THE CATHOLICK DOCTRINE OF TRANSVBTANTIATION proued to be ancient and Orthodoxall Against the sclanderous tongue of D. Iohn Cozens a Protestants minister auouching the sayd doctrine neuer to haue been knowne in the Church before the Councels of Latteran and of Trent Aug. in psal 36. Tanto magis debemus commemorare vanitatem Haereticorum quanto magis quaerimus salutem eorum By how much more we seeke the saluation of HereticKes by so much more we ought to maKe the vanity of their lyes appeare Luther Epist ad Io. Heruagium TypographuÌ„ The sacramentaries began their opinion of the sacrament with lyes and with lyes they defend it PRINTED AT PARIS M.DC.LVII TO THE READER COVRTEOVS READER As the cause of my first writing this paper was to satisfy the Countesse of Insiquin giue her not only the true sense and meaning of S. Austin but also the beleefe of all Orthodox Antiquity concerning the reall presence of Christ in the holy Eucharist so the reason why I now publish it is to informe those of the truth who peraduenture may haue heard of a conference which casually happened thereupon between my selfe and D. Iohn Cozens a Protestant minister Which because it is related by some of his friends with much partiality preiudice to the truth I am aduised by friends to publish it with all the most materiall circumstances wherewith it was accompanyed or which were the occasion of it whereby it will appeare that Luther the grand Patriarke of all Protestant Congregations neuer spoke truer then when speaking of the Abettors of the Sacramentarian doctrine which is the doctrine of the English pretended reformation he sayd Epist ad Ioannem Heruagium TypographuÌ„ The Sacramentaries began their opinion with lyes and with lyes they defend it this I say will appeare plainly by the following relation 1. The Countesse of Insiquin being trobled at her Honorable Lords being become a Roman Catholick and vsing all the meanes she could to draw him to returne againe to Protestanisme among other indeauours she applyed the industry of D. Io Cozens a Protastant minister who to that effect wrot sundry papers to him wherein he impugned the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome ouer the whole Church of Christ as a doctrine crept-in since the Apostles tymes and not warranted by the authority of Orthodox Antiquity 2. These papers the earle of Insiquin was pleased to send vnto me and withall requested me to returne an answer to them especially to the authorities alleadged therein out out of S. Gregory the great and S. Cyprian against our Catholick doctrine 3. In compliance with my Lords request I drew a short answer wherein I shewed first by the testimone of the Doctours owne brethren that his vrging of S. Gregories refusing the title of vniuersall Bishop is very vaine and idle and grounded vpon wilfull blindnesse and Hereticall obstinacy because it is cleerer then the sunne and confessed by the greatest schollers of Protestant syde that S Gregory notwithstanding the foresayd obiection did clayme and exercise the Primacy of authority and iurisdiction ouer all Churches in causes spirituall and Ecclesiasticall and therefore he tearmeth the see of Rome the head of all Churches the mother Church the mistresse of Nations and auoucheth them to be peruerse men that will not be subiect to her and that S. Peter was by God appointed ouer all the Church c. These acknowledgments are made of S. Gregory by Bale Bulinger Melanchton the Centurists and other Protestant writers against D. Cozens and his old worne-out obiection which hath beene so many tymes already answered and refuted not only by our Catholick Diuines but euen by Protestants In so much that Andreas Friccius a Protestant whom Peter Martyr styleth an excellent learned man writeth thus in confutation of this foolish obiection saying L. 2. de Eccles cap. 10. pa. 570. Some there be c. that obiect the authority of Gregory who saith that such a title pertaineth to the Precursor of Anti-Christ but the reason of Gregory is to be knowne and it may be gathered from his words which he repeateath in many Epistles that the title of vniuersall Bishop is contrary to and doth gainsay the grace which is commonly poured vpon all Bishops He therefore that calleth himselfe the only Bishop taketh the Bishop like power from te rest Wherefore this title he would haue to be reiected c. But it is neuerthelesse euident by other places that Gregory thaught that the charge and Principality of the whole Church was committed to Peter And yet for this cause Gregory thought not that Peter was the forerunner of Anti-Christ Thus Friccius So euident it is by the Confession of this Protestant that S. Gregory himselfe claymed and defended the Primacy of the Roman Bishop Church ouer all other Bishops and Churches whatsoeuer And yet D. Cozens will be still vrging against vs