to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
certainely knowne hitherto nor euer expressy belieued before Which how they may be reconciled amongst them selues or stand with this that tradition is our rule of faith I confesse I know not Vncle. Truly cozen your obiection is strong yet I hope to content you For the first part of it I see no great matter in the varietie of opinions amongst our Deuines for you see they seeke out the Decider of pointes of doctrine that is by whose mouth we are to know vpon occasions of dispute what and which be our pointes and articles of faith to wit whether the Pope or the Councell or both Which is not much materiall to our pourpose what euer the truth be supposing we acknowledge no articles of faith but such as haue descended vnto vs by tradition from Christ and his Apostles The second part of your obiection seeme's to be of greater force because some Deuines seeme to acknowledge an authoritie in the church which hath power not only to determine ether speculatiue or practicall points of doctrine new or ould in such manner as that the whole church is obliged to accepte or not oppose it's definition which euerie Catholike grante's and the reasons I tould you in our first conference doe euidently conuince But also that this authoritie can so determine euen a speculatiue pointe of doctrine which hitherto was euer vncertaine nor euer acknowledge as reueiled or esteemed as an article of faith that here after the vhole church shal be obliged to receiue acknowledge and belieue it as a reuealed and necessarie point of Christian doctrine and as an article of faith Which opinion you must knowe is but an opinion nor doe the authours of it oblige anie man to belieue it as certaine nor doe they condemne those who nether doe nor euer will acknowledge anie such positiō ād therefore this ought not to trouble you Nay contrariwise all Deuines will generally tell you that no new articles of faith can be made that there 's now no reuelations for new points of doctrine and that Christ Iesus was our only law maker in this kinde hauing suggested to his Apostles all that is necessarie of this nature and qualitie and the Apostles likewise taught their churches all that was necessarie to be knowne of this degree Wherefore you see all agree vpon tradition nor anie one ether denie it or doubt of it Whereas it appeare's by the diuersitie of their opinions that they doe not vniuersally and generally agree in anie other meanes or rule of faith though some admitte of another in waie of opinion Yet to giue you farther satisfaction in this busines I will teach you a point of philosophie which perhapps you neuer fully vnderstood I am sure you will not denie but t' is a differēt questiō to aske how an herbe or tree growe's and to aske how Aristole or Theophrastus saies it growe's for in the same growing there can be no varietie but in their opiniōs there may So in man t' is a differēt thing what he doth or is done in him and what he thinkes he doth or is done in him as in sicknesse disgestion and other naturall workes t' is euident yea and in voluntary actions too Which depende of corporall instruments as to goe runne turne our eyes speake cough spit or the like which we doe freely and voluntarily yet were we examined by what instruments and motiōs we doe thē peraduēture who seeme's to know most would be found short at least amongst manie there would be diuers opinions But doe you thinke the same happen's in our thoughts and iudgmēts which be purely spirituall Nephew I cannot tell yet me thinke's the soule should be so wel acquainted with hir owne actiōs as that she should not neede anie helpe to know them And all men agree that only man vpon earth can see his owne minde and therefore if it be not cleere to man what himself thinke's nothing is cleere Vncle. You are deceiued cosen for as long as we are in this world we cannot know anie thing of our owne thoughts and affections but as we reflect vpon the corporall motions which accompanie them and which because none feele but our selues none can knowe bur our selues though sometimes it happene's quite contrarie when these motiōs breake forth into outward apparence for thē others discrye our mindes and we our selues through the violēce of passiō are not so wel able ro iudge of them as others who see vs. But to speake of men free from passion and who vse to reflect much vpon their owne thoughts euen in them their internall actions proceede frō a principle directed by a superior guide then their owne reason as appeare's by this that they know nothing of their owne thoughts but by reflection and the reflection is a distinct act from the former vpon which the reflectiō is made so that nether the reflectiō it self is alwaise made by voluntarie designe nor anie act which is made without reflection Besides considere I pray how few know by what verue their vnderstandings are made certaine of those principles and positiōs which they cannot doubt of or by what vertue they adhere so strongly to the conclusion of a sylogisme not one of a thousand who doe these things euerie day Wherefore t' is euidēt that euen in our spirituall actions not all that we doe is done by our proper vnderstāding that is with knowing reflection and designe and therefore the same man may euē in these intellectuall acts doe one thing and thinke he doth an other and diuers men may agree in what they doe and yet disagree in their opinions of what it is they doe And now to close with your difficultie seeing faith is a persuasion or an agreeing in some points by reason af authoritie All the Doctors of the Catholike church may agree in beleeuing that is in acting and practizing their faith in the same manner and yet be deuided in their speculations by which they seeke to determine what it is they doe And it is their doeings which make's them Christians and not their sayings for they liue and beleeue as Christians but speake and deliuer their opinions as Doctors which be qualities farr different from being a Christian And doe you not see that these Doctors belieue after their speculations and framing of their opinions as they did before they thought of or studied this difficultie Nephew I doe not doubt but they doe for the faith of all Christians must needes be the same and consequently all must goe vpon the same motiue though one may vnderstand better and apprehende deeper that motiue then an other doth Vncle. You saie well Considere then that when these Doctors were yong men and had not yet studied Diuinitie and you shall finde that they had no other motiue of their belife but the authoritie of the present church and therefore how soeuer they discourse learnedly in their bookes the conclusion must be in their liues to rest vpon the authoritie of the
condemne themselues Why Catholikes censure Protestants so hardly But we Catholikes censure Protestants first becaus they refuse that which we hold to be the true rule of faith to witt the churche's authoritie or tradition And sithence the rule of faith runne's through the whole course of our beliefe ād is the tennor and principle vpon which we hold euerie particular article t' is euident that who doth not accepte of this right and true rule of attaining to the knowledge of Christian faith cannot belieue aright nor haue true faith but by chance and therefore will misse it for the most part Secondly this rule of ours tell 's vs that Protestant's negatiue positions are against the generall good of the multitude of Christians that is against charitie and God's law hindering them from diuers important and necessarie meanes conducing to saluation Lastly it were meere folly to leaue possession vpon a slight argument For as in equalitie the better proofe should carrie the cause the equall deuide it so where there is possession on the one side there nothing but such conuiction as the nature of the cause doth beare ought to waine possession otherwise no human possession would be stable and constant Now Catholikes are as certaine of these two pointes as that they liue and breath to witt that they haue possession And that there 's no euident conuiction hitherto passed and shewed against them Wherefore I see not why a Protestant should be offended that the Catholikes censure all their Aduersaries in generall so seuerely sithence t' is manifest that if they should not doe so they would not only betraye their owne principles but also denye their breetheren that fraternall rebuke and admonition which the law of God and good neighbourhood require's at the hands of men so persuaded as these grounds force and oblige vs to be Nephew Surely then this is the reason why the church now and then chasticeth such subiects as rebell in beliefe against hir which the Protestants so exclame at Vncle. T' is so in deede and being no other church can haue this principle against vs if at anie time they persecute vs for our faith and beliefe they must needes doe it more out of passion and reuenge then out of anie rationall loue and knowing zeale to God and Religion And now cozen I hope you conceiue the extreme necessitie and maine importance of these pointes which we haue talked of being such as that the church of God cannot subsiste without them and essentiall to Christ's coming to witt to establish some to haue the charge and care of teaching and gouerning his church And that these teachers and Gouernors haue great credit and authoritie euen supernaturall and more then human And that their iudgment in matters of beliefe and Religion is to stand good nor may be subiected to the weake and wauering iudgmēt of the laietie that is of men ignorant in the principles of their science and discipline And lastly that being thus vnited they haue the true and right rule of knowing Christ's law and those things which are to be belieued and practized All which you see are of that nature that the verie essence of a Christian church and communitie cannot subsiste and continue without anie of them all And without such a church the Generalitie of mankinde cannot be maintained in charitie nor without charitie arriue to eternall Happinesse for which both charitie and all these other pointes are absolutly necessarie This hath beene the chaine of our discourse hitherto if you haue well vnderstood and conceiued my intention Which likewise you see I haue done by the light of common sense and reason according to my promis And sithence you would haue me to goe this waye and nether flye vp to sublime metaphysickes nor drowne your memorie with tedious allegations of authors we will still continue in the same path insisting in the principles of nature and shewing that diuers pointes of our faith and practise which the Protestants deney are euen by their conformitie to naturall reason it self ād by their owne proper force and efficacitie of causing and producing good and vertuous effects in a Christian cōmunitie and thereby contributing to saluation are I saie of no smale consequence and importance First therefore tell me whether you thinke there be anie other necessitie in respect of the pointes controuerted betwixt vs and the Protestants then this absolute and maine one which we haue alreadie talked of I meane whether there be not an other necessitie which though not altogether so great in it self and of it's owne nature yet such an one as is sufficient to make a pointe of importance and of such importance as that to reiecte it would be a lawfull and iust cause to refuse and denye communion to the refractarie and obstinate opposers thereof And lett vs put the question thus §. 8 Whether some pointes may not be of necessitie in a lower degree as in particular the vse of pictures or Images NEphew I told you before how I thought necessitie might be distinguished into an absolute necessitie and into a necessitie of a meanes for abtaining the thing we desire with greater ease and cōueniencie and you liked well of it But me thinke's it were a hard case to depriue anie man of that meanes and qualitie without which he cannot absolutly attaine to his end that others may come to their ends with greater ease and securitie And therefore I should thinke that no other necessitie but an absolute one were sufficient to deserue excommunication which I take to be a depriuing of a partie from that without which he cannot obtaine eternall Blisse Vncle. Why cozen lett vs suppose that in a communitie of one hundreth thousand nyntie thousand would neuer attaine to Blisse though absolutly they could vnlesse the waye were made easie doe you thinke it were fitt or tollerable in anie one or in a douzen to take awaie the meanes whereby the waye were facilitated to the rest Nay suppose ten thousand of the hundreth thousand would arriue to happinesse with great paines and labours were it not better in the Gouernor's eye who ought to be a common father to them all to lett the thenth part perish then all the other nine Nephew I confesse I see myne ouersight for truly the church is bound in such a case to proceede with rigor And the partie which will not condescende to helpe the frailtie of their breetheren doth by this very fact deserue to loose the protection of charitie which it willfully abandon's And in effect such a partie hath alreadie putt it selfe out of the secret communitie of God's church and the Gouernor is only to performe it in externall apparence Vncle. Add to this cozen that such a partie doth willfully stand out in this manner vpon pride and faction to iustifie their opinion And that they trench vpon the Gouermēt ordained by Iesus Christ them selues not being caled therevnto proudly setting themselues in the seate of iudgment to
of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
