had any Prisons in which to keep men against their will and every man were noâ— free to leave us when he pleases as I suppose few would stay who should find themselves so deluded 'T is likely you may know some pray enquire of them whether they have more obtruded on them after they came to us than they were made acquainted with before Here is that Authors affirmation and my denyal believe neither of us but satisfie your self of those who can speak of their own knowledge N. I am glad to perceive the breach is not altogether so wide as some imagine but yet there is one reason which makes me despair of any good And that is because you are and must be always Enemies to the State Believe me our Church will no more harbor Traytors than Hippocrites P. Enemies to the state and Traitors God forbid N. Be not offended at the harshness of my Language which I use not for malice but to speak properly and call things by their own names 'T is not tâ—at I charge you with actual Treason but with Doctrines which wiâ—l make you traytors when ever they be put in practise And in my opinion there is not much difference betwixt an actual Traytor and one who is ready to be so as soon as there is occasion P. Truely I think there is not F. If you think so I do not see how you can be excused That power which the Pope claims to depose Kings and dâ—â—pose of Kingdoms is so destructive to the safety of Princes and qâ—iet of Kingdoms that you must needs see you cannot be good Subjects while you believe it Neither can you be Papists if you believe it not The Pope will no more endure you not to hold it than States can be safe where you do P. This is a Topick which never fails when any one has a mind to declaim against Papists It has been often objecteâ— and as often answered Since you oblige me to speak of it let me tell you you are wonderfully out in your apprehension of things If the Pope should break wâ—th all who believe noâ— that Power in him he would quickly have but a thin Communion I am yet to learn the naâ—e and situation of that Counâ—ry which belieâ—es it F. How of that Country As if it were not beleev'd in all Countrys of your Communion And that we may not doubt of it Bellarmine against Barclay produces writers of all Countrys who maintain it I think he musters them up to 72 but sure they are not like the Disciples butonly in number P. Bellarmine had undertaken to maintain that position and makes as good a shew as he can From the beginning of the world or rather from Gregory 7th who is his first man he has found out the number you mention and others cite twice as many agâ—â—nst â—iâ— some the very same alledgâ—d by him How pertinâ—ntly on either sidâ— we cannot now examine But I never thâ—â—â—ht of denying those Doctrines may be found in Books I deny there is any Nation to be found which believe them Authors mâ—y â—â—ite and yet find few who give credit to what they say If we would know what people believe we must consider what they do not what Scholars write For let them write upon what motives they will people certainly act according as they are perswaded Now to come to particulars there are few Nations where the Neighbourhood gave opportunity but have at some time or other been at open enmity with the Pope The Spaniards who are thought the most devoted to him have taken hâ—m Prisoner The Dâ—ke of Atva himself commanded an Army against him and forc'd him to his terms of Peace The Venetians not to mention other breaches were so resolute in their contest with Paul 5th that it came to an Interdict And they neither obeyed it nor would be brought by any sollicitation of powerful Mediators to accept of absolution Other Princes of Italy have been at wars with him and that lately in the times of Vrban the 8 h. and Innocent the 10th Of the French we shall speak by and by but these have had as many and as great contrasts with him as any other Which of all these Princes has been deserted by his Subjects or found them less ready to stand by them against the Pope than against anothâ—r man Had they indeed believed aright in the Pope to depâ—â—e Princes and dispose of Kingdoms they must needs taken his part and left their own Princes defenceless But you see no such thing has happened and may therefore certainly conclude they believe no such power The pretence of it may be sometimes used to colour an unjustifiable action when people can get no better but I am confident there is no Prince or people in the world who truely believe it F. Truely I know not what to say to you what you alledge is manifest and knoâ—n to the world though I did not reflâ—ct on it before But how comes it that Doctrines so little believ'd are so openly maintain'd and so maintain'd that they are alltogether in vogue and the contrary hardly find maintainers P. The contrary Doctrine never wants maintainers when there is occasion neither are they the less numerous or the less considerable for making the