g._n tell_v dr._n st._n the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n do_v for_o by_o virtue_n of_o this_o charge_n he_o say_v the_o church_n of_o england_n remain_v deprive_v of_o the_o lawful_a authority_n to_o use_v and_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n and_o consequent_o the_o authority_n of_o govern_v preach_a and_o adminstr_v the_o sacrament_n which_o those_o of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n challenge_n to_o themselves_o as_o derive_v from_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n can_v be_v no_o true_a and_o lawful_a jurisdiction_n but_o usurp_v and_o antichristian_a etc._n this_o i_o assure_v you_o t._n g._n lay_n great_a weight_n upon_o in_o his_o late_a dialogue_n and_o charge_v he_o with_o ignorance_n and_o tergiversation_n and_o other_o hard_a word_n about_o it_o so_o that_o i_o have_v a_o mind_n to_o hear_v what_o you_o can_v say_v in_o his_o defence_n about_o this_o before_o i_o touch_v upon_o the_o other_o consequence_n which_o he_o urge_v upon_o this_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n p._n d._n with_o all_o my_o heart_n there_o be_v two_o thing_n wherein_o the_o force_n of_o t._n g.'s_n argument_n lie_v 1._o that_o which_o he_o call_v his_o undeniable_a maxim_n of_o reason_n viz._n that_o no_o man_n can_v give_v to_o another_o that_o which_o he_o have_v not_o himself_o 2._o that_o idolatry_n lay_v man_n under_o the_o apostle_n excommunication_n and_o therefore_o be_v deprive_v of_o all_o lawful_a authority_n to_o use_v or_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n in_o answer_n to_o these_o two_o thing_n be_v already_o prove_v by_o dr._n st._n 1._o that_o the_o sin_n of_o the_o giver_n do_v not_o hinder_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n 2._o that_o the_o christian_a church_n have_v allow_v the_o lawful_a authority_n of_o give_v and_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n in_o those_o who_o have_v be_v condemn_v for_o idolatry_n which_o he_o prove_v more_o brief_o in_o his_o preface_n and_o at_o large_a in_o his_o last_o book_n from_o the_o case_n of_o the_o arian_n bishop_n and_o now_o let_v any_o one_o judge_n whether_o t._n g._n have_v any_o cause_n to_o hector_n about_o this_o matter_n for_o so_o many_o page_n together_o as_o though_o he_o have_v either_o not_o understand_v or_o not_o take_v notice_n of_o the_o force_n of_o his_o argument_n concern_v his_o undeniable_a maxim_n of_o reason_n he_o observe_v that_o it_o be_v the_o very_a argument_n use_v by_o the_o donatist_n to_o prove_v the_o nullity_n of_o baptism_n among_o heretic_n and_o that_o the_o answer_v give_v by_o the_o church_n be_v that_o the_o instrument_n be_v not_o the_o giver_n but_o the_o first_o institutor_n and_o if_o the_o minister_n keep_v to_o the_o institution_n the_o grace_n of_o the_o sacrament_n may_v be_v convey_v though_o he_o have_v it_o not_o himself_o this_o dr._n st._n think_v very_o pertinent_a to_o show_v that_o where_o power_n and_o authority_n be_v convey_v by_o man_n only_o as_o instrument_n the_o particular_a default_n of_o such_o person_n as_o heresy_n or_o idolatry_n do_v not_o hinder_v the_o derivation_n of_o that_o power_n or_o authority_n to_o they_o and_o this_o he_o prove_v to_o be_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o christian_a church_n in_o the_o ordination_n of_o heretic_n it_o be_v true_a he_o do_v not_o then_o speak_v to_o authority_n so_o much_o as_o to_o power_n nor_o to_o jurisdiction_n as_o it_o be_v call_v by_o the_o school_n divine_v so_o much_o as_o to_o the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n but_o he_o proceed_v upon_o a_o parity_n of_o reason_n in_o both_o case_n and_o can_v not_o imagine_v that_o any_o person_n will_v suppose_v the_o christian_a church_n will_v allow_v a_o validity_n of_o order_n without_o lawful_a authority_n to_o use_v and_o exercise_v those_o order_n for_o in_o all_o the_o instance_n produce_v by_o he_o from_o the_o second_o council_n of_o nice_a wherein_o undeniable_a example_n be_v bring_v of_o ordination_n of_o heretic_n allow_v by_o the_o ancient_a father_n and_o council_n even_o those_o of_o nice_a ephesus_n and_o chalcedon_n it_o be_v apparent_a that_o their_o authority_n to_o use_v and_o exercise_v their_o power_n of_o order_n be_v allow_v as_o well_o as_o their_o ordination_n for_o he_o there_o show_v that_o anatolius_n the_o precedent_n of_o the_o four_o council_n be_v ordain_v by_o dioscorus_n in_o the_o presence_n of_o eutyches_n that_o many_o of_o the_o bishop_n who_o sit_v in_o the_o six_o council_n be_v ordain_v by_o sergius_n pyrrhus_n paulus_n and_o petrus_n who_o in_o that_o council_n be_v declare_v heretic_n and_o do_v t._n g._n in_o earnest_n think_v this_o do_v not_o prove_v they_o have_v lawful_a authority_n what_o become_v then_o of_o the_o authority_n of_o these_o council_n nay_o of_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n itself_o when_o tarasius_n there_o say_v as_o dr._n st._n produce_v he_o they_o have_v no_o other_o ordination_n for_o fifty_o year_n together_o do_v this_o prove_v either_o dr._n st.'s_n ignorance_n or_o tergiversation_n be_v not_o this_o rather_o plain_a and_o convince_a evidence_n that_o the_o christian_a church_n do_v allow_v not_o bare_o the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n by_o heretic_n but_o the_o lawful_a authority_n to_o use_v and_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n which_o he_o likewise_o prove_v by_o the_o greek_a ordination_n allow_v by_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n by_o which_o he_o do_v not_o mean_v the_o validity_n of_o the_o bare_a order_n but_o all_o that_o power_n and_o authority_n which_o be_v consequent_a upon_o they_o for_o can_v any_o man_n be_v so_o senseless_a to_o think_v that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n only_o allow_v the_o sacrament_n of_o order_n among_o the_o greek_n without_o any_o authority_n to_o excommunicate_v or_o absolve_v what_o mean_v then_o these_o horrible_a clamour_n by_o tg_n of_o