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authority_n	church_n	council_n	trent_n	2,452	5	10.8205	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88101	A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182	106,562	123

that the conference could produce no concord at all because neither party was willing to grant to the other any thing of importance Anno 1541. The x Sleyd Com. lib. 13. p. 279. Emperour Charles V. proposed a Colloquie to the Protestant Princes to be held at y Ibid. l. 14. p. 281. Ratisbone betwixt Julius Pelagius John Eccius John Gropperus chosen for the Papists Philip Melancthon Martin Bucer and John Pistorius for the Protestants To them was delivered a Book by Granvell given to Caesar as he said by some good man the Heads whereof he would have them to consider which were Of the Creation of Man and his Integrity of Nature before the Fall Of Free-will Of the cause of Sin Of Original Sin Of Justification of a sinner Of the Church Signs and Authority thereof Of the Word Repentance Of the Authority of the Church in Interpretation of Scripture Of Absolution Matrimony Of the Sacraments Of Order Of Images The Mass Administration of Sacraments Of Discipline of the Church Ministers and People Eccius erat impatiens atque morosus nam librum fastidiebat collegas minime probabat qui egerant rem diligenter reconciliarunt multa nec illa quidem levia doctrinae capita Ibid. In this Colloquie Eccius shewed himself impatient and froward and disdained the Book and disliked his Collegues yet they handled the matter diligently and reconciled some Heads of Doctrine of no small moment Anno 1546. b Sleyd Com. l. 16. p. 353 354. Caesar renewed the Disputation at Ratisbone but with other Speakers on both sides except onely Martin Bucer The Points to be argued on were the same the same Presidents and Notaries chosen two on each side and withall an Oath was required That nothing should be revealed of the matters in conference before it were imparted to Caesar and States of the Empire which the Protestant Disputants could not agree unto because their Princes had required of them from time to time to write unto them how things proceeded in the Colloquie Whereupon is was soon after broken up About that time c Melch. Adamus in vita Fred. Mycon à p. 171 ad 175. Fredericus Myconius disputed with John Tecelius the Popes Factor for sale of Pardons betwixt whom the Question was not about the lawfulness or validity of them but abut the selling of them For Myconius would have had a Pardon a free-cost but Tecelius would not allow him one upon such easie terms and so he was without one Anno 1549. d Fox Martyr vol. 2. p. 756. col 2. Mr. Fox said he had so many Disputations in his hands and some of them so long as all together would make a Volume And he setteth down at large Peter Martyrs Syllogistical Disputation against Transubstantiation at Oxford e Ibid. à p. 760 to 778. and three Disputations held at Cambridge the same year That of Peter Martyr is noted by Sleydan also and well approved of There was a Conference at Poisy in France in the time of Charles IX Anno 1560. French Hist p. 737. see of this disput Peter Mart. 54 Epist which is to Bullinger p. 154. Counc of Tren Anno 1561. which began the 9 of Septemb. and was finished about the 5 of Novemb. f Bucolz Chron. p. 602. Bucolzerus saith it was betwixt the Cardinal of Lorain and Theodore Beza g The Hist of the Counc of Tr. l. 5. p. 453 454. The History of the Councel of Trent saith there was with him Peter Martyr and that these two were the chief The h French Hist of Serres p. 737 French History besides them nameth Augustine Marlorat Francis of S. Paul Raymond and John Viril with others to the numbar of 12 Ministers and 22 Deputies of the Protestant Churches who offered a Petition to the King at his first entry To examine the Confession of their Faith That the King would be President with his Councel That the Clergy being parties should not take upon them the Authority of Judges That all Controversies might be determined by the Word of God That two Secretaries chosen on either side might examine the Disputations that were daily written and that they should not be received but signed by either part These conditions with little difference are set down both in the French History and the History of the Councel of Trent in the places sore-noted but in other particulars their Observations are different though not dissentient i Hist of the Counc of Trent ib. l. 5. p. 451. The Cardinal of Lorain likewise desired the Kings presence in the publick Assembly that it might be more frequent and adorned to make ostentation of his worth promising himself a certain victory Many of the Divines would have perswaded the Queen not to suffer the King to be present that those tender