less noise whereof the reason is the eagerness with which the Pope espouses an opinion so favourable to him which hinders us from being willing to do any thing which we think he would take ill And so we let people talk as they please till there be a necessity of declaring plainly what we think And then it plainly appears that the sence of the world is very different from the thoughts of those writers how much soever they be cryed up Neither are the maintainers even among writers so few as you imagine I am sure in our Nation there have been more Catholick Writers against it than for it Thirteen eminent men subscribed a loyal profession to Queen Elizabeth even alter the Bull of Pius the 5th came oâ—t to whom sayes Widdrington thrice thirteen would willingly have been added had they not been prevented by the sudden publication of that profession And when Campian Sherwin and some others gave evasions instead of answers to the Questions about the Power of the Pope and Queen one Iohn Bishop a man devoted to the See of Rome says Mr. Cambden wrote against them and foundly proved that that constitution of the Lateran Council obtruded under that name upon which the whole authority of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance and deposing Princes is founded is no other than a Decree of Pope Innocent the 3d. and was never admitted in England Yea that the said Council was no Council at all nor was any thing at all there decreed by the Fathers F. But why do Princes permit the course of such Doctrines which cannot but be dangerous if ever the people should come to be perswaded of them as if they go on uncheckt 't is like enough they
A CONFERENCE BETWEEN Two Protestants AND A PAPIST Occasion'd by the Late Seasonable Discourse Anno Dom. 1673. To the Reader AS Chance is sometimes more lucky than Design an unexpected Reâ—contre has discovered more to me of the Inside of Papists than I could ever learn by Enquiry I carried a Friend oâ— mine to a Coffee-house with no farther thoughts than to divert my self for half an hour and oblige him by â—n entertainment of little expense In a corner of â—he Room I observ'd a Papist one whom I had long known alone and pensive entertaining himself with his thoughts and pipe and little minding the rest of the Company which was all seated some distance from him The convenience of the place invited us to sit down by him and there happen'd a discourse betwixt us which I here communicate to you as near as I can in the 〈◊〉 words in which it past at least I am confident not differing in substance for as soon as we parted I went immediately home and writ it down and as my memory was then fresh and my attention had been great I believe I have omitted nothing which was material To avoid repetitions I will put an F. for my Friend a P. for the Papist and for my self an N. After the usual passages of civility were ended I began the Discourse in this manner A Conference c. N. I Am sorry to observe your pensiveness Will you permit me to guess at the cause and tell you I suspect the late Seasonable Discourse may have some share in it P. I was indeed thinking of that Book N. Truly I cannot blame your trouble That Gentleman has treated you something severely and if a Book which brings you so much shame bring you some sorrow too you may be pardoned P. I must confess I was very sorry to see that Book though for other reasons it may be than those which you imagine But why do you think it so shameful to us N. Why is it not a great shame to be such stiff Enemies â—s you are to so glorious a Church as the Church of England and such stiff maâ—ntainers of so stupid a Religion as yours is P. For my Religion this is no place to give account of it There are Books enough which treat of that Subject Only since you are acquainted with me I appeal to your self whether you do in earnest believe me so stupid as to be given to Idolatry or Superstiâ—ion or the belief of Stories as impossible as Amadis de Gaul or the Knight of the Sun which that Gentleman charges on us N. I must declare I think better of you But you cannot deny your eâ—â—â—â—ty to the Church of England P. I am â—aâ— from being an Enemie to it F. By your favour Sir your principles are so fitted to the greatness of your great Spiritual Monarch that you cannot be friends to any Church but â—is no not evâ—n of your own communion For you hold that nothing upon the matter can be done in matters oâ— Religion but what is done at Rome A Convocation not call'd by allowance from thence is thought but a Conventicle A Bishop cannot be made a Canonry a Rectory granted no Dispensation given no Ecclesiastical Authority exercâ—z'd but the Pope must be at one end I say nothing of our controversial Differences because I perceive you are not willing to meddle with them But 't is plain that while you hold thus all but Italians and those of the Popes Territories too must needs be back friends to the