dr._n st.'s_n ignorance_n intolerable_a mistake_n shameful_a error_n tergiversation_n and_o what_o not_o because_o he_o speak_v only_o to_o the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n and_o not_o to_o the_o lawful_a authority_n of_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n whereas_o the_o contrary_a appear_v by_o that_o very_a preface_n about_o which_o these_o outcry_n be_v make_v by_o e._n w._n and_o t._n g._n what_o ingenuity_n be_v to_o be_v expect_v from_o these_o man_n who_o deny_v that_o which_o they_o can_v but_o see_v r._n p._n but_o t._n g._n give_v this_o for_o a_o taste_n 132._o not_o only_o what_o candour_n and_o sincerity_n but_o what_o skill_n in_o church-affair_n you_o be_v to_o expect_v in_o the_o rest_n from_o dr._n st._n which_o sure_o he_o will_v never_o have_v do_v if_o he_o have_v speak_v to_o the_o point_n p._n d._n you_o may_v think_v as_o you_o please_v of_o he_o i_o only_o tell_v you_o the_o matter_n of_o fact_n and_o then_o do_v you_o judge_v where_o the_o candour_n and_o sincerity_n where_o the_o skill_n in_o church_n affair_n lie_v r._n p._n but_o be_v it_o not_o a_o undeniable_a maxim_n that_o no_o man_n can_v give_v to_o another_o that_o which_o he_o have_v not_o himself_o and_o therefore_o it_o lie_v open_a to_o the_o conscience_n of_o every_o man_n that_o if_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v guilty_a of_o heresy_n much_o more_o if_o guilty_a of_o idolatry_n 134._o it_o fall_v under_o the_o apostle_n excommunication_n gal._n 1.8_o and_o so_o remain_v deprive_v of_o the_o lawful_a authority_n to_o use_v and_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n and_o consequent_o the_o authority_n of_o govern_v preach_a etc._n etc._n this_o you_o see_v bid_v fair_a towards_o the_o subversion_n of_o all_o lawful_a authority_n in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n if_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v guilty_a of_o idolatry_n when_o the_o schism_n begin_v because_o excommunicate_v person_n be_v deprive_v of_o all_o lawful_a authority_n themselves_o can_v give_v none_o to_o other_o and_o if_o those_o other_o take_v any_o upon_o they_o it_o must_v be_v usurp_v and_o unlawful_a p._n d._n this_o be_v the_o terrible_a argument_n which_o t._n g._n produce_v again_o in_o triumph_n as_o though_o nothing_o be_v able_a to_o stand_v before_o it_o and_o yet_o in_o my_o mind_n t._n g._n himself_o have_v mighty_o weaken_v it_o by_o yield_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n make_v by_o heretic_n or_o idolater_n for_o if_o no_o man_n can_v give_v that_o which_o he_o have_v not_o how_o can_v those_o give_v power_n and_o authority_n who_o have_v none_o but_o the_o power_n of_o order_n do_v necessary_o carry_v authority_n along_o with_o it_o for_o it_o be_v part_n of_o the_o form_n of_o order_n in_o the_o roman_a church_n accipe_fw-la spiritum_fw-la sanctum_fw-la 4._o quorum_fw-la remiseritis_fw-la etc._n etc._n so_o that_o a_o power_n to_o excommunicate_v and_o absolve_v be_v give_v by_o virtue_n of_o the_o very_a form_n of_o order_n and_o your_o divine_n say_v the_o form_n be_v not_o complete_a without_o it_o but_o then_o i_o pray_v resolve_v i_o these_o question_n
be_v not_o a_o power_n to_o excommunicate_v and_o absolve_v a_o part_n of_o that_o jurisdiction_n which_o t._n g._n do_v distinguish_v from_o the_o bare_a power_n of_o order_n r._n p._n yes_o without_o doubt_n p._n d._n be_v not_o this_o power_n give_v by_o the_o very_a form_n of_o order_n in_o your_o church_n r._n p._n yes_o but_o what_o then_o p._n d._n do_v not_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n say_v the_o character_n be_v imprint_v upon_o say_v those_o word_n accipe_fw-la spiritum_fw-la sanctum_fw-la etc._n etc._n r._n p._n what_o will_v you_o be_v at_o p._n d._n be_v the_o character_n of_o order_n give_v by_o word_n that_o signify_v nothing_o and_o carry_v no_o effect_n along_o with_o they_o r._n p._n no_o certain_o p._n d._n then_o these_o word_n have_v their_o effect_n upon_o every_o man_n that_o have_v the_o power_n of_o order_n r._n p._n and_o what_o then_o p._n d._n then_o every_o one_o who_o have_v the_o power_n of_o order_n have_v the_o power_n to_o excommunicate_v and_o absolve_v r._n p._n be_v it_o so_o p._n d._n but_o the_o power_n to_o excommunicate_v and_o absolve_v be_v a_o part_n of_o jurisdiction_n therefore_o a_o power_n of_o order_n carry_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n along_o with_o it_o and_o consequent_o valid_a ordination_n must_v suppose_v lawful_a authority_n to_o use_v and_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o excommunication_n and_o absolution_n r._n p._n in_o the_o name_n of_o t._n g._n i_o deny_v that_o p._n d._n hold_v a_o little_a you_o be_v deny_v the_o conclusion_n consider_v again_o what_o you_o deny_v do_v you_o deny_v this_o power_n to_o be_v give_v in_o your_o order_n r._n p._n no._n p._n d._n do_v you_o deny_v this_o power_n to_o be_v part_n of_o jurisdiction_n r._n p._n no._n p._n d._n then_o this_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v give_v wherever_o the_o order_n be_v valid_a r._n p._n this_o can_v be_v for_o t._n g._n complain_v over_o and_o over_o of_o dr._n st.'s_n ignorance_n wilful_a and_o intolerable_a mistake_n unbecoming_a a_o writer_n of_o controversy_n for_o not_o distinguish_v between_o the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n and_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n which_o he_o will_v never_o have_v do_v if_o one_o have_v carry_v the_o other_o along_o with_o it_o p._n d._n do_v not_o tell_v i_o what_o t.g._n will_v or_o will_v not_o have_v do_v i_o tell_v you_o what_o he_o have_v do_v and_o judge_v you_o now_o with_o what_o advantage_n to_o himself_o r._n p._n but_o t._n g._n be_v again_o up_o with_o his_o undeniable_a maxim_n that_o none_o can_v give_v to_o another_o what_o he_o have_v not_o himself_o 143._o and_o this_o he_o think_v will_v carry_v he_o through_o all_o p._n d._n i_o tell_v you_o that_o very_a maxim_n