it vp translated the same from Basill to Bononia by the consent of all the cardinals that were about him But the Emperour and the rest of the Princes and Prelates that were at Basill were so farre from obeying the Pope that they summoned him twise or thrise to present himselfe with his cardinals at Basill chosen by Pope Martin as a fit place to keepe the councell in otherwise they would proceed against him as a transgressor and wilfull refuser Eugenius troubled with this message confirmeth the councell of Basill with his Apostolike letters licencing all men to go to the councell Phi. I graunt they resisted Eugenius but I doubt of the Councell whether it were lawfull or no. Theo. Will you trust Eugenius himselfe Phi. If he say the word Theo. Thus he saith Not long since for certaine causes expressed in our letters and by the consent and aduise of our brethren the cardinalles of the church of Rome we dissolued the sacred general councell of Basill lawfully begun by the decrees of the generall councels of Constance and Senes by commission from Martin the fift likewise from vs. Mary seeing great dissention hath risen greater may rise by the saide dissolution wee determine declare that the foresaid generall councel of Basill from the first beginning of it was is lawfully continued alwaies hath yet doth ought to dure as if no dissolution had bin made And that our affection and integritie to the sacred generall councell of Basill may plainly appeare whatsoeuer hath beene done attempted or alleadged by vs or in our name to the preiudice or derogation of the sacred generall councell of Basill we vndoe reuoke frustrate and annihilate If this be enough Nicolaus the 5. that came next after Eugenius vpon the composing of the schisme betweene the Councell and the Pope gaue out a generall Bull for the confirmation of all their doinges without exception Omnia singula tam iustitiam quà m gratiam concernentia per ipsum tunc Basiliense Concilium qualitercunque facta gesta concessa data disposita ordinata cuiuscunque naturae existant motu proprio ex certa scientia de Apostolicae potestatis plenitudine de consilio assensu venerabilium fratrum nostrorum sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinaliū praesentium serie approbamus ratificamus etiā confirmamus rataque firma haberi volumus All euery thing that concerneth either fauor or iustice done deuised granted giuen disposed ordred by the coūcel of Basil of what nature soeuer we of our own motiō certain knowlege by the fulnesse of our Apostolike power and with the assent and aduise of our brethren the Cardinals of the holy church of Rome allow ratifie and confirme by the tenor of these presents and will haue to stand sure and firme So that the Councell of Basill hath ill lucke if after all these buls it bee not both a lawfull and generall Councell Phi. The Bishops of Rome that came after neuer liked the Councell of Basill but we will not striue for that we shall see what you will inferre Theo. No newes for Popes to mislike that which pared their ambition and hindered their gaine as the Councell of Basill did but can you or they denie that the Councell was orderly called Phi. I do not stand so much on that Theo. Then I conclude that a Councell may lawfully resist commaund correct and depose the Pope for so did the late Councels of Pisa Constance and Basill which your Church then helde for sacred and ecumenicall both determine in wordes and practise in deedes You must confute or confesse this illation Phi. I haue saide what I coulde and all will not helpe The Councels you proue to be generall and I see they not onely resisted and deposed Popes but also concluded it lawfull for them so to do Theo. Then you confesse they did and might resist the Pope Phi. Councels I graunt might and did but not others Theo. Why may not others do the like Phi. They must rather obey than resist Theo. We dispute not as yet whether it be lawfull or no for euery man to resist the Pope the cause being iust and when that commeth in question you must shewe good and apparent reason why they may not that which I first auouched was this your owne Cardinales and Councels your owne friendes and fellowes which you may not count schismatikes and heretikes haue stoutly resisted him and restrained and limited his dominion euen in the middest of his pride and ioylitie For Councels I haue saide sufficient Now for others The famous Uniuersitie of Paris which I thinke you will not condemne and the whole kingdom of Fraunce haue often times opposed them-selues against the Pope and withdrawne their obedience from him in part or in all as occasion required Phi. For some monie matters it may be they withstood his Collectors and Officers Theo. The Diuines of Paris openly confuted the conclusions and articles of Iohn the 22. touching the beholding and seeing of God and gate the same to be condemned before the king of Fraunce with the sound of trumpets as Gerson reporteth By this saith he appeareth the falsitie of Pope Iohns doctrine which was condemned with the sound of trumpets before Philip king of Fraunce by the Diuines of Paris and the king beleeued the Diuines of Paris before the Popes court And Ioannes Marius Iohn the second Pope that sate at Auinion fell into suspition of heresie For he taught and defended certaine articles touching the sight and vision of God which the Diuines of Fraunce king Philip taking their part very freely contradicted The yeare before the Councell of Pisa which I last spake of was gathered when Benedict the 13. would yeeld to no reason for ending the schisme between him Gregory the 12. Charles the French king with the aduise of the Bishops Princes and Vniuersities of his Realme caused himselfe to bee proclaimed adherent or obedient to neither of the twaine by them all it was decreed that the whole Church of Fraunce should depart from the obedience of Benedict and by the authoritie of this Councell all the French Cardinals forsooke him When the Councell of Basill was ended the Germans the king of France the king of England the Prince of Millan others fauored the same with all their power neglecting Eugenius authoritie then sitting in the Councel of Florence and the rather to giue it full force and effect in the kingdome of Fraunce Charles the 7. in a Parliament at Burdeuz made a law called the Pragmaticall sanction for the perpetuall obseruation of those thinges which the Councell of Basill had decreed And this law the Bishops of Fraunce and Schole of Paris defended and followed almost an hundred yeares in spite of al that Pius the 2. Sixtus the 4. Innocentius the 8. and other Bishops of Rome could do to the contrarie Phi. Did the Bishops of Rome labour
his brethren vnprofitable slacke in his office silent in that which is good hurtfull to himselfe all others yea though hee leade with him innumerable soules by heapes to the diuell of hell yet let no mortal man presume to find fault with him or reproue him for his doings This is the subiection which your holy father wold haue which you count vs absurd for not acknowledging But may we not iustly say to you as S. August saide to the Donatistes This which you affirme that al the worlde must bee subiect to one man as to Christs Uicar Did God or man tell it you If God read it vnto vs out of the law the Prophets the Psalms the Apostolical or Euangelicall writings Read it if you can which hitherto you ueuer coulde But if men haue saide it or rather no men but your selues beholde the deuise of men beholde what you worship behold what you serue behold wherefore you rebel you rage you waxe madde Phi. If you will not bee subiect to the Pope as Christes Uicar and head of the Church which no doubt he is yet haue you no colour to withstande his authoritie as hee is and euer was Patriarke of the West Theo. His vicarshippe to Christ and headshippe ouer the Church bee thinges that you speake much of but shewe small proofe for It were good you woulde either prooue them or not presume them as you doe they bee matters of greater weight than that you may carie them away with your faire lookes Patriarke of the West wee graunt he was which is a foule fall from head of the Church and Uicar generall to Christ himselfe and yet this way you come too short of your reckoning For first the tytle and authoritie of Archbishoppes and Patriarkes was not ordayned by the commaundement of Christ or his Apostles but the Bishops long after when the Church began to bee troubled with dissentions were content to lincke themselues together and in euery Prouince to suffer one whome they preferred for the worthines of his Citie and called their Metropolitane that is Bishoppe of the chiefe or mother Citie to haue this prerogatiue in all doubts of Doctrine and discipline to assemble the rest of his brethren or consult them absent by letters and see that obserued which the most part of them determined Before there beganne schismes in religion the Churches sayth S. Hierom were gouerned by the common Councell of the Seniors And therfore Episcopi nouerint se magis consuetudine quam dominicae dispositionis veritate Presbyteris esse maiores Let the Bishoppes vnderstand that they bee greater than ministers or elders rather by Custome than by any trueth of the Lordes appointment and that they ought to gouerne the Church in common And in his Epistle to Euagrius hauing fully prooued by the Scriptures that the Apostles called themselues but Presbyteros Elders or Seniors he addeth Quod autē postea vnus electus est qui ceteris praeponereter in schismatis remedium factum est ne vnusquisque ad se trahens Christiecclesiā rumperet That after their times one was chosen in euery Church and preferred before the rest to haue the dignitie of a Bishoppe this was prouided for a remedie against schismes lest euery man drawing some vnto him shoulde rent the Church of Christ in pieces For what doth a Bishop except ordering of others which an Elder may not doe And lest you should thinke he speaketh not as well of the chiefe as of the meaner Bishoppes hee compareth three of the greatest Patriarkes with three of the poorest Bishops he could name Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus siue Romae siue Eugubij siue Constantinopoli siue Rhegij siue Alexandriae siue Tains eiusdem meriti eiusdem est Sacerdotij Potentia diuitiarum paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit ceterum omnes Apostolorum successores sunt A Bishop of what place soeuer hee be either of Rome or of Eugubium or of Constantinople or of Rhegium or of Alexandria or of Tains hath the same merite and the same function or Priesthood Abundance of riches or basenes of pouertie doeth not make a Bishoppe higher or lower for they all be successours to the Apostles So that the Bishoppe of Rome by commission from Christ and succession from the Apostles is no higher than the meanest Bishop in the worlde The superioritie which he and others had as Metropolitanes in their owne Prouinces came by custome as the great Councell of Nice witnesseth not by Christes institution Let the olde vse continue in Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishoppe of Alexandria bee chiefe ouer all those places for so much as the Bishoppe of Rome hath the like custome Likewise at Antioch and in other Prouinces let the Churches keepe their prerogatiues The generall Councell of Ephesus confesseth the same It seemeth good to this sacred and oecumenicall Synode to conserue to euery prouince their right priuileges whole and vntouched which they haue had of olde according to the custome that now long hath preuayled Next their authoritie was subiect not only to the discretion and moderation of their brethren assembled in Councell but also to the lawes Edicts of Christian Princes to be graunted extended limited and ordered as they saw cause For example the first Councell of Constantinople aduaunced the Bishoppe of that Citie to bee the next Patriarke to the Bishoppe of Rome which before he was not And the Councel of Chalcedon made him equall in ecclesiasticall honours with the Bishoppe of Rome and assigned him a larger Prouince than before he had So Iustinian gaue to the Citie in Africa that he called after his owne name the See of an Archbishoppe Archiepiscopale munus quod Episcopo Iustinianeae Carthaginis Africanae Dioeceseos dedimus conseruari iubemus Sed aliae ciuitates atque horum Episcopi quibus passim in diuersis locis ius Metropoliticum concessum est in perpetuum hoc priuilegio perfruuntor The Archiepiscopal dignitie which wee gaue to the Bishoppe of Iustinianea within the Prouince of Africa we commaund to continue still And likewise let other Cities and their Bishops to whom in diuers places and Countries the right of Metropolitanes hath beene graunted enioy that priuilege for euer The same Prince as you heard before commanded the Archbishops and Patriarkes of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem and generally subiecteth them in ecclesiasticall causes and iudgements to the sacred Canons and his Imperiall Lawes as appeareth expressely in his publike Edicts made to that end Thirdly by the right and auncient diuision of prouinces this Realme was not vnder the Bishoppe of Rome For when the Bishoppes of Africa praied Innocentius either to send for Pelagius the Britan or to deale with him by letters to shewe the meaning of his lewde speaches tending to the derogation of Gods grace the Bishoppe of Rome made
cities of Italie doubled tripled to their vtter ouerthrow and by inciting the kinges of Fraunce England Spaine and Scicily to ioine against Frederike which thing Alexander the third a Cardinall of the same conspiracie with Adrian laboured for life to compasse Phi. Could you blame him Did not Frederik set vp Victor an Antipape against him chase Alexander froÌ„ his See Theo. Frederike did not set him vp but when two were chosen in a tumult the councel of Papia discussing the cause pronounced for Victor against Alexander their iudgement did the Emperor follow Phi. He might wel folow it for himself did procure it Theo. It is not true The Bishops of Italie Germany and other Countries were assembled by him and the matter committed as in the sight of God to their integrities and consciences The Princes words in the councell were Though I see the power to cal councels is ours by the office dignitie of our empire especially in so great dangers of the Church for so Constantine Theodosius Iustinian and of later memory Charles the great and Otho are knowen to haue done yet authority to define this weightie and chiefe matter I leaue to your wisedoms and iudgements For God hath made you Priestes and giuen you power to iudge of vs. And because in thinges which pertaine to God it is not for vs to iudge of you we exhort you to behaue your selues in this cause as those that looke for none other iudge ouer you but God This when he had saide he withdrew himselfe from the councell committing the whole examination of the matter to the church and to the persons Ecclesiasticall there assembled which were infinite There were fiftie Archbishops Bishops Abbats and Priors innumerable There were also the Embassadors of diuers nations promising whatsoeuer the Synod decreed should vndoubtedly bee receiued of their Realmes See their proofes and proceedinges of this councell in the chapters that follow and shew vs howe you can infringe them Phi. Alexander had the greater part of the Cardinals Theo. The greater part of the Cardinals had conspired to choose none but one that was and would be an enimie to the Prince to that intent had they taken an othe Adrian yet liuing After his death when they came to choose a successour the people the Clergie were as earnest to haue none but one that shoulde keepe the citie at peace with the Prince Whereupon the conspirators not daring to vtter themselues for feare of some vproare nine of the Cardinals the rest seeing and not contradicting at the importunate clamour of the people and clergie put the Popes mantle or cope vpon Octauian the Cardinall and placed him in S. Peters chaire and perfourmed all other solemnities of his inthronization with the great ioy of the whole citie the conspiratours which were 14 in number beholding al this and not gainsaying it or any part of it though they were present Twelue daies after Victor was immantled and possessed of the Popedom had receiued the obediences of the clergie throughout Rome the conspirators secretly departing the citie not so much as calling the rest of the Cardinals to their election by them-selues without the presence or allowance of the people or clergie set vp Rowland the chief man of their faction to be Pope named him Alexander This garboyle being brought to the Prince by the complaint of both partes he by letters messengers warned both sides to come to the councell that should be kept at Papia and there to heare the iudgement of the Bishoppes for the determining of this strife which Alexander and his adherentes vtterly refused These thinges were iustly proued before the Bishoppes assembled at Papia and sentence pronounced with Victor against Alexander What did Frederike in this case that a Christian Prince might not lawfully do in the like How could he do lesse than cal both parts to the Synod and commit the matter to the iudgement of the Bishops Or how could he but fauour and defend that â—ide which was now cleared and confirmed by the councell Phi. Victors election was faultie from the beginning Theo. If there were any fault in Victors election it was theirs that should haue presently protested against his ordering but in Alexanders there was neither right nor forme of any election They were ioyned in a wicked compact had thereto bound them selues by oth which by law was sufficient to forfeit their voices Againe their own silence drowned their interest when they would not or durst not speake their minds at the time place appointed for the choice Thirdly to their electioÌ„ they called not those who had right to be present to choose as wel as theÌ„selues therefore all that they did was vtterly voide Fourthly they had neither the consent of the clergy nor laity which by order duty they ought to aske Lastly they disdained the summoÌ„s both of the Emperor yâ— councel which by the canoÌ„s they should haue obeied and therefore might be depriued of the right which they had much more discharged from that which they neuer had Phi. The councell was not indifferent The. No more is any iudge to him that offendeth Phi. The Prince had no power to call the councel much lesse to summon the Pope Theo. You speake like your selfe Who called the ancient councels summoned the Popes to be present at them but Princes And why might not this councell cite depriue Alexander for his contempt as wel as the couÌ„cels of Pisa ConstaÌ„ce Basil did other Popes that came after for the like contumacie specially wheÌ„ as Alexander was yet no Pope but in strife with an other for the Popedome Phi. Platina saith Alexander had 22. Cardinals Victor but 3. Theo. So Alexander himselfe craketh whom Platina followeth but the contrary part testified that there were nine on the one side fourteene on the other Howbeit I stande not on these minutes of elections I note first the causes that prouoked the Pope his Cardinals to conspire against Frederike next the meanes they vsed to persue him and wearie him The causes were the setting of the Princes name in his letters before the Popes the requiring of homage of the Bishops stopping the Cardinals from spoiling his churches vnder a colour of visiting them Of these pretences and Frederiks answeres let the worlde iudge The meanes were the Pope did excommunicate the Prince his fautors gate Crema Placentia Verona Millan Brixia to rebel linked fifteene cities of Italie in a league with the king of Scicilie not long before his mortall enimie of purpose to withstand Frederike procured Henrie Duke of Saxonie to forsake his master in the fielde stirred the Princes of Fraunce England Spainei and the Venetians what they coulde to annoy him With these policies he began and with these he continueth euen at this present Thus your holy father with warres rebellions and
Prince tooke part with God then your clergy were but Antichristes Atturnies and all your Apologies Defences Replications and Demonstrations are but prophane brables and quarels such as Iulian or Porphyrie might and did obiect against Christ for that his faith came first into the worlde by the disordered rashnesse as they thought and tumultuous headinesse of the common people euen as the Iewes also disdained Christ himselfe and said of his followers Doth any of the Rulers or of the Pharisees beleeue in him but this people that know not the law are cursed If your Bishops held the faith then had you wrong before God but no violence before men sith euerie Realme may dispose them-selues their Landes and liuinges as they see cause and make choice of their religion and teachers though they take not vpon them to decide and define which is truth and which errour as you falsly and scornefully report Phi. Thy make it treason to call their proceedinges heresie Theo. To call the Prince tyrant or heretike is no point of Religion but plaine rayling on powers which all christians are prohibited That law represseth the filthines of your tongues it forceth not the perswasions of your hearts it is no decision of heresie but a prohibition of cursed and intemperate speech which of duty you should forbeare and the Prince may iustly punish Phi. Shall it be death for a man to speake what he thinketh Theo. If the speach be slaunderous or opprobrious why should it not He that curseth his father or mother shal dy the death by the law of God and the selfe same reuerence is due to the magistrat thou shalt not raile vppon the iudge nor speake euill of the ruler of the people yea saith Salomon Curse not the king no not in thy thought and though Dauid himself in respect of his oth spared Shimei that railed on him yet he charged Salomon his sonne to giue him â—â— his deserts Thou shalt not count him innocent for thou art wise and knowest what thou oughtest to do vnto him therefore thou shalt cause his hoare head to goe downe to the graue with blood Therefore you must either leaue railing with Shimei or not thinke it much to suffer at Salomons handes as Shimei did Phi. The Princes person we will spare but that shal neuer driue vs to think well of your proceedinges Theo. If this Realme haue receiued or established any other faith than that which Christ commaunded the Apostles preached the catholike church imbraced then let all our proceedings bee violent disordered and reprochfull but if we haue not then looke to your selues For the Prince and the Parliament had Gods and mans authoritie to do as they did Phi. If doth not hurt vs our faith is catholik Theo. No one point of your faith which we reiect is catholike And the reformation which is now setled by the lawes of this Realme in matters of religion is warranted by the word of God and auncient iudgement of Christes church Phi. Nay our faith is grounded on the sacred Scriptures the generall consent of the catholike church Theo. Proue that and we require no more Phi. Will that content you Theo. Yea verily But you were best beginning a fresh matter to spit in your hand and take better hold than heretofore you haue done Phi. My handfast is so sure that you shall not shake it off Theo. Your heart serueth you what soeuer your handfast doth Proceeding with the next part wee shall see how sure you holde The end of the third part THE FOVRTH PART SHEWETH THE REFORMATION OF THIS Realme to be warranted by the word of God and the ancient faith of Christes Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to be nothing lesse than Catholikes Phi. WHAT one point of our religion is not catholike Theo. No one point of that which this Realme hath refused is truely catholike Your hauing and adoring of images in the church your publike seruice in a â—oung not vnderstood of the people your gazing on the Priest whiles he alone eateth drinketh at the Lordes table your barring the people from the Lordes cup your sacrificing the sonne of God to his father for the sinnes of the worlde your adoring the elementes of bread and wine with diuine honour in stead of Christ your seuen Sacramentes your Shrift your releasing soules out of Purgatorie by prayers and pardons your compelling Priestes to liue single your meritorious vowing and perfourming Pilgrimages your inuocation of Saincts departed your rules of perfection for Monkes and Friers your relying on the Pope as head of the church and Uicar generall vnto Christ these with infinite other superstitions in action and errors in doctrine wee deny to haue any foundation in the Scriptures or confirmation in the generall consent or vse of the catholike church Phi. We sticke not on your words which you vtter to your most aduantage but be not these things as we defend them and you reiect them Catholike The. Nothing lesse Phi. What count you catholike Theo. You were best define that it toucheth you neerest Phi I meane catholike as Vincentius doth that wrote more than 1100. yeares ago Theo. So do I. And in that sense no point of your religion which this Realme hath refused is catholike Phi. All. Theo. None Phi. These are but bragges Theo. Indeede they are so Nothing is more common in your mouthes than catholike and in your faith nothing lesse Phi. Who proueth that Theo. Your selues who after you haue made great sâ—urre for catholike catholike and all catholike when you come to issue you returne it with a non est inuentus Phi. Will you lie a litle Theo. I might vse that sometimes which is so often with you but in this I do not Phi. I say you do Theo. That will appeare if you take any of those points which I haue rehearsed Phi. Which you will Theo. Nay the choice shall be yours because the proofe must be yours Phi. Take them as they lie Hauing and worshipping of Images in the church is it not catholike Theo. It is not Phi. Eight hundred yeares agoe the generall councell of Nice the second decreed it lawfull and euer since it hath beene vsed Theo. Catholike should haue foure conditions by Vincentius rule this hath not one of them There can nothing be catholike vnlesse it be confirmed two wayes first by the authoritie of Gods law and next by the traditioÌ„ of the catholike Church not that the canon of the Scripture is not perfect sufficient enough for all pointes of faith but because many men drawe and stretch the Scriptures to their fansies therefore it is verie needefull that the line of the Propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation should bee directed by the rule of the ecclâ—siasticall and catholike sense Now in the catholike Church her selfe we must take heede wee hold that which hath beene beleeued at all times in all places of all
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
And so againe of that and such like Many thinges are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in the Councels of those that came after them and yet because they be obserued of the vniuersall Church Non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur they are thought to haue bin deliuered and commended by none but by them Phi. This sense is not amisse if the words would beare it but the text is Esset as we translate it Theo. The sense which you vrge is first against your selues next against S. Austen himselfe in other places and lastly which is it that you shoote at it ouerthroweth not our assertion Phi. It requireth some paines to proue all this Theo. Not so much perhappes as you thinke For will you confesse that no custome of the church must be receiued or beleeued except it be Apostolike Admit this and see whether we will not presently cast off the most part of the preceptes and customes of your Church as not descending from the Apostles and therefore not at all to bee beleeued by your owne verdict And as for Sainct Augustine if you thinke hee woulde saie that The custome of the vniuersall Church is not at all to be beleeued except it bee Apostolik reade this resolution better you wil leaue that misconstruction of his wordes Those things which we keep saith he not written but deliuered by traditioÌ„ the which the whole world obserueth must be conceiued to haue bin commended ordained vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in ecclesia saluberrima authoritas either by the Apostles themselues or else by general councels whose autority in the church is most wholsom The custom of the church he saith must be retained though it be not Apostolike but decreed by others of later age meanâ—r credit than the Apostles if their assemblies synods were general And againe In hijs rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta Maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt In those things where the diuine scripture appointeth no certainty the custome of the people of God ordinances of forefathers must bee helde for a law If the custome of Gods people the ordinaÌ„ces of elders must be kept for a law then the custom of the church in baptizing her infants might not be reiected though it were not Apostolike so S. Austen with your esset cleane crosseth himselfe Lastly where you thinke to giue vs the foile with pressing this place we easily grant you that The custom of the church in baptizing her infantes were not to be beleeued if it were not in Apostolike tradition You haue your own reading what are you the better Phi. Ergo some points of faith are beleeued without the scriptures besides the scriptures The. Sir I deny your argument Phi. This is beleeued by tradition ergo not by scripture Theo. A tradition it may be yet written in the scriptures S. Paul calleth the Lords supper a traditioÌ„ yet it is written Ego accepi à Domino quod tradidi vobis I receiued of the Lord that which I deliuered vnto you The death and resurrection of Christ he likewise caled a tradition confirmed by the Scriptures Tradidi vobis inprimis quod accepi I deliuered vnto you first of all which I also receiued that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and was buried and rose the thirde daie according to the Scriptures And in plainer words to the Thessalonians Holde fast sayeth hee the traditions which you haue learned either by speeche or Epistle of ours calling those thinges that be written in his epistles his traditions Phi. But the fathers vse the word otherwise for that which is not written Theo. Sometimes they do somtimes they do not S. Cyprian sayth Whence is this tradition Whether doeth it descend from the Lordes authority and the Gospell or commeth it from the precepts and epistles of the Apostles If it be commaunded in the Gospell or contained in the Epistles or Actes of the Apostles let this holy tradition be obserued And so S. Basill Our baptisme is according to the tradition of the Lord in the name of the father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Ireneus Tertullian Hierom Augustine and others call the short rehearsal of the christian faith which is our common Creede an old Apostolik traditioÌ„ yet no part of the creede is without or besides the warrant of the Scriptures Phi. I know it may be a tradition and yet reuokeable to the Scriptures and proueable by the Scriptures but the baptisme of infantes Sainct Augustine saith hath no witnes in the scriptures Theo. Where saith he so Phi. In many places Theo. Name but one Phi. There be many things which the vniuersal Church obserueth and for that cause they be well thought to haue beene commaunded by the Apostles though they be not found written Theo. How proue you this to be one of those many Phi. Because wee finde it not written but only deliuered by tradition Theo. You say so but where doth S. Augustine say so Phi. In the wordes which we first alleaged It were not to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition If it were written it must be beleeued though it were no Tradition Theo. You deale with the fathers as you doe with the scriptures S. Austen doth not say the baptisme of infants were not to be beleeued but The custome of the Church in a matter of so great weight as the baptizing of infants were not to be trusted if the tradition were not Apostolike The church might not haue presumed to baptize infants if the Apostles had not begunne it what gaine you by that Thereby you may proue that the Apostles did it and that the Church of her selfe and her own authoritie might not doe it more you cannot proue Phi. But doth S. Austen any where say that the baptisme of Children is contained in the scriptures Theo. What if he went not so farre in wordes because the matter was not in question whiles he liued is that any ground for you to conclude that it is not allowed by the Scriptures Phi. If he keepe silence it is a shrewde signe that it is not Theo. So long as no man did impugne it there was no need he should defend it the question in his time was not whether it were lawful for infants to be baptized but whether it were needfull for theÌ„ or no. The Pelagians held it to be superfluous for yâ— infantes were void of original sinne which was their error That he mightily reproueth by manifest Scriptures and sheweth that infants as well as others bee excluded from the kingdome of God if they be not baptized Farther hee waded not as being not farther vrged and troubled enough besides with refuting other heresies and yet as occasion serued hee brought
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
