other sleights besides these that you haue already mencioned The Germaine The 9. semblance YEs b Sleidan in Câ—m 5. there was one Thomas Muncer a Preacher who as Sleidan and other Germaine-writers reporte did greately labour both by his conferences in priuate by his Sermons in publike to draw the common people from their liking of the present estate The Englishman It hath likewise beene the practise of our factious preachers in their verball Sermons to speake against the statâ— ecclesiasticall the book of common prayer the rites ceremonies of the Church of England For the proofe heereof I referre you to the very confession of their owne lippes On Tuesday saith c Anno 1586. one of their owne side T. C. kept Maister Fens Lecture the Text Psalme 122 4. Vnto the end taking thornes as Tâ—emelius doth and vrging the discipline the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause that some friendes for sooke our Church And as this is the practise of some of our factious Ministers in England so is it also the practise of the same faction in Scotland Yea d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 38. 39. they snapper out grosselye with the truth of their intentions informing the people that all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the libertye of the Church and can neuer patientlye beare the yoake of Christ with such sound Doctrine fed they their flockes The Germaine The 10. SeÌ„blance THe Anabaptists did not content themselues therewithal but to the end they might doe yâ— more harme they published factious Bookes to the view of the world as may bee gathered by this speech of Maister Zuinglius to the Magistrates in his time a Zuinglius de Baptism Si hoc cuiuis hominum impune facere licebit vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imo resistente etiam vniuersatotius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quam fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it bee lawfull for euery man to publish abroad among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne head before he hath consulted with the Church nay against the authoritie of the whole Church in short time we shall see more errours in the Church then there be faithful men and Christians And in an other place Si hoc permittamus vt capitosus quisque male-feriatus homo c. If we suffer euery headie braineles fellow so soone as he hath conceiued any new thing in his minde to publish it abroad gather disciples and make a new sect in short time we shall haue so many sects factions that Christ which scarse with a great paine and labour is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many parts The Englishman Neyther did our Puritanes therewithall content themselues but that their poyson might ranckle the farther to the disturbance perrill both of the Church common-wealth they haue published a great number of Bookes which are as fit for the fire as the Bookes of curious Artes Act. 19. Yea and they haue also exhorted the common-people to peruse these their sedicious Pamphlets I pray you say they b In a Booke of theirs entituled the state of the church of England c. Page 10. when you come to London see if you can get these bookes The Ecclesiastical Discipline A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The Counterpoyson A Seâ—mon on the 12. to the Romans and Maâ—ster Cartwights last reply some of which bookes haue been extant this dozen yeares and yet are not them answered and you shall there finde that the gouernment of the Church is contrary to the word of God But not to speake onely of their Bookes in gâ—nerall lâ—t vs take a view of the Contents thereof in particular The Germaine Our Sectaries did stuffe their bookes with inuectiues and out-cries both against the Magistracie and the Ministerie TO begin with the Magistracie they taught as Maister The 11. seÌ„blance a Bulling aduers Anabap. Fol. 19. Bullinger also recordeth that the Ciâ—il Magistrate hath no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and that hee ought not to meddle in causes of Religion and Faith The Englishman Our Sectaries come not farre behinde them heerein as appeareth by these their speeâ—hes b T. C. lib. 1. Page 192 for the making of orders and ceremonies in the Church saith T. C. they doe where there is a constituted ordered Church pertaine vnto the Ministers of the church and to the Ecclesiasticall gouernours and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuill Lawes and Lawes for the common-wealth so the ciuill Magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies partaining to the Church c T. C lib 2 Page 1â—5 And againe No ciuil Magistrates in councels or assemblies for Church-matters can eyther be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or dâ—tâ—rminer d Admon 2 No ciuil Magistrate say the admonitors hath such authoritie as that without his consent it should not be lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to make any church-order or ceremonie e Admon 1 And againe To these three ioyntlie that is the Ministers Seniors and Dâ—acons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed By this you may see that our Sectaries doe shake hands both with the Anabaptists the Papists But albeit these three contrary factions haue vnited ioyned themselues together and doe al ioyntly oppugne the Princes authoritie in causes â—cclesiasticall yet the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures the judgement of the auncient Fathâ—rs the decisions of auncient Counsels and the practiâ—e of Christian Princes in the pâ—imatiue Church are able to seuer and dis-ioyne all their forces To beginne with the Scriptures they giue sufficient warrant to ciuill Gouernours to ordaine Lawes in Ecclesiastical causes and doe expressely teach that a 2. Reg 12 4 2 Chro. 19. 4. Ibidâ—m 30 1 34. 3. Iehosaphat Hezekias and Iosias did make Lawes for the recalling excercising of the Seruice of God As for the Fathers they holde it to bee an Oracle for truth that b Aug. Epi. 48 Kinges doe serue Christ in making lawes for Christ Yea c Aug. Epi. 50 Rex aliter seruit Domino saith Saint Augustine quia homo est aliter quia etiam Rex est Quia homo est ei seruit viuendo fideliter quia vero Rex est seruit leges iust a praecipientes contraria prohibentes conuenienti vigore sanciendo A King serueth the Lord one way as he is a man and an other way as he is a King As hee is a man he serueth him by liuing faithfully As he is a King he serueth him by making lawes with conuenient vigor to coÌ„maunde that which is right and forbid the contary But not to insist onely vpon Saint Augustins iudgement The d Vide Sozomen lib. 1. cap 17. Bishops that came to the counsell of Nice gaue to the Emperour