this obiection of s. Greg which proceeding doth euidently conuince him to be either extreme ignoraÌ„t little verst euen in his owne authors or else which is much worse to haue layd a syde all shame and honesty being resolued to maintaine any thing though neuer so cleer against his owne conscience so that he may for base ends and secular interest deceaue the vnlearned 4. Hauing shewed that his argument drawne from the authority of s. Gregory was of no credit euen with the learnedst of his owne schoole I went on declaring how the minister abused S. Cyprian by disiointing clipping and confounding S. Cyprians sayings that so he might obscure his meaning which are the ordinary shifts of Protestant ministers and are most vnexcusable in D. Cozens because he wilfully perseuers in it notwithstanding the notice which was lately taken thereof in the very selfe same controuerâ—y by that learned Diuine Mr. Thomas Carre in his occasionall discourses and in like occasion by D. Thomas Vane in his vindication of the Councel of Latteran both of them laying open his foul peruerting and corrupting of the fathers and the Councel to his eternall shame and confusion for it cannot but appeare to euery indifferent man that the minister is not so much a louer of truth as he would faine appeare to his followers but rather to be accounted of the number of those who loue darkenesse more then light falshood more then truth 5. These hereticall slights being discouered in the Minister I shewed how the places of S. Cyprian being faithfully cited make most cleerly for our Catholick doctrine seing it is cleer that he beleeued and taught that the Roman Church was by diuine institution the Principall and chief Church that she had the prerogatiue of being the mother Church of all other Churches that the Primacy or head-gouerning authority was by Christ giuen to S. Peter and his successor and that his Chaire that is the see of Rome is the fountaine and head-spring from whence do flow all the stremes of pure and infallible doctrine is the sunne from whence all the starres
Lateran to haue desined and authentically declared the doctrine of Transubstantiation to be an article of faith a diuine reuealed verity conueyed downe to vs by full tradition of the Church and yet that we must contemne it as an errour vpon Luther Caluin and the rest of the Protestant ministers word what I say is this but to grant that to be a Protestant a man must haue his braynes inuerted and preferre the corrupt fancies wilfull mustakes and damnable lyes of a few new Turbulent and fâ—ctious Apostatas before the vnanimous testimony of a world of learned wise and holy men and that in a matter of aboue 300. yeares before Luther or any of his lewde associats were borne and of which all those other holy and learned fathers were eye-witnesses as what was the religion of the Christian world at that tyme what the doctrine of faith which their Ancestors euery where professed and deliuered to them as an Apostolicall Tradition and diuine reuealed verity concerning the reall presence of Christ in the Eucharist These are the vicctories D. Cozens hath gayned to wit ouer himselfe and ouer his Protestant Congregation which as they proue D. Cozens to be no Doctour of sauing truth so they proue the religion which he doth professe and teach to be most prophane and false and altogether grounded vpon sclanderous lyes vttered out of malice against the Roman Church truth of her Catholick faith 23. Heere againe I cannot but beseech the Protestant Reader for the loue he beares to that sacred ransome of his soul the pretious bloud of our Sauiour that he will consider what a kinde a thing the Protestant religion is which relyes vpon such Principles and which hath no more certainty of truth then it is certaine that the bare word of Luther Caluin swinglius Bâ—za and the rest of that black-gard is to be preferred before the vnanimous testimony of 1285. fathers assembled together in general Councel from all parts of the Christian world bearing witnesse in a matter of fact of their owne tymes aboue 300. yeares before any of those other lewde Apostatas were borne 24. Though that which hath beene hitherto related of the Answers which D. Cozens made to the authorities of the fathers and of the sclanderous vntruths he vttered against the Roman Catholick faith do sufficiently declare him to be a man of the very same stampe with all the rest of the ministery of the Protestant kerke that is one that is alwayes ready to say and vnsay as shall be most for the aduantage of his cause and to vtter any thing without remorse that may proue disgracefull to the Roman Church yet in this meeting he gaue vpon seuerall occasions two or three other strong proofes thereof much to be obserued by all those that suffer themselues to be deceiued by him and rely vpon his word and