manifest for Christes mingling water with wine that you are faine to deny the worke Theo. If the Church of Christ did receiue it I will not deny it but if they knew no such monument why should you be suffered now to sort vs out what forgeries you list for Apostolike labours Phil. The sixth generall councell vnder Iustinian receiued the Masse of S. Iames and S. Basill as authentike and proued by their authorities against the Armenians vsing wine alone in the mysteries that Christ had both water and wine in his sacrifice Theo. That councell which you cite was neither the sixt generall nor any generall councell at all It was celebrated 700. and odde yeares after Christ by which time it may be Iames his Liturgie was gotten into some credite amongst them and yet they alleadge neither of them for Christes institution but only that deliuering the Church seruice in writing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they taught that order to perfit the sacred cup with wine and water in the diuine ministration Philand Call you the credite of that councell also in question Theo. I might well do it if I would but follow the iudgement either of your néerest friends or of those that liued next to the time when this councell was called Surius the great Soultan of your side sayeth that some of those are thought to be Supposititij vel Graecorum temeritate deprauati either forged or depraued by the rashnesse of the Grecians And Theophanes who wrate not long after the kéeping of the councell sayeth that those are falsly sayd to be the canons of the sixt councell and giueth this hard iudgement of them vt enim in caeteris omnibus falsitatis arguuntur ita in hac re quoque mentiuntur as in all other things they be taken tardie with falsehood so in this also they make a lie But for our parts we sée no reason to deale so rigorousely with them They were but a prouinciall councell if they were any councell at all for we haue nothing left but the canons and those contradicted by name Next the makers liued more than 700. yeares after Christ and might soone be deceiued by the titles and shewes of these Liturgies Lastly what corruptions haue crept since either into the canons or into the Liturgies we know not and in those cases which the Gospell exactly reporteth as it dooth the Lords Supper we beléeue no man against or without the Gospell And that in Chrysostoms Liturgie water was mingled long after consecration for the people to drinke the booke it selfe will shew you where the words of Christes institution being repeated thrée leaues before when the time for the Priests and people to communicate approched it is said Accipiunt Diaconi sacros calices praestolantes cum feruente aqua venientem Subdiaconum Tunc infundit aquam calidam quantum sufficit Deinde sumit corpus Dominicum The Deacons take the sacred cups or chalices expecting the Deacon that bringeth water that hath boiled Then he powreth in to the chalices warme water so much as sufficeth and after receiueth the Lords body Now Sir with all your cunning tell vs for what signification and mysterie water that had sodde was powred into the chalice after consecration if not to temper and delay the headinesse of the wine before the priest or people did drinke of it and if your braines be not mingled with too much melancholie you will perceiue that could be no part of Christs institution Phi. We find no such thing in Chrysostoms Masse Theo. It were maruel that I should find it and not you Phil. Reade his Liturgie translated by Erasmus and if you find it I will giue you this hand Theo. Your hand will do me no good I had rather you should confesse a truth than hazard a ioint Reade Chrysostoms Liturgy which Leo Thuscus translated into the Latin tongue and Claudius de Saintes a man of your Religion hath set foorth of Plantines Presse 1560. and if you find not the words as I repeat them returne theÌ„ to me for masterlesse creatures which I would be loth you should Phil. But mention is made in the very beginning of the same Liturgie that the priest mixed water with wine before consecration Theo. It may be the priest did temper that which himselfe should drincke before consecration But after consecration before the rest of the Clergie or the people did communicate they delaied it with water in such sort as I tell you what the cause was iudge you Phil. Why this was done I can not so well say but this I know that all catholike churches in the world haue euer mixed their wine with water Theo. Had they so done yet so long as they did it for sobrietie not for necessitie it nothing concerneth Christes institution which we labour to restore nor bindeth any man as a matter of religion or coÌ„science but now your flanting humor swelleth aboue truth and measure when you say all Churches in the world haue euer obserued the same Phil. Name one age or place that hath not done it Theo. That is the way indéed to cast the burden on other mens shoulders which your selues should beare and yet we can soone choake you with an instance and that by the verie confession of your owne fellowes Alexander septimus à Petro Pontifex conseâ—raturus primus aquam vino miscuit instituÃtque vt ex azimo non fermentato vt antea consueuit fieret pane Alexander the seuenth from Peter was the first saith Polydore that mingled water with wine at consecration and ordained that the oblation should be of vnleauened bread and not of leauened as till that time was vsed Lo Sir the whole church of Christ in all the Apostles times vsed wine alone an hundred yeares after Christ beganne the first admixtion of water with wine and vse of vnleauened bread in the Lordes supper which you with forgerie vnder Iames name would father on Christ himself though he in the Gospel with his owne mouth deny it For countries we can giue you the like The Armenians for 1145. yeares after Christ died leauened bread and mingled no water with their wine at the Lordes â—akle See the report of Otho Frisingensis in whose time they began to hearken to the church of Rome Their Metropolitane had vnder him a thowsand Bishops and in some things agreed in some things dissented from the Greeke church Where amongst other things he sayth of the whole countrie of Armenâ—a Ponunt fermentatum panem sicut illi aquam autem vino non miscent sicut nos illi They vse leauened bread in the Lordes supper as the Grecians do mary they mingle no water with their wine as both we the Grecians do These bee your famous obiections which you exaggerate as if they were some mighty breaches of Christ ordinaunce wherein to let passe the holde which wee haue in the Gospell being thereby cleared from
THE TRVE DIFFERENCE BETVVEENE CHRISTIAN SVBIECTION AND VNCHRISTIAN REBELLION WHEREIN THE PRINCES LAWFVLL power to commaund for trueth and indepriuable right to beare the sword are defended against the Popes censures and the Iesuits sophismes vttered in their APOLOGIE and DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES With a demonstration that the thinges refourmed in the Church of England by the Lawes of this Realme are truely Catholike notwithstanding the vaine shew made to the contrary in their late Rhemish Testament by THOMAS BILSON Warden of Winchester Perused and allowed by publike authoritie Matth. 22. Yeelde to Caesar the things which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods August contra epist. Permen Lib. 1. Cap. 7. These men inobedient and impious in either neither yeeld Christian loue to God nor humane feare to Princes AT OXFORD Printed by Ioseph Barnes Printer to the Vniuersitie MDXXCV TO THE MOST EXCELLENT VERTVOVS AND NOBLE PRINCESSE ELIZABETH BY THE GRACE OF GOD QVEENE OF ENGland France and Ireland Defendor of the faith c. MOST RENOWMED AND VERtuous Princesse I am in hope it shall seeme no presumption to offer these my rude labours to the sight view of your Maiestie The cause is Christs as being the defence of his will and ordinance who hath mercifully placed and mightily preserued your Highnes in your fathers throne and expecteth as it were in recompence that the power which he hath giuen you and honor which hee hath heaped on you should bee imployed to protect his trueth and safegarde his Church within your Realme Which your religious and gratious disposition so wisely considereth and so carefully putteth in execution that not onely with good liking you beare the title to bee DEFENDOR of the Christian faith but with manie daungers and some enuie you stoupe to the verie burden of harbouring the afflicted and helping the distressed by all conuenient and godly meanes not refusing with Princely courage and constancie to endure the displeasures and abide the disfauours of such as seeke to restoare or vphold the decayed and accursed kingdome of Antichrist A thing rare in so high a state but a great blessing from God our Sauiour to be both protectour of his persecuted seruaunts and partaker of his sonnes reproches which perhappes worldly mindes doe warilie shun but your Christian wisedome well perceiueth to be the assured signe of Gods fauour and to haue his vndoubted promise of an immortall and farre more glorious Crowne than this which hee hath alreadie possessed you with This good long experience of your Maiesties most willing inclination and affection to plant pietie and relieue innocencie might embolden mee if there were no farther cause to presse to your Highnesse for the Patronage of so good a purpose but as the case nowe standeth besides this generall inducement I haue a speciall â—nforcement to leade mee to this onset The whole discourse doth so directly and namely treate of your Maiesties Scepter Sworde and Crowne that neither I might aske protection of anie other but of your royall person nor such demurres be published without your Highnesse leaue So is it most gratious Soueraigne that certaine your subiectes borne forsaking your happie gouernment and their natiue Countrie vpon doubt of Religion as they pretend haue feated themselues in two Societies or Colleges which they call Seminaries founded and furnished at the Popes charges beyond the Seas the one at Rome the other at Rhemes with purpose thither to drawe the best wittes out of England as well from both vniuersities as from other Grammer schooles there to traine them to their fansies and faction and thence to direct them backe into this Realme for the reconciling of poore soules as they say to the Catholike Church or in truer termes for the peruerting of simple and ignorant persons from the duetie which they owe to God and your Highnesse This attempt beeing throughlie looked into by the Lordes and others of your Maiesties most wise and worthie Counsel was thought as in deede it is verie dangerous and pernicious to your Realme that the capitall enuier of your state disturber of your peace and pursuer of your person should allure and abuse so great a number of your subiectes with a shewe of liberalitie and haue them in such bondage by the Rules of their Societie that they must obeie the will of their SVPERIOR the Popes Agent among them none other-wise than they would the voice of Christ from heauen for so them-selues professe and thereupon by your Highnesse authoritie proclamation was giuen out that none should depart the Realme without licence and a time prefixed for those that were abroade to returne home vpon some paines there specified farther threats if your Highnesse were thereunto prouoked The Guiders of these vngodlie Societies in steede of obeying your Highnesse edict fell to defend their owne act in departing this Land and resorting to Rome as also the Popes intent in erecting those Seminaries and appoincting a number of them to be sent into England to reduce the Realme to the Romish obedience which they call the faith of their fathers And because they were to laie the fault of their vnlawful departure long absence either on them-selues which they would not or on the state from which they were estraunged they declaring their founder by their fruites spared not in a slaunderous pamphlet of theirs intitled An Apologie and tâ—â—e declaration of the institution and 〈◊〉 of the two Englishe Colledges to charge your Christian milde and aduised regiment with no lesse crimes than heresie tyrannie and blasphemie as the onely causes why they departed and absented themselues so long from their naturall countrie agâ—ising none of your Ecclesiasticall Lawes to bee orderlie or duelie made but calling them straunge and vnnaturall dealings violent disorders which to all posteritie must needes breede shame rebuke repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature and most of all spurning at the act and othe which abolished the Popes vsurped power out of this Realme and declared your Highnesse to bee the SVPREME bearer of the sworde and establisher of publike Lawes within your Dominions a power confirmed to Princes by God and therefore not to be infringed or claimed by Priestes or Popes And to make their matter more saleable in the eares of the simple they vsed all their Rhemish art and eloquence to deface and traduce that right of your authoritie and bande of our obedience with cauilling Sophismes florishing termes as if that SOVERAIGNTIE vsed by your Highnesse were a thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall impossible and the O THE yeelded by vs intollerable repugnant to God the Church your Maiesties honour and al mens consciences Of such wastfull words and mightie bragges that booke is full hauing otherwise for matter and proofe nothing in it that is worth the reading much lesse the answering as being rather a Rhetoricall declamation of an vngracious witte than a substantiall confirmation of their actes and
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
that Heretikes should be put to death for onely religion as S. Augustine verie earnestly auoucheth Their sixt chapter is a maruelous profound Rhetorication that it is much to the benefite and stabilitie of Common wealthes and specially of Kinges Scepters that the differences betwixt them and their people for Religion or any other cause for which them may seeme to deserue depriuation may rather be decided by the Pope as the Iesuits would haue it and so they shall be on the surest side than by Popular mutinie and phantasie of priuate men as wee desire and practise or else they bely vs which is no wonder in such Seminists To these trifling and tedious discourses of men trusting wholie to their tongues and seeking with deintie speach and couched termes to hoodwinck Princes eyes and delight subiects eares that all the world may daunce in a string after the pope and his nourceries what other aunswer should we giue then that if there were not a God to be serued and honoured who hath committed the sword to Princes and will exact at their hands the well vsing of the same for the publike maintenance of his will and worship surely Princes should doe more safely to followe that aduise of the Iesuits For their holie father will neuer leaue practising by all the meanes hee possibly may to subuert their states and shorten their liues except they receiue his keyes and busse his shoes The warres of Ireland and dangers of England which this roming man so much bableth of as matters of State I referre to such as be Common-wealth men I will not passe the bounds of my profession the Pope may continue his olde worme-eaten claime to the Soueraigntie of Ireland which these louing subiects pleade in open writing against the Crowne of England and God no doubt hath meanes enow to visite our sinnes vnlesse it please him to be mercifull and gracious to this Realme but as we from the bottome of our harts submit our selues to his holy will and wisdome as well to tast of his chastisement whereof all his children are partakers as to enioy his blessings so let these prophane Rouers and Vaunters vnderstand that the arme of God is long enough to reach euen them and their holy father at Rome and to take from him his desired vsurpation of the kingdomes of England Scotland Fraunce and Spaine c. though he shuffle neuer so shamefully to keepe them in his obeysaunce For the matters handled this may suffice for the manner I haue not many thinges good Christian Reader to warne thee of By forme of Dialogues I thought best to lay open the whole before thine eyes as well for auoiding of tedious repetitions as for adding of perspicuitie to the pointes which I would haue knowen to the simpler sort as farre as the nature and weight of the thinges them-selues permit And being to refute no certaine text I was constrained to take this course that I might in the aduersaries person obiect not only what they had said if it were worth the hearing but I am sure what they could say that the matter might be more manifest If any thinke I fauour my selfe in opposing besides that in euery part I bring the very choice of their strongest and latest proofs as in the first and second part their Apologie in the third their Defence of Catholikes in the fourth their Rhemish Testament whether I spare to presse and persue the same to the vttermost let the Christian Reader in Gods name be my iudge It may be the aduersarie would haue often replied in hotter and larger manner but my intent was to discusse the thinges and not to holde on a brable in wordes and of that which to any purpose might bee saide I haue omitted nothing And yet somtimes though seeldom where the place so forceth I stick a little at a letter and shew howe greate a chaunge it maketh in the sense which is soone missed in the printe As where in Sainct Augustine they printe Esset I thinke it should bee Esse And so likewise in Chrysostome whose Greeke exemplar I then hadde not when I first mistrusted the Latine the worde is printed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Suffer thy selfe to bee intreated to write Which the verbes precedent consequent import should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Suffer your selues to be intreated to write so the other parte of the sentence doth plainly conuince where hee saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and graunt vs to enioy your letters still your loue and all other things as before for is easily ouerseene and yet in the matter the difference is much though not so much that it shoulde either helpe them or hurte vs as they perhaps will imagine In these and such like corrections of words or printes I leaue the learned reader to his iudgement when he considereth the sentence and yet I see no reason why the aduersarie should builde himselfe on such suspected places In the fourth parte I haue examined the chiefe and publike actions of the Rhomish Church which are nowe reformed by the lawes of this Realme and not only refuted them as vncatholike but confirmed the Sacramentes and Seruice of the Church of England to bee consonant to the sacred Scriptures and Catholike Fathers In handling the which where their Rhemish Testament offered any shew of proofe I haue particularly refelled their authorities where they fayled I was constrained to make the Iesuite supply of his owne the best obiections that they haue Other thinges named in the beginning of my fourth parte because the volume increased and they were not so materiall partes of the Church Seruice as the former I haue reserued to bee handled by themselues in a seuerall treatie Of quotations and translations I had speciall care in my copy that they should be direct and true howsoeuer the Composers haue now and then displaced the one and in the other not distinguished my additions which I sometimes interserted to illustrate the rest with an other letter and two inclosures in my copy and this caueat I am forced to giue thee gentle Reader that whatsoeuer in alleaging is inclosed with two halfe Moones though it bee the same letter with the rest yet it is no part of that authoritie which I cite but my adiection to shewe the force of the place I produced because I could not stand beating on euerie word without extreme losse of time and labour The Lord treade downe Satan vnder our feete that the honour may bee his and the comfort ours and abolish the strength of wickednesse till his comming THE TRVE DIFFERENCE BETWEENE CHRISTIAN SVBIECTION AND VNCHRISTIAN REBELLION THE FIRST PART EXAMINETH ALL THE PROOFES AND places of the Iesuits Apologie their forsaking the Realme and running to Rome what aide the Fathers sought at Rome and how the Bishop thereof in all ages hath beene resisted the intent of his Seminaries and vertues of his Clergie THEOPHILVS the Christian. PHILANDER the Iesuite THEOPH
It is so long since I saw you Philander that I had almost forgotten you I thought I should remember your face but this apparell made me doubt of you Philand Euen he Theophilus and though you haue descried me where I would not be knowen yet I trust for olde acquaintance you meane me no harme Theo. If you be as far from doing euill as I am from wishing you euill I dare warrant you for any hurt you shall haue but what meaneth this strange attire are you wearie of a studients life that you fall to ruffling in your latter daies Phil. Not choice Theophilus but feare driueth me to this I take small pride in going thus disguised Theo. What neede you feare if you be faultlesse true men hide not their heades Phi. Not where truth may take place but where falshood ouer beareth all it is time for true men to hide their heads except they wil loose them Theo. Is your case so desperate that you stand in danger of loosing your head Phil. Not my deserts but the rigour of your lawes giue me iust cause to feare that which so many of our side haue felt Theo. Your frindes neuer felt the least part of that they did to others neither haue they cause to complaine but of too much ease Phil. You haue spoyled them of their goods cast them in prisons among theeues hanged them as traitours call you this ease what could they feele worse what could you do more Theo. Whom meane you the Northren rebels or Irish conspiratours that were thus hardly dealt with Phi. As though you knew not whom I meant Their heads and quarters pitched in rowes on your gates and bridges are to this day witnesses of their constancie and momiments of your cruelty Theo. Though I can gesse you only ean tell whom you meane Belike the Iesuits that lately suffered for Treason Phi. Treason was obiected to them for a colour to make them odious to the people but in deede religion was the very cause why they were condemned for would they haue recanted their faith they should neuer haue bene brought to the barre Theo. It may be Pardon was offered them so they would recant their Trayterous assertion that Popes at their pleasures may depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience which Christian mildnes in seeking their amendment and shewing them so much fauour doth not quite them from the lewdnes of their enterprise The Princes mercy is no proofe of their innocencie But in sadnes Philander are you since your departure become a Iesuite that you take their part so freshly Phi. The question you aske mee is very dangerous considering the straitnes of your lawes Yet promise me that you will not bewray me and I wil be plaine with you what I am I loue not to dissemble much lesse to deny my vocation Theo. Promise me likewise that you wil attempt nothing against your duetie to God and your Soueraigne and I wil do the best I can for your safety Without this condition I may not yeeld to your petition Phi. I require no more but will you performe that Theo. None so deceitfull as those that be most mistrustfull Hauing our former acquaintance for a warrant and my promise now made you for your better securitie why feare you Phi. Blame mee not if I bee somewhat curious in disclosing my selfe life is sweete and that nowe must I put wholly into your hands which is no smale aduenture Theo. Were your life in my hands as it is not you should well perceiue wee delight not in blood Howbeit you cast greater perill than you neede The lawes of this lande doe not touch you so neere for entering the new found order of Iesuits neither for infecting the simple with the leauen of your doctrine but onely for making deuotion a cloke for sedition Leaue your vndermyning the Princes right state by these secrete and suttle meanes I see no daunger of death that is toward you Phi. If I be taken with any practise against the Prince I refuse no kind of torment onely from preaching publishing the Catholique faith I neither can nor wil be drawen Theo. Wel profered if it be wel performed In deed true Christians euer endured neuer displaced Princes no not when they were tyrants heretiques for God is not serued with resisting the sword which himselfe hath ordeyned to cherish the good chasten the bad but with duetiful obedience to Magistrates when their lawes agree with his in case their willes be dissonant from his thē is he serued with meekenes readines to beare and abyde that which earthly powers shall inflict And this was the cause why the Church of Christ alwayes reioyced in the blood of her Martyrs patiently suffering the cruell rage both of Pagans and Arrians and neuer fauoured any tumult of rebelles assembling themselues to withstande authoritie Phi. Tell vs that we knowe not this we neuer doubted of Theo. Then if your late Iesuites were sent hither as Pioners to make ready the way for the Popes bull that should disherite the Prince and giue her crowne to an other what say you were they iustly condemned for Treason or no Phi. You shall neuer be able to proue them sent to that end Theo. I doe not as yet say they were but what if they were doe you thinke them Martyrs or Traytours Phi. I am sure they were not For I my selfe came in the same message with them and knowe what charge was giuen both to them and to me that in no wise we should meddle with matters of state Theo. I thought all this while by the counterfaiting of your apparell and earnest defending of Iesuites that you were of that crewe Phi. You vrge mee so farre that I can not conceale it The truth is I am of their societie and haue so been euer since my last going beyond the Seas and am now sent backe with others to labour the conuersion of this Realme and to reconcile men to the Catholique fayth and Apostolique Sea for the sauing of their soules Theo. I am the more sory for it if sorow would helpe your lighting on them was vnhappy your ioyning with them is vngodly Phi. You do the men great wrong to carie that hard opinion of them without cause for my part I protest I neuer mette with a more religious vertuous and learned company than the Iesuites are Theo. You take light occasions to set forth your owne prayses as if it were a poynt of perfection to commend your selues Phi. Though we striue to excell others in learning and vertue which we lawfully may yet bragge we not of it Theo. You need not The maker of your Apologie doth it for you whose fingers ytched till he came to the comparing and aduancing of himselfe and his fellowes in this insolent manner Our wittes sayth he be of God in as plentifull measure as theirs our foundation in all kinde of faculties requisite
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
foundation of the Church and the rest of the Apostles excluded but that which is here spoken to him they make common to all or as much elsewhere to be giuen to all Origen If onely vpon Peter thou thinkest the whole Church to be built what wilt thou say to Iohn and euery of the Apostles shall we dare say that against Peter onely the gates of hell shall not preuaile and against the rest of the Apostles they shall and not rather in them all and euerie one of them that to be true which is saide the gates of hell shall not preuaile and that also vpon this rocke will I build my Church For if this speech to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen be common to all why then should not all that which goeth before and followeth after as spoken to Peter be common to them all Hierom himselfe whose authoritie you pretend as he placeth Peter in the foundation of the Church so doth he the rest of the Apostles likewise Thou wilt say the Church is built on Peter notwithstanding the selfe same in another place is done vpon all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen and the stedfastnesse of the Church is equally setled vpon them This sense doth somewhat agree with that place of S. Paul were he saith Ye bee built vpon the foundation not of Peter alone but of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ being the head corner stone And in that respect Paul saith of Iames Peter Iohn iointly they that seemed to be the pillours gaue me their right handes of fellowship Both these constructions we can admit though we prefer the first as most religious cunning nearest the true meaning of our Sauiour but you wrest the wordes of S. Hierom quite against him selfe all the rest of the learned Catholike fathers It is one thing to say the church is built on Peter which Origē Hierom others affirme in the sense that I told you before an other thing to say the Church is built on Peters chaire at Rome which no Father euer said or thought And therefore if we shoulde graunt that S. Hierom in these wordes spake of Peter what are you the better This is no proofe that Rome is the Rocke on which the Church is built but onely that Peter is a Rocke laide in the foundation of the Church where also the rest of the Prophetes and Apostles are Phi. The place doth mention the chaire of Peter which is Rome Theo. The wordes stande so that they may respect either Peter himselfe or his chayre but the likenesse of the names Petrus and Petra both for sound for sense the alluding to that which Christ spake to Peter in the Gospell long before hee knewe Rome the generall consent of the Fathers expounding the Rocke to be taken either for Christ or for Peter and neuer for Rome import that these words in S. Hierom haue their relation to Peters person and not to his chaire This exposition the place which you brought confirmeth Petrus super quem Dominus fundanit Ecclesiam Peter on whom that is on whose person not on whose successors at Rome the Lord built his Church Phi. The rest of S. Hieroms wordes can not be referred to Peters person as namely these that next insue Without this house whosoeuer shall eate the Paschall Lambe is prophane And why shoulde the former more than these Theo. Peruse the words as they lie and you shall finde your owne error Vpon that rocke I know the Church is built The Church not of Rome only but of Christ generally Then followeth extra hanc domùm without this house What house but the church which he said before was built on the rock And out of this house meaning thereby not the particular Church of Rome but the Catholike church of Christ whosoeuer eateth the Passouer is indeed as Hierom saith aprophane person This is farre wide from the mark which you shoote at Phi. S. Augustine I trust shooteth streight when he applieth the wordes of Christ in the 16. of Matthew to the chaire of Peter Theo. That were maruaile if he which by no meanes would allow Peter him selfe to be the foundation of the Church be now content to yeelde that honor to the Bishop of Rome Phi. He doth so These be his wordes Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede in ordine illo Patrum quis cui successit videte Ipsa est Petra quam non vincant superbae inferorum portae Number the Priestes euen from Peters seate and see who succeded one an other in that rew of Fathers that is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not conquere Theo. This place proueth nothing vnlesse you bee suffered to referre the words Ipsa est Petra that is the rocke whither you list You can not refer them but either to the succession of Priests from Peter or else to Peters seate which is all one with Peters chaire Theo. Why not to Peter himself Phi. That were farre fet Theo. The wordes stand indifferent for both as S. Hieroms did and not onely the same reasons I made there serue here but also the proposition hath a manifest reference to Peters person He saith not number the Priests in Peters seat but number them vel ab ipsa Petri sede euen from the very seat of Peter that is from the time that Peter sate He is the Rock against which the proud gates of hell do not preuaile Phi. You seeme to reade Ipse est Petra He is the Rocke but the wordes are Ipsa est Petra that is the Rocke Theo. There are greater corruptions crept into S. Austens works by the negligence of Scribes than of a for e Neither did I translate the words but giue you the right meaning of them and yet ipsa est Petra in S. Austen may be referred to Peter him selfe as wel as super hanc Petram in the Gospell expounded for Peter which you all vphold But graunt which is more than euer you shall iustly conuince that Peters chaire is thereby ment Saint Austen doth not say that is the rocke on which the Church is built but that is the Rocke which the gates of hell do not conquere not promising that Rome still should but witnessing that Rome then did withstand the gates of hell by keeping the faith vndefiled which Peter deliuered Phi. What S. Austen lacketh S. Cyprian supplyeth Qui Cathedram Petri super quam edificata est Ecclesia deserit in Ecclesia se esse confidit He that forsaketh the chayre of Peter on which the Church is built doth he hope himselfe to be in the Church I trust these wordes be plaine enough Theo. The wordes as you set them bee plaine enough but where saith Cyprian so Phi. In his booke De vnitate Ecclesiae Catholicae you call it corruptly De simplicitate Praelatorum Theo.
