gouernment yet are they not therwith satisfied nay albeit all the ancient Fathers and acts of Counsels do like of the auctoritie gouernment of Bishops yet are these fellowes stil contending against it That the same was established by most learned and godly men that in Q. Maries time gaue their liues for the testimonie of the trueth they litle weigh nay they neither care for them nor their authoritie With what face then can they alledge Golart Pollan Sneccan and a number of birdes of like feather and men neither wise nor learned nor that haue ground of antiquitie or reason seeing they renounce not onely the authoritie of our men more learned then they but of our Martyrs more holy men then they yea and all the writings of the Fathers and actes of Counsels speaking of the authoritie and state of Bishops and such a gouernment as we haue In times past they were wont to tell vs of certaine lawes established by God himselfe and made vante that they would proue their discipline out of Gods word Why then are they now mute why are not these lawes and this worde brought forth why are they silent in bringing forth these mightie reasons when all is come to all must we rest on Golart Pollan Tauergues and Sneccans three or foure odde compagnions idle conceits there can nothing be deuised more absurd nor sencelesse Therefore hauing nothing to say in defence of their cause now in a desperate rage they begin to reuell not onely at Bishops but also at Lawes and Iudges and the ordinarie tryals of this Realme The drift of the petition is to shew that Iohn Vdall was wrongfully condemned they insinuate therein that the Iudges were either corrupted or blinded and that the euidence was wrested They say in plaine tearmes that Iudges haue no skill to deale with such fellowes as Iohn Vdall another kinde of man percase then he is taken to be Is hee trowe you any of Hackets or Coppingers consortes to bring Bishops into hatred they haue after their petition collected diuers Articles and by them and by certaine calumnious interrogatories haue gone about to bring them in disgrace with the multitude that if they cannot haue their desire of their celestiall consistorie they may be yet reuenged of such as they take to be the hinderers of their purposes Whose malice to encounter as before I haue answered their cauils against the ecclesiasticall gouernment of our Church to the vtter disgrace of the Consistorie so now hauing other occasions to print a discourse against Bellarmine and forreine aduersaries of our Church I haue thought good to