overthrow_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n as_o he_o apply_v it_o for_o if_o the_o validity_n of_o order_n do_v suppose_v authority_n to_o be_v convey_v and_o there_o can_v be_v no_o such_o authority_n give_v in_o the_o case_n of_o idolatry_n then_o the_o power_n of_o order_n be_v take_v away_o as_o well_o as_o jurisdiction_n beside_o be_v not_o the_o power_n of_o give_v order_n a_o part_n of_o that_o lawful_a authority_n which_o belong_v to_o bishop_n r._n p._n i_o do_v not_o understand_v you_o p._n d._n can_v any_o man_n give_v order_n without_o a_o power_n to_o do_v it_o r._n p._n no._n p._n d._n be_v not_o that_o power_n a_o part_n of_o episcopal_a authority_n r._n p._n yes_o p._n d._n how_o then_o can_v there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o give_v order_n without_o authority_n r._n p._n now_o you_o show_v your_o ignorance_n do_v not_o you_o know_v that_o there_o be_v a_o indelible_a character_n imprint_v in_o the_o soul_n by_o the_o power_n of_o order_n which_o no_o act_n of_o the_o church_n can_v hinder_v a_o bishop_n from_o give_v in_o the_o sacrament_n of_o order_n or_o a_o priest_n from_o receive_v but_o jurisdiction_n be_v quite_o another_o thing_n that_o be_v derive_v from_o the_o church_n or_o rather_o from_o the_o pope_n who_o be_v the_o fountain_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o this_o may_v be_v suspend_v or_o take_v away_o p._n d._n i_o cry_v you_o mercy_n sir_n i_o be_v not_o breed_v up_o in_o your_o school_n this_o may_v be_v currant_n doctrine_n with_o you_o but_o i_o assure_v you_o i_o find_v no_o footstep_n of_o it_o either_o in_o scripture_n or_o father_n and_o if_o i_o be_v not_o much_o misinform_v some_o of_o your_o great_a divine_n be_v of_o my_o mind_n i_o see_v all_o this_o outcry_n of_o t._n g.'s_n concern_v dr._n st._n be_v ignorance_n come_v at_o last_o to_o this_o mystery_n of_o the_o indelible_a character_n imprint_v in_o the_o soul_n by_o the_o sacrament_n of_o order_n which_o make_v ordination_n to_o be_v valid_a but_o give_v no_o authority_n or_o jurisdiction_n i_o pray_v make_v i_o a_o little_a better_o acquaint_v with_o this_o character_n for_o at_o present_a i_o can_v neither_o read_v nor_o understand_v it_o r._n p._n yes_o yes_o this_o you_o will_v be_v always_o at_o to_o make_v we_o explain_v our_o school-notion_n for_o you_o to_o fleer_v and_o to_o mock_v at_o they_o p.d._n but_o this_o i_o perceive_v be_v very_o material_a to_o prevent_v intolerable_a error_n and_o mistake_n and_o for_o all_o that_o you_o know_v i_o may_v come_v to_o be_v a_o writer_n of_o controversy_n and_o then_o i_o will_v not_o be_v hoot_v at_o for_o my_o ignorance_n nor_o have_v the_o boy_n point_v at_o i_o in_o the_o street_n and_o say_v there_o go_v a_o man_n that_o do_v not_o understand_v the_o character_n which_o in_o my_o mind_n will_v sound_v as_o ill_o as_o say_v there_o go_v one_o that_o can_v read_v his_o a._n b._n c._n i_o beseech_v you_o sir_n tell_v i_o what_o this_o indelible_a character_n be_v for_o to_o tell_v you_o truth_n i_o have_v hear_v of_o it_o before_o but_o never_o meet_v with_o one_o who_o can_v tell_v what_o it_o be_v r._n p._n yes_o that_o be_v it_o you_o will_v not_o believe_v a_o thing_n unless_o one_o can_v tell_v you_o what_o it_o be_v why_o it_o be_v a_o mark_n or_o a_o seal_n imprint_v in_o the_o soul_n by_o the_o sacrament_n of_o order_n that_o can_v never_o be_v blot_v out_o and_o therefore_o ordination_n be_v valid_a because_o if_o re-ordination_a be_v allow_v one_o character_n will_v be_v put_v upon_o another_o and_o so_o the_o first_o will_v be_v blot_v out_o do_v not_o you_o understand_v it_o now_o p._n d._n i_o suppose_v altogether_o as_o well_o as_o you_o be_v it_o a_o physical_a kind_n of_o thing_n just_a like_o the_o stroke_n of_o a_o pen_n upon_o paper_n or_o rather_o as_o the_o grave_v of_o a_o carver_n upon_o stone_n so_o artificial_o do_v that_o it_o can_v never_o be_v take_v out_o while_o it_o continue_v whole_a or_o be_v it_o only_o a_o moral_a relative_a thing_n depend_v upon_o divine_a institution_n and_o only_o on_o the_o account_n of_o distinction_n call_v a_o character_n r._n p._n without_o doubt_v it_o be_v a_o absolute_a thing_n but_o whether_o to_o call_v it_o a_o habit_n or_o a_o power_n whether_o it_o be_v a_o quality_n of_o the_o first_o or_o the_o second_o or_o the_o three_o or_o four_o kind_n that_o our_o divine_n be_v not_o agree_v upon_o and_o some_o think_v it_o be_v a_o new_a kind_n of_o quality_n nor_o whether_o it_o be_v imprint_v on_o the_o essence_n or_o power_n of_o the_o soul_n and_o if_o in_o the_o faculty_n whether_o in_o the_o understanding_n or_o will_n but_o it_o be_v enough_o for_o we_o to_o believe_v that_o there_o be_v real_o such_o a_o absolute_a indelible_a character_n imprint_v on_o the_o soul_n from_o whence_o that_o sacrament_n can_v never_o be_v reiterated_a which_o do_v imprint_v a_o character_n as_o that_o of_o order_n do_v p._n d._n i_o be_o just_a as_o wise_a by_o all_o this_o account_n as_o i_o be_v before_o for_o the_o only_a reason_n of_o the_o point_n be_v it_o must_v needs_o be_v so_o r._n p._n yes_o the_o church_n have_v declare_v it_o in_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n and_o that_o be_v instead_o of_o all_o reason_n to_o we_o p._n d._n but_o what_o be_v this_o to_o dr._n st._n must_v he_o be_v upbraid_v with_o ignorance_n error_n and_o tergiversation_n because_o he_o do_v not_o believe_v the_o indelible_a character_n on_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n r._n p._n no_o that_o be_v not_o the_o thing_n but_o because_o he_o do_v not_o understand_v the_o difference_n between_o the_o power_n of_o order_n and_o jurisdiction_n p._n d._n be_v you_o sure_a of_o that_o if_o i_o do_v not_o forget_v he_o have_v this_o very_a distinction_n in_o that_o pestilent_a book_n call_v irenicum_fw-la which_o t._n g._n hit_v he_o in_o the_o tooth_n with_o on_o all_o occasion_n r._n p._n but_o he_o do_v not_o or_o will_v not_o understand_v it_o