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
William Which Anselmus in his Epistle to Pope Paschalis complaineth of in this sort The king requireth of me that vnder pretence of right I should yeeld to his pleasures which are repugnant to the law will of God For he woulde not haue the Pope receiued nor appealed vnto in his Land without his cōmaundement neither that I should write to him or receiue answere from him or that I should obey his decrees In all these thinges and such like if I demaunded aduise all the Bishops of his Realme denied to giue me any but according to the kings pleasure After that I asked licence of him to goe to Rome vnto the Sea Apostolike the king answered that I offended against him for the onely asking of leaue and offered me that either I should satisfie him for the same as a trespasse by assuring him neuer to aske this leaue any more nor to appeale to the Pope at anytime hereafter or else that I should speedilie depart out of his Land And after in the time of king Henry the 1. when the said Archbishop was returning home frome Rome the kings Atturney in his masters name forbadde him to enter the Land vnlesse he would faithfully promise him to keepe all the customs both of William conqueror his father William Rufus his brother And K. Henry as soone as he perceiued the Pope the Archbishop to continue their former opinion against his liberties presently seased the Bishoprike into his hands and arested all Anselmus goods The like successe had Thurstane Elect of Yorke who gate leaue of K. Henry the 1. to go to the councell of Rhemes giuing his faith that he would not receiue consecration from the Pope comming to the Synode by his liberal gifts as the fashion is wan the Romanes fauor by their meanes obtained to be consecrated at the Popes handes which as soone as the king of England knew he forbad him to come within his dominion To this other such liberties of the crown K. Hēr the 2. not long after made al his Bishops Nobles to be sworne in a generall assembly at Claredon In the yeare of our Lord 1164. K. Henrie being at Claredon in the presence of the Archbishops Bishops Abbots Priors Earls Barons great men of the realme there was made a rehearsal or acknowledgemēt of some part of the Customes liberties of his Ancestors to wit of K. Henrie his grandfather others which ought to be kept in his realme obserued of all to auoide the dissention discord that often happened between the clergie the kings Iustices nobles of the realm Amongst the which custams being 16. in number these were two No Archbishop Bishop nor any other person of the realme may go out of the land without the kings leaue For appeales if any be made they shal come frō the Archdeacō to the bishop frō the Bishop to the Archbishop if the Archbishop faile in doing iustice it shal be lawful to come last of al to the king that by his cōmandement the matter may bee ended in the Archbishops court so that no mā shal proceede to appeale any farther without the kings consent This acknowledging recording of the customes liberties of the crown the Archbishops Bishops Abbots Priors yea the clergie with the Earles Barons all the Nobles sware by word of mouth faithfully promised should be kept obserued to the king his heires for euer simply without fraud Phi. The selfsame writer that you bring dispraiseth those customes calleth them wicked detestable Theo. His report is the stronger against you in that he was a Monke a misliker of those lawes his iudgemēt against vs the weaker For these princely dignities had preuailed from the Conquest til that time were in that age yeelded sworne vnto by the Bishops clergy of his realm are in themselues if you list to discusse them agreeable both to the sacred scriptures ancient councels notwithstanding some Friers fauorers of the Romish See did then doe now to their power withstand them Ph. S. Thomas of Canterbury withstood them vnto death chose rather to lose his life than to yeeld to any such customes The. Do you make him a Saint for resisting his prince or else for sauing certaine lewde priests from the due punishment of the princes lawes Ph. I count him a martyr for spending his blood in defence of the church liberties The. Their rage that slew him I do not commend because it was done by priuate violence not by publike authority but his stout stāding in a peeuish quarrel against his oth against his prince to purchase impunity for homicides other hainous offendors against the common course of law iustice I thinke in these daies you dare not openly defend for feare least the world cry shame on you Ph. You charge him with more thā you can proue The. I charge him with no more than your friendes his are forced to confesse Th. Archbishop of Canter when he had granted these 16. lawes which this superstitious monk calleth wicked detestable promised with an oth to keep them examining diligently that which he had rashly done afflicted himself grieuously sent straightway messengers to the court of Rome to signifie the grief of the church his own asked absolution from the band which he had vnwisely entred into which also he obtained The same yeare K.H. meaning as he said to punish with due seuerity the disorders of al sorts affirmed it to be against reason that he should deliuer to the bishop such clergie men vnpunished as were conuicted before his Iustices of any publike hainous crime And therfore he decreed that whō the Bishops sound guiltie in the presence of the kings iustice they should degrade and deliuer to the kings court to be punished The Archbishop held on the contrary that they ought not to be punished by laymē after they were degraded by the Bishop lest they shold be twise punished for one thing The occasiō of this strife was giuē by one Philip de Broc a canō of Bedford which being indicted of murder spake reprochfully to the Iudge which when he could not deny before the Archbishop he was depriued of his prebend exiled the land for 2. yeares The Archbishop seeing the liberties of the Church now troden vnder foote without the kings knowledge tooke ship intended to go to Rome but the wind being against him he was driuē back to the shore And immediatly vpō that when he was called to accompt for the whole receits that came to his handes whiles he was Chauncelor of England least he should vniustly be cōdemned he appealed to the See of Rome vnder paine of excōmunication forbad as well the Bishops as all the nobles to giue sentence against him that was there both their father and their Iudge The Nobles
Importuni vt accipiant inquieti donec accipiant ingrati vbi acceperint Docuerunt linguam suam grandia loqui cum operentur exigua largissimi promissores parcissimi exhibitores blandissimi adulatores mordacissimi detractores simplicissimi dissimulatores malignissimi proditores What hath been so famous for many yeres as the frowardnes and hautines of the Romanes A nation not acquainted with peace accustomed to tumults A nation fierce intractable to this day not able to be ruled but when it cannot resist Listen a while whether I knowe the manners of that people or no. The Romanes are wise to do euill good they know not how to do Irreligious toward God presumpteous against holy things seditious among thēselues enuious to their neighbours vncurteous to strangers They wil neither obey nor can tel how to rule vnfaithfull to their superiours vntolerable to their inferiours shameles to aske bold to denie Importune to haue vnquiet til they haue vnthākful when they haue great speakers litle doers Most liberal to promise most loth to performe most sweet to flatter most bitter to backbite most curious dissēblers most mischieuous traitors Lupi sunt c. They bee wolues not sheepe of such art thou shepheard If I durst speake all they be rather pastures of diuels than sheepe Phi. If this be true they be changed in deed Theo. The truth thereof you may not wel doubt vnlesse you wil now returne him for a liar whom Alexander the 3. 400. yeres since did canonize for a saint but wil you stand to his iudgemēt whose name you pretēd Phi. What els Theo. Thē gaine you litle for the cōmendation of Rome For Hierom doth attribute no more to the Romanes than Paul doth to the Iewes which is to be naturally zealous And this as in true religiō we compt it praise worthie so whē error preuaileth nothing is more pestilent Again this one vertue of theirs is by by requited in the very same place with two shrewd vices Rursus facilitatis superbiae arguuntur Paul noteth the Romanes saith he to be proud of nature easily seduced What els he found in thē what he thought of thē you shal soone perceiue if you list to beleeue him Narrant historiae tam gracae quālatinae nihil Iudaeorū Romanorū gente esse auarius The stories both greek Latine confesse none to bee more couetous than the Iewes the Romanes Difficile est in maledica ciuitate non aliquā sinistri rumoris fabulā contrahere It is an hard matter in this slanderous citie of Rome to be free from il tongues Nullane fuit alia in toto orbe prouincia quae reciperet praeconiū voluptatis nisi quam Petri doctrina super Petrāfūdauerat Christū Was there neuer an other place in al the world to receiue this voluptuous doctrine but that which Peters preaching had built on the rock christ Cum babilone versarer purpuratae meretricis esse colonus iure Quiritū viuerē ecce olla illa quae in Hieremia cernitur a facie Aquilonis cepit ardere Pharisaeorū conclamauit Senatus omnis quasi indicto sibi praelio doctrinarū aduersū me imperitiae factiō coniurauit Whiles I staied at Babilon was an inhabitant of that purple whore liued amongst the Romanes beholde the pot which was seene in Hieremie frō the North began to seeth the Senate of Pharisees made an vprore the whole faction of rude ignorant as it were in defiance of learning conspired against me He y◠saith the Romans be zealous addeth also that they be couetous enuious luxurious proud pharises Lay your one vertue to these foure vices which Hierom saw growing and Bernarde found ripe at Rome and tell vs what you get by this accompt With as great discretion you cite the words of S. August S. Cypriā for the praise of the see of Rome drawing S. Augustins words frō their true meaning corrupting in Cyprian both the saying the sense For S. Aug. saith Heretikes barke in vaine at the church not of Rome but of Christ. And Cyprian meaneth himself not that bishop of Rome whē he saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositu persequitur vt gubernatore sublato atrocius atque violentius circa ecclesiae naufragia grassetur The aduersarie for this cause persueth the bishop of the church that the gouernor being made out of the way the shipwrack of the church may follow with the greater mischief violence Other words in y◠epistle which you quote there be none these differ much from the words which you alleage They baul against the Pastor the sooner to sease vpon the flocke as Cypriā speaketh And so with three maymed and miswrested authorities you close vp the loosenes of your secōd chapter Phi. S. Aug. surely meaneth the see of Rome whē he saith Quae ab Apostolica sedeper successiones Episcoporū frustra circūlatrantibus haerelicis culmen autoritatis obtinuit Which frō the Apostolik See by successiōs of bishops heretiks barking roūd about in vaine hath obtained the highest authority Theo. Meane what you wil by Apostolike See the word frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus heretikes barking on euery side in vaine must be referred either to the chiefest or els to the nearest substātiue in the sentēce Sedes apostolica is neither The chiefest substātiue is the catholike church the nearest is the successiōs of bishops on one side the heigth of authoritie on the other side For thus saith Aust. Shal we dout to cōmit our selues to the bosome of that catholike church which by the confessiō of al mē frō the Apostles seate or time by many successiōs of bishops heretiks barking on euery side in vaine hath gotten the chiefest credite or authoritie By this assertiō heretikes did bark in vaine either at the catholike church it selfe or at the successiōs of bishops or at the credite authoritie which the Church of Christ had by the confessiō of al mē But that they did bark in vaine at the see of Rome I find no such thing in these words of Aust. Phi. The church receiued her authoritie frō the Apostolik See which is Rome Theo. The phrase ab ipsa Petri sede frō Peters seate which is vsual in S. Aust. more effectual thē this doth not signifie frō Rome but from Peters seat As Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede Nūber the priests not frō Rome but frō Peters seate that is frō Peters time And again Tenet me ab ipsa Petri sede successio sacerdotū The succession of priests frō Peters time staieth me in the church And likewise in this place Ab apostolica sede frō the apostles seat is euer since the apostle sate that the words following confirme For in Rome you can recken but one successiō of bishops Austē saith Ab apostolica sede per successiones Episcoporū by many successions
Upon whose cōplaint the good prince wrote this to the whole councel Your synod hath decreed I know not what in a tumult vprore whiles you seeke to peruert truth by your pestilent disorder for hatred against your fellow bishops but the diuine prouidēce wil I doubt not scatter the mischief of your contentiō make it plain in our sight whether your cōuent had any regard of truth or no. You must therefore al of you resort hither to shew the reason of your doings for so doth it seem good expedient to me to which end I willed this rescript to be sent you that as many of you as were present at the councel of Tyrus without delay repair to the place of our abode there to giue accompt how sincerely soundly you haue iudged and that before me whom your selues shal not deny to be the sincere minister of God in these cases The prince summoned the coūcel prescribed thē what they should hādle gaue charge to the parties accused to come before thē sharply rebuked the bishops assembled in this synod cōmāded thē to come corā nobis rēder a reason of their tumultuous iudgemēt assured thē that he would in his own person examin their doings whether they were good substātial or no. This power he chalēged ouer churchmē church-matters not as a violēt vsurper but as gods minister ordained to y◠intēt which the catholik bishops that took part with Athan. cōfessed to be true by their appeal the rest y◠deposed him neither did nor durst deny So the Const. was both an orderly refuge for Athan. a lawful cōtroler of the coūcel of Tyrus notwtstāding the crimes obiected there to Macarius Atha were spiritual to wit the striking of a priest ouerthrowing the Lordes table dashing in peeces the mystical cup burning the sacred books vsing a dead mās hand to sorcery with many such hainous offences leudly deuised by their accusers not any way proued against them yet taken by their aduersaries then iudges for iust matter to condemne them In restoring Arius the mildnesse of Constantine was somewhat abused by the crafty dissembling of heretikes yet thereby may well appeare what authority this Prince claimed to command Bishops release the rigor of their ecclesiastical cēsures Thus stood the case The Princes was often tolde that Arius held no such opinion as the world misdouted in him If Arius saith he consent to the Nicene coūcel I wil admit him to my sight send him home with honor Arius his adherents accepting the cōdition were willed to put their faith in writing with their wily submission so pleased Cōstantine very glad to see them yeeld to the Nicene creed that he sent thē with his letters towards Alexandria to be receiued At their cōming Athanasius the Bishop of those parts refused to cōmunicate with them aduertising his Maiesty by writing the heretiks once deposed might not be restored to their former estate Constantine tooke this exception in such il part that he fel to cōmanding Athanasius in short sharp terms Knowing our pleasure WE CHARGE YOV that you suffer freely those that will to returne to the church For if I learn that you forbid or exclude such as would gladly be partakers of the church I WILL PRESENTLY SEND ONE THAT SHALL BY COMMISSION from me DEPOSE YOV This saith Socrates he wrote minding to profit the church end al dissētion but it fel out otherwise for the citizēs of Alexādria were so troubled with the boldnes of Arius lack of Athanasius then banished that Cōstantine doubting the peruerse mind of Arius sent for him asked him whether he wold subscribe to the Nicene faith which he did there in presence very readily but slily The Prince musing at it exacted an oth that he took likewise Then the christian Emperor finding no cause to suspect him farther COMMANDED ALEXANDER BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE TO RECEIVE HIM the next day TO THE COMMVNION which God preuēted with a suddain shameful death in detestation both of his heresie so long defended periury then freshly cōmitted Now chose whether you wil affirm that Cōstantine was ouer presumptuous imperious in the church of Christ against al reason good order or else agnise that Princes had then authority to require the subscriptions othes of such as they suspected in religion to restore those that were deposed to their ancient places vpon their submission and command the chiefe Bishops for so were both these the first of Alexandria the second of Constantinople to receiue such as had purged themselues in the Princes iudgement and presence to the communion Phi. Uengeāce frō heauen decided the case with Athanasius against Arius Th. No doubt Arius was worthly plagued for his false swearing wicked meaning to trouble the church of God worse with his secret dissembling than he did before with his open rebelling but what is this to Constantine whose zeale to preserue truth was neuer doubted whose care to procure concord in the church can not be blamed whose diligence to sift Arius with an oth could not be bettered We propose not the lewed fact of Arius blaspheming God iugling with man we detest that mōster as much as you but we lay forth the steps of Cōstātine seeking hoping his reformatiō to the end cōmanding the very Patriarks themselues threatning due punishement if his princely will were not obeyed Iustinian in his Code repeateth the lawes of former Emperours not onely touching the Christian faith baptisme Churches and bishops but also touching heretiks Apostataes Iewes and Infidels In his Authentikes he maketh many new cōstitutions in which he disposeth OF SACRAMENTS in what places by what persons with what lowdnes of voice they shal be ministred OF SYNODS when they shall be kept what things shal be reformed in them according to the sacred Canons and his Princely lawes also what Canons of Councels shall stand in the same strength with his Lawes OF CHVRCHES AND ABBAIES guiding the maner of their erection the number of their Clerkes their expences suites and priuileges OF MONKS who shal elect their Abbate what time shall suffice for their triall what rules they shall keepe for praier diet rest and such like dueties of life to whom the correction and ouersight of them shall belong OF PRIESTS DEACONS AND OTHER SERVITORS in the Church limiting their age condition learning and good report before they shall be receiued to this charge their diligēt sober and chast behauiour afterward OF BISHOPS howe they shall bee chosen in what sort their soundnes in faith skill in common prayer and clearnes from all iust accusations prohibited by the sacred rules or lawes imperiall shal be throughly sifted before they may bee confirmed what causes they shall medle with in their Consistories what superior iudges they themselues shall haue from whom they shal not appeale what punishment they shall
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
displacing the truth and maintaining falsehood vpon the Priestes warrant Phi. Let Princes ioyne themselues to the Church they can not mistake Theo. Shal they trust euery sect that claimeth to be the church or must they learn to know the true church of Christ from the counterfait Phi. The Church is soone knowen Theo. Not so soone as you thinke But we slip from our matter How Princes must be directed to light on truth is an other and the next question we be now discussing their authoritie to commaund for truth not their abilitie to discerne the truth and as far as I coniecture by your speaches you be loth to graunt that Princes may defende or assist the truth were it neuer so well knowen to bee the vndoubted truth of Christes church Phi. Yes we graunt they should defend the faith assist the church but we would haue them not go beyonde their calling Theo. No more woulde wee but the wordes of Osius as you presse them infer that Princes may not so much as meddle with defending the faith or assisting the church of Christ by their Princely power which euerteth as well your opinioÌ„ as ours If you will haue these wordes Meddle not in causes Ecclesiasticall to be taken as they lie without restriction ergo Princes must not meddle neither in word nor deede with the defending nor impugning the faith or church of Christ. And this you see were no sober perswasion but a franticke conclusion wrested out of Osius wordes against his meaning against all truth and your owne confession Who in his right wittes will saie to kings take you no care who defendeth or impugneth the church of Christ in your realmes let it not pertaine to you who list to bee religious or sacriligious in your kingdoms The actes of Constantine the Lawes of Iustinian the chapters of Charles the stories of the church the Scriptures themselues do clearly conuince that the best and most famous Princes haue medled in Ecclesiasticall matters the office and oth of a Prince as anon you shall heare require the same your own assertion is that Princes ought to defend the faith and assist the church and that they can not doe without medling in Ecclesiasticall matters Now choose whether you will thwart the whole church of God and disproue your own doctrine or else limit the wordes of Osius as we do by the particulars that moued him to reproue Constantius for his immoderate presumption The generall is absurd and refuteth your intention as well as ours for you would haue Princes medle with the publishing assisting and executing of your pleasures and iudgementes and wee would haue them yeelde that seruice to Christ and his truth which you chalenge to your selues the limitation let it be what it will agreeable to the circumstances can not hurt vs. Medle not in causes Ecclesiasticall in such sort as thou doest which rebuketh his tyrannie medle not neither appoint vs what wee shall doe that is medle not with appointing and directing vs in these thinges but learne them rather of vs which represseth his insolencie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis thrust not thy selfe into those thinges which belong to the Priestes and not to the Princes charge which is Osius owne distinction or else ne te misceas interpose not thy self that is thy resolute will and power to commaund compell vs to subscribe against Athanasius an innocent and to communicate with Arians condemned heretikes which were the two points that Constantius exacted of Osius All these constructions import that Constantius medled in that sort and with those thinges that he should not but they doe not exclude Princes from establishing the truth punishing sacrileges schisms and heresies which is medling with matters ecclesiasticall Phi. Leontius is as earnest against him as Osius I maruell saith hee to Constantius thy vocation being for other thinges thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely and yet thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I maruell that professing to seeke a truth you be not ashamed to temper and alter your witnesses in this sort You cut off the first part that would expound the whole and the latter you wilfully corrupt to force it to your purpose The place of Suidas is this Constantius at a time sitting chiefe among the Bishops and going about to set them orders for their churches the most part receiued with applause and admiration whatsoeuer he saide affirming it to bee most excellently spoken Leontius helde his peace whom when the Emperour asked why doest thou onely of all the rest keepe silence I maruel saith Leontius that hauing charge for other thinges thou entrest into these matters and that being appointed ouer the campe and common-wealth thou prescribeth to the Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops In steede of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you say Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely that word onely is your owne and not your Authors and so be the rest that follow Thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiastical causes Leontius saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou prescribest vnto Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops This is no good dealing with Fathers to forge them and frame them to your fansies Leontius had some reason to say as he did Constantius was sitting chiefe among the Bishops prescribing them rules and orders for their churches in thinges that were both beyond his cunning and besides his calling What things those were the story doth not expresse but saith such things as belonged onely to Bishops Now why should not Leontius thinke that Princes in some thinges had no skill to direct Bishops neither might prescribe what rules and orders they listed for the churches of God And yet your author is not ancient that reporteth this Suidas liued twelue hundred yeares after Christ a man learned but of very late time and far from the credit of antiquitie Leontius himselfe if all be true that Suidas writeth of him had no more discretion than needed For when the Empresse sent to speake with him he returned this answere If thou wilt haue me come to thee let mee haue the reuerence due to Bishoppes that when I come in thou by and by descend from thy throne and reuerently meete me and submit thy head vnder my handes to receiue my blessing and then will I sit and thou shalt stand manerly by and not offer to sit till I bid thee If these couenantes please thee I wil come A high point of diuinitie that a subiect will not come to his Prince but on these saueâ—ie conditions Such fables you seeke to further your cause and yet all wil not helpe Phi. I trust you wil make more account of Hilarie whose words are these We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge be giuen to al iudges of prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurp the hearing of
molten Images And they brake downe in his sight the Altars of Baalim and hee caused to cut downe the images that were on them he brake also the groues and the karued molten images and stampt them to powder and strewed it vpō the graues of them that had sacrificed on them Also hee burnt the bones of the Priestes vpon their Altars and purged Iudah and Ierusalem And when hee had destroyed the Altars and cut downe all the idols throughout the lande of Israell he returned to Ierusalem Then the king sent and gathered all the Elders of Iudah and Ierusalem And the king went vp to the house of the Lord and all the men of Iudah and inhabitantes of Ierusalem and the Priestes and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest and hee read in their eares all the wordes of the booke of the couenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood by his Piller and made a couenant before the Lord to walke after the Lord and to keepe his commandementes and his statutes with all his heart with all his soule that hee would accomplish the wordes of the couenant written in that booke And hee caused al that were found in Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant So Iosias tooke awaie all the abominations out of all the countries that pertained to the children of Israell and compelled all that were founde in Israell to serue the Lord their God al his dayes they turned not backe from the Lord God of their fathers Moreouer Iosiah kept a Passouer vnto the Lord in Ierusalem and hee appointed the Priestes to their charges and said to the Leuites Serue now the Lord your God and his people Israell prepare your selues by the houses of your fathers according to your courses as Dauid the king of Israell hath written and according to the writing of Salomon his sonne And stand in the sanctuarie according to the diuision of the families of your brethren Kill the Passouer and sanctifie your selues and prepare your brethren that they may doe according to the word of the Lord by the hande of Moses Thus the seruice was prepared and the Priestes stood in their places also the Leuites in their orders according to the kinges commaundement So all the seruice of the Lord was prepared the same day to keepe the Passouer to offer burnt offeringes vpon the Altar of the Lord according to the commaundement of king Iosiah Nehemias though he were no king but a captaine sent frō king Artaxerxes yet he discerned resisted the Prophetes that would haue put him in feare was the first that sealed the couenant between God the people with an oth to walke in the law of God and to obserue all the commaundementes of the Lord. And he displaced Tobiah an Ammonite whom Eliashib the high Priest had receiued and lodged within the court of the house of God and cast out all the vessels of the house of Tobiah and commaunded them to clense the chambers for the vessels of the house of God And reproued the rulers for that the house of God was forsaken the Sabbaoth day broken assembling the Leuites singers setting them their places charging the Leuites to clense themselues and to sanctifie the Sabbaoth daie And when he saw Iewes that maried strange wiues he rebuked them and cursed them and smote certain of them tooke an oth of them by God that they should not mary with strangers And one of the sonnes of Ioiadah the sonne of Eliashib the high Priest maried the daughter of Sanballat the Horonite but Nehemiah chased him awaie and clensed the Priestes and Leuites from all strangers and appointed them their courses euerie one in his office There needeth no great skill to set this togither To remoue idols all abominations out of the land to enter a couenāt with God to walke in his waies to proclaime fastes an d make publike praiers to sanctifie the Temple and celebrate the Passouer to seeke and serue God according to his law bee matters ecclesiasticall not temporall and yet in the same cases the godly kinges of Iudah commaunded and compelled all that were found in Iudah Priest and Prophet man and woman to stand to that order which they tooke for the better accomplishing of those their interprises Acknowledge that right and power in Christian Princes at this day to medle with matters of Religion which the Scriptures report and commend in kinges of religious and famous memorie we presse you no farther If you sticke to graunt so much others will not stick to distrust the soundnesse of your doctrine notwithstanding the smoothnesse of your tongues and loftynesse of your spirites wherewith you thinke to compasse and quaile kingdomes Phi. The kinges of Iudah did that which they did at the motion of the Prophetes and direction of the Priestes Theo. You shun that which you shal not auoide Wee reason not who moued and aduised but who decreed and commaunded these thinges to be done Priestes or Princes The Scriptures in plaine termes saie that Princes DECREED APPOINTED COMMANDED them to be done Contradict the wordes if you dare Take from Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosias the king of Niniueth and others the Princely power which they shewed due praise which they merited in medling with these matters impugne the words whereby God expresseth approueth their doings see whether the consciēces of all good men will not detest abhor your wilfull impietie Phi. The Scripture saith in deede they commaunded appointed decreed these thinges but no doubt they were directed by Prophetes and other spirituall Pastours what they should do Theo. What if they were Doth that hinder their authoritie Princes in ciuill affaires are guided and directed by learned and wise Counsellers doe they therefore not commaund in temporall matters neither Or finde you no difference betweene counselling and commaunding Phi. Againe these Princes were before the comming of Christ when as yet there was no supreme Pastour ouer the whole Church Theo. There was an high Priest ouer the twelue Tribes with surer and better authoritie than your holy father can shewe for him-selfe All Israell by Gods owne mouth were referred to the iudgement of the Priestes and Leuites and not to decline from the thing which they speake The man saith God that will do presumptuouslie not harkning vnto the Priest that standeth before the Lord to minister that man shall die This was their commission yet this notwithstanding the kings of Iudah commaunded both Prist and people for matters of religion And so did the Christian Emperours after the comming of Christ for eight hundred yeares that wee shewe commaund both Bishoppes and others yea the Bishoppe of Rome no lesse than others in causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall The particulars I noted before The Lawes were publike
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
Christ to teach and baptise all nations without exceptioÌ„ but we say none hath at this present nor ought to haue any such power within the Realme and vnlesse you will defende that soules in heauen doe nowe preach the Gospel and minister the Sacramentes we see not how the Apostles haue any actuall function or ecclesiasticall power on earth here or elsewhere These quarrels full of spite and voide of al trueth and common reason doe more than you thinke impaire the credit of your religion and learning but so great is your malice that it shutteth your senses kindleth your cholor whiles you would say somwhat to say you care not what be it neuer so vntrue or vntidy Phi. The Princes soueraignty is directly against the commandement commission giuen to Peter first then to all the Apostles of preaching baptising remitting retaining binding loosing ouer all the world without difference of temporall state or dependance of any mortall Prince therein Theo. That coÌ„mandement promise of our Sauior to his Apostles is no way preiudiciall to our doctrine nor beneficial to yours as also the charge which the preachers bishops of England haue ouer their flocks proceedeth neither from Prince nor Pope nor dependeth vpon the wil or word of any earthly creature therfore you do vs the more wrong so confidently to say what you list of vs as if your enuious reports were authentik oracles Phi. You make the Prince supreme gouernor in al spiritual ecclesiasticall thinges causes preaching baptising binding loosing such like be spiritual things causes ergo you make the Princes supreme gouernor euen in these things And here you may see that we iustly charge you with all the former absurdities though to shift theÌ„ vs off you say we do nothing but slander cauil Theo. And here you may see the truth of our speech vniustnes of your charge that as you began so you coÌ„tinue with spite full peâ—â—erting deprauing our words For by GOVERNORS we do not mean moderators perscribers directors inuentors or authors of these things as you misconster vs but rulers magistrates bearing the sworde to permit defende that which Christ himselfe first appointed ordained with lawfull force to disturbe the despisers of his wil testament Now what inconuenience is this if we say that Princes as publike Magistrates may giue freedom protection and assistance to the preaching of the word ministring of the Sacraments right vsing of the keies not fet licence from Rome Is that against Christs coÌ„mandement or commission giuen to Peter the rest or doth that proue all ecclesiasticall power cure of soules to proceed depend of the Princes right Phi. It keepeth the realme from obedience to general Councels which haue bin or shal be gathered in forraine countries It taketh away al conuenient meanes of gathering holding or executing any such Councels their Decrees as appeared by refusing to come to the late Councel of Trent notwithstanding the Popes messengers and letters of other great Princes which requested and inuited them to the same Theo. Princes ought to heare obey the truth proposed by priuate persons Preachers much more to reuerence the same declared by a number of faithful godly Bishops meeting in a general councel But the pleasures orders of other princes prelats be their assembly neuer so great the rulers of this realme are not bound to respect vnlesse their consents be first required and obtained Particular councels you may call without vs and as we are not acquainted with them so are we not obstricted to them Generall Councels you can not call without the liking and warning of all Christian Princes and common-wealthes and if you neglect or skippe any they may lawfully refuse and despise that which you shal then and there decree For that which pertaineth to all can not be good without the knowledge and consents of all Phi. To the Councel of Trent you were requested and inuited by messengers froÌ„ the Pope and letters of other great Princes Theo. To your Chapter at Trent we came not for many good and sufficient reasons The Pope tooke vppon him to call that Councell which he had no right to do None might haue voices in the Councel but such as were his creatures and sworne to bee true trustie to his triple crowne The conclusion and resolution of all thinges was euer reserued to him or his Legates This Realme and others were inuited to come but as suppliants to your Synod to stand at your curtesies and to suffer your selues to be iudges in your owne cause and yet you thinke much that wee refused to come Let a christian councell bee agreed on by all their consentes that haue to do with it let both sides haue like interest in the councell Let your Salua semper in omnibus Apostolicae sedis authoritate Forprising in all thinges the Popes power and pleasure be reiected and the Scriptures inspired from God be laid in the middest as the ballance and touchstone of truth which was the wont of former councels Let both partes bee sworne to respect nothing but in the feare of God to examine the faith seeke out the ancient canons of Christs church if we faile to meete you declaime against vs on Gods name as hinderers of peace despisers of general councels Otherwise no duety bindeth vs to resort much lesse to be subiect to your vnlawfull routes voide of al christian authority liberty truth indifferency Phi. Was the Councell of Trent vnlawfully called Theo. Proue it the Popes right to cal generall Councels that none must sit there but his feed sworne men lastly that he must rule raigne as he doth in all assemblies bee iudge against al law reason in his own cause though he be chiefe in resisting the truth oppressing the church then will we grant your conuenticle at TreÌ„t was orderly called But if these things be repugnant to christian equitie the sincere canons of Gods Church whereby the Catholike Councels of former ages were directed as apparently they be then had your Tridentine chapter neither the calling keeping concluding nor meaning of a generall Councel Phi. Who shoulde call Councels if not the Pope Theo. Shew what one generall Councell the Pope called for the space of twelue hundred yeares after Christ and then aske vs who should call them but he if you can not learn that vsurpation is no right and that generall Councels were called by Princes and not by Popes and therefore the Popes power to summon generall Councels if it bee any grewe very lately and is not yet olde enough to bee currant or Catholike Phi. To the Councell of Trent other Princes consented Theo. Certaine Friers were set there to wast day light wearie the wals with declaiming against the Gospell of Christ whiles your holy