the children themselues being once of discretion may with their owne mouth and with their owne consent openly before the Church confirme the same and also promise that by the Grace of God they will euermore endeuour themselues faithfully to obserue such thinges as they by their owne confession haue assented vnto Againe they say that we c Admon page 195. make the maried maâ— to make an Idoll of his wife saying with my body I thee worship when as our meaning onely is that the man should as the Apostle biddeth him d 1. Peter 3. 7. giue honour vnto the woman as vnto the weaker vessell To conclude this construing of things in the worst part was a thing very common at the late conference as appeareth by these his Maiesties words e See the Proclamation for the authoriz We thought meetâ— with the consent of the Bishops and other learned mâ—n there present that some small thinges might rather bee explained then changed not that the same â—ight not verie well haue beene borne with by men who would haue made reasonable construction of them c. But to proceede to some other matters what other opinions held your Anababtists The Germaine The 61. SeÌ„blance VVHy do you thus wearyme with relating their opinions Maister d Bullinger fol. 18. Bullinger telleth you that there was no stay in them but that daily they inuented new opinions and did runne from errour to errour The Englishman How new-fangle likewise our Nouellists are it appeareth by their often correcting altering and amending of their plat-forme of Discipline But what need I produce any arguments to proue this T. C. and his adherents in one of their examinations in the Starre-chamber did confesse and auouch it vpon their oathes e See the Survey of preteÌ„ded holy discipline that there were then after many meetings which they had some things in their draught of discipline wherein they were not resolued And I verily perswade my selfe that if our obstinate Ministers were pressed vpon their oathes they would notwithstanding all their ploddings together acknowledge that they are not resolued in all points what they would haue Yea this their affectation of noueltie was such as that it moued the Kings Maiestie to giue this admonition to all his Subiects f See the proclamation before alleadged We do admonish all men that hereafter they shall not expect nor attempt any further alteration in the common and publique forme of Gods seruice from this which is now established for that neither will wee giue way to any to presume that our iudgement hauing determined in a matter of this waight shall be swayed to alteration by the friuolous suggestions of any light spirits neyther are we ignorant of the inconueniences that doe arise in gouernment by admitting innouation in things once setled by mature deliberation and how necessarie it is to vse constancie in the vpholding of the publike determinations of States for that such is the vnquietnes and vnstedfastnes of some dispositions affecting euerie yere new formes of things as if they should be followed in their inconstancy would make all actions of states ridiculous and contemptible c. And thus you see how that our Sectaries doe affect new formes of thinges inuent new opinions runne from error to error as your Anabaptists did But what doe you coniecture to be the cause that these your Sectaries did thus runne from one new opinion to an other were not of a more stayed settled iudgement The Germaine The 62. seÌ„blance TRuely it was as I coniecture because they contemned disdained the old fathers of the church and thought it the loosing of good houres to peruse their writings The Englishman It greeueth me to see how lightly our Sectaries also esteeme of the classicall principal Doctours of the church next the Apostles of Christ and their next succeeders whome they ought to a Ego illos â—â—â—eror taâ—â—â— nominibus reuerence to doe a kinde of homage to their very names and to acknowledge that of them all which was said of b Sencea lib. 8. Epist 65 two of theÌ„ viz that they are euen the hammers of Hereticks the eyes of the world The Germaine Why how doe they account of these Starres and Ornaments of learning The Englishman How lightlye they account of them the verye wordeâ— of T. C. doe make proofe who when he was vrged with the testimonies of Ignatius TertulliaÌ„ CypriaÌ„ Ierome Augustine â—nd others cryed out that c T. C. lib. 1 pag. 154 truth was measured by the crooked yard of time Yea he tearmeth the seeking into the Fathers writings d T. C. lib. 1 page 114 araking in Ditches The Germaine And doe they make the same reckoning too of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman The 63. seÌ„blance YEs the Councell of Nice of Neosesarea of Gangren and of Orleance being quoted to proue the authoritie of the Church in thinges indifferent T. C. complained T. C. Lib 1 pag. 29. 32 that he was pestered with such a kinde of authoritie insteed of Isai Ieremie S. Paul and S. Peter The Germaine It is likely that they esteemed very lightly of the writings of heatheÌ„ writers seeing that they made so small recconing of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman True did your Sectaries make any greater account of them The Germaine Ours no there was one Iohn Mathew their principal prophet that commaunded as Sleidan testifieth euery Sleidan lib 10 one of his followers to bring all his bookes whatsoeuer sauing the Bible to be publiquely burned which was accordingly performed The Englishman Belike then they were of opinion that all Gentile learning should be abandoned from the lips of Christians The Germaine The 64. seÌ„blance YEs and especially from the lips of Preachers The Englishman Saint Augustine writing against Petilian telleth vs Aug lib 3. contra Petilian cap. 16. that the said Petilian his aduersatie did accuse him for a Lâ—giâ—ian and did bring Logicke it selfe to her try all before the people as the mistresse of forgery and lying and because he shewed some Rhethorike did note him by the name of Tertullus the Orator and charged him with the damnable wit of Carneades the Academicke Your Anabaptists I see were of Petilian his humor The Germaine True and are not your Sectaries so too The Englishman Yes My heart saith one of them in a certaine Schismatical a Intittled the State of the church of England pag 25 Booke that is very rife amongst our Puritans waxeth colde my flesh trembleth to heare you say that a Preacher should confirme his matter out of the Fathers and humaine writers doth preaching consist in quoting of Doctors alleadging of Poets Philosophers In what part of his commission hath a Minister warrant so to doe The Germaine In what part doth not S. Paul himself aledge b Act 17. 28 Aratus c 1 cor 15 33 Menander