here_o p._n d._n yes_o he_o know_v it_o well_o enough_o but_o he_o think_v if_o he_o prove_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n he_o prove_v the_o lawfulness_n of_o authority_n and_o jurisdiction_n because_o the_o give_a order_n be_v part_n of_o church_n authority_n and_o authority_n be_v receive_v in_o take_v order_n and_o the_o church_n never_o allow_v one_o but_o it_o allow_v the_o other_o also_o if_o you_o have_v any_o thing_n more_o to_o say_v about_o this_o matter_n i_o be_o willing_a to_o hear_v you_o but_o as_o yet_o i_o see_v no_o reason_n for_o t._n g.'s_n clamour_n about_o such_o a_o mistake_n in_o dr._n st._n for_o i_o think_v the_o mistake_n lie_v near_a home_n r._n p._n but_o e._n w._n public_o reprove_v dr._n st._n for_o this_o mistake_n and_o yet_o after_o that_o he_o go_v on_o to_o confirm_v his_o former_a answer_n with_o new_a proof_n and_o testimony_n etc._n that_o bishop_n ordain_v by_o idolater_n be_v esteem_v valid_o ordain_v and_o do_v not_o speak_v one_o word_n in_o answer_n to_o what_o be_v object_v by_o t._n g._n viz._n that_o the_o english_a bishop_n must_v want_v lawful_a authority_n to_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n if_o their_o first_o ordainer_n be_v idolater_n and_o e._n w._n call_v it_o a_o intolerable_a mistake_n and_o t._n g._n say_v he_o have_v hear_v he_o be_v a_o main_a man_n esteem_v for_o his_o learning_n after_o repeat_v the_o word_n of_o e._n w._n at_o length_n t._n g._n very_o mild_o add_v 155._o as_o if_o he_o be_v whole_o insensible_a of_o the_o gross_a and_o intolerable_a error_n e._n w._n tax_v he_o with_o he_o run_v again_o into_o the_o same_o shameful_a mistake_n but_o say_v t._n g._n be_v the_o power_n of_o give_v order_n and_o lawful_a authority_n to_o give_v they_o 157._o so_o essential_o link_v to_o each_o other_o that_o they_o can_v be_v separate_v may_v not_o a_o bishop_n or_o priest_n remain_v so_o be_v deprive_v of_o all_o lawful_a authority_n to_o exercise_v their_o function_n for_o have_v fall_v into_o heresy_n or_o idolatry_n and_o if_o they_o have_v none_o themselves_o can_v they_o give_v it_o to_o other_o p._n d._n on_o who_o side_n the_o intolerable_a mistake_n lie_v will_v be_v best_a see_v by_o examine_v the_o force_n of_o what_o t._n g._n say_v as_o to_o e._n w._n the_o matter_n be_v not_o great_a which_o lie_v i_o suppose_v in_o this_o that_o those_o who_o do_v fall_v into_o idolatry_n or_o heresy_n may_v ordain_v valid_o for_o say_v he_o from_o estiâ—s_n no_o crime_n or_o censure_v soever_o can_v hinder_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n by_o a_o bishop_n but_o he_o may_v be_v deprive_v of_o any_o lawful_a authority_n to_o do_v it_o and_o therefore_o can_v convey_v this_o lawful_a authority_n to_o other_o ordain_v by_o he_o from_o hence_o t._n g._n say_v no_o crime_n can_v hinder_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n but_o idolatry_n he_o say_v do_v ipso_fw-la facto_fw-la deprive_v bishop_n of_o the_o authority_n of_o exercise_v order_n or_o convey_v jurisdiction_n and_o therefore_o though_o the_o ordination_n of_o the_o bishop_n of_o england_n may_v be_v valid_a yet_o their_o jurisdiction_n can_v be_v lawful_a and_o so_o the_o foundation_n of_o their_o authority_n be_v subvert_v by_o the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n i_o hope_v you_o will_v allow_v this_o to_o be_v the_o force_n of_o all_o that_o t._n g._n say_v r._n p._n yes_o now_o you_o have_v hit_v upon_o his_o right_a meaning_n p._n d._n let_v we_o then_o consider_v more_o close_o on_o which_o side_n the_o mistake_n lie_v which_o will_v be_v discern_v by_o this_o whether_o we_o be_v to_o follow_v the_o modern_a school_n or_o the_o judgement_n of_o antiquity_n in_o this_o matter_n for_o dr._n st._n speak_v according_a to_o the_o sense_n and_o practice_n of_o antiquity_n and_o t._n g._n according_a to_o the_o modern_a notion_n and_o distinction_n of_o their_o school_n it_o be_v true_a their_o schoolman_n have_v so_o distinguish_v the_o power_n of_o order_n and_o jurisdiction_n that_o they_o make_v the_o one_o to_o depend_v upon_o a_o indelible_a unintelligible_a character_n which_o no_o crime_n can_v hinder_v have_v its_o valid_a effect_n but_o that_o jurisdiction_n or_o the_o right_n of_o excommunication_n and_o absolution_n may_v be_v suspend_v or_o take_v away_o since_o the_o council_n of_o florence_n and_o trent_n this_o doctrine_n of_o the_o indelible_a character_n give_v in_o order_n be_v not_o to_o be_v dispute_v among_o they_o and_o therefore_o they_o hold_v the_o character_n to_o remain_v wherever_o order_n be_v receive_v in_o the_o due_a form_n but_o then_o they_o say_v this_o character_n be_v capable_a of_o such_o restraint_n by_o the_o power_n of_o the_o church_n that_o it_o remain_v like_o aristotle_n first_o matter_n a_o dull_a and_o unactive_a thing_n till_o the_o church_n give_v a_o new_a form_n to_o it_o and_o this_o they_o call_v the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n but_o that_o all_o this_o be_v new_a doctrine_n in_o the_o church_n and_o a_o late_a monkish_a invention_n will_v appear_v by_o these_o consideration_n 1._o how_o long_o it_o be_v before_o this_o doctrine_n be_v receive_v in_o the_o church_n by_o the_o confession_n of_o their_o own_o schoolman_n scotus_n and_o biel_n and_o cajetan_a 1._o no_o inconsiderable_a man_n in_o the_o roman_a church_n do_v confess_v that_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o character_n imprint_v in_o the_o soul_n can_v neither_o be_v prove_v from_o scripture_n nor_o father_n but_o only_o from_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n and_o that_o not_o very_o ancient_a neither_o 4._o and_o morinus_n take_v notice_n that_o it_o be_v not_o so_o much_o as_o mention_v by_o p._n lombard_n or_o hugo_n de_fw-fr sancto_fw-la victore_fw-la although_o they_o debate_v those_o very_a question_n which_o will_v have_v require_v their_o express_v it_o if_o they_o have_v know_v any_o thing_n of_o it_o 2._o how_o many_o of_o their_o schoolman_n who_o do_v acknowledge_v the_o character_n of_o priesthood_n yet_o make_v the_o power_n of_o order_n to_o