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authority_n church_n council_n trent_n 2,452 5 10.8205 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A33225 A view of the whole controversy between the representer and the answerer, with an answer to the representer's last reply in which are laid open some of the methods by which Protestants are misrepresented by papists. Clagett, William, 1646-1688. 1687 (1687) Wing C4402; ESTC R10868 75,717 128

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we_o charge_v upon_o popery_n as_o if_o we_o will_v make_v the_o world_n believe_v that_o papist_n think_v as_o ill_o of_o what_o themselves_o profess_v and_o practice_n 5._o p._n 5._o as_o we_o do_v and_o much_o more_o for_o put_v these_o consequence_n as_o own_a by_o papist_n in_o the_o front_n of_o the_o protestant_a character_n of_o they_o as_o if_o we_o pretend_v they_o be_v the_o first_o principle_n of_o popery_n as_o for_o the_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n which_o we_o charge_v they_o with_o the_o representer_n general_o own_v they_o but_o he_o disown_v as_o he_o easy_o may_v the_o belief_n of_o those_o consequence_n and_o interpretation_n which_o we_o charge_v upon_o they_o and_o therefore_o his_o put_v they_o into_o the_o protestant_a character_n of_o a_o papist_n be_v his_o own_o artifice_n of_o lay_v the_o foul_a colour_n upon_o popery_n on_o the_o one_o side_n that_o it_o may_v look_v the_o fair_a when_o he_o take_v they_o off_o on_o the_o other_o now_o to_o prevent_v these_o deceit_n for_o the_o future_a this_o answer_n go_v through_o the_o thirty_o seven_o article_n again_o 40._o p._n 6._o to_o p._n 40._o to_o show_v under_o each_o head_n what_o we_o charge_v upon_o they_o as_o their_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n which_o be_v proper_o matter_n of_o representation_n and_o likewise_o what_o we_o charge_v upon_o such_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n which_o be_v proper_o matter_n of_o dispute_n by_o the_o confound_a of_o which_o two_o thing_n the_o representer_n have_v make_v a_o colour_n for_o his_o unjust_a complaint_n of_o misrepresentation_n 2._o whereas_o he_o pretend_v that_o he_o never_o deliver_v his_o own_o private_a sense_n and_o opinion_n in_o represent_v a_o papist_n 45._o p._n 44_o 45._o the_o answerer_n reply_v that_o he_o certain_o do_v so_o when_o he_o determine_v concern_v question_n which_o be_v dispute_v among_o themselves_o whether_o they_o be_v article_n of_o faith_n or_o not_o and_o that_o the_o 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catechism_n and_o that_o he_o do_v not_o find_v this_o limitation_n in_o the_o bishop_n of_o condom_n 13._o p._n 12_o 13._o 2._o of_o merit_n that_o the_o twenty_o six_o canon_n of_o the_o six_o session_n mention_n nothing_o of_o it_o and_o that_o it_o be_v clear_a from_o chap._n 16._o of_o that_o session_n that_o they_o make_v good_a work_n true_o and_o proper_o meritorious_a of_o eternal_a life_n though_o they_o grant_v the_o grace_n of_o god_n and_o the_o merit_n of_o christ_n to_o be_v the_o cause_n of_o their_o own_o merit_n final_o that_o the_o answerer_n do_v not_o appeal_v to_o the_o thirty_o second_o canon_n to_o oppose_v the_o representer_n qualification_n of_o the_o doctrine_n of_o merit_n 48._o p._n 46._o p._n 47_o 48._o and_o be_v therefore_o unconcern_v in_o his_o defence_n of_o it_o 3._o as_o to_o the_o pope_n personal_a infallibility_n that_o he_o deny_v it_o to_o be_v of_o faith_n and_o make_v it_o but_o a_o school_n point_n while_o there_o be_v as_o many_o who_o deny_v it_o to_o be_v a_o school_n point_n and_o make_v it_o a_o matter_n of_o their_o faith_n that_o the_o want_n of_o positive_a determination_n by_o a_o general_n council_n do_v not_o prove_v it_o to_o be_v no_o matter_n of_o faith_n because_o neither_o the_o infallibility_n of_o a_o general_n council_n nor_o of_o the_o church_n be_v positive_o determine_v by_o a_o general_n council_n that_o if_o infallibility_n must_v be_v somewhere_o among_o they_o they_o have_v the_o best_a reason_n that_o place_n it_o in_o the_o pope_n 4._o as_o to_o the_o