vniuersally and haue been alwaies vsed in the Churche Secondely that thei bee not contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles conteined in the holie scriptures for then it is moste certaine thei are no Traditions of the Apostles for thei did not deliuer one thyng in writyng and a contrary thyng in Tradition Thirdly that whatsoeuer Tradition of the Apostles is not conteined in the scriptures although wee knewe it came from the Apostles it is lawfull vpon good consideration to alter it For seyng that all necessarie matters are conteigned in the scriptures whatsouer thei deliuered whiche is not conteined in the scriptures was but temporall might be chaunged aswell as the decree De sanguine et suffocato of blood strangled And that we ought not to receiue whatsoeuer is commended to vs as a Traditiō of the Apostles maie appere by these exāples Irenaeus was a manne that liued nere to the age of the Apostles for he sawe as he hymself doeth testifie Polycarpus the disciple of sainct Ihon. And he declareth that it was a Tradition commonly receiued in Asia as of sainct Ihon the Apostle and of other of the Apostles that our sauiour Christe liued fiftie yeres whiche is contrary to the truthe of the Gospell Irenaeus libri 2. Cap. xxxv If suche a fable could bee credited for an Apostolike Tradition so sone after the Apostles departure what maie bee iudged of those that in two hundreth three hundreth fiue hundreth sixe hundreth eight hundreth yeres after the Apostles were not heard of but sodainlie were sette out in the worlde as Traditions of the Apostles Eusebius also reporteth libri v. Cap. xviii that it was alledged as a Traditiō of the Apostles that Christ commaunded theim not to departe from Hierusalem twelue yeres after his ascension whiche is manifestly contrary to the the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Tertuliane after he was fallen into the errour of the Montanistes voucheth the Tradition of the Apostles against the Catholikes whom he calleth Psychicos that is animales naturall men and not spirituall Ieronime in Euangel Math. libr. 4. Cap. xxv declareth that it was a Tradition emong the Iewes that Christ should come at midnight whervpon he gathereth that the Tradition of the Apostles was deriued that on Easter eue the people should not depart out of the churche before midnight but tary there for the commyng of christ A likely matter that the Apostles would make a Tradition of the erroure of the Iewes The same Ieronyme vpon the firste Chapiter of Agge saieth verie well of the Apostolicall Traditions Sed alia quae absque auctoritate testimonijs scripturarum quasi Apostolica traditione sponte reperiunt atque confingunt percutit gladius dei But other thinges also speakyng of heretikes whiche thei finde out and feigne of them selues without the aucthoritie and testimonies of the scriptures as it were by Tradition of the Apostles the sworde of God dooeth strike By these examples and testimonies it is manifeste that wée must not by and by receiue what soeuer is saied to be a Tradition of the Apostles The Papiste Fowerth saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium in speakyng of these thinges whiche in diuerse partes are obserued in christes Churche diuersely he geueth that certeine and sure rule that if thei be not against the professed faieth of christes churche nor against the good liuyng and maners of men but haue in theim some maner of encouragement of a better life wheresoeuer saieth he we dooe knowe anie such thing diuersely to be vsed we shal not only not disalow theim but also folow thē with praise and innouation of life So that the infirmitie and weakenes of some men be not let therunto when otherwise if more profette maie come therby vnto the good then hurte vnto the weake offended therby sine dubitatione faciēda sunt without doubte saieth he al suche although thei be diuerse and in diuerse places diuersely obserued yet they ought to be continued and kepte The aunswere Wée agree with sainct Augustine that suche Ceremonies as are instituted for order and comelinesse sake beyng diuers in diuerse churches if thei be not contrary to the Scriptures are to bée obserued of suche as remaine in those Churches And what this should make either for you or againste vs I dooe not sée at all For your Ceremonies are voide of edifiyng vnorderly vndecent for the churche of Christ and then the opinion of merite and satisfaction that you ioigne vnto them beyng contrary to the Christian faithe and the aucthoritie of the Scriptures maketh thē to be vtterly abhominable Furthermore when you make them essentiall partes of the religion and worshippe of GOD our sauiour Christe hym self out of the Prophete Esaie doeth vtterly condemne thē For GOD will not be worshipped with the doctrine Traditions and preceptes of menne Matth. xv Thus neither your ten reasōs out of the scriptures nor your ten argumentes out of the doctours nor your fower bulwarkes out of S. Augustine are able to defende your Popishe churche from ouerthrowe whiche if she take vpon her to encounter with the truthe muste needes bée discomfited and come to vtter destruction The Papiste Besides that this refourmed Englishe churche hath no agreaunce with the catholike churche of christe the religion thereof doeth onely stande of negatiues like as it shall appeare in the processe followyng The aunswere Besides that your Rhetorike in railyng on our Churche is verie vnreasonable your Sophistrie it self in quarellyng againste vs is voide of sufficient subtiltie not onely to defende it self but at leaste wise to hide it self For what impudente kinde of arguing call you this by enumeration of a fewe particulers to conclude any vniuersall proposition These newe reformators deny twentie thynges whiche the Papistes affirme ergo their religion standeth onely of negatiues Maie not I likewise reason the Papistes denie fourtie thynges that the Protestauntes affirme Ergo the Religion of Papistes standeth onely vpon negatiues Furthermore whē euery affirmatiue proposition implieth a negation of his contradictorie and euery negatiue propositiō importeth an affirmation of his contradictorie you maie as well saie that it standeth altogether vpon affirmatiues as you dooe vpon negatiues Like as in the tenne commaūdementes of GOD onely twoo are affirmatiue and eight are negatiue wherein all the duetie of a Christian manne consisteth you might reason that Gods commaundementes stande almoste all of negatiues as though God did onely tell vs what we should not doe and did not teach vs what wée should dooe like as you conclude afterward vpō the sale of Clare the Butchers horse but that right reason telleth vs that the prohibitiue Commaūdementes are also preceptiue and the preceptiue commaundementes are also prohibitiue for he whiche forbiddeth adulteterie commaundeth a chaste life and he whiche commaundeth to honour our parentes forbiddeth vs to disobey the same But because faithe whiche is the foundation of religion is an affirmation of those thinges whiche are beleued
is your blasphemous doctrine that me doe moste abhorre and your Ceremonies we hate the more for your doctrines sake You should therefore stande to the defence of your doctrine and not fight so egerly for your Ceremonies if you would vse good pollicie Nowe for these obseruations I haue aunswered before sufficiently by whiche as by the reste of myne answeres I truste it shall appeere to euery manne of indifferente iudgemente that notwithstandyng all your twentie argumentes of bothe sortes our Churche hath suche conformitie and agremente with the primitiue Churche of Christe that she maie bee truely compted a member of the same and partaker in the communion of all the sainctes of God. The Papiste Of what force streingth and estimatiō those thinges are of whiche haue been vsed in christes catholike churche it shal appeare by these testimonies of sainct Augustine followyng The aunswere Before you had spoken of the force of those matters you should haue doen well to haue considered the force of your argumentes whiche howe stronge so euer those thinges bee are to weake to proue that whiche you propounde namely that our Churche hath none agreaunce at all with the Primitiue Churche of Christe But seyng you will needes sette for the dignitie of these matters wee will seuerally consider all these fower argumentes The Papiste Firste sainct Augustine writyng againste the Donatistes saieth looke what thinges the vniuersall church of christe obserue and hath at all tymes obserued if the same bee not ordeined