with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
it was lawfull by the law of God in cases specified in the same lawe that is Cap. 22.2 as I take it if the thiefe breake vp a house for that I finde specified in Exodus Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified giueth sentence of a thiefe that as the Lorde liueth he is the child of death that is that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm Arbangtaijm Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold as no Romanist may deny Exod. 21.1 because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe we see plainely that beside the sentence of death Cap. 6.31 which Dauid iustifieth with an oath the punishment specified in the law is doubled nay the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon where it is sayd that a thiefe being taken shall restore seuen fold or giue all the substance that he hath Rom. 13.4 and touching the christian Magistrate S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 5.20 that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance which God hath put in his hand where feare is made the end of punishment as it is in Timothy where the same Apostle saith them that sinne rebuke openly that the rest may feare but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure that might worke this feare and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state that euill disposed men may feare and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall but still to increase the terrour of them till feare to doe euill be sufficiently planted and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure or indignation against sinne Psal 90.11 for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words thereafter as thou art feared so is thy displeasure wherefore these two displeasure and feare are like the two buckets of a Well whereof the one commeth vp when the other goeth downe and the one is at the highest when the other is at the lowest briefely then to conclude as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time and a long time after to worke feare in that Nation and State but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates as they saw the disposition of the people to require it so the christian Magistrate finding by experience that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse must needs whe this sworde and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate that he may be feared The Dialogue Sestio III. Tradition PAp I will a It is better to omit them then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest omit those other pointes of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture for breuities sake and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause reseruing your answere to the rest vnto your better leasure and premeditation yet by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point b VVe can ackdowledge no such traditions who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles without writing and continued and obserued from hand to hand with no lesse reuerence then they did the written Scriptures Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time that when the Scriptures were alledged against them they would answere that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles and kept in the church by succession of Bishops were obiected they would answere that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues and that they alone had found out the trueth lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c They might better doe it then then you now Catholiks in the first age of the Church did alledge against the hereticks of that time Scripture and Traditions euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time and herein onely consisteth the difference when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time they doe flie to the interpretation when the interpretation of the Bishops that is of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them they answere in effect that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes and that they alone haue found the trueth when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d You may sooner alledge them then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them alledged they answere that the Apostles did leaue none such or if they did that they are not to bee receiued vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture when scripture is brought against you you appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of the fathers to the interpretation of Caluin or to the e This is but the imagination of your brayne imagination of your owne braine as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers you herein Epiphanius O portet autem traditione vti non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt c. Wee ought to vse traditions beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture And a little after it followeth Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere lib. 2. to 2. haeres 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie The same father for the confutation of Aerius vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles haeres 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus hee voucheth a place out of the booke a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke of the Apostles Constitutions haeres 45. Saint Augustine Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles b How can it be knowne whether this beleefe were right or wrong are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition because they are obserued through the vniuersall world de baptis cont Donat lib. 2. fo 2. The same Author saith that the vniuersall Church doth obserue as a tradition of the fathers that when mention is made of the dead at the tim of the sacrifice that they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them de verb Apost serm 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the