doctrine in matters of faith and religion One is that whereas I had vpon occasion affirmed of Luther that he denyed S. Iames his Epistle to be the word of God D. Cozens denyed this of Luther with as much confidence as if he had had a face of brasse And yet there is nothing more acknowledged by those of Luthers schoole then this that Luther saies of S. Iames his Epistle that it is straminea epistola an epistle of straw and vnworthy altogether of an Apostolicall spirit In which respect Luther in Prolog huius epistola In which respect as also for other his horrible prophanings of Gods holy word L. de Sacram fol. 412. swinglius dorh style him a foul corrupter and horrible falsifyer of Gods word one that followed the Marcionites and Arians that razed out such places of holy writ that were against them Another argument of D. Cozens inconstancy in his assertions and confidence in impugning the knowne truth is that after he had most boldly auouched that the doctrine of Transubstantiation and adoration of the Sacrament was neuer knowne nor practized in the Church before the Lattetan Councel he presently corrected himselfe as if he had beene two fauourable towards the truth and not vttered a falshood loâ—de enough and therefore to make it wider he sayd that neither then was the foresayd doctrine defined by the Councel but afterwards by the Decree of Innocentius the third And yet there can be nothing more cleer then that the whole Councel did define the doctrine we speake of For it is one of the very first Heads or Articles of faith which the Councel doth define beginning the Decrees with firmiter credimus simpliciter confitemur we firmely beleeue and plainly confesse c. that the true body and bloud of Christ is truly contained in the Sacrament of the Altar vnder the formes of bread and wine Verum Christi corpus sanguis in Sacramento Altaris sub speciebus panis vini veraciter continetur transubstantiatiatis pane in corpus vino in sanguinem potesta te diuina Decreta Concil Lat. 4. cap. 1. the bread being by diuine power transubstantiated into the body and the wine into the bloud Thus the Councel And yet D. Cozens is not ashamed to auouch that not the Councel of Lateran but Innocentius the third defined the doctrine of Transubstantiation Neither is his impudence lesse intollerable in denying the Adoration of the Sacrament to be more ancient then the Latteran Councel for no Catholick Diuine can now speake plainer then the fathers of the purest tymes of the Church do for it namely Theodoret S. Austin S. Chrysostome S. Ambrose S. Gregory Nazianzen and others whose authorities may be seene in Coccius Gualterus and Bellarmine and are arkdowledged by Chemnitius Chemnit exam part 2. pag. 92. Parkins Chrispinus Bilson the Centurists and other Protestant writers and Marbachius another Protestant author doth confesse it to be a Most ancient custome which the Church vsed in shewing to the people the Eucharist to be adored in the Masse c. How then is the Doctour not ashamed to maintaine such foul and palpable vntruths with so much boldnesse Who would be a minister of the Protestant Kerke seing it is an office which no man can personate but by laying a syde all regard to truth and publish himselfe to be a meere impostour and seing the building which he is to sustaine is so ruinous that he cannot vphold it and keepe it from ruine but by ruining his owne soule and running wilfully into damnation 25. And what man is there desirous of saluation that will not hold himselfe obliged to abandon such a man as a most vnsafe guide to heauen yea as a certaine deceauer of soules one of the number of those whom S. Paul saies are subuerted and condemned by their owne iudgment because it is euident that he defends a cause a doctrine a faith a religion which cannot be defended but by forging lyes impugning the knowne truth and maintaining Principles contrary to the light of nature and common reason as hath
neere vnto him as to his Kate that is to his sacrilegious whore to be short doth he not confesse both of himselfe and the rest of his reformed ministers Praef. in Proposi de Bigam an 1528. proposit 62. 63. 66. That lustfull desires do burne in vs we cannot deny seing by reason thereof we are become infamous in the sight of our congregations Such are D. Cozens saincts fuch the first Apostles and founders of his Church Luther the grand Patriark a lewde Apostata fryar yoaked to a Nunne instructed by the Diuel Zuinglius a fyrebrand of Hell for his seditious and bloudy spirit Caluin and Beza two most infamous Sodomits Carolostadius a rude and sauage man istructed also by the Diuel Oecolampadius Bucer Bullinger Peter Martyr and the rest all of them as foule and vggly as the fire of lust and other horrid vices could make them These are the first founders and raysers of the Protestant building these the first Apostles and preachers the pretended reformation these the models on which all the rest of the Protestant ministery are formed framed and of which they are liuing copies such lips such lettice such saincts such Churches 19. S. Gaudentius being reiected as an insufficient witnesse of the faith of those primitiue tymes I cited S. Cyril of Alexandria and the Councel of Ephesus sec §. 