on the Popes side in this matter His wordes are these c lib. 2. page 48. The Christian Soueraigne ought not to be called the hoad vnder Christ of the particular and visible Churches within his Dominions The Puritane But doe any of our writers spoy le the Ciuil Magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiastical matters as the Papists doe The Protestant Yes the Admonitors say in plaine tearmes that d Admon page 126. to these three ioyntly that is the Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed Now if the whole gouernment of the Church be to be committed to Ministers Seniors and Deacons what authoritie remaineth to the ciuill Magistrate in the gouernment of it The Puritane a These are the words of T. C. page 153. I answere in the name of the Authors of the Admonition that the Prince and ciuill Magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching his worship and touching all matters and orders of the Church be executed and duely obserued and to see that euery Ecclesiasticall person doe that office whereunto he is appointed and to punish those which faile in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders and ceremonies of the Church they do where there is a constâ—â—uted and ordered Church pertaine to the Ministers of the Church c. The Protestant I reply with the wordes of the late Reuerend Archbishop b In his defence of the answere to the Admon page 694. 695. 696. VVhat no more but to see them executed how differeth this from Papists The Papists giue to the Christian Magistrate in Ecclesiasticallmatters potestatem facts noniuris that is to see those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Cleargie shall make and to be as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters for doth not Saunders a popish writer say the same c saunders fol. 64. Although I do not deny saith he that the knowledge of a fact that belongeth to the Ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates and before the Ecclesiasticall cause be determined the King may vse his authoritie to this ende that there may bee some quiet place prepared where the Bishops shall consult and that the Bishops be called to the same place at a certaine day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining common peace may bee preserued euen among the Priestes themselues To conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the Priestes the King may punish him with the sword which hee carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishment which shalrefuse to obey the sentence of the Priestes a Muscul in locis com-tituâ— de magistratu Musculus also setteth out this Popish opinion touching the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall affaires very plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall Persons and wee call them Papists will not commit to the Magistrate any further authoritie in Religion then to bee the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall Lawes that the Ecclesiasticall polliciâ— may remaine immoouable wherefore they deny hin to haue authoritie in that hee is a Magistrate to make or to publish any Ecclesiasticall lawes because such thinges pertaine to those that do represent the Church whose decrees and constitutions must bee maintained and defended by the authoritie of the Magistrate But to leaue this resemblance what arguments doe the Popish Doctors vse against the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclefiasticall The Puritane b Sanders lib. 2 cap. 1. fol. 27. Saunders c Harding against the Apologie fol. 118. Harding and other of them do quote 2 Chron. 198. 11. which place maketh indeede fully against them for Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment both in thinges pertaining to the Church and in thinges pertaining to the Common-wealth but for better execution of them the one hee did commit to bee executed by Amaziah the Priest the other by Zebadiah a Ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Kings Maiestie being in all causes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall within these his Realmes and Dominions supreame gouernour committeth the hearing and iudging of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Reuerend Fathers of the Church and of Temporall matters to the Right honourable the Lord Chancelour and other Iudges Now had Iehosaphat nothing to doe with Church-matters because he made Amaziah Priest iudge in the same they may as well say that bee had nothing to doe in Temporall affaiers because he also appointed Zebadiah to heare and determine them The Protestant True and yet T. C. quoteth the selfe same place to prooue the selfe same thing a T. C. page 145. sect 1. looke saith he in the second Booke of the Cronicles in the 19. Chap. and in the 8. and 11. verses and you shall see that there were a number appointed for the matters of the LORD which were Priestes and Leuits and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affayers and for matters of the CommoÌ„-wealth c. The Puritane But in what other thinges agree we with the Papists The Protestant 1. The Papists would not haue the scriptures read in the Church to the people No more would your Puritane-popish writers for b In their viewe of po Pish abuses remaining fol. 2. they blush not to say that reading is no feeding but as euil as playing vpon a Stage and worse too 2. The Papists condemne our Book of common prayers set out by publique authoritie and the whole order of seruice so doe you 3. The papists say that our Sacraments are not rightly ministred so say you likewise as hath beene already shewed 4. The Papists say that we haue no right ministerie in England no Pastours no Bishops because they be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same doe you affirme as hath also beene shewed 5. The Papists auouch that we are not the true church no that wee haue not so much as the outward face and shew of the true Church the selfe same thing do your Puritan-popish teachers auouch in their first Admonition page 33. and in their second admonition page 6. The Puritane All this notwithstanding we come farre short of the Papists for Popery is as a â— Bâ—in his toyle for 2. legged Foxes chap. 3. one truely saith an hotch-potch and miserable mingle-mangle of all Sathans forgeries and diuelish heresies VVith Carpocratian Heretickes they set vp the image of Christ and other Saints with the Anthropomorphits they painâ— God the Father like an olde man with a gray beard with the Pelagian Heretickes they maintaine free will power to iustifie our selues and to fulfill the commandements with the Messalians they mumble their Mattens Pater nosters and seauen Psalmes by number vpon a payre of Beades with the Tatians Cataphryges Montanistes and Ebionites they seeke sanctification in eating and not eating in marrying