years might not be envenomed by pestiferous Doctrine but he was present and in a short speech as he was instructed made an Exhortation to correct the things that were amiss desiring they should not depart till all differences were composed Before they entred into open Conference the Cardinal of Lorain would treat privately with Beza before the Queen Mother and having heard him especially upon the Lord Supper k Serres French Hist ubi ante I am greatly contented said he with it and hope assuredly that the issue of this Conference will be happy proceeding with mildness and reason Afterwards when the Cardinals of Lorain and Turnon endevoured to make delays in the Conference the Queen bade Beza begin who having praid upon his knees and deprecated the imputations of turbulency and sedition from himself and his party he declared in what they did agree with the Church of Rome and in what they did dissent touching Faith Good Works Authority of Councels of Ecclesiastical Discipline Obedience to Magistrates of the Sacraments and entring into the matter of the Eucharist But he spake with such heat saith l Hist of the Councel of Trent 1.5 p. 452. the Author of the Trent History as gave little satisfaction to them of his own party but provoked the Prelates to high disdain and indignation The Congregation being assembled again the Cardinal of Lorain made a long Oration concluding when any particular Church is in an errour recourse must be had to the Church of Rome The Decrees of General Councels Consent of the ancient Fathers and above all to the Scripture expounded in the sense of the Church When he had made an end all the Bishops stood up and said If the Protestants will subscribe to this Article they will not refuse to dispute the rest but if not they ought not to have any more audi●nce but to be chased out of the whole Kingdom Beza asked leave to answer presently but it seemed not fit to equalize a private Minister to so great a Prince Cardinal and so the Assembly was dissolved The Prelates were willing that the Colloquie should have

inire certamen cum hominibus communionis alienae divina scriptura praedicante homine haereticum post primam secundam correptionem de vita Tom. 3. Concil p. 625. Col. 2. edit Bin. 1636. Pope Gelasius decreed against disputation with those who are of another Communion for which he pretends the authority of the Apostle Paul A man that is an Heretick after the first and second admonition reject Titus 3. v. 10. t Quaeritur anliceat clericis de fide Catholica disputare publicè Neg. Azor. Instir Moral l 8. c. 26. 1 part p. 569. Azorius the Jesuit in his morall institutions putteth this question whether it be lawfull for Clerks to dispute publickly of the Catholick Faith And he answereth negatively and quotes for it A decree of the Trinity and Catholick Faith and for lay persons the Popes prohibition is expresse and peremptory u Inhibemus ne cuiquam Laitae personae liceat de fide Catholica dispatare Sext. decretal l. 5. Tit. 2. de Haereticis we inhibit as unlawfull for any lay-man publickly to dispute of the Catholick Faith And if there be w Azorius Ibid. p. 571. Col. 1. any disputes of matters of Faith betwixt Catholicks and Hereticks published in any Mother-Tongue they are forbidden in their Index of prohibited books Qu. But did not Bellarmine read his controversies or disputations of the difference between the Popish and Protestant Religion at Rome and amongst other questions did he not discusse the capitall questions of the Popes supremacy and in-infallibility as well as others of inferiour titles Ans He did so and because he stood up as a Champion for the Antichristian Creed and Church he was allowed to do so especially there where his hearers were wilfully fortified against the true faith But so little is any disputation liked by those who are most Popish that as a very wife and observant Traveller informeth us in his judicious Book called Europae speculum or a view or survey of the state of Religion in the Western parts of the world that he x Sir Edw. Sand. Europae speculum p. 121 122. sought for the controversies of Card. Bellarm. in verity in all places but neither that nor Gregorie de Valentia nor other Popish School-men nor any of that quality could be ever in any shop of Italy set eye upon which made me saith he entertain this suspicious conjecture that no part of the Protestants positions and allegations should be known they were so exact as to make discurrent in some sort even those very books which were constrained to cite them that they might refute them in such wise as not to suffer them to be commonly saleable but onely to such and in such places as the Superiours should think meet And it is not an improbable opinion of some that Bellarmines dispatations are the lesse pleasing to