title of vniuersall Whom doest thou imitate in so peruerse a name but Lucifer that despising legions of Angels his fellowes would needes aspire to be singular and alone to be ouer all To let one man haue all the members of Christ in subiection vnder him is not the meane to reduce Princes and their people to trueth as you falslie suppose but the high way to wrappe them and the whole church in blindnesse and error Ecclesia vniuersa corruit si vnus vniuersus cadit If he that is vniuersall fall the whole church falleth with him Yea this very subiection of all kingdomes and countries to the Popes beck made him first forget his duetie to God and man whiles his clawbacks aduanced him to the height of heauen and gaue him all power both in heauen and earth and so quailed disabled all others that they neither might reproue nor durst resist his wicked and wilfull fansies were they neuer so pernicious to the faith or opprobrious to the church For you made it Sacrilege to dispute of his fact Heresie to doubt of his power Paganisme to disobey him Blasphemie against the holy Ghost to doe or speake against his decrees and canons and that which is most horrible you made it Presumption not to goe to the diuel after him without any grudging O shameful sinful subiection such as Lucifer himselfe neuer offered the bondslaues of hell Phi. Nay rather O shamefull and sinnefull report doeth hee require any such subiection Theo. If your lawe doe not auouch as much as I report let mee beare the shame Sacrilegij instar esset disputare de facto Papae It were no lesse than sacrilege to dispute of the Popes fact And the Capitall Register of your decrees Commit tunt sacrilegium qui contra diuinae legis sanctitatem aut nesciendo committunt aut negligendo offendunt Similiter de iudicio summi Pontificis alicus disputare non licet They commit sacrilege which of ignorance transgresse or of negligence breake the Lawe of God Vnder the like paine of sacrilege it is vnlawfull for any man to dispute of the Popes iudgement For all the sanctions of the Apostolike See of Rome are to be receiued as confirmed with the diuine voice of Peter himselfe Hee saith Pope Nicolaus that defraudeth any church of her right doeth vniustlie but hee that indeuoureth to take from the church of Rome her priuilege hic procul dubio in haeresin labitur est dicendus haereticus hee out of all doubt slideth into heresie and is to bee counted an heretike Uppon the warrant of this and such like textes your Glozer as it were falling on his knees and holding vppe his handes to that Idoll exalting him-selfe in the Temple of God pronounceth distinctly and leasurably Credere Dominum Deum nostrum Papam non potuisse statuere prout statuit haereticum censeretur To thinke that our Lord God the Pope coulde not decree as he hath decreed must bee counted hereticall For as Pope hee might doe manie things not only declare but also bring in a new article of faith Bonifacius the eight would needes haue it to bee Manicheisme and that he found by the first booke of Moses Whosoeuer saith he resisteth the Popes power resisteth the ordinance of God vnlesse with Manicheus he dreame of mo beginninges than one which we adiudge to be false and heretical because as Moses saith in the beginning God made heauen and earth not in the beginnings Therefore we declare affirme define pronounce that it is a necessarie point to saluation for euerie humane creature to bee subiect to the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the seuenth produceth Samuell to proue that it is idolatrie and infidelitie to disobey the Pope Hee that will not obey this most holsome precept of ours forbidding Priestes their wiues vnder the colour of fornication incurreth the sinne of Idolatrie as Samuell witnesseth Not to obey is the sinne of witchcraft not to be content is the wickednesse of idolatrie Therefore he falleth into Paganisme whosoeuer obeieth not the Apostolike See of Rome They may be well saide to blaspheme the holy Ghost saith Pope Damasus which willingly or frowardly do or dare speake against the holy canons For this presumption is plainly one kinde of blasphemie against the holie Ghost And as though this were too litle the gloze addeth Blasphemie nay ipso facto he is accursed and an heretike Phi. You wrest that to the Popes decrees which was spoken of the canons of councels Theo. I wrest it not the same place will tell you the word compriseth as well the Popes decrees as canons of councels Sancta Romana Ecclesiaius authoritatem sacris Canonibus impertitur habet enim ius condendi Canones The holy Romane church giueth strength and authoritie to the sacred canons for shee hath right to make canons And againe Sic summae sedis Pontifices Canonibus siue à se siue ab alijs sua authoritate conditis reuerentiā exhibent So the Bishops of the supreme See doe reuerence the canons which them-selues make or others by their authoritie And lastly speaking of the Bishoppes of Rome Ipsi soli Canones valent interpretari qui ius condendi eos habent Popes onely may interprete the canons which haue right to make canons Or if you thinke Popes woulde not accompt it blasphemie to breake their decrees reade the words of Pope Adrian in the same section Generali decreto censemus constituimus vt execrandum anathema sit velut praeuaricator fidei Catholicae semper apud Deum reus existat quicunque Regum Episcoporum vel Potentum deinceps Romanorum Pontificum Decretorum censuram in quoqua crediderit vel permiserit violandam By a generall decree we order and determine that he shal be execrably accursed and guiltie for euer before God as a transgressor of the catholike faith whatsoeuer king Bishop or Noble man hereafter shal beleeue the censure of the Popes decretals may be broken in any thing or shall permit the same That horrible curse which the Apostle pronouceth If any man loue not the Lord Iesus this Apostata thundreth on them that doe but doubt of his decretals This is bad enough yet this is not the worst For Bonifacius a Martyr as you make him requireth al men to follow the Bishop of Rome to the diuel of hell without making any words Si Papa suae fraternae salutis negligens deprehenditur inutilis remissus in suis operibus insuper à bono taciturnus qui magis officit sibi omnibus nihilominus innumerabiles populos cateruatim secum ducit primo mancipio gehennae huius culpas istic redarguere praesumit mortalium nullus Your forgeries be as grosse as they be wicked the latine is so good that I can skant english it yet thus it is or should bee If the Pope be found to neglect the saluation of himselfe
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
the Church of her inheritaunce when your selues euery day if that speach bee not tolerable commit blasphemies innumerable If other examples doe not stay your wisedomes remember your vsual stile for the Pope is summus Pontifex Supreme Bishoppe summus and supremus being all one I meane not in sense onely but in speach also For they both bee superlatiues from the same comparatiue Superior and summus is nothing else but the very contraction of the woorde Supremus So that if Supreme Bishoppe with you doe not spoile Christ of his Priesthoode how can supreme Gouernour with vs lift him out of his kingdome he clayming expressely to bee chiefe Pastor and Bishoppe of our soules and renouncing in woordes and refusing in deedes to bee an earthly Prince and iudge in temporall thinges as the Scripture plainely recordeth And therefore first confesse and correct your owne ouersight if not error which taketh from Christ or at lest diuideth with him his speciall and peculiar title and then if we proue not that all men haue written and spoken in like sort as wee doe you shall find vs readie if that be your feare to retract euery syllable that is preiudicial to the sonne of GOD and to giue him as much honour as you can wish or wee deuise which when it is most is no more than hee well deserueth Phi. You content vs somewhat if you stand to this which you say that you giue Princes no Power against the faith nor Canons of the Church and that the gouernment which you acknowledge in them for spirituall things and causes is nothing els but their temporall and externall might and meanes to see the Rules and precepts of Christ and his Church receiued and settled in their Realmes and to punish the neglecters and resisters of the same And yet your termes were so large that your owne friendes reproued them as well as wee Theo. Neither misplace nor mistake my wordes Against the precepts of Christ or Canons of his Church wee giue Princes no power most true we doe not mary by the Canons of the Church we do not meane the Popes Bulles or decrees nor the partiall iudgements of such Councels as he hath assembled for his faction and framed to his fansies These bee late violent and wicked intrusions but the auncient and Godly Rules of Christes Church generally receaued of all good Christians and generally confirmed of all good Princes these be the Canons which Princes in dutie should not in equitie may not subuert if they wil be taken for faithful defenders and not â—or wilfull oppressours of Christes church For if in temporal things Princes may not dissolue the Lawes of their Progenitors nor frustrate the liberties of their people against reason and Iustice how much lesse ought they to violate the true Canons and euacuate the good orders and discipline of the Church concluded by so many Godly Fathers confirmed by so many worthie Princes and setled in so many sundrie places and ages Constantine saith Eusebius confirmed with his authoritie the Canons which the Bishops had agreed on in their Synodes lest the Rulers of his Prouinces should infringe them We decree saith Iustinian that the sacred ecclesiastical Canons concluded and confirmed in the fower first generall Councels haue equal force with our lawes For we keepe the Canons of the foresaid Councels as lawes And again It hath beene rightly said of Emperours before vs and of vs also that the sacred Canons ought to take place as lawes Athanasius obiected this to Constantius as a note of a tyrant that he did abrogate the Canons with violence and ordered all things against the Canons And Gregorie when it was written to him that the Emperour commanded an other to be chosen for the Bishop of Iustiniana within his prouince by reason of the sicknes which the said Bishop was troubled with in his head made this answere The Canons do no where commaund that a Bishop should loose his office for sicknesse And therefore it is against iustice if a Bishop fall sick that he should be depriued of his honor If the said reuereÌ„d Bishop for his own ease do require to be discharged of his Episcopal function when hee deliuereth that petition in writing it must bee graunted Otherwise I dare not doe it for feare of almightie God Whatseeuer the Emperour commaundeth is in his owne power Let him prouide as hee seeth cause onely let him not cause mee to bee partaker of this mans deposition That which hee doeth if it bee according to the Canons wee follow it if it be against the Canons we beare it with silence so long as wee may without sinne on our parts Phi. Where haue you this place Theo. Why doe you aske Phi. Because wee find the former words in our Decrees but not the later Theo. In deede you say trueth they were not for your diet they shewe that the Bishoppe of Rome was obedient to the Emperour in ecclesiasticall causes so long as the Prince did ioyne with the Canons and that hee was silent when the Prince went besides the Canons so farre foorth as hee might without sinne in himselfe And therefore the Collector of your Decrees left out the last wordes and changed the first by putting the Popes person in steede of the Princes For where Gregorie begynneth Scripsit mihi tua dilectio pijssimum Dominum nostrum reuerentissimo fratri meo Ioanni primae Iustinianae Episcopo pro egritudine capitis quam patitur praecipere succedi Your Louingnes wrate vnto mee that our most religious Lord commaundeth an other to be chosen in the place of our reuerende brother Iohn Bishoppe of Iustmiana because of the griefe of his head Your Lawe reporteth it thus Scripsit mihitua dilectio me reuerentissimo fratri Do. c. Your Louingnes wrate vnto me that I commaunded an other to bee chosen c. which is a detestable and inexcusable forgerie but my purpose is to shew that good Princes obserued and esteemed the Canons of the Church no lesse than their owne Lawes and tooke them for paternes to guyde their Edicts in causes ecclesiasticall as sayth Iustinian Our Lawes doe not disdaine to follow the sacred Rules or Canons Phi. It abateth the supreme power of Princes very much to bee bound to the Canons of the Church Theo. No more than it doeth in ciuill regiment to bee tied to the groundes of nature reason and equitie from which no wise nor sober Prince woulde wish to bee loosed And Princes bee Supreme not in respect that all thinges bee subiect to their willes which were plaine tyrannie not Christian authoritie but that all Persons within their Realmes are bounde to obey their Lawes or abide their paynes and themselues not depriueable by the Pope but reserued to the righteous and terrible iudge if they abuse their swordes to the maintaining of error and oppressing of innocents Phi. Yet this is cleare that the sworde which Princes beare is temporall
Theo. S. Paul expressely writeth of the Prince that He beareth the sword not without cause and is Gods minister to reuenge him that doth euil And our Sauiour seuerely forbiddeth Peter the rest of his Apostles to medle with the sword All that take the sword shall perish by the sworde and to them all You know that kinges of Nations raigne ouer theÌ„ and they that be great exercise authoritie with you it shall not be so The sword is but the signe of publike and Princely power and where the thing is not lawfull the signe is vnlawfull Since then the Lord interdicteth his Apostles and messengers all princely power it is euident the sword which is but a signe thereof is likewise interdicted them Thus much Bernard sticketh not to tell Pope Eugenius to his face It is the Lordes voice in the Gospell Kinges of Nations are Lordes ouer them and they that haue power on them are called gracious and the Lord inferreth you shall not be so It is a cleare case the Apostles are forbidden dominion Go thou then saith Bernard to the Pope and vsurpe if thou dare either an Apostleship if thou be a Prince or dominion if thou be Apostolik Thou art expressely forbidden one of them If thou wilt haue both thou shalt loose both The paterne of an Apostle is this dominion is interdicted seruice is inioyned Gird thy selfe with thy sworde the sworde of the spirit which is the word of God And this Pope Nicholas fairely confesseth The church of God hath no sword but the spirituall wherewith she quickeneth she killeth not Your owne law saith It is easily proued of Bishops and other clergimen whatsoeuer that they may not either by their owne authoritie or by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome take weapon in hand exercise the materiall sworde addeth this reason For euery man besides him and his authoritie which hath lawfull power and which as the Apostle saith beareth the sworde not without cause to whom euerie soule ought to bee subiect euery man I say that without this authoritie taketh the sword shall perish with the sword He that beareth the sword may lawfully put malefactors to death and wage warre with his enimies when neede so requireth which Bishops may not doe The weapons of our warfare are not carnall saith S. Paul Quid Episcopis cum bello What haue Bishops to do with batle saith Athanasius Ambrose Pugnare non debeo I ought not to fight If they may not fight much lesse kil if they may do neither they can not beare the sword which is appointed by God receiued of men to doe both The words of our Sauior are cleare with vs for the negatiue My kingdom saith he is not of this world If then your Priests Prelats Popes wil be the seruants of Christ they must chaleÌ„ge no worldly kingdom as froÌ„ him or in his name The seruant is not aboue his master If the master with his own mouth haue denied it the seruaÌ„ts may not affirm it or vsurp it The souldiers of Christ must not intangle them-selues with secular affaires much lesse make themselues Lords and iudges of earthly matters which office properly belongeth to the sworde and must be sustained of all those that beare the sword The Popes themselues before their power and pride grew so great were of this opinion with vs. When the truth which is Christ was once come after that saith Pope Nicolas neither did the Emperour take vppon him the Bishops right nor the Bishop vsurpe the Emperours name because the same mediatour of God and man the man Christ Iesus distinguisheth the offices of ech power with proper actions and different dignities to this end that the Bishop which is a souldier vnto God shoulde not intangle and snare himselfe with wordly affaires and againe the Prince which is occupied in earthly matters should not be Ruler of diuine things The very same text word for word your Decrees make Cyprian write to Iulian the Emperour if those be Cyprians wordes and not rather an impudent forgerie in his name For how could Cyprian that died vnder Valerian 260. after Christ write to Iulian that began his raigne 360. after Christ But such proppes are fittest to bolster vp your kingdom of darkenesse and error Sure it is which the wordes of our Sauiour apparantly proue that all the Disciples and Apostles of Christ are straitly charged not to medle with princely Scepters and swordes and therefore out of all question only Princes beare the sworde within their owne Realmes and dominions for so much as that honour and power is expressely prohibited and interdicted by the Lord himselfe to all Preachers and Bishops Phi. This wee woulde haue graunted you with halfe these wordes Theo. And this wee woulde haue depende not on your grant which is fickle but on such proofes as we might make iust accouÌ„t of Phi. How then Theo. As the first is apparant that onely Princes haue the sword committed to their charge by Gods appointmeÌ„t so the next is as euident that the sword I meane the publike authoritie of Magistrats in Christian common-wealthes hath been may be and should be vsed for the receiuing establishing and deâ—ending of that which is good and prohibiting abolishing and punishing of that which is euill in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall which the sacred Scriptures the auncient Fathers the Church Stories the lawes and examples of al ages and countries do sufficiently proue as you saw before Phi. This is not it that we stand on Theo. This is that we affirme stand you on what you lift Phi. If this be granted what will you conclude Theo. If this be proued you shall see what we conclude If it bee not shew where the defect is Phi. That onely Princes beare the sword within their own realms which may be and should bee vsed for the receiuing establishing and defending of the faith Cannons of the church all thinges incident or pertinent to the same and for prohibiting and punishing whatsoeuer is repugnant to either in this we finde no defect Let vs therefore see what you will infer The. First then the words of our oth that Her Highnes is the only gouernor of this realm bearing the sword as wel in al spiritual or ecclesiastical things causes as teÌ„poral be not only tolerable resonable but such by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ as we may truly defend you can not iustly confute Next the absurdities which you bring against vs as if we deriued the spirituall power of preaching baptizing binding loosing imposing handes and offering prayers to God from the Princes Soueraigne right and title which we doe not all these absurdities I say bee mere follies grounded vpon the carelesse mistaking if not spitefull peruerting of our wordes Thirdly your defacing and imâ—â—ouing the Princes sworde and aduauncing and defending against
all Princes one that shall commaund them and depose them at his pleasure what else is this but a resisting of the powers which God hath ordained â—recting and 〈◊〉 in the Church of Christ without authoritie that vnder the couert of binding and feeding shall make him-selfe Lorde of all kingdomes and countries Phi. Supreme is the worde that wee most impugne Theo. And Supreme is the worde which you shall neuer ouerthrow being a plaine and manifest deduction out of the wordes of S. Paul Let euerie soule saith hee bee subiect to the superiour Powers If all men must be subiect to them ergo they be superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Consult both your Seminaries and refell this one sequele if you can marie cauill not as your Apologie doeth that Supreme bringeth Christ and his Sainctes in subiection to Princes The Apostle speaketh of mortall men and so doe wee And in comparison with them if Sainct Pauls words be true that euery soule must be subiect to Princes as vnto Superiours our consequent is irrefutable that Princes be supreme Phi. S. Paul maketh them superiours ouer all persons but not ouer all thinges Theo. That distinction is ours not yours we did euer interprete supreme for superiour to all men within their dominions Phi. And so wee graunt them to bee but not in all thinges For in temporall thinges they be superiours to all men in spirituall they bee not Theo. That restraint commeth too late The holy Ghost charging you to be subiect to them simply without addition it passeth your reach to limit in what thinges you will and in what thinges you will not be subiect Againe wee haue inuinciblie proued and you haue clearely confessed that Princes may commaunde for trueth and that they beare the sworde for the perfect obseruation and execution of Gods lawe and publike defence of the faith and Cannons of the Church which bee thinges not temporall but spirituall and out of all question where they may by Gods law command all men must obey them not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Lastly what better proofe can you wish that in all thinges they bee superiours to all men than that their sworde may not bee resisted for any temporall or spirituall cause but must bee rather indured with meekenes reuerence though they persecute truth shew themselues enemies to God and his church For so the Lord in his owne person taught vs his Apostles after him in their writings sufferings followed the same course Phi. Had Heathen tyrantes lawfull power ouer Christ and his Apostles in spirituall thinges Theo. Lawfull power of the sworde to rewarde and punish they had ouer Christ and his Apostles in thinges and causes spiritual The Lord of grace and life being deliuered by the Priests to the Magistrate for blasphemie which is a spirituall crime refused not the iudge but submitting him-selfe to the Princes Deputie confessed Pilates power ouer him to bee from heauen notwithstanding Pilates sentence against him was wrongfull and wicked S. Paul imprisoned for preaching the Gospel required to be sent to Caesar and to make answere before Caesar concerning his doctrine and doings S. Peter patiently endured Neroes sword euen vnto death for teaching the trueth and warned all Christians to doe the like Let none of you suffer publike punishment as a murderer or as a theefe or a malefactour or as a medler with other mens matters but if any man suffer as a Christian that is for religion let him not be ashamed but glorifie God in this respect They that resist especially wheÌ„ they be punished for religioÌ„ shal receiue to themselues iudgement and damnation for God is then most dishonoured when wee make religion a buckler for rebellion If none must resist that suffer as christians ergo by Gods ordinance al men be subiect to the Princes sword euen in spirituall causes as well as in temporall Phi. To suffer but not to obey Theo. Suffering is as sure a signe of subiection as obeying And yet whom you must indure commaunding that which is euill in matters of religion those you must obey when they commaunde that which is good in the selfe same causes which you heard concluded out of S. Augustine before Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Emperors which are made for the truth of God incurreth a grieuous iudgement And againe When Emperours hold truth they commaund for truth which whosoeuer despiseth purchaseth to himselfe iudgement So that all men are bound to be subiect to the sword in all thinges be they temporall or spirituall not only by suffering but also by obeying mary with this caution that in thinges which bee good and agreeable to the law of God the sword must be obeyed in things that be otherwise it must be indured This then is the supreme power of Princes which we soberly teach and you so bitterly detest that they be Gods ministers in their owne dominions bearing the sword freely to permit and publikely to defend that which God commaundeth in faith and good manners and in ecclesiasticall discipline to receiue and establish such rules and orders as the Scriptures and Canons shal decide to be needfull and healthfull for the Church of God in their kingdomes And as they may lawfully commaund that which is good in all thinges and causes bee they temporall spirituall or ecclesiasticall so may they with iust force remoue whatsoeuer is erronious vitious or superstitious within their Landes and with externall losses and corporall paines represse the brochers and abetters of heresies and all impieties from which subiection vnto Princes no man within their Realmes Monke Priest Preacher nor Prelate is exempted and without their Realmes no mortall man hath any power from Christ iudicially to depose them much lesse to inuade them in open field least of al to warraÌ„t their subiectes to rebell against them These be the things which we contend for not whether Princes be Christs masters or the functions to preach baptise impose hands forgiue sinnes must be deriued from the Princes power and lawes or the Apostles might enter to conuert countries without Caesars delagations those bee iestes and shiftes of yours no braunches nor sequeles of our opinion You see the partes proofes of our doctrine neither draw back nor dally but go to the matter and say what fault you finde with our assertion Phi. The former branches of your assertion might be receiued if it were agreed by whom the sword should be directed We our selues confesse that the Princes sworde should permit defend and execute that which is good in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges causes and iudgementes and repell and punish the contrarie But least Princes shoulde wade too farre or tread awry we would haue their swords guided and if need be restrained by such as haue greater experience and better intelligence in those affaires For ecclesiasticall rules and
With you but not with the Church of God Phi. The church we say beleeueth many things which shee receiued by tradition and not by writing Theo. Your Church I know doth but the Church of Christ I say neuer did not doth Phi. Had the Church of Christ no traditions that were not written Theo. Rites and ceremonies she had but no points of fayth that were not written Phi. This is the ground of all your errors vppon this pretence you reiect the vnwritten verities of the church Theo. If this bee an error S. Paul himselfe was the first author of it and all the fathers of Christes Church with one consent auouch the same Phi. Neuer tell vs that tale Theo. Yeas we will tell it and proue it to you Phi. You can not Theo. We can and will S. Paul is short but sure Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God Whence wee collect ergo faith is by the word of God and not without it nor besâ—des it You heard S. Basils opinion before It is an euident slyding from the faith a point of the greatest pride that may be either to depart from that which is written or to receiue that which is not written To that you may ioyne this conclusion of his If euery thing that is not of fayth be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and fayth come by hearing and hearing by the woorde of God ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the diuine Scriptures because it is not of fayth it is sinne Seekest thou for faith Emperour sayth Hilarie to Constantius Heare it not out of the late scroles but out of Gods bookes Heare I beseech thee that which is written of Christ lest vnder preteÌ„ce therof of things not written bee preached And in an other place pressing his aduersarie Thou sayth he which denyest things written what remaineth but that thou beleeue things vnwritten counting that for a passing absurditie which you now would establish as the surest way to discerne the trueth Euen so doth Hierom against Heluidius As wee denie not those thinges that are written so wee reiect vtterly those thinges which are not written For Our Lord sauiour speaketh to vs in the Scriptures of his Princes that is of his Apostles and Euangelists which were not which are in the church to this end that his Apostles excepted whatsoeuer thing besides should afterward bee sayd might bee cut off and not haue authoritie Tertullian speaking in the person of all christians We neede no farther search after the Gospel When once we beleeue wee desire nothing else to beleeue for this wee first beleeue that there is nothing besides the Gospel which wee ought to beleeue And refelling the heretike Hermogenes I adore saith he the fulnes of the scriptures Let Hermogenes shew me where this that he teacheth is written If it be not writteÌ„ let him feare the curse prouided for adders diminishers Yea saith Ambrose We iustly coÌ„demn al new things which Christ did not teach because to the faithful Christ is the way So then if Christ did not teach that which we teach eueÌ„ we our selues do iudge it to be detestable The rest are of the same mind The disposition of our saluation sayth Irineus we knew by none other than by those by whom the Gospel came vnto vs the which at first they preached by mouth but afterward by Gods appointmeÌ„t they did deliuer it to vs in writing that it should be the foundatioÌ„ and pillour of our faith It is necessary for vs saith Cyril to folow the diuine Scriptures in nothing to go from their prescription The mountaines of Israel whereon God promised to feede his flocke are saith Augustine the writers of the diuine Scriptures Feeding there you feede safely whatsoeuer you learne thence count it sauorie whatsoeuer is besides theÌ„ refuse it Therefore whether it be touching Christ or his Church or any matters els which concerneth our faith life I say not if we but as followeth in Paul if an angel from heauen teach any thing besides that which you haue receiued in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospel hold him accursed Isidorus as your owne Lawe produceth him saith A Prelate if he teach or bid any thing besides that which is euidently commaunded in the holy scriptures let him be taken for a false witnes to God a coÌ„mitter of sacrilege Neither Prelate Pope Councel nor Angel may be receiued or trusted in matters of fayth I say not against the Scriptures but not without or besides the scriptures If therefore you seeke to leade Princes vnto trueth you must guyde them thereto by the word of trueth otherwise you doe but deceiue them you doe not direct them King Dauid will teach you by what meanes himself was and all other godly Princes ought to be directed Thy word is a lanterne to my feete a light vnto my paths I haue sworne and wil performe it that I wil keepe thy righteous iudgements And God by Moses appointing his law to be the directioÌ„ of Princes coÌ„maundeth a copie thereof to be deliuered vnto the king sitting on his throne that he should reade therein all the daies of his life and learne to feare the Lord his God to keepe al the words of that lawe This charge which God giueth bindeth princes as well as others Whatsoeuer I commaund that shal you do thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought there from And Esay speaketh not of priuate persons only but of common-wealths also when he saith Shoulde not a people consult their God And shewing immediatly which way they might consult and aske counsell of God from the liuing sayth he to the dead to the law rather and the testimonie if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them is the surest way to saue Prince people froÌ„ the place of torment consequently the best direction for theÌ„ both Phi. The word of God is we doubt not the best direction for Princes priuate men if it be rightly vnderstood but Al heresies patch thence the pillowes which they lay vnder the elbowes of all flesh as S. Hierom sayth and They talke of scriptures perswade by Scriptures as Tertullian noteth And therefore the Scriptures being but dumble recordes that may be diuersly construed and easily wrested there must needes bee some iudge on earth that may bee personally pronounce which is the true meaning and right sense of the Scriptures before Princes may trust that direction Otherwise men may brech what blasphemies they will and pretend Scripture when they haue done as the Arrians Sabellians Macedonians and al other heretikes did and do Theo. That heretikes couet a shew of scriptures is a case so cleare that it needeth no words For howe coulde they treate of matters of faith