Canons c These Canons are in writing of the Apostles and to this effect could I alledge the testimony of all ancient fathers and doctors as it were with one mouth so that if you should deny S. Iohns gospell I could vse none other d The more vnwise you proofe against you for the one then I can for the other which is the testimony and consent of antiquitie and e Surety you are deceyued surely by denying of traditions you haue brought your selfe into a very intricate Dilemma for eyther you must proue f That is soone done by scripture that the first day of the wéeke ought to bee kept holy as the Sabbath of Christians c. and grant that all the ancient fathers who were Papists and held many things by tradition were damned g If they were Papists they were heretickes but they were neyther of both heretickes or else that you are hereticks your selfe The Answere NOw followeth as it were by the way a blind inartificiall proofe of Traditions out of the authoritie of men Lib. 3. cap. 2. Lib. 3. cap. 1. whereof Irenaeus is the first yet Irenaeus speaks not of Traditions but with this Preface non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae cognouimus quam per eos per quos Euangelium peruenit ad nos quod quidem tunc preconiauerunt postea vero per Deivoluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum columnam fidei nostrae futurum We haue knowne the manner or order of our saluation by none other men then by those by whom the Gospell came vnto vs which then indeed they preached and afterward by the will of God deliuered to vs in the scriptures to be vnto vs the foundation and piller of our faith Now hauing layd this foundation in the first Chapter and concluded withall that all heretickes dissent from the Scriptures hee begins the next Chapter after this sort Cum enim ex scripturis arguuntur in accusacionem conuertuntur ipsarum scripturarum quasi non recte habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sint dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciant traditionem For when they are conuinced by the scriptures they fall to accusing the Scriptures as if they were not 〈…〉 set downe or not of sufficient authoritie and because things are diuersly spoken and because the trueth cannot be found in them by those which know not the tradition These hereticks are as like the Papists as if the one had bin spued out of the others mouth I trow you vnderstand who they be that call the scriptures of God dead incke a dead and a dumbe thing dumbe iudges the blacke Gospell inckehorne diuinitie a nose of waxe c. if you know them not reade Iewels Apology and there you shall find them Part. 4. cap. 19 di 1. Sectione 23. your owne Papist saith that the Scriptures without the helpe of church fathers and councels are the fountaine of all heresie and atheisme thus heretickes doe and haue done alwaies quia ex scripturis arguuntur saith Irenaeus and so eyther the scripture or their heresie must needs fall But to proceede Irenaeus tels you why these hereticks would not be ruled by the scriptures namely because Paul saith sapientiam loquimur inter perfectos and this is Bellarmines owne reason for vnwritten verities borrowed as you see 1. Cor. 2.6 De verbo Dei non scripto lib. 4. cap. 11. Tertullian of these old heretickes and confuted by Tertullian in his Prescriptions but thus the spirite of Antichrist goeth on still in these dayes as it did in Irenaeus and Tertullians time to make way to his owne dreames It was full time for our Papist here to draw the Readers mind awry to Iohn Caluin and I wot not what appeales and imaginations and braines and such like floures of popish rhetoricke otherwise it had bin easie to see that hee and his friendes are the sonnes and heires of Valentinus Marcion Cerinthus Basilides and Carpocrates all of them or some of them as Irenaeus teacheth vs and this may be yet better seene in that Irenaeus being driuen from scripture Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. lib. 3. cap. 2. which these heretickes contemned to Traditions which before they seemed to allow of he can no way fasten vpon them neither by Scripture nor Traditions vnlesse they might be masters of both as being wiser men in their owne conceites then eyther the Apostles that deliuered them or the Bishops that kept them Now iudge who bee the heires of these heretickes Iohn Caluin as this Papist prateth or the Pope and his dependants whose religion is called by Saint Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is 2. Thes 2 7 8 Ni◠Cusanus de auth eccles supra contrascript Albert. Pighius eccles hierarch lib. 6.13 such a mysterie as will be ruled by no law a mysterie of lawlesse iniquitie and the Pope himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a lawlesse man such as will stoope neyther to Scripture nor Tradition one of his Cardinals saith Nulla sunt Christi praecepta nisi quae per ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt There are no precepts of Christ but these which the Church accounteth to be such so the Church of Rome is aboue the Scripture And another Champion saith Papa virtualiter est tota ecclesia the Pope is in power the whole Church and so the Pope is aboue the Church Thus the Pope must be first the Church must be next and the scripture giuen of God by inspiration Must haue the third place must consistere in tertijs and be glad of such roome as these great masters will afford it Quapropter vndique resistendum est saith Irenaeus wherfore wee must set our selues against them euerie way If scripture will not serue we vse tradition and if both be contemned wee vse all other meanes that may bee thought of to draw them ad conuersionem veritatis This is Irenaeus his conclusion whole discourse in this Chapter which makes nothing at all for Popish traditions which are not alleaged as witnesses and backes to the truth of the scripture nor yet against such as denye the perfection of the worde written Epiphanius is next who if he had sayd Oportet traditione abuti We must abuse tradition our Papist and his friends had been beholding to him but Epiphanius saith else where That he gathered the truth of the doctrine of God Ex vniuersa scriptura out of the whole scripture to be an anchor-hold vnto vs Heres 69. Epip Anchor and in the beginning of his Anchorate thus we read De vide vobis scribam quum requiratis vos fratres nostri ea quae spectant ad vestram salutem ex diuina sancta scriptura firmum fundamentum fidei de patre filio spiritu sancto de reliqua vniuersa in Christo salute de resurrectione inquam