by any generall counsell thē it ought most firmely to be beleued that it came to vs onely by the auctoritie and tradition of the Apostles The aunswere Although I knowe what to thinke of vnwritten Traditions yet if you bee able to proue that al these thinges wherof you speake the vniuersall Churche of Christ doeth and hath alwaies obserued I will yelde to you that thei are the Tradition of the Apostles accordyng to your testimonie whiche if you canne not doe as I am well assured you will neuer bee able to dooe it by your owne reason and aucthoritie we neede not holde theim for Traditions of the Apostles nor yet decrees of generall Counsailes The Papiste Second sainct Augustine in hys Epistle ad Casulanum saieth how in all these thinges whereof the Scriptures hath made no certeine determination the maner of the people of god ▪ or decrees of our elders must be taken and holden as a lawe to gouerne our selues and in the same Epistle he maketh mention how the Sondaie because it is not fasted whiche fastyng is a Sacrifice acceptable to God ▪ Therefore saieth he the Sondaie maie not bee celebrated and kepte without an other Sacrifice whiche is acceptable to God. The aunswere The Scripture hath determined of all necessarie articles of faithe and againste all superstitious opinions and Ceremonies And these thynges you speake of we proued to bee suche therefore in theim by Saincte Augustines rule neither the custome of people nor the decrees of elders muste take place but the aucthoritie of Goddes woorde But of suche thynges as bee variable Ceremonies for edification order and comelinesse sake diuers particuler Churches maie make particuler decrees whiche are nothyng preiuditiall to the vniuersall Churche of Christ whiche is the principall argumente that saincte Augustine handeleth in that 86. Epistle to Casulanus where he defendeth the custome of the moste parte of the Churche againste the custome of the Churche of Rome As I haue touched before whiche thyng of you will in no wise bee allowed And as concernyng the Sacrifice he speaketh of to bee celebrated on Sondaie he meaneth not the propiciatorie Sacrifice of the Masse as perhaps you would seme to inferre But the celebration of the communion for thus he writeth in the same Epistle against Vrbicus Dicit cessisse pani pecus tanquam nesciens tunc in domini mensa panes propositionis poni solere nunc se de agni immaculati corpore partem sumere dicit cessisse poculo sanguinem nō cogitans etiam nunc se accipere in poculo sanguinem He saith that the Shepe hath giuen place to the breade as though he were ignoraunt that then also the Shewbread was vsed to bée sette on the Lordes boarde and that now also he taketh parte of the bodie of the immaculate Lambe he saieth that bloodde hath giuen place to the Cuppe not consideryng that now also he receiueth bloode in the Cuppe These woordes declare bothe that the Sacrifice was nothyng but the Communion and also that the wine is none otherwise called bloodde then the bread is called a lambe and that the bread in nature and substaunce is suche as was the Shewbreade in whiche was no transubstantiation and thirdely the necessitie of the Communion in both kindes if this analogie of Augustine must stande wherfore sainct Augustine in this Epistle maketh little for your purpose The Papiste Thirde saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium saieth that the thinges whiche we doe obserue throughout the whole worlde beyng not written but deliuered vnto vs either from the Apostles or generall counselles the aucthoritie wherof is notable and as of theim receiued ought to be obserued as the yerely remembrance and feastes of the passion of Christe of his ascention into heauen and of the cōmyng of the holy ghost whiche are celebrate in the Churche of Christe or any other like thing whiche is vniuersally obserued from whatsoeuer it first came fro and therefore saieth sainct Augustine in the same Epistle to reason or dispute why the same thinge ought to be obserued whiche of long tyme hath been obserued throughout the whole world by the auctoritie of christes church insolentissima insania est it is a poincte saieth he of extreme madnes And therfore saieth saincte Aug. the chaunge made of so long a custome yea though the same shoulde be verie profitable yet by the newnes thereof it doeth vexe and trouble the Churche of Christe it is made vnprofitable vnfruictful and finally hurtfull to the church of christ and for an example therof he doth there alledge how the disciples of christ did receiue the body and blood of christe not fastinge but after supper is the vniuersall church of christe therefore to be reproued or the custome therof to be chaunged whereby wee do in the same receiue the body and blood of christe fastyng and that for a more reuerence therunto in preferryng the foode of the soule before the foode of the bodie doubtles so for to doe it shoulde bee after the minde of Augustine both hurtfull vnto the churche of christ and a greate ponct of madnesse The aunswere This testimonie in effecte is the same with the former Sainct Augustin would haue suche Traditions as haue alwaies been vsed in the Churche to bee supposed that either thei came from the Apostles or from the generell Counsailes but here wee haue diligently to consider that wée admitte not all suche thynges as are called Traditions but onely suche as are
the Arians did agree with the Christen menne in theim bothe as in all Sacramentes and in all poinctes of praiyng sauing that the Arians did sing Gloria patri in filio and the Christian menne Gloria patri filio c. And therfore and for that onely poinct Ihō Chrysostome then beyng Bishop of Constantinople did appoincte vnto the christian men a seperate place and maner of praier from them as it appeareth in the sixth of the Historie Ecclesiastike And therefore the notable doctour S. Augustine doth conclude on thys wise saiyng that they shall not communicate in Sacramētes with vs whose doctrine we cannot approue and allowe The aunswere Your third consideration standeth vppon a foolishe fallation of Sophistrie called petitio principij whiche is whē a man will take that as true whiche his aduersarie will not graunte hym As you doe in this your argument where you take that for a true principle whiche you shall neuer be able to proue namely that we are Heretikes and Schismatikes And so you committe double folie Firste in prouyng that so diligentely whiche no manne will deny whiche is that a manne ought not to communicate in religion with Heretikes and secondly in bringing no proofe at all of that which all your aduersaries wil deny namely that thei are Heretikes or Schismatikes For you must first prooue that thei are suche before you can proue that you ought to auoide their societie The Papiste The fowerth consideration is that the receiuyng of this new booke of seruice is a condemnation of the olde wherby is taken away 5. of the. 7. Sacramentes the reall presence of Christes body in the Sacramente of the alter the sacrifice of the masse many traditions of the Apostles as the holiyng of the Fonte oile and Chrisma in Baptisme and Confirmation the making of the signe of the Crosse praiers for the deade and vnto sainctes All sacramentall and godly cerimonies frequented in the vniuersal churche of Christe and brougt into this realme with the faithe of Christe by S. Augustine and here by hym established as suer signes and tokens of christian faieth like as the holy S. Bede witnesseth in his firste boke de gestis Anglorum in the 25.29.30 chapiters beside that all the foresaide thinges haue been alwaie approued vsed and allowed throughout the vniuersal church of christ And therfore saieth S. Augustine all these thinges whiche haue been receiued in the vniuersall Churche of Christe and approued by the vse and consente therof ought not to be ouerthrowen nor yet to be chaūged by the iudgemente of one priuate person be his learnyng and liuyng neuer so good nor yet by the Bishoppes of any one prouince or countrie when thereby they shoulde breake the vnitie of Gods spirite whiche is the chief treasure in his Churche commended by our sauiour Christe vnto his Apostles wishynge and praiynge the same vnitie to be amongest theim whiche was betwixt him and God Ioan 17 the father The Apostle S. Paule tought the Corinthians aboue all thinges to obserue this vnitie and willed the Romaines that with one minde and one mouth they shoulde glorifie god And in the Epistle to the Ephesians he besought theim most entirely to obserue this vnitie Again S. Augustine