supreame authoritie in making ecclesiasticall orders committed the hearing and determining of their controuersies to his highnesse Christian Princes also haue euer exercised this their authoritie e Euseb lib. 4. â—e vita constant Constantine called himselfe a Bishoppe out of the Church and hee made lawes as f Euseb lib. 2. de vita Const Eusebius recordeth in thinges pertaining to holinesse towards God to the appointing of meete thinges for the Church of God Thâ—odosius his successor tooke the same course a Sozomen lib 7 12. Hee made moste seuere Lawes against all those that crossed the streame of Christian Religion Yea b Viâ—elib 1. 2 Legum Franciae all Princes and Potentates retained this their prerogatiue vntill the time of Charles the great and Lodouicus after him But by what other meanes did your lawlesse Anabaptists oppugne the Mgistrates authoritie The Germaine OVr Maisterlesse and lawlesse Anabaptists in processe The 12. seÌ„blance of time began to strike at the head of Gouernment in generall would haue framed a bodye of men like the body of Polyphemus without his eye or like the confused Chaos of olde time when height depth light and darkenes were mingled together for they attempted as c HemiÌ„gius et Bullinger aduersus Anaba Gastius de â—rroâ—ibuâ— catabaptist Hemingius Bullinger and Gastius doe recorde a paritie and equalitie of ciuill estates The Englishman The Lord who made two great lights the greater light to rule the day the lesser light to rule the night and who in the beginning established a superioritie in al creatures his will is that there should bee a Maisterie and Domion in euery order of men and that paritie in a Christian Common-wealth should moste carefullye bee shunned as being the Mother of Anarchy and confusion Neuerthelesse our Sectaries also as heereafter shall be shewed haue attempted paritie in the Ministrie and I feare that equalitie of Ministers would pull on equalitye in the other estates I feare I say and that not without cause for the chiefest amongst them saith flatlie in a book extant to the view of the world that d T. C. page 144. sect 1. The gouennment of the Common-wealth must bee framed according to the gouernment of the Church From which wordes I reason thus The gouernment of the Common-wealth must be framed according to the gouernment of the Church but there must be equalitie by T. C. his confession in the Church ergo But to returne to your Anabaptists did they thus seeke to ouerthrow your common-weale and state of gouernment The Germaine YEs and yet they in words protested that they endeuoured The 13. seÌ„blance to take no auâ—horitie froÌ„ the ciuil Magistrate as appeareth by these words of a Zuinglius in Ecclesiast Zuinglius Though they protest and by oath deme that they take any authoritie from Magistrates yet shortly after wee should haue seene it come to passe that they would haue beene disobedient to all lawes of Magistrates if once they had increased to that nuÌ„ber that they might haue trusted to their owne strength The Englishman Our Puritanes will make as solemne protestations as any men can doe by oath denye that which your Anabaptists did but I protest to vse his maiesties words b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 L. 2. page 42. that ye shal neuer finde with any highlaÌ„d or border theeues more lies and vile periuries then with these phanaticke spirits we may well say of them as Zuinglius said of your Anabaptists Though they protest and by oath denie that they take any authoritie from Magistrates yet shortly after should we haue seene it come to passe c. But I maruaile they would attempt to ouerthrow the Magistracie The Germaine IT is not to be maruelled at for they sought as Maister The 14. seÌ„blance Bullinger saith c Bulling aduers Anabapt â—ol 95. to bee free from all Lawes and to doe what they listed Their talke vttereth nothing else saith d Gastius de erroribus Catabapt Gastius but libertie in externall thinges Yea It was their opinion as one of your owne e Hâ—oker of ecclesiastical pollicie writers hath obserued that a Christian mans libertie is lost and the soule of man redeemed by Christ is iniuriously drawne into seruitude vnder the Yoake of humaine power if any lawe be nowâ— imposed besides â—he Gospell of Iesus Christ The Englishman Lawes made without contradiction to positine Lawes in Scriptures and receiued by a wholâ— Church are such as that they which liâ—e within the bosome of that same Church must not thinke it a matter indifferent eyther to yeild or not to yeild obedience For as Maister a Perkins in his treatise of conscience Perkins saiâ—h wholesome Lawes of men made of thinges indifferent so far foorth binde conscience by vertue of the generall commaundement of God which ordaineth the Magistrates authority that whosoeuer shall wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit such Lawes is guiltie of sinne before God Yea the very lawes of men may after a sort be tearmed the law of God The Emperours saith Saint b Aug. Epist 166. lib. â— contra secundum Gandentii epistolam Augustin when they commaund good it is none but Christ who commaundeth by them Notwithstanding all this our Puritanes vpon my knowledge thinke that a Christian mans libertie is to liue as hee list and for this cause some of them haue refused to receiue the Lords supper kneeling c. They will not forsooth haue their soules drawne vnder the yoake of humane power And a thousand of the Clergy did not long since c See their surplicatioÌ„ to the King groane vnder the burden of humane rites and ceremonies Thus you see that our Sectaries thinke it seruitude and an vnsupportable burthen to submitte their neckes and soules to the yoake of humane obedience in thinges indifferent which as our Gracious Soueraigne hath well obserued d See the sum of the conference page 71 smelleth very ranckly of Anabaptisme comparing it vnto the vsage of a Beardlesse Boy one Iohn Blacke who the last conference his Majestye had with the Ministers in Scotland in December 1602. tolde him that he would hold conformity with his Maiesties Ordinances for matters of Doctrine but for matters of ceremonie they were to be left in Christian libertie vnto euery man as he receiued more and more light from the illumination of Gods spirit euen till they goe madde quoth the King with their owne light but I will none of that I will haue one Doctrine and one Discipline one Religion in substance and one in ceremanie But what other thinges haue you obserued in these your peeuish and peruerse Scismatickes The Germaine I Haue obserued that they were of such a peruerse nature The 15. seÌ„blance as that they would not onely take vnto themselues libertie in thinges indifferent and therein omit their duetie a Gastius dâ— erroribus