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
labours This place is cleere yet Bellarmine hath scraped together two answeres one out of Anselmus who saith that Saint Iohn speakes of the time that followeth the last iudgement which is absurd for then he would haue sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from thence-forth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from hence-forth his other answere out of Haimo and Richardus De S. Victore restraines the comfort of this heauenly voice to Martyrs and perfect men which is a male part impounding of the grace of God common to all that keepe the commaundements of God and liue and die in the faith of Iesus it will trouble Bellarmine and Victor let father Haimo help them to perswade wise men that Meri in Domino to die in the Lord is more proper to perfect men than Nubere in Domino 1. Cor. 7.39 to marry in the Lord to perfect women howbeit these two answeres play at hard-head and beat out one anothers braines Anselmus cannot abide we should allow the one and Haimo and Victor wil be starke angrie with vs if wee allowe the other and therefore to please both sides it will be our best way to allowe neither But to proceede Chrysostome makes another petition for the dead that they may finde the Iudge fauourable wherin we must consider two things the sentence of the Iudge and the Execution The sentence is either particular presently after death Eccles 11.26 or generall at the last day in the clouds of heauen touching the former Chrysostomes petition for fauour comes too late and touching the other it must needs bee either venite benedicti patris mei come ye blessed of my father or else ite maledicti in ignem aeternum Math. 25.34.41 goe ye cursed into hell fire no praying or sacrificing can either reuoke or alter this sentence Ego Iehoua non mutor I am the Lord Malac. 3.6 Genes 18.25 and change not and as the Lord is immutable so his sentence both first and last is iust Shall not the Iudge of the world doe right saith Abraham as if he should say it is impossible it should be otherwise wherefore if any fauour bee to be found it must be in the execution Psal 103.20 Now the Executioners being either Angels or Diuels Angels must doe the will of God as it is enioyned them at the Diuels hands no fauour can bee looked for nowe what 's next verily it is hard to tell vnlesse we call vpon God to rectifie that which is right to mend that which is not amisse to vndoe that which is done well and to mitigate that punishment which is no sharper than it ought to be it may well stand with the folly of mans affections to make such prayers but it will hardly stand with the wisedome and iustice of God to giue them the hearing Suffragia aut ad hoc prosunt vt plena sit remissio Enchirid. cap. 110. aut tolerabilior damnatio saith Austine Suffrages are profitable to make either remission of sinnes more perfect or damnation more tollerable but how remission or mitigation of an absolute and a iust sentence damnatorie Ad supplicium tantum tale To punishment so great and of such qualitie being vnder execution can possibly stand with Ego Iehoua non mutor in Malachy it passeth the reach of all the wit learning I haue to determine Wherfore well might Chrysostome say Nouerunt the Apostles knew what profite redounded to the dead by commemoration in the dreadfull mysteries for hee himselfe knew not how the prayers of Priest and people could profite the dead much lesse how annuall commemorations could doe it And here let it bee considered how vntowardly Chrysostome disputeth the Apostles knew that commemoration of the dead at the altar was profitable vnto them Ergo the Apostles ordained it should be so I will not stand vpon the sequele let that goe for good but how knewe Chrysostome what the Apostles knew who reuealed their counsell vnto him if any bodie told him what reason had he to beleeue it if no bodie told him what reason had he to say it and therefore he that loues Chrysostome best must needs confesse that his antecedent is more doubtfull than his conclusion but when hee reasoneth further that the people and Priest stretching out their handes to heauen must needs appease Gods wrath Ergo commemoration of the dead is profitable hee is much ouer-seene for commemoration of the dead and praying fot the dead are not the same as the Papists themselues knowe and confesse De purg lib. 1. cap. 5. Epiphanius nusquam dicit orari pro sanctis sed memoriam fieri saith Bellarmine Epiphanius neuer saith we pray for the dead but hold a memorie of them And therefore herein Chrysostome is forsaken of all his friends both Papists and Protestants howbeit the growing of this vnluckie twigge from profiting the quicke to profiting the dead from commemorating at the altar to praying offering and sacrificing at the altar from thankesgiuing to intreating c. is here made knowne vnto vs so as now it is become a tree of so great spread that a number of vncleane birdes build their nests in the braunches of it The Dialogue Sectio X. TErtullian a This ancien father was a Montanist and a Chiliaste as it appeareth by this place This ancient father reasoning with a woman whose husband was dead concerning the bond that did still remaine betwéene her and her dead husband concludeth thus Let her pray for his soule let her intreat that he may be refreshed b VVhat bond see Rom. 7.2 He puts out and in and misordereth Tertullians words in the meane time and that at the resurrection she may haue the fruition of his company these things if she do not it may be truely said of her that she hath forsaken him infinite are the places which might be alledged to this purpose but this may suffice to prooue that this was the beléefe and practise of the c Ierome saith that Tertullian was not homo ecclesiae a man of the church Church in Tertullians time who liued néere vnto the Apostles that in Epiphanius Ambrose Austine Chrysostomes d All these were of one time and onely Chrysostome fathereth this Tradition vpon the Apostles it was holden for a Tradition left by the Apostles and generally beléeued and practised through e That which he called the Latine church is here called Vniuersall c. Vide Sect. 7. the vniuersall Church and that it hath euer since bin so beléeued and practised through the world vntill the bore affirmation of Luther that there was no such Tradition left by the Apostles preuailed more with you than the authoritie of all these ancient fathers and the long continued practise of the vniuersall Church to the contrary The Answere YOur Papist heere alleadgeth Tertullian and for very shame concealeth the place where this testimonie is to be found if he had but named Tertullians booke