in iudging white froÌ„ blacke because for sooth some weake eyes are now aÌ„d theÌ„ mistaken or as to saie no bodie can walke because some haue the palsey which were in deede to destroye nature and it's constancie in vniuersalls because of it's defectibilitie in it's particulars which is against common sense and reason Vncle. Well then doe you thinke their immediate forefathers could teach theÌ„ anie thing as of this qualitie but what themselues belieued and had receiued in the same manner Nephew No surely their immediate forefathers could not deliuer anie thing as of this nature to their successors against the doctrine which they had receiued from their predecessours euer standing in this principle that nothing is to be belieued as of necessitie in this degree but what came by hand to hand froÌ„ Christ or his Apostles Vncle. Tell me then I pray whether in the two last pointes that is whether ether we can be deceiued in what was deliuered by our immediate forefathers vnto vs as of this kinde or they deliuer vs anie doctrine as of this qualitie but what them selues receiued in the like sort whether I saie in ether of these two points there be anie differeÌ„ce betwixt anie former age and this our presentage or that what you haue granted of this age the same must not necessarily hold in all other ages euer since Christ Nephew I confesse I see noe difference Vncle. Reflect then vpon what you haue granted and considere whether anie error against a receiued doctrine aÌ„d practize of this nature could so creepe in as that there shoud be no determinate age of it's beginning in which it first tooke roote and flourished Nephew T' is not possible that anie thing should beginne and yet beginne in no time For I conceiue that an age is no smale time aÌ„d giue 's no litle growth to anie thing that beginne's so that to saie anie point of doctrine is a whole age in growing aÌ„d to saie with all it is imperceptible and after a whole age vnsensible is without doubt senslesse Yet if anie should saie that an error had beene begun by a priuate man and taught to some in one age which being neglected grew into practize in some one countrie and froÌ„ theÌ„ce by the like neglect grew likewise to be customarie in the next adioyning and so spredd it self vntill it had possessed the hart of Christendome and this for manie yeares so that now all memorie that euer the contrarie had beene in credit and practize were lost if this I saie one should tell me I doubt whether I should be able to giue him a conuincing answere and demonstratiue satisfaction Vncle. Cosen this question trencheth vpon what we haue alreadie talked of therefore I will only giue you such a hint as your self may worke vpon First it is as manifest an impossibilitie that a change of Religion should be introduced insensibly into anie one Countrie as that a burning feauer should for as long time consume the same whole couÌ„trie without being taken notice of or sought to be preuented sithence as we saide nature permit's vs not generally to be sleepie in Religion Secondly to saie it shall passe imperceptible from country to countrie and so get possession of the whole Christian world is farr more impossible men's natures and dispositioÌ„s being so diuers that if they were put to we are cappes or shoes a like it could not be effected but by some publicke force or commande Thirdly that this should be for so long a terme that the coÌ„trarie practize should be quit forgotteÌ„ to haue beene formerly in vse and request is yet beyoÌ„d both So that who soeuer is troubled with this doubt doth not rightly vnderstand the nature of Christian Religion which is a truth of the qualitie of science hanging all together Wherevnto a truth may be added and yet remaine whole but if anie falsitie or crosse position be admitted it will not only destroy the positioÌ„ immediatly opposite but also what soeuer dependeth of it that is all in deede but cheefely tradition And so we see by experience that none euer moued anie point of faith but if their reuolt dured loÌ„g they proceeded so farr as to take a waie tradition the rule of all we are to belieue But can you tell me haue we reached to the resolution of your demande aÌ„d are you fully satisfied Nephew This you haue concluded that if our church rely vpon traditioÌ„ now it euer did so And if it euer did rely vpon tradition it must needes haue maintained the same doctrine from Christ's time to ours for nether could anie former age deliuer anie thing contrarie to what they had receiued vpon this principle nor we mistake what they deliuered so that nothing contrarie to the first receiued doctrine can be admitted This yet me thinke's waÌ„teth To shew that the present Roman church rely's vpon tradition which I confesse to me is euident at least that what soeuer we haue receiued froÌ„ our forefathers as comming by-hand to hand from Christ that we reuerence and receiue all such pointes as being necessarie to be belieued Only I haue one scruple wherein I must craue your helpe And it is Whether this rule of traditioÌ„ which you giue to be so constantly held to be the rule of faith whether I saie it be so admitted of by all Catholikes or no for I feare the varietie of contrarie opinions which I heare are amoÌ„gst our learned men will preiudice your argumeÌ„s Wherefore I could wish you woud shew me §. 9 That the dissention of Catholike Doctor concerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of Tradition FOr I am tould how true I know not that some of our Deuines mantaine that in the person of the Pope reside's the rule of faith by a singular guift and priuiledge bestowed vpon S. Peeter and his successors And this so rigorously that no Generall Councell no not although the Pope's Legats be present and confirme it is of force to oblige â—â— of faiht vntill the personall confirmation of his Holinesse be obtained Others they saie esteeme the Councell aboue the Pope and so doe not hold the Pope's approbation of a Councell to be necessarie but that this rule of faith reside's in the Councell Others I heare to make all safe ioyne both in one and nether admit the Councell without the Pope not the Pope without the Councell to breede anie obligation of faith And farther I heare that amongst these Deuines of what opinion soeuer they be touching the subiect in which this rule or highest authoritie doth reside there be some which thinke that not anie new doctrine or position can be broached or proposed as certaine and as an article of faith by what authoritie soeuer vnlesse that doctrine was esteemed certaine before and euer belieued as such Yet I am tould there be manie who mantaine and â—ouch that this highest authoritie of the church wheresoeuer it be may and can define points of doctrine not
shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how §. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and
take much better I shall profit more and you will be in lesse danger to loosâ— your labour Vncle. Well cozen seing you are vnwilling of that discourse I will not trouble you therewith vpon condition that after twelftide you will not faille to come to me with preparation to receiue that doome which I shall laye vpon you for your christmasse trespasses In the interim I conceiue nothing more fitting then to informe you of the cheefest and most important affaire that you can haue vpon earth You know you haue beene borne and bred a catholike And you know it is their beliefe and tenent that all wee catholikes are obliged to venter life and fortunes for the profession of our faith Is it not then a great 〈◊〉 for a catholike gentleman to know full well how to gouerne his temporall estate till his grounds breede his catell sollicite his suits in law and menage all his terrestriall affaires and not knowe Why in such an occasion he ought to hazard yea and if neede be to loose and cast all awaye in the verie sight of his lamenting friends some vpbraiding and some condemning his action as foolish and indiscreete Nephew I pray vncle doe not laye so hard a censure vpoÌ„ me nor thinke me so ignorant of those things with out the knowledge where of I cannot be a catholike And you know wee cannot be admitted to the Sacraments nor can we be esteemed and reputed catholikes vnlesse we belieue that the reward we expect in heauen is farr beyond the pleasures of this world And truly considering what Christ Iesûs hath done and suffered for vs it were most base and vnworthie of a gratefull soule to feare to yeild vp life and goods when it is for his honnor and glorie Nor doe I thinke that more violent and efficacious reasons and motiues can be giuen to a noble haâ—t then these I coÌ„fesse if you would search into the metaphysicall grounds and principles of these truths I should perhaps light short of giuing a full accounte but my age and naturall vnstedfastnesse pleade my excuse as yet peraduenture when I grow elder I may proue more bookish and then turne the scripture and fathers and so become able to giue a more sollide accompte of our tenents but as yet this is not to be expected at my hands Vncle. Feare not cozen anie hard measure from me Who loue you so tenderly nether is that the point I entended to deliuer vnto you But sithence the greatter part of your kinred are of a different beliefe from you I desire to enable you to giue them satisfaction why you adhere so strongly to the Catholike partie as to hazard your owne and posteritie's wellfare for the maintenaÌ„ce of your faith and profession Nether am I ignoraÌ„t of your youthfull disposition and therefore Will I abstaine from misticall and sublime metaphysikes and only or at least cheefely make vse of what you know alreadie and what common sense and ordinarie naturall reason is able to performe wherefore to make the first breach I praye tell me cozeÌ„ what answere would you giue to a neere friend Whâ— should blame you for ruining your estate in the defence and maintenance of a position which is against the iudgment of your kinred friends countrie and state Nephew I would laye opeÌ„ vnto him how that our church and our doctrine hath beene euer preached and taught from Christ's time in all countries of the world what abuÌ„dance of holy martyres and learned men wee haue had how all christian nations haue beene conuerted by vs and such like motiues which are able to secure anie Wise man from doubting and must needes conuince the truth to be on our side our Aduersaries being but vpstarts of an hundreth yeares old Which if anie should coÌ„test and denye these things to be true I Would offer to produce men Who should proue and iustifie all I said against anie Doctor he should bring Vncle. Verie well bur if your friend reply that they willingly coÌ„fesse these things haue beene done by the common Ancestours of both Catholikes and ProtestaÌ„ts which were the true church but manie errours by litle and litle haue encroached and crept in amongst theÌ„ which wheÌ„ they were discouered those who now adhere to the RomaÌ„ church would not acknowledge but through obstinacie and desire of soueraigntie brake communion And farther that these diuisions are not truly diuisions in Religion but in opinion so that both sides remaine still parts of the true church though so much traÌ„sported by their first heates and passions as that causelesly they denye communion one to the other And saie's he if you looke in to the pointes of these diuisioÌ„s they are but such as be in the Roman church it selfe betwixt Thomists and Scotists Dominicans and Iesuits who proceede so farr as to charge one an other with Pelagianisme and Caluinisme which neuerthelesse doth not make different churches euen by the Catholikes owne confession And why then should the Protestants be of an other church then the Catholikes are of What would you answere to this Nephew I am not so ignoraÌ„t but I see well enough that all manner of differences ought not to make a breach in churches Wâ— diffâ—ces Reliâ— maâ— schâ— and yet that some may For I see men goe to law and haue quarells and both partyes not only tollerated in the in the common wealth but held good meÌ„bers of it And yet others I see punished for their quarells and contentions And if I doe not mistake the reason of this disparitie is that as long as these quarells are betwixt priuate meÌ„ so long they are suffered and borne withall but if once the common wealth take part with one side giuing iudgmeÌ„t in the cause disputed and thereby interesse it self in the busines if then the other side yeild not it is iustly accounted punishable and an euill member of the commonwealth And in deede thus to disagree vnder a head or rule which can bring the disagreers to agreement is rather to agree then disagree becaus they agree in a thing to wit in a mutually acknowledged head and coÌ„mon rule which is stroÌ„ger theÌ„ the causes of their disagreemeÌ„t and therefore their disageement is only for a time vntill that head and rule haue a conuenient and fitt opportunitie to reduce the disagreers to a full and totall agreement This dayly experience teacheth vs in our owne commonwealth which hauing once giuen a finall senteÌ„ce and determinate iudgment betwixt partye and partie the suite is ended and who should disobey would be punished for contempt So likewise in the church which is a spirituall common wealth such differences as be amongst those who referre them selues to hir iudgment and acknowledge hir decisiue authoritie are and may be tollerated to what termes soeuer the partyes growe amongst them selues But such differences as trench vpon hir authoritie and are betwixt those whereof the one partye will not acknowledge hir defining power nor stand to hir
iudgment such differences I saye make Aliens and deserue to be cutt of from communion Vncle. You haue discursed well but not home at least to the second part of the replye about the pointes them selues whether they be but matters of opinion or no what saye you to that Nephew That also is euident to me to witt that the pointes disputed betwixt Catholikes and Protestants are most materiall and substaÌ„tiall ones For suppose Christ's bodie be truly and really in the Blessed Sacrament and that t' is God him self which the Priest sheweth the people to adore it suerly can be no slight offence not to giue him due honnor nor contrariewise no smale crime to adore that for God which truly is not so If Christ haue left the authoritie of gouerment to Bishops of Absolution from sinnes to Priests it is no indifferent nor pettit busines to take theÌ„ out of the church If it be Idolatrie to hoÌ„nor images praye to Saincts and the like can we thinke it no great matter whether we doe so or no seing the scripture full of so manie plagues faling vpon rhe Iewes for Idolatrie Vncle. Why cozen may not a Protestant answere you likewise that if one of the opinions controuerted betwixt Thomists and Scotists be Pelagianisme the other Caluinisme can you thinke that such pointes are of smale importance Wherefore he will tell you that all such pointes are verie hard questions graue learned and vnpassionate men on both sides and therefore what so euer the truth be in it self yet so long as God Allmightie see 's our harts to be right towards him and that we desire to doe what his law teacheth vs so farr as we are able to know it all these and the like opinions are but only materiall errors and doe not hinder vs from being good Christians Nephew Truly Vncle you haue puzled me now for vnlesse such pointes and questions doe trench vpon the churche's authoritie why should not the church beare with such opinions but so seuerely cast them out of communion ad shutt heauen gates vpon the Authours and Beginners of them Certes vnlesse there be some necefsitie why certaine pointes are to be knowne by the whole church others not I confesse I cannot answere you but I come to learne and therefore when my owne discourse reacheth not I must craue your helping hand to direct me And I shall thinke the yeare well hanselled if you make me vnderstand what pointes are to be knowne of necessitie and why but first I pray tell me §. 