catabapt but they endeauoured to the vtmost of their power to commit the quite contrary that so they might crosse the Magistrate The Englishman That which you say was the custome of your Anabaptists hath beene the custome of Heretickes and Scismatickes in all ages The Eunomian Heretickes in dishonor of the blessed Trinitie brought in the laying on of water in baptisme but once to crosse the custom of the church which did it thrice other Heretickes which held the Tâ—initie to bee three distinct not Persons but natures abused the cereremonie of three times laying on of water to the strengthning of their Heresie and to the crossing of the custome of the Church in their times The selfe same thing hath beene practised by our Scismatickes for some of them haue sent their Seruants to the Plough and Cart vpon the verye fâ—ast of the Natiuitie of Christ to crosse the custome of our Church which keepeth it holy Others as the reuerend Fathers in Oxford were credibly informed did b Oxfords answere to the Petiâ—ion spend the fift of August last in fasting to crosse that authoritie which coÌ„maunded them to celebrate it with ioy and thankefulnes for his Maiesties moste strange and wonderfull deliuerance from the conspiraâ—ie of the Earle of Gowrie c King vpon Iâ—nas â—ect 36. And I heard of a nation of mâ—n saith Doctor King when their King had intended a feast for the honour of his country they on the contrary side proclaimed a Fast as if God had sent them an Embassador of the last iudgement And I know a societie of men who in the time of Lent were wont to eate Flesh-meate seauen daies in the weeke though out of Lent but fiue daies I thinke they did it for no other end but onely to crosse the authoritie of that power which inioyneth vs to abstaine from Flesh-meate at that season of the yeare Thus doe they behaue themselues much like them vnto whome it was said by Christ in the behalfe of all painefull Apostles and Ministers Wee haue piped to you and ye haue not daunced wee haue mourned to you ye haue not wept To conclude they will euer be in an extreame for when we Feast they will Fast when wee Fast they will Feast But tell mee Sir did they not also speake euill of them that were in authoritie The Germaine The 16. seÌ„blance YEs they did as Zuinglius reporteth speake euill of the a Zuinglius in â—lencho contra Anabap. ciuill Magistrate if at any time heere prooued theÌ„ then they straight way said that therefore hee was an enemie vnto them because they did tell him of his faults The Englishman Your Anabaptists come far short of our Sectaries in this point for many of them haue reposed a great part of their Christian profession zeale in the reproaching and odious traducing of them that are in authoritie h Exhortat to England Page 92. They haue exhorted the common people to repute those Princes that liue not vnder the Yoake of the pretended holy Discipline for Gods enemies c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 39. They haue informed them That all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the liberties of the Church Yea they made complaint to his Highnesse that our late Soueraigne made their yoake greeuous that she had laide vpon them an heauie burden of humaine rites and ceremonies They haue depraued and slaundered not onely the CommunioÌ„ Booke but the whole estate of the Church as it was reformed by her Maiestie Yea in her Highnes life time the state of this Church of England was so depraued beyond the Seas by these our disciplinairians as that it hath beene conceiued by Godly men in forraigne Countries that we haue a Gualther episcopâ— Eliens Anno. 1574. No lawes no good orders no discipline but that euery maÌ„ may doe what he list But I pray you tel me were not your Anabaptists punished for these their vile attempts The Germaine The 17. seÌ„blance YEs but they greatly complaâ—ned that b Bulling aduers Anabapt Fol. 11. nothing was vsed but violence The Englishman So haue our Sectaâ—ies also complained to the Kinges Maiesty that c Petition exhibited to the Kings Maiesty they haue beene suspended silenced disgraced and imprisoned for mens traditions The Germaine Well let vs leaue this their impugning of the Magistracie come to their oppugning of the Ministerie And let vs beginne with the Vniuersities because they are the ordinarie meanes to maintaine the Ministerie The Englishman With the Vniuersities why I hope they did not oppose themselues against the fountaines and Wel-springs of good learning The Germaine The 18. seÌ„blance YEs d The Author of the Suruey cap. 26. your owne writers can teâ—l you that they wrote very scornefully against the Vniuersitie degrees The Englishman And to tell you the truth so did our Sectaries too e These words I found in a Manu-script of theirs Doctors in Theologie say they is vnlawfull It is mans ordinance without tâ—â—â—ord of God it cannot be taken without an idle oath it is offenciue to the Church of God it is a matter of distinction of the mindes of the Ministers it is one of the swelling titles forbiddin to Ministers it is a Relique of Rome as are Priestes Deacons Archbishoppes it is in regard of the forme thereof a manifest abuse of Gods ordinance of his Ministers after an apish manner giuing authoritie of preaching it is an idle name to bee called Doctors except they haue Schollers and doe teach them c. But what neede I produce their Manu-scripts It is a See their addition to the first part of the Admon and T. C. Lib. 2. page 2â— apparent enough in their Bookes extant that they mislike the degrees of Doctors and Batchelors in Diuinitie The Germaine The 19. seÌ„blance YEa but our Sectaries misliked not onely degrees in the Vniuersitie but in the Ministerie also For the proofe hereof I refer you to the expresse words of b Gerlach in Hyper. Dan. Page 3. Gerlachius a learned maÌ„ of Tubing Liâ—et saith he titulos c. Although thou beholdest with disdaine as it were from aboue the titles orders after the fashion of the Hypocrites Anabaptists yet with a vaine perswasion of knowledge foolish arrogancie whereby thou contemnest our Country-men in respect of thy selfe and doost challenge especiall knowledge to thee and thy fellowes onely Plus turgâ—s quam omnes Doctores et Superintendentes nostri Thou swellest more with pride then all our Doctors and Superintendents And what commeth into thy minde that thou shouldest cauill at the degrees of Ministers as though it were not lawfull to ordaine such degrees for the building gouernment of the Church Did not God himselfe in the olde Testament appoint cheefe Priestes and Leuites and in the New Testament gaue hee not some Apostles some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Doctors You see heere that the Anabaptists