the Pope and his dearest favourites because he citeth our Authors too fully and setteth on their arguments further then his answers reach to take them off And for the point in hand disputation is the most cryed down in Italy the Popes Country above other places for as the same prudent Author observeth y Ibid. p. 117. as in the foundation of the reformation which is the Scripture so much more in the edifice it self the Doctrines and Opinions of the reformed Churches they bear away all sound and Eccho of them being not lawfull there to alledge them no not to glance at them not to argue nor dispute of them no not to refute them he goeth on In ordinary communication saith he to talk of matters of religion is odious and suspicious but to enter into any reasoning though but for argument sake without any other scandall is prohibited and dangerous yea it was once my fortune saith he to be half threatned for none other fault then for debating with a Jew and upholding the truth of Christianity against him so unlawfull there are all disputes of Religion whatsoever c. Ibid. I believe him there in the rather because z Azor. Institut part 1. l. 8. c. 26. p 571. col 2. Azorius confesseth they are so jealous of all disputations as that they will not allow of a confutation of the Alcora n in any Mother-Tongue Not that they care either for the Jewish or Turkish Religion but that if they must be so much secured from common contradiction much more must that which they call Roman Catholick especially for those points which concern his Holinesse indisputable and all disputative priviledges to whom Papall Parasites appropriate that of the Apostle 1 Cor. 2.14 The spirituall man judgeth all things yet he himself is judged of no man But the cause common to them both why the Turkish and Popish Religion are so tender over their Tet●ets that they may not be touched by dispute is for that they are like the apples of Sodom which how fair soever they seem to the eye if they be handled they fall unto ashes and smoke a Joseph of the wars of the Jewes l. 5. c. 5. fine capitis as Josephus recordeth because they have no solidity of truth that can endure the triall Having shewed in the precedent discourse how averse many have been from disputations in Religion why and how far and how adverse the Mahometans and Papists are unto them I will adde but one observation more under this Title of Disputations in Religion concerning the Pope and his party of this generation who besides the reason wherein by their dislike of them they agree with the Turks which is a part of their Turco papismus as Dr. Sutlive hath entitled a book against them are vehemently bent against them where their power is most predominant out of pride and disdain of all Religions but their own especially of the Protestants because they have done them the most dishonour and damage and because by the domineering decrees of the Councell of Trent and by the Tyrannicall authority of the Inquisition they are better able to oppose them then by Disputations and Arguments from Scripture or reasons and for this reason among others is the Popish “ Pope Paul the fourth said it was the principall secret and Mystery of the papacy Hist of the Council of Trent lib. 4. p. 405. and the true Ram to bear down heresie and defend the Apostolick Sea Ibid. p. 409. rather then “ The very name of the Inquisition is terrible all Christendome over and the King of Spain with his Grandees tremble at it Howels famil Letters Vol. 1. Let. 44 p. 236. Spanish inquisition though set up principally against the Iewes and Moores carryed on so cunningly and cruelly against the Protestants that the Bishops and other of the Popish Clergy might not be put to too much paines in arguing with them as it was said by some who wrote against the English Bishops for pressing ceremoniall conformity with too much rigour b So in the beginning of a Dialogue betwixt

been that ended but the Bishops of Valence told them it was dishonourable Therefore on the 24 day it was again assembled in presence of the Queen and Princes wherein Beza spake of the Church Conditions and Authority thereof Of Councels Of the dignity of the Scriptures So the History of Trent hit the m Serres History of France p. 738. French History that day Beza made answer to the Cardinal and disputed with Espenceus and Sainctes and v. 26. he treated with him again of the Lords Supper the other Ministers likewise replied to some Objections of other Doctors of the Sorbon and finally all was converted into private Conferences without any resolution or conclusion that might end these troubles By the appointment of Sigismu●d King of Poland Anno 1566. there was a Disputation appointed betwixt the new Arrians and those who professed the contrary Faith unto them at Petricovia in