depose_n doctrine_n 49._o p._n 49._o the_o answerer_n show_v large_o and_o clear_o that_o article_n of_o faith_n may_v be_v and_o have_v be_v decree_v without_o anathema_n that_o the_o depose_n decree_n include_v a_o doctrinal_a point_n 56._o p._n 54._o p._n 56._o that_o if_o it_o be_v mere_o a_o point_n of_o discipline_n and_o government_n they_o must_v either_o acknowledge_v it_o lawful_a for_o the_o church_n to_o depose_v heretical_a prince_n or_o consent_n that_o the_o church_n be_v not_o secure_v from_o make_v wicked_a decree_n in_o thing_n that_o concern_v the_o whole_a christian_n world_n that_o when_o the_o representer_n say_v that_o some_o decree_n of_o trent_n be_v not_o universal_o receive_v he_o do_v not_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o council_n have_v no_o authority_n to_o make_v they_o and_o to_o oblige_v prince_n to_o receive_v they_o and_o last_o that_o the_o pope_n let_v so_o many_o asserter_n of_o the_o no-deposing_a power_n to_o pass_v without_o any_o censure_n of_o heresy_n 57_o p._n 57_o do_v not_o argue_v a_o change_n of_o their_o doctrine_n but_o only_o of_o the_o time_n 3._o to_o the_o representer_n reflection_n upon_o the_o answerer_n way_n of_o proceed_v as_o that_o 1._o he_o own_v in_o some_o part_n the_o representer_n doctrine_n to_o be_v the_o establish_a doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n the_o second_o answerer_n charge_v he_o with_o foul_a misrepresentation_n upon_o this_o account_n in_o as_o much_o as_o the_o first_o answerer_n own_v nothing_o which_o be_v peculiar_a to_o the_o faith_n of_o a_o papist_n as_o distinguish_v from_o thr_fw-mi common_a faith_n of_o christian_n and_o that_o the_o representer_n may_v as_o well_o have_v say_v 61._o p._n 59_o 60_o 61._o that_o because_o protestant_n own_v that_o christ_n be_v to_o be_v worship_v therefore_o they_o in_o part_n own_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n that_o christ_n be_v to_o be_v worship_v by_o image_n and_o this_o he_o show_v to_o be_v the_o very_a case_n in_o every_o one_o of_o those_o six_o or_o seven_o point_n which_o the_o representer_n only_o name_v but_o do_v not_o think_v fit_a to_o insist_v upon_o to_o show_v how_o his_o reflection_n be_v applicable_a to_o they_o 2._o and_o that_o the_o first_o answerer_n appeal_v from_o the_o definition_n of_o their_o church_n etc._n etc._n 1._o to_o some_o exposition_n find_v in_o old_a mass-book_n and_o ritual_n 62._o p._n 62._o this_o answerer_n say_v that_o he_o can_v find_v but_o one_o instance_n of_o this_o relate_v to_o the_o worship_n of_o the_o virgin_n mary_n viz._n that_o scandalous_a hymn_n o_o fellix_fw-la puerpera_fw-la etc._n etc._n but_o that_o their_o church_n be_v accountable_a for_o her_o old_a missal_n which_o be_v the_o allow_v and_o establish_v office_n of_o worship_n that_o even_o this_o have_v never_o be_v condemn_v but_o that_o monsieur_n widenfelts_n book_n be_v condemn_v at_o rome_n which_o be_v write_v to_o bring_v the_o people_n to_o a_o bare_a ora_fw-la pro_fw-la nobis_fw-la 63._o p._n 63._o to_o the_o bless_a virgin_n 2._o to_o some_o external_a action_n as_o in_o case_n of_o respect_n show_v to_o image_n and_o saint_n to_o this_o the_o answerer_n say_v that_o the_o representer_n bring_v in_o this_o exception_n without_o take_v the_o least_o notice_n of_o what_o his_o first_o adversary_n say_v concern_v external_a adoration_n 64._o p._n 63_o 64._o that_o it_o be_v a_o part_n of_o divine_a worship_n and_o that_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n require_v it_o shall_v be_v give_v to_o image_n he_o show_v further_a that_o since_o there_o be_v such_o a_o thing_n as_o external_a and_o visible_a idolatry_n a_o idolatrous_a action_n be_v nevertheless_o such_o 65._o p._n 65._o for_o the_o intention_n of_o he_o that_o be_v guilty_a of_o it_o not_o to_o commit_v idolatry_n 66._o p._n 66._o that_o the_o worship_n of_o the_o invisible_a inhabitant_n of_o the_o other_o world_n though_o with_o such_o external_a act_n as_o may_v be_v pay_v to_o creature_n have_v always_o be_v account_v religious_a worship_n that_o as_o the_o degree_n of_o civil_a honour_n be_v distinguish_v by_o the_o sight_n of_o the_o object_n so_o one_o certain_a distinction_n between_o civil_a and_o religious_a be_v 67._o p._n 67._o that_o the_o worship_n of_o a_o invisible_a object_n be_v always_o religious_a and_o that_o to_o worship_n