saieth these thinges whiche the vniuersall churche doth teache therfore are to be obserued and kepte of all menne because the churche which is the spouse of Christ hath the full aucthoritie of her husband Christ and suche gouernement also of the holy ghost that she cannot consent but to true thinges nor she cannot commaunde but onely suche thinges whiche are both holy holsome and good And farther the same S. Augustine saieth that in the ministratiō of the Sacramentes and in the manner of praiyng vsed of Preestes there must be an vniformitie obserued in Christes catholike Churche that by their Lawe and maner of praiyng there may be established the lawe of beleuyng And lest that the lawe and maner of praiyng being chaunged may also bring foorthe a chaunge and alteration of faieth like as it hath so proued in thys realme Beside that S. Ambrose doth thinke that there can not bee the faieth where Schisme is for albeit that schismatikes may haue faieth towardes God yet they cannot haue faieth towarde the Churche of God whom they suffer to bee dismembred and discerped in peeces For wheras our sauiour Christe suffered for his Churche and the Churche is the mysticall bodie of Christe how therfore may thei haue faith in christ by whom his Passion is made frustrate and his mysticall bodie drawen in peeces And therefore woulde not we shoulde chaunge an order set or a custome of Christes churche For albeit saieth he the reason or cause of a custome may be sought for yet must it be so sought for that the custome thereby be not infirmed or broken for the searche may not bee made vnto destruction but vnto aedification wherby thou maist better obserue the custome when thou arte assured of the cause and reason therof I do praise thee saieth Tertuliane whiche firste doeth beleue the custome to be obserued before it hath learned the cause and reason why and wherfore The aunswere In your fowerth consideration you should haue likewise considered that suche thynges as are graunted of bothe partes nede small proofe and that those matters whiche are in controuersie should be substancially cōfirmed As for example How necessarie vnitie is for the Churche of Christe no manne doubteth so it bee in truthe and not in falshed for there is vnitie emong the mooste wicked but not in truthe and honestie On the other side that there be fiue sacramentes more then the boke alloweth that there is a carnall presence in the Sacrament of the Lordes bodie and bloude that there is or ought to be a Sacrifice in the masse ye bring not one worde of proof Concernyng Ceremonies whiche you call traditions of the Apostles you saie in deede a little although to little purpose and yet so confusely and out of all good order that you seme rather to confounde then to instructe your simple reader for what an hochpotte is this in the middes of your Sacramentes and Sacramentalles to choppe in praiers for the deade and inuocation of sainctes whiche bée articles of doctrine and not Ceremoniall obseruations Againe when you haue rehersed by name diuers Ceremonies as oile and chrisme in Baptisme your maner of confirmation the signe of the Crosse and all other your Sacramentalls and Ceremonies you bryng in certain broken and vnperfecte sentences of Doctours whiche speake generally of Ceremonies vsed in the churche in their age and doe not shew that your Ceremonies were vsed then in suche maner as you vse them now which is a meere mockerie of your readers For wheras you doe comprehende thē all vnder the name of Traditions of the Apostles if you be a man of suche learning as you would seme to be I dare saie in your behalfe you will bee ashamed to come to triall of this poincte that
you vse all those Ceremonies that were vsed in the tyme of those doctors whose names you alledge or that al your Ceremonies were vsed in the tymes of those Doctours vpon whose aucthorities you would seme to grounde But to cōsider your groundes particularly that Augustine whom you call saincte Augustine was an vnlearned Monke as appereth by his questions propounded to Pope Gregorie that came into this land to corrupte the sinceritie of faithe whiche the Britons had receiued euen from the Apostles aboute sixe hundred yeres after Christe and liued twoo hundred yeres at the least after the aunciente father sainct Augustine bushoppe of Hippo in Affrica of whose pride and folie you maie reade in Galfridus Monumeth Matheus Westmin and others And truthe it is that muche superstition and false doctrine he brought in and by tyrannie mainteined as our stories witnesse but not all that you holde at this tyme for your religion in all pointes is nothyng so old And as for Beda he liued longe after Augustine But where you affirme that all youre Ceremonies haue been alwaies approued vsed and allowed throughout the vniuersall churche of Christe I can no longer forbeare you you saie more then all the Papistes in the worlde will be able to proue Touchyng sainct Augustine although the place by you alledged is not to be foūd in his vndoubted writyngs yet I confesse that he speaketh fauourably of Ceremonies cōmonly vsed to be quietly suffered and borne withall rather then vnitie to bee broken But what maketh this for your Ceremonies whiche you teache to bee necessarie for saluation and meritorious whiche if thei had been in saincte Augustines tyme or that men had so taught of theim there is no doubte but he would haue vtterly misliked theim as hereafter in place more conueniente I shall plainly declare In your next sentēce out of sainct Augustine also I must néedes tel you you plaie the suttle Marchaunt to sett for the counterfeict ware in steede of true marchandice for Augustine neuer was of that opinion that the Church hath the full aucthoritie of her husbande Christ and such gouernemente of the holy Ghost that she cannot consente but vnto true thynges neither hath he any suche wordes in al his workes For it is well knowen that the boke de dogmaticis ecclesiasticis out of which this sentence séemeth to bee borrowed is not accompted among the Authenticall workes of Augustine but forged of muche later time and falsly fathered vpon S. Augustine to steale credite from his name whiche it could not obtain of it self And yet if this saiyng were graunted to bée true it perteineth nothyng to your church which is the Sinagoge of Sathan and not the Churche of Christe Concernyng your thirde testimonie of sainct Augustine I can hardely thinke that saincte Augustine would haue an vniformitie of Ceremonies in praier and administratiō of the Sacramentes throughout all the worlde because I am able to shewe his aucthoritie to the contrary as in his 118. epistle to Ianuarius he discourseth at large And whereas you saie that the chaunge of the maner of praiyng hath broughte in chaunge of faithe in this lande it is cleane contrary for the diuersitie of faithe teacheth vs to praie otherwise then you vse for inuocation commeth of faithe as witnesseth sainct Paule Roma 10. The testimonie of saincte Ambrose although you declare not where a manne should finde it maketh little for your purpose For we agrée with hym that Schismatikes are to be abhorred but wée will not graunt to you that wée are Schismatikes as long as wée knowe that wée are members of Christe The testimonie of Tertuliane concernyng custome if it bee faithfully rehearsed of you I se not what it maketh for you For although laudable customes maie be obserued without searchyng their beginnyng what is that to your Ceremonies whiche containe manifeste impietie For you your self will not bee so madde to allowe all customes seyng many are contrary to the worde of god And although Tertuliane was to muche addicted to the maintainyng of Ceremonies and customes in some places yet otherwhiles he either expoundeth his meanyng or correcteth his errour as in his booke De virginibus velandis where he writeth in these woordes Hoc exigere veritatem cui nemo praescribere potest non spacium temporum non patrocinia personarum non priuilegium regionum Ex his enim fere consuetudo initium ab aliqua ignorantia vel simplicitate sortita in vsum per successionem corroboratur ita aduersus veritatē vindicatur Sed dominus noster Christus veritatē se nō consuetudinē cognominauit Si semper christus prior omnibus aeque veritas sempiterna antiqua res viderint ergo quibus nouū est quod sibi vetus est Haereses non tam nouitas quam veritas reuincit Quodcūque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo That is to saie This the truthe requireth againste whiche no man can prescribe not the continuance of tyme not the