Poland Here there was somewhat to do about Presidentship whether there should be one or more which was resolved that by turns one of each should preside and being Papists who managed the dispute against the Arrians they chose him for the Scribe who had been a Scribler against Calvin for his n Calv. Opuse p. 682 683 684. ad fratres Polonos Epistles ad fratres Polonos The Arrians would not yield to say Amen to the prayer of their opposites because they would not acknowledge a God in Trinity of Persons After this they soon brake off without any fruit of their Conferences as o Possevin Biblioth Select Tom. 1. c. 13. p. 363. Anno. 1572. Possevine who setteth down the dispute reporteth From that year to 1590 p Ant. Possev Apparat. Sacer vol. 1. p. 480. Possevine gives a List of 21 Disputations of several Popish Points held in several Popish Universities but they were but such Disputations as Bellarmines at Rome without a personal opponent or if with one not real and serious but onely personated Stanislaus Roscius Anno 1574. Melch. Adam in vita Bullingeri p. 502. as I have observed in the 1 Chapter that he may reproch the Religion of the Protestants for want of unity alledgeth That from the Disputation at Lipsia Anne 1519. to their Synod in Vilna 1590. they have had above 100 Meetings Conferences Disputations Councels and Synods and yet cannot reconcile themselves to one another wherein he sheweth himself a malicious and slanderous Papist and to speak with reference to r Ferrar. Lexic Geogr. p. 432. col 1. fin Vilna in Sarmatia a chief City of Lithuania in Poland where Roscius was an Abbot it was at Vilna where the Jesuit ſ Bucolz chron p. 778. Anno 1584. Scarga rang the Bell to a Parisian Massacre of the Protestants of that City where for their too good agreement in the truth in their conceits they would make them agree in tribulation for it under their remorsless cruelty though I confess the dissention I finde in divers of their meetings is so much that I am loth to mention them Betwixt these two Chronological terms Anno 1586. Biblioth Parv. Tom. 1. Graec. Lat. à p. 194 ad 272. there was publish'd a dispute betwixt Gregentius Archiepisc Tophrensis so he is called with Herbanus a Jew wherein Gregantius argueth copiously and vigorously for the Christian against the Jewish Religion Philip Mornay Lord of Plessies Governor of Saumur Anno 1600. Joh. de Serres gen Hist of France much augmented out of approved Authors by Edw. Grims p. 1052. accused by the B shop of Eureux to have committed 500 falshoods in his Book against the Mass presented a Petition to K. Henry IV. That his Majesty would be pleased to appoint Commissioners to examine every passage of Scripture cited in his Book The King yielded to his motion and on the fourth of May appointed a Conference betwixt them which began that day in the great Hall at Fountainbleau Who were the Commissioners and in what equipage they were placed there is fully set down in the general History of France written by John Serres in the Reign of Henry IV. B fore the Disputation began it was declared That it should not bring into debate matters of Doctrine of either Religion but onely be confined to the Exceptions of the Bishop and the Answers of the Lord Mornay made unto them Who first promised in the general Ibid. that his hope was That when he should be equally examined all men should finde that he had carried himself faithfully and diligently although it were not to be held strange if in five thousand passages or more they have found some wherein his eye his memory or his judgement hath wavered Oh said he that the Books of the Roman Church which have been written within this hundred years were examined with this rigour how many should you find that could endure this Trial Finally he professed that with his Majesties leave this act was particular and could not prejudice the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches of that Realm which had been before him and should be after him And so they entred into the matter “ French Hist p. 1053. But after the first days debate Mornay fell very sick so the dispute in that manner proceeded no further Whereof we shall speak more in the next Chapter The Disputes of Peter de Moulin with the Jesuites and other Papists in France are too many to be brought into this Catalogue wherein I desire to be brief as also those of D. Featly our acute Countryman both in England and in France Anno 1603. was the Conference or Disputation at Hampton Court before King James The w The first days conference at Hampton Court p. 1 2. parties of opposite opinions were on the one side the Archbishop of Canterbury the Bishops of London Durham Winchester Worcester St. Davids Chichester Carlisle and Peterborough the D●ans of the Chappel Worcester Westminster