contemned our Superintendents beheld with disdaine their Titles and Offices The Englishman The Titles and Offices of Arch-bishoppes and Bishops are more auncient and necessarye then the Titles and Offices of Superintendents are for the Apostle Peter did as Clemens hath obserued appoint in a Clemens in CompeÌ„diario Christiana Religion euery Prouince one Arch-bishop whome all other Bishops of the Prouince should obey And wee reade that Dyonisius Areopagita was b Volusus epist ad Nichol. 1. Archbishoppe of Athens and appointed thereunto by Saint Paul that Timothie was c Chrysost in 1. Timoth. 5. Bishoppe of Ephesus that Titus was d Chrysost in 1. Tit. Bishop of Creta that Saint Iohn e Euseb lib. 3 cap. 23. gouerned the Church in Asia after his returne from Pathmos that Iames was f Euseb lib. 2. cap. 23. Bishoppe of Ierusalem that Polycarpe was g Tertul. de Prescript Bishoppe of Smirna that Demetrius was h Euseb lib. 6 cap. 1 Bishoppe of Alexandria that Saint Cyprian was i cyprian lib 4 Epist 8. Bishoppe of Carthage that Saint Gregory was k Euseb lib. 7. cap. 14. Bishop of Pontus that Saint Chrysostome was l Theod. lib. 5. cap. 28. Archbishoppe of Constantinople that Theodoret was m Theod. epist ad Leon. Bishoppe of Cyprus And in Elutherius his time which was Anno Dom. 180. when this Realme was first conuerted to Christianitie there was as Maister Fox n Tom. 1. page 146. acknowledgeth appointed in the same three Archbishoppes and 28. Bishops All which notwithstanding the fauourites of the new fangle-faction would haue instead of Arch-bishoppes an equalitie of Ministers If you wiâ— restore the Church say the Admonitors to his auncient Officers this you must doe instead of an Arch-bishoppe or Lord Bishoppe you must make equalitie of Ministers Yea o T. C. lib 2 page 438. the learnedst of them is not ashamed to write that Archbishops and Bishoppes are new Ministeries neuer ordained by God The Germaine The 20. seÌ„blance A Although p Gerlachius in Hyper. Dan. page 30. the Anabaptists pretended the forenamed equalitie yet they sought Dominion laboured onely to pull the rule from others that the rule might haue boâ—â—e in their owne handes and that they onelye might haue borne the sway The Englishman That our Puritanes doe the like I prooue it by the late Archbishops experience You desire saith a In his deseÌ„ce of the answere to the Admonition page 459. hee this equalitie not because you would not rule for it is manifest that you seeke it moste ambitiously in your manner but because you condemne and disdaine to bee ruled and to bee in subiection Indeede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to doe what you list in your seuerall cures without controlement of Prince Bishoppe or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seek Dominion I speake that I knowe by experience in some of you But let vs see what other speeches they deliuered against your ecclesiasticall Magistrates The 21. seÌ„blance The Germaine VVHat needes so many wordes b Gerlacius in Hyper Dan. Page 30. Gerlachius telleth you that they disdained them scorned them rayled on them The Englishman Yea but they haue not come neere our Puritanes in this point I will acquaint you with some of their speeches which they haue belched out against the Reuerend Fathers of our Church They c See their Booke inituled Hay yee any worke page 14. 15. 20. 21 blush not to say that Archbishoppes and Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ that they maime and deforme his body making it by that meanes a Monster that they are vnlawfull false and bastardly gouernours of the Church that they are ordinances of the Deuill that they are in respect of their places enemies of God that they are Petty Popes pettie Antichristes Bishoppes of the Deuill that the lawes that maintaine Archbishops Bishops are no more to be accounted of then the lawes that maintaine stewes that the true church of God ought to haue no more to doe with them their Sinagogues then with the sinagogues of Sathan But not to interrupt your speech any longer what was the câ—use that the Anabaptists railed on your church-gouernors The Germaine The 22. seÌ„-blance SVrely a Bulling advers Anabap. Fol. 19. 95. 242. because they endeuoured to bring them to conformitie by compulsion The Englishman By the orders of our Church and lawes of the Realme there is required of our Ministers a subscriptioÌ„ to his Majestres lawfull authority in causes Ecclesiasticall to the Articles of Religion to the Booke of Common Prayer and to the orders Rites Ceremonies of our Church Now because our Church-gouernours do according to their duetie depriue those of their liuings that refuse to subscribe heerunto The Puritanes doe complaine of rigor and reuile Gods high Priest which Saint b Act. 23. 5. Paul repented hee had ignorantly done though that high Priest was an vsurper I confesse indeede that they haue yeilded to subscribe to c See their petition to the King the Articles of Religion and to the Kings suprmacie but this is not sufficient for it is a thing too manifest with what libelling and rayling the forme of our Seruice of our Ceremonies of our apparell c. hath beene depraued and shamefully slaundered by these factious Sprits They haue blazed and diuulged abroade as shall heereafter be shewed more at large that the Communion Booke was culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse Booke that it is Papisticall that it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes then to the Papists It behooueth therfore the reuerend Fathers of our Church to compell them to subscribe not onely to the Articles of Religion and to the Kinges supremacy but to the Communion Booke also and to the Discipline of our Church Neyther ought they to thinke that they are too rigorously dealt withal if that they be compelled vrged to shew their conformitie in all thinges seeing that the same course is taken in all other Churches for the repressing of schisme To insist onely in one particular whosoeuer is made Minister at Geneua he sweareth to keepe a Vide leges Geneuens Fol. 3. all their Ecclesiasticall ordinances Yea we reade b Vide Bezam in vita Caluin that Maister Caluin procured a generall oath to be taken through out the whole Cittie of Geneua for the approbation therof Now why should not our Reuerend Bishops haue as free libertie to doe the like But tell mee did not your Anabaptists require a secret subscription of their followers The Germaine Yes although they would not yeild their conformitie with vs in obseruing the good lawes and ordinances of our Church yet priuatlie as c Sleidan L. 6 Sleidan reporteth they gaue their mutuall faith and oath each to other The Englishman The 23.