defence of persones not the priuiledge of any regions For of these custome takyng her beginnyng for the moste parte through ignoraunce and simplicitie is confirmed into an vsage by succession and so is bosted of against the truthe But Christ our Lorde called hymself the truthe and not the custome if Christ were alwaies and before all truthe is as eternall and aunciente a thyng as he Lette them bee well aduised therefore to whom that is compted new whiche of hym is coumpted old Heresies saieth he not so muche their noueltie as truthe doeth conuict for what soeuer soūdeth against the truthe that shal be an heresie yea though it be an old custome By this testimonie of Tertuliane euery man maie see what he thought of old custome when it was alledged to deface the truthe and of what customes he speaketh when he commendeth customes namely suche as agree with the truthe and not euery blinde superstitious Ceremonie wherof a greate nomber were inuented many hundreth yeres after his death The Papiste The fifte consideration is that wheras I am not perswaded that the forme of praiers set forth in the saide boke is lawful and catholike my comyng to heare it shoulde bee an acte not onely contrarie to mine owne conscience and also to my damnable sinne but also my comyng therto should be to the weake and ignorant an occasion of ruine and deadly sinne which is called scandalum infirmorum and I am bound by the words of our sauiour Christ to auoide that saiyng wo be to that man by whom any suche offence or slaunder shall vprise and come For of my comyng thether either they muste iudge that I am a dissembler in doyng against my cōscience or els they must iudge that I am in cōscience perswaded thereunto And therby gather by mine example a likyng of that thing to be good and holy which in my very conscience I do vtterly condemne and that this slaunder shall not be so taken
of Yorke and the churche of Bangor had some diuersitie in their maner of seruing God and yet you will saie thei were all one Popishe Churche But to the purpose you recite more names then there be diuersities of opinions For Zwinglius and Caluine in the matter of the Sacrament whiche you shoote at are all one and Luther differeth from them And yet the difference is not so great but that thei bee all of one Catholike Churche because thei agree in the onely foundation Iesus Christe and in all opinions that are necessary to Saluation although Luther in his opinion of the Sacramente as a man was deceiued And that diuersities of opinions so longe as the principall groundes of faithe bee obserued vncorrupted doeth not make diuersitie of churches you maie easily see by this example S. Cypriā and all the Churches of Affrica were in this error that such as were baptised by heretikes should be baptised again which was a very perilous errour Cornelius Stephanus the Bishops of Rome with the Churches of Europe were in the contrary opinion And yet no man euer refused S. Cypriane to bee a member of the Catholike churche nor iudged the churches of Affrica that followed his errour to bee of any other thē of the vniuersall church of Christ emong whom were many martyres and godly men which liued died in the same error Now cōpare Cypriane Luther the one erring in the Sacrament of Baptisme the other in the Sacramente of the Supper if the errour of th' one did not separate hym from the communiō of the catholike church no more cā the error of the other Whiche thing if it were well weighed would remoue that stōblyng blocke that troubleth many weake persones but can hinder no learned man cōcernyng the controuersie of Luther and Zwinglius The third reason is that we are departed from the Churche of Geneua because we ascribe supreme gouernement in Ecclesiasticall matters to the Quéenes highnes Firste we must bee bolde to tell you that as we reuerence and honour all particulare Churches where true religion is established so we doe not grounde our self vpon either the opinion or custome of any one but onely vpon the worde of God and so farre foorthe to followe euery one as thei come neare to the same rule But whereas you would sette that excellente godly Churche of Geneua at variaunce with vs aboute the supremacie your childishe quarrellyng shall easily appeare to all menne You alledge Caluine againste vs in twoo places one in his Institutions an other in his Comentarie of the Prophet Amos. A man in deede from whom we would bee lothe to dissente excepte it were for a greate cause A manne of suche godlie learnyng and profounde knoweledge in diuinitie as all the Papistes that euer were are not worthie to carrie his bookes after hym But before I aunswer you I muste admonishe you that either your copies whiche came to my handes were verie muche corrupted or els you haue recited those places by hearesaie rather then by your owne obseruatiō Your copies sendeth me to the viij Chapiter of his Institutions namyng no booke and to the fowerth Chapiter of Amos whereas that you speake of the one place is in the fowerth boke and twelue Chapiter of his Institutions the other in the seuen Chapiter of Amos. So that in deede it was more labour to seeke your places then to make aunswere to them Concerning the firste I meruaile you were not ashamed to alledge Caluine againste vs where he saieth that Kynges and Princes are subiecte to the discipline of the Churche as Theodosius was content to be excommunicated by saincte Ambrose for the murther he had committed in Thessalonica which none of vs denieth and doe not remember how substauncially he proueth that godlie Princes haue aucthoritie and ought to maintain true religion by lawes decrees and iudgementes whiche is all the supreme gouernemente that wee ascribe to the Quéenes highnes And as for the place of Caluine vpon Amos the truthe is this Caluine findeth fault not with kyng Hēry but with those that did ascribe that title vnto hym and sheweth for what reason he misliked the same Not that he denied his lawfull aucthoritie whiche was meant by that title of all his godly and true subiectes but because Steuen Gardener bishop of Winchester by false vnderstandyng thereof declared that he vnderstode nothing therby but the tyrannie whiche the Pope vsurpeth ouer the churche to be translated vnto the kyng And therfore at a solemne cōference at Ratisbone in Germanie after the Popes aucthoritie by acte of Parliament was abolished out of the realme he defended all Popishe religion whiche remained vnreformed to bee good and godlie because it was established by the kings aucthoritie who was supreme head of the churche He disputed not by reasons neither cared he for the testimonies of scriptures but saied it was in the kynges power to abrogate all Lawes and establishe what he thought good in the churche as to forbidde Priestes marriage to forbidde laie menne the vse of the Cuppe in the Churche and all other suche matters he saied were in the kynges aucthoritie This he saied of the Kynges power abroade and howe he abused that noble Prince at home to make the Acte of sixe Articles and other thynges of like effect there be many yet aliue that can remember But seeyng this title of supremacie dooeth so muche offende you I praie you lette me demaunde one question of you Who did first inuent it here in England Or who did first ascribe it to kyng Henry Was it not the whole Popishe Cleargie of Englande when thei were caste in the Premunire for mainteinyng the power Legantine of Cardinall Wolsey and submittyng theim selues vnto the Kynge they flattered hym with that title and offered hym a greate somme of money for their pardon as witnesseth Halle and Grafton in their histories and ther be yet aliue many that can remēber it So that if there were any faulte in it you should blame them and not vs for it For so farforthe as beyng rightly vnderstoode it declareth the lawfull power of the Prince wee did and doe yelde vnto it but not in Steuen Gardiners sence whiche Caluin in the place by you alledged doeth cōfute After this you require vs to shewe you a Churche where vnto you maie resorte whiche hath continued euen since Christ whiche if it can not bee shewed you conclude in th' ende that Christ had no churche or els our Churche is not Christes Churche Againe where our Church was fiftie or sixtie yeres agon If a manne had asked of Elias where the churche of God was in his tyme he could not haue made aunswere and yet God had his Churche in Elias tyme The Churche is not alwayes apparaunte to the iyes of the blynde worlde in whiche she is a straunger but is compelled sometymes to flie into the wildernesse out of the sight of men by the persecutiō of the deuill and his members as