30. 31. To which the Doctour answered this is iust our doctrine and then fell into a contestation with my Lord of Insiquin about the Eucharist being a sacrifice and one while he auouched it to be a true reall sacrifice another while that it was a sacrifice only as it is a â—emoriall of the sacrifice our Sauiour offered of himselfe on the crosse And indeed he deliuered himselfe so coÌ„fusedly so vncoÌ„staÌ„tly that he made it cleere that he neither knowes how to define a sacrifice nor what a true sacrifice meanes And as to the authority of S. Cyril I leaue it to any vnderstanding Protestant to iudge wheter Protestants do generally beleeue that the things offered on the Altar that is the bread and wine be by the power of life conuerted into the true body and bloud of our Lord as S. Cyril cited § 30. doth beleeue and teach 20. After S. Cyril I alleadged S. Ambrose saying how many examples do we vse to proue that the thing is not thâ— which nature hath made but that which the blessing hath consecrated that the power of consecration is greater then the power of natâ—re for by consecration the very nature it selfe is changed c. 21 The Doctors answer to this authority was that that which was before instituted and ordayned by nature for the nourishment of our bodyes is now by our Sauiours institution designed to signify thâ— spirituall nourishment of our soules I replyed it is cleer S. Ambrose speakes of a change in nature of an intrinsecall Physicall change of such a change as none but the omnipotent power of the Creatour can make in his creatures which the deputaâ—â—on and designation you speake of doth not doe Heere I would haue gone on citing the authority of S. Ambrose to shew that he speake of an intrinsecall Physicall change But the Doctor being now growne loude and clamorous and hauing in that heate of words sayd that the doctrine of Transubstantiation was neuer knowne nor heard of in the Church before the Councel of Latteran my Lord of Insiquin vrged him to shew where the Church was that then opposed that pretended errour and maintained the truth against that Councel defining as it did But the Doctour came so short in satisfying my Lords demand that verily though he did lowdly worde it for almost a quarter of an houre yet he did not vtter any one word that could satisfy any rationall man to the Queree which which my Lord vrged against him very handsomly and very home For he could not so much as name any one Pastor of the Church that did shew himselfe for the truth against that Councel and oppose himselfe as a wall for the house of God in defence of the Catholick doctrine He named indeed twice or thrice scotus yet so as he well appeared to be conscius of his being not able to make it good that Scotus euer opposed the authority and definition of the Councel of Latteran and much lesse that he could make him who was not then borne appeare as a Church opposing such a Councel as was that of Latteran which consisted of 1285. fathers assembled from all parts of the Christian World the Pope himselfe Innocentius the third being present and the foure Prtriarkes two in person the other two by their Legats themselues being hindred the one by sicknesse the other by the difficulty of passing through the Turkes dominions 22. The Doctour hauing as I sayd vociferated for almost a quarter of an houre without giuing any kinde of satisfaction to my Lords Queree he rose vp made his excuse that his affaires would not not permitt him to stay any longer tyme and so all taking leaue one of another we parted euery one which way his occasions called him 23. Since this meeting some of his friends haue raised reports of great victories gayned by him as in like occasions they did of the occasionall discourses which were held with him by that learned Diuine Mr. Thomas Carre about seueral Articles of our Catholick faith and by D. Thomas Vane about the Councel of Latteran But the victories he gained were ouer himselfe not ouer his aduersaries as the relation which I haue heere made doth demonstrate For what was his insimulating S. Gaudentius of heresy but a conuiction of his owne ignorance and a confession that that ancient father beleeued and taught that which the now Roman Church doth beleeue and teach concerning the doctrine of Transubstantiation What was his saying to the testimony of S. Cyril and the Councel of Ephesus This is iust our doctrine but an open acknowledgment that he neither knowes the doctrine of