weakenesse shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine and euery testimonie thereto belonging whereof you may gather that this second wound is easily healed I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas doth not prooue them to be of two Churches or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke The ancient Fathers were men and might erre and did erre many of them together euen whole Councels as it is apparant to the world yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church No friend Papist though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine as they likewise discented from such as were before them yet all of vs hold one foundation and it was no part of their beleefe that such as held not these points were out of the Church neither is it any part of our beleefe Ad Fortunatianum Epist 111. that such as held them were damned Heretickes Austine saith Catholicorum laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus vt nobis non liceat saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere We ought not to haue the same in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men as the canonicall scriptures that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men disallow and refuse something in their writings And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine Epist 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie Austine is bold to answere him thus Solis eis scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia per illos authores canonicos vel probobabili ratione quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerūt I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures which are now called Canonicall to beleeue assuredly that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing But others I read so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth The Dialogue Sectio XXIII PRo The Doctors did erre grosly in many things as you must of force cōfesse therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon Austine wrote his Retractations in the doctrin of purgatorie which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie he was so a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle doubtfull and wauering that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully as fieri potest it may be that there is such a thing forsitan ita est peraduentute it is so sometime he seemeth to affirme it and sometime he flatly denieth it Irenaeus held that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages Hilarie held that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers and find in them many such points of doctrine which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie Now tell me why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church by refusing some of their opinions more than you doe exclude them out your Church by refusing of other some or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one as it is for you to reiect it in the other or why may not I argue as you doe against vs that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time did imbrace the same or if that their said opinions had bene erroneous that some men or other would haue impugned thē by writing Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points b VVhere or whē here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order first therefore I must not denie that the doctors were men and that they were not without their blemishes and errors c VVe must d sappoint you of your hope Looke the answere hoping that you will also confesse that they were such men as for their great learning and piety haue euer bene admired and had in high reuerence of all posteritie and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ To erre is incident to mans frailtie and to d As you papists doe persist in an errour is brutish but to e As you papists cannot abide to doe acknowledge and recant an errour is the worke of the holy Ghost and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it but if you doe f VVe insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes infinuate by alleaging of his Retractations that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes the booke is extant let the iudge be brought foorth your next allegation whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie is the instabilitie of his g His doctrine touching purgatorie but now simply as you insinuate doctrine for one while say you he affirmeth another he denieth another he doubteth it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion and how after his conuersion hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h Beleeue not vs but your owne eyes look and peruse the places beleeueth you herein must also beléeue therewithall that S. Austine had neither learning wit nor regard of his repuputation but let vs admit that such foule blots as you do pretend had dropped from his pen is it not like think you that in his i VVhat if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractatiōs how then Retractations they should haue bin discouered and