one Thâ—mâ—â— Muâ—cer in Germanye who taught that God euen in these daies doth reueale his will by dâ—eames visions and reuelations c Ipsemeâ— mihi coram prâ—misit c. Slâ—â—dan Câ—â— â— God saith hee hath waâ—â—aÌ„ted â—e face to face he that cannot lye hath commaunded me to attempt the change by these meanes euen by killing the Magistrâ—tes And Phifer his lewde companion did but dreame in the night time of the killing of many Mice presentâ—ye expounded his dreame of murthering the Nobles Yea at Sangallâ—â— a Towne in Switherland one of our Anabaptists did as d Suriuâ— in coment Sâ—â—ius reporteth cut off the head of his owne natural Brother the Parents to them both standing by And the reason which hee had for dooing it waâ— forsooth because it was commaunded him from aboue Now tell mee was there euer any such fellowes in England Englishman Yes there was one a See the conspâ—â— Page 42. Hacket that tolde the people that God had reuealed his will vnto him extraordinarily and that he had receiued an imediate calling from God to reforme the Church and to cal the whole world to repentance There was also a b Conspir pag 14. Puritan preacher that informed the said Hacket that God doth wil from time to time rayse vp extraordinary workes and helpers to his Church as Apostles Euang elistâ— and Prophets where neede requireth And for the proofe of this his opinion hee produced the example of one that cryedvp and downe the streetes in Ierusalem before it was besiedged The Germaine Yea but was this Hacket a Puritane your Puritanes happily will not acknowledge him to be one of their side The Englishman Yes that hee was a Puritane it may appeare by these his Puritane trickes viz 1. c For the proof of al these particulars following I referre you to a Booke extant entiâ—â—led the conspiracie of preteÌ„ded reformation page 4. 1â— 14. 34. 3â— He followed such Preachers at did fitte his humor and would not heare Maister Ray the Preacher of the Townew here he dwelt 2. Hee burned in desire of reforming the Church and Common-wealth 3. Hee had some of the Bretheren to fast with him before he attempted his reformation 4. Hee purposed to plant in euery congrâ—gation an clder shippe or consistone of Doctors Pastâ—rs Lay-â—lders and widowes 5 He rayled on the Bishops and on all other that withstood this his reformation But what need I stand to proue this who knoweth not how that hee and his two counterfet Prophets the selfe-same day they arose in Cheap-side tolde the said Puritan-preacher in the morning that reformation and the Lords discipline should then forth-with he established They did also charge him to put all Christians in comforte that they should shortly see a ioyfull alteration in the state of the Church-gouernment Thus you see how that we haue confitentemreum the confession of his owne lips against him-selfe so that there needs no more to doe as Dauid spake to the young man that brought newes of the death of Saul Os tuum contra te loqutum est thine owne mouth hath spoken against thee The Germaine Yea but was that Preacher a Puritane that auouched extraordinary callings by the example of him that cryed vp and downe the streetes of Hierusalem before it was besiedged The Englishman Yes for hee was d See the conspir pag. 2 Vicar of Sâ—dbergo and Dent in the Northern partes and for his intolerable insolencies and contempt of the gouernment of the Church was both depriued of that his Benefice and deposed from the Ministerie by the authoritie of our late Soueraignes Commission for causes Ecclesiasticall But to proceede in order did there euer arise vp amongest the Anabaptists any such like Prophets as these were The Germaine Yes in the month of Iuly Anno Dom. 1533. a new Prophet beeing a Gold-smith by his trade arose vp amongst them who called the multitude together into the market-place and signified vnto them that it was the will of God that Iohn of Lâ—yden should be Emperour of all the Earth and that hee should destroye all Princes and Potentates but spare the common people that loued sinceritie The Englishman As your Iohn of Leyden was Proclaimed Emperour by the Golde-smith Anno Dom. 1533. so was a See the conspir Page 66. Hacket proclamed King by his counterfet Prophets the 33. yere of the Raigne of our late Soueraigne Queene of famous memory But proceed on I pray you in this matter The Germaine IN the said yere of our Lord about the end of December The 81. seÌ„blance one of our Anabaptists pretending himselfe to be diuinely inspired and rauished in spirit did goe through the street of the Citie of Munster crying Repent repent and be againe Baptized or else the iudgement and wrath of God will quickely or suddenly fall vpon you The Englishman So in the said yeere of our late Queenes raigne vpon the 16. of Iuly in the morning did b See the consp pag. 55. 56. the Annales of England collected by Iohn Stowe pag. 1288. Hackets said Prophets goe from one Walkers house neere vnto Broken-Wharfe in London and going from thence by Watlingstreete Olde-Change toward Cheapside cryed out and said Christ Iesus is come with his Fanne in his hand to iudge the earth Repent England repent repent But now to conclude this whole discourse what other outragious villanie committed your Anabaptists The Germaine The 82. seÌ„blance Truely they joyned their forces together and made an insurrection as you may read in Sleidan and in other of our Germaine writers The Englishman So did Hacket likewise commit Treason against our late Queenes Majestie in the three and thirtith yeare of her Raigne and for the same was arraigned on the 26. of Iuly immediately following and c See the Annales of England pag. 1289 by twâ— seuerall inditements found guiltie as to haue vttered and spoken diuers moste false trayterous wordes against her Maiesty to haue raced and defaced her Maiesties Armes as also a certaine Picture of the Queenes Maiestie and did malicionsly and trayterously thrust an iron instrument into that parte of the said Picture that did represent the Breast and Heart of the Queens Maiestie God Almightle who preserued her Majestie from the Trayterous stratagems of all her enemies and gathered her to her Fathers in peace Preserue him likewise that sitteth on her Throne after her and when he is gathered to his Fathers the woe whereof fall vpon an other age let him goe to rest with greater tokens of his fauour then euer to fall into the handes of such Anabaptisticall Puritanes oâ— any other Trayterous enemies The Germaine Euen so Lord Iesu Amen Amen Puritano-papismus OR A Discouerie of Puritan-papisme made by way of Dialogue or conference betweene a Protestant and a Puritane The 1. Dialogue Wherein is plainely shewed that the Puritanes haue in sundry things ioyned with the Pharisies Apostolickes Aerians Pepuzians Petrobrusians Florinians Cerinthians