the English conuocation creed nor what S. Cyrill and the Councel of Ephesus doth teach nor what the Councel of Trent hath defined What was the exposition he gaue to the testimony of S. Ambrose but an open professing himselfe to be a man that is carryed away with wilfull obstinaâ—y See Reynerus c. 3. §. tertia causa exeodem Illyricus tit de Walden §. sui not guided by the loue of verity One of his brethren as great a pretended Gospeller coming to translate those words of S. Iohn v c. 1. v. sui eum non receperunt his owne receiued him not tooke sui his owne for the nominatiue plural of sus a sow and turned it thus the swine receiued him not This beastly Heretick might as well and with as much reason defend and iustify this his prophane exposition of Gods holy word as D. Cozens can defend and iustify the sence he giues to S. Ambrose his words Lastly what is his granting the Councel of
master our sense and raison let vs do this in all things and especially in the mysteries not regarding alone the things which ly before vs. but holding fast his words we cannot be Cozened our sense may easily be deceaued his words cannot be vntrue our sense is often tymes beguiled Seing therefore our Lord hath sayd this is my body let not staggering nor doubt lay hold on vs but let vs beleeue it and see it with the eyes of our vnderstanding for nothing that is sensible is giuen vnto vs heere by Christ but in seÌ„sible thing indeed yet all that he giueth is insensible Thus S. Chrysostome And I beseech you Madame to giue eare vnto him and follow his aduice and Counsel much safer and securer to saluation then the new pretended light of a few vpstâ—rt turbulent and factious Ministers that haue nothing in them derseruing credit and authority seing they are by their owne brethren confessed to be foule corrupters and horrible falsifiers of Gods word So Swinglius of Luther Carleile of the English Protestant ministers p. 116. 144. Epistolae ad Ioan nem Heruagium TypographuÌ„ louers of darkenesse more then light falshood more then truth who obtrue vpon their vnlearned Proselites a doctrine which as Luther the grand Protestant Apostle saith they began with lyes and with lyes they desend it which I haue alfo heere demonstrated against your minister who was not ashamed to auouch against the cleerest euidence of truth that the doctrine of Transubstantiation was not knowne nor heard of in the Church before the Councel of Latteran which assertion how false it is euery one that can but reade may see by turning first to the 15. § taking there out of the Coun of Trent the doctrine of Transubstantiation and then comparing that doctrine with the testimonies of the fathers of euery age whome I haue cited as interpreters of the Scripture as Doctors and Teachers of the Church and as witnesses of the common beleef of the Christian world in their tymes all of them deliuering in as expresse termes as the Councel of Trent that the beleef of all Orthodox Christians ouer the world then was that in the Eucharist there is by Consecration made a Conuersion a Transmutatiation a Trans-elementation a change of the substance of the bread and wine into the body and bloud of our Lord which is the formall doctrine of Transubstantiation and all that the Church doth propose to all Christian 1 to be beleeued as a diuine reuealed verity Vnlesse it be that the Councel declares that this substantiall Conuersion is fitly properly called Tranfubstantiation Wherein that man must extremely Cosen himselfe and declare himselfe to be altogether voyde of common sense that should offer to preferre the clamourous non sense of a Protestant minister that knowes not the proper sense meaning of thousands of Lattin words before the iudgment of a Generall Councel consisting of thousands of the learnedst of all nations then Orthodox and Chrstian especially considering that Transubstantiation as euery schoole boy-knowes according to the Etymon and proper interpretation of the word must signify a connersion change of one substance into another substance and the Church whose authority is the greatest next vnto the diuine authority hath power to vse assigne and apply words not vsed before to expresse more plainely the truth meaning of her diuine and Apostolicall doctrine against those that do oppose it with their prophane nouelties as the practise of the Church in all ages doth declare against the Rebells of light that moued worre against her in those tymes §. 