felowes the Louanists in their late Plantine edition haue mended the points made thē interrogatiue for very shame But how so euer you set the points certaine it is the Lorde prayed ioyntly for them all and that at this very supper as the 17. of S. Iohn witnesseth in as ample manner for all as for one I pray for them I pray not for the world Holy father preserue them in thy name whō thou hast giuen me keepe them from euill sanctifie them in thy trueth It is a greater grace to bee kept from euill and to bee sanctified in the trueth which Christ requested for all than to haue their fayth not fayle and to bee conuerted which hee promised vnto Peter You doe therefore very wickedly to teach the people that None other Apostle might chalenge any such speciall prerogatiue either of his office or Person as to bee stedfast in trueth without error The prayer was generall for them all by the iudgement of S. Augustine and were it not the prayer which our Sauiour made for them all and the promise which hee made vnto them all euen the same night that hee spake this are more effectual than this The prayer you haue heard the promise is If I depart not the comforter shall not come vnto you but if I depart I will send him vnto you And when that Spirit of trueth commeth hee shall leade you into all trueth To bee led into all trueth is a better assurance against error than to fall first and after to bee conuerted which is all that is promised vnto Peter in this place Phi. Saint Augustine also Christ praying for Peter prayed for the rest because in the Pastor and Prelate the people is corrected or commended Saint Ambrose writeth that Peter after his tentation was made Pastor of the Church because it was said to him thou being conuerted confirme thy brethren Theo. You might haue spared these authorities but that you must needes haue the Fathers names in your mouthes though they make nothing for you The words of S. Augustine which you cite are not found in the olde Printes nor in their copies but crept into some written bookes by the negligence and vnskilfulnesse of scribes and yet were they S. Augustines I see not what you gaine by them Peter is there called Praepositus that is preferred before the rest as also Praelatus doeth signifie both which wordes in the Fathers bee commonly applied to all Bishops import no singular prerogatiue that Peter should claime but the common charge which all Pastours haue And though the words which you quote be neither many nor materiall yet you mistake them For you say the people is corrected or commended where the Latine is Semper in praeposito populus aut corripitur aut laudatur the people is alwayes reproued or praised in their leader or Prelate S. Ambrose saith no more but that Petrus Ecclesiae praeponitur post quam à Diabolo tentatus est Peter receiueth charge of the church after he was tempted of the Diuell And by these wordes thou being conuerted confirme thy brethrē he saith The Lord doth signifie what it meaneth that he did after chose him to be sheepehearde of the Lordes flocke to wit that hee and all other sheepeheardes by his example should learne to beare with their weake brethren and vse that kindinesse and patience in restoring and confirming others which their Lord and master first shewed in suffering conuerting them And this Sainct Ambrose did well to make the chiefest point of a christian sheepeheard Phi. But S. Ambrose saith in the singular number Petrus ecclesiae praeponitur eum elegit Pastorem Dominici gregis Peter is set ouer the Church and Christ chose him to be Pastor of his flocke Sure you be singular men to quote such places and make such conclusions Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastour of the Lordes flocke ergo none but Peter Euen so you may reason The Gospell of the glorie of the blessed God is committed to mee saith Paul ergo to none but to Paul And againe I am the teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth ergo none but he Or when he saith to the Philippians It is giuen vnto you not onely to beleeue in Christ but also to suffer for Christ ergo it is giuen to none but to them If you play thus with Scriptures and fathers you may make mad worke in them both Phi. Peter was made Pastour of the flock Theo. And so were others as you heard out of Ambrose before The Lords flocke not only Peter receiued but we al with him Phi. He was set ouer the church The. And so are al Pastors Our Sauiour saith of teachers in generall Who then is a faithfull seruant wise whom his master hath set ouer his household to giue them meate in season S. Cyprian speaking of himselfe saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositum persequitur For this he persueth the ruler or ouerseer of the church S. Augustine saith Praepositi intelligendi sunt per quos ecclesia nunc gubernatur They must be taken for ouerseers of the church by whom the church is nowe gouerned And againe Sunt quidam Ecclesiae praepositi de quibus Paulus dicit sua quaerentes There are some ouerseers of the church of whom Paul saith they seeke their owne So that Praepositus and Pastor Ecclesiae bee not titles proper to Peter but stiles common to all Bishops and therefore by them you can inferre nothing But where all this while are your proofes that Peter could not erre which is the frame that you would fasten on these wordes Why proue you thinges superfluous and skip that which is most in question betwixt vs What father euer saide that these wordes of our Sauiour made Peter free from falling or erring From desperation irrepentance the Lords praier saued him recouered him when he was ready to perish from falling or erring hee was defended no more than the rest nay not so much They fled forsooke their master he presuming farther sped worse as the Lord fortold him the Gospel reporteth of him And were that proued which you neither offer nor are able to proue yet doth it not belong to the Bishop of Rome which is it that we sticke at For touching Peters person and office we can soone be intreated to thinke and speake the best And though we do not say as you do that truth was tied to his sleeue only yet are we of opinion that he and his fellow Disciples were guided into all truth as by whom the church was first to bee planted and from whome the faithfull were to receiue the word of truth the foundation of their faith And therefore we nothing doubt but as the writings of Peter Paul Iames Iohn Iude Matthew bee canonical Scriptures so the preaching not of Peter onely but of all the rest
after they were indued with the power of the holy Ghost from aboue was assured truth void of all error the same spirit ruling their tongues that guided their pens But this priuilege to teach and write trueth without error was annexed to Peters person not conueied along to his successors no more thā their writings are canonicall because his were Phi. This was not the priuilege of S. Peters person but of his office that he should not faile in faith The. If you ment that other Apostles which were of the same office with him were to haue the same priuilege as well as he you saide right for the churches of Christ in all places where Peter neuer preached needed the same assurance of faith the same direction vnto trueth that the churches did which were planted by Peter But you will haue this priuilege remaine to some successor after Peters death and for that you shew vs no authority besides your owne which God knoweth is very simple Phi. Al the fathers applie this priuilege of not failing in faith to the Romane church Peters successours in the same Theo. You belie all the Fathers with one breath but that you haue a priuilege to say what you list in other men this were an arrogant an impudent lie What fathers I praie you applie this promise of not failing in faith to the Romane Church You say al for discharge of your credit let vs heare some Phi. S. Barnard writing to Pope Innocentius saith To what other See was it euer said I haue praied for thee Peter that thy faith do not faile Theo. Could you find no father for the space of 1100. yeres that euer applied these wordes to the church of Rome before Bernard To be plaine with you masters Bernard is too yōg to cary the name of antiquitie too single to haue the credit of al the fathers But with thē that haue no mo one must go for all Indeed all the fathers that euer applied this priuilege to the church of Rome are poore Bernard more than a 1000. yeres after Christ in the midst of corruption but in this case wee require some grauer and elder father than Bernard Phi. To the which saith S. Cyprian infidelity or false saith can not come Theo. To which what church or successors Phi. Which you wil. And where you require fathers that the church of Rome can not er Cypriās words be very plaine Post ista nauigare audent ad Petri cathedram atque ecclesiam Principalem vnde vmtas Sacerdotalis exorta est a schismaticis profanis literas ferre nec cogitare eos esse Romanos quorū fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est ad quos persidia habere non possit accessum After al this they dare saile cary letters frō schismatiks profane persons to the chaire of Peter the principal church whence priestly vnity had her beginning do not remēber the Romanes to be those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom infidelity cā not come Theo. You do wel to repeate the place at large it wil ease me of some paines What conclude you of these words Phi. That the Bishop of Rome can not er Theo. How fet you that about Phi. To Peters chaire infidelitie can not come Theo. Those be not Cypriās words Phi. To the Romanes he saith infidelity cā not come Theo. He addeth somwhat more whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. All the better For if S. Paul praised their faith it was the truer Theo. But whose faith did Paul praise the Bishops or the peoples Phi. Why aske you that Theo. Because that directeth the sense of Cyprians words Phi. Whose say you Theo. I aske you you returne it to me Well then let S. Paul speake for vs both I thanke my God through Iesus Christ for you all because your faith is renoumed throughout the whole world You al containeth as well the people that receiued the faith as the Preachers that taught it and of the twaine rather the people than the Preachers because the preaching of the faith was as true elsewhere as in Rome but either the zeale deuotion of the people in receiuing the faith was greater at Rome than elsewhere as S. Hierom noteth that S. Paul commendeth or else because their citie was imperiall the fame of their receiuing the gospel was bruted farther abroad thā of other smaler cities did incourage others to go forward with the more boldnes for the which Paul thāketh God Take which you wil the peoples faith is it that S. Paul praiseth as his own words witnesse To you all that are at Rome I thanke my God for you all because your faith is made manifest to al the world Now if Cyprian say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes whose saith was praised by the Apostles mouth then can none of the people of Rome erre because the faith of them all was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. The church of Rome can not erre nor the people neither so long as they follow the faith of that church Theo. But if you build this on Cyprians words you must say that the church of Rome can not erre so long as shee followeth the people of Rome for their faith was praised by the Apostle And therefore choose whether you will impart this priuiledge to euery Citizen and Artisant in Rome that they can not erre as well as to the Pope that hee can not erre or else seeke for an other meaning of Cyprians saying Phi. What other meaning should we seeke for be not the wordes plaine enough Theo. You neither translate them right nor applie them right For Cyprian doth not discourse in that epistle whether the Romanes them-selues may fall from the faith but whether wicked persons reiected in other places from the communion should haue any refuge or find any fauour at Rome that he largely dissuadeth bringing this amongst others for a reason that where the Apostle praised the people of Rome in his time for their zealous imbracing the faith of Christ and incouraging others to doe the like it would nowe bee a great shame if wicked disturbers of the faith should bee succoured by them which he thought good to expresse in these words Neither doe they remember the Romanes to bee those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom wickednes or vnfaithfulnesse may not haue accesse Phi. Out vpon you what a gloze haue you brought vs here Theo. None but such as the whole Epistle shal iustifie Phi. You translate non possit may not Theo. A foule ouersight I assure you as though the very children in Grammer scholes did not learne that posse doth signifie to may or can or your law it selfe did not allow vs that exposition when it saith Id dicimur posse quod de iure possumus we can
which is good and religious to your priuate conceit which sauoreth altogither of mere vanitie and open flattery Phi. What S. Hierom meant God doth know you do not Theo. No more do you but yâ— hee meant not this which you would father on him we haue his owne witnes which you must beleeue vnlesse you can shewe better Thus hee complaineth of the Romanes both Pristes people in the epitaph of Marcella Haeretica in hijs Prouincijs exorta tempestas nauemplenam blasphemiarum Romano intulit portuâ— c. Romanae fidei purissimum fontem caeno lutosa permiscuere vestigia Tunc sancta Marcella postquam sensit fidem Apostolico ore laudatam in plerisque violari ita vt sacerdotes quoque ac nonnullos Monachorum maximeque seculi homines in assensum sui traheret ac simplicitati illuderet episcopi publice restitit An hereticall tempest rising in these Countries of the East caried full saile into the hauen of Rome c. vncleane feete did trouble with mud the most pure fountaine of the Romane faith Then holy Marcella when shee sawe the faith praised by the Apostles mouth violated in most thinges so that this heresie drew the Priestes and some Monkes and specially laimen into the consent of it selfe and deluded the simplicitie of the Bishop of Rome shee began to resist openly Note Sir that come to passe in Hieroms age and knowledge which you would proue by Hieroms words to be in all ages impossible The fountaine of the Romane faith defiled with mud the faith praised by the Apostles violated in most things the Priests the people drawen into the same consent the seely Bishop of Rome abused by them and the first that openly resisted a poore widow Go then and blaze to the world as you haue done in your magistrall annotations or rather deprauations of the new Testament which as you haue dressed it with your deuises and glozes is now nothing lesse than the Testament of Christ proclaime I say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes nor their faith be possibly changed that vpon the credits of Cyprian Hierom when they themselues did see and say the contrary Phi. We take no such care for the people of Rome whether they may straie from the faith or no Peters successour is he that our eyes are and ought to bee rather bent on and touching his holines we be resolued that he can not erre in faith Theo. His holinesse hath very good lucke then and better than all his neighbours besides but how shall wee knowe that hee can not erre Your worde is too weake to be taken for a matter of such weight fathers you bring none Scriptures you haue none which way will you make it appeare that his holinesse can not be stained with error Phi. No maruell that our Master would haue his vicars Consistorie and seate infallible seeing euen in the olde law the high Priesthood and chaire of Moses wanted not great priuilege in this case though nothing like the churches and Peters prerogatiue Theo. But we maruell where you finde that Christ would haue any vicar or that his vicars Seat is infallible or that the Bishop is that vicar which you speake of and we most maruell that you auouch al this vpon your single report without script or scrole to confirme the same The chaire of Moses had no such priuilege as you chalenge The people were to learne the law of God at the Priestes handes and hee that presumptuouslie despised the Priest or Magistrate giuing iudgement according to the tenour of Gods law died the death But this doth not proue that either the Priest or the Magistrate coulde not erre or that the Prophetes did not iustly reproue the Priestes when they sate to iudge according to the lawe for their manifest contempts breaches of the Law God by the mouth oâ— Malachy both describeth what the Priestes should do declareth what the Priests had done The Priestes lippes should preserue knowledge and they shoulde seeke the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But yee are gone out of the way O ye Priests ye haue caused many to fall by the lawe ye haue broken the couenant of Leui saith the Lord of hostes This proude priuilege which you mention was claimed by the wicked Priestes in Ieremies time Come say they let vs imagine some deuise against Ieremie for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophet But God assureth them by his Prophet for this their arrogant presumption that the law should perish from the Priest and counsell from the auncient What grosse idolatrie Vriah the Priest committed to please king Ahaz the Scripture will tell you And were there no speciall examples the serious inuectiues of the Prophets against them and the whole land as well for false religion as corrupt manners are euident testimonies that Priestes from the lowest to the highest might erre Esaie saith The Priest and the Prophet haue erred they haue gone awaie they faile in vision they stumble in iudgement Our Sauiour charged his Disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadduces which needed not vnlesse it were erronious And think you these were no errours which the Sonne of God reproued in the Pharisees You haue made the coÌ„maundement of God of no authoritie by your tradition many such like things you do teaching for doctrines the commandements of men The Sadduces errour denying both the resurrection of the bodie and immortality of the soule is often mentioned in the Scriptures and openly refuted by our Sauior And yet the high Priestes were often Sadduces and in the chiefe councels consistories of Ierusalem where the greatest causes of religion and matters of weight were determined sate halfe Sadduces halfe Pharisees sometimes only Sadduces which were plaine Atheisâ—s and wicked heretikes Phi. That ouerthroweth not Peters priuilege Theo. Much lesse doth it establish Peters priuilege for the which cause you allege it but if Moses successour might erre why not Peters Phi. Our assertion is they can not erre you say they can Reason is that you proue your affirmatiue Theo. The Scripture proueth the generall that God is true and all men lyars you except the Bishoppe of Rome as not subiect to errour and ignoraunce reason is you proue your exception and that strongly least you bee conuicted of insolent presumption to fasten the spirite of truth to the Popes chaire without great and good assurance from him that is the fountaine of truth and the giuer of the holy Ghost Phi. We hold by Christes promise Theo. Shew that and you be discharged Phi. Thy faith shall not faile Theo. Proue that to bee spoken to the Bishoppe of Rome Phi. It was spoken to Peter Theo. But not to the Pope Phi. That which Peter had his successour
a Prince you shall neuer shewe Omitte Abimelech whom Saul slewe for fauouring Dauid and Zachariah whom king Ioash commaunded to bee stoned not remembring the kindnes of Ioida his father that saued him aliue and set him in his kingdome Did not Salomon cast out Abiathar from being high Priest because hee tooke part with Adoniah his elder brother Where by your conclusion Salomon shoulde haue beene deposed because the high Priest thought Adoniahs right to the Crowne to bee better than Salomons Wee shewe you where the Prince remoued the Priest from his honour and primacie but you can not shewe vs that euer Priest remooued Prince in that Common wealth from his royal dignitie and yet was there then as vrgent and as euident cause to do it as you can nowe or doe pretend For all the kings of Israel were open Idolaters Iehu himselfe not excepted and yet not one of them deposed by Priest or Prophet so long as their kingdome stoode which was 253. yeeres The greater part of the kinges of Iudah euen foureteene of them were likewise plaine Idolaters as Salomon Roboam Abiam Ioram Ahaziah Ioash Amazias Ahaz Manasses Amon Ioachaz Eliakim Ioacim Zedechias and not a Priest or Prophete in Iudah so much as offered to displace or resist one of them If by Gods Lawe as you suppose the Priestes were superiour Iudges to punish such offences euen in princes howe can you excuse the high Priest and the rest to whom that charge was committed for not executing that power which God gaue them vpon these wicked and Idolatrous Princes Phi. The kinges were too mightie for them to remoue Theo. That happilie might hinder the effect but not the attempt of their iudgement We doe not obiect that they were vnable but that they neuer made the onset or offer to doe it Phi. The crueltie of those kinges caused them to forbeare Theo. That is not true Many Priests and Prophetes gaue their liues for reproouing them and more it coulde not cost to depose them Againe Manasses was caried captiue out of his Realme in the midst of his furious Idolatrie and yet in his absence and miserie no man stirred against him but his kingdome was reserued for him till hee was released out of prison and sent backe from Babylon It was therefore not for feare of death but for regard of duetie that the zealous Priests and Prophetes submitted their persons to those wicked Princes whose Idolatrie they reproued with the losse of their liues Phi. This coâ—dition was afterwarde to bee imâ—lied in the receiuing of any king ouer the people of God and true beleeuers for euer videlicet that they should not reduce their people by force or otherwise from the faith of their forefathers and the religion and holy ceremonies thereof receiued at the hands of Gods Priests and none other Insinuating that obseâ—uing these precepts and conditions hee and his sonne after him might long reigne Otherwise as by the practise of their deposition in the bookes and tyme of the kinges it afterward â—ppeareth whereof we haue set downe some examples before the Prophets and Pristes that annointed them of no other condition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Theo. God would haue the more care to be taken in choosing a king because it was too late to refuse him when he was once chosen But I trust your selfe will not say that all those conditions which God requireth in a king are forfeitures of his Crowne if he transgresse in any of them GOD in expresse woordes and in the very same place chargeth that the king shall not haue many wiues nor many horses nor abundaunce of golde nor siluer nor lift his heart vp aboue his brethren and thinke you that if a king did offend in any of these he was to bee deposed The precept which your selfe alleage doth not onely concerne the publike sufferance of true religion but the perfect obseruance of euery point that was contained in the lawe of God Hee shall read in the booke of the Lawe all the dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to obserue all the woordes of this Lawe and these statutes to doe them And trowe you the breach of any point of Gods Lawe was depriuation to the king You must bee voyde of all sense if you defend these thinges and yet these bee conditions or as you delight to call them couenants which God exacteth in him that shall bee king ouer his elect and peculiar people The knitting vppe of your matter is like the rest of your discourse The Prophetes and Priestes you say that annointed them of no other coâ—dition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his true worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like It is vtterly vntrue that euer Priest or Prophete deposed Prince in the common wealthes of Israel or Iudah There were as the Scripture testifieth of the kinges of Israel nineteene and fourteene of the kinges of Iuda that brake with their Lorde and sell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Shewe that one of them was depriued by any Priest or Prophete and take the whole if you can not leaue false supposing and vaine craking and tell on your tale Phi. And this it was in the old law But now in the new Testament and in the time of Christs spirituall kingdome in the Church Priests haue much more soueraigne authoritie and Princes farre more strict charge to obay loue and cherish the Church Theo. What was in the olde Lawe you haue sayd and wee haue seene and except I bee deceiued you found there very litle for your purpose In the newe Testament I can assure you you will find lesse Where you say that Priests now in the Church haue much more soueraigne authoritie than Priests had in the law of Moses the comparing of their authorities is very superfluous Haue they more or lesse it is nothing to this question Authoritie to depose Princes they neither then had nor nowe haue which is it that you seeke for In what sort Princes are bound to loue cherish and obey the Church was declared before and neede not nowe bee repeated But the Church is neither charged nor licenced by Christ to take Princes Crownes from them Subiection is rather enioyned her in earthly thinges vnto Princes which can not stand with your thrusting them from their thrones vnlesse you take rebellion to be subiection which were very strange And depriuing them of their right is worse than rebelling against theÌ„ to defend your right which yet is not tolerable For he that resisteth them shall receiue iudgement Phi. In the Church without fayle is the supereminent power of Christes
to them at their cōming to Rome yet the attempt was so strange that Otho Frisingensis saith See the kingdome decreasing and the Church aspiring to that authoritie that she will iudge kings The famous and as you say maiesticall excommunication of Arcadius and Eudoxia by Innocentius well neere 1200. yeres agoe is a ridiculous and peeuish corruption deuised by some practiser at Rome and embraced ouer greedily by Nicephorus and other later Grecians in fauour of Chrysostome Which insolent fansie wide from the matter we striue for and full of forgerie because it is refuted before I may well ouerskippe If it were true as it is apparently false it remoueth Princes from the Sacraments but not from their Scepters Thus of seuen examples pretended that Princes were excōmunicated in the auncient times of the Church only one is duely proued and no mo within 860. yeres after Christ that not by the Bishop of Rome but by S. Ambrose Bishop of Millan The rest are either enforced against the stories of the Church or boldly presumed by you besides the stories And yet were they all prooued and confessed they make nothing for your purpose The question is not whether bishops shall receiue kinges with open and obstinate vices to the Lordes table but whether they may chase them from their kingdomes or no. We mislike not repentance in Princes but resistance in subiects bind their sinnes as fast as you can but pul them not downe from their Seates And yet least you should thinke that Princes then had no faultes or that learned and godly Bishops did in those dayes forbeare to excommunicate Princes rather for feare or flatterie than for any Religion or duetie marke what care S. Augustine will haue obserued howe and when discipline shoulde bee vsed If contagion of sinne haue inuaded a multitude the mercifull seueritie of correction from God himselfe is necessarie nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniciosa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigant animosos malos For then the attempt to excommunicate is frustrate and pernicious yea sacrilegious because it becommeth both impious and arrogant and more troubleth the good that be weake than correcteth the euill that be carelesse Neither was this the iudgement of S. Augustine alone but the generall wisedome of Christes church as himselfe professeth when he entereth into this question In hac velut angustia quaestionis non aliquid nouum aut insolitum dicam sed quod sanitas obseruat ecclesiae vt cum quisque fratrum id est Christianorum intus in ecclesiae societate constitutorum in aliquo tali peccato fuerit deprehensus vt anathemate dignus habeatur fiat hoc vbi periculum schismatis nullum est atque id cum ea dilectione de qua ipse alibi praecepit dicens vt inimicum non eum existimetis sed corripite vt fratrew Non enim estis ad eradicandum sed ad corrigendum In the straitnes of this question I will say nothing that is newe or vnwonted but that which the soundnes of the church obserueth that when any of our brethren I meane Christians within the Church is deprehended in any such fault that hee deserueth excommunication let that be done where there is no daunger of any schisme and with such loue as the Apostle commanded saying Esteeme him not as an enemie but rebuke him as a brother For you are not to roote vp but to amend And to this ende S. Augustine largely disputeth throughout that chapter shewing that excommunication is not to be vsed where a schisme is iustly feared It can not bee an healthful reproouing by many but when hee that is reproued hath no number to take his part But if the same disease hath possessed many the good haue nothing left for them to do but to sorrowe and mourne And therefore the same Apostle finding many defiled with fornication and vncleannes in his seconde epistle to the same Corinthians doeth not commaund them not to eate meate with such Hee that calleth excommunication a proude pernicious and sacrilegious attempt where any number is linked together that a schisme may follow what would he haue sayd to you that excommunicate Princes and whole Realmes whence not onely daungerous schismes but also cruell persecutions easily may commonly doe arise Againe the ende of excommunication which Saint Paul toucheth and the meane which he prescribeth do cease in Princes If any man obey not our sayings haue no cōpanie with him that hee may be ashamed Now the princes companie the subiects may not flie both in respect of the necessitie that al men haue to deale with the magistrate duetie that must be yeelded to the Princes person and preceptes And how should the people make their Prince ashamed whom by Gods Law they must honour and obey in all thinges and by whom they must iustly bee punished if they offer default in any thing And this the church of God wisely considering neuer vrged any Subiectes to dishonour their Princes neither did Sainct Ambrose separate Theodosius from the companie of men but hee charged him in Gods name to refraine the church and Sacramentes vntill hee appeased the wrath of God by repentaunce Hee charged not the people to disgrace or shunne their Prince but he burdened the Princes owne conscience knowing full well his religious disposition and offering his life into the Princes handes if he misliked the fact Your selues prouide for this mischiefe but as your maner is by wicked craftie dissembling not by christian and sober forbearing the thing which you should not aduenture The Pope who is farre enough off and free from al hazardes hee must first pronounce the sentence you will stande by and watch your time when you may safely without losse of life or goods put his sentence in execution till that pinch come you may sweare and stare you bee louing and obedient Subiects but then in any case you must shew your selues or else you be accursed for euer Toledo teacheth you that if there be danger of life or goods you may finely iuggle with excommunicate Princes and serue thē and honour them with al circumstances till you be strong enough to take their Crownes from their heades in spite of their heartes and then you must spare them no longer and so much the dispensation which Campion and Parsons obtayned of his holinesse when they came into this Realme importeth Phi. Woulde you that men shoulde communicate with hereticall Princes Theo. Condemne their errours but praie for their persons for so the Apostle willeth you I exhort you therefore that first of all supplications prayers and intercessions bee made for kinges and for al that are in authoritie when kinges were Infidels and Idolaters So God commaunded his people whē they were caried to Babylon Seek the prosperitie of the citie whether I haue caused you to bee caried awaie
with Imperante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone à Deo coronato magno Imperatore imperij eiuâ— anno septimo In the 7. yeare of the raigne of the great Prince crowned by God Leo the Emperor our most gracious Lord. Gregorie the thirde writeth Imperante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone Imperij eius anno vicesimo tertio In the 23. yeare of the raigne of our most religious Lord Leo the Emperor Both which letters Marianus Scotus remembreth with their dates in his accompt of times and yeares If Leo the last yeare of his life were called religious Lorde and Emperour by the Bishop of Rome how can it be true that either of the Gregories forsooke his obedience and depriued him of all his dominions in Italie long before his death Who stirred this rebellion against Leo the thirde I will not dispute The Graecians had good cause to suspect the Bishop of Rome and to thinke him to bee the verie author and contriuer of it as Zonaras doeth but that which hee did was closely doone vnder hand by conspiring priuily with other places and inciting the people by secret meanes to reuolt from the Empire As for anie open and apparant act hee was so farre from taking vppon him to depriue the Emperour by iudiciall sentence in his Consistorie that hee durst not bee knowen in this tumult to stande with the people or fauour their doinges by any publike aide or consent but seemed rather to staie them by his persuasion and to labour against that defection of theirs in the sight of others as your owne Stories doe confesse And therefore you may proue if you will by this example a rebellion of the Romanes against their Prince which the Bishoppe of Rome neither did nor durst auouch but deposition of Princes by the Popes censures which is the point that we demaunde you can not proue by this or any other president in the West partes for a thowsande yeares after Christ. Phi. You can not deny but that for defect in religion and of the churches defence the Greeke Emperors were discharged and the Empire translated to the Germanes by Pope Leo the thirde Theoph. That the Empire was deuided I doe not denie but that it was doone for defect in religion or that the Pope alone of his absolute authoritie did it both these I denie and therein though certaine Monkes and Friers of yours do slubber vppe the matter and attibute the doing thereof to the Popes sole and soueraigne power yet the truer and exacter writers of your owne side do witnesse the contrary And that first it was not doone for any defect in Religion the time when it was doone will declare The seconde Councell of Nice was celebrated in the eight yeare of Constantine and Irene as the first session of the Councell doth specifie Where not only the Legates of Adrian Bishoppe of Rome say of them-selues Nos postquam ab Apostolico Patre nostro Adriano litteras accepissemus eas ad pios nostros Imperatores pertulimus The letters which wee brought from our Apostolike Father Adrian wee deliuered to the handes of our religious Emperours Constantine and Irene But Adrian him-selfe writing to them by name saith Being lately by your godly coÌ„mandemeÌ„t aduertised of your pleasure we offred praiers thanks to almightie God for your Empire And growing to an end Haec sunt serenissimi pijssimi Imperatores These are the things most gratious godly Emperors which we haue gathered out of the Scriptures c. the which by our Apostolike relation we present to the good affection of your Maiesties with all humilitie and sinceritie beseeching your clemencie and as it were kneeling in your presence and prostrate before your feete I with my brethren make supplication request to you in the sight of God that keeping the tradition of this your most holy blessed church you wil detest the wicked rage of heretikes that you may imbrace this catholike and Apostolike church of Rome which is yours without dissolution At this Synode Constantine and Irene were acknowledged by Adrian and his Legates for Emperours of Rome and after this Synode til the diuision of the Empire there was no change of religion in Greece but the affayres of the church stoode in the same state in which they were at the time of this Synode And sure it is that Irene was wholy addicted to images for by her helpe this councel was kept images restored and yet in her raigne when she alone had the rule of all the Empire was diuided So that religion can not be pretended for the translation of the Romane Empire from the Greekes to the Germanes Againe the maine consent of your Stories is that the Senate and people of Rome did concur with the Bishop in this action their decree that he should and request that he would crowne Charles for their Emperour are expressely remeÌ„bred in the most of your writers otherwise deriuing al the power they can in these and such like cases to the Bishop of Rome Platina and Blondus saie it was done Populi Romani scito ac precibus by the decree and request of the people of Rome Nauclerus saith it was done populi Romani consensu with the consent of the people of Rome Sabellicus saith Scito rogatuque populi Romani The Pope did it by the determination and petition of the people of Rome Auentinus sayth Pontifex Senatus populusque Romanus imperâ—um transferre iure suo in Germanos Carolumque tacito Senatus consulto plebiscitoque decernunt The Bishop Senate and people of Rome conclude by a decree of the Senate and people secrete among them-selues to remoue the Romane Empire and in their owne right to deriue it vnto the Germanes and vnto Charles Sigebert shewing the time and adding the cause sayth Romani qui ab Imperatore Constantinopolitano iam diu animo disciuerant nunc accepta occasionis opportunitate quia milier excaecato Imperatore Constantino filio suo eis imperabat vno omnium consensu Carolo Regi Imperatorias laudes acclamant eumque per manus Leonis Papae coronant Caesarem Augustum appellant The Romanes which in heart were long before fallen from the Emperour of Constantinople taking this occasion and opportunitie that a woman which had pulled out the eyes of her owne sonne the Emperor had gotten the Dominion ouer theÌ„ with one generall consent proclaime king Charles for their Emperour and crowne him by the handes of Pope Leo and salute him as Caesar and Emperour of Rome Frisingensis saith of her Digna cuius diebus orbis imperium quod in manus faeminae non dignè deuenerat ad Francos transferretur She well deserued that in her dayes the Empire of the world which came into the handes of a woman by so vile meanes shoulde be translated to the Germanes Aeneas Syluius giueth an other cause that moued them no lesse than this Demum verò negligentibus Romam Graecis