it is Prophesied in the xij Chapiter of sainct Ihons Reuelation And yet for fiftie or sixtie yere agone it had been no harde matter to haue shewed you diuers members of our Churche bothe in Englande in Bohemia as th' historie of the church declareth at large Also in Fraunce at Merindoll and about Lyōs but these you will saie agreed not with vs in all poinctes but I will aunswere you thei agréed in the cheifest poinctes necessary to eternall saluation For whatsoeuer we are able to shewe for our Churche I am sure you are neuer able to shewe your self for your churche that whiche you require vs to shewe namely a churche that hath continued from this tyme vpwarde vnto the Apostles that taught vniformely and in all poinctes the doctrine that the Popishe Churche nowe teacheth Whiche thyng when you haue performed I will doe the like for oure Churche In the meane time that whiche is a sufficiente rule to finde out the true Churche by the iudgement of Saincte Augustine I will declare vnto you In his booke the vnitate ecclesiae Capi. 2. Inter nos autem Donatistat quaestio est vbi sit ecclesia Quid ergo facturi sumus In verbis nostris eam quaesituri sumus an in verbis capitis sui domini nostri Iesu Christi Puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quaerere debemus qui veritas est optimè nouit corpus suum Betwene vs and the Donatistes saieth saincte Augustine the question is where the churche should bée What shall we doe then shall we seke her in our wordes or in the woordes of her heade our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke that rather in his wordes we ought to seke her which is the truthe and beste knoweth his own bodie And in the. xvj chapiter of the same booke he writeth thus of the Donatistes Vtrum ipsi ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarū scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant That is whether thei haue the churche on their side let theim shewe none otherwise but by the Canonicall bookes of holy scriptures Many other suche testimonies are in S. Augustine by whiche it is plaine that he geueth this infallible rule to knowe the true churche to examine the doctrine therof onely by the scriptures But wheras you saie that Anabaptistes Libertines and Arians pretende the word of god and the primitiue Churche what meane you therby that we should forsake the worde of god the Primitiue churche by whiche all heretikes haue béen cōfuted what soeuer thei pretended For though heretikes pretende the scriptures yet onely by the scriptures thei are to be cōfuted though thei appeale to the iudgemente of the primitiue church yet by the primitiue church thei are condemned for heretikes I maie as well say that Arianes Libertines and Anabaptistes boste them selues to be the true Catholike Churche therefore wee must not allowe the true catholike churche It is pitie to see menne that would be coumpted wise and learned to reason so fondly and vnlearnedly For of all other reasons it is the vainest and feeblest shift that the Papistes vse to flie frō the scriptures to the aucthoritie of the Churche in confutation of heresies For there was neuer yet heresie did arise but there was as greate controuersie of the Churche as of the opinion for euery heretike boasteth as well of the Churche as of the scriptures but when all is dooen his bragges of bothe muste bee beaten doune onely by the scriptures But because you make so proude vauntes that you will so plainlie proue that our Churche hath none agreans with the primitiue churche of Christ in discourse of that controuersie with you I will sette for the bothe what is the Primitiue churche and how we agree therewith and I doubte not but that I shal bee able by the grace of God bothe to iustifie our cause againste your false accusations and also to ouerthrowe youre falshodde whiche you haue heaped vppe to ouerwhelme the truthe And as I haue confuted your sixe considerations which vnto you seme of greate importaunce so by Gods helpe I shall auoide all other youre calumniations in whiche with some subtiltie but more impudencie and moste of all impietie you goe aboute to intangle the consciences of suche as bee ignorante and vnlearned to withdrawe their obedience ▪ from the godly lawes of this realme whiche are established for the mainteinyng of Gods true Religion and the abolishyng of all Idolatrie and superstition The Papiste Argumentes gathered out of the Scriptures prouyng that this late reformed Englishe churche hath none agreans with the Primitiue churche of Christ. The aunswere The very title of your argumentes declareth of what force youre argumentes are Your reasons are tenne in noumber whiche if thei were all graūted to be true yet foloweth not this conclusion that our Churche hath no agreance with the Primitiue Churche of Christe excepte you would affirme that all the doctrine of the Primitiue Churche were comprehended in these tenne poinctes Again your owne Popishe Churche differeth in these tenne poinctes as muche from the Primitiue Churche as ours therefore by your owne Logike I will conclude that your Popish churche hath no agreance with the church of Christ. 1. For neither you haue all thinges common 2. neither dooe you sell your houses and landes to putte the price in common 3. Neither doe you make diuision to euery manne accordyng to his necessitie 4. Neither are all mēbers of your Churche so prouided for that none dooe begge 5. Neither doe you baptise onely in the name of Christe 6. Neither dooe you giue the holy ghost by laiyng on your handes 7. Neither dooe you restore theim to health whom you annoincte with oile beyng sicke 8. Neither dooe you make open confession of your synnes 9. Neither dooe you celebrate the Sacramente after supper 10. Neither dooe you abstaine from bloodde and strangled therefore by your owne reason you haue no agreance with the Primitiue Churche of Christe Or if you maie haue any agreance these differences notwithstanding why maie not we the same differences nothyng lettyng vs haue sufficient agremente therewith You see that either your argument is nothyng worthe or els you haue as little agreance with the Primatiue churche as we Your only refuge is this that it is not necessary for you to haue any agreance with the primitiue Churche And that is the opinion of all Papistes whiche is diligently to be noted that you disclaime of al title of the Primitiue Churche whiche you holde was but an infante and by addition of your doctrine and Ceremonies is growne to bee of womannes state As though Christ maried his Churche when she was vnder age and so the matrimonie was not ratified and consumated before the Pope had nourtured her in his schole vntill she came to yeres of discretion For it is as lawfull for me so to inferre vppon your allegorie as for you so to allegorise of her But that you maie the better vnderstande what
confections Neither did the Apostles by that decree commaunde any fastyng but onely abstinence from bloode and strangled beastes whiche was offensiue to the Iewes And for suche ende of auoidyng offences or for ciuile pollicie we can and doe admitte abstinence from some kindes of meates and drinkes but not for Religions sake neither accoumptyng any suche abstinence to bee fastyng But true fastyng to tame the bodie and to bryng it into subiection to humble our selues to make vs more apte to praie we commende and exhorte menne vnto it although we make no tyrannicall lawes to entangle any mannes conscience with all Your féeble kinde of reasonyng should not incurre so greate reprehension if you had not as well in your title as in youre conclusion made so bolde bragges of your plaine proofes whiche be so plaine in dede that euery manne maie see thei haue no force at all in theim And whereas you threaten to shewe that wée dooe all thynges contrary to the primitiue Churche you doe well to sate it shall bée performed in suche sorte as you haue proued already that wee haue none agreaunce with the same For he that hath experience howe pithely you haue reasoned out of the scriptures can not but hope that you will dispute euen as profoundly out of the Doctours The Papiste Argumentes gathered out of the holy Fathers and aunciente doctours prouyng that this late reformed Englishe Churche hath no agreance with the primitiue church of Christe The aunswere A man maie easely perceiue that you delight in greate nombers For as before in your former argumentes one matter was cutte into fower partes to fill vp the nomber