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A48817 The difference between the Church and Court of Rome, considered in some reflections on a dialogue entituled, A conference between two Protestants and a Papist / by the author of the late seasonable discourse. Lloyd, William, 1627-1717. 1674 (1674) Wing L2677; ESTC R18276 29,803 41

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frequent repetition of the Statutes against Provisors in the time of our Ancestors and applied as a competent Security against those Usurpations of the Pope which were said by the seasonable Discourse to tend so much to the impoverishing of this Nation But in the mean time the Author doth not consider that the frequency of those Statutes sheweth as much their insufficiency as the making them argues the good will of the Legislators nor is it probable that any Remedy can be sufficient when the Supremacy of the Pope is acknowledged and where the whole belief of the Professors is concluded in that one rule of believing as the Church believes For the Pope being supposed to be the Head of the Church what Interpreters of the Churches Faith can they meet with equal to the Head of it Not to speak of those who believe in the infallibility lodged in the Pope General Councils are not every day assembled nor is it probable the Pope will permit them if likely to contradict or lessen his Authority In their absence what is there which can be put in ballance with the Reverence given to St. Peters Chair amongst the Professors of that Religion Shall the opinion of one or two Priests stand in competition with the Pope Can any man believe this plausible Doctrine of the power of Kings and contempt of the Pope's in comparison of theirs can have any other aim or effect than to procure a connivance or admittance of that Religion which whatever the opinion of some few Professors may be and what their sincerity is may be another question when it recovers its strength must turn like the Countrey-man's snake to sting those who with so much charity and kindness shall cherish and favour it To make this whole matter obvious to a common understanding let us suppose some loyal person stumbling at the irregular claims of the Pope and confusion and miseries brought into the world by that exorbitance and upon the conviction of that one Point which for its plainness he best understands and for its influence and effect upon his secular Interests he most studiously minds holding fast the loyal Principles of the Church of England since no other batteries can shake him comes Father N. and tells him he is in a great mistake to think that the great exaltation of the Pope's Authority is so necessary a Doctrine that for his own part he doth not believe it Well that stumbling-block being removed there is a Convert made to the Romish Church perhaps eminent enough to lead many others by his Example at least it is highly probable he wants not influence upon his Wife and Children if not others of his Relations and Acquaintance to pervert them also probably without conditioning so severely for their loyalty But what will become even of that capitulation when after perhaps some years of confirmation in all the Romish Opinions and particularly that of submission to the Churches Authority death or the censure of the Pope may have removed or a preferment have converted F. N. or such loyal Casuist For why may he not change his Opinion as Father Cressy did his in that very particular who in the first Edition of his Exomologesis made a Protestation of his Duty and Obedience which is corrected in the second And in any of these cases our Proselyte shall find himself entangled with the new Doctrines of his Confessor who in a season when Factions of State or other Circumstances prepare men for such dangerous Doctrines as they are too subtle to avow them or at least press them unseasonably shall urge the submission to the Churches opinion and then the quotations of so many Doctors which are now by our Author rejected and sleighted in comparison of one or two plausible opinions shall sound loud in concurrance with the Head of the Church who besides the credit of his own determination has the prescription of so many Ages the actual deposition of Princes in all parts of Europe from time to time and the decrees of Universal Councils to justifie his claim In vain shall the Penitent alledge to his Confessor that Father N. was of that opinion The Reply will be easie that Father N. was a good yea and a learned man in things where he agrees with the Church but still he was a man and subject to error and therefore not to be credited when he disagreed with the Church of which the Pope Colledge of Cardinals General Councils and so many Doctors who have wrote before and after Father N. are better and more credible Expositors than he It will be hard for any body to disentangle himself from this Argument if he have once surrendered his Faith implicitely to that of the Roman Church or as we have shewed under the usual Obligations been engaged in its Communion And if a person of so remarkable loyalty as we in this Instance suppose our Proselyte to be