not or can not procure the Popes fauour For so the Bishoppes of Rome haue vsed their excommunications against Princes and others as the examples that followe will fully declare To make an ende first with Hildebrand if either the successe that GOD gaue him in his furious attempt or the iudgements of your best and syncerest Stories neere that tyme bee woorthie to bee regarded they condemne this act of Hildebrande as vniust and vngodly Rodolf whome the Pope and the Saxons set vp against his master lost his right hand in the fielde as hee sought to get the Crowne from him and when by reason of that and other woundes hee was readie to giue vp the ghost Vrspergensis reporteth of him that looking on the stumpe of his arme and fetching a deepe sigh hee sayde to the Bishoppes that were about him beholde this is the hande wherewith I sware alleagance to my Soueraigne Lorde Henrie and nowe I leaue you see both his kingdome and this present life you that made me aspire to his throne take you heede that you lead me right I followed your aduise The same yeere that Rodolf was slaine Hildebrand by reuelation from heauen as hee sayde foretolde that that very yeere the false king should die but his coniecture of the false King which hee interpreted to bee Henry deceiued him sayth Sigebert For Henry fighting a set battell with the Saxons Rodolf the false king and many of the Nobles of Saxonie were slaine If this were a reuelation from God as Gregorie pretended then by the foretelling and perfourming of this accident GOD himselfe pronounced him the false King whom the Pope erected and maintained against Henry the fourth If it were no reuelation from aboue but a consortion with spirites from beneath then was Gregorie no such Saint as you make him that had felowshippe with Diuels and his owne master betrayed and beguyled the frantike humour of his infernall disciple Foure yeares after Hildebrande him-selfe was forsaken of his owne people and by their consent depriued of his Popedome and hee faine to flie to the barbarous Normanes for refuge and there in banishment died Romani Imperatorem Henricum recipiunt in vrbe eorum iudicio Hildebrandus Papatu abdicatur The Romanes receiue Henrie Emperour into their citie and by their iudgement Hildebrand is depriued of the Popedome Vrspergensis confirmeth the same Vnde Romani commoti manus Regidederunt Hildebrandum vero Papam vnanimeter abdicarunt whereupon the Romanes being moued that the Pope would not come in the kings presence to haue the matter hearde submitted themselues to the king and with one consent abandoned Pope Hildebrand Who lying at the point of death as Sigebert founde written of him called vnto him of the twelue Cardinals whom hee loued aboue the rest and confessed to God S. Peter and the whole church that hee had greatly sinned in the Pastorall charge which was committed vnto him and that at the instinct of the diuell he had stirred hatred hart-burning amongest men Beno the Cardinall testifieth the same though some of your Romish writers stoutly auouch the contrary This was the successe of Hildebrande and his newe made king the one vppon the losse of his hande and ende of his life remembring his oth and repenting his treason the other seeking to displace the Prince was displaced him selfe and lost his Popedome whiles he laboured to set the Prince besides his throne As touching the fact Frisingensis saith this was the first onset that euer Bishop of Rome gaue to depriue the Emperour I reade and ouerreade saieth he the gestes of the Romane kings and Emperors and I neuer find any of them before this man excommunicated by the Bishop of Rome or depriued of his kingdom Sigebert wisely and truly giueth his iudgement of this and the like interprise To speake with the leaue of all good men this only nouelty I will not say heresie was not crept into the worlde before the daies of Hildebrand that Priestes should teach the people they owe no subiection to euil kinges and that although they haue sworne fidelitie vnto him yet they must yeelde him none neither may they bee counted periures for holding against the king but rather he that obeyeth the king is excommunicated he that rebelleth against the king is absolued frō the blemish of disloyalty periurie Gerochus a great champiō of Gregories is fain to say of him The Romanes vsurp to themselues a diuine honor they wil yeeld no reason of their doinges neither can they abide that any man should say vnto them why doe you so They answere as the Poete writeth so I will and commande Let my will stand for reason Vrspergensis sayeth of the Synode at Mentz where in the presence of the Romane Legates the Bishops that rebelled with Hildebrand against the Emperour were deposed Ibi communi consensu consilio constituta est pax Dei There by common consent and counsell the peace of God was established which concludeth Gregorie to be the author of a diuelish dissention against the Emperour Phi. Wee care for none of these that speake euill of Gregories doing so long as we haue a greater number of stories to commend him Theo. And wee hauing the true reportes of these that liued in the same age with him which neither you nor the rest of your Romish faction can disproue litle regard what men that came after and were more desirous to please the Pope than to write the truth haue published in their stories You nor all the writers you haue shall euer be able to refell the assertions of Sigebert Frisingensis that Hildebrād was the first Bishoppe of Rome which attempted to depriue Princes of their Crownes and that this noueltie or rather heresie was neuer hearde of before Howe lawfull then it was which for a thowsande yeares the church of Rome neuer durst aduenture till Gregorie the seuenth first presumed to doe it leaning rather to wicked and seditious policie than to christian and confessed authoritie the simple may soone discerne or if they looke to the end they shall see the reward that is consequent to all rebellions A good instruction sayeth that auncient reporter of Henries life was giuen to the worlde that no man shoulde rise against his master The right hand of Rodolph cut off shewed a most iust punishment of periurie in that he feared not to violate his fidelitie sworne to the king his Soueraigne and as though other woundes had not beene sufficient to bring him to his death that part also was punished that by the plague the fault might bee perceiued Phi. If you stand on successe Henrie him-selfe was lifted at last out of his kingdome by his owne sonne Theo. Was it not wickednesse enough to arme the subiectes against their Prince to set the sonne to impugne the father but you must also crake of it The way that Hildebrand beganne
compasse of king Edward the thirdes statute for ayding and comforting the Queenes enemies within the realme or elsewhere Phi. You must vnderstand that wee neuer will any man to take armes but for the catholique fayth and at the commaundement of the supreme magistrate against one that was but is no Prince as being iustly deposed Theo. And you must vnderstand that the statute of Edward the third doeth neither allowe the Pope to depose the Prince nor licence the subiect to beare armes for religion against his soueraigne and therefore your warres for religion be trayterous insurrections against the Prince by the Lawes of Edward the third notwithstanding your newe found glozes that you first depose them and after resist them and pursue them with armes by the warrant of holy Churches iudgement and censure Phi. Edward the third neuer ment that to obey the Pope aboue the prince should bee treason Theo. It is not for you now to appoint his meaning His woordes are that to giue ayde or comfort to the Kings enemies and such as leuied warres against him in his realme were it the Pope the French King or whom ye will shoulde bee treason Hee had before his eyes the example of King Iohn vpon whome the Pope set the King of France with all his power for not obeying his censures from Rome he knew hee could not bee defeated of his Crowne without warre and so long as his owne subiects were trustie to him hee feared not the French nor any other that should inuade him To make himselfe therefore assured of his owne people against all men Spanish Scottish French Romish or any by whome the deede might bee doone and yet to decline the enuie of naming the Pope hee with his whole realme by their publique lawe without exception of Person or cause made it treason to giue ayde or comfort within the realme or else where to any whatsoeuer that should warre vpon the king perceiuing the generall would include the Pope or any other that hee shoulde incite against the King as well as if they were distinctly named Phi. You suppose the Prince and the people did secretly conspire against the Pope where as in those dayes they did honour him as the Soueraigne father and Pastour of their soules Theo. Howsoeuer they embraced the religion which hee professed it is euident the King and the whole realme in open Parliament made a generall consociation to repell prouisions and impetrations of ecclesiasticall dignities and offices from Rome and bound them-selues eche to other with all their might in common to withstande citations suspencions excommunications and censures comming from that Consistorie for matters decided in the Kings Courts or pertinent to the Lawes and royall liberties of this Realme and the commons did not sticke in parliament likewise to promise King Richarde the second to stand with him in all cases attempted by the Bishop of Rome against him his Crowne and his Regalitie in all points to liue and die The consociation against the procurers bringers and executours of prohibited processe from Rome was this The King the Prelates Dukes Earles Barons Nobles and other Commons Clerks and Lay people be bound by this present ordinance to aide comfort and counsel the one and the other as often as shall neede and by all the best meanes that may bee made of word and of deede to impeach such offendours and to resist their enterprises and without suffering them to inhabite abide or passe by their Seignories possessions landes iurisdictions or places and be bound to keep defend the one and the other from al damage villanie and reproofe as they should do their owne persons and for their deed and businesse and by such manner and as farreforth as such prosecutions or processe were made or attempted against them in especiall generall or in common The complainct and offer of the Commons to king Richard was this Of late diuers processes be made by our holy father the Bishop of Rome and censures of excommunication vpon certaine Bishops of England because they haue made execution of the kings commandements notwithstanding processe from the Court of Rome for the contrarie to the open disherison of the Crowne and destruction of our Soueraigne Lord the King his Law all his Realme so as the Crowne of England which hath beene so free at al times that it hath beene in subiection to no realme but immediately subiect to God and to none other in all things touching the regalitie of the same Crowne should be submitted to the Bishop of Rome and the Lawes and statutes of the realme by him defeated and destroied at his will in perpetual destruction of the king our soueraigne Lord his Crown and regalitie and of al his realme which God defend Wherefore they al the liege commons of the same realme will be with our sayd Soueraigne Lorde the King and his saide Crown and his regalitie in the cases aforesaide and in all other cases attempted against him his crowne and his regalitie in al points to liue and to die This was the auncient loue and faith of the Commons of this Land toward their Princes against the Bishop of Rome euen by name and this if you were true English or good Christian men you would rather exhort the people vnto than as you doe wish them to take weapon in hand to pull the Prince from her throne because the Bishop of Rome hath sent out his calues to disclaime her Phi. Euer sith the said S. Gregories time or thereabout all Kings in Christendome speciállie those of Spaine Fraunce Pole and England take an oth vppon the holy Euangelistes at their Coronation to keepe and defend the Catholike faith and ours of England expresly to maintaine also the priuileges and liberties of the Church and Clergie giuen by King Edward the confessour and other faithful Kings their auncestors Theo. That Kinges should take an othe to defende the Catholique fayth assist the Church of Christ wee doe not repine onely your collection is foolish if you thinke that by Catholique fayth is by and by ment your late Romish fayth or that the church can haue no priuileges nor liberties except the Pope may deale and distribute kingdomes to his liking The Princes othe in the Lawes of King Edwarde the confessour was to keepe nourish maintaine and gouerne the holy Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his Fathers and predecessours But in our dayes you will not suffer the Prince to gouerne the Church of her kingdome and the Church libertie which you seeke for is a wicked impunitie for sinne and a plaine contempt of all Christian authoritie Phi. S. Thomas of Canterburie putteth his Soueraigne Henry the seconde in memorie thereof both often in speach and expressely in an epistle written to him in these woordes Memores sitis confessionis qâ—am fecistis posuistis super altare apud
not onely their kingdomes from them but also their liues Phi. That wee meane when they will not otherwise obey Theo. By your construction meaning the world is well amended with you For where the holy Ghost commandeth Prelates Popes and all others to bee subiect to Princes you with the cunning of your keyes giue the Spirit of God the plaine â—lip and chalenge not onely right to rule them but power to depriue them at your pleasures And this haynous impietie lest the simple should distrust it you ouer-spred with a couer of the Catholike fayth as if the Popes ambition and your sedition were lately become parts of Christes doctrine Phi. In obedience to the keyes wee put no difference betweene princes and priuate persons Theo. Proue that of priuate persons which you presume touching Princes and we will agnise the rest though wee neede not Philand What shall wee proue Theo. That the Popes keyes by Gods Lawe reach vnto the goods or landes of the meanest subiect in this Realme Phi. I proued that before by the dealing of Peter with Ananias and of Paul with Elimas Theo. And I answered you before that from Gods miraculous woorking by their mouthes to your ordinarie calling and attempting the like with your handes is no good argument And therefore they might pronounce the woord and not bee murderers because the fact was Gods and not theirs you can not execute the Popes censures without actuall conspiring and rebelling against your Prince which God hath prohibited If then you may not offer the poorest crafts-man that is that wrong by the word of God what grouÌ„d of christian religion can this be that the Pope may take the sword and Scepter from the Prince and commaund you to bee his helpers and coadiutours in that wicked enterprise whom the Apostle chargeth to giue tribute custome feare and honour to superiour powers that haue the swoorde in Gods steede to rewarde good and reuenge euill Phi. May not the shepheard reclaime the sheepe if they will not bee ruled Theo. But no good sheepheard lameth or killeth his sheepe though they will not bee folded and yet similitudes bee no syllogismes I trust you will not claime that same dominion ouer Princes which owners haue ouer their sheepe and oxen Phi. No but I shewe you by this example that correction is permitted where direction is refused Theo. Pastours haue their kind of correction euen ouer Princes but such as by Gods law may stand with the Pastors vocation and tend to the Princes saluation and that exceedeth not the worde and Sacraments other correction ouer any priuate man Pastours haue none much lesse ouer Princes Phi. Yeas they may force them to repentance if they can not perswade them Theo. Princes may force their subiects by the temporall sworde which they beare bishoppes may not force their flocke with any corporall or externall violence Chrysostome largely debateth and fully concludeth this matter with vs. If any sheepe sayth he goe out of the right way leauing the plentifull pastours graze on barren and steepe-places the sheephearde somewhat exalteth his voyce to reduce the dispersed and stragling sheepe and to compell them to the flocke But if any man wander from the right pathe of the christian fayth the Pastor must vse great paynes care and patience Neque enim vis illi inferenda neque terrore ille cogendus verùm suadendus tantum vt de integro ad veritatem redeat For hee may not be forced nor constrayned with terror but only perswaded to returne againe to the truth And again A Bishop can not cure men with such authoritie as a sheepheard doeth his sheep For a sheepeheard hath his choyce to bynde his sheepe to diet them to seare them and cut them but in the other case the facilitie of the cure consisteth not in him that giueth but onely in him that taketh the medicine This that admirable teacher perceiuing sayd to the Corinthians not that wee haue any dominion ouer you vnder the name of fayth but that wee are helpers of your ioy For of all men Christian Bishoppes may least correct the faults of men by force Iudges that are without the Church when they take any transgressing the Lawes they shewe them-selues to bee endued with great authoritie and power and compell them in spite of their heartes to chaunge their manners But here in the Church wee may not offer any violence but only perswade Wee haue not so great authoritie giuen vs by the Lawes as to represse offendours and if it were lawfull for vs so to doe wee haue no vse of any such violent power for that Christ crowneth them which abstaine from sinne not of a forced but of a willing minde and purpose Hilarie teacheth the same lesson If this violence were vsed for the true fayth the Doctrine of Bishoppes woulde bee against it God needeth no forced seruice hee requireth no constrained confession I can not receiue any man but him that is willing I cannot giue eare but to him that intreateth I cannot signe any but him that gladly professeth Origen agreeth with them both See the wisedome of the holy Ghost Because that other faults are iudged by the Lawes of Princes and it seemed superfluous nowe to prohibite those thinges by Gods Lawe which are sufficiently reuenged by mans he repeateth those and none else as fit for religion of which mans Lawe sayde nothing Whereby it appeareth that the Iudges of this world doe meddle with the greatest part of Gods lawe For all the crimes which God woulde haue reuenged hee would haue them reuenged not by the Bishoppes and rulers of the Church but by the Iudges of the worlde that Paul knowing rightly calleth the Prince Gods minister and iudge of him that doeth euill Phi. Bishoppes may not offer force with their owne handes but they may command others to doe it for them Theoph. A grosse shift As though temporall Princes or Iudges did execute malefactours with their owne handes Bishoppes by vertue of their vocation can not claime the swoorde and consequently they cannot commaunde or authorize any man to take the goodes or touche the bodies of Christians or Infidels Which being a cleare conclusion it is most euident they can much lesse licence you to take the Crownes and touch the liues of Princes to whome God hath deliuered the swoorde to iudge the earth and made them seruants only to himselfe since all other soules must bee subiect to them by the tenor of his own prescription and their first erection as the Scripture witnesseth Phi. Say what you will it is religion it is no treason to defende that the Pope may lawfully depose Princes for tyrannie and heresie Theoph. It is easie for you to multiplie woordes you haue stoare of them as appeareth by your Apologie and defence of English Catholikes which consist of nothing else but the Popes power to depriue princes is
as you affirme you may but with reuerence and humilitie serue God before the Prince and that is nothing against our oth Phi. Then is not the Prince supreme Theo. Why so Phi. Your selues are superiour when you will serue whom you list Theo. As though to serue God according to his will were to serue whom we list and not whom Princes and all others ought to serue Phi. But you will be iudges when God is well serued and when not Theo. If you can excuse vs before God when you mislead vs we wil serue him as you shall appoint vs otherwise if euerie man shal answere for himselfe good reason he be master of his owne conscience in that which toucheth him so neere and no man shall excuse him for Phi. This is to make euery priuate man supreme iudge of religion Theo. The poorest wretch that is may be supreme Gouernour of his owne hart Princes rule the publike and external actions of their Countries but not the consciences of men and therefure this thwartling is to no purpose Phi. By what authoritie then in the first Parliament of the Queenes highnesse raigne was the determination decision and definition of truethes or of heresies and errors of the true worship of God and the false attributed to that Court of the states no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other general Councel to which the deciding of such things is there granted with this limitation so far as they can warrant their doings by the expresse wordes of Canonical Scriptures and no farther but to the Parliament absolutely decreeing at the same time that nothing there determined should be counted heresie errour or schisme what order decree sentence constitution or law so euer were to the contrarie the holy Scriptures themselues not excepted Theo. It is no wonder to see you quarel with the court of the Sates that are so busie with the Princes Crowne And therein as in the former your behauiour doth not change For entring with a manifest vntrueth and keeping on a course of emptie and haughtie wordes which is your glorie you tell vs at length with pride enough that our Lawes be strange and vnnatural dealings proceedings dishonourable to her MAIESTIE and the Realme against Gods expresse commaundement lymiting his constant and permanent trueth to mortall mens willes and fancies violent disorders which to all our posteritie must needes breede shame and rebuke vniust and therefore bind not in conscience repugnant to the dignitie and priuiledges of the Church against the oth of the makers and in deed no Lawes at all the makers lacking competent power authoritie and iurisdiction to proceed iudicially and authentically to heare determine and define 〈◊〉 giue sentence in any such things as be meere ecclesiasticall with a number of those bold and stately bragges hauing neither proofe of your part nor reproofe of ours but only pretending certain legalities quiddities solemnities of humane iudgements which in Gods cause be very ridiculous and in matters of faith more than superfluous For God will not haue his trueth depend either on the numbers or qualities of persons and when his word is offered we may not stand staggering till the Pope and his Cardinals please to assemble and there iudicially and authentically heare and determine what they thinke good which I winne they wil neuer against themselues Christ sent not iudges with iudicial processe but a few disciples with the sound of their voices to conuert the world the Prophetes that taught the people of God and reproued both Priests and Princes vsed no legall nor authenticall proceedings but a bare proposing the will of God to such as woulde beleeue The Kings and Princes before Christ that subuerted Idols and refourmed religion in their realmes relyed on their Princely Power and zeale for the doing of that seruice and not on the ceremoniall and sententiall acts and decrees of Priests or Prophets The Christian Princes take which you will that first receiued and after restored the faith in their Empires and kingdomes tied not them selues to the voices and suffrages of the Clergie that were in present possession of their Churches but often times remoued them without Councel or common consultation You may do well to correct S. Paul where he saith faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God and to adde faith commeth by iudiciall cognition and competent iurisdiction of such as haue legall meanes to deliberate and pronounce of God and his trueth Phi. Would you haue such disorder and confusion suffered in the Church that euery man should follow what he list Theo. I would not haue such presumption or wickednesse brought into the Church that Christ or his worde should be subiected to the wils or voices of mortall men for though the whole world pronounce against him or it God wil be true and all men shall be liars Phi. No more would wee Theo. Why then restraine you trueth to the assemblees and sentences of Popes and Prelats as though they must bee gently entreated and fayrely offered by Christ before he might attempt or shoulde expect to recouer his owne Phi. Wee would haue things done orderly Theo. Call you that order where Christ shall stand without doores till your Clergie consent t◠bring him in Phi. God is not the author of confusion but of peace Theo. It is no confusion for one familie yea for one man to serue God though all the families and men of the same realme besides will not Ioshua sayd to the whole people If it seeme euill vnto you to serue the Lorde choose you this day whome you will serue but I and myne house will serue the Lorde Elias was left alone for any that he sawe willing to serue God in Israel and yet that abated not his zeale Micheas alone opposed him-selfe against foure hundreth Prophetes with what iudiciall authoritie can you tell Ieremie assured the Priests and Prophetes of Ierusalem that God would forsake them and that hee did without any legall meanes that wee can read Amos spared neither Ieroboam the King nor Amaziah the Priest and yet he was but a simple heardman and not so much as the sonne of a Prophet Iohn Baptist had no competent iurisdiction ouer the Scribes and Pharisees that sate in Moses chayre and yet hee condemned them for a generation of vipers The Councels where Peter Steuen Paul and other of the Disciples were conuented accused and punished lacked none of your iudiciall formalities and solemnities and yet the Apostles stoutly resisted and vtterly contemned both their deliberatiue and their definitiue sentences In deede your forefathers assaulted our Sauiour him-selfe with that very question as also they did Iohn before him and the Apostles after him When the Lord was teaching in the temple the chiefe Priestes and the elders of the people came vnto him and sayde by what authoritie doest
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
the Princes or nayle vp cloth of Tissue where the Prince is not and say it is a chayre of state would you bee so foolish as to regard either of them or shoulde you not dishonour the king if you did reuerence them since they bee not such thinges as the Prince accepteth or vseth for his but other mens counterfaites Phi. I speake of that Chaire where the Prince did sit and of that Seale which the Prince did send Theo. I knowe you did and therefore I refused your similitude as vnlike the matter in question betwixt vs because images are neither places of Christes presence nor witnesses of his will as Seates and seales are vnto Princes no nor ordayned allowed or admitted by Christ to haue any credite or vse about his heauenly person or pleasure but only proposed by men of a naturall and kind affection as they thought towards Christ though cleane without warrant and so without thankes from him For hee of purpose tooke his bodily presence from the eyes of men that hee might dwell in their heartes by fayth and to teach vs to honour him not by that proportion of face which the painter would drawe but by that abundance of loue grace and mercie which hee hath extended on vs and layde in stoare for vs and which no corporall eyes can behold nor colours expresse but onely the hearing of his woorde and woorking of his spirite can lighten and perswade the heart of man to conceiue and beleeue Phi. Is it not thankes woorthie with God to haue alwayes the shape of his sonne before our eyes that wee may honour him with our hearts Theo. To honour him with your heartes and to haue him at all times in your mindes is religious and requisite but to make light of those meanes which hee hath prescribed to nourish your fayth and continue the memorie of him-selfe to seeke out others of your owne fit to please your senses not to resemble his greatnes or goodnes this is neither acceptable vnto God nor profitable for your selues Phi. To remember Christ cannot bee euill Theo. Not to remember him till you looke on a picture can not bee good Your heartes ought alwayes to bee lifted vp vnto him that whether you eate or drinke wake or sleepe or whatsoeuer you doe in woorde or deede you may doe all in the name of the Lord Iesu giuing thankes alwayes for all thinges vnto God the father in the name of our Lorde Iesus Christ. You must not tary for the execution of this precept till you see an Image But all your actions woordes and thoughtes must bee directed to the prayse of his glory and honour of his name This if you put in bre you shall neede no painted nor carued Image to bring you in mynde of his mercies The benefites and blessings within you without you and on euery side of you which GOD for Christes sake bestoweth on you are so many that you can hardly forget him vnlesse you also forget the earth that beareth you the heauen that couereth you the day that guydeth your feete the night that giueth you rest the meates that you feede on and the breath that you liue by yea your owne bodies which hee woonderfully made and soules which hee preciously bought All these thinges and all other thinges in heauen and earth you must drowne in vtter obliuion before you can inferre that Images bee needefull to put vs in mynde of our dueties to GOD. And since without Images you can and must remember the Father that created and the Holy Ghost that â—anctified you why shoulde you forget the sonne that redeemed you more than the other except you haue Images at your elbowes to kindle you appetites But this is nothing to the worshipping of Images which you should proue to bee Catholike Though there were an historicall vse in painting the shape of our Sauiour yet is it no pietie to worshippe the picture Graunt it might be vsed for remembrance for religion it may not and therefore you are all this while besides the marke Philand You denie both the hauing and woorshipping of Images to bee Catholique Wee prooue the hauing of them to bee necessarie by the fruite and profite that commeth from them namely the instruction of the ignorant in the storie of their saluation the putting vs in often remembraunce of our Sauiour and the stirring vp our deuotion with more feruencie The worshipping of them wee proue with more facilitie for if hee that honoureth the Image honour the person himselfe thereby represented as S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Chrysostome and S. Ambrose doe affirme then the worship which is done to the Image of Christ passeth vnto Christ himselfe and by consequent if it bee lawfull to adore and honour Christ it is not vnlawfull to doe the like to his Image Besides wee can prooue that adoration of Images is a tradition deliuered from the Apostles and obserued in all Churches and that the Scripture it selfe supporteth vs in this point as the learned epistle of Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome to Constantine and Irene doeth largely shewe and for the credite of the cause wee haue a general Councell eight hundreth yeres old to say as much in euery point as I affirme and more Theo. Wee maruell not to see you so deepely deceiued and strongly deluded as you bee such is the iust iudgement of God on all that admit not the loue of the trueth but haue pleasure in vnrighteousnes You rest on the vanities forgeries of such as were enclined to the same error before you not examining their proofes nor considering their reportes but presuming their euident follies to bee pregnant authorities for you whith is euer the next way to seduce others and to bee seduced your selues As touching the shew which you make of Scriptures Apostolike Tradition Churches Fathers Councels it is a childish and friuolous vaunt The fathers which you quote are abused the Apostles and their Churches belied the Scriptures depraued and wrested the Councell which you call generall reiected as wicked and diligently refuted in the same age by the West Bishoppes Of these emptie and vnluckie Maskes the more you bring the lesse you wynne Phi. Wee loose nothing so long as you lode vs onely with words Theo. If your proofes bee vaine my woordes be true Looke you therefore to the soundnesse of that which you alleage otherwise your owne burden will ouerpresse you Philand The collection which I made out of Saint Basill and others is very sure Saint Basill sayth Honos Imaginis in ipsum prototypum redit The honour doone to the Image redoundeth to the principall that is thereby represented S. Athanasius Qui Imaginem adorat in ipsa Imperatorem adorat He that reuerenceth the Image honoureth therein the Emperour And S. Chrysostome Knowest thou not that hee which hurteth the Emperours Image defaceth the Imperiall dignitie it selfe And so S. Ambrose Hee that
peeces to set vp the image of himselfe which God ouerthrew with fire froÌ„ heauen not in defence of the brasen shape but of his holy name prophaned and illuded by this Apostata Phi. This image the Apostles sawe and suffered Theo. A memoriall of their masters act not abused by the people and erected before they came to preach the Gospell to that place they might suffer but they neuer taught men to make the like nor allowed any to worshippe that Phi. Wee thinke they learned the setting vppe of this image from the Apostles Theo. Eusebius sayth they did it of an heathenish custome and not of an Apostolike instruction His wordes are And no maruell that the Heathens which were healed of our Sauiour did him this honour for so much as wee haue seene the images of his Apostles Paul and Peter and of Christ himselfe drawen in colours and kept in tables which kinde of honour antiquitie of a custome which they vsed when they were heathens was wont to yeelde to such as they counted Benefactors Sauiors Phi. By that you see the images of Christ his Apostles were expressed in colours and reserued by the auncient christians long before Eusebius Theo. Eusebius doeth not report it as a thing either openly receiued in Churches or generally vsed of all christians but as a secrete and seldome matter rising from the perswasion and affection of some which whiles they were heathen had yeelded that honour to other of their friendes fautors to whom they were most beholding For had the Apostles deliuered any such tradition or the Primatiue church of Christ vsed any publike erection of images as you suppose would the councell of Eliberis in Spaine assembled about the time of Constantine the great in plaine words haue banished them out of their churches Placuit picturas in ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus dâ— pingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the churches lest that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walles Woulde S. Augustine thinke you haue pronounced them worthy to erre which sought Christ his Apostles in pictures paintings if the people had bin taught that way to seeke him Sic omnino errare meâ—uerunt qui Christum Apostolos eius non in sanctis codicibus sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt So they deserued to erre which sought Christ and his Apostles not in the sacred Scriptures but in paynted walles Or would Epiphanius haue rent the image which he found hanging in the church by Ierusalem and pronounced such painted imagery notwithstanding it represented Christ or one of his Sainctes to be contrary to the Scriptures to the religion of Christ. His words are When I entered the church to pray I found hanging there in the enterance of the saide church a stained and a painted cloath hauing the image as it were of Christ or one of the Sainctes When I sawe this that against the authoritie of the Scriptures the image of a man was hanged vp in the church I did teare it in sunder And I pray you hereafter to command that such cloathes repugnant to our religion be not hanged in the church of Christ. It becommeth your fatherhood rather to haue this care to banish this superstition vnfit for Christes church and for the people committed to your charge By this you may see that images were not receiued much lesse adored in the church of Christ whiles these ancieÌ„t fathers liued and that to remoue them and keepe them out of the church was then adiudged a seemely care for Christian Bishoppes agreeable with the Catholike profession and publike vse of the church of Christ in those dayes Phi. Gregorie the first you know was of an other minde that images should be suffered and not defaced in the church Theo. Gregorie liued 300. yeares after the councell of Eliberis and 200. after Epiphanius in which time the painting of stories was crept into the church as an ornament for the naked walles and a meane to set before the peoples eyes the liues and labours of the Sainctes and Martyrs but that pictures or images in the church shoulde bee worshipped or adored Gregorie did in most manifest words abhorre alleadging the law of God which we do that nothing made with hands should be adored or serued Phi. Not with diuine honor Theo. You meane with no part of that honor which God requireth of vs. Phi. What else They must not haue diuine honour in whole or in part Theo. Then must they haue none at all For God requireth bodily honor no lesse than ghostly as due to him and by his law excludeth all thinges made with handes from hauing either in saying Thou shalt not bow down to them nor serue them Phi. Bowing the knee is not diuine honour but such as wee yeeld to Parents Magistrates Theo. Bowing the knee is a part of Gods honor as also holding vp the handes and lifting vp the eyes To me saith God shall euery knee bow For this cause saith Paul doe I know my knees vnto the father of our Lord Iesus Christ shewing that the bowing of our knees is an honour due to God euen as the lifting vppe of our handes and eyes belongeth likewise vnto him As long as I liue sayeth Dauid I will magnifie thee on this maner and lift vp my handes in thy name I will sayeth the Apostle that the men pray euerie where lifting vp pure handes And so for the rest Vnto thee saith Dauid do I lift vp mine eyes thou that dwellest in the heauens And againe Mine eyes are euer vnto the Lord. And so of our Sauiour when he praied S. Iohn reporteth He lift vp his eyes to heauen and saide The outward honor therefore of eyes handes kneâ—s God requireth of vs as his due though chiefly and principally the heart which he will not suffer any man to haue besides himselfe howsoeuer he allow those that present his goodnesse and glorie in blessing and iudging as Parents and Magistrates to haue some part of his corporall but in no wise of his spirituall honour Phi. And so many images haue part of his external though not of his internal honour which is the higher of the twaine and meeter for the diuine maiesty Theo. It is not in your handes to make allowance of Gods honour to whome you list and againe God himselfe hath made a plaine prohibition in this case that images shall haue no part of his externall honour The wordes are as cleare as day light thou shalt not bow downe to them Phi. Not to the images of false Gods Theo. It is but lost labor to reason with such wranglars Haue not I mainly proued that this precept expressely forbiddeth the Image of the true God to be made or bowed vnto Why then take you vp those shifts againe which be false and refuted