2 Whence proceedeth and dependeth the necessitie of knowing pointes of Religion VNCLE To sett you in the waye you must first tell me what you thinke this word necessitie doth importe so farr as it concerne's our pourpose Nephew You know I am no great claâ—ke and therefore I cannot speake of necessitie nether as a Gramarian nor as a Logician but as farr as I vnderstand and intende by my question there is two sortes of necessities the one so absolute as that the thing we desire cannot without such a meanes be anie waies gotten or doÌ„ne the other in respect of such a meanes without the which our desire cannot bee well and conueniently obtained For we commonly saie that such or such a thing cannot be done or gotten when it is extreme hard and painefull to gett it And therefore some times we call that necessarie without which our desire cannot be fullfilled but with great labour and difficultie and some times that without which it cannot absolutely be compassed Vncle. Mary cozen you neede nether Gramarian nor Logician to helpe you The necessitie of knouing pointes of faith is to be compared to a church or coÌ„panie of belieuers and not to euerie particularman nor to mende what you haue said But since you are so skilfull and that you now see what is necessarie in generall to witt the know ledge of Christian doctrine and what it is to be necessarie I will trouble you with a farther demaÌ„de giuing you first this caueat That my intention is not to examine or declare what expresse and distinct knowledge or beliefe ought euerie particular and indiuiduall man to haue whithout which he cannot possibly be saued this being a thing depending of so manie secret and vnknowne circumstances as that it seemeth to be specialy reserued as only befitting God's infinite wisdome and deuine iustice though some times a prudent man may shrodly guesse and in a possible supposition of a particular man's dying without repentance in a positiue and wilfull contradicting beliefe to the doctrine of the Catholike church it would be no breach of charitie to conclude his daÌ„nation Yet at this present we will only speake of the necessitie of knowing and belieuing seuerall controuerted pointes of Christian doctrine in respect of a church or coÌ„panie of professed Christians in coÌ„mon and not as the knowledge thereof is necessarie to euerie particular man Now therefore tell me what is the end for which this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie Nephew How be knowledge of Christian doctrine cometh to be nessarie to saluation That I suppose no man doubteh but t' is heauen or in more learned termes the sight or true and proper knowledge of Allmightie God who being the cause and Creator of All things he that clearely see 's and truâ—y know's him will see and know all other things in him which all together fall so farr short of giuing such content as is taken by seeing him that the sight of him is only accompted Blisse and the sight of all the rest is but a retenue and conuenience of that first and cheefe sight which of it self alone is our essentiall Happinesse Vncle. This I confesse cozen is both verie true and verie well said of you but yet I must haue an other answere for sure you haue ouer skipp't some thing What connection is there I pray betwixt the knowledge of Christian doctrine and seeing of Allmightie God Some thing I saie must of necessitie be betwixt them for which what soeuer it be the knowledge of Christian doctrine will be more immediately necessarie Which if you can tell me what it is we shall thereby more easily discouer and conceiue what and how farr this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie for vs. Nephew Why vncle you know I haue beene taught no farther then to know what I ought to belieue and doe and that in belieuing and doeing so I shall come to heauen Vncle. And were you not taught that the commandements were resumed and coÌ„prehended in two to wit in the loue of God and of your neighour Nephew Yes that I was but what that appertaine's to your question that I vnderstand not vnlesse peraduenture your meaning be that the accomplishment of these two lawes is the immediate stepp to our Blisse Which as I see t' is verie likely yet doe I not fully conceiue why it should be so vnlesse heaueÌ„ goe by wishing whereas I haue still beene taught it goe's by
waywardnesse or carelessenesse they will not looke after it Suerly I cannot see but t' is only to the increase of their damnation Like vnto an ambitious man who whilest he is yet a farr of from the honnour which he aspire's vnto he can beare it patiently but if once he come to a faire possibilitie and haue it as it were in his hand ô Then if he misse it he is incapable of all comfort and consolation and thinke's him selfe the most vnhappy and vnfortunate man in the word So I conceiue that when a soule is out of hir bodie and come's to see how easily she might haue attained to that eternall Blisse and Happinesse where vnto she was ordained and that through hir owne neglect and carelessenesse she is now to be euerlastingly depriued thereof ô God! Vncle how infinitely will she be greeued how she will curse hir selfe and thereby increase hir paine and miserie Vncle. You saie well cozen Can you doubt therefore or can a Christian thinke but t' is a pointe of great necessitie to man Kynde If there be anie order established by Christ Iesus in his church to make men embrace accepte and poursue those facile meanes to saluation that they know and belieue it Can a man of common sense and iudgment immagine chat this is not a pointe of maine importance Or that who disagree's about this position doth only disagree in matter of opinion wherein each one may hold what he pleaseth and not in a matter substantially and fundamently necessarie to saluation Nephew I confesse Vncle when I coÌ„sidere the frailtie of man and see how easily and ordinarily he is withdrawne from willing and following the meanes of his beatitude by the least terrestriall sensuall and momeÌ„tarie pleasure it where madnesse in me to belieue that supposing there be anie such order established by Christ in his church to incite and prouoke men to accepte and practize these sauing meanes it were I saie madnesse not to thinke the knowledge and beliefe of such an order to be one of the most important and necessarie pointes of christian doctrine Vncle. Remember then cozen the three stepps or degrees we talked of before of knowing esteeming and poursuing anie good And you will finde that for the first it is necessarie the truth of Christian doctrine be conserued and often inculcated in to the harts and mindes of Christians for the second that those who are to doe this haue such qualities as wil giue them credit and make men belieue them and for the third that there be meanes taken so farr as human nature giueth leaue to cutt of all such impediments as hinder men from preferring eternall good before the temporall teÌ„ptations and sensuall pleasures of this life The first of these conditions requireth that there be men appointed to haue care of the people by instructing and often putting them in minde of Christian doctrine Which if Christ haue done t' is euideÌ„t that whosoeuer seeketh to change his order and appointment doth not quarell vpon a sliglt pointe but vpon a most waightie and necessarie one Nephew I see well that who seeketh to distroye such an order established by Christ playe's with his church as Esope's wolues played with the sheepe offering them prey vpon condition they would deliuer vp their doggs vnto them which being done they slew and preyed vpon the sheepe And me thinke's common sense telleth me there cannot be a pointe in all ChristiaÌ„ doctrine of greatter importance then this For when I considere why treason is the greattest offence that can be committed in a common wealth I see t' is because no law can subsiste and hold without guardes and lookers to it so that who striketh at these guardes in a common wealth of what nature so euer it be striketh at the verie essentiall forme of it at all the lawes and at all what so euer doth conserue the peace and libertie of the whole people and multitude where vpoÌ„ the common wealth doth subsiste Wherefore t' is euident by naturall reason that who seeketh to remoue and abolish those whom God hath plaâ—ed to guarde his church striketh at the totall ruine thereof Vncle. T' is true and therefore you maie inferre that questioÌ„s of the Pope's authoritie ouer Bishopps of Bishopps authoritie ouer Priests and of Priests authoritie ouer the laietie are of no smale moment And that who goe's about to distroye this Hierarchie aymeth at no lesse then the vtter ouerthrow of Religion and ruine of the church planted by Christ Iesus with so much sweate and blood and espoused so dearely vnto him with his sacred promises These are the Angells to whoÌ„ God hath trusted and committed the charge of his flocke These are they by whose continuall succession we conuince the perpetuitie of the Catholike church These are the men who when anie new Blasphemie arriseth meete in Councells to giue testimonie to the doctrine of Christ euer dwelling in the harts of the faithfull and thereby crush the serpeni's head These are they who in their wisdomes may and ought enacte lawes and Canons to Christ's flocke and correct abuses creeping in both in discipline and moralitie leauing still vntouched Christ's sacred institutions And therefore who seeketh to extirpate or infringe this authoritie in the church setteth his axe at the roote of faith and vertue by which the church of Christ doth subsiste Nay euen in schismaticall churches the wiser and more learned sort of men haue euer detested and abhorred the confused Anarchie of braine-sicke Puritants And t' is said that wise state's men doe vehemently suspect and haue iust cause to suppresse all Anâ—y-Hierarchists Nephew Certainely no prudent and moderate man can doubt of the importance of this pointe And me thinke's vncle these zealous societies doe to the mainteners of this Hierarchie as Diogenes did to Plato scorning his vanitie with a farr greater pride for whilest they crye out against the pride of those who seeke these dignities established by Christ in his church they discouer a farr greater pride in them selues by endeauoring to distroy so sacred an institution that they them selues may vsurpe the power and place But to the second degree and condition of the diuision you made doe you thinke §. 4 That the administration of the sacraments by the Hierarchie is of such great necessitie VNCLE How saie you cozen what power preeminencie and qualities doe you thinke are necessarie for these guardes and teachers of Christ's law and doctrine to the end that the people may conceite such things as they tell them and thinke them to be of moment for surely the most part of men haue neede of all the helpes that may be to eleuate and raise their mindes to celestiall cogitations Nephew I see well enough that such men must needes haue credit with the people and ought not only to be accounted wise and good men but should be also esteemed wiser and better then the laietie for I haue heard the Prophet's curse cited sicut
populus sic Sacerdos But this me thinke's should not touch vpon anie necessarie pointe of faith seeing it depende's on their particular liues and imployments which are knowne by sense and experience and not by anie tradition from our forefathers Vncle. You are mistaken cozen for although t' is true that the clergie's euill liues may disgrace the motiues of reuerence bestowed vpon theÌ„ by Christ Iesus yet if their liues be but tollerable Christ may haue giuen them such eminent power and dignitie as that they will not want that reuerence and respect which is fitt and conformable to the function and profession wherevnto he hath caled them And certes not with out necessities if we considere the credulitie and obedience which are required at the people's hands Credulitie of things beyond and aboue nature nay beyond all the fables be it spoken with respect that euer man inuented ObedieÌ„ce of hazarding liues and fortunes nay of entirely ruining them selues and their posteritie in respect of this world in such cases as these instructors shall tell them that the law of God commande's it and require's it Wherefore as Kings and Magistrates finde by experience that Pompes and Ceremonies and the reseruing of certaine actions and creations to them selues doe breede in their subiects yea and in strangers too honour and respect and therefore are verie carefull how they imparte and communicate them still keeping to them selues alone some Regall priuileges and prerogatiues So likewise Christ Iesus not vnmindefull of his Ministers left them and to them only the churche's Pompes and solemnities but specially the Sacraments to giue them credit and authoritie thereby To Bishops the giuing of the Holy Ghost or Confirmation Which is a continuance of the Mission of the third person of the holy Trinitie in the first Christian Pentecoste and therefore who slight's Confirmation slight's that MissioÌ„ and the coÌ„secrating of Priests Why Priests are to be honnored To Priests the rest of the Sacraments except Baptisme which by reason of the people's necessitie could not conuenieÌ„tly be reserued to Priests only whereof there were to be but few But cheefely he gaue them charge of the Bloudilesse sacrifice of his owne bodie and the power of remitting sinnes whereon is prinpally grounded and subsiste's the reuerence due vnto the church of God The one being a priuilege beyond man's inueÌ„tion and such an one as if all the learned clarkes that euer liued since the begining of the world should haue studied to raise aduance and magnifie some one istate of men to the highest ptch of Reuerence and Eminencie that could be imagined they could neuer without speciall light froÌ„ heauë haue thouht of anie thing comparable to this And yet so adapted to the secrets of nature that who should diue in to hir mysteries would streight at the first proposing of it acknowledge it to be true because a thing so hidden in the depth of nature's bowels could not be inuented and applyed in this manner by anie but the Maister of nature it self The other being so mightie a power ouer man's nature and so extremely vsefull to mankinde for their helpe and directioÌ„ to eternall Blisse that nether in respect of the awe which it strike's in to their subiects nor in respect of the profit which being conuenienieÌ„tly vsed resulteth from it there is nothing in this world anie waye estimable in comparison thereof What thinke you then cozen who seeketh to take awaye the reall presence of Christ's bodie in the B Sacrament and the power of Absoluing sinnes doth he quarell vpon trifles Be not these pointes which we hold as true and as certaine and vpon the same groundes as we doe the Trinitie and Incarnation of maine consequence and importaÌ„ce And doth not he shake the fundameÌ„tal Basis and cheefe cornerstone of the churche's building who take's awaye this power and authoritie froÌ„ hir iudges and ministers whereby they were so reuerenced and honnored as that they were belieued and obeyed And finally be these questioÌ„s to be left indifferent to euerie idle braine and priuate phansie to thinke and practize what he please's Nephew I must needes confesse I neuer considered thus much before for truly I see that the Administration of the Sacraments are necessarie for this end thoe I haue heard the Sacraments are necessarie for manie other ends But now I easily conceiue that if the clergie be not of credit it cannot haue the effect which it was made and ordained for and if it hath not it's effect it causeth not the keeping of Christ's law and if Christ's law be not kept there is no saluation So that t' is euident the Clergie needeth the greattest proppes and meanes of credit and reuerence that can be had And surely what common wealth soeuer highly esteeme's of God's law and Christian doctrine would wish the Clergie these verie qualities if they had them not allreadie Wherefore I wonder not that the Puritants who mainely oppose Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie doe fo hate and deteste the doctrine of the B. Sacrament because they thinke all Poperie is built vpoÌ„ that great sacrifice And I remember when I was in France I perceiued that going to Masse was hâ—ld the cheefe distinctiue signe and action betwixt a Catholike and a Caluinist So that considering these supernaturall and neuer sufficieÌ„tly honnored qualities of Priests I cesily belieue the storie which is tould of S. Francis that he said if he should meete a Priest and an Angell he would first salute the Biest Vncle. You saie well and surely were all Priest's liues such as did not partly disgrace theses guiftes bestowed vpon them I doubt not but Kings would laye their crownes and scepters at their feete and weare their swords at their deuotion which antiquitie telleth vs haith bene done and practized Yea those Tribunall's and that temporall power and iurisdictioÌ„ concerning which the clergie doth nowe perhaps too much contende with the laietie were at the first forced vpoÌ„ holy Bishops against their wills ether by particular men's pretie and agreement or by the Emperour's commands The world then thinking him vnworthie to liue that would not condemne him selfe if the Bishop iudged against him And both antiently in S. Hugh of Lincolne and lately in S. Charles of Milan the Christian world hath seene how great a power the Reuerence of a Bishop hath euen in respect of Kings when his life corresponde's and seconde's his Dignitie Nephew But I pray vncle doe you thinke that the greatest necessitie 〈◊〉 the Sacraments doth consist in this that by the reseruation of their administration to the clergie the clergie's authoritie might be more exalted and fitter to serue the church I haue heard other reasons preferred before this and therefore me thinke's you should more insist vpon that necessitie which in it self is the greatest and most forcible then vpon a lesser Vncle. Why cozen I doe not intende to alledge all the reasons wherefore the SacrameÌ„ts are necessarie but only some forcible one whereby it may