cannot be able to withstand and secure himself what shall we suppose of those his Relations and Acquaintance whom his Authority and Example turned to the Church of Rome perhaps with less Circumspection I have many Reasons to believe F. N. to be a very honest man as I know him to be ingenuous and learned and therefore stand amaz'd to see him offer to the World a Proposal so unreasonable as this is If he be in earnest as I must suppose him to be his Address to one of our Church whom he would bring over to his Part will run in this or such like Form Those only belong to the Fold of Christ who are under the conduct of the Universal Pastor his Holiness the Pope and they alone are sound in the Faith and consequently capable of Salvation who believe the Doctrine received by the Catholick that is the Roman Church It is therefore necessary for you as you tender the eternal welfare of your Soul religiously to obey this Pastor and believe all the Proposals of this Church But notwithstanding though this Pastor and as I shall presently demonstrate this Church have solemnly declared that Princes may be Excommunicated and then deprived of their Dominions by his Holiness you must by no means believe that damnable Doctrine and though you are sure to be excommunicated for your stubbornness therein as F. N. at this day is for this only crime you must endure it rather than comply with those false and rebellious Tenets that subvert the Laws destroy the Peace and endanger the Sacred Persons of Soveraign Princes In short upon pain of damnation you must be in Communion with the Roman Church and yet under the same penalty you must be content to be excommunicated you must believe as the Church believes and yet you must not believe so Before I leave this Point I must beg leave to add one Observation which may be useful to the determining how far it will consist with Prudence to hearken to the Proposition made for the encouraging by the relaxation of Penalties those
under some of them are absolutely void and null by the Decree of this Council and we must come to new Purchases to be secur'd in the possession of whatsoever we possess or challenge for our own And how fair Chapmen we shall meet with in that Case it will not be difficult to determine My next Allegation is of the Council of Lyons where the Pope after mature deliberation had with his Cardinals and the Council having depos'd and deprived the Emperour and absolv'd all those from their Oaths of Allegiance who had sworn it to him and commanded that no person should own him from thenceforth as Emperour or any way obey or intend to obey him and excommunicated all such as should give him Counsel or any way favour him and ordered that the Electors should proceed to a new Choice the aforesaid particulars being read in the Council the Pope and Prelates sitting in Council with Candles burning in their hands thundred out their Excommunication against the deposed Emperour Frederick c. The words of the Council are plain enough but when illustrated by such a Comment as the Actual Deposing of an Emperour I cannot think it needful to subjoyn any farther Enforcement but proceed to the remaining Allegation from the Determination of the Council of Constance which in the seventeenth Session decrees defines and ordains that whosoever whether he be King Cardinal Patriarch Archbishop Bishop Duke Prince Earl Marquess or of any other Condition or Dignity either Ecclesiastical or Secular shall hinder disturb or molest Sigismund King of the Romans and Hungary and the King of Arragon from meeting c. shall incur the Sentence of Excommunication c. and shall be deprived of all Honour Dignity and Office c. Where by the way we may take notice that this Council who lay so severe Penalties on the Violators of their Safe Conduct were not asham'd perfidiously to violate it themselves on Iohn Huss who in confidence thereof put himself into their hands Besides this we alledge from this Council Pope Martin's Letter approved by the last Session of the same Council where his Holiness admonishes and requires all Professors of the Christian and Catholick Faith the Emperour Kings Dukes Princes Marquesses Earls Barons c. that they drive out of their Kingdoms Provinces Cities c. all Hereticks according to the tenour of the Lateran Council which begins Sicut ait c. And then decrees That all Hereticks Partakers or Defenders of them though they shine in the Dignity of Patriarchs Archbishops Bishops Kings Queens Dukes or any other Ecclesiastical or Mundane Title c. shall be pronounced Excommunicate in the presence of the People every Sunday and Holy-day c. and requires that they proceed to deprivation of Dignities c. Now our Author to all this given in proof by me from these oecumenical Councils as the Romanists stile them opposes the Authority of one Iohn Bishop who in a Book written in the time of Q. Elizab. proved that the Constitution of the Lateran Council upon which the whole authority of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance and deposing Princes is founded is no other then a Decree of Pope Innocent the III. and was never admitted in England yea that the said