and so giue them that reuerence which is due to the Messengers of God But to let this passe I pray you what busiâ—es haue you at the Parliament The Puritane I am the mouth of my Brethren to the Honorable Senate of Parliament that some of our Ecclesiasticall lawes may be repealed and changed The Protestant Were I worthy to bee the mouth of my Brethren to that Honorable Senate I would make humble sute that you might be seuerely punished for seeking to repeale change those lawes which were enacted by graue and learned men You would not be so busie with your Billes at the Parliament if that law were of force amongst vs which as b Demost coÌ„tr◠〈◊〉 Demosteâ—es testifieth was of force amongst the Locrians viz That he that should offer â—o repeale and change aâ—â—cient lawes and put vp new should come with a Halter about his Neck to the Parliament that if there were better reason against his Lawes he should be hanged vp for his â—olde attempt The Puritane I would be 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Protestant Well follow your owne 〈◊〉 yet let me tel you with a Seneca in 〈◊〉 Seneca that it is not good to be busie in a will ordered state But I pray you make Auricular confession vnto me tell me in myne eare haue you no other businesse at the Parliament The Puritane Yes if we cannot procure an alteration of the Iewes we will make sute for a dispensation The Protestant I cannot see how it may stand with equitie that some should be bound to shewe their conformitie and obedience to Lawes and others be dispensed with It is Seneca his saying b Seneca in Epist Acqualitas prima pars aequitatis est Equalitie is the first and chiefe part of Equitie Againe such a dispensation would breed diuision For a diuision in Lawes maketh a diuision in Kingdomes and causeth partaking among the people and chusing of sides and therwithall strife enuy emulations contentions and a thousand other such mischiefes And as diuision in Lawes causeth diuision in Kingdomes so diuision in King-domes causeth the ouerthrow and subuersion of King-domes For it is a sure principle and maxime which our Sauiour giueth in the Gospell A kingdome diuided against it selfe cannot stand Now if the Kingdome of Sathan diuided against it selfe cannot stand how can a Kingdome of flesh and blood and of motrall men But though no such danger were likely to ensue vpon such a tolleration and conniuencie yet it standeth not with any conueniencie that one people within the same land and vnder the same gouernment should bee vnder diuers lawes It is 〈◊〉 his saying and it is an Oracle for truth that they ought to be vnder one Law that are vnder the gouernement of one King a Curtius lib. 10. Eiusdem iuris saith hee esse debent quisub eodem rege victuri sunt It is also the iudgement of auncient fathers that all those that liue in the same Church together should bee vnder Law indifferently and should bee enforced by the Lawe to accommodate themselues to the customes of the place wherin they liue In his rebus saith Saint b August Epist 86. Augusten de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maioruÌ„ pro lege tenenda sunt And in another place c Aug. Epist 218. Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bones mores iniungitur indifferenter est habendum et pro corum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est And Saint Ierome holdeth it very meete that Ecclesiasticall traditions namely such as doe not hinder faith should bee obserued as they are deliuered of our Elders that the custome of one should not be ouerthrowne with the contrarie customes of others His words are these d Hieron ad Luciuium Traditiones ecclesiasticas praesertim quae fidei non officiunt ita obseruandas vt a maioribus traditae sunt nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti With these auncient Fathers of the Church our latter writers goe hand in hand Gwalther writing vpoÌ„ the first to the Corinthians saith thus e Gualther in 1. Cor. 5. Let euery Church followe the manner of Disciplyne which dooth moste agree with the people place and time And in the Preface to the same Epistle he saith that in rites and ceremonies there can bee no better rule for a graue and wise Christian then that he doe after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall paraduenture come And Hemmingius holdeth it an haynous sinne to break the ordinances of the Church f HeÌ„mingius in syntag cap. de adiaphoris Qui violat saith hee ecclesiasticam politiam pec at multis modis Zanchius also propoundeth vs this rule to obserue that in externall thinges wee would applye our selues to the customes of the Countries where wee conuerse I will acquaint you with his wordes a Zanchius de operibus Dei part 3. l. 4. c 2 Tenenda stregula Apostoli de his externis rebus quae etiaÌ„ apud Gentiles visitate sunt vt quae non pugnant cum verbo Dei nullam redolent vel superstitionem vel faeditatem eaâ— pro more consuetudine regionis vbi degimus vna cum alijs obseruemus Further if you please to heare Doctor Whitakers hee is no colde aduocate Proctor in this point He doubteth not to say that the Church hath authoritie to make Lawes in causes ecclesiasticall and to inioyne men to obserue them and to punish the refusers I will giue you his expresse words b Whitak controuers 3. de concil quaest 1. Habuit Ecclesia semper authoritatem lâ—ges Ecclesiasticas condendi sanciendi easque alijs imperandi eos puniendi qui non obseruarent As for Maister Perkins he is so far froÌ„ exempting any froÌ„ shewing their coÌ„formity obedieÌ„ce to yâ— good lawes of the Church as that hee holdeth them guilty of sinne before God that doe wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit them His wordes are these c perkins in his treatise of conscience Wholesome Lawes of men made of thinges indifferent so far foorth bind conscience by vertue of the generall commaundement of God which ordaineth the Magistrates authoritie that whosoeuer shall wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit such Lawes is guiltie of sinne before GOD And in an other place of the same treatise The Lawes which the Church in proper speech is said to make are dicrees concerning outward order and comelinesse in the administration of the word and Sacraments in the meetinges of the Congregation c. And such Lawes made according to the generall rules of Gods word which requires that all thinges be done to edification in comelinesse for the auoyding of offence are necessarie to be obserued and the word of God bindes d It dispenses with none all men to them so farre foorth aâ— the keeping of them maintaines decent order and preuents open offence But what neede I drawe mine arguments from the Cisternes of humane authoritie It is the Apostles direction that we should a Phil. â— 16 all proceede by one rule and minde one thing that wee should b 1. Cor. 1. 10. all bee knit together in one minde and in one iudgement and that we should c Phil. 1. 27. all continue in one spirit and in one minde God Almightie whose work alone it is that those who dwell together in one house shall bee of one minde so magnifie his work amoÌ„gst vs yâ— we who dwell together in one Kingdome may now at length be of one minde and liue in peace And thus I leaue you wishing first of all your conformitie if that cannot be had my next wish is that you were dealt withall as Phillip of Macedon dealt with two of his subjects in whom there was little hope of grace d Alterum â— Macedonia fugere alterum persequi iussâ—t hee made one of them to runne out of the countrie and the other to driue him So his people were rid of both FINIS