57. I Shall not adde heere any more in disproof of your ministers foule Sclauders That which I haue allready sayd takes off their wizard and is abundantly sufficient to make them appeare to any man that is deuested of preiudice passion to be nothing but the foule impostures of Heretiks who care not what vntruths they vtter though neuer so much against their conscience so that they may but disgracâ— the Church of God and render her contemptible to men by charging he with grosse and damnable errours in doctrines of faith and religion and by this perswasion draw ignorant people to contemne her authority and forsake her Communion and assume vnto themselues the authority of iudges in matter of Religion and this for secular ends and priuat interest Now for conclusion of this answer I beseech you Madame to cast an impartiall eye vpon the pretended reformation and consider the first authors of it and how they do defend it and the effects which it hath euery where produced The authors you will finde to be a rabble of most seditious and leuâ—d Apostatas the Doctrine they broached is full of sacrilegious blasphemies the effects it hath produced in all contries licentious liberty rebellion and other horrid vices all which doth make it manifest to all that do not wifully shut theire eyes that Protestanisme is not a reformed but deformed religion and therefore an open way leadging strayte to perdition and that the ministers you credit are wolues disâ—â—â—guised false Prophets deceiptfull teachers vnsent messengers who preach their owne foolish dreames corrupted fancies for Gods holy word and diuine reuealed verities you may know them whose they are by their pride auarice enuy vicious liues and ministers lying spirit which are Caracters giuen by ProtestaÌ„ts themselues of their owne ministery but are farre from being testimonies of Gods holy spirit inhabiting in them to teach them all truth and lead them the wayes of saluation That you may discouer their fraud auoyde their snarres and free your selfe from their tyrrany I beseech you Madamâ— to make your recourse to the throne of Grace with a deepe sense of your saluation imploring his mercy in the aboue cited words of S. Denis saying Replenish O Lord our spirituall eyes with thy singular and reuealed brightnes And you may not doubt but that he will poure into your soul the light of faith which is to bring you to the knowledge of sauin truth and with his grace inable you to imbrace it and professe it which shall be the dayly prayer MADAME Of your most humble and very sincere seruant W.W. An admonition for Doctour Cozens IF in replying to what is heere alleadged out of the fathers in proof of the antiquity of our doctrine he will shew himselfe a Doctour and speake to the purpose and not a Deceiuer vsing hereticall slights and fallacies to deceaue the ignorant let him first reflect on the state of the question which is heere between vs and Protestants and let all he sayes dirâ—ctly tend to confute and disproue that which we maintaine to be ancient and Orthodoxall against him all other sectaries do that oppose vs. The Question is in a matter of fact to wit wheter the ancient fathers the Pastors and Doctors of Gods Church did not beleeue and teach the same doctrine of Transubstantiation which the now Roman Catholick Church doth beleeue
of the firmament that is all particular Churches receiue the light of verity is the Origen and Center of vnity from whence do issue all the Lines of Power and iurisdiction which goe to the whole circumference of the Eccleasticall Hierarchy 6. Hauing returned this answer to my Lord of Insiquin his Lady with in few dayes after sent me another paper of her owne hand writing wherein she had collected out of some bookes of her owne some sayings of S. Austin which she conceiued to make very cleerely against our Catholik doctrine of the Reall presence of Christ in the Eucharist telling me withall that she had showne them to my Lord and that he had sayd that he could not well tell how they were to be vnderstood but that he did not doubt but that I could giue a satisfactory answer to them which therefore she desired of me and with what speed I could 7. Heereupon for my ladyes satisfaction I drew the following answer wherein I first deliuer some generall Rules to be obserued for the right vnderstanding of S. Austine or any other of the ancient fathers in the matter of the H. Eucharist Then applying the sayd Rules respectiuely to the places obiected out of S. Austine I shew how they make nothing at all against our Catholick doctrine This done I proue by cleere places of S. Austin that his beleef was the same with ours concerning the reall presence And lastly in further confirmation of our doctrine I adde the aggreing consent of all Orthodox Antiquity deliuered by the fathers of euery age from the dayes of S. Gregory the great vp to the Apostles all of them expounding the Scriptures in fauour of our doctriâ— and professing themselues to beleeue it and beating witnesse that it was in their tymes the beleef of all Orthodox Christians Churches which they taught and gouerned From all which I inferred and concluded against the authors of those bookes and all Protestant Ministers that pretend to