innouation of this kinde because where there is no euidence the case ought to be putt to iudgment and supreme iudgment being alreadie knowne and giuen as in our case there is no farther place for iudgment and therefore only euidence can be heard Now this euidence ether is so great as that there neede 's no skill to conceiue and vnderstand it and then the laietie may be admitted as Iudges Or else the Emminence of the Introducer is such as that a pointe may be euident to him and yet not to the greatest part of the Clergie who are the naturall iudges of this cause Wherefore euerie Innouator must of necessitie pretende one of these two The first he cannot without charging the whole Clergie of peruerse and will full opposition and contradiction of the knowne truth and so plainely knowne that euerie man see 's it at the first opening and proposing of it Which whether it was euer done or is possible to be done I leaue it to the iudgmeÌ„t of anie indifferent man The second cannot anie waie belong to the ignorant and vnskillfull people And therefore the Innouator must in such a case sâ—eke out the most learned of the Clergie and to them propose his reasons but must not in anie case publish his science to the vulgar ignorant whom we suppose vncapable of it for feare of sedition and faction And in this case as perhapps this pointe of doctrine may be necessarie or at least conuenient for the higher orders of the Clergie so likewise it cannot be necessarie for the vulgar people sithence we suppose them incapable of it And therefore this â—mineÌ„t introducer must neuer mâ—ke it common to the laietie much lesse appeale from the Clergie to them And thus you see that all controuersies in Religion must in be remitted to the iudgment of the Clergie that is in Catholike language to an oecumenicall Councell Nephew Me thinke's vncle I could obiect one thing against your discourse to witt that t' is not in man's libertie to thinke or iudge what he will of anie positioÌ„ such an act being a naturall operation and therefore that no man ought to be forced to belieue this oâ— that And to saie the truth what can I thinke whether the great Turke be a talle or low man whether the number of the starrs be odd or euen if my life laid on 't I could not thinke ether part Vncle. I cozen but if the great Turke 's true statua were in westminster and that for going thither you might know his height or that the true number of the starrs were sett downe in an Almanacke which you might buy for a groate I belieue if your life laid on 't you would easily be resolued to thinke the truth Nephew Mary that 's true but then I were not forced to thinke or iudge one part but only to seeke out the truth and so come naturally to thinke it Vncle. Why then likewise if the church commande you to thinke and belieue that which by seeking you may easily come to know not shee but you are to blame if you doe not belieue what she commande's And if hir authoritie be greater then anie argument which can be brought to the contrarie and greater then the most part of the reasons where vpoÌ„ you build all the beliefs which gouerne your life and actioÌ„s may you not securely belieue what she belieue's Or if you please doe but seeke out the motiues which make's the church hir selfe belieue what she teacheth and you will easily belieue with hir But if you will not attende to the meanes which would make you know and belieue the truth is it not fitting you should be forced to your owne good as fooles and vitious men are to follow reason Some men you know doe things by force which otherwise they would neuer doe And as doggs abstaine from good bitts for feare of beating so passionate men come now and then to reason for feare or punishment Nephew T is true a passionat man doth neuer see reason and yet thinke's all other men vnreasonable his passioÌ„ euer making him iudge amisse And therefore truly I doe not see why men should not be punished for their passions and so be forced to leaue theÌ„ Vncle. If that be so cozen you will finde that your argument hath a greater extent then you are aware of For if you considere how few there be that are not caried awaie with passion or interest and how secretly these dispositioÌ„s lye hidd in the mindes and actions euen of the best men And then looke into the nature of our soule and see that nothing but euidence can stroÌ„gly moue and draw hir of it self or by it's owne force you will plainely perceiue that all opinion is generally grounded vpon passion and interest and therefore according to your argument all false opinions should be corrected Nephew I thinke in deede there 's a great difference betwixt disputing wildly to and fro with arguments on both sides which most men vse and taking knowne and agreed principles and proceeding vpon them to drawe forth a long threed of science as me thinke's your manner is For I conceiue that if this methode were strickely obserued men would attaine to farre more knowledge in things necessarie to our well being and to a greater Eminence in profitable curiosities Vncle. Howsoeuer cozen I hope you now perceiue that this pointe hath resolued all controuersies For if all disputs betwixt vs and others of a different communion be in matters subiect to iudgment and that there caÌ„ be no higher iudgment vpon earth for the resolution of such difficulties then of a Generall Councell And that we doe not refuse communion to anie man but for matters thus resolued it euidently followe's that all questions betwixt vs and what church soeuer of different communion are alreadie past iudgment and consequently past dispute For what opinion I pray can you haue of those who will not admitte nor be content with anie iudgment which God hath left vpon earth for such matters as they theÌ„selues call in doubt I thinke both common sense and naturall reason will condemne them But lett me aske you one question farther Suppose that some thing be ordered in the church of God according to the iudgment and discretion of those to whom God hath giuen the power of Gouerment and iudgment in such matters which perhapps of it selfe might be otherwise ordered without anie preiudice to the church but they thought this waie the fittest now come's others to whom this charge is not committed and saie t' is ordered amisse requiring it may be altered whether doe you thinke that in this case this order ought to be changed vpon their demande and proposition Nephew If those controwlers can shew an error in the order theÌ„ me thinke's it were fitting to change it but if not then I should absolutly condemne them of disobedience and schsime if they should perseuere to stand out And he that should excuse them were
litle fade's and dye's For the second subsisting and cōtinuing multitude we see in all communities or common wealths there is a head common Councell or highest authoritie wherevnto all the members repaire in necessitie and by their connection therewith they receiue securitie life and motion in that morall kinde of being euerie man doing his dutie according to the lawes of that communitie and the head or supreme authoritie prouiding for the obseruance of the lawes in generall and particularly for the direction of such cases as the lawes reach not vnto So that if you take awaie this head or common wisdome the multitude must of necessitie be short liued and quickly come to ruine Hence it is euident to common sense and naturall reason that the church of Christ being a multitude ordained to subsiste and continew must not only haue the vnitie of similitude and be one by the similitude of actions which Christ hath prescribed and all Christians practize but also by the vnitie of connection to some common head and supreme Councell whereby it may conserue it selfe and keepe it's subiects in the continuance of the law of Christ and in the practize of those actions which he hath commanded And here you may note that were this law naturall there needed no more to be of the church then to be a member of this communitie The Want of the true rule of faith exclude's from the church and he would be out of it who should not participate of the two vnities But our Christian law being aboue nature and cōsequētly not to be learned by man's iudgmēt but by authoritie that is by receiuing it from Christ those who doe not receiue it by that meanes and rule by which Christ hath ordained it shall be receiued are not truly of this communitie whatsoeuer be their materiall beliefe and opinion Wherefore you are to considere farther that this Receipte of Christ's law and doctrine may haue beene ordained by Christ himself to be effected two seuerall waies First by word of mouth that is that this law and doctrine should be vocally taught and deliuered from hand to hand from father to sonne to the world's end secondly by writing Now therefore if Christ haue ordained both these waies who should not accept of them both is not truly and properly a Christiā nor consequently of the Christian communitie If Christ haue only instituted tradition to be the meanes and rule of the receite of his law and doctrine and hath giuen scripture only for superabundant instruction and consolation then who should reiect tradition and flye to the scripture making it his only rule and meanes of receiuing Christ's law and doctrine were not truly and properly a Christian nor of the Christian communitie Lastly if Christ haue ordained scripture alone to be this rule and meanes then who cleaueth to Tradition is not truly a Christian The resolution of this question doth properly belong to the Gouernors of the church who if they haue the true rule their subiects are safe if not their subiects soules will be required at their hands by whom they perish But I will take an other time to giue you a full resolution of this maine difficultie Three things are required to make a legitimate Christiā In the interim you may inferre out of this discourse to our present pourpose that three things are required to make one a legitimate Christian and such an one as euerie Christian ought to bee if he will be truly one of the communitie and church of Christ Though perhaps one may be in some sorte a Christiā and goe to heauen too by an exttaordinarie meanes without hauing all these three subsequent dispositions and qualities The first is that he belieue and practize the law of God which in respect of a particular man is but short and t' is in a word to loue God aboue all things The second is that he be vnited to the multitude of true Christians that is that he depende of the Gouerment left and instituted by Christ here vpon earth And for this pointe or qualitie as I doubt not but some one or few may be saued without it yea peraduenture with an opposition to it in fact through ignorance so his hart be true and without passion yet to thinke this a common ordinarie and high waie to saluation and that t' is as indifferent to liue from vnder this Gouerment setled by Christ as vnder it were ridiculous and absurde in common sense and reasō and in deede it were to annultate Christ's coming and make his law voide and fruitlesse And if you desire to conceiue the necessitie of this pointe more fully doe but reflect and considere the nature of all ciuill and politicall commonwealths wherein if anie member doe not liue vnder the Gouernors and depende of the Magistrats established by the highest power and authoritie thereof he cannot be truly and properly said to be a part and member of that communitie nor can he assuredly know ordinarily speaking nor constantly performe the law and orders of it The third pointe is that this communitie whereof euerie particular Christiā is to be a share and member hath the true rule and meanes to know and obserue the law of Christ And it is necessarie that this pointe be more exactly knowne by those who liue amongst diuersitie of opinions in this matter For where there appeares learned and morally good mē taking parts in this question a priuat man seeme's to haue iust reasō to doubt whether side he shall take for his guide and therefore this pointe well dicussed amōgst such giue 's a man full and generall satisfaction for his whole beliefe and practize And these two last pointes cleere one the other for that communitie which hath the true meanes of the receipte of Christ's law and doctrine that is the true rule of faith must of necessitie be it of and in which we are to seeke and shall finde Christ's law And contrariewise if we finde the true communitie we are sure it hath the true rule of knowing Christ's law and doctrine Hence it is that the Catholike church euer pressed hir Aduersaries with two speciall arguments 1. with the noueltie of their church shewing that none of them euer had a continuall visible succession 2. that they receiue not their opinions from their Ancestors and by them from Christ but that they were inuented at such a time against the receiued tenet of the church in that time that is traditiō for the church and noueltie of doctrine in hir Aduersaries And now I thinke you see the resolution of our first question Nephew I thinke I doe and t' is if I be not deceaued that such as professe to keepe the law of Christ though in effect they doe not performe it are to be accounted of the church and consequently sinners are not to be excluded so long as they submitte them selues to the churche's Gouerment established by Christ And on the other side though diuers