speed For the traditions which they mention bee either points of faith or not If they be then by the general confession of all antiquity they must be warraÌ„ted by the scriptures or els we must reiect theÌ„ If they be no parts nor consequents of the christian faith then do not those fathers weaken our assertion wheÌ„ we say that all points of faith must be proued by the scriptures this we gaine besides that the traditioÌ„s which you make the grouÌ„dwork of al your religion as they be not written so be they not necessary to saluation Phi. The faith it selfe is proued by tradition Theo. That doctrine which the Apostles deliuered by word of mouth the very same they put afterward in writing that it might be the touchstone triall of truth in times to come but this is nothing to such vnwritten verities as be different from the scriptures Teach what you wil by tradition so it accord with the written word of God we bée not against it but you may not build any point of faith vpon tradition except the scriptures confirme the same Phi. This is an error of yours which you seeke to bolster against the church The. You giue vs words we giue you proofs this which you cal an error of ours was taught receiued in the primatiue church for a catholik truth except you caÌ„ shew some points of faith which the father 's beleeued vpoÌ„ traditioÌ„ wtout scriptures the world wil suspect that you make traditioÌ„s but a cloake for your heresies Phi. S Augustin often writeth that many of the articles of our religion points of highest importance are not so much to be proued by scriptures as by traditioÌ„ The. You bely so many that it is no newes for you to bely S. Austen Where saith he so Phi. Namely auouching that in no wise we could beleeue that children in their infancy should be baptised if it were not an Apostolik tradition De gen ad lit lib. 10 cap. 23. Theo. But where doth S. Austen write this often that of many articles of religion points of highest importance Of so many high points you should haue shewed two at least Phi. Tradition caused him to beleeue that the baptized of heretiks should not be rebaptized notwithstanding S. Cryprians autority the manifold scriptures aleaged by him though they seemed neuer so pregnaÌ„t de bap lib. 2. cap. 7. Theo. Your heades bee so ful of traditions that you can not report a father without corruptions It is not true that Tradition nothing else caused him to beleeue this against CypriaÌ„s authority he was armed with scriptures reasons inuincible as himselfe both sheweth and saieth Prouoking a Donatist to conferre with him about this errour Ratione agamus diâ—inarum scripturarum authoritatibus agamus Let vs discusse this matter saith he by argumeÌ„t by the authorities of the diuine scriptures And repeating a reason that was expressed in the Princes edict forbidding rebaptizatioÌ„ he maketh the rebaptizers this offer Faciant mille Concilia Episcopi vestri huic vni sententiae respondeant ad quod volueritis consentimus vobis Let your Bishops assemble a thowsand councels answere but this one sentence we yeeld to you at your pleasures And therefore he doubted not to say of Cyprian though otherwise he did honour him very much Aliter sapiâ—t quam veritas diligentius considerata patefecit He was of an other opinion than that which the truth vpon more diligent consideration reueiled And when CypriaÌ„s epistle in this case was obiected he replied Cyprians epistles I esteeme not as canonicall but I coÌ„sider them by the canonical scriptures that which in them agreeth with the authority of the diuine scriptures I receiue with his praise that which doth not agree by his leaue I refuse The general custom of the câ—uâ—ch reuoked him from following Cypriâ—â—s authority though it were great and brought him to the deeper debating of the question but he which sayth that S. Augustine in all his conferences and writinges aleadgeth nothing against rebaptization but tradition may be rebaptized if his christianity be no more than his cunning Phi. For baptizing of infants his words be plaine It were not at al to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition Theo. I see the words wel enough but the meaning of the speaker in this place and the likenesse of the same speach in other places make me to thinke that a letter too much is crept into these wordes as through the iniuries of times and varietie of scribes many thowsand deprauations and diuerse lections were and are yet in the workes of S. Augustine and other fathers not onely by the iudgement of the learned but by the very sight of their margins Phi. A letter to much which is it Theo. You read Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esset traditio I thinke it shoulde bee Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio Esset for esse is a scope in writing soone committed but a matter of some moment in altering the sense Phi. And therefore you may not correct it without apparent proofe Theo. I may suspect it though I take not vpoÌ„ me to correct it but leaue it to the indifferent reader Phi. You must be led thereunto with very good reason Theo. First the very course of the sentence leadeth mee so to thinke Sainct Augustine in these three distunctiues Nequaquam spernenda neque vllo modo superflua deputanda nec omnino credenda The custome of our mother the Church in baptizing her infantes is neither to be despised nor anie waie to bee counted superfluous nor at all to bee beleeued did not meane to contradict him-selâ—e but by steppes to increase the credit of this custome and the third part Nec omnino credenda Not at all to be beleeued doeth rather euert all that went before than giue you any farther commendation to that Tradition For Not at all to be beleeued is as much as to be despised and counted superfluous which is repugnant to the wordes precedent But reading Esse â—or Esset the partes are consequent ech after other in better order and the last is the same that Sainct Augustine in other places doth often vtter in the very like manner and kinde of speech that here is vsed The custome of our mother the church in baptizing her infants is neither to bee despised nor by any meanes to bee accompted superfluous nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio nor at all to bee thought to be any other than an Apostolike tradition So speaking elsewhere of the very same matter he sayth Non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur It is most rightly beleeued to bee none other than a tradition of the Apostles Where wee finde not onely the same purpose but the verie same phrase and force of speech that were vsed before
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
and therfore I rest on it as on the truer though neither damnifie vs as touching this question the worth of a dodkin Phi. It were absurd to thinke that euery of the vulgar sort vnderstoode the Latine tongue Theo. Then is it more absurde when Bede saith The Latine tongue was made common to all the other foure tongues of this Land by the meditation of the Scriptures to interprete that of the vulgar sort and to refer it to the church seruice as you do Phi. You haue skanned our proofes at your pleasure but where all this while are yours that any christian Nation had their publike Seruice in a barbarous tongue I count all tongues barbarous besides the three learned toungs which are Latine Greeke and Hebrew Theo. In what toung ech Nation had their Seruice is nowe harde to bee knowen so many hundrethes yeares after and needlesse to bee discussed For when wee once founde it a rule laide downe by Sainct Paul that All thinges in the Church should be done to edification as well praying singing and thankesgiuing as preaching expounding the word which he calleth prophesieng and that no man is edified by that hee vnderstandeth not and also that the seruice in those two places and churches whereof we haue any records left was common to Priest and people and parted betweene them by verses and respondes the whole people men women and children singing the Psalmes answering to euery part of the seruice and saying Amen to the prayers that were made in all their names lastly that the catholike fathers in their seuerall times and cures taught the people should and witnes the people did vnderstande the publike prayers of the church what neede wee seeke further for barbarous Nations and tongues whereof we haue no monumenâ—â— wherein no famous or learned men wrote whose labors are come to our age or knowledge Phi. I thought you would shrinke when wee came to the quicke you loue to picke holes in other mens coates but not to shew your owne Belike it is so rotten it will not indure the handling Theo. Let the coate alone and come to the case Wee haue the flatte commaundement of God that all thinges in the Church shoulde bee doone to edification and the Apostles inferment that the simple man is not edified when hee vnderstandeth not what is said Your shiftes were that S. Paul spake not of the church prayers nor of the learned tongues Those wee haue refelled and are nowe come to the practise of Christes church which taking her direction from S. Pauls doctrine in this place framed her publike prayers in such order that the Pastour and people with ioyntlie and interchangeably blessed and praied eche with other and either for other not houlding it enough for the simple to say Amen they knewe not to what but requiring and appointing their deuoute distinct and intelligent answeres confessions blessinges and thankesgiuinges as well in the ministration of the Lordes supper as in other partes of their publike seruice The manner of their seruice where the whole church did with one heart and one voice sing praises to God and make their common supplications vnto him is the best exposition that may bee brought for the true construction of Sainct Pauls wordes and therein the auncient and Catholike church of Christ goeth expressely with vs and directly against you as appeareth by all the fathers that euer wrate of these thinges by the very sight and view of their liturgies by your owne authorities which here you abuse yea by the partes and prayers of your Masse-booke prescribed for the people to requiâ—e the priest with and yet remaining in force and dayly vse amongest you In your Apostolike constitutions written by no worse man as you say than by Clemens successour to Peter and fellow labourer in the Gospell with hâ—m this order of seruice at the Lords table was prefixed to the whole Church were they Hebrewes Greekes Romanes Barbarians or whatsoeuer if they were Christians The Bishop shall say the grace of almighty God the loue of our Lord Iesus Christ and the communion of the holy spirit be with you al. And all the people shall answere with one voice And with the spirit Again let the Bishop say Lift vp your harts all let answere We lift them vp vnto the Lord. And againe the Bishop Let vs giue thankes vnto the Lord and all shall answere It is meete and right so to doe And at the ende of that praier it followeth Et omnis populus simul dicat and let all the people with one voice say holy holy holy Lord of hostes The heauen and earth are full of thy glory blessed art thou for euer Amen And so after Let the Bishop say the peace of God be with you all Let all the people answere and with the spirite Let the Bishop admonish the people with these wordes holy thinges for holy persons And let the people answere one holy one Lord one Christ be blessed for euer to the glory of God the father Osanna to the sonne of Dauid Blessed is hee that commeth in the name of the Lord the Lord our God hath appeared vnto vs. Osanna in the hiest If in euerie Church the people were to know when and what to answere in their diuine seruice and with many full and whole sentences to confirme and requite the Bishops prayers and blessinges it is euident they were to vnderstand their owne and the Bishoppes speech which in a straunge and vnknowen tongue such as is vsed in your churches it is not possible for simple men and women to doe Phi. You impugned these constitutioÌ„s but euen now as none of the Apostles Theo. But you receiue them vrge them as Apostolike and therefore against you such proofes are pregnant And so are the Liturgies that is the church prayers which are vnder the names of Iames Basill and Chrysostom in which the like order of praying and blessing by course is appointed both for Prieste and people Let the places be seene if they be not obuious to euery mans eyes let me be rebuked of a bould vntrueth Phi. Your selues admit not those Liturgies Theo. Wee doe not thinke that either Basil or Chrysostom would take vpon them to make a new forme of church seruice if S. Iames the Apostle had doone it before them neitherâ— was the Greeke church to seeke of her seruice till their times or toâ— change it at their pleasures yet the thinges which wee alleage out of these Liturgies haue the manifest testimonies as well of Basill and Chrysostom as of other catholike Fathers both Greeke and Latine in their vnforged vndistrusted writinges Chrysostom expressing the maner of the church in his time sayth Euen in the prayers of the church a man may see the people helpe or offer much togither with the priest for those that are possessed with wicked spirits for the repeÌ„tants CoÌ„munes enim preces à sacerdote
through their rehearsall by consenting to their wordes be stirred or moued to depend on God The Priest therefore in his church seruice though he direct his heart to God yet doeth hee open his mouth for their sakes that are present that they may be both kindled and guided by the sounde and sense of his wordes to ioyne with him in offering to GOD one agreement of heart and voice which is the cause why publike prayer was ordained And euen at this day in your Masse the Priest speaketh not one worde in his owne person but in euery praier both warneth the people to pray with him and speaketh in their persons as well as in his own For example Let vs praie let vs giue thanks we beseech we offer we praise we blesse we adore which argueth that at the first institution of your owne seruice the people did were bound to marke and vnderstand the Priests wordes with answering Amen to acknowledge and confâ—â—m his prayers to be their desires and requestes vnto God though now you shut vp their eares mouthes that they can neither vnderstand you nor knowe what to answere you but only open their eyes to beholde your gestures as if it were not a place for praier but a stage for dumbe shewes to delight the senses Phi. You make certain petite reasons against vs for the seruice in the vulgar tongue but had they beene sufficient do you thinke the church of Christ would haue taken vp the contrary custome for these fifteene hundreth yeares Theo. I thinke shee would not by her church seruice I proue shee did not Phi. You proue the people vnderstood the seruice by course answered and consented to that which was sayde in the church but this doth not proue that the prayers were in any other tongue besides the Latine Greeke or Hebrewe which is our assertion Theo. This is it which I tolde you before that finding the people did vnderstand the diuine seruice in the Primatiue church and that no praiers were counted publike vnlesse they had the consent answere of the whole multitude we neede not care in what toungs this was done The Hebrew Greeke Latine Armenian Indian Persian Syrian Gothian tongâ—es are they not all alike to God Must not barbarous Nations be edified by their praiers as well as the ciuiler or learneder sort of men There is no respect of persons with God is there of tongues Phi. The three learned tongues were dedicated in our Sauiours crosse the rest were not Theo. Who set vp those titles on the crosse the Lord which suffered or Pilate which condemned him vniustly to death Philan. What though Pilate set them vp Theo. If Pilate were a wicked Pagan and his fact wickedder in proclaâ—ming the Sonne of God for a Traitour and an aspirer to the Crowne of Iurie in Hebrewe Greeke and Latine letters what reason can this be why God will not or shoulde not bee serued in any other tongue but in one of these Haue you no better examples than Caiphas to vphold the Popes Tribunall and Pilate to commend your Latine seruice Phi. Yeas we haue the church of God Theo. Then why conceale you that and bring foorth Pilates impietie to prescribe a rule in the church of God against the Apostle Phi. The tongues were good though his fact were euill Theo. And dare you say that any tongue in the world is not good Phi. Good they bee all but not so good as any of these to serue God in Theo. Recoile you back againe to that errour that God is an accepter of tongues Phi. You call it an errour Theo. So is it and that a verie grosse errour For God accepteth the zeale of the heart not the sound of the mouth and though to vs there is some difference in the perfection and pleasantnesse of the speech to God in deuotion of praier there is none He saith Origen that is Lord of all tongues heareth those that praie in any tongue For God the gouernour of the whole world is not as one that hath chosen the Greeke or some other barbarous tongue and is ignorant of the rest or neglecteth those that speake vnto him in any other tongue And since he hath made all tongues requireth not the sounde of our mouthes for himselfe but for our selues it is wilfull folly to say that prayers bee sanctified or accepted to God in one toung and not in all tongues alike Phi. Still I say the Church of God hath no such custome which Saint Paul himselfe laieth downe for a sure direction in all church matters Theo. Take you the negligent abuse of late yeares in some places for the custome of Gods church Or doe you thinke it pietie to pretende any custome of your owne against the commaundement of God Phi. Any thing which the whole Church doeth practise and obserue throughout the world to dispute thereof as though it were not to bee doone is most insolent madnesse as S. Augustine verie notably saith in his 118. epi. Theo. S. Augustin doth not say that you may prefer custom before the Scriptures or change the auncient custome of Christes church in making her praiers in a vulgar and knowen tongue with a newer order of your owne in tying the people to a strange and vnknowen language either of those by the verdict of Augustine in this verie place is that most insolent madnes which you would seeme to fasten on others And yet you miserably racke this place of Augustine For of two parts you dissemble the first that you may pull the second to your purpose and in the seconde you leaue out two conditions which your Author addeth and were the text truely cited your application is so false in the sight of all men that none but mad men would venter on so desperate an assertion as you haue doone For that the whole church of God throughout the world euer had or at this day hath her seruice in an vnknowen tongue or in Latine well you might vtter it in a dreame but neuer sober man said it being broad awaked well aduised The wordes of S. Augustine being consulted of the rites and ceremonies of the Church not of the doctrine or faith of the church are these If the authoritie of the Diuine Scripture prescribe in any of these rites and ceremonies what is to bee doone I answere there may bee no doubt but that we must doe as we reade Similiter si quid horum tota die per orbem obseruat Ecclesia The like I say if any of these rites bee obserued of the whole church thoroughout the whole world at this present day for to dispute that we should do otherwise is most insolent madnesse The scripture is first to be respected obeied if that prescribe no certainty the custom of the vniuersall church is to be folowed in those rites which are neither against the faith nor good
Primatiue church of Christ vsed and allowed all tongues as well barbarous as learned for the people to make their praiers in Phi. You say not trueth Theo. If I doe you knowe your reward You must be catholikes of the second edition when men began to fall from trueth to Apostasie For with the right and ancient faith of Christs church your Romish errours haue no fellowship Phi. And what haue yours that were neuer heard of before Luthers time Theo. Howe chaunceth then our doctrine is confirmed by the scriptures and witnessed in all the Fathers where yours is not Phi. Not ours Theo. Not yours Your praying in a tongue not vnderstood of the hearers your single and solitarie Masses where no man eateth besides the Priest your decurted communions where wanteth one halfe of Christes institution I aske not howe you proue these points to bee catholike that would trouble your braines too much but what one Father haue you for them lest you seeme to deriue your religion you know not from whom Catholike should haue al the Fathers we demaund you but one If you come short of that what hope caÌ„ you haue to recouer the rest Phi. The doubt is not of our faith but of yours you must shewe by what title you claime your church which was in our possession before you were borne Theo. The walles you had for those we striue not The faith which is the fouÌ„dation of the church you neuer had for that wee stand Phi. But who standeth with you besides your selues Theo. I haue told you the word of God and cleare consent of that church which you dare not deny to bee both ancient and catholike Phi. First then where is your antiquitie for praying in a barbarous tongue Theo. That which I haue saide might seeme sufficient you bringing against it neither reason nor authoritie but onely Pilates that put Christ to death Phi. That the people did vnderstand the prayers which were made in the church you shew some proofe but those we say were in Hebrew Greeke or Latine Marie that the primatiue church permitted any Nation to make their praiers in a barbarous tongue for that as yet I see no proofe Theo. Reuiew that which is already sayd and you shall find that not onely the people did sing the Psalmes and answere the praiers that were made in the church but also they were taught it was a point of their christian dutie so to do and that neither the Priests voice was needefull nor the prayer publike except the whole multitude did both coÌ„ceiue the meaning and confirme the blessing of their Pastour and Reader which in a strange tongue they can not therefore the conclusion is infallible that in the Primatiue church no tongue was vsed but such as the people vnderstood and in a barbarous nation of necessitie that must be a barbarous tongue Phi. But wee require some testimonie that a barbarous tongue was vsed in prayer for it may be that all the nations in the worlde vnderstood Hebrewe Greeke or Latine else why did Pilate set the title on our Sauiours crosse in those three tongues but that al nations might read it and that they could not except they vnderstood one of those three tongues which I coniecture they did Theo. A coniecture fit for the cause you haue in hand Pilate did not set vp the title for all the men women and children in the world to see or read as you suppose but for those that were gathered out of all Countries to Ierusalem at the time of his execution and that strangers as well as Iewes might knowe the cause why Christ was adiudged to dy the superscription was writteÌ„ in Hebrew Greeke and Latine without the knowledge of one of the which tongues no stranger vsed to frequent those countries least he should be forced as dombe meÌ„ are to worke with signes which in trauellers or ligers that haue any busines is meere madnes without some interpreter Had all men vnderstood one of those three toungs as you imagine what needed the holy Ghost to haue bestowed any moe tongues on the Apostles when they were sent to preach to al nations but the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine for the whole worlde as you say spake and vnderstood those three You may do well to controle the holy Ghost and with your monsterous and false surmise to say the gift of moe tongues than these three was not needefull And where is then the diuision of toungs which God inflicted on the Sonnes of men if the whole earth had recouered her selfe to be of three tongues Or how could any Nation bee barbarous if ech coulde naturally speake some one of the learned tongues Yea why might not the ofspring of Adam haue gotten from three tongues to one with more easie and quicker speede than from an infinite variety of tongues to three and so frustrate the iudgement and wisedome of God in confounding their speech Philand I doe not auouch it for a certaintie Theophil Looke better vnto it and you will reiect it not onely for an impossibilitie but euen for an impiety And yet were you so absurdly and wickedly bent you hurt not our assertion For wee can proue that the primatiue church allowed and vsed praiers by precise â—ermes in barbarous tongues Origen saieth The Grecians name God in the Greeke tongue the Romanes in the Latine singulâ—item natiua vernacula lingua Deum precantur laudibus pro se quisque extollâ—t and euery Nation in their natiue and mother tongue make their praiers to God and yeeld him his due praises S. Hierom describing the solemne funerall of Paula that died at Bethleem in Iurie saith Hebraeo Graeco Latino Syróque sermone psalmi in ordine personabant non solum triduo donec sâ—bter Ecclesiam iuxta specum Domini conderetur sed per omnem hebdomadam The Psalmes were sung by order in the Hebrewe Greeke Latine and Syrian tongue not onely those three dayes til shee was laid in earth within the church and neere to the sepulchre of our Sauior but that whole weeke And least you should thinke this order of singing in diuerse tongues was vsed but once commending the very same place for the great concourse of Nations farre and neere thither resorting and there leading their liues he maketh Paula then aliue giue this report to Marcella Quicunque in Gallia fuerit primus huc properat diuisus ab orbe nostro Britannus si in religione processerit dimisso sole occiduo quaerit locum fama tantum Scripturarum relatione notum Quid referamus Armenios quid Persas quid Indiae quid Aethiopum populos ipsamque iuxta Aegyptum fertilem Monachorum Pontum Cappadociam Syriam Caelen Mesopotamiam cunctáque orientis examina Vox quidem dissona sed vna religio tot pene Psallentium Chori quot Gentium diuersitates Whosoeuer is the chiefest in Fraunce hither he hasteneth The Britane
steps Phil. Cyprian saith there must be water as well as wine Theo. But whē he alleadgeth Christes example that the cup must be mingled he meaneth the mixture of wine not of water And so he expoundeth himself very often in that epistle Calix qui inebriat vtique vino mixtus est the cup which maketh drunke no doubt is mixed with wine And againe A Domino admoniti instructi sumus vt calicem Dominicum vino mixtum secundum quod Dominus obtulit offeramus We be taught and instructed by the Lord that we should offer the Lords cup mingled with wine according as the Lord did offer it So that the commistion which Cyprian requireth by vertue of Christs institution is not of water which at that present was not in question but of wine which by the olde Testament he prooueth was foretolde of Christ that he should offer and by the new he sheweth that he did offer in the cup which he deliuered to the twelue Apostles You therefore abuse Cyprians words when you bring them to prooue that Christ had water as wel as wine and that if we leaue out either we follow not Christs example for he namely vrgeth Christs action for the vse of wine and that if we omit we violate the Lords institution Philan. Cyprians reason will declare that he speaketh of both and his words to that ende are so manifest that we maruel you wil stand in it Thus he saith In sanstificando calice Domini offerri aqua sola non potest quomodo nec vinum solum potest Nam si vinum tantum quis offerat sanguis Christi incipit esse sine nobis si verò aqua sit sola plebs incipit esse sine Christo. In sanctifying our Lordes chalice water alone may not bee offered as also not wine alone For if a man offer wine alone the bloode of Christ beginneth to bee there without vs. And if water alone be offered the people beginne to bee in the cup with-out Christ. And therefore he resolueth Quando in calice vino aqua miscetur Christo populus adunatur When water is mixed in the chalice with wine then the people is vnited vnto Christ. Theo. Sir we neuer denied that Cyprian spake of water in one part of the Sacrament and to continue the vse thereof alluded to the mysticall interpretation of water which Saint Iohn maketh in his Reuelation when he saith The waters which thou sawest where the whoore of Babylon sitteth are peoples multitudes Nations and tongues but it is one thing to alledge Christs institution for the necessitie of hauing water in the sacred cup which Cyprian did not and an other thing to play with figures and allegories as Cyprian doth when he sheweth what water may signifie That Christ mixed water with wine at his last Supper no Scripture reporteth and the Gospell kéeping silence no man can iustly prooue it And therefore Cyprian neyther did nor could auouch any such thing but that water was and might be vsed in the Church of GOD and in Saint Iohns vision of the whoore of Babylon was parabolically taken for nations and countries this we can graunt both to you and to Cyprian without any preiudice And yet I must let you vnderstand that neither this kind of prouing by parables is alwais sound nor this collection that without water the people is not figured in the Lords cup is any néedful point of christian religiō For Cyprian himselfe elsewhere sheweth that wine alone in the Lords cup though no water be added resembleth the people vnited to Christ far better than water that resemblance is alledged subscribed vnto by S. Augustine the other is not When the Lord called his body bread that is made of the kneading together of many corns he declareth the vnion of our people whose burden he bare And when he called his blood wine which is pressed out of many kernels and clusters of grapes and gathered into one liquor he signifieth also our flocke coupled with the permixtion of a multitude conioined And this way he saith the Lords sacrifices declare the vnitie of Christians knit togither with firme inseparable charitie whose words S. Austen repeateth and commendeth writing against the Donatists And vseth the very same in a Sermon of his owne concerning this matter As to make the visible kinde of bread many cornes are kneaded into one lump of dough so also of the wine brethren call to your memories how it is made one Many grapes hang in the cluster but their iuice runneth into one liquor Wherupon he concludeth that the Lord hath consecrated at his table the mysterie of our peace and vnitie This similitude is grounded on the nature of the elements and signification of the Sacraments the other is not and that the faithfull be not ioined to Christ their head in this mysterie but by mingling water with wine this doctrine is neither safe nor true by the confession of either side yours ours especially yours for you exclude the people not only from the water but also from the wine and yet by the bread alone you suppose them to be coupled and vnited to Christ their head and we for our side confesse that both parts alike doe knit vs vnto Christ as well the bread as the cup and that not the mixing or tempering of either element but the due receiuing of both doth incorporate vs into Christ. Phil. Then you refuse this saying of Cyprians as vntrue Theo. We can giue Cyprian leaue to dally with allegories and to allude to the mingling of water wine then vsed in the Church but we can not giue you leaue to deriue it from Christs institution and to make it an essentiall part of the Sacrament And yet you crosse Cyprians authoritie more than we doe For where the mixing of water with wine is required by Cyprian that the people and not the Priests onely might be ioined with Christ in that part of the mysterie you retain the action and frustrate the signification by taking both wine and water from the people of God and therby shew that your mixture is wholy superfluous as not directed to that end which Cyprian speaketh of but rather to the contrary And of all others you may least indure Cyprians comparison for he saith that after cōsecration as Christ is in the wine so the people is in the water and if you transubstantiate the water into the people as you do the wine into Christ and bring them within the compasse of your chalice you had néede of a chalice as wide as the church or else you shall shrewdly throng them together Your doctrine therefore reiecteth the meaning and saying of Cyprian more than ours and with more pride we hauing the gospel for our discharge when we say that Christ commanded no mixture in his last Supper your owne Schooles with one consent to affirme with vs