Council was no Council at all nor was any thing at all there decree'd by the Fathers So then we are come to a Resolution of Faith if one single man shall write a Book against a received Doctrine in the Church that founds it self on the Decree of a Universal Council and shall deny that Council to be valid or received in a particular Church that Doctrine however received or founded as is above mentioned ceases to be the Doctrine of the Church Which if it be true I believe 't will be almost impossible for any man to be a Heretick some one or other having wrote a Book in the defence of his Tenet how Heterodox soever it were and disparaged the Authority of that Council that condemned it But this Author who relies so much on the credit of Iohn Bishop should have adverted to those very cogent Arguments which Cardinal Perron produces in his long Speech to the third Estate and Dr. Vane has since brought in favour of that Council and his Confutation of all Suggestions alledged on the contrary part Also he should have taken notice of the Subsidiary proof lately added by F. Labbe and Cossart Editors of the Councils now at Paris who there from a Copy supposed to be written in that very Age give the Canons of that Council in Greek deficient chiefly in those parts where the Controversie between the Eastern and Western Church was determined to the disadvantage of the Greeks And lastly he should have considered that the Council of Trent whose Authority he will not dispute has alledged the Canons of this fourth Lateran Council and therefore it will not be very reasonable to oppose I. Bishop to all those Fathers But to pass this How comes it about that our Author tells us this Council was never admitted in England Did he consider what power the Pope then claimed in this Island when he had rendered and openly stiled the King his Vassal As also how much work the English had to do in that Assembly particularly in the case of Stephen Langton then Archbishop of Canterbury and that the Canons of that Council were allowed and confirmed in the National Synod held at Oxford A. 1222. Had he told us that this convention notwithstanding all its pompous pretences of so many Patriarchs Emperous Kings and Princes Bishops and Doctors that attended at it was nothing but a Scene dressed up in Masquerade he would perchance have said something to the purpose For instance That the man who play'd the Greek Emperour was Hen. brother to Baldwyn Earl of Flanders that had lately before seised Constinople and some few more of the Greeks Towns with the Arms of the Croisade and had no other Title to his Conquests besides the Pope's gift That the Latin Emperour who yet was but Elect was the Popes Pupil so made by the will of his Mother Constance and chosen Emperor by the Popes influence who had unmade two Emperors before of whom one i. e. Otho 4. was then living and the next Pope save one Innocent the IV. deposed this very Emperour Farther that Iohn de Brenne and Almerick held the Kingdomes of Ierusalem and Cyprus of the Popes gift That our King Iohn was become his Feudatary and as his Holiness was pleased to stile him his Vassal that Iames King of Arragon held by the same Copy who besides was a Minor and Pupil to the Pope who was so favourable as to give him a Crown whose Father had deserved so ill as to forfeit to his Holiness both Kingdom and Life Then farther that Philip King of France had his Kingdom twice put under Interdict by this very Pope and was threatned worse That Andrew of Hungary was
also by this very Pope threatned with Deprivation and having thereby learnt Obedience became his Creature and Favourite and was made by him General of the Croisade against the Mahumetans as Simon de Monifort was of that against the Hereticks of France and the Princes of Flanders of that against the Greek Schismaticks This one would think were a fair account of all the Crown'd Heads that sent their Embassadors and Bishops to this Council But the Ecclesiastical part of the Comedy was of the same piece for of the four Eastern Patriarchs as they call them three were Italians and one a French man all made by this Pope and no more own'd by the people of those Churches to which they pretended then his Holinesses titular Bishops use to be Our business here is not to consider whether this or other Councils were free or obnoxious since they be received by the succeeding Roman Church and by our Author himself I would leave this Point but that our Author is pleased to assert a very strange Paradox that though I cited the third Lateran Council that of Lyons and that of Constance besides this fourth of Lateran yet on this fourth the whole Authority of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance and deposing Princes is founded Not to dispute the Superstructures of the two after Councils certainly the third of Lateran could not well build on the fourth which was not then in being I am sure the Council of Constance was so far from owning the having learnt this Lesson from the fourth Lateran Council that they expresly quote the third for the most Orthodox Doctrine of Treason and Rebellion where by the way I cannot omit to