How Extreme vnctioÌ„ doth moderate the feare of death The assistance which vertuous parish Priests afford to the pore languishing patient by the Administration of this Sacrament comforting him and praying for him according to S. Iames his commande and the Churche's practize Iac. 5. must needes be of great consequence in such an Exigent Nay what comfort so litle which in this periode of distresse and last moment of death's agonie is not great It was not surely without mysterie said a great paterne of perfection euen in our age that our sauiour Iesus Christ would haue his Apostles accompanie him and praie with him in that dolerous Agonie which he passed in the garden of Gethsemani Gregorie Lopes and how much he desired it doth sufficiently appeare by his twice going to them to see how they performed their charge and by his exprobration to S. Peeter Now there resteth only to seeke a remedie for a conscience loaden with sinne which how great a torture it is of it selfe you may easily jmagine by the expression and apprehension which the heathens had of it who were persuaded that Diuills or furies did stand continually with burning torches before wicked men's eyes and that the Ghosts of murdered persons did haunt the murtherers vntill they brought them to madnesse or some mischeefe HoW coÌ„fession is grouÌ„ded in nature and What coÌ„fort it bring 's to a sinner And we are taught both by nature and experieÌ„ce that the best and oÌ„ly remedie to a soule loaden with a secret griefe is to disclose hir case and the cause thereof to some faithfull friend who may aftord hir comfort and assistance For this end did our sauiour Iesus Christ institute the SacrameÌ„t of Penance with the priuiledge of silence not violable at anie rate no nor God nor man's law can exact in anie case the reuealing of this secret what damage so euer where to come of it Which let but anie vnpartiall and vnderstanding maÌ„ considere and then let him iudge of what profit and commoditie it is to a multitude of men not rained downe from heauen impeccable but framed like scarabees of the duÌ„g of the earth and thereby full-of imperfection and weaknesse to haue by order of law some selected persons of learning and discretion vnquestionable of what they shall heare and extremely to be punished if they speake the least word of what shall come to their knowledge by this meanes sett to comfort and direct them for the amendment of their liues and on whom they may confidently relye for Counsell and open the truth of their cause He knowe's not what a friend is worth who knowe's not how great a benefit this is Nephew I easily belieue and I thinke euerie indifferent man must needes belieue the same that the practize and execution of this pointe alone would make so great a change in the people's behauiour if it were as well performed as it may and ought to be that hence only it would be cleere and euident that Religion to be better in which this were practized and that the worse which refused it But I wonder vncle that all this while you haue said nothing of that famous question of coÌ„municating vnder both kindes which so manie verie moderate Protestants stand vpon as a cheefe stumbling blocke which offendeth them Vncle. That 's a point nephew in which the affirmatiue part belonge's to them Why coÌ„municating vnder both kindes was not commaÌ„ded And therefore it behoue's them to shew the vtilitie or necessitie of communicating in both-kindes Which if they cannot doe and that we know God giue 's vs no laws but for our good and profit a discteete man will easily and may iustly presume that Almightie God neuer coÌ„manded it but left it to discretion And for them to bring anie euident proofe of a positiue commande sithence the contrarie hath beene practized in some churches and to some persons as children in all ages I thinke it neuer was nor can be done These points are sufficient to shew that it is not out of obstinacie or vaine glorie that the Catholike church mantaine's hir positions and forbidde's communion to Protestants but forced therevnto by great necessitie and true grounds of Gouerment without which no communitie can subsiste For if euerie pointe may be thus shewed to be of no smale importance for the increase of vertue as it may be according as you see by these which we haue talked of how much more doth the Bulke of all together make a schisme deseruing to be lopped from the tree of life But cheefely that headstrong taking the bitt in the teeth and that vnbridled ranging in matters of consequence without anie respect and awe of the power and authoritie ordained by Iesus Christ or anie reuerence to their fore fathers or present Gouerment the readie waie and common maxime of all sedition and rebellion in what communitie or coÌ„mon wealth soeuer ether spirituall or temporall which we see doe ordinarily follow when such Archi-reuolters beginne to feele â—heir partie strong Nephew This your last consequeÌ„ce touche's me thinkes a point which I haue a great desire to heare well discussed to witt of the Pope's authoritie which you know our Protestants pretende to be a great inconuenience in all politicall Gouerment Vncle. The old phrase permitte's not the shoemaker to iudge of anie thing aboue the shooe nor am I willing to medle in this pointe or determine what is conuenient or inconuenient of the Pope's authoritie in respect of secular Gouerments For being not skillfull in this matter and discoursing only as you see by common sense I might perhapps offende though blamelesse in ventering beyond my skill which would be imputed to the weakenesse of my cause Only this I know I must and will honor the Pope as S. Peeter's successor and head of Christ his church vpon earth Which authoritie I am sure was neuer instituted nor doth it tende of it 's owne nature to the detriment or preiudice of anie lawfull Gouerment of what qualitie soeuer And if those were present who perhapps as ignorant as my self in the rules of Gouerment obiect so manie things against this authoritie I durst vnder take to answere and satisfie them all Nephew Though you will not be pleased to medle in this pointe yet can you not refuse to teach me how to answere the ordinarie obiectioÌ„s which are made against our ReligioÌ„ Which if I could sollidly performe I should make it cleere and euident §. 12 That good institutions are not to be giuen ouer for smale inconueniences that the abuses are to be mended not the things taken awaie and therefore that the partie which broke communion is to returne to the other Wherefore I pray vncle tell me what shall I saie to them who cast in our teeth that the Catholike Clergie's being vnmarried fille's the world with whoredome and Adultery That the riches of the Clergie depriue's commoÌ„ wealths of the vse of a great part of their Countrie by
reason of their immunities That the Clergie's strength is able to baÌ„die now and then against the state Nay that a Religions order especially such an one as hath great power ouer it's subiects is able and not vnpractized to bandie and make good it's part against both church and state with no smale damage and daÌ„ger to theÌ„ both if it they were not preuented These things must needes auerie anie state much more a schismaticall one from out Religion sitheÌ„ce we suppose them to be of necessitie Vncle. As for the Clergie's chastitie euerie one knowes we confesse t' is not a matter of necessitie by the law of Christ HoW the Clergie's chastitie and single life is conuenient Yet that t' is most fitt and conuenient I thinke no wise man can doubt For of all pleasures the carnall doth most affect sensible nature and produceth the greatest extremities of passion in man and consequently is the greatest binder of man to earthly things and the greatest hinderer froÌ„ heauenly and spirituall thoughts that nature hath placed in maÌ„ It were needlesse to tell you how vnfitt this sensuall imployment is for those men whose maine life and action ought to be in preaching and teaching celestiall and supernaturall doctrine and whose ayme euen by their function and profession is to draw people from this clodd of earth and eleuate their mindes to God and spirituall affections From wedlocke followe's the loue of wife and children 1. Cor. 7 and the necessarie cares of household which the Apostle cale's the afflictions or tribulations of the fleth And from them the Euill Gouerment of the church which ether must be hereditary or neglected the decessour euer streeuing to leaue nothing to his successour which him self can make vse of for the better prouiding of his children And lastly the verie conceite of chastitie and the sollitude or lonenesse of an vnmarried man breedeth an apprehension of the person in whom they are whereby the people are much better gouerned by such an one Nor is Celebate the cause of such disorders as truly are found in some places too frequent but the multiplication of Priests Which in deede brings this sacred function into contempt amongst the laietie Why there should be but few Priests in the church whose tutors and teachers Priests are by Christ's institution and maketh them esteemed as seruants And this also make's the Priests them selues to haue a lesse conceite of their owne dignitie and dutie whereby they become carelesse of their honour and cariage And to saie the truth considering the difficultie of chastitie in the frailtie of man's nature t' is not likely that whole multitudes of men liuing in libertie and perpetuall occasions of falling should obserue so hard a rule as is expressed by Qui potest capere capiat Mat. 19 Wherefore not the Ecclesiasticall commaÌ„de of chastitie which you see is good and necessarie for the Gouerment of the church but the multiplicatioÌ„ of Priests especially of yong and vnworthie ones ought to be taken awaie and so the scandal would cease Nephew You saie well but I haue heard that multitudes of Priests are requisite for the magnificence of the church for the conuenient hearing of Masse especially on Holy days and for the better Administration of the Sacraments and helping of both liuing and dead by the inestimable sacrifice of the Altar which causeth manie to take priesthood meerely out of deuotion Vncle. I haue heard manie saie so too but they did not considere that the necessitie of Gouerment and instructioÌ„ is the cheefe necessitie of the church and that the Clergie is made and instituted for this Gouerment hauing the administration of the SacrameÌ„ts pourposly reserued vnto them to procure them veneration and authoritie for the better performance thereof and therefore not anie one ought to be made Priest but for this end to witt for the necessitie of instruction and GouermeÌ„t And this Bishops ought to take care of nor to bestow Priesthood but where the man's creation is necessarie for his flocke and then Priests would liue better and be more honored This was the practize of the primitiue church vntill the Ambition of Deacons who had the temporalities of the church in their hands made them desire honour and so were made Priests And the like ambition I belieue was the inuentor of those faire reasons which you alledge for well may it be magnificence in a Prince to haue manie seruants but to haue manie cheefe heads and Gouernors that must needes lessen their esteeme And for hearing of Masses if the people be well ordered and gouerned few Priests will suffice nor is the inconuenience so great as the multiplicitie of Priests And the like may be said for the administration of the Sacraments and for the helping of both liuing and dead by the holy sacrifice of the Altar As for those who desire to be Priests out of deuotion I thinke their deuotioÌ„ would be more conformable to the pietie of our forefathers if they did rather â—hunne then desire Priesthood especially where there are so manie allreadie And as in my opinion there cannot be an outward worke of greater pietie and charitie then to prouide the people of fitt instructors and Gouernors nor almes better imployed then to procure this effect so contrarie wise I thinke there cannot be an acte of greater sacriledge and impietie then to order and imploye vnworthie subiects in this kinde and who soeuer out of faction friendship or carelessenesse should doe it are worse then Adulteres Murtherers or those whose sinnes crye to heauen for vengeance But this I speake only of my owne opinion Nephew Truly vncle I thinke you are in the right though peradueÌ„ture there be not manie of your minde For I see well enough that as to multiplie vnworthie judges and Gouernors in a common wealth were to ruine it so likewise to multiplie vnworthie Priests is to hazard the spirituall good of Christianitie and to make an vnworthie parish Priest is in a manner to damne the parish Vncle. For your second obiection of the Clergie's riches That the Clergie's riches are no preiudice to the teÌ„porall state though I am none of those that thinke the Clergie or anie other spirituall companie whom they affect cannot be too rich yet I see no such inconuenience in their riches but t' is easily remedied For in all Catholike countries there be meanes found out to diminish their riches and make them contribute to the necessities of the state and common wealth as fully as others in proportion though in an honorable waie as to let them haue their owne Collectors of the monies required at their hands Besides the Clergie not making anie vowe or profession of renouncing ether riches or honor and bearing the greatest charge and office in the common wealth t' is both fitting and necessarie that they haue so much wealth as is requisite for the due performance of their function as first to be out of sollicitude for