Pauls Chester Windsor with Dr. Field and Dr. King Archdeacon of Notingham and on the other Dr. Reynolds Mr. Spa●k● Mr. Knewstubs and Mr. Chaderton Agents for the Millenary plaintiffs as Dr. Barlow Dean of Chester the partial Penman of that Conference calleth them not that they were Chiliasts or Millenaries as many are by a mistaken sense of Revel 20.6 but because they agreed much with them who exhibited a Petition to the King with the Subscription of a thousand Ministers The matters disliked or questioned were reduced by Dr. Reynolds the Fore-man to these * Ibid. p. 23. four Heads First that the Doctrine of the Church might be preserved in purity according to Gods Word Secondly that good Pastors might be planted in all places to preach the same Thirdly that Church government might be sincerely ministred according to Gods Word Fourthly that the Book of Common-prayer might be fitted to more increase of piety Doctor Francis Write had two Disputations with Fisher the Jesuite An. 1622. the latter of them in the presence of King James With the

age p. 31. CHAP. V. Of the various issues and successes of Conferences Colloquies and Disputations about matters of Religion p. 48. CHAP. VI. How Disputations are to be ordered that the truth may be cleared and being cleared both it and they who plead for it may be secured from reproachful misreports p. 57. CHAP. VII Of the Disputation at Kenelmworth betwixt John Brian Dr. in Divinity Minister at Coventry and John Onley Pastor of a Church at Lawford as he calls himself How it was occasioned undertaken and continued at divers monthly meetings there p. 73 CHAP. VIII Of the printing of the disputation By whose motion it was made By whom and how managed p. 76. CHAP. IX Of Mr. John Onley his quality and condition his wit and utterance his ignorance and arrogancy his reproachful speaking of such as are not of his Sect and partiality to himself and them his carping at the Magistrates for medling with matters of Religion and countenancing of Ministers p. 80. CHAP. X. A Conclusive Answer to Doctor Brians desire of Advice whether it be better to let Mr. O. alone or to answer him according to his folly sent him a good while ago by his Son but now published with enlargment for sasisfaction of others as well as of the Doctor himself Reasons many and weighty for the Negative p. 102. A DISCOURSE Of DISPVTATIONS Concerning matters of Religion Reverend Sir THough you would not use the liberty I gave you for correction of the long consolatory discourse I sent you a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saph. Carm. p. 58. Edit Henr. Steph in 12. Cum Pindaro aliis Lyricis Poetis Graecis which I am glad to perceive by your respective return was as well taken by you as intended by me Yet have I made so bold with your short gratulatory Letter as to expunge the two Parenthesis of the two first lines as comming too near the poeticall hyperbole used in the praise of the Poems of Sappho wherein though your errour of brotherly love might be excused my errour of self-love would not be pardoned if I should be so vain as to own your Encomium as due to any dictate of mine all I can justly claim being no more then a witnesse to my good will and endeavour to do well Waving then that part of the reasons of your request for publication of it in print I am content upon the account of the rest which you have rendred to give it up to your disposall in hope of the good effects which as you presage it may produce And for the second part of your Letter wherein you make just complaint of Mr. John Onely his injurious dealing with you and desire mine advice Whether it were better to let the man alone or to answer a fool according to his folly you shall have mine answer with my reasons but first I must tell you that I no sooner put pen to paper for that purpose but I found my self by what I have read and observed of the disputations of the precedent and present age both minded of and moved to an Enlargement of my labour beyond the limits of your request and expectation So far as while I pay a debt of love to you to make others indebted unto me by your occasion and for your sake by delivering somewhat of importance and I hope also capable of their acceptance which haply would not have come to their notice by another hand and this the rather because I do not think Mr. O. worthy of so much of my notice and respect as of purpose to appeare in publick against him or any man of his temper and condition It will be enough for him to be brought in as an occasion or an appendix to that which is of more moment I shall then thus divide my discourse treating 1. Of Disputations in generall concerning matters of Religion 2. Of our Disputation with Mr. J. O. in particular as by him it is published and his examination of