liter lib. 10. into the contrary extreame Austine himselfe speaking of Tertullian saith thus De Deo noluit aliter sapere qui sane quoniam acutus est inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur quid enim verius dicere potuit quam id quod ait quodam loco Esse corporale passibile est debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat etiam Deum corpus esse neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion for what could he speake more truly than when hee saith in a certaine place that to be bodily is to be passible therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before that God is a bodie for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible Heere is a contradiction namely to be bodily is to be passible and God is bodily which be the premises of a Syllogisme and if you adde the conclusion which ariseth of them Ergo God is passible the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise now the maior is most true saith Austine ergo say I the minor is false and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood you will say then debunt ergo mutare sententiam it is true but he changed it not for ought wee know but left this and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted yet was he still accounted a very learned man Cyprian when he called for Tertullian was woont to say da magistrum giue me my master Austine saith acutus est he is a quicke and subtile disputer and Erasmus Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus Tertullian was the learnedest by much In praefat oper Hilaric of the Latine diuines Now where our papist still goeth on and tels vs after his absurd manner that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists and therefore I hope he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors then hath he sayd nothing to purpose but bred a suspition in his reader that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie than the Fathers and this suspition is yet increased in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches Fathers and Councels to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures and sucke poyson out of the one aswell as the other I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Action 1. Ibidem Cyrilli in multis locis ego cum patribus eijcior c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius Gregorie Cyrill in ma-many places I am cast out with the Fathers c. So Eutyches Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli Athanasij Ibid. Action sanctorum patrum So Carosus Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem octo patrum sic credo c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson but of the Scripture Ad pompeium cont epist Steph. de peccac merit remiss lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition the error of man doth cease And Austine Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued As for the Church he talkes of if he be straitly examined he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome and so no Scripture nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant but that which Rome will affoord vs that 's the Church which hee takes to be as he said a while agoe the sure rocke and pillar of trueth De expresse verbo Dei Hosius saith Si quis habeat interpretationē ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae etiāsi nec sciat nec intelligat an quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture although he neither know not vnderstand whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture yet he hath the very word of God How like you this my maisters you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels no nor of learning nor wit neither for the Church of Rome whether it agree or agree not with the words of the Scripture will serue the turne you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse the Church of Rome will watch for you but sirs I pray you tell vs wil your Church of Rome when she hath giuen vs an interpretation stand to it like a post and neuer alter that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs. Nicho. Casanus No we dare not promise you that for we haue a great man one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church thus De authoritate ecclesiae conciliorum supra contra scripturam of the authoritie of the Church Councels aboue contrary to the Scripture And in that booke he hath set downe Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise Marry then fie vpon you and vpon your Church our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter as either you or your Church Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed I pray you looke vpon them and you shall find the two first to be the same and the third little differing from the other two the Fathers errors saith he were priuate opinions that 's the first one doctors opinion that 's the next reiected of the Church that 's the last Now if this word reiected be no more but not receiued or allowed for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence
be short the same Father when he saith In fide liberum suae potestatis arbitrium hommi seruauit Dominus God hath reserued to man in faith a will free and in his owne power What doth he else but place faith in the free will and power of man than which nothing can be more contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel Hilar. in psal 118. neither is the testimonie of Hilarie and Epiphanius of much better regard for when the one saith Est à nobis cum oramus exordium The beginning is from our selues when we pray IdeÌ„ in psal 2. Againe Vnicuique nostrum libertatem vitae sensumque permisit He hath graunted to euerie of vs libertie of life and sence And againe Voluntas nostra hoc proprium ex se habere debet vt velit Deus incipienti crementum dare This our will ought to haue proper of it selfe that when it beginneth God would giue increase And the other Epiph. heres 16. Possumus peccare non peccare It is in our power to sinne and not to sinne And againe Circa hominem est bona operari aut malas res appetere It it in mans power to doe good or to desire euill things I see no inckling of any grace but onely of the naturall force and power of mans will I will not charge these auncient fathers with all that may be gathered out of their writings but this I may say vnder benedicite that such sayings as these were the first grounds and foundations of the Pelagian heresie August contra Iulianum Pelag lib. 1. ca. 2. Pelagianis nondùm litigantibus securius loquebantur saith Austine the Fathres spake with lesse circumspection before they were combred with Pelagianisme The Dialogue Sectio XXI The doctrine of the keyes AS touching this point of doctrine the church of Rome doth teach none a But by your leaue you are deceiued other thing then that which our Sauiour Christ doth in the 16. of S Matthews Gospell in plaine and expresse wordes where hee saith vnto S. Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shal be loosed in heauen and in the 20. of S. Iohns Gospell where he saith to all his disciples Whosoeuers sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whosoeuers sinnes ye retayne they are retayned so that you see the literall sense is for vs and the question betweene vs is of the right interpretation and true meaning of the wordes you b VVe doe so for the keyes of discipline are giuen Matth. 18.18 do interpret the binding and loosing here mentioned to be the preaching of the word of God whereby sinnes are forgiuen and loosed to the penitent hearers and retained vnto the impenitent and vnbeleeuers and we doe say that by these wordes our Sauiour did giue authoritie and commission vnto his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be wherein wee doe attribute no more vnto the commissioners in the forgiuing of sinnes than wee doe vnto a seruant that giueth possession of his masters land by vertue of a letter of atturney who although he haue himselfe no interest in the land at all yet hath he full power to conuey his masters interest therein to c He knowes to whom so doth not your popish priest whosoeuer his pleasure is to haue the same conueyed it pleased God to make water an instrument in the forgiuing of sinnes in the Sacrament of Baptisme and in the d VVe know no such sacrament this must goe among other your forgeries sacrament of penance to make man an instrument vnto whom wee doe attribute no more as touching the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the one sacrament then you doe vnto water in the other man who cannot see the heart giueth remission to all that pretend to be penitent and contrite but God who seeth the heart e And would giue it though your new-found sacrament had neuer bin forged giueth remission by the ministery of man to those onely that are truely penitent and contrite And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the question betwéene vs. Now forasmuch as the literall sense being wholy for vs the controuersie doth consist onely in the right interpretation let vs compare together your interpretation and ours that we may the better discerne whether of them is most like to be true f VVe build our faith vpoÌ„ no mans opinion old or yong doe you as best beseemes your pâ—ofession you doe build your faith herein vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or perhaps vpon the conceit of your owne braine and wee vpon the authoritie of the g Here is a goodly vaunt if the matter could be so caried away with bigge wordes this fellow would doe well inough ancient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remayning euen to this day To conclude for the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation thus I doe argue against it If Christ did giue this authoritie of binding and loosing vnto his disciples onely and to their successors as I thinke you will not deny it then cannot the preaching of the word bee that binding and loosing giuen onely to the disciples and their successors because h As though a learned lay man had authoritie to preach the word a learned lay man who is none of the disciples successors may bind and loose in that sense that you doe interpret and open and shut the kingdome of heauen as well as an i VVe allow no such ministers ignorant and vnlearned minister Other doctrine then this as touching the forgiuing or retayning of sinnes the church of Rome teacheth not sauing that whereas in the sacrament of Penance temporall penance is inioyned we doe hold that the k Who gaue that power to the Pope I am sure it is more then euer Peter had or practised or bequeathed to his successors this is not to be found either in S. Matthew or S. Iohn Pope hath power to release alter or mittigate the same eyther in the life of the partie or if the partie fortune to die before the performance of his penance to pardon the same after his death For your ful satisfaction herein I l And I you to the answere wil referre you to a learned discourse thereof written in the english tongue by our countrey man Cardinall Allen. The Answere THe Keyes now remaine to bee scoured from popish rust and to this purpose wee may consider that Saint Peters keyes are first taken in hand Math 16.19 Iohn 20.23 Bellar. de pontif and then those keyes that were committed by our Sauiour to the Apostles yet if you will beleeue Bellarmine the first place out of Matthew doth but promise that Saint Peter should be a keykeeper I will giue the