Churches of their Native Countreys Nay you are within a little of leaving no Churches to which you might be kind For what is a Church without Authority And if all Authority be in the Church of Rome she is the onely Church and all the rest but so many Parishes of her large Diocese so much the worse to be govern'd by how much they are farther distant from the onely true Bishop for the rest will have no more than the name P. How little do you understand how the world goes 'T is â—rue there are of my Religion who are possest with this fancy that unless the Bishop of Rome intervene almost in every thing nothing is well done And this I believe happens in a great measure from a pâ—ece of Policie the greatest that ever has been practised in that Court. At least I have been inform'd so by one who assured me he learn'd so much at Rome it self and that from a Regular too And that is the Exemptions which have been granted to most Regulars and many Chapters which have been exempted to a great degree from the Jurisdiction of their respective Bishops and subjected immediately to the Pope These Communities thus exempted are obliged for their own Interest and to preseâ—ve the â—dvantages which they enjoy by exemption to magnifie the Power which exempted them By which means both they themselves are brought to depend on the Pope alone and Bishops too who all dependance on them being thus taken away are left weak and defenseless and unable to maintain their due Authority I cannot tell whether the Jealousies of Princes peradvâ—nture suspicious of too much Authority in their Subjects have noâ— much contributed to this effâ—ct For I see that in some places they have made particular agreements with the Pope against the inclinations and even Remonstrances of their own people according to which their Bishops are forced to regulate themselves However it be this Paramount Omnipotent if I may so call it Authority of the Bâ—shop of Rome has been cry'd up so much and so long and by so many and those so much concern'd though thought disinteressed by the vulgar that it has now gain'd a great vogue and passes among those who look not into things for unqâ—estionable And yet the vogue is much less now than heretofore before our Countreyman Occam began to write in behalf of Lewis of Bavaria Notwithstanding still there are who think the cry greater than the wool and even complain and wish for remedy That Author and you after him look upon this as part of my Religion when alas how many are there of my Religion who look upon it as a grievance They were of my Religion who made the several Sâ—atures of Provisors and Praemunire which alone would serve for answer to a good parâ— of the Book in question However they declare there very plainly that the interposing of the Court of Rome and this even in presentments to Benefices or at least cognâ—â—â—nce of the Plea translation of Bishopâ— c. which be matters Spiritual enough are clearly against the Kingâ— Crown and his Regality used and approved of the time of all his Progenitors That the Crown of England hath been so free at all times that it hath been in no Earthly Subjection but immediately subject to God in all things touching the regality of the same and to none other And God defend say they it should be submitted to the Pope as by the
in his necessities help a Legat of the Apostolic See both going and coming I will endeavour to preserve defend increase and promote the Rights Honours Privileges and Authority of the H. Rom. Church our Lord the Pope and his aforesaid Successors I will not communicate in counsel deed or treaty in which any thing sinister and prejudicial to their Person Right Honour State and Power shall be design'd against our said Lord by the Rom. Church And if I shall know any such thing to be treated or endeavoured I will hinder it to my power and as soon as ever I can will acquaint our said 〈◊〉 therewith or some body else by whom it may come to his knowledge I will 〈◊〉 self observe and cause to be observ'd by others the Rules of the H. Fathers the Decrees Ordinances or Dispositions Reservations Provisions and Apostolical commands I will to my power prosecute and impugn Hereticks Schismaticks and Rebels to our said Lord and his said Successors If I be call'd to a Synod I will come unless I be hindred by a canonical impediment Every three years I will personally visit the shrines of the Apostles and render account to our Lord and his Successors aforesaid of my whole pastoral Office and of all things any way belonging to the state of my Church the discipline of the Clergy and People and the health of Souls entrusted to my charge and on the other side will humbly receive and most diligently perform the Apostolical commands If I be detained by a lawful impediment I will fulfill all aforesaid by a special Messenger having a special Mandate to that purpose chosen from the bosom of my Chapter or some other Ecclesiastical