e._n for_o downright_o lie_v but_o as_o we_o hear_v before_o for_o wry_a interpretation_n weak_a reason_n etc._n etc._n and_o here_o end_v the_o amicable_a accommodation_n for_o his_o pick_n up_o new_a misrepresentation_n he_o say_v he_o do_v it_o to_o show_v that_o the_o former_a be_v not_o his_o own_o childish_a conceit_n for_o leave_v out_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o arch-bish_a p_o of_o y●rk_n that_o this_o make_v nothing_o against_o he_o because_o the_o question_n be_v not_o what_o some_o private_a author_n say_v 35._o p._n 35._o but_o what_o the_o church_n believe_v 36._o p._n 36._o who_o faith_n can_v be_v fair_o represent_v from_o their_o book_n though_o publish_v by_o the_o authority_n of_o superior_n for_o produce_v what_o sutcliff_n lay_v to_o their_o charge_n without_o produce_v his_o reason_n that_o his_o reason_n be_v none_o of_o the_o representer_n concern_v 37._o p._n 37._o because_o they_o nothing_o belong_v to_o represent_v nor_o have_v the_o answerer_n put_v his_o approbation_n to_o they_o he_o charge_v the_o answerer_n with_o leave_v out_o propter_fw-la deum_fw-la in_o a_o citation_n out_o of_o the_o pontisical_a and_o this_o because_o the_o word_n be_v not_o for_o his_o purpose_n in_o conclusion_n he_o be_v resolve_v not_o dispute_n since_o the_o answerer_n know_v no_o reason_n for_o all_o this_o dispute_n p._n 26._o and_o he_o care_v not_o whether_o the_o answerer_n like_v his_o religion_n or_o not_o 38._o p._n 38._o he_o will_v be_v no_o other_o than_o a_o representer_n still_o for_o we_o wise_a convert_v do_v not_o love_v to_o go_v out_o of_o our_o way_n but_o upon_o very_o good_a ground_n the_o bishop_n of_o condom_n have_v undertake_v his_o own_o vindication_n 39_o p._n 39_o and_o if_o he_o do_v but_o come_v off_o as_o well_o as_o the_o representer_n and_o it_o be_v strange_a if_o he_o shall_v not_o let_v bellarmine_n and_o other_o eminent_a approve_a author_n say_v what_o they_o can_v he_o have_v no_o concern_v in_o it_o but_o his_o 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depose_v power_n be_v no_o article_n of_o faith_n be_v now_o at_o last_o whole_o drop_v 3._o his_o defence_n of_o the_o worship_n of_o image_n against_o his_o adversary_n discourse_n be_v drop_v or_o to_o use_v his_o own_o word_n her_o take_v the_o freedom_n grave_o to_o turn_v over_o his_o answerer_n occasional_a page_n about_o it_o 39_o p._n 39_o and_o now_o if_o the_o reader_n will_v please_v to_o put_v all_o together_o he_o will_v find_v by_o a_o easy_a computation_n that_o this_o be_v the_o poor_a remainder_n of_o a_o controversy_n begin_v by_o the_o representer_n upon_o no_o less_o than_o thirty_o seven_o article_n so_o that_o these_o point_n have_v have_v the_o hard_a fate_n to_o be_v serve_v by_o the_o representer_n as_o their_o fellow_n be_v before_o i_o reckon_v that_o he_o have_v drop_v and_o drop_v till_o the_o whole_a cause_n be_v drop_v at_o last_o but_o this_o be_v one_o of_o those_o thing_n in_o which_o he_o be_v not_o concern_v for_o though_o the_o papist_n misrepresented_a and_o represent_v be_v in_o a_o very_a forsake_a condition_n yet_o himself_o the_o representer_n be_v never_o more_o divert_v nor_o in_o better_a humour_n all_o his_o life_n and_o who_o can_v blame_v a_o man_n for_o not_o be_v sorry_a for_o what_o can_v never_o be_v help_v and_o therefore_o since_o he_o speed_v no_o better_a with_o his_o grave_a undertake_n it_o be_v not_o amiss_o to_o call_v a_o merry_a cause_n upon_o misrepresent_v in_o a_o strict_a and_o proper_a sense_n and_o to_o bring_v in_o a_o fanatic_a represent_v the_o church_n of_o england_n in_o a_o ridiculous_a sermon_n the_o four_o answer_n to_o the_o representer_n be_v a_o answer_n to_o the_o amicable_a accommodation_n the_o answerer_n have_v no_o reason_n to_o be_v displease_v that_o the_o representer_n now_o grant_v we_o