peoples heartes and voyces Philand Those be your shyftes Theoph. Goe to you shifters is it not enough for you to beguile the simple with emptie soundes shewes and names but you will resist a manifest trueth when you are sure to haue it prooued to your faces Cyprian in his 63. epistle meddleth not with Malachies wordes but if you woulde in deede learne what hee thought or wrate of that prophesie and what hee counted to bee the Sacrifice that Malachie foretolde turne to his instructions giuen to Quirinus against the Iewest he first booke and 16. chapter where he proueth that the old sacrifice should bee abolished and a newe succeede and there you shal find him expound it to bee Sacrificium laudis iustitiae the Sacrifice of praise and righteousnes and that by no worse mans authoritie than Dauids Iustinus I grant alleadgeth the wordes and saith God in that speech doth witnes that all the sacrifices which Christ Iesus appointed to be done in his name at the Eucharist of bread and wine are acceptable to him But what Sacrifices they were which Christ deliuered and prescribed in the Eucharist for his to do the wordes of Iustinus that presently follow do perfectly open Preces quidem gratiarū actiones bonorum perfectas solas esse Deo gratas hostias ego quoque concedo Haec enim sola facienda acceperunt Christiani in aridi humidique sui cibi commemoratione in quo mortis quam per se perpessus◠est Deus Dei filius memoria re colitur That the prayers and thankes of the good are the only perfect sacrifices and pleasant to God I confesse For these onely sacrifices haue the christians receiued to be done in the celebration of that their Eucharistical food liquor in which the memory of the death of the son of God who himselfe was God is renewed You should haue spared the very quoting of this place by mine aduise for if all the Preachers in England would haue laide their heades together in wordes to crosse your actuall corporall sacryficing the flesh of Christ they could not haue done it in quicker and smarter speech Ireneus maketh euen as much for you as Iustinus did for he not onely subuerteth your reall sacrificing of Christ when hee teacheth that the church offereth the creatures of bread and wine in token of her thankefulnesse vnto God but the very wordes of Malachie he expoundeth by S. Iohns authority for the praiers of the Sainctes Benè ait in omni loco incensum offertur nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohan. in Apocalypsi orationes ait esse Sanctorum Et ideo nos quoque offerre vult munus ad altare frequenter sine intermissione Est ergo altare in coelis Illuc enim preces nostrae oblationes nostrae diriguntur Well saith God by Malachie In euery place incense is offered to my name and a pure sacrifice Now incense Iohn in his Apocalypse calleth the prayers of the Sainctes And therefore God will haue vs offer a gift at his altar cōtinually without intermission The altar is in heauen Thither are our praiers and oblations directed Phi. Yet S. Irenens applyeth the wordes of Malachie to the Eucharist Theo. He doth but that sacrifice he saith is the offering vnto God the first fruits of his creatures for a thankesgiuing and with that restriction hee limiteth the word offerimus which he often vseth Offerre igitur oportet Deo primitias eius creaturae Offerimus einon quasi indigenti sed gratias agentes donationi eius sanctificantes creaturam Wee must offer to God but the first fruites of his creatures Wee offer to him not that he wanteth but giuing him thankes for his bountifulnesse and sanctifieng the creature Here is a sacrifice of thanksgiuing for his mercies not Christ but the creatures of bread and wine offered vnto God with prayer and other christian duties which hee nameth as cleane thoughtes faith without hypocrisie firme hope feruent dilection these are the sacrifices of the new Testament of the Lords table not proper to the priest but common to the people nor finished with the hāds but perfourmed with the spirite of man which is the true seruice of the second couenant Phi. You turne and winde the Scriptures as you please but sure the Prophet Malachie directly toucheth our Sacrifice Theo. You dreame so earnestly of it that all the Fathers in Christes church can not pull you from it What Cyprian Iustine and Ireneus write of this prophesie you do or may vnderstand by that which is saide if the number bee too smal you may haue moe to assure you that the Prophet neuer thought of your reall and corporall sacrificing of Christes fleshe to God the Father by the Priestes fingers Tertullian alleadging the very wordes Et in omni loco offerentur munda Sacrificia nomini meo In euery place shall there bee brought cleane Sacrifices vnto my name addeth Indubitatè quod in omni terra exire habebat praedicatio Apostolorum Vndoubtedly the Prophet Malachie meaneth that the preaching of the Apostles was to bee spredde ouer all the earth Against Marcion hee sayeth Et in omni loco Sacrificium nomine meo offeretur sacrificium mundum scilicet simplex oratio de conscientia pura In euerie place shall there bee offered in my name a sacrifice and that a cleane sacrifice to witte sincere praier from a pure conscience So Eusebius Where Malachie doeth say that incense and sacrifice are offered to God in euerie place what else meaneth hee but that it is done in euery Countrie and in all Nations which in deede were to offer to the most high God the incense of prayer and sacrifice which is called cleane no longer by blood but by godly workes Nowe what those workes were Cyrill will teach you Wee vse sacrifices but of the spirite and minde For wee haue a precept that leauing the grosse seruice of the Iewes wee shoulde yeelde a subtile fine and spirituall sacrifice And therefore wee offer vnto God for a sweete smell all sortes of vertues faith hope charitie iustice continence obedience mildnesse perpetuall prayses and other such vertues So Hierom. Incense is offered to the name of the Lord in euerie place and a cleane sacrifice not in the oblations of the olde Testament but in the holynesse of Euangelicall puritie of which incense wee reade in other places as when Dauid sayeth Let my praier bee directed as incense in thy sight and the lifting vppe of mine handes as an Euening sacrifice So Augustine Heare yee Donatistes the Lorde saying thus by his Prophet In euerie place shall incense bee yeelded to my name and a pure sacrifice With this sacrifice of your brethren which God most respecteth you shew your selues by your cauilling to bee grieued and if at any time you heare the name of the Lord to bee praysed from East to West which
paines and to make a readier dispatch if you will be ruled by me Phi. What is it Theo. Bring vs but one father for 800. yeares that euer taught your transsubstantiation and wee will count it catholike Phi. What talke you of one You shall haue one hundreth of as auncient and catholike writers as anie were in the Church of christ for a thousand yeares after his ascending to heauen Theo. You were best take it when you be wel offered One faire and sufficient authority shall please vs better than a cartloade of names abused and places peruerted Phi. It is as easie for vs to bring them by whole hundreds A man that once supplied the same roome which you doe nowe hath produced two hundreth of them in his Diacosion Martyrion Vernierus an other of our side hath alledged 318. seuerall and sundrie writers as manie as there were Bishops in the great Councell of Nice Garetius a man of singular reading hath gathered foure hundred fourtie fiue good and substantiall Authors euen from Melchizedech to this present age besides Poets women Councels Miracles visions Iewes Ethnicks and heretiks which all beare witnes to our doctrine And if you haue not seene the bookes I will lend you them for your instruction I could be content I tell you to be at anie cost to win a soul and wish to you no worse than to my selfe Theo. Your kindnes without cause is but seruice without thankes I haue seene your Diacosion Martyrion your great vniuersal Councell militant touching the truth of the most diuine sacrament of the Eucharist assembled by Vernierus your nine orders Rancks of I know not whom digested by Garetius besides the labours trauels of many others your adherents And reading them all I find not one father that euer dreampt of your material corporal conuersion of the elements into christ for 800. yeres vpward Hyperbolical speaches I find in Chrysostom some hard similitudes in damascene others but a manifest testimonie for the real carnal presence which you defend I find none and as for the fathers which be any thing ancient they go clearely and exactly with vs in this question Phi. With you By this a man may perceiue you neuer saw them or at lest neuer read them My selfe can alleage you 500. places wherof you shall not answere one but by meere shifts iestes of tropes and figures and such like mockeries Theo. It were paynes better bestowed for you to vnderstand what you alleage than to alleage that which you vnderstand not You may wrest and misuse 500. places of the fathers as your friends before you haue done in this point your selues in other questioÌ„s haue shewed the like actiuitie But that the substance of the bread vanished by consecratioÌ„ the substaÌ„ce of Christs body really succeedeth vnder the same dimensions accidents of bread wine entereth our mouthes locally coÌ„prised within those formes for this you shal neuer shew vs any one father greeke or latin within the compas of 800. yeres after Christ. Phi. A thousand authorities can we bring you with a wette finger that shall clearly conuince the presence of Christ in the sacrament Theo. And not one of them shal conclude that maner of presence which you maintain Phi. As for the maner of his being there it forceth not much so you grant him to be really and verily present Theo. His presence there can do you litle good except the manner of his presence be likewise expressed and auouched by the places which you would bring Phi. If he be present ergo the substance of his flesh is present and that must needs be corporally locally coÌ„prised in the formes of bread wine Theo. What father saith so besides your selues Phi. They al say he is preseÌ„t Theo. And so do we Phi. In words you say it but when you come to the push you deny the truth and effect of his presence Theo. Wee do not looke you should vnderstand vs that vnderstand not your selues You haue framed of your own heades a certaine maner of Christes presence in the supper without the direction or consent of any learned or auncient father and that of al others the grossest and absurdest that could be deuised and nowe you no sooner heare the name of Christes body or blood in the mysteries but you straightway grow to a speciall conceite that your reall and carnall presence is there confirmed and confessed And this made your builders of Babel as they posted through the Fathers to note euery place and person that did but mention The body of Christ as a witnes for Transubstantiation where if it woulde haue pleased you and your fellowes to haue weighed the rules and cautions of the fathers together with their speaches and exhortatioÌ„s not to haue hunted after your owne fansies in their phrases but marked remeÌ„bred their instructioÌ„s how they would be takeÌ„ vnderstood wheÌ„ they speak of the christiaÌ„ mysteries you should haue saued a great deale of labor which now you should haue saued a great deale of labour which nowe you haue spent to no purpose gained securitie from this difficultie which hath sâ—tted your schooles and churches with a most pernicious and yet a monsterous error Phi. And wee say that you bee so blinded with presumption and rebellion against the Church of God that you will not yeelde to all the fathers that euer wrate of this matter since Christes time but because they nowe and then speake of signes and figures you turne all to tropes and metaphores as if neither Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles or their successors the Godly teachers and Pastours of his church had euer spoken properly or plainely of this sacrament but al in clouds and riddles such as neither Priest nor people that should come after could possibly conceiue and none to this day had vnderstood till you came lately to trouble the world with heresie and inâ—quitie Theo. Take your pleasures your tongues bee your owne who can tame them if you will not containe them You haue learned of your fathers to whet them like swordes and to smite with them and to shoote foorth your arrowes euen bitter wordes but the mouth that rageth with lies slanders as the wise man forwarneth destroyeth the soule and in the meane time your errors are nothing diminished or excused by your taunts or teeth-gawles As touching the matter it selfe Sacraments of their owne nature and by their first and chiefe erection are visible signes of inuisible graces so that if they be no signes they bee no sacraments and though the signes must bee diligently distinguished from the thinges yet for good causes in teaching and writing do the signes beare the names of the things them selues whose signes they are in so much that no father speaking or writing of the bread or wyne after they be once made sacraments giueth them any other
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to
Rom. 15. How kinges must serue the Lord and Christ his sonne Psalm 2. Aug. contra literas Petilia lib. 2. cap. 92. Idem contra Cresconium lib. ◠cap. 51. The church shall suck the brestes of kinges The milke of princes is not temporall wealth August epi. 50. Idem contra 2. Gaudenij epist. lib. 2. cap. 11. Idem contrae Epist. Parmen lib. 1. cap. 7. The Prince charged to punish false and corrupt religion * Read on the place contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. cap. 7. Compell them to come in spoken to the magistrates Luke 14. Aug. contra 2. Gaudent Epist. lib. 2. cap. 17. Mat. 21. 1. Corinth 10. 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Tit. 1. Mat. 20. 2. Pet. 5. Luke 14. August Ep. 50. Idem contra 2. Gaundentij epist. lib. 2. cap. 17. Idem Epist. 48. Idem Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 48. The Princes charge as the scriptures do expresse it Al these things must bee done in euery christiā cōmō wealth and who shall do them but the Prince August contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Christian Princes from the beginning haue delt in causes ecclesiasticall Socrat. in prooemio lib. 5. Alciatus incodicem rubric de sacrosanct ecclesijs tomo 3. pag. 198. Constantines example Euseb. hist. lib. 10. cap. 5. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 10. cap. 34. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 1. cap. 37. Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 13. Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 22. Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Euseb. de vita Constan. lib. 4. cap. 42. Athanas. Apol. 2. cap. Quum multas Athanasius and his side appeale from the councel to the prince Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 34. The Councell of Tyrus commanded to come before the Prince giue account of their doings What Constantine did in Athanasius his cause Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. The restoring of Arius Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 25. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Constantine threatneth Athanasius for not receiuing Arius Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 37. 31. Ibidem lib. 1. cap. 38. The Prince cōmaundeth the Patriarke to receiue Arius to the cōmunion Codi lib. 1. tit 1.6.2.3 Tit. 5.7.9.11 Nouel constitut 57.37 42.123 Nouel constit 123.131 Nouel constit 5. 131.3.67.79 Nouel constit 123.133 Nouel const 6. 123. Nouel constitutione 123. Nouel constit 123. The prince receaueth information cōmaundeth correction Nouell constitutione 6. The doctrine discipline of the church must be the Princes cheefest care The Bishops Patriarks of euerie diocesse cōmaūded and threatned Nouel Constitut 5. Nouel Constitut 133. The Prince soueraigne ouer all men and that in things cōcerning God which must be preserued from corruption by the prelates but most of all by the Prince The things were then in the Princes charge which the Pope now tieth to spiritual courtes Careli praefa in leges Franciae The preface of Charles to his lawes directing commissioners to reforme the Church in his name and by vertue of his authoritie Legū Franciae li. 1. Cap. 1.2.3 Cap. 23. Chap. 49.25 Cap. 11. Cap. 57.45 Cap. 13. Cap. 6. Cap. 20. Cap. 41. Cap. 15. Cap. 160. Chap. 76. Cap. 76. Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem Cap. 66. Cap. 132. Cap. 147. Cap. 73. Cap. 155. Cap. 75. Cap. 139. Cap. 158. Cap. 74. Cap. 78. Cap. 103. Cap. 129. Cap. 128. Cap. 130. Cap. 131. Cap. 141. Cap. 136. Cap. 86. Cap. 67. Cap. 79. Cap. 81. Cap. 110. Cap. 71. Cap. 62. Cap. 163. Cap. 116. The Prince visiteth and cōmaundeth for ecclesiastical rules and discipline Cap. 104. The Prince promiseth by the aduise of his faithful determinatiō for such ecclesiasticall matters as were not expressed in his chapters Charles by his lawes rectified al ecclesiasticall things and causes If any wanted he promised at his leisure to supply that defect His sonne his nephew followed his steps and executed his lawes Legion franciae lib. 2. Cap. 1. Cap. 2. Cap. 3. The cheefe of this ministerie consisteth in the princes person to whom the Bishops are coadiutors Cap. 12. Cap. 11. The Prince willeth all without exception to obserue his commaundements in all things as well ecclesiastical as temporal Cap. 26. Bishops to be reformed by the Kings visitours Cap. 27. The kings decrees touching all things and causes to be obserued of all men Chap. 28. The first part of the Princes commission concerned religion and ecclesiastical order Legū Franciae Cap. 12. Cap. 26. Cap. 28. Cap. 11. What lacketh this of gouerning al men in al matters both ecclesiasticall and ciuil Supreme is not superiour to Christ but not subiect to the Pope The superlatiue includeth not God because God with man is not cōpared 1. Pet. 2. Tit. 3. Rom. 1. Cap. 13. Cap. The saints on earth are subiect to the Princes sword the graces of God are not The Church cōfessed princes to be subiect to none but to God Tertul. ad Scapulam Idem in Apologetico Contra Parmenian lib. 3. Ad Populū antioch homil 2. Superiour to al is subiect to none Ad popu Ant. homil 2. Nouel const 133. De obitu Theodosij Greg. epist. li. 3. ca. 100. cap. 103. The word supreme was added to set Princes at libertie from the Pope and that is it that so much offēdeth the Iesuites They must proue Princes to be subiect to the Pope we need not proue them to be free The Bishops of Rome for 300. yeres endured heathē Princes Martin Polon in Iulio Liberio Platina in Bonifacio I. Martin Polon in Syluer Vigil Martino I. Caus. 2. quaest 7. Cap. Nossi The popes submission to the Emperour Ibidem Cap. Perrus A lewd elusiō of Gratian. The Prince superior to the Pope euē in causes ecclesiastical The quarel between Donatus Cecilian Lib. 10. Cap. 5. Lib. 1. contra Parmenianum epist. 162.166 alibi This quarell was forthings causes spiritual Constantine superior to Meltiades Euseb. lib. 10. Cap. 5. The Pope with others were authorized by the Prince to heare this cause August epist. 162. Epist. 166. Constantine himself would not at first fit iudge in the cause for want of skill August epist. 166. Cellatio 3. dici cum Donatistis The Prince receiued an appeale from the Pope Euseb. li. 10. Cap. 5. August epist. 166. And gaue thē other Iudges after the Pope August epist. 166. The Prince sate himselfe in iudgement both after the Pope and after the Councel Idem epist. 162. Idem contra Crescon lib. 3 Cap. 17. August epist. 166. The Prince made a penal law to confirme his finall decision Ibidem The Prince in these foure facts superior to the Pope The Prince willeth Flauianus to keepe his Church after foure Popes had repelled him for no Bishop Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. Sozom. lib. 8. cap. 28. Arcadius denied the Pope a Councel punished the Bishops that kept his communion Niceph. lib. 13. cap. 30. Ex libro pontif in vita Bonifacij Epist. Bonifacij ad Honorium Augustum Rescript Honor. ad Bonifac. tom
thinges though happily the Prophetes did aduise them and persuade them To be directed and aduised by others doth not hinder the Princes authoritie The high Priest among the Iewes had his commission from Gods owne mouth the Pope hath not Deut. 17. The best christian Princes haue followed the steppes of the kings of Iudah God himselfe speaketh and commandeth by the hearts and lawes of Princes August de ciui Dei li. 5. cap. 24. Idem Epi. 166. Ibidem Aug. Epist. 50. Religion the chiefest care that Princes ought to haue Cod. lib. 1. tit 17 de veter iure enucleando § Deo authore Authen constit 6. Codic Theodos. lib. 16. tit 4. de religione § Ea quae Legum nouell Theodos. tit 2. de Iudeis Samaritanis § Inter caeteras Valentinian himselfe was content at length to coÌ„maund for truth Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 8. Codic lib. 1. tit 6. NesacruÌ„ Baptisma iteratur Euagrius lib. 3. cap. 14. The right faith is the only strength of an earthly kingdom Idem lib. 5. cap. 4. Niceph. dedicatio operis In Greece the Emperours kept this power 1300. yeres after Christ. Ibidem paulo ante Diligent care of Gods causes the surest proppe of a Princes seat A king of this land making lawes for religion a 1000 yeres after Christ. Lege 1. Lege 6. Lege 7. Lege 14 15. Lege 16. Lege 19 21. Lege 22. Lege 26. â—iter politica iâ—ra erusilem Lege 4 6. The weakest of these places proue that Princes meddle with ecclesiasticall causes which they would seeme to â—ray them from by Osiâ—s wordes And consequently their sword stretcheth vnto spiritual things as well as vnto temporal When papists be posed with these places and cannot auoide them they slip to an other question and cauill about the direction of Princes vnto trueth Princes may commaund for all points of trueth as well as for one He that may commaund for trueth may iustly punish for trueth As lawfull for the Prince to punish Idolaters and heretikes as theeues and murderers Both sides graunt that Princes must punish as well spirituall as temporall offences He that wil punish must first prohibit If Princes may punish prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion ergo they may commaund establish that which is good in the same causes August epist. 50. Idem contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Papists grant princes may punish for religion but not coÌ„maund yet punishing is a very forcible kind of coÌ„maunding Nothing clearer than that Princes may commaund for matters of religion August epist. 166. Ibidem The word coÌ„maunding which they most auoide is most vsual in the sacred scriptures auncient lawes of Christian Princes Epist. 66. * Nouel constitut 3.5.6.16.37.42.57.58.59.67.77.79.83.109.117.131.132.133.141.144.146 If princes at all may meddle with matters of religion they must needes commaund Or if the Iesuites will not graunt so much let them looke to the places that went before and presently follow They would none of this if they could chose because they hold that Bishops in these cases must command Princes What Osius ment by saying CoÌ„mandâ— vs not in this kinde Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 3. cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 4. cap. 42. Socra lib. 1. ca. 4. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Idem lib. 1. cap. 38. Theodoret. li. 4. cap. 8. Idem lib. 4. cap. 7. 1. Tim. 3. Cod. lib. 1. tit 6. Ne sanct bapt iâ—eretur Cod. lib. 1. tit 1. Ibidem § nullus Socrat. lib. 5. ca. 7. Gregor epist. li. 4. ca. 78. LeguÌ„ Franciae lib. 1. ca. 76. Ibidem cap. 71. Chalced. Concil actio epist. Theodosii Valentiniani ad Dioscorum The Prince appointeth what Bishops shal be present at the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris epist. ad eund◠§ Diosco reuerendo The Prince maketh the president of the Councel The Prince limiteth who shall haue voyces in the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris commonitorium ad Elpidum Ibidem oratio Martiani ad Synodum Ibidem epist. Euseb. ad Imperator Nouel Constit. 6. § Maxima quidem These commaundemeÌ„ts of Iustinian bound the Bishop of Rome no lesse than other Bishops Ibidem § hanc non pecunijs Ibidem § â— quis auteâ— talis Ibidem § illud etiam definimus Ibidem § sed neque effusas The prince coÌ„maundeth the whole clergie Patriarks Metropolitanes Bishops and the rest whatsoeuer to obserue his ecclesiastical lawes Nouel constit 16. ad finem Constit. 57. Constit. 123. § exigatur autem prius These lawes exteÌ„ded to all prouinces patriarkes Ibidem § prae omnibus autem illud Ibidem § interdicimus autem Ibidem § quis a vero Synodes called for ecclesiastical causes were tied to the Lawes imperiall Ibidem C. ad haec iubemus All Bishops commanded by the Prince Ibidem § Insuper interdicimus Eadem constit § omnibus vero epis Vniust excoÌ„munication punished by the Princes lawes Eadem constit § praeterea si qui. The Courts and consistories of all Bishops Archbishops patriarks limited as well to the Princes lawes as to the Canons No appeal from the Patriark Eadem constit § Clericos auteÌ„ Euagrius lib. 4. cap. 9. Idem li. 5. ca. 6. Idem lib. 5. ca. 5. Cod. lib. 1. tit 3. de epist. cleri C. si quenquam Cod. lib. 1. tit 2. de sacrosactis ecclesiis C. decernimus Osius words if they were not diuersly answered by vs may not controle the perpetuall practise of Christs Church The cunning of the papists in this point is either to belie our doctrine or to slip themselues froÌ„ the question The summe effect of the former allegations authorities for the Princes power Or if they doe not disproue them Apolog. cap. 1. The Iesuites in their Apologie for all their vaunts neuer come neere the princes power which we defend The Princes authoritie as we defend it The Princes supremacie as we maintaine it Neither of these points touched in the Apolog. The absurdities which the Iesuites muster against the Princes supremacie Apolog. cap. 4. sect 21. 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. Sect. 23. August contra Gaudentij epist. lib. 2. Cap. 25. Sect. 24. Sect. 25. Their absurdities be grounded on their owne dreames not on our doctrine To this that Princes may coÌ„maund for trueth no absurdity can be consequent WheÌ„ Princes coÌ„maund that which is good it is Christ no man els that commaundeth by their mouthes Epist. 166. Ibidem Ibidem Their absurdities must be inferred vppon our assertion if they bring them against vs. May not Christ appoint as well as the Pope what Princes shall commaund To coÌ„maund that which God commaundeth is pietie and no absurditie Supreme as we professe it hath no absurditie consequent to it This misconstering of supreme is the ground of all their absurdities Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 21. Mat. 28. Princes giue no commissioÌ„ but a permission and free libertie without let
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
Romanes or Grecians * Why these two words were not traÌ„slated into any tongue See Hieron Maâ—cel epist. 137. Alleluia vsed in this land by the Saxons that could no Latine Grego moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 8. The Britans that could speake no Latine sung the praises of god in what touÌ„g then if not in their own Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. Hierom misconstered by the Iesuites Hieron in 1. Epist. 17 ad Marcel Hierom speaketh of the plough men in Bethleem where Christ was borne It is easie to alleage nine skore fathers in any matter to no purpose God grant it be but ignorance in the Iesuits to cite fathers in this sort The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Latine tongue was common not to all but to such as could meditate the Scriptures in this Lande Beda Histor. Angl. li. 1. ca. 1. Meditation of Scriptures doth not signifie the praiers of the Church If they searched the trueth with fiue tongues then did they read or heare the scriptures in four toungs besides the Latine The Latine tongue was common to those that were learned in those foure Nations Let them take Bede how they wil he maketh nothing for their Latine seruice in the words which they bring The Italian Monks which vnderstood not the SaxoÌ„ toung might haue the Latine seruice in their Abbey but that the people had it in their parish Churches caÌ„not be proued by any place of Bede Hauing Saint Pauls Rule that the people should vnderstand the praiers that are made in the church we neede not search in what tongue eche Nation had their seruicâ— These shifs of the Iesuits being refelled Saint Pauls text is clear for vs. The seruice of the primatiue Church manifestly confirmeth our construction of Saint Paul What order the Apostles tooke for Church seruice as the bookes which they most esteeme doe testifie Constit. Apost lib. 8. cap. 16. The Church seruice diuided between the bishop the whole congregatioÌ„ * Cap. 18. * Cap. 20. The people could not make these answers except they vnderstood the tongue that the Bishop spake in The liturgies of Iames Basil and Chrysostome prescribe like aunswers for the people in the praiers of the Church That which we alleadge out of these liturgies hath the true and vndoubted testimoâ—ies of the Fathers Chrysost. in 2. Cor. in hâ—m 18. Marke the forme of publike praier in Chrysostomâ— time * Can they haue plainer words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Can they haue plaineâ— words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Ibidem * Aug. in Psal. 54. * Ambros. hexam lib. 3. cap. 5. * Leo. sermo 3. de ieiunio 7. mensis The publike praier of the whole people more auaileable with God than the praier of the priesâ— alone * Tertul. in Apologet. * Quasi manu facta Isidor de eccle officiis lib. 1. ca. 10. de lection That al shuldâ— pray sing in the church is a dutie and therefore a necessitie Legum Francie lib. 1. cap. 66. De eccles diuer capitulis Const. 123. * Lyra saith if the people vnderstaÌ„d the priestes praier benediction they be bâ—tâ—er affected to god ward and answere Amen with more deuotioÌ„ 1 Corinth 14 Iustinian applieth S. pauls place to proue that the people should bee edified stirred by the priests words to coÌ„fesse with their mouthes the praise of God in his church The pâ—iaers speaches of their Masse booke at this day proue the people should vnderstand answere the Priest in the chiefest parts of their Church seruice He that speaketh to men that which they cannot vnderstand mocketh and deludeth theÌ„ August de Doct. christia li. 4. cap. 10. 1. Corin. 14. * Ordinarium Missae secuÌ„dum vsum Sarum * Ideo precorvos fratres orate pro me * Orate fratres sorores pro me * Dominus nebiscuÌ„ Oremus * Ordinarium Missae secundiâ— vsum Sarum Sursum corda habemus ad Dominum Et cum spiritu tuo * Sacâ—rd se verâ—ens ad populum tacita voce dicat Orate fratres sorores prome O mockerie to desire the people to pray for him and yet so to speake it that no man shal heare it The Papists haue turned edification into gesticulation It is the people and not God that needeth the Priestes voice in the church praiers * Psal. 27. * Aug. de magiâ—â—ro cap. 1. Speach necessary in respect of the people which if they vnderstand not silence would doe theÌ„ as much good If it be needful for the Priest to speak in the Church seruice it is as needeful for the people to vnderstand what he saith The end of speaking is that others maie vnderstand if therâ—ore that want the first is superfluous August de magistro cap. 1. The Priest at his Masse vttereth euerie word as if the people did vnderstand him and ioyne with him in prayer Oremus Gratias agamus Quaesumus Offerimus Laudamus Benedicamus Adoramus Al toungs are alike to God God no respecter of persons much lesse of toungs Pilates act is not so good a reason for the latine seruice as Caiphas prophesie was for the Popes infallible iudgement and yet either is verie foolish Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. All tongues are fitte for praier The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. S. Augustine rackt by the Iesuites from his right meaning August epist. 118. cap. 5. * The worde should be hodie It is madnes to breake the custome of the vniuersall Church in thinges indifferent The Iesuites defend a new custome against the auncient and generall order of Christs Church are they not mad by S. Augustines rule Lyra. in 1. Cor. 14. Iohan. Eckins in locis communibus The south IndiaÌ„s euer had and yet haue their seruice in their mother tongue * Sigismund liber in rerum Moscouit arum Commentariis cap. de dâ—cimis So haue the Moscouites and Armenians * Petrus Bello de moribus Armeniorum All Africa Asia and the North parts of 〈…〉 â—nd barâ—arous tongues Aeneas Syluius hiâ—â— â—ohem cap. 13. God from heauen decided that the Russians and Morauians should haue their seruice in their natiue tongue though it were barbarous Concil Lateranens sub Innocent 3. ca. 9. * in plerisque partibus Populi diuersar linguaruÌ„ * Secundum diuersitates linguarum Mo tongues vsed in the west Church than the Latine tongue The general vse of the primatiue Church confiâ—meth the seruice in the English tongue All tongues allowed in the primatiue Church for men to make their publike prayers in The Iesuits are so Catholike that they haue not so much as one Father for the greatest points of their religion The walles of the Church were theirs but not the faith of the Church Pilates authoritie is all the holde the
Rome notwithstanding he professe him selfe an open enemie to the Queene Phi. You still presse vs with that which we neuer ment Theo. You stil defend your selues there where we doe not strike This is the very drift and scope of all your examples as your owne wordes witnes And sor vs of the schoole and Clergie whither should we rather flee than to him Now that he hath openly shewed himselfe an enemie to her Highnes in accursing her Person in remouing her Crowne in forbidding her subiects to obey her in ayding rebelles against her and assaulting her land with force you can not so much as doubt woulde you neuer so faine the facts are so notorious and fresh in the memories of all men Phi. We noted this in you that where the Britanes and Saxons receiued preachers from Rome with honour and thankes you persecute them with all kinde of torments Theo. Your attempt is as contrary to theirs as your reward is diuers from theirs They came with religion to God and submission to Princes you come with neyther Phi. I woulde you knewe it wee come with both And you may bee ashamed to charge vs with two such haynous crimes prouing neyther Theo. Haue patience till wee come to the place where both shall bee discussed and see whether that which is nowe saide shall then be proued or no but in the meane time goe forwarde with the rest of your examples Phi. Wee flee to him of whose predecessors all the famous fathers called for aide comfort and counsel in their like distresses as Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius Chrysostome and Augustine of Innocentius Basil of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Miletius of Damasus Theodoret of Leo the great and all the rest of other holy Popes Theo. This is no reasoning but rouing You florish with a few general and doubtful termes neither opening the causes nor expressing the circumstances They called you say For ayde comfort and counsell What ayde such as the Bishops of Rome might and did yeeld in those dayes without chalenging any supremacie That is nothing to your purpose neither will that warrant your gadding to Rome Such as none could giue but they that were rulers heads of the whole Church That were somewhat if it could bee proued but your examples cōtaine no such thing Uiew the particulars Cyprian in his epistles to Cornelius Stephanus neuer calleth them otherwise than brethren and collegues and in matters concerning the regiment of the Church as well giueth as taketh both counsell and comfort But can you shewe that Cyprian euer allowed any man to runne to Rome for helpe against the iudgements and acts of other Bishops if you can not as wee bee right sure you be not able then can we shew you where Cyprian misliketh and plainely reproueth this posting of yours to Rome writing to Cornelius Hee saith that certaine persons condemned in Africa by the Bishops there Romam cum mendaciorum suorum merce nauigauerunt sailed to Rome with their fraight of lies adding farther And now what is the cause of their comming for either they like that they did and so perseuere in their wickednes or if they mislike relent they know whither they may returne For where it is a thing prescribed to vs al and besides that equal and right that euery mans cause be there heard where the crime was committed and euery Pastor hath his portion of the flocke assigned him which he must gouerne and rule as one that shall giue an accompt of his doings to God Oportet vtique eos quibus praesumus non circūcursare Those that be vnder vs must not runne thus about to Rome but there plead their cause where they may finde both accusers and witnesses vnlesse perhaps a few desperat and loose companions take the authoritie of the Bishops of Africa to be lesse than at Rome The like hee sayth of one Basilides that being depriued of his Bishopricke procured letters from Rome for his restitution Neither can this infringe the ordering of the next Bishop lawfully finished that Basilides running to Rome deceiued Stephanus our collegue by reason he is farre off not acquainted with the truth of the case getting himselfe to be restored vniustly to the Bishopricke from the which he was iustly deposed If Cyprian did not like that Cornelius should medle with matters concluded in Africa neither esteemed the restitution of Basilides made by Stephanus but reiected it as voyde and vniust what other ayde thinke you would he call for at their hands but onely such mutual concorde as should profite the Church and well beseeme the seruantes of Christ Phi. If Cyprian woulde not Athanasius did who being Patriarke of Alexandria fled twise to Rome for succour in his owne person and was there not onely receiued and harboured but also restored to his former dignitie of Iulius notwithstanding the Councels of Tyrus and Antioche had decreed the contrarie and Constantius the Emperour consented thereto Theo. The troubles of Athanasius gaue Iulius good cause both to claime and vse the vttermost of his authoritie The wrong offered Athanasius was so shamefull the madnes of Arians subuerting the faith and oppressing the Church so manifest the rage of Constantius assisting their heresie with all his might so cruell that if euer the Bishop of Rome woulde stirre this time must needes force him to doe his best Phi. And so he did I warrant you Theo. What did hee Phi. You knowe well inough hee summoned the Arians to appeare before him examined their proceedings reuersed the sentence giuen against Athanasius and placed him in his Bishopricke in spite of his aduersaries Theo. Can you proue that Iulius did al this alone without the help of others or that he did any part of this as head of the Church Uicar general to Christ Phi. What cauils you inuent when you be vrged with any thing Theo. What broken reedes you leane too and thinke them strong pillers It is well knowen the Bishop of Rome was not onely Patriarke of the West parts but of the foure Patriarkes also which were the chiefest Bishops of Christendome in order and accompt the first By reason whereof no Councell could be generall vnlesse hee were called no matters concerning the whole Church or principall Patriarks could be handled vnlesse he were present or priuie to the same Which prerogatiue was giuen him by consent of men not by graunt from Christ in respect of the Citie that was the Seate of the Empire then ruling the worlde not in token of any supremacie descending from Peter Thus much we graunt without any proofe of yours more than this if you would sweate out your heartes you shall neuer proue by these nor any other examples of the primitiue Church Phi. Then by your owne confession hee was the chiefest and highest Bishoppe in the worlde Theo. He was before the rest in honour and
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the