so likewise in these argumentes without order or dispositiō diuers things are twise or thrise repeated As dipping in baptisme oile and Chrisme and crossyng whereas if you would haue followed any order all these should haue made but one argument of Ceremonies or Traditiōs Or if you would néedes diuide theim into their particulers you should haue made thirtie or fourtie argumentes of theim and not tenne onely But now how well you difine the primitiue Churche as I haue touched before a manne maie meruaile to see sometyme you alledge twoo hundreth somtyme three hundreth somtyme fower hundreth sometymes sixe hundreth and at length you come almost to eighte hundreth yeres after Christe when you alledge the seconde Counsaile of Nice whiche was holden in the yere of our Lorde seuen hundred eightie and one So that the greater halfe of all the tyme that hath passed from Christes ascention vntil this daie you would haue vs to take for the primitiue churche But you know full well that none of vs would allowe all that tyme for the primitiue Churche especially when wee speake of that state whiche we woulde haue to bee a paterne and example to all churches Onely your purpose was to amase your vnlearned frendes to whom you made this apology with the names of so manie aunciente fathers as you rehease and yet like a wise man you note but fewe places where a man should finde their aucthorities as you alledge theim lest you should happen to be discredited Whiche must needes be compted fraudulent dealyng because you note some wherof no learned manne will doubte and passe ouer so many whiche séeme somwhat straunge that any suche thinges should be to those that parhappes haue reade as muche of the aunciente doctours as you But vnto all your tenne as gumentes I wil first oppose one answere whiche is sufficiente to take theim all awaie namely that suche thinges as you bringe in to haue been vsed of the primitiue churche were not in the first churche of the Apostles whiche is moste properly called the primitiue churche but in the latter and more corrupte age and the further from the Apostles the farther from sinceritie Beside that of Ceremonies not manifestly impious vsed in the aunciente churche after the Apostles the churche at al tymes after hath power to abrogate or alter theim as they growe to bee abused or cease to be profitable therefore diuersitie of Ceremonies maketh not diuersitie of Churches The Papiste Firste in the Primitiue Churche they did mixe in our lordes cuppe water with wine and so for to doe est lex Euangelica traditio dominica as witnesseth S. Cypriane Irenaeus Eusebius Emissenus whiche these our reformatours will none of The aunswere The primitiue churche obserued in the sacramēt that which in drinking of wine they commonly vsed that is to put water among the wine to allaie the strength of it in whiche thyng there was no harme so long as superstition and opinion of necessitie was awaie but that it should bee as you saie lex Euangelica traditio dominica the lawe of the Gospell and the tradition of our Lorde I suppose you are not able to proue by aucthoritie of those Doctours whose names you recite In deede Cypriane verie earnestly vrgeth the law of the Gospell the institution of Christ for wine to bée vsed therein againste certaine heretikes of his tyme whiche contended that it should be ministered onely with water And so he writeth lib. 2. Epist. 3. to Caecilius Admonites autem nos scias vt in Calice offerendo dominica traditio seruetur neque aliud fiat à nobis quam quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit Vt Calix qui in comemorationem eius offertur mixtus vino offeratur Nam cum dicat Christus ego sum vitis vera sanguis Christi non aqua est vtique sed vinum That is Knowe thou that wee are admonished that in offeryng the Cuppe the tradition of our Lorde be obserued and that none other thyng be doen of vs then that which our lorde before did for vs That the cuppe whiche is offred in remembraunce of him be offered mingled with wine For seyng that Christe saieth I am the true Vine not water truely but wine is the bloude of Christe By this testimonie it is manifeste that Cypriane vrgeth wine and not water to be of the institution of Christe and the lawe of the Gospell But I marueile how any Papiste can bee so shamelesse to accuse vs for takyng awaie water out of the Cuppe whiche was no parte of Christes institution when thei them selues are so bolde to take awaie the cuppe altogether whiche is the one halfe of the Sacramente of Christes owne institution and continued in the Churche 1400. yeres after Christe vntill the late Counsaile of Constance whiche was but. 155. yeres agoen Thei maie robbe the people of the bloodde of Christe whiche Christe appoincted for theim and we are heinous heretikes for not vsing water in the Cup whereof as there is no vse so was there none institution This is the iudgemente of those that bée blinded with their owne pride to espie a mote in an other mannes iye and not to see a beame in their owne The Papiste Seconde in the Primitiue Church in baptising they vsed to dippe the partie baptized thries in the water and S.
Basile affirmeth that it was a tradition of the Apostles that who so euer did not so he shoulde be deposed therfore wheras our reformatours doe but sprincle a little water in the foreheade of the partie baptized it may be quickly espied that thei follow not the primitiue churche The aunswere Our sauiour Christ commaundeth vs to Baptise in the name of the Father and of the Soonne and of the holie Ghoste whiche whether it bée by dippyng the bodie into the water or by powryng water vpon the bodie the misticall signification of washyng is sufficiently expressed and so longe the Baptisme is right as for the nōber of dippinges is nothyng materiall We read in the scriptures diuers formes of washing The Eunuche was Baptised by Philip goyng in naked into a Riuer or Brooke And so Baptised Ihon in Iordan Other that were Baptised in their houses it is moste like that water was powred on them as Cornelius and them that were with hym And the keper of the prison with his housholde Actes xvj And as for the Ceremonie of thrise dippyng although it was vsed of many to signifie the Trinitie yet was it not generall nor of any necessitie For in the fowerth Counsaile of Toledo it was determined that all was one whether a childe were Baptized with three dippynges or with one alone And yet it was there decreed vpon a good consideration that in Spaine thei should vse but one dippyng The woordes are these in the fowerth Counsaile Toletane and the fiueth Canone Ne tamen haereticis videamur consentire qui tertio mergum dum eorum morem seruamus cautum est ne in Hispaenia fiat baptismus nisi in vna mersione that is to saie Least we should seme to agree with heretikes whiche vse to dippe thrise while wee reteine their maner of baptisyng it is decreed that no Baptisme in Spaine bee ministered but with one onely dippyng In this decree of the Coūsaile twoo thynges especially are to bee noted Firste that the three dippynges was not alwaies and in all places obserued as a necessarie matter and therefore your argumente is fallen to the grounde Secondely that it is profitable to alter and chaunge suche Ceremoeies as are vsed of heretikes that wee seme not to agree with theim in any thyng in whiche it is lawful for vs to disagree And for this consideration doe we refuse to dip thrise because we would not seme to agrée with you whiche are heretikes although wee acknowledge that of it self it is a thyng indifferente to dippe twise or thrise or ones or not at al to dip but onely to poure on water in signe of that spirituall ablution whiche is represented by that Sacramente of Baptisme Wherefore you haue a verie quicke sight that can espie a knotte in a Rushe and of so small a gnat to make so great an Elephante as though all Christianitie stoode in thrise dippyng of a child in Baptisme whiche I haue proued not onely not to haue been alwaies obserued but also by decree of a Counsaill to haue been expressely forbidden Which Ceremonie although it bee noumbred emong the canons commonly called of the Apostles yet hath he a meane iudgement in antiquitie that can not descerne theim from Apostolike writynges But because you bryng in the Tradition of the Apostles you muste nedes giue me leaue to presse you with the same aucthoritie and to shewe that you your self obserue not the Traditions of the Apostles In the vj. Canon of the Apostles it is commaunded that no Bishoppe Prieste nor Deacon shall put awaie his wife vnder