some of your Arguments set forth in print to set forth himself as a Triumphant Antagonist for his Sect not onely over you but over all the reformed Churches throughout the world Of whom when I come to that part I shall give you my sense and apprehension as he deserveth and mine advice touching an answer to him as you desire and I conceive to be most convenient First for the Generall I shall reduce it to and comprehend the whole in the first six ensuing Chapters as their contents are set down in the foregoing Table CHAP. I. How some have been and are averse from or adverse to disputations in Religion how farre and for what reasons SOme are not altogether against disputations in Religion but are jealous over them with a godly jealousy as Paul was over his Corinthians 2 Cor. 11.2 lest they should be inconsiderately undertaken or indiscreetly managed and so as b Isti dum nimium scalpunt veritatem amittunt ut acutusille mimi versiculus nimium altercando veritas amittitur Ludovic Vives de causis corruptar artiū l. 3. p 127. Ludovicus Vives saith The truth by too much scratching and alteration should be lost lest errour by artificiall arguments and ornaments should have such a glorious flourish and varnish set upon it as to make it to be taken for the truth which is not unlike to fall out for some c Interdum orichalcum magis exprimit colorem auri quā aurum ipsum Ibid. Copper saith he hath a more glorious Lustre then some true gold And nothing as d Nihil est tam incredibile quod non dicendo fiat probabile nihil tam horridum tam incultum quod non splendescat oration● Cicer. paradox Prooem p. 436. Num. 3. Cicero observeth in the prooeme of his Paradoxes is so incredible but by elequence it may be made to appeare probable Nothing is so horrid but by a garnish of words it may be made to shine This imposture is easily put upon the vulgar for e Nihil tam facile quàm vilem plebeculam linguae volubilitate decipere quae quicquid non intelligit plus admiratur Hierom. ad Nepor de vita Cler. Tom. 1. p. 14. it is very easy with volubility of tongue to deoeive the simple common people who What they do not perceive with understanding they receive with admiration nor can they f Garrulitatem authoritatem putant Idem Epist Ocean vol. 2. p. 324. put a due difference betwixt garrulity and authority And they are commonly more affected with what they say who gainsay solid and long believed verity under pretence of new discoveries of truth and errour then with what hath warrant from the word of God and consent of all the Christian Churches of the world both of ancient or of later times and the fallacy takes with them the more tenderly because these Novell Dogmatists make a faire profession of mortification and self-deniall refusing those advantages and accommodations of a comfortable living

which their opposites do enjoy and bear themselves boldly against authority as if they meant to merit that Elogium which the Disciples of the Pha●isees with the Herodians gave of our Saviour Mat. 22.16 Master we know that thou art true and teachest the way of God truth neither carest thou for any man for thou regardest not the persons of man And therefore they set up what Religion they plea●e making their conventicles when and what they please and in them speaking of God and man what they please that which is fitter to be whispered in the dark or rather buried in eternall silence then as Divine dictates as our Saviour would have them published on the house-top Luk. 12.3 yet that their more private carriage of their profession in Chimnie-houses where there is ever more smoke then light may not be interpreted to their prejudice as if they had not conscience and confidence to own their tenets in publick they have presumed many times even the weaker sex hath so much strength of fancy and will as to offer to set up their new lights in our steeple-houses and to call our Preachers down from their Pulpits as having no calling from God to be Preachers of the Gospel and herein many of the shallower fort do so applaud themselves that they had rather appeal to them to be their judges g Factus est populus spectator arbiter Index Ludovic Vives de causis corrupt artium l. 1. p. 38. as some judicious writers have observed then to any others h Inde arrogantia quod aliquod sibi viderentur quia stulto judici videbantur Idem l. 3. p. 327. they arrogantly applaud themselves in their approbation But that which maketh the wiser sort more unwilling to give too much way to religious disputations or rather to disputations of Religion especially in publick is the subtilty of some of unsound principles the simplicity of others of a better belief who suspecting no deceipt confiding in the strength of truth are easily intangled with ingagements to dispute to the greatest disadvantage