it but by the scripture which we doe not hold to be sufficient to determrne controuersies without tradition So that I haue no more to saye to you but wish you may begine this new yeare with a good night's rest which God send vs both Whether scripture alone is fit and able to decide controuersies in Religion THis Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. The Preface or introduction 2. That tradition for scripture is not of as great force as for pointes of Doctrine 3. That tradition for scripture is not more vniuersall then tradition for doctrine 4. That it is impossible the text of scripture should haue remained incorrupted 5. What vncertaintie the errors of writers and copists hath bredd in scriptures 6. What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations hath bredd in scripture 7. That the verie repeating and reciting of an others words breedeth a varietie and vncertaintie 8. The vncertaintie of EquiuocatioÌ„ which of necessitie is incident in all writings 9. That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceased 10. The vncertaintie which followeth the particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was vritten 11. That the nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting for deciding of controuersies 12. Two manners of iudging of Religion out of scripture 13. How scripture doth determine controuersies 14. what laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture 15. Of an other manner of disputing out of scripture §. 1 The Introduction VNCLE How now cozen what make's you so early this morning could you not sleepe this last night Nephew Yes indifferent well I thanke God but t' is not verie early Howsoeuer if I be trublesome I will expect your better leasure for I am come only to tell you a scrupule that I had yesternight which hath tormeÌ„ted me euer since And it is that we Catholikes who beare so great reuerence and veneration to the holy scripture receiue more of it then others write infinite volumes of commentaries vpon it as Paul's church yard can witnesse and are so exact to improue our selues I meane our learned men in the knowledge of it should neuerthelesse when wee come to ioyne in the maine point that is to the decision of controuersies in Religion seeme to fly of and recurre to other iudges though we acknowledge it to be Christ owne word and law And now I haue tould you my difficultie I will leaue you to your better imployments knowing how much you esteeme and how precious you accompt your mornings and therefore I will make bould to call for your answere an other time Vncle. Nay stay cozen God forbid I should thinke I could better imploy my time then in giuing you satisfaction in question of such importance or that you should be importune vnto me by desiring the knowledge of a thing so necessarie and so be seeming you I were to blame if I would not leaue euen my prayers to assist you in this point and perhaps an other time you will not be so earnest on it Although I must coÌ„fesse I am some what vnwilling to diue into this questioÌ„ for I see by experieÌ„ce that the one part seeketh by all meanes to destroy the authoritie of God's church and the other seemeth to lessen the power of scripture for the deciding of controuersies so that indifferent men and as yet vnsetled be left as it were without all meanes of coming to the truth How soeuer necessitie excuseth vs for were our Aduersaries able to performe what they promise that is to resolue pointes of controuersies by scripture we were worse theÌ„ beasts if we should refuse to be iudged thereby But if to stand to scripture only as they doe be but a plausible way to Atheisme and so the question will only be whether we must rely vpon a church or be Athiests for we thinke by scripture alone lefâ—t without the guard of the church nothing or at least not enough for the saluation of mankinde can be sufficiently prouued then euerie man wil see that we are forced by reasoÌ„ and Religion to make euident and knowne as farr as we caÌ„ the necessitie of relying vpon a church and to vse all our power to persuade men therevnto And if you remember we said yesternight that Christian Religion or the law of Iesus Christ cannot be learned by witt and studie but by authoritie and by receiuing it from Iesus Christ And that wee said likewise that he is no true Christian nor truly of the communitie of Christians what so euer be his materiall beliefe who doth not accept of that rule and meanes which Iesus Christ hath left and ordained for the receipt of his law and the like of him who should follow anie other rule which must needes be ether scripture or tradition or both it will therefore euiâ—â—ntly follow that ether we must be no Christians or accept and acknowledge tradition to be this rule if wee can shew that the scripture is not fitt nor hath the conditions requisite for the deciding of controuersies nor was made or left to the church for this end Nephew The greater is the necessitie of this question the more gladd am I that I haue moued it though me thinke's I my self might well see it is not fitt to make the scripture iudge of coÌ„trouersies because we finde by experience that after so manie disputations and so manie bookes written on ether side there is nothing resolued nor are we the nearer an end and therefore t' is euident that scripture alone will neuer decide and determine our quarells and disputes Vncle. Well cozen since you will haue it so our first question shall bee §. 2 Whether tradition for scripture be of as great force as it is for pointes of doctrine ANd first I pray you tell mee doe you thinke that the Apostles when they weÌ„t about the world to preach Christ Iesus carried with theÌ„ all the bookes of the ould and new Testament ether readie translated into the languages of the people whom they preached vnto or else caused them to be translated by the first Christians Nephew I neuer thought of this question before but I see well enough that they could not carie all with them for some parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach nay I a'm not assured whether anie part of the new testament was made before their dispersion from Hierusalem so that well may they haue caried the ould Testament with theÌ„ if they thought it sitting but for the new they could not if I be not mistakeÌ„ Vncle. It is verie true I will tell you therefore cozen how the authoritie of the scripture that is Now the neW Testament Was pro aga ted of the new Testament came into the church An Apostle or Disciple writing a booke or Epistle coÌ„municated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it that church coÌ„municated it to their neighbours as the worke
correction and amendment of the Bible whose complaints of the varietie of texts all the world knowes and indeede the inutilitie and discommoditie of such multiplicitie caused them all to be neglected though some thinke our vulgata editio to haue euer beene conserued Howsoeuer we may goe on with our supposition and add that of those twenty trāslatiōs now extāt euerie one is equall to anie other Let then a sentence be proposed whose nature and definition is to decide a controuersie but with this condition which ordinarily happeneth in such a case to witt that it dependeth on the proprietie of some word or on the Emphasis of some manner of speaking Is it possible that anie reasonable man should thinke that all these translations will agree in such a thing Three or fouer peraduenture may but for twentie t' is absolutly impossible And if anie one of these translations be substantially different all the rest cannot with certaintie or euidence beare it downe sithence this might be out of a different copie with which perhapps agreed more then we haue so that we shall still returne to our former non liquet And hence followeth that although a translation in the whole bulke be morally the same booke with the originall yet metaphysically and rigorously there is great diuersitie and at least such as in our case maketh all translations of the scripture vnfitt to decide cōtrouersies by them Nephew Your discourse will not only make mee beleeue what I haue heard reported S. Augustin should saie Epist Man funda cep 5. that hee would not belieue scripture vnlesse the church's authoritie moued him therevnto but I feare it tendeth to the too great weakening of the scripture which hath beene so happily planted in the church and got this supereminent authoritie which it hath to some good effect without doubt though not for the decision of controuersies and therefore you will proue to much and in seeking to destroy one errour you will bee in danger to fall into an other This I am sure of that if you should preach this doctrine at S. Antolins the people would stone you with their brasencornerd Bibles though peraduenture if they laid all their heads together they could not giue you a sufficient answere But thus much I learne now when I reflect vpon them that they haue no reason to obiect against vs our trusting of our church and Pastours for the sense and explication of the scripture whereas thē selues must needes rely vpon a douzen or twenty Parsons or Ministers if there were so manie imployed in their translation for the verie text it self whose skills or wills might be defectiue according to their owne maxime so that we rely vpon the whole church they pore people vpon what they nether thinke certaine nor infalible nor probable but as farr as they please Vncle. I will finde a time to satisfie your feares of my diminishing the scripture's authoritie and will shew you how all I haue said doth nothing preiudice the layfull and intended vse of the scripture and if I should chance to forget I pray you put mee in minde before we part For the present I will propose you an other difficultie which is §. 7 Whether the verie rehearsing and citing of an others words doe not breede varietie and vncertaintie ANd let vs suppose the writer him self play the translatour As for example that our sauiour him self hauing spoken in Hebrew or Syriake the Holy writer is to expresse his words in Greeke or Latin And farther that this which we haue said of translatiōs be as truly it is groūded in the verie nature of diuers languages and therefore vnauoidable by anie art or industrie will it not clearely followe that euen in the originall copie writtē by the Euāgelist's owne hand there is not in rigour the true and self-significant words of our sauiour but rather a comment or Paraphrase explicating and deliuering the sense thereof Nay let him haue written in the same language and let him haue set downe euerie word and sillable yet men conuersant in noting the changes of meanings in words will tell you that diuers accents in the prononciation of them the turning of the speakers head or bodie this way or that way the allusion to some person or to some precedēt discourse or the like may so change the sense of the words that they will seeme quite different in writing from what they were in speaking So that you see how like negligent men wee cōmonly vse to presse words as the proper and identicall words of our sauiour finding them registred in the Holy writt Which in rigour and exactly speaking are but in some sorte an imperfect and equiuocall paraphrase or expression of Christ's owne true words the weakenesse of mā's speach and expressiō bearing no greater exactnesse And surely all experienced men but especially disputatife schollers who finde meanes dayly to explicate the planest words of ā authour to a quite different sense will tell you that to seeke to conuince an exact truth out of bare and dead words is to put your self into a darke some and wild laborinth And to rely vpon them is to fixe the Camelions colours in the currēt of the winde or water Wherefore cozen hauing I thinke sufficiently tould you my minde concerning the text it self let vs goe farther and looke into §. 8 The vncertaintie of equiuocatiō which of necessitie is incident in all writings ANd to proceede more clearely wee will suppose for the present that there is but one authenticall copie of the scripture written in some one language and hereby abstract from all varieties of texts by translations or errours or anie such accident and meerely considere what of necessitie followes out of this that the scripture is a booke written in words of men and whether this supposed there can be anie decisiue and decretory sense euidently and certainely gathered out of it Tell me then cozen doe you thinke t' is an easie matter to decide cōtrouersies by words or why not Nephew I know words are but signes of what is in our mindes sett and ordained to that ende by the will of man wha ars words and therefore that diuers men signifying their mindes by diuers signes come to make diuers languages And I know likewise that though it bee an ordinarie thing amongst vs to hange vp a bush to signifie thereby that in the house there is wine to be sould yet peraduenture in an other coūtrye some thing else may signifie the selling of wine and a bush some other thing So may it happen that the same word in one language may signifie one thing and in an other some thing else And because I likewise see that it may so fall out that these two nations ioyne in one or haue much commerce together by vse and custome this word may come to haue two significations euen in the same language And so will breede a difficultie in whether of the two senses it is to be
decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse §. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you
euen now before it passe without controule Nephew Truly sir me thinke's you speake with reason and common sense Yet this authoritie being so great I see not Why it may not of it selfe and by it's instruments worke such an effect as that learned men vpon whose number I am to rely may not become partially affected in the iudgment of Religion and consequently the greater number be more corrupted then the lesser and so the opinion of three were to be preferred before the opinion of the seuēteene Nay in my iudgment experience tell 's vs that not euerie tenth person amongst learned Catholikes doe know the true value and force of our Aduersaries arguments but with a preoccupated dispositiō vndervalue them when perhapps they cannot giue a full and satisfactorie answere vnto them And how should it be otherwise sithence from our childhood we are taught to rely vpon the church for matters of Religion and to reiect and hate anie mā who should seeke to make a contrarie impression in vs. This being plāted in vs in our tender age and growing with nature cannot choose but make a vehement preoccupation in vs whē we come to be able to iudge of controuersies in Religion Nor is it to the pourpose whether it be fit that we haue such an impression or no for I oppose not the thing but the argument which vrge's for the greater number of learned men Vncle. And haue you not marked the like amongst Protestāts ād much more amōgst Puritants And doe you not finde that those who slight Catholike arguments are no lesse preoccupated then the Catholikes you speake of Nay if you marke it they greatest contemners of their Aduersarie's argumēts be they Catholikes or Protestants are commonly the most zealous or rather the most ignorant of the zealous So that in deede the true cause of this partialitie is ignorance and not anie prohibition which contrariwise is a great prouoker to make men doubt of their Religion For euer since our Grand mother Eue harkened to the first why did God all precepts whose reason we vnderstand not haue beene suspicious vnto vs. Tell me then I pray if you were in a shipp where there were a Pilote and his mate and some Captane who had neuer beene at sea before and in a controuersie about their iournay they fall to variance The Pilote and his Mate saying this is the waie the Captane by reports or guesses of his owne saie's that 's not the waie And therevpon the Cōpanie in the shipp take's parts whether side in this case would you iudge to be partiall Nephew T' is cleere that those who ioyne with the Captane are partiall for where the one side hath skill the other none t' is euident that if the question be of skill we ought adhere to the skilfull This I saie is euidēt if there be no particular circumstāce or speciall reason to the contrarie As in our case if the Pilote had some interest to carrie his shipp out of the waie then it were an other matter but stāding precisely in the termes of your case t' is cleere ō which side the partialitie is for the Pilote hauing skill the captaine none the Pilot's aduise were to be preferred in common sense and to side with him were wisdome Vncle. Why then who adhere's to vnskillfull iudgers in matters of Religion are partiall and who adhere's to experts in those matters are wise and rationall Wherefore if the seuenteene adhere to the Mistrisse and teacher of Religiō and the three fly from hir doth not these by this verie act make them selues partiall and those impartiall You must first know whether side goes the right waie before you can suppose ether side to be partiall and consequently the number will still preuaille as long as t' is in doubt whether side is partiall And if one side adhere to that part which was in prepossession the other plead against possession you are bound by the law of nature by the institution of all cōmunities and by commō sense to iudge the pleaders against possession to be