colour of religion and thei that doe so shall be excomunicate And in the ninthe and tenthe Canons it is decreed that whosoeuer is presente at the Communion and dooeth not communicate that he should bee excommunicate How these Canons of the Apostles if you will needes haue them so called be obserued in your Popishe Clergie and your priuate Masse what nede I to rehearse And yet you agree with the primitiue Churche in all thynges and we haue none agreaunce therewith at all The Papiste Thirde in the Primitiue churche they vsed Oyle and Chrisma in the ministratiō of diuers Sacramentes which christ hymselfe did ordaine and sainctifie the night before his passion as witnesseth S. Cypriane And his Apostles did commende the same vnto the Churche by their traditions as witnesseth sainct Basile and S. Augustine whiche these our reformatours will none of The aunswere In the Primitiue Churche there was not so many diuerse Sacramentes as you speake of but onely the Sacramente of Baptisme and of the bodie and bloode of christe and in neither of these was there any institution or vsage of oile chrisme And although in the later tyme ceremonies increased that oyle was vsed in baptisme yet was there not so many Sacramentes for Augustine saieth vnto Ianuaerius Epis. 118. Vnde Sacramentis numero paucissimis obseruatione facillimis significatione praestantissimis ▪ societatem noui populi colligauit sicut est Baptismus Trinitatis nomine consecratus communicatio corporis Christi sanguinis ipsius si quid aliud in scripturis canonicis cōmendatur Wherfore saieth Augustine God hath bounde the societie of his newe people with Sacramentes in number fewest in obseruation easiest in significatiō most excellent as is baptisme consecrated in the name of the Trinitie the communion of the bodie and blood of Christe and if any thing els be commended in the Canonicall scriptures The same Augustine and Chrisostome also vpon the water and blood that issued out of Christes side do gather that the Sacramentes of the church flowed out of his side namely Baptisme and the Supper of the lord Aug. Hom. in Ioann 20. Chrysostom ad Neophytos Augustine also in the thirde booke de doctrina christiana Cap. 9. rehearseth but these twoo Sacramentes speakyng of those that are properly called Sacramentes for otherwise both he and other auncient writers extende the name of Sacrament to al ceremonies And yet Gregorie accompteth washyng of feete to be a Sacramente as Baptisme and the Supper whiche is no sacramente with you And as for the ceremonie of annointyng in baptisme it is as lawfull for vs to abrogate as for you to omitte the drinke of milke and Honie after baptisme other such ceremonies which you knowe were vsed as well as oyle and Chrisme But our Sauiour Christe the night before his Passion did ordeine and sanctifie Oyle and Chrisme for suche purposes I meruaile what Cipriane dare be so bolde to affirme it séeyng the Euangelistes make no mention thereof and here againe if you hadde noted the place of Cipriane wee might better haue considered of his aucthoritie Diuerse writinges are set forth in his name whiche were neuer any of his workes The Papiste Fowerth S. Basile saieth that all determiminations and instructions which are preached and kepte in the Primitiue churche of Christe we haue receiued theim partely of the scriptures and partly by the traditions of the Apostles whiche both hath
exhorteth them to breake it But suche as are not able to performe honestly that whiche thei haue vowed rashely we teach accordyng to the doctrine of sainct Paule that it is better for them repentyng of their rashe vowes to marie then to burne in concupiscens then to committe fornication and vncleanes And this we doe not without the consent of olde writers as partly I haue shewed and more coulde shewe if neede required The Papiste Seuenth in the primitiue churche Images of Christe his Crosse and of his sainctes were vsed as in Cęsarea was the Image of Christ sette vppe by the woman whiche Christe cured of the fluxe of blood as witnesseth Eusebius and Basilius magnus and the generall Counsell holden at Nice of three hundred and tenne Bishoppes doeth constantly affirme and vouche that the Image of Christe and of his Sanctes in the churche were of the tradition of the Apostles And saincte Gregorie Nyssen doeth write howe he did beholde the Image of Christes passion and that oftentymes not without teares and weapyng Chrisostome saieth that he that dooeth any iniurie or valiny to the Image of Caesar he doth cōmitte the same against Caesar hymselfe S. Beade writeth how sainct Aug. entered into this Realme with a Crosse of Siluer and an Image of Christe painted in a table in procession wise singyng the Letanie to whiche notwithstandyng what violence and dishonour hath been doen by our reformatours herein this Realme to the Image of our sauiour Christ and of his sainctes it is not vnknowen The Aunswere It is a proper Primitiue Churche whiche you alledge of the seconde Counsaile of Nice whiche was seuen hundred eightie and one yeres after Christe holden by a multitude of Idolatrous flatteryng and vnlearned Prelates whiche to feede the humor of that wicked Empresse Irene were gathered together not in the name of Christ but against Christ whose expresse commaundemente thei did impugne And with suche leude and vnsensible reasons and wrestynges of the scriptures that if a manne of purpose to mocke the Idolaters woud inuente argumentes to laugh at hee coulde not diuise more ridiculous matters God made manne after his owne Image ergo wee muste make Images God is meruailous in his sainctes ergo we must make Images Theodofius of Amorie reasoneth whatsoeuer is written is written for our learnyng ergo wee must haue Images to teache vs No manne lighteth a candell and putteth it vnder a Bushell ergo Images must bee sette on the Alters with a hundreth suche substanciall proofes And to make the matter mooste manifeste Theodorus bishop of Myre proueth that Images must be worshiped by his Archedeacons dreames and so dooeth other by dreames and miracles and at laste Tharasius Archebishoppe of Constantinople with the whole Synode concludeth that Angelles haue bodies and mennes soules also be bodily and therefore thei maie bee paincted Againste this Idolatrous vnlearned and blasphemous Counsaile Carolus Magnus wrote a booke whiche is extante in whiche he confuteth the grosse heresie of adoration of Images As for the primatiue churche of Christ regardyng the seconde commaundement of God did make no kinde of Images to bee had in any vse of religion but vtterly forbad them As for the Image of Christ whereof Eusebius speaketh if it were true was onely a monumente of the historie sette vp in the streate in remembraunce of the miracle not in the churche to bee had in veneration or worshipped Neither was there any Image receiued into the Churche for three hundreth yeres after Christe The Epistle of Epiphanius translated by saincte Hierome is a notable testimonie Cum venissem ad villam quae dicitur Anablatha vidissemque ibi praeteriens lucernam c. When I came to a village whiche is called Anablatha and sawe there as I passed by a candell burnyng and inquiryng what place it was and vnderstandyng that it was a Churche I entered in to praie and founde there a vaile or linnen clothe hangyng at the doore of the saied churche stained and painted and hauyng an Image as it were of Christ or of some saincte For I dooe not well remember whose Image it was Therefore when I sawe this thing that the Image of a man was hanged vp in the Churche contrary to the aucthoritie of the Scriptures I did rende it in péeces and gaue counsaile to the kepers of that place rather to wrappe it about some poore bodie that was deade to burie hym with all Contrariwise thei murmured and saied If he would néedes rende it it were reason he should giue vs an other vaile for it and so chaunge it Whiche thing when I heard I promised that I would giue theim one aad sende it shortlie There passed not long tyme but that I sought to sende theim a verie good vaile for it For I thought that one shoulde haue been sente me out of Cypres And nowe I haue sente suche a one as I could gette And I praie you to commaunde the Elders of that place to receiue that Vaile of this bearer whiche is sente by vs And to giue theim charge that hereafter in the Churche of Christe suche vailes bee not hanged vp whiche are contrary to our Religion This writeth Epiphanius to Ihon bishoppe of Hierusalem by whiche it is euidente what was thought of Images at that tyme when a painted vaile might not bée hanged before a Churche doore to keepe out the winde or for some suche purpose and not in any respect of religion or worshipping The same Epiphanius emong the heresies of Carpocrates rehearseth that he made priuilie the Image of Iesu Paule Homer and Pithagoras and worshipped them Also he inueigheth sharply against the Antidicomarians and Collyridians for vsyng and worshippyng the Image of Marie the Virgine As for your testimonies out of Gregorie Nyssene and Chrysostome serue nothyng to the purpose for Gregorie speaketh not of the historie of Christes passion as you vntruely report but of the oblation of Isaac by his father Abraham Conc. Nicen. 