belong_v to_o jurisdiction_n so_o albertus_n magnus_n and_o other_o cite_v by_o morinus_n but_o alex._n alensis_n carry_v this_o point_n so_o far_o that_o he_o say_v that_o because_o of_o the_o indelible_a character_n of_o priesthood_n the_o power_n can_v never_o be_v take_v from_o a_o priest_n but_o only_o the_o execution_n of_o it_o 2._o but_o in_o a_o bishop_n there_o be_v no_o new_a character_n imprint_v and_o therefore_o in_o the_o degrade_n he_o not_o only_o the_o execution_n but_o the_o power_n of_o give_v order_n be_v take_v away_o and_o scotus_n say_v if_o a_o bishop_n be_v excommunicate_v 3_o he_o lose_v the_o power_n of_o give_v order_n if_o episcopacy_n be_v not_o a_o distinct_a order_n as_o you_o know_v many_o of_o the_o schoolman_n hold_v and_o morinus_n grant_v 13._o that_o if_o episcopacy_n be_v not_o a_o distinct_a order_n but_o a_o large_a commission_n the_o power_n of_o bishop_n may_v be_v so_o limit_v by_o the_o church_n as_o not_o only_o to_o hinder_v they_o from_o a_o lawful_a authority_n but_o from_o a_o power_n of_o act_v so_o that_o what_o they_o do_v carry_v no_o validity_n along_o with_o it_o 3._o how_o many_o before_o the_o day_n of_o the_o schoolman_n be_v of_o opinion_n that_o the_o censure_n of_o the_o church_n do_v take_v away_o the_o power_n of_o order_n gratian_n hold_v it_o most_o agreeable_a to_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o father_n that_o a_o bishop_n degrade_v have_v no_o power_n to_o give_v order_n 97._o although_o he_o have_v to_o baptise_v only_o for_o s._n augustine_n sake_n he_o think_v they_o may_v distinguish_v between_o the_o power_n and_o the_o execution_n of_o it_o gul._n parisiensis_fw-la say_v that_o bishop_n depose_v can_v confer_v no_o order_n 7._o because_o the_o church_n have_v the_o same_o power_n in_o take_v away_o which_o it_o have_v in_o give_v and_o the_o intention_n of_o the_o church_n be_v to_o take_v away_o their_o power_n if_o what_o t._n g._n assert_n have_v be_v always_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o church_n i_o desire_v he_o to_o resolve_v i_o these_o question_n 1._o why_o pope_n lucius_n 3_o do_v re-ordain_a those_o who_o have_v be_v ordain_v by_o octavianus_n the_o antipope_n 2._o why_o vrban_n 2._o declare_v nezelon_n or_o wecilo_n a_o excommunicate_a bishop_n of_o mentz_n to_o have_v no_o power_n of_o give_v order_n and_o that_o upon_o t._n g.'s_n own_o maxim_n that_o which_o a_o man_n have_v not_o he_o can_v give_v to_o another_o because_o he_o be_v ordain_v by_o heretic_n 3._o why_o the_o synod_n of_o quintilinberg_n under_o greg._n 7._o declare_v all_o ordination_n to_o be_v null_a which_o be_v make_v by_o excommunicate_v bishop_n 4._o why_o leo_n 9_o in_o a_o synod_n void_v all_o simoniacal_a ordination_n 5._o why_o stephanus_n 6._o re-ordained_n those_o which_o be_v ordain_v by_o formosus_fw-la 6._o
why_o hincmarus_n re-ordained_n those_o who_o have_v be_v ordain_v by_o ebbo_n because_o he_o have_v be_v depose_v 7._o why_o stephanus_n 4._o re-ordained_n those_o who_o have_v receive_v order_n from_o pope_n constantine_n 8._o why_o the_o ordination_n make_v by_o photius_n be_v declare_v null_n to_o name_v no_o more_o if_o this_o have_v be_v always_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o christian_a church_n that_o the_o power_n of_o order_n be_v indelible_a but_o not_o that_o of_o jurisdiction_n i_o desire_v t._n g._n to_o give_v a_o answer_n to_o those_o question_n which_o i_o fear_v will_v involve_v several_a head_n of_o his_o church_n under_o that_o which_o he_o call_v in_o dr._n st._n a_o intolerable_a mistake_n do_v so_o many_o pope_n know_v no_o better_o this_o distinction_n between_o the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n and_o the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n i_o be_o sorry_a to_o see_v t._n g._n so_o magisterial_a and_o confident_a so_o insult_v over_o dr._n st._n as_o betray_v so_o much_o ignorance_n as_o do_v not_o become_v a_o writer_n of_o controversy_n when_o all_o the_o while_n he_o do_v only_o expose_v his_o own_o but_o alas_o this_o be_v the_o current_a divinity_n of_o the_o modern_a school_n and_o what_o oblige_v they_o to_o look_v into_o the_o opinion_n of_o former_a age_n yet_o methinks_v a_o man_n have_v need_v to_o look_v about_o he_o before_o he_o upbraid_v another_o with_o gross_a and_o intolerable_a error_n lest_o at_o the_o same_o time_n he_o prove_v the_o guilty_a person_n and_o then_o the_o charge_n fall_v back_o far_o more_o heavy_o on_o himself_o 4._o those_o who_o do_v hold_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n do_v it_o chief_o on_o the_o account_n of_o the_o due_a form_n that_o be_v observe_v whoever_o the_o person_n be_v whether_o heretic_n or_o excommunicated-person_n for_o after_o all_o the_o heat_n and_o dispute_v which_o happen_v in_o the_o church_n about_o this_o matter_n the_o best_a way_n they_o find_v to_o resolve_v it_o be_v to_o observe_v the_o same_o course_n which_o the_o church_n have_v do_v in_o the_o baptism_n of_o heretic_n viz._n to_o allow_v that_o baptism_n which_o be_v administer_v in_o due_a form_n although_o those_o who_o administer_v it_o be_v heretic_n thence_o praepositivus_fw-la as_o he_o be_v quote_v by_o morinus_n say_v 3._o that_o a_o heretic_n have_v power_n to_o administer_v all_o the_o sacrament_n as_o long_o as_o he_o observe_v the_o form_n of_o the_o church_n and_o not_o only_o such_o a_o one_o as_o receive_v episcopal_a order_n in_o the_o church_n himself_o but_o those_o who_o do_v derive_v a_o succession_n from_o such_o as_o appear_v from_o tarasius_n in_o the_o second_o council_n of_o nice_a where_o he_o say_v that_o five_o bishop_n of_o constantinople_n successive_o be_v heretic_n and_o yet_o their_o ordination_n be_v allow_v by_o the_o church_n to_o the_o same_o purpose_n speak_v other_o who_o be_v there_o produce_v by_o the_o same_o learned_a author_n let_v these_o consideration_n be_v lay_v together_o and_o the_o result_n will_v be_v 1._o either_o dr._n st._n be_v not_o guilty_a of_o a_o intolerable_a error_n and_o mistake_n