do_v not_o misrepresent_v the_o papist_n in_o a_o strict_a and_o proper_a sense_n 4._o p._n 4._o viz._n by_o impute_v such_o doctrine_n to_o they_o as_o they_o do_v not_o own_o but_o he_o say_v that_o the_o design_n of_o the_o representer_n in_o his_o first_o book_n be_v to_o persuade_v our_o people_n that_o we_o be_v such_o misrepresenter_n but_o that_o fail_v in_o the_o performance_n he_o will_v now_o make_v good_a his_o title_n of_o misrepresent_v in_o a_o less_o proper_a sense_n 6._o p._n 6._o inasmuch_o as_o he_o think_v we_o do_v unjust_o condemn_v the_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n but_o why_o he_o shall_v tax_v we_o for_o this_o at_o all_o the_o answerer_n wonder_n and_o that_o very_o just_o one_o will_v think_v because_o the_o representer_n have_v sometime_o since_o disclaim_v dispute_v without_o which_o it_o can_v be_v see_v whether_o we_o be_v misrepresenter_n or_o not_o in_o this_o less_o proper_a sense_n and_o therefore_o he_o tell_v he_o that_o if_o he_o will_v vindicate_v the_o doctrine_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n he_o must_v quit_v his_o retreat_n of_o character-making_a 8._o p._n 8._o and_o fall_v to_o dispute_v as_o their_o father_n do_v in_o which_o he_o be_v ready_a to_o join_v issue_n with_o they_o but_o that_o it_o be_v by_o no_o mean_n civil_a to_o charge_v we_o with_o lie_v how_o prudent_a soever_o it_o may_v be_v upon_o another_o account_n since_o if_o he_o proceed_v in_o this_o way_n he_o may_v be_v secure_a that_o no_o civil_a person_n will_v care_v to_o dispute_v with_o he_o now_o whereas_o the_o representer_n do_v in_o effect_n recall_v his_o grant_n by_o attempt_v to_o prove_v large_o that_o there_o may_v be_v a_o misrepresentation_n where_o there_o be_v a_o agreement_n about_o the_o matter_n of_o fact_n because_o there_o may_v be_v mispresentation_n upon_o other_o account_n viz._n in_o respect_n of_o motive_n circumstance_n intention_n end_v etc._n etc._n here_o the_o answerer_n show_v that_o these_o thing_n do_v indeed_o belong_v to_o true_a represent_v but_o that_o they_o be_v too_o nice_o distinguish_v by_o the_o representer_n from_o matter_n of_o fact_n for_o he_o have_v give_v he_o no_o occasion_n for_o the_o distinction_n since_o he_o have_v consider_v these_o thing_n in_o those_o matter_n which_o he_o charge_v upon_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n for_o instance_n that_o not_o only_o worship_v of_o image_n but_o the_o worshipper_n intention_n and_o all_o other_o circumstance_n without_o which_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o fact_n can_v be_v thorough_o understand_v be_v take_v into_o consideration_n then_o he_o show_v through_o all_o the_o representer_n instance_n that_o misrepresentation_n be_v in_o matter_n of_o fact_n 12._o p._n 12._o but_o wonder_n why_o he_o do_v not_o produce_v one_o instance_n of_o the_o like_a nature_n out_o of_o his_o answer_n if_o he_o think_v there_o be_v any_o for_o what_o can_v he_o gain_v by_o show_v that_o in_o such_o and_o such_o case_n other_o have_v be_v misrepresenter_n unless_o he_o prove_v withal_o that_o we_o be_v misrepresenter_n in_o like_a case_n his_o instance_n show_v that_o they_o who_o tell_v a_o piece_n of_o a_o story_n may_v misrepresent_v but_o not_o that_o they_o do_v so_o who_o faithful_o relate_v the_o whole_a matter_n of_o fact_n with_o all_o its_o circumstance_n which_o be_v our_o case_n and_o he_o have_v not_o produce_v one_o example_n to_o the_o contrary_a though_o so_o to_o have_v do_v have_v be_v more_o to_o his_o purpose_n than_o all_o his_o other_o instance_n in_o short_a this_o matter_n be_v so_o full_o answer_v that_o when_o we_o hear_v next_o of_o the_o representer_n we_o do_v not_o find_v one_o word_n more_o about_o it_o to_o the_o zealous_a brother_n harangue_n he_o say_v though_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o dissenter_n misrepresent_v our_o church_n yet_o this_o do_v not_o prove_v that_o we_o misrepresent_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o therefore_o this_o be_v nothing_o but_o a_o device_n to_o get_v rid_v of_o we_o 15._o p._n 15._o