Dignitary or otherwise having some Ecclesiastical Personage or in default of such by some Priest of my Diocess and if there be none of my Clergy by some other Priest Secular or Regular of approved virtue Religion fully instructed in all matters aforesaid And of such impediment I will make lawfull proof to be sent by my said Messenger to the Cardinal presiding proponertâ—m in the Congregation of the Sacred Council I will not sell nor give nor pawn nor mortgage anew infeudabo nor alienate in any manner the Possessions belonging to my Table even with the consent of the Chapter of my Church without consulting the Bishop of Rome And if I do proceed to any alienation I consent â—o ipso to incur the penalties contain'd in a certain Constitution set forth of this matter So help me God and these H. Ghospels of God F. Well Sir what say you to it P. I say I would not take it for the best Bishoprick in Christendom As far as I can judg it is direct Praeâ—â—nire and perhaps worse But pray Sir where did you find it Those Princes who are of the Popes communion are careful enough of their Authority It seems impossible they should be ignorant of it and incredible they shou'd permit their Subjects to take it I cannot believe it is in use wherever you found it F. I have never been present at the consecration of any of your Bishops to say of my own knowledg that it is taken But I know it is prescribed in your Pontifical to be taken And I suppose your Bishops are consecrated according to the prescriptions of your Pontifical P. Really Sir you tell me news and such as I dare answer there is not on one at least Lay Catholick in ten thousand that ever heard of it I will not question the truth of what you â—ay because I do not mistrust you and besides 't is an easie matter when I can meet with a Pontifical to see what is there But I must still remain of my former opinion that 't is not generally in use though perhaps it may be in the Popes own territories The Authority of the Pontifical is no proof as to that point For other countreys have their Pontificals and Liturgies of their own framing and that may be in the Roman Pontifical which perhaps is no where else That 't is of no ancient standing is clear by the Oath it self which mentions the Congregation of the Sacred Council and every body knows that that Congregation was erected since the Council of Trent and every body knows too thaâ— since that time Popes have not had that credit in the world that they could impose Oaths upon the Subjects of other Princes without the consent of those Princes For England in particular besides the Statutes beforementioned which in my opinion quash it sufficiently there is mention in Sir Ed Cook in his 3 book of Institutes tit Praemuniâ—e of a renunciation used even from the times of Ed. 1. and Ed. 2 in these words I renounce all the words comprised in the Popes Bull to me made of the Bishoprick of A which â—e contrary or prejudicial to the King our Soveraign Lord and to his crown And of that I put my self humbly in his Grace praying to have restitution of the temporalities of my Church This renunciation must needs be a great deal more ancient than this Oath and since our Catholick Ancestors thought fit to renounce all words inserted in Bulls prejudicial though to a less degree than this Oath However it be 't is a clear case that being made by the Pope none can be more obliged to take it than to receive his other Decrees which as we have discourst already no Nation is oblig'd to do but by free consent as far as they find them beneficial to themselves Wherefore as I said before allow us Ecclesiastical Ministers of whose fidelity you may be assured and we will be careful enough you may be sure not to run rashly and caâ—slesly into Praemunires or if we do the Pope himself cannot blame you if you severely execute those Laws which have been made even by Catholicks But if you force us to take them upon such terms as we can get them we are blameless if things happen which we cannot avoid F. Why but you cannot avoid this For let us allow you what liberty we will the Pope never make you Bishops on other terms and you believe Bishops cannot be made but by him or authority derived from him P. I have already told you I do not believe Bishops are made any where upon those terms except perhaps in his own territories but I am very certain they need not be any where and am farther very certain that in England they should not be if you would allow us the liberty of acting in the concerns of Religion openly and without such fear of the Laws that many times we do we know not what our selves Believe me the Pope is too wise to give occasion to examin whether Bâ—shops may not be made without his intervening For 't is well known that Bishops were made and governed the Church a long time and he never medled in the business And at this day there are who will by no means use the ordinary stile Dei Aposholica