Orthodox Antiquity for warrant of their doctrine that they be most foul impostours and wilfull deceauers and therefore of no credit nor to be beleeued nor trusted in matters of religion 8. This answer produced I know â—ot how a meeting with D. Cozens and this meeting a verbal contention about the sense of Antiquity concerning the reall presence of Christ in the Eucharist For vpon my coming to the Palais Royall to present this Answer to my Lady I was by and by after conducted by my Lord from his owne lodgins to D. Cozens his Chamber where I met my Lady with another ProtestaÌ„t Gentleman After the common salutes of Ciuility occasion being giuen me I told him the cause of my comming then to the Palais Royal was to bring my Lady an Answer which some three or foure dayes afore she had desired of me to some authorities of S. Austin which c. The Doctor replyed he knew not what she had done and that whatsoeuer it was she had done it of her selfe c. After some few words had passed between vs about that subiect I began with both their leaues to read my paper But I had scarce ended the first § but the minister interrupted me saying my lady may read your aÌ„swer another tyme if you haue any thing to say against our doctrine you may say it that which we beleeue is deliured by Gelasius and Theodoret two ancient fathers of the Church the rest did not disagre from them and they agree with vs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Theodoret. 9. I replyed first that I cam not to dispute about the meaning of Theodoret and Gelasius but to satisfy my lady concerning S. Austines sayings which she had sent me as making against our Catholick doctrine therefore I desired leaue to reade what I had made ready for that purpose Heere the Doctor cryed out as before my lady may reade you answer another tyme c. And then my lady shewed a desire that it might be so and sayd she would reade my paper afterwars and willed me to answer to Theodoret and Gelasius 10. Heereupon I replyed to the Doctor and sayd first Gelasius is not the man you take him to be who is he then sayd the Doctor not Gelasius the Pope sayd I neither doth he whosoeuer he be make any thing against vs as you may see in Bellarmine Heere the Doctor vttered against Bellarmine some scurrilous language of which Hereticall mouths are alwayes full but I tooke little notice of it and went on saying and for Theodoret it is euident his meaning is that in the Eucharist the mysticall signes that is the otward forme of bread and wine after consecration remaine in their owne proper nature figure and forme as before and not that they remaine in the same substance of bread and wine wherin they did inhere before consecration 11. The Doctor heere repeated with some vehemency 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in their substance in their substance in their former substance I answered 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nature essence yea substance doth not only and alwayes signify substance as it is diuided against accident but also rhe true nature and essence of euery thing as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth which word Theodoret doth also vse in the same place vpon the same occasion and in the same sense and you will not deny but that Acccidents haue an intrinsecall nature and essence proper to themselues and really distinct from the substance in which they do naturally inhere 12. Heere the Doctor to shew what a deepe Physopher he is cryed out with a repetition Accidentis est inesse Accidentis est inesse What then sayd I I hope you will grant that Accidents haue an accidentall essence distinct from the nature essence of the substance wherein they in here How then doth this accidentis est inesse Proue that Theodoret speakes not of the proper nature essence of the AccideÌ„ts wheÌ„ he sayes the mysticall signes remaine in their former nature c. 13. Heere that I might be permitted to read some authorities of the ancient fathers which I had made ready to shew my lady the sense of Orthodox Antiquity I sayd to the Doctor we contend heere about the meaning of Theodoret the argument which euen now you made for your doctrine Gelasius and Theodoret taught this the rest of the fathers did not dissent from them ergo c. This argument I say might be easily turned against you with much more efficacy but let vs ex dato non concesso suppose without granting that Theodoret and Gelasius did fauour your doctrine and then I argue thus Faith relyeth vpon authority and therefore in matters of faith the greatest authority must command our beleefe and sway our vnderstanding but the rest of the fathers do euidently hold with vs and their authority is incomparably greater therefore we are to submit to it and beleeue what they beleeued 14. Heere I was with much a do permitted to reade some authorities of