degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch-Flammins like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108.109 Bed l. 1. Hist Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well it s true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa. 233.234.235 Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession it s a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches for although there may be a visible Church without a Pastor as when the Pastor dieth the Church is not unchurched yet can there be no Pastor of a Church unless there be such a Church in being And for your Succession since the last pretended Reformation it was interrupted in Queen
how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seeme as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5.1 compared with chap. 3.1 3. chap. 4.10 Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14.23 Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hold it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9. And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he bath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had the oversight of all the Churches in their Diocesses some peculiars excepted and put in and put out at their pleasures and this must be allowed for the people
Maries daies when a Popish Priest was your Predecessor who had his autoritie from the Bishop who was a Papist and held of the Pope I could tell you their names if need were And neither that Priest or any of his Successors ever since have had any other calling or Ordination but from the Bishops as long as they were standing Pr. If this were true touching Succession yet you cannot denie but that we have the word and Sacraments and a companie of faithful Christians communicating in those Ordinances under a faithfull Pastor are a visible Church of Christ Ph. Touching the Word and Sacraments I have alreadie given you an answr and indeed the Papists and almost all Hereticks pretend as you do and have the word amongst them and their Ministers or Priests have as orderly a Calling and Ordination as yours have and yet this makes them not the true visible Churches of Christ as all you do acknowledg Pr. I do not conceive that the Papists have either the Word or Sacraments amongst them for that the word is so corrupted by their false Glosses and Translations that it s made a leaden rule to be bowed everie way to serve their own turn for upholding their superstitions and their service is in Latine which the common people understand not And for the Sacrament of Baptisme it hath so manie additions that the Nature of it is destroied And for their Ministerie they are professed Papists and adversaries to Christ in all his Offices Ph. I do confess their Ministers are no Ministers of Christ but lims of Antichrist in respect of their Callings yet I do not condemn them all as Reprobates no more then I do Pope Gregorie the great Thomas a Kempis Ferus Stella and other their Preachers whom I think to have been godly and devout men in their times And for corrupting the Scriptures if putting false Glosses upon them make Gods word cease to be Gods word then are you Formalists deeply guiltie for the vulgar Translation is abominably corrupt and yet you allowed it and manie of you used it translated in the late Service-Book And all that you alledge for your succession of Ministerie and visible Churches your Classes Councels and Synods their autoritie over other Churches compelling others by the Temporall Power to believe and worship God as they see best is in effect grounded upon or agreeing with the corrupt Glosses and notes of the Rhemists upon the New Testament and other popish Authors and thence fetched by the late Formalists to defend themselves against the Puretans And for the Latine Service it is much like our Organ Anthems both edifying alike and the one as tollerable as the other See the old Protestant and New Formalist Pa. 36.37 Aud concerning the Papists addition of Cream Salt Spittle c. to the Sacrament of Baptisme I confess the addition wicked and abominable and yet no worse haply nor so bad as the Cross which you received and used for that serves to blesse or rather conjure all the rest and is honored with Divine honour and an holie daie appointed for it And yet I must tell you that with one consent you allow of this Sacrament administred by the Papists who do not administer it but with these additions to be a true Sacrament And you hold that those who were baptized by Papists are not to be rebaptized Pr. For my part I have cast off these corruptions and am constant to those principles tending to Reformation which others my Reverend Brethren of the Clergie have approved of and I am now about to set up the Government of Christ in my Parish Ph. I fully understand your designe you and your fellowes intend the old but not the oldest way of pretended Reformation wherein you shuffle and cut as fast as Hocus Pocus and your proceedings are so ridiculous that everie indifferent capacitie hath light enough through your figleaves to see your nakedness Pr. Wherein are we guiltie of such shufling or why are we so ridiculous Ph. In your proceedings for upholding your Parishes you pretend one thing viz. Reformation but your end and designe is to avoid the danger of loosing your Livings in case the Parishes should be dissolved Pr. I know nothing we do for which we can be justly censured we continue our preaching and do endeavour to settle Presbyterian Government according to Gods word Ph. For your preaching I earnestly desire you may sincerely applie your selves to it for that probably may do some good but for your other fetches and devices they savour more of Politicks then Religion squared by Gods word Pr. What Policie can there be in setling the Presbyterian Government with the Classes and Synods we settle nothing but what we are willing likewise to submit unto and to be judged by as well as the people Ph. Let the Government be what it will so your Livings and estates may be secured it s no great matter if the Parlament please but to declare that all your Parishes are visible Churches that you may hold them intire and the people be inforced to pay you all your Tithes Oblations obventions Mortuaries and other dues you will be satisfied and wait for further Reformation when it may stand with your honour and profit And upon that condition you will submit to the present Government of the Common-wealth But if your interest in these things be interrupted or in danger you know no other way to secure them but by setling this Government And this is the mark at which you shoot take but a view of those places your own Parish for one where the Elders are chosen do they serve for anie thing but Cyphers or do you and they act anie thing towards Reformation but meerly to this end and purpose Pr. I do confess if the Churches were equall or independent so there were Government as well in Church as Common-wealth and other things in order it might be well And where the Elders are chosen if Reformation go not on it is because the Elders refuse to act or joyne with the Minister Ph. I confess I know some nominated for Elders who make scruple to joyne with you in your business haply because they have found out your deceit which is meerly to make a shew of Reformation but your chief end is the securing your Livings Pr. That is not the cause of their refusal it is because the Parlament doth not arme them with power to execute their Offices and compell obedience to their injunctions as is fit for Ecclesiastical Magistrates Ph. If your proceedings were of God you would not need the secular Power to compel to obedience such as are within the Church and for those which are without you have nothing to do with them The censures of the Church are Gods Ordinance for that end and are most effectual But for that compulsive power you speak of it savours of the Tyrannie of Antichrist and so doth your title of Ecclesiastical Magistrate which title I have not heard