in_o this_o matter_n or_o so_o many_o infallible_a head_n of_o the_o church_n be_v guilty_a of_o the_o same_o 2._o it_o be_v believe_v for_o some_o age_n in_o the_o roman_a church_n that_o the_o censure_n of_o the_o church_n do_v take_v away_o the_o power_n of_o order_n 3._o t._n g.'s_n distinction_n as_o to_o the_o foundation_n of_o it_o in_o the_o indelible_a character_n of_o order_n be_v a_o novel_a thing_n and_o acknowledge_v by_o their_o own_o divine_n to_o have_v no_o foundation_n either_o in_o scripture_n or_o father_n 4._o the_o ground_n assign_v by_o those_o who_o hold_v the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n by_o heretic_n will_v hold_v for_o the_o authority_n of_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n if_o not_o actual_o take_v away_o by_o the_o censure_n of_o the_o church_n for_o every_o man_n have_v the_o power_n which_o be_v give_v he_o till_o it_o be_v take_v from_o he_o every_o one_o that_o receive_v order_n according_a to_o the_o form_n of_o the_o church_n have_v a_o power_n give_v he_o to_o excommunicate_v and_o absolve_v therefore_o every_o such_o person_n do_v enjoy_v that_o power_n till_o it_o be_v take_v from_o he_o for_o as_o i_o have_v already_o show_v this_o be_v part_n of_o the_o form_n of_o order_n in_o the_o roman_a church_n accipe_fw-la spiritum_fw-la sanctum_fw-la quorum_fw-la remiseritis_fw-la etc._n etc._n and_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n determine_v the_o character_n to_o be_v imprint_v upon_o the_o use_n of_o these_o word_n 4._o therefore_o this_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v convey_v by_o the_o due_a form_n of_o order_n from_o whence_o it_o unavoidable_o follow_v that_o every_o one_o who_o have_v have_v the_o due_a form_n of_o order_n have_v have_v this_o power_n convey_v to_o he_o and_o what_o power_n he_o have_v he_o must_v enjoy_v till_o it_o be_v take_v away_o r._n p._n but_o t._n g._n say_v that_o excommunication_n by_o the_o apostle_n sentence_n do_v it_o gal._n 1.8_o p._n d._n this_o be_v indeed_o a_o piece_n of_o new_a doctrine_n and_o a_o fruit_n of_o t._n g.'s_n mother-wit_n and_o which_o i_o dare_v say_v he_o receive_v neither_o from_o schoolman_n nor_o father_n for_o it_o involve_v such_o mischievous_a consequence_n in_o it_o as_o real_o overthrow_v all_o authority_n in_o the_o church_n for_o by_o this_o supposition_n in_o case_n any_o bishop_n fall_v into_o heresy_n or_o idolatry_n he_o be_v ipso_fw-la facto_fw-la excommunicate_v by_o st._n paul_n be_v sentence_n and_o consequent_o have_v no_o authority_n to_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n and_o so_o all_o who_o derive_v their_o power_n from_o he_o have_v no_o lawful_a authority_n or_o jurisdiction_n i_o do_v wonder_n in_o all_o this_o time_n t._n g._n do_v no_o better_o reflect_v upon_o this_o assertion_n and_o the_o consequence_n of_o it_o and_o rather_o to_o thank_v dr._n st._n that_o he_o take_v no_o more_o notice_n of_o it_o than_o upbraid_v he_o with_o intolerable_a error_n and_o mistake_n i_o will_v put_v a_o plain_a case_n to_o you_o to_o show_v you_o the_o ill_a consequence_n of_o this_o assertion_n to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n itself_o dr._n st._n have_v prove_v by_o undeniable_a evidence_n that_o the_o arian_n be_v look_v on_o and_o condemn_v as_o idolater_n by_o the_o primitive_a church_n and_o t._n g._n do_v not_o deny_v it_o and_o what_o now_o if_o we_o find_v a_o arian_n among_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n and_o from_o who_o the_o succession_n be_v derive_v he_o must_v stand_v excommunicate_v by_o virtue_n of_o the_o apostle_n sentence_n and_o therefore_o have_v no_o authority_n to_o give_v order_n and_o so_o all_o the_o authority_n in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v lose_v the_o case_n i_o mean_v be_v that_o of_o liberius_n who_o show_v himself_o as_o much_o a_o arian_n as_o any_o of_o the_o arian_n bishop_n do_v for_o he_o subscribe_v their_o confession_n of_o faith_n and_o join_v in_o communion_n with_o they_o 4._o st._n hierom_n say_v more_o than_o once_o that_o he_o subscribe_v to_o heresy_n the_o pontifical_a book_n say_v he_o communicate_v with_o heretic_n marcellinus_n and_o faustinus_n say_v that_o he_o renounce_v the_o faith_n by_o his_o subscription_n yea_o more_o than_o this_o hilary_n denounce_v a_o anathema_n against_o he_o and_o all_o that_o join_v with_o he_o 46._o and_o baronius_n confess_v he_o do_v communicate_v with_o the_o arian_n which_o be_v suffient_fw-la to_o our_o purpose_n then_o come_v t._n g._n upon_o he_o with_o st._n paul_n be_v sentence_n of_o excommunication_n and_o so_o he_o lose_v all_o authority_n of_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o order_n and_o consequent_o that_o authority_n which_o be_v challenge_v in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v derive_v from_o he_o be_v all_o lose_v and_o now_o judge_v who_o subvert_v the_o foundation_n of_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n most_o t._n g._n or_o dr._n st._n yet_o it_o fall_v out_o unhappy_o that_o pet._n damiani_n mention_n these_o very_a ordination_n of_o liberius_n the_o heretic_n so_o he_o call_v he_o to_o show_v how_o the_o church_n do_v allow_v ordination_n make_v by_o heretic_n 16._o but_o this_o be_v not_o all_o for_o by_o all_o that_o i_o can_v find_v if_o this_o principle_n of_o t._n g._n be_v allow_v no_o man_n can_v be_v sure_a there_o be_v any_o lawful_a ecclesiastical_a authority_n leave_v in_o the_o world_n for_o who_o can_v tell_v what_o secret_a idolater_n or_o heretic_n there_o may_v be_v among_o those_o bishop_n from_o who_o that_o authority_n be_v derive_v this_o we_o be_v sure_a of_o that_o the_o arian_n bishop_n possess_v most_o of_o the_o eastern_a church_n and_o make_v ordination_n there_o terminatam_fw-la and_o the_o western_a bishop_n in_o the_o council_n of_o ariminum_n do_v certain_o comply_v with_o they_o