I argue saith he to the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation how I pray you marry you shall heare if Christ giue authoritie of building and loosing onely to his disciples and their successors then cannot preaching be that building and loosing why so man because a learned lay man may bind and loose in that sense as well as an ignorant and vnlearned minister what is this I heare may a lay man preach the word or any ignorant and vnlearned minister either we allow no such blind preachers as you doe Priests Rom. 10 15. Hebr. 5 4. and Paul excludeth the laity from preaching when he saith how shall they preach except they be sent And againe no man taketh honour vnto himselfe but he that is called of God as was Aaron but marke this arguing a little better preaching forsooth cannot be binding and loosing because a learned lay man is able to preach and may not a learned lay man bind and loose too as formally as your popish Priests you will say no because he is not authorised so to doe by the Church and I say againe that he hath as good right to bind and loose as to preach the Gospel and therefore our papist must looke out some new premises if euer hee looke to haue good of his conclusion Harding one of the captaines of his hoste saith that if remitting sinnes consist in pronouncing and denouncing of the Gospel euery lay man yea women Cont. Apolog. Cap. 6. Diuis 2. yea yong boyes girles may assoile sinners yea euery man may assoile himselfe but these fellowes neuer looke at the order of their owne Synagogue where an old wife or a young girle is authorised to baptize and so consequently to remit sinnes the Church of Rome oftentimes rolleth vp the power of the keyes in a bull of lead and sends it abroad to seeke his fortune by a lay pardoner yet make they no doubt but remission of sinnes is annexed vnto it but if we say as Christ saith Math. 23 13. Luk. 11.52 woe be to them that take away the key of knowledge and so shut vp the kingdome of heauen that they that would enter cannot come in this forsooth must needes bee farre fetched and the litterall sense will not beare it But what should a man spend his leasure with such vntoward and insensible triflers that will needs authorise the Pope to pardon the soules of the dead for not performing bodily penance we hold saith he that the Pope hath power to release alter or mitigate temporall penance both in the life time of the partie and also after his death if any of his penance be vnperformed and so our soules must fast bread and water they must repent in sackecloth and ashes they must whippe themselues like Iesuits and shed teares and wring their hands and lie vpon the cold ground and goe barefoot and barelegd and such like if it please not the Popes holinesse to release them but by your Popes leaue I had rather beleeue the voice of God from heauen that tels me that such as die in the Lord are blessed and rest from their labours at the least wise they must needs rest from corporall pennance Cardinall Allens learned discourse is answered long agoe and the answere hath meate drinke and lodging among you without contradiction but let Allen and all his fellow Cardinals say what they can yet this I am sure off the Pope can haue no power ouer any of the dead but onely Gods chosen for reprobates are beyond his reach Rom 8.33.38 39. of the chosen thus saith Saint Paul who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods chosen it is God that iustifieth who shall condemne and a little after I am perswaded saith he that neither death nor life nor Angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature can separate vs from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord. But to let this passe if it be demanded what cause the Pope hath to pardon that which the dead cannot bee charged withall what will or can any papist possibly answere he that is charged with foure or fiue or two yeeres penance or lesse if he be preuented by vntimely death must either be discharged or else be punished for not doing that he cannot do which himselfe a while a goe thought to be absurd if it bee sayd that in this case God punisheth not for omission of penance but for the sinne for which penance was inioyned Mar. 2.7 Luk. 5.21 and not done then the Pope must be sayd either to forgiue that which cannot be required and that 's folly or else the sinne which remained vnsatisfied and that 's blasphemie Yet notwithstanding this blasphemie is rise among papists Contr. Apol. cap. 6. diuis 2. Math. 9.2.6 Luk. 7.48 howsoeuer this fellow heere would faine hide it as the sonne of man saith Harding remitted sinnes to him that was sicke of the Palsie to Marie Magdalen euen so he hath transferred the same power vnto Priests and againe sinnes are released by the power of the keyes in the Sacrament of penaunce to the benefit of them that after baptisme be relapsed and fallen into sinne againe of which power Apol. cap. 6. diuis 1. De author eccles concil supr contr scriptur no Christian doubteth vnlesse he be a Nouatian hereticke And againe the Nouatians were condemned by the Church because they denied that Priests in the Church had authoritie to remit sinnes and so denied the Sacrament of penance Cardinall Cusan Haec ligandi soluendi potestas non minor est in ecclesia quà m in Christo This power of binding and loosing is no lesse in the Church than in Christ Your owne Cardinall a In his Booke of Priesthood Allen saith that the Pope forgiueth sinnes properly And Pope Iulius Iulius Concil tom 1. de primat Rom. eccles Habet sacrosancta Romana ecclesia potestatem singulari sibi priuiligio concessam aperire claudere ianuas regni caelestis quibus voluerit The holy Church of Rome hath by a speciall prerogatiue power graunted vnto it to open and shut the gates of the kingdome of heauen to and against whom it will Wherefore if the case be so plaine as this papist seemes to make it why doe they not make vs a new expurgatorie Index that may blot out these and many moe such sawcie seazings vpon the Lords owne peculiar out of their bookes No no howsoeuer they face out the matter yet are they the sonnes and heires of those priests that Ierome speakes off In Math. cap. 16. who thought they had power to absolue the wicked and condemne the innocent and were woont to say euen in Saint Austines time Nos sanctificamus immundos August de fide oper ca. 14 nos iustificamus impios nos petimus nos impetramus Wee sanctifie the vncleane we iustifie