partiall vntill they haue proued their motiō so reasonable as wil ouer balāce the great authoritie of possession which is against them Farther if you considere that Christian Religion is supernaturall that is such an one as cannot be learned but frō Almightie God to wit from the Apostles or from them whō the Apostles or their Disciples haue taught you will see that there is no disputing about Religion but only to aske what hath beene taught vs which none can tell vs but those whose life and professiō it is to teach vs that doctrine which them selues first learned to wit the Bishopps and Pastors of the church So that who doubt's of what these mē haue taught and doe teach vs must needes be ignorant of the meanes and waie of knowing Christian doctrine and passionately refuse the true ād certaine rule thereof Nephew I see myne errour and it was the same as if one should condemne a man of partialitie who keepe 's possession of his owne because he yeild's not vp the state whereof he is possessed before iudgmēt be giuē against him whereas contrariwise in the Ciuill law which I once studied a litle if one be put out of quiet possession his Aduersarie may not pleade vntill he be put in againe And sure of all cases the fowlest is to doubt in matters of Religion before one hath reason for where authoritie is plainely on the one side there none cā doubt without wronging that Authoritie vnlesse he haue a reason which doth ouer ballance it And so I am satisfied in this pointe Vncle. Take this with you nephew that generally no cōtrouersies of Religion fall out without some motiues of interest on both sides and so both sides may be suspected of partialitie but cheefely that which beginne's the change Wherefore suppose men were forbiddē to doubt that would be of litle force if once they sawe their commanders were interessed vnlesse they sawe withall that they could not mende them selues Besides in our schooles all things are caled in question which would not be suffered if it endāgered the churche's beliefe Lastly being t' is great schollers that gouerne men's iudgments if they did finde by their learning anie other sure ground of Religion then standing to the churche's authoritie and iudgment they would esteeme as much of hir Commandes and Sampson did of the Philistins shutting their gates vpon him And so wee see by experience that all truly learned ād vnpassionat mē on our side besides the motife of the churche's authoritie adhere vpon pure reason to the Catholike tenets and will protest vpon all that 's holy that they would be of the same Religiō though there were no commande finding it most conformable to reason and to the grounds of Christianitie Nephew The truth is I know not how to answere your discourse yet perhapps a Protestant would saie that all 's but probabilitie and likelihood and therefore to hazard a
most easie and most naturall conceite that man can haue to conceiue that some thing is the cause of these goods and hurtes Now man's conuersation being cheefely with one an other men naturally apprehende all things to be donne by some vnderstanding thing as they see their owne actions are So that if there were a cōpagnie of men sprung out of the earth like Cadmus his people or raised out of emitts like the Myrmidons yet would they if they were truly men within a litle while frame them selues some Religion according as by chance or some one's apprehēsion or phāsie they should conceite their goods and euills to proceede from some visible or inuisible thing Wherefore I admire not that some people adored the sunne some the starrs others some rare men from whom they had receiued in their life time great benefits imagining that euen after death they were power full and beneficiall And surely it is much more impossible that a people which once hath had some Religion should quitte forget it and come to haue none at all for these causes will be euer knocking at their harts putting them in minde and driuing them into the cōceite of some God or Gouernor if therefore the effects of perpetuall causes must be euerlasting these causes of Religion to wit effects whose causes are hidden and the good and euill which come vnto vs by them being neuer awanting t' is impossible that Religion should euer cease Vncle. And thinke you not cosen that these same causes doe as well moue those who are setled in a faith or Religion to continue without changing their once receiued beliefe as well I saie as they doe keepe them from forgetting that Religion which they are once possessed of Nephew I confesse it seeme's euident to me that the change of Religion can not come by pure negligence and sleepinesse no more then the losse of it being these warnings of nature which force vs to Religion doe also continually call vpon vs to keepe our once practized faith and credulitie vnlesse there be greater causes to countermande it which I doe not see but may be easily found some times Vncle. Peraduenture not so easily as you imagine for an Errour is a persuasion of the minde And nothing can worke vpon our vnderstanding but it self and our will who soeuer therefore will make such a persuasiō must worke vpon one of these two The will you know is moued and weilded by hopes and feares the vnderstanding by reason and authoritie How error in bred in man Whence arise three waies by which such an opinion may creepe into mē's mindes 1. by bringing more reason for it thē cā be brougth on the contrarie side 2. by the authoritie of some so great as that their verdicts are held beyond examining and 3. by the power of some whose hands are full of paines and pleasures and who can thereby moue the will which being moued can make the vnderstanding belieue what she desire's Doe you know anie other meanes Nephew Not I vncle for I see that if I should bring anie other you would reduce it to some of these three But me thinke's such an opiniō might steale vpon the church at vnawares some obscure man broaching it at the first and others accepting of it by a kinde of negligēce and indifferencie to anie opinion or by too much credulitie not distinguishing right from wrōg though I see this touche's some what vpon authoritie and so will be reduced to that mēber of your diuision Vncle. It importe's not to what member it be reduced so there be no fourth waie But I though you had learned sufficiently alreadie to exclude this for what make's more notice to be taken of anie thing then that which changeth some publicke and vniuersall practize Looke but if anie one goe through the streete's in some strang and new fashioned apparell how all staire and gaze vpon him the verie boys leaue their playe to follow him and looke at him And therefore to saie such an Innouation can be brought in without being taken notice of is as much as to saie the cause of admiration or taking notice can be set before our eyes without working it's effect Which is to saie that fire and tow should lye together without burning or a stone hang at libertie in the aire without falling downe these be impossibilities in nature and are in the racke of those things against which nature folliciteth by hi◠continuall causes of hopes and feares which made you confesse but now that negligence was not a sufficient cause to produce the change of Religion Wherefore let vs see if by anie of these three waies which I haue proposed the change of Religion can happen Nephew Nay sir I will doe you the fauour to exclude one of them to wit the waie of persuasion or by alledging more reason against the true Religion then can be brought for it for seing truths beare witnesse to one another and that the Religion we speake of is supposed to be true t' is impossible that more reason should be brought against it then for it Nor is the greatnesse of anie man's wit who should stand to maintaine the error to be feared for this error being to passe through a great part of the world t' is not credible that one man should so farr surpasse in wit the rest of the world as to put them all from their stāding without contradictiō Or that in so much time as is necessarie for the spreading of such an error into the maine of the church no man should haue wit enough if not to bring more potent argumēts for the truth atleast to finde out the weakenesse and fallacie of those which are brought against it which would be sufficient to hinder the progresse of such an error for who is in possession of an opinion must haue an insoluable reasō to put him out of it if he be wise and constant Much more those who ground their tenets vpon receiuing them from their forefathers and hould all reason insufficiēt to proue their faith because of it's supernaturalitie and therefore ought more to harken to what was deliuered thē to anie reason which may seeme to vrge the change of what is knowne to be deliuered Thus much I confesse is cleere but why the authoritie of some one or more whose words are aboue examine or the power of some who hould's the balance of good and badd of paines and pleasures may not worke an error into the church that I doe not vnderstand Vncle. You haue drawne the question from an vniuersall to a particular for we spoke of a change betwixt two Religions in common and you speake of a change from a true one to a false one Yet this being sufficient for our intent I will add that if you had that conceite of the true Religion which much thought hath bredd in me to wit that t' is the most high wise rationnall conformable to man's nature to gouerment to all
things fitting for man's life that can be imagined of all disciplines and learnings possible that it leadeth into greater secrets of nature theÌ„ otherwise wee should euer reach vnto 〈◊〉 and exceedeth all the knowledge which made antient and moderne sages so proud If you had I saie this conceite of the true Religion you would be much more confirmed and strengthened in this persuasion But why doe you not thinke it impossible that the authoritie of one man should ouerswaye all the witts of the world Surely the Diuill him selfe would rather helpe the church then permitte so litle pride amongst meÌ„ Neuer yet anie great man wanted his Antagonist who had he such a flawe in is credit as this our subiect would giue him it would quiekly hinder the extent of his authoritie Not anie of our neuer so much esteemed fathers is receiued in all things nor is anie of their authoritie's receiued in such an eminent height as is necessarie for the effect we speake of Who was greater then Origen And yet was he condemned euen wheÌ„ he was in greatest vogue But I neede not appeale to examples where nature by it's owne force strike's the stroke For ether this new doctrine is brought in openly by the strong and earnest endeauours of the author him self whose authoritie must swaye the world and of his followers And then by this verie negotiation it will discouer it's newnesse and being false the more it is haÌ„dled the more it will shew it's weaknesse and at length goe out like a snuffe of it self Or els it come's in neglectedly being written by the bye and the Innouator's authoritie vrged by others vpon occasion and then the verie manner beare's with it so litle likelyhood and smale efficacitie as that it would be euerie where chechked by reason of it's newnesse and therefore could neuer passe vncontrowled through anie great extent And if we put the case as before to be in the Catholike church where the truth is not to be handled by learned reasons as being aboue nature but by what our forefathers haue taught vs you see this great man's authoritie presently vanisheth into smoake being there 's no place for anie man's authoritie where the constant and vniuersall verdict of the present world is against it in respect whereof he is but a single man Concerning force or power you must suppose before you can make anie apparent argument of it 1. that this power is ouer the whole Christian world 2. to be so strong that it feareth not to giue distaste to the people 3. to be vehemently desirous to quell the ould faith and bring in a new one 4. that it hath zealous ministers for the same end And lastly that all these dure and continue vntill all the antient faith be extinct And when all is done yet will it remaine vpon record and be knowne when this new opinion began and the violence being ended there 's a roote in men's harts to reiect this new opinion and returne to the old supposing as we doe there 's more reason for the old then for the new So that in common sense and nature's principles the Pope had iust cause to write to the Emperor in these termes Niteris incassum nauem subâ—â—ergere Petri Fluctuat at namquam mergitur illaratis But to conclude this point tell me cosen what time thinke you is necessarie for the introducing of an error by litle and litle before it will passe for a thing deliuered by haÌ„d to haÌ„d from Christ For such an opinion we call a Tradition Nephew I see it must gaine this reputation you speake of by making it quitte forgotten that the other opinioÌ„ was euer ether generally held or practized For as loÌ„g as t' is knowne that the other opinion was antienter they striue in vaine 〈…〉 this was deliuered by 〈…〉 sâ—â—â— and so defecâ—â—â—d 〈…〉 to hand Wherefore 〈…〉 it can be 〈…〉 â—â—â—trarie was in vogâ—◠〈…〉 â—east aÌ„d some what more 〈◊〉 needes be the 〈…〉 broching and 〈…〉 if I remember we 〈…〉 for 4. or 600. yeares the generally practized 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 church 〈…〉 certaine 〈…〉 aâ— I see that at 〈…〉 â—e iâ— necessarie and as much more as is 〈…〉 by 〈…〉 yet wil there still remaine writings of that time in which such a point was in dispute which will to sâ—â—â—â—e atleast in 〈◊〉 of the preuailing side 〈◊〉 such a controuersie 〈◊〉 hath 〈◊〉 and that the fallen side was antienter and consequeÌ„tly 〈◊〉 will sâ—â—ll be euidence 〈◊〉 there was an other faith 〈◊〉 doctrine deliuered by the Apostles before this came vp which in deede ought to be 〈◊〉 Vncle. Then cosen let vs put 200. yeares to be sufficieÌ„t for such an extinction which 〈◊〉 great a circuit and for a 〈◊〉 rooted in men's harts aâ—d practized in their actions is but a smale time and ioyne thâ—â— the 4. or 600 we speake of And considere whether anie violent mutation caÌ„ coÌ„tinue against nature for 6 or 800. yeares be it ether of Tyranie authoritie or what other occasion soeuer and this to oppresse the true faith grounded in nature Might we not as well saie there would be perpetuall faire wether for manie yeares together through a great part of the world â— as that there should be such a perpetuall disposition against reason and our naturall inclination to the vtter ruine and ouerthrow of our euerie where receiued faith Nephew You haue reason vncle For although when I considere the mutabilitie of mankinde alone and contriue with my self how this might be effected it seeme's plausible to saie that an other opinion might come in and destroy a receiued tenet yet when I deepely weigh what you saie against it and ballaÌ„ce the one with the other I see my frame is limited within a smale compasse and few yeares but reacheth not to the vniuersalitie and generall Dominion or Gouerment of nature For I could make the like argument for not raining blowing shyning and the like that is in deede for the destruction of nature And I doe not thinke you inteÌ„de to make the church stronger then the pillars of nature on which it stande's We ought not therefore to esteeme nature vniuersally defectible because we cannot reach to see fully how euerie particular encumbrance is auoided for t' is not that in ether of these subiects they causes are not certaine and infalible but that my discourse comprehende's them not Vncle. I doe not in deede intende to make the strength of faith greater theÌ„ the streÌ„gth of nature why faith is stronger then nature though perhapps I could supposing which is certaine that nature was created and built for the supernaturall guifts and goods which God bestowe's vpon it they which being greater and better then nature t' is fitting they should haue stronger mantenance and holds then nature it self And therefore t' is likely that nature is strengthened by principles and fundations aboue it's pitch to the end it may be a fit and sure proppe of faith and supernaturall