as_o be_v now_o plain_a from_o marcellinus_n and_o faustinus_n who_o book_n be_v publish_v by_o sirmondus_n at_o paris_n where_o sulpitius_n severus_n say_v more_o than_o four_o hundred_o western_a bishop_n be_v present_a who_o be_v all_o excommunicate_v by_o t._n g.'s_n principle_n and_o what_o now_o become_v of_o all_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n but_o dr._n st._n have_v show_v that_o the_o christian_a church_n be_v wise_a than_o to_o proceed_v upon_o t._n g.'s_n principle_n prove_v from_o authentic_a testimony_n of_o antiquity_n that_o the_o arian_n ordination_n be_v allow_v by_o the_o church_n although_o the_o arian_n be_v condemn_v for_o idolater_n r._n p._n 157._o yes_o t._n g._n say_v that_o dr._n st._n be_v resolve_v to_o go_v on_o in_o the_o same_o tract_n still_o and_o to_o prove_v that_o the_o act_n itself_o of_o ordination_n be_v not_o invalid_a in_o case_n of_o the_o idolatry_n of_o the_o giver_n which_o be_v never_o deny_v by_o his_o adversary_n p._n d._n how_o be_v it_o possible_a to_o satisfy_v man_n who_o be_v resolve_v to_o cavil_v do_v not_o dr._n st._n by_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o arian_n bishop_n evident_o prove_v that_o the_o authority_n of_o give_v order_n be_v allow_v by_o the_o christian_a church_n at_o that_o time_n and_o that_o which_o he_o call_v their_o jurisdiction_n as_o well_o as_o the_o power_n of_o order_n because_o nothing_o more_o be_v require_v from_o the_o arian_n bishop_n but_o renounce_v arianism_n and_o subscribe_v the_o nicene_n creed_n and_o thus_o for_o all_o that_o i_o can_v see_v by_o t._n g.'s_n principle_n they_o still_o remain_v under_o st._n paul_n excommunication_n and_o so_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n be_v all_o go_v with_o they_o r._n p._n but_o do_v not_o you_o think_v that_o dr._n st._n have_v some_o secret_a design_n in_o all_o this_o real_o to_o subvert_v the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n for_o t.g._n lay_v together_o several_a notable_a thing_n to_o that_o purpose_n to_o make_v it_o appear_v that_o he_o purposely_o decline_v 161._o defend_v the_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n i_o assure_v you_o it_o be_v a_o very_a politic_a discourse_n and_o have_v several_a deep_a fetch_n in_o it_o first_o he_o begin_v with_o his_o irenicum_fw-la and_o there_o he_o lay_v the_o foundation_n that_o the_o government_n may_v be_v change_v 2._o the_o book_n be_v reprint_v since_o the_o bishop_n be_v reestablish_v by_o law_n 3._o he_o persuade_v the_o bishop_n in_o that_o book_n to_o reduce_v the_o form_n of_o church_n government_n to_o its_o primitive_a state_n and_o order_n by_o restore_a presbytery_n under_o they_o etc._n etc._n 4._o when_o this_o will_v not_o do_v he_o charge_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n with_o idolatry_n and_o make_v this_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n to_o make_v she_o contribute_v to_o the_o subversion_n of_o her_o own_o authority_n 5._o when_o t._n g._n tell_v he_o of_o the_o consequence_n of_o this_o he_o pass_v it_o by_o as_o if_o he_o see_v it_o not_o and_o trifle_v with_o his_o adversary_n about_o the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n 6._o when_o e._n w._n endeavour_v to_o bring_v he_o to_o this_o point_n he_o still_o decline_v it_o and_o leave_v episcopacy_n to_o shift_v for_o itself_o and_o after_o all_o these_o t._n g._n think_v he_o have_v find_v out_o the_o mole_n that_o work_v under_o ground_n p._n d._n a_o very_a great_a discovery_n i_o assure_v you_o and_o t._n g._n deserve_v a_o great_a reward_n than_o any_o common_a molecatcher_n do_v but_o i_o never_o like_v such_o politic_a informer_n for_o if_o people_n be_v more_o dull_a and_o quiet_a than_o they_o will_v have_v they_o they_o make_v plot_n for_o they_o to_o keep_v up_o their_o reputation_n and_o interest_n they_o must_v have_v always_o something_o to_o whisper_v in_o great_a man_n ear_n and_o to_o fill_v their_o head_n with_o design_n which_o be_v never_o think_v of_o by_o which_o mean_n they_o torment_v they_o with_o unreasonable_a suspicion_n and_o tyrannize_v over_o they_o under_o a_o pretence_n of_o kindness_n just_o thus_o do_v t._n g._n do_v by_o the_o governor_n of_o our_o church_n he_o will_v fain_o persuade_v they_o that_o there_o be_v one_o dr._n st._n who_o have_v undertake_v to_o defend_v the_o church_n but_o do_v carry_v on_o a_o very_a secret_a and_o subtle_a design_n to_o ruin_n and_o destroy_v it_o if_o they_o say_v they_o do_v not_o believe_v it_o he_o seem_v to_o pity_v they_o for_o their_o incredulity_n and_o weakness_n and_o endeavour_n to_o convince_v they_o by_o a_o long_a train_n of_o his_o own_o invention_n and_o if_o they_o be_v so_o easy_a to_o hearken_v to_o it_o and_o to_o regard_v his_o insinuation_n than_o he_o flatter_v and_o applaud_v they_o as_o the_o only_a friend_n to_o the_o church_n when_o in_o the_o meantime_n he_o real_o laugh_v at_o they_o as_o a_o sort_n of_o weak_a man_n who_o can_v be_v impose_v upon_o by_o any_o man_n who_o pretend_v to_o be_v a_o friend_n although_o even_o in_o that_o he_o do_v they_o and_o the_o church_n the_o great_a mischief_n i_o can_v believe_v such_o kind_n of_o insinuation_n as_o these_o can_v prevail_v upon_o any_o one_o man_n of_o understanding_n in_o our_o church_n against_o a_o person_n who_o have_v at_o least_o endeavour_v his_o utmost_a to_o defend_v it_o but_o since_o t._n g._n talk_v so_o politic_o about_o these_o matter_n i_o will_v convince_v you_o by_o one_o argument_n of_o common_a prudence_n that_o if_o dr._n st._n be_v a_o man_n of_o common_a sense_n much_o more_o if_o he_o be_v so_o politic_a and_o design_v as_o t._n g._n represent_v he_o all_o these_o suggestion_n must_v be_v both_o false_a and_o foolish_a for_o that_o which_o all_o design_v man_n aim_v at_o be_v their_o own_o interest_n and_o advantage_n now_o can_v any_o man_n that_o have_v common_a sense_n leave_v in_o he_o imagine_v that_o dr._n st._n can_v aim_v at_o any_o great_a advantage_n by_o ruine_v the_o church_n than_o by_o preserve_v it_o be_v not_o his_o circumstance_n more_o considerable_a in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n