for the repressing of popish insolencie First therefore where it is disputed that if our description of the Church be right then the ancient Fathers were heretickes and the vniuersall Church hereticall I am content this sequele be iudged by that which hath been alreadie disputed if euerie disagreement from truth must needs bee heresie Gal. 2.11 c. Act. 15.39 Act. 11.2 c. then either Paul or Peter was an hereticke and so was either Barnabas or Paul who were so stirred the one against the other that they parted asunder Peter was chidden of the Church of Iewrie for communicating to the Gentiles yet the Church was deceiued and not Peter 1. Co. 3 12.13 euerie errour is not an heresie and euerie one that builds timber hay or stubble vpon the foundation is not an hereticke and therefore this loose talke is little worth Yea but let vs admit saith hee that there was such a Church as you imagine in the first three hundred yeeres after Christ though it bee most false nay you must admit it maugre your head neither is it false euer the sooner with a merrie word prooue it to be false and wee will bee as farre from either admitting it or imagining it as your selfe but so long as you vse such a generall defence as they of Sodome and Gomorha and the Cities adioyning might haue vsed against Lot the Cananites against Abraham and the old world against Noah and his familie there is no cause why such goodly shewes of antiquitie should controll Gods truth if Lot Abraham and Noah had beene ruled by prescription of time by multitude by authoritie of Princes by traditions of Elders or by any thing else in the world but Gods owne mouth they had been as Sodome and like to Gomorha and yet for all that Peter the head Patron of Rome as you say and the Iewes that depended vppon him playd the hypocrites together and Barnabas a good man full of the holy Ghost and faith Act. 11.24 was led away with them to the same hypocrisie and though the scripture testifie of Lot that hee was a iust man Gal. 2.13 and that his righteous soule was vexed from day to day with the vncleanly conuersation of the wicked yet by your leaue 2. Pet. 2.7.8 the prostitution of his daughters his drunkenesse and incest Gen. 19.8.31 c. doe plainely euince that he was somewhat tainted with the sins of Sodome Yea but Sodome was not the Church of God neither was there any Christian Church established when Peter and his companie playd the hypocrites Well Let that bee graunted yet my reason is so much the stronger for if Strangers from God and young Nouises in religion preuailed so much that the one drew Lot the other Peter and Barnabas to doe thinges not conuenient how much more may the vsuall slips and fals and infections of Christian Churches worke the like inconueniences in the Fathers and guides of the same we doe not imagine that the Church of Christ was vtterly quailed and extinguished vpon a suddaine for that 's more than the gates of hell shall euer be able to bring to passe but this we say and are sure that the mysterie of iniquitie did worke in Pauls time and fell not a sleepe as soone as Saint Paule was dead waking againe 600. 2. Thes 2.7 yeares after when this mysterie was disclosed for Rome was not built in a day or vpon a suddaine and the Maister builders of it are none of the seuen Sleepers and therefore no maruaile though perusing Councels Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we finde the print of the Popes feet here and there scatteringly and so perceiue how he went on and grewe to the fulnesse of the age of Antichrist Neither is it preiudiciall to Gods cleere truth faithfully registred in the word of God that none tooke penne in hand to defend it against Antichrist for the Angels of Pergamus and Thyatira Reuel cap. 2.14.15.20 though they were Gods faithfully Ministers yet doe wee not read that either they or any of their fellowes and friends wrote or spake any thing against Baalamites and Nicholaitans and the false prophecies of Iesabell that infected their Churches Epist 119. ad Ianuar. Austine saith Multa huiusmodi propter nonnull trum vel sanctarum vel turbulentarum personarum scandala deuitanda liberiùs improbare non audeo I dare not freely as I should improoue many scandals of this kind because of some either holy or troublesome persons that fauour them and therefore no maruell though the religion of Antichrist being a compound heresie of many simples grew on soft and faire and plodded still forward by little and by little without any resistance till the time came it should bee disclosed if the light of truth had been suddenly eclipsed the ancient Fathers and their adherents would haue laboured to restore it but this eclipse growing slowly by small peeces they knew not the deepenesse of Satan Reuel 2.24 Math. 13.25 c. and so gaue the tares of Antichrist leaue to growe so long among the wheat til they were past weeding neuerthelesse looke the preface of Caluines Institutions to the French King and there you shall finde the testimonies of Acacius Spiridion Ambrose Austine Epiphanius Gelasius Chrysostome Calixtus Cyprian Apollonius Paphnutius and others against outward braueries abstinence from flesh monkish idlenesse painted Images suffrages for the dead transubstantiation the halfe communion vnwritten determinatiōs set fastings forbidding mariage mans weak iudgment and such like flowers of Antichrists garland and if these had sayd nothing yet there were many other Fathers besides these and whether they tooke penne in hand and wrote more fully against the seuerall branches of Poperie as they grew it were hard to tell yet may wee affirme it with as good probabilitie as you may denie it howsoeuer it be the wisedome of God hauing so decree to punish our vnthankefulnesse the doctrine of Rome Reuel 17.9 which is the seat of Antichirst grew and increased a long time but thankes bee to God it is now in such a consumption as eats vp the flesh of it 2. Thes 2.8 and wee haue sufficient warrant that it shall bee abolished Neither is this increase and multiplication of errour till it conquer sinceritie and truth and breake forth into open absurdities so strange a matter in the Church of God Thus you may read in the Valentine Councell In proemio Quorundā patrum vtilis fuit religiosa suggestio retractandi de his quae nec recipere possumus ob ecclesiae sanctitatem nec tamen vsquequaque consuetudinis causa damnare ita enim per omnes ecclesias eiusmodi vitiorum germen inoleuit vt ad plena remedia non facilis sit recursus Profitable and religious is the motion of certain Fathers concerning retracting those thinges which because of the holynesse of the Church we may not receiue and yet by reason of custome dare