2. actione iiij But this picture was in some priuate place not in the Churche and place of worshippyng And Chrysostome in his saiyng concludeth not that therefore we must haue Images of GOD and of Christe in the Churche but he that doeth iniurie to any manne that is made after the Image of god or disobeieth a Magistrate which representeth the persone of god c. He doth iniurie to god For he that maketh any Image of God doeth God greate iniurie transformyng the glorie of the inuisible GOD into the shape of any corruptible creature Rom. j. But what Chrysostome and diuers other godlie fathers thought of the vse of Images in the churche is exdressed in the counsaile of Ephesus which condemned Images before the Counsaile of Nice whiche restored theim And the Counsaile Elibertinum fower hundreth yeres before that vnder Constantine the greate made this decree Capt. xxxvi Placuit picturas in ecclesia esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus depingatur That is It is thought
good that pictures ought not to bée in the Churche leaste that thyng whiche is worshipped and honoured should bee painted on the walles To conclude that whiche you alledge out of Beda concernyng Dan Augustine the Monke I will aunswere by the aucthoritie of sainct Augustine the Bishoppe who in his boke De consensu Euāgelistarum libr. i. Capit. 10. Speakyng of certaine Heathen aduersaries whiche noumbred Paule emong the twelue Apostles that were with Christe while he liued writeth in these woordes Credo quod pluribus locis simul eos cum illo pictos viderunt quià merita Petri Pauli etiam propter eundem passionis diem celebrius solemniter Roma commendat Sic omnino errare meruerunt qui Christum Apostolos eius non in sanctis codicibus sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt I beleue that in many places thei sawe theim painted together with hym because the Citie of Rome commendeth the worthinesse of Peter and Paule more notably and solemnely because of the same daie of their sufferyng So altogether thei were worthie to bée deceiued whiche sought Christ and his Apostles not in the holie scriptures but in painted walles And so all thei that followed your Augustines superstitions were iustely blinded and deceiued because thei sought not Christ in the scriptures but in painted Tables whiche is the punishemente due for Idolatrie as sainct Paule testifieth Roma j. The Papiste Eight in the primatiue church the maner of fastyng was merueilous streight in so much that Faustus Manicheus 1300. yeres agoe did taxe the christiane men that they should in tyme of Lente absteine from all meate that is spoken of by the Apostle S. Paule in the first to Timothy the fowerth Chapiter And did blaspheme the doyng and teachyng of Christes churche to be doctrinam daemoniorum But Ierome vpon the same place doth make answere like as sainct Augustine in manie places that the church in their fasting to absteine from meate not therby to condemne any kynde of meate as Manichaeus did but for penance and to subdue the carnall concupiscens and suche other like good purposes ▪ And farther for the streight fasting in the primitiue Churche S. Iheronime writeth ad Nepotianum Epiphanius in Anchorato whiche is nowe thought of these reformatours to be superfluous and folishe and therfore they mind not to reduce and bring vs to the order of the primitiue churche The aunswere Concernyng Fastyng I haue spoken sufficiently in aunswere of your tenth argumente out of the scriptures where you make mention of fastyng also Euseb. lib. v. Capit. xviij Testifieth that Montanus the heretike was the firste that prescribed lawes of fastyng whom you followe altogether And especially the heretikes call Archontici of whom Epiphanius writeth lib. i. Tom. iij. Here. 40. whiche pretended fastyng but obserued none in deede and the Manichees of whom S. Augustine testifieth that vnder colour of abstinence thei refrained from eatyng of any liuyng thyng and from drinkyng wine yet did thei glutte and pamper theim selues with delicate frutes and spices with drinke made of the iuice of Dates c. such was your Popishe faste on Fridaies at Dinner to eate no fleshe but as muche fishe as the beallie would holde with good store of wine at night to eate no liuyng creatures but Figges Reasons Almondes Wardens and Quinces baked Suckette and Marmelade and other fruites conserued with good wine or Hipocras to helpe digestion This was a straight kind of faste yet this was Catholicke enough so long as greate Prelates vsed it The Papispte Ninth in the primitiue churche they vsed praier for the soules departed whiche was the tradition of the Apostles as witnesseth Dyonysius Areopagita de caelesti Hierarchia Cap. 7. Epiphanius Chrisostom in 1. ad Cor. Hom. 41. in Math. 33. Hō 69. ad populum Antiochenum whiche thinge is proued also by the Scriptures affirmed of all auncient writers and hath alwaies been continued in Christes Churche and now denied and taken awaie by oure reformatours and therefore they minde no to reduce vs to the primitiue churche The aunswere I must needes confesse that praier for the deade is one of the oldeste heresies that the Papistes doe maintaine and yet hath it no aucthoritie of Gods worde nor of the primitiue Churche for twoo hundreth yeres after Christe Thei vsed in deede to make mention of theim at the celebration of the Communion and to giue God thankes for them whiche some tyme is called a Sacrifice offered for thē as of Cypriane Lib. iiii Epist. v. Speaking of Martyres of whom none doubteth but thei were in heauen and neded no praiers to bee made for them Sacrificia pro eis semper vt meministis offerimus quoties martyrum passiones dies anniuersaria commemoratione celebramus That is Wee offer Sacrifice for theim alwaies as you remember so often as wee celebrate the passion or dayes of the Martyres by yerely commemoration But this vnproper kinde of speakyng and bolde attemptes without scripture to name the deade in the Communion did bréede in the posteritie many errours as praier for the deade the Sacrifice of the Masse for the deade Purgatorie and suche other But in this nineth argumente you bewraie your fraudulent dealing in the other for here you note the places of the doctours whiche you knowe no manne will denie and in other places where you affirme that none of vs will graunte you alledge their names onely without quotyng the places The Papiste Tenth in the Primitiue churche christen men were taught to arme them selues with the signe of the Crosse whiche consignatiō of the Crosse was vsed in the administration of the Sacramentes and that of necessitie as sainct Augustine saieth wordes also of inuocation before the consecration of the Sacrament of the Aulter were vsed in the primitiue churche like as the sanctifiyng of the Fonte the blessyng also of the Chrisme and Oyle to annoincte the partie baptized all which thinges were of the traditions of the Apostles as witnesseth Basili sainct Cyprian sainct Augustine Damas and many other ▪ whiche thinges beeyng now vtterly abolished by the newe reformatours they purpose not to bring vs to the order of the Primitiue churche Seeyng therefore it can not bee denied by so many testimonies gathered out of the diuine Scriptures and holy fathers that they agree not with the primitiue churche of christe but doe dissent and are cleane gone from it in so many diuerse poinctes as I haue expressed Therefore this their reformation to reduce vs to the primitiue churche is onely pretended of their partes and shall neuer be proued The aunswere You leape to and fro backwarde and forwarde more like to one that daunseth then that disputeth Haue wée not hearde enough before of crossyng and blessyng of Oile and Chrisme But thei must now be repeated againe whiche if thei were graunted to you and vsed of vs as thei were in tyme of those doctours whose names you recite what had you gained ther by It