of their cause not forethinking how their adversaries may be furnished for assault and what liberty of misreport they will take either to make shew of victory or to shadow a foil this inconvenience is obvious to an ordinary apprehension But there are some stratagematicall depths and policies of those who are Masters in the Mysteries of iniquity both of the old and new Antichristian faction which I confesse my shallownesse had not imagined had I not been informed of them by a double testimony of good account and credit the one was told me by a Learned Scotchman a great Traveller when we met and became well acquainted in Oxford which though above 4 yeares ago I very well remember it was thus The Protestants of Luthers and Calvins profession have had many disputes and conferences in severall places which i The Protestants have had above 100 meetings conferences disputations councels and Synods from their first disputation held at Lypsia upon the year 1519 to their synod in Vilna 590. So Parsons Preface to the 10. disputations recounted by John Fox v. 26. he takes his ingelligence from Stanislaus Rescaus his observations and meanes though he do not particularly quote his Book wch he calleth Ministromachiam in qua Evangelicorum Magistrorum Ministro●●● de evangelicis magistris ministris mutua judicia Testimonia c. recensentur E●●us Coleniae apud Henric. Falken birg 1522. Parsons numbers to above a 100. betwixt them at one of their meetings which brought them near a conclusion of accord there came in a man in the name of a Lutheran Minister which desired to be heard and he was admitted to speak and he so set up soothed and animated the Lutherans to stand out against all complyance with the Calvinists and so exasperated the Calvinists with reproch that they went away worse minded towards each other then they were when at first they met together The other cunning device was of some of our English Sectaries about the yeare 1647. And that was a plot upon a dispute managed in this manner some of them had provoked a Minister learned enough for his time but too young to match them in subtilty either of caution or of contrivance to a publick dispute which he accepted of and though he acted his part as well as could be expected of one of his parts and yeares yet he rather lost then gained reputation to his cause or person because one of their side pretending himself till then to be of a contrary judgement to theirs at the close of the dispute openly professed his conviction and conversion to their party by the satisfaction he had received at that disputation whereas it was afterward dicovered that he was a great Zelot to that cause and party in former times which together with the other particulars fore mentioned induced me to propose unto my Brethren of the Ministry of Cheshire when they met to subscribe their attestation to the Ministers of London Jun. 1648. the penning whereof by their unanimous vote they put upon me that no Minister might make or take up a challenge for a set disputation upon any point of Religion without consultation and consent of his Brethren who should judge 1. Whether it should be disputed on or no if so 2. How the disputation should be ordered that the truth and those who are advocates for it may be clear and secured from circumvention and slander The like upon an especiall occasion I moved to my fellow Ministers at our meeting at Killingworth in Warwickshire and in both viz. that in Cheshire and this in Warwickshire as many as met together who were a considerable number signified their consent by subscription to what I proposed in these words Iuly the 7th 1656. At the meeting of the Ministers at Kenelmworth resolved and agreed upon That no Minister of this Association either offer or undertake any publick Disputation concerning any point of Religion but in such a manner and order and time as shall be concluded of by the consent of the brethren of the Society Iohn Bryan Obadiah Grew Iohn Ley. Daniel Eyres Iohn Trat Thomas Hall Thomas Dugard Anthony Woodhall Alexander Bean. Henry Buller Luke Milbourn Samuel Hawes Thomas Evance Besides these religious considerations which most concern Ministers to look unto there is another which upon a Civil account belongs most to the Magistrate viz. the preservation of the publick peace much endangered by a numerous concourse of people of adverse principles for debate of their differences From which will hardly be separated that pest of concord as r Concordiae pestis vincendi pertinax libido Erasm Epist praefix operibus Hilar. p. 5. Erasmus calleth it a pertinacious desire to conquer the adversary which may be like to break out into opprobrious words and from such words it may be to blowes and bloud-shed Therefore S. Paul clearing of himself from Tertullus his