that how soeuer the common people doe not distinguish what is of Tradition and what is but of some learned men's opinioÌ„s neuerthelesse those whom we call Deuines if truly they be such as the name require's may aÌ„d doe distinguish positions of such different natures For Christian doctrine is not a bundle of loose positions as those who negligently looke on it may thinke but a true discipline hanging together by consequences and order tending to one end And of this doctrine and discipline some parts be such as cannot be knowne but by immediate reuelation others such as no sensible man can doubt of if he beleeue the former And learned meÌ„ know that of both these two the one is expresly deliuered by tradition the other is as firme as if it were so deliuered For as it was reueiled that our sauiour is truly God and man so euerie man of coÌ„mon sense knowes that he had two wills Deuine and human against the Monothelites Other points there may be which neede art and studie to deduce and fetch them out of the two former And of these likewise a true Deuine cannot be ignoraÌ„t being they are be fruits of learning and studie and consequently haue euer beene in the soules and writings of learned Masters And these points euerie one knowes who is conuersant in Logike and in iudging the qualities of such propositions as belong to scieÌ„ce And your self I am sure by the litle skill you haue therein and by the smale light of this discourse will eastly iudge that this is reasonable Nephew I conceiue your meaning but whereas you saie that the points of the second order are as firme as those which are deliuered by Tradition me thinke's that 's not reasonable sithence Tradition relye's wholy on God and his word but the other only vpoÌ„ man's discourse which is falible and easily mistaken and therefore must of necessitie be much inferior Vncle. I would not haue you take my words so precisely not in so rigorous a degree of comparison for so euen of demonstrations the precedent will be esteemed more certaine then that which is deduced out of it though in a morall eâ—tiâ—ation the certainties be equall And so it is in those two degrees for truly that litle discourse which is required for the second degree is infalible certaine and euident and therefore the knowledge proceeding froÌ„ it may well be rancked with the former degree But I suppose you expect to heare why it doth not follow that if a truth not deliuered by Tradition may neuerthelesse passe for such why I saie an errour may not haue the same progresse and surprise the church that is §. 11 Why no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God ANd this I will shew you in a word because it falleth into the repetitioÌ„ of what we haue alreadie discoursed on The impossibilities are three First it trencheth vpon the resolution wee formerly made that one man's authoritie could not preuaile against and ouer the whole church for this is the difference betwixt a truth and a false hood that a truth though it beginne from one yet may it be accepted of by all by reason of it's euidence Which when one hath laid opeÌ„ others may follow not for the man's authoritie but for the loue of the seene truth Whereas falsehood which cannot bring euidence with it must be bolstered vp by the man's credit aÌ„d reputation which you know is insufficient Secondly it is impossible an errour should generally preuaille by reason of the immutabilitie which is in the vniuersalitie of contingent causes whose particulars may be defectiue but the vniuersalls cannot So that as it is impossible in nature that all children should be borne with one eye all coltes with three leggs or the like so were it a monstrous accident and that in a higher and more immutable nature if an errour should generally preuaile and passe through all mankinde or through so great a part of it as we make accounte the Catholike church is and will euer be The third impossibilitie is because it trencheth vpon the stabilitie of Religion for sithence we agreed that t' is impossible for anie nation to haue no Religion and as impossible to change a true into a false And likewise that Christian doctrine hath the nature of science so farre as that no errour can fall into it but must bring contradiction and opposition against the principles and receiued practize of the church and so make a breach against the antient possession it doth therefore plainely appeare that as it is impossible for such a breach to become vniuersall in time and place so likewise must it needes be impossible that an vntruth should be vniuersally receiued for tradition hauing not beene deliuered as such Nephew I must confesse your reasons seeme good yet might one saie all your reasoÌ„s are but morall persuasions which may faile as if one should saie it is reasonable to thinke an honest man will not lye yet I doubt not but some times the coÌ„trarie happene's Wherefore I pray you tell me §. 12 Of what qualitie you thinke these your reasons and discourses be and whether you conceiue them to beare an absolute certaintie VNcle I feare it will be to farr on the night before I can satisfie your difficultie yet I will shew you breefly and familiarly what may suffice Tell me then doe you thinke there is such a towne as Rome or Constantinople Nephew That I doe I would I knew what I aske as well Vncle. Why who tould you there were anie such townes Nephew Truly I doe not remember who tould me so in particular but I haue heard so manie talke of them without doubting that it were follie to doubt of it Vncle. But if I or some other of whose honestie you doe not doubt should tell you we haue beene there and haue seene those townes with our owne eyes would you belieue it more certainely then you doe Nephew No in deede vncle for although I should in that case make no doubt of it yet their authorities vpon which I doe alreadie belieue it are no lesse nay farr greater seeing that if it were not fo manie more of no lesse credit and reputation must be lyars whoÌ„ though I cannot name yet nature tell 's me that if thousands had not reported it of their owne knowledge it could not passe so constaÌ„tly and vncontrowlably as is doth Vncle. But if a man should come with manie great reasoÌ„s and motiues to persuade you that there is not euer was anie such cities a we speake of Nay let vs suppose that if you liued but 20 myles from London where euerie day you fawe hundreth's come from theÌ„ce and your self had neuer beene there And there should come vnto you a man who should labour to shew by reason that it were a follie to thinke there were anie such towne as LondoÌ„ Or to make our supposition more strong suppose you had liued diuers yeares in London and had neuer seene
to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. Cypriā seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more thē what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatiō and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessiō of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor cā performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to §. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt Adā's being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accoūted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three descēts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the clēsing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abādoned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this cōtrouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgottē or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preuēted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerrūne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch ād Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpō this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's
be presumed that mē bēd and straine their learning to mantaine a falsitie For otherwise the verie fame of learning beare's with it the credit and esteeme of truth and honestie And who delight 's in learned labours is commonly free both from quarrellsome interest and hurtefull pleasures out of which doe spring all cunning fraude and circumvention wherevpon a meere scholler is quitte by this verie name from suspicion of guile and craftinesse But how soeuer our Religion hath besides learning manifest signes of honestie and vertue For all the pointes wherein we differ from Protestants are of that nature that they incite vs to the practize of some vertue or other As we saie charitie and the keeping of the commandements doe iustifie and deserue eternall reward Confession bring 's the remembrance and sorrow for our sinnes satisfaction is performed by good deedes Praying for the dead praying to Saincts keeping and reuerēcing Pictures of Christ and his Saincts And aboue all the presence of God in the B. Sacrament All which be matters of great moment and consideration continually prouoking vs to lift vp our mindes to God and heauen to thinke of the life to come and to practize vertuous actions The most earnest Protestant who hath but cast his eye beyond the sea cannot denie but ther 's a maine difference in exteriour deuotion amongst Catholikes aboue Protestāts Our churches are open euerie daye seruice and Masses said all the fore noone ād in diuers there is seruice a great part of the after noone Our seruice is much longer then the Protestants Our ceremonies and magnificence verie spectable Our Sacraments more in nūber more frequented and done with more state and reuerence The riches of our churches Altars Pictures inestimable Our solemnities and Triumphs glorious perpetuall sermons on festifall days and on euerie daye in the lent and Aduent the B. Sacrament often exposed with great concurse of deuout people as all Protestant trauellers can witnesse Adde to these the multitudes of Religious men and women whose profession is retired from busineses and the world to haue more time to conuerse with God The often miracles the frequent Saincts and holy men that cannot be denied but at least we thinke and saie we haue thē In a word the Protestant's faith seeme's like the piece of monie buried in the grounde and the Catholike's like a burning torch which forceth all within it's sphere to cast their eyes vpon it I knowe the readie answere is that all is but hypocrisie and that there is as great wickednesse amongst Catholikes as amongst Protestants But I could wish that hee who is thus rash ād readie to saie this were as curious and carefull to know how to proue it For it were absurde to thinke that who strike's but one blowe in twentie in a smith's shoppe should make as great a dinte as hee who strike's twētie And suerly no lesse foolish it were to thinke that whose harts and hāds are continually busied about God and godly things should make no greater impressiō in their soules thē they who saie not a prayer once a mōth and whose cheefe deuotiō is to heare a mā make a pleasing discourse in a pulpit I wll not denie but that there bee as fowle sinners and as manie amongst Catholike as amōgst Protestants if not more and wickeder For sacriledge cannot be so great where sainctitie is lesse and who best knowe's his Masters will must needes deserue most stripes for his trespasse No man could damne his posteritie but who had original iustice to loose nor could anie betraye Christ but who had eate bread at his table Wherefore Protestants cannot be so wicked as Catholikes hauing not such a saintly faith nor such a sacred church to disgrace and abuse Yet doe I not thinke but that a good argumēt may be made for our church by it's saintitie remēbring well what an English Protestant Clergie man of note who had beene at Rome after his conuersion was wont to saie when he heard anie speake against the vices of the Court of Rome I haue knowne quoth he manie and manie of the Protestant clergie as honest men as euer I met withall in my life in whose hands I durst vēture my state and life but I neuer knew anie who had the reputation and esteeme amongst wise mē to be a saint or of extraordinarie holinesse Here in Rome I see in a smale number of great Prelats two or three that haue the fame of extraordinarie vertue and the like I find of all sorts both of church men and laitie some to be reputed exemplarly holy As for the vices whereof I heare the reports and doubt not but they are to true yet I see they are caried discreetly and breake not forth into anie publicke scandall So that although Protestāts haue diuers morall honest men and Catholikes manie wicked yet doth it not follow that they are equall in behauiour For Catholikes haue some Saincts Protestants none Catholikes faultes are in proportiō fewer Protestant's good workes verie defectiue in the like proportion And this difference is such an one as worthily make's a marke of the Catholike church and as in deede is befitting a church made of men who beare immortall soules in vessels of flesh and bloode The Pope's spirituall poWer is no tyranie but Was euer the same But I had almost forgotten the difficultie you made of the Pope's tyrannizing and forcing all men's witts to serue him Doe you thinke he tyranize's the bodies or the mindes If the mindes why then he hath persuaded them his pwer is lawfull giuen by Iesus Christ and continued since his time Wherefore these mē who are thus persuaded being so manie so learned and withall so vpright as that for consciēce sake they will forgoe the verie libertie of their vnderstandings make a great argument that the truth is as they saie For otherwise how easie were it for a king of France or spaine or Emperour to follow the example of England Hollād and diuers states of Germanie who would aide and backe thē if they would renounce this pretended Tyrannie whereas these Reuolters frō the church of Rome did it without anie present example nay with the detestation of all their neighbours Besides all the Pope's names and actions are registred if they did anie thing of note if they changed but their attire consecrated a Bishop sent a Cardinal's cappe or the like all is vpon record Only this action of conquering the whole world in the waie of an vniuersall father of setting this spirituall throne not only aboue Kings and Monarches Bishopps and Patriarkes but euen aboue the wisedome of the sages and aboue the valour of vndaunted courages this only I saie by all Historians must haue beene accounted vnworthie of mention But remember cosen that commō sense teache's vs That a thing so much against the generall current of the publicke church of Christ for so manie ages ought to be well proued according to the rule you granted me