mention the wonderful dexterity and confidence of Cardinal Perron in his Oration to the third Estate who in this matter produces the Decrees of this Council as a sufficient security for Princes as also of the Pen-man of the Controversial Letters who seems no stranger to our Author and desires us to look upon the Church of Rome in a Council to be convinc'd that she does not favour this deposing Power And also singles out this very Council to shew the Orthodox Doctrine of the most loyal Roman-Catholick Church whose Decree I even now cited on the contrary part When as the Writer of the Controversial Letters plainly confesses that the Story is no more then this There had prevailed an Opinion in this age and it was seconded by Practise that the people might at their pleasure correct their offending Lords and kill Tyrants notwithstanding any Oath made to them without expecting the Sentence or Command of any Judge whatsoever And this with much ado was condemned in this Council though it cost Iohn Gerson a great deal of pains and more then that the imminent hazard of his Life to compass thus much That it should not be lawful for any ordinary Cut-throat to destroy Soveraign Princes but remain the singular Prerogative of his Holiness the Pope I shall not exaggerate Consequences nor pursue this Topick which my Author complains never fails when any one has a mind to declaim against Papists but hope that notwithstanding his Profession that he is yet to learn the name and scituation of that Countrey which believes it 't is manifest as Noon-day-light that whosoever believes the Article of the Roman-Catholick Church must also as large a morsel as it is be content to digest at least swallow this ENQUIRY IV. Whether Princes of the Roman Communion have sufficient Powers to defend themselves from the Tyrannies and Encroachments of the Pope We have seen the Doctrine of the Church of Rome concerning the Popes Power over Princes which if it be truly stated and I think nothing in the world is evident if my Argumentation be not will easily determine the issue of this Enquiry For not to insist on the many defects both intellectual and moral which are pretended to incapacitate for Government or otherwise forfeit it discoursed at large by the Canonists and more largely commented on by practise in the deposition and removal of such Princes by Popes If we suppose them in all Points qualified for Rule and zealous Assertors of the Roman Faith yet notwithstanding upon any disobedience to the Churches Dictates or contumacy of any kind to her Commands which may subject them to the censure of the Church and the displeasure of his Holiness and thereby expose to Excommunication of the due infliction whereof they only are Judges all Right and Authority upon the Principles before laid down immediately becomes forfeit and the very questioning hereof in Thesi the thing being determined by Oecumenical Councils and so made de Fide will be Heresie And now whereas no Prince can maintain himself without the Obedience of his Subjects and ready Execution of his Ministers I demand whether upon any difference started and unless the Prince will tamely give up all there must be many a Minister of State will dare to uphold and defend the Rights of his Master in opposition to the Pope If he do he is sure to bring all the hatred of the Pope and Clergy upon him and it is observed that Ministers of State have seldom weathered the opposition of the Gown-men of either sort But what if we should say that Princes themselves dare seldom adventure to maintain their own Rights against the Pope Not to insist upon the personal apprehensions they may justly have of a Dagger from a Clement or a Ravilliac It is not unknown to any that Princes even when in Peace live with the jealousies and precautions of War and are as industrious for accession of Allies and advantages to themselves as to prevent those of a contrary party still expecting and providing for a storm in the deepest calm of tranquillity and Peace If as sometime heretofore they did all Europe submitted to the Pope what advantage or disadvantage to any Prince would the good will of the Pope be What influence would he not have by the Clergy amongst the people of any Prince if not absolutely to raise Rebellion at least to slacken and abate the zeal and fervour of the people What diversions to this or that holy War or Interpositions for Peace could he not make as it should suit best with the party he shall most favour And how hardly could such plausible desires be denied to the holy Father These and the like considerations render the Kings of France and Spain so jealous of the making Popes or Cardinals though it is certain the Popes dare not be so openly partial and unequal to Princes nor would that partiality be so fatal to their Interests now as heretofore because the Reformation hath spread into many Countreys which value not the Inclination of the Pope but rather incline to the party he most opposes which as it seems a counter-ballance so is it a great awe to the Pope lest their partiality should force Princes to cherish and favour the Protestant party and perhaps even to