than_o ever_o he_o can_v hope_v they_o shall_v be_v if_o it_o be_v destroy_v they_o who_o will_v persuade_v other_o that_o he_o carry_v on_o such_o a_o secret_a design_n must_v suppose_v he_o to_o be_v next_o to_o a_o idiot_n and_o such_o be_v not_o very_o dangerous_a politician_n but_o what_o be_v it_o then_o shall_v make_v he_o act_v so_o much_o against_o his_o interest_n it_o can_v be_v nothing_o but_o folly_n or_o malice_n but_o i_o do_v not_o find_v they_o have_v tax_v he_o of_o any_o malice_n to_o the_o church_n of_o england_n or_o of_o any_o occasion_n for_o it_o which_o the_o church_n have_v give_v he_o if_o he_o be_v dispose_v to_o it_o why_o then_o shall_v any_o be_v so_o senseless_a themselves_o or_o suppose_v other_o to_o be_v so_o as_o to_o go_v about_o to_o possess_v man_n with_o a_o opinion_n of_o a_o underground_n plot_n dr._n st._n be_v carry_v on_o not_o only_o to_o blow_v up_o the_o thames_n but_o the_o rise_a fabric_n of_o st._n paul_n too_o i._n e._n to_o ruin_n and_o destroy_v himself_o if_o he_o be_v a_o fool_n he_o be_v not_o to_o be_v fear_v if_o he_o be_v not_o he_o be_v not_o to_o be_v mistrust_v r.p._n but_o what_o say_v you_o to_o t._n g.'s_n proof_n do_v you_o observe_v the_o several_a molehill_n which_o he_o have_v cast_v up_o and_o be_v not_o that_o a_o sign_n he_o work_v un-derground_a what_o say_v you_o to_o his_o irenicum_fw-la in_o the_o first_o place_n p._n d._n i_o will_v tell_v you_o free_o i_o believe_v there_o be_v many_o thing_n in_o it_o which_o if_o dr._n st._n be_v to_o write_v now_o he_o will_v not_o have_v say_v for_o there_o be_v some_o thing_n which_o show_v his_o youth_n and_o want_v of_o due_a consideration_n other_o which_o he_o yield_v too_o far_o in_o hope_n of_o gain_v the_o dissent_v party_n to_o the_o church_n of_o england_n but_o upon_o the_o whole_a matter_n i_o be_o full_o satisfy_v the_o book_n be_v write_v with_o a_o design_n to_o serve_v the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o the_o design_n of_o it_o i_o take_v to_o be_v this_o that_o among_o we_o there_o be_v no_o necessity_n of_o enter_v upon_o nice_a and_o subtle_a dispute_n about_o a_o strict_a jus_o divinum_fw-la of_o episcopacy_n such_o as_o make_v all_o other_o form_n of_o government_n unlawful_a but_o it_o be_v sufficient_a for_o we_o if_o it_o be_v prove_v to_o be_v the_o most_o ancient_a and_o agreeable_a to_o apostolical_a practice_n and_o most_o accommodate_v to_o our_o law_n and_o civil_a government_n and_o there_o can_v be_v no_o pretence_n against_o submit_v to_o it_o but_o the_o demonstrate_v its_o unlawfulness_n which_o he_o know_v be_v impossible_a to_o be_v do_v and_o for_o what_o
several_a conference_n between_o a_o romish_a priest_n a_o fanatic_a chaplain_n and_o a_o divine_a of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n concern_v the_o idolatry_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v a_o full_a answer_n to_o the_o late_a dialogue_n of_o t._n g._n london_n print_v by_o m._n w._n for_o h._n mortlock_n at_o the_o phoenix_n in_o st._n paul_n churchyard_n and_o at_o the_o white_a hart_n in_o westminster_n hall_n 1679._o imprimatur_fw-la guil._n jane_n r._n p._n d._n hen._n episc._n lond._n à _fw-la sac_fw-la dome_a may_v 6._o 1679._o the_o preface_n the_o follow_a discourse_n contain_v a_o full_a and_o distinct_a answer_n to_o the_o late_a dialogue_n of_o t.g._n wherein_o the_o reader_n may_v perceive_v what_o a_o easy_a victory_n truth_n when_o it_o stand_v its_o ground_n will_v obtain_v over_o wit_n and_o subtilty_n when_o the_o man_n who_o fall_v in_o the_o olympic_a game_n endeavour_v by_o his_o eloquence_n to_o persuade_v the_o spectator_n he_o be_v never_o down_o it_o be_v possible_a he_o may_v meet_v with_o some_o weak_a and_o other_o partial_a enough_o to_o believe_v he_o but_o the_o judge_n can_v not_o but_o smile_v at_o their_o folly_n who_o do_v not_o discern_v the_o difference_n between_o the_o firmness_n of_o the_o one_o stand_v and_o the_o other_o artificial_a rise_a the_o one_o may_v show_v more_o art_n and_o dexterity_n but_o the_o other_o have_v more_o strength_n or_o some_o other_o advantage_n i_o shall_v leave_v the_o reader_n to_o judge_v in_o these_o combat_n who_o maintain_v his_o ground_n best_o and_o who_o seek_v chief_o to_o avoid_v the_o dis-reputation_n of_o lose_v it_o he_o that_o keep_v close_o to_o his_o adversary_n decline_v no_o difficulty_n use_v no_o reproachful_a language_n or_o disingenuous_a deal_n have_v certain_o great_a assurance_n of_o the_o goodness_n of_o his_o cause_n and_o more_o hope_n to_o prevail_v than_o he_o that_o study_v for_o shift_n and_o evasion_n avoid_v the_o strong_a argument_n and_o fly_v out_o into_o impertinent_a cavil_n and_o personal_a reflection_n which_o be_v great_a sign_n that_o the_o man_n be_v conscious_a of_o the_o badness_n of_o his_o cause_n and_o despair_n of_o success_n by_o any_o other_o mean_n and_o the_o author_n of_o these_o discourse_n desire_n that_o his_o adversary_n and_o himself_o may_v stand_v or_o fall_v according_a to_o these_o measure_n as_o to_o the_o manner_n of_o write_v here_o use_v viz._n by_o way_n of_o dialogue_n it_o be_v that_o which_o his_o adversary_n lead_v he_o to_o and_o possible_o where_o the_o decency_n of_o it_o be_v well_o observe_v it_o may_v make_v controversy_n go_v down_o more_o pleasant_o than_o otherwise_o it_o will_v for_o there_o appear_v more_o life_n and_o vigour_n in_o a_o discourse_n carry_v on_o by_o several_a person_n of_o different_a humour_n and_o opinion_n than_o in_o one_o continue_a deduction_n of_o reason_n and_o the_o author_n declare_v he_o intend_v no_o reflection_n on_o any_o sober_a party_n of_o man_n among_o we_o in_o the_o representation_n make_v of_o the_o army-chaplain_n who_o bear_v the_o three_o part_n in_o the_o conference_n but_o only_o to_o show_v the_o advantage_n the_o popish_a party_n take_v from_o the_o weak_a and_o peevish_a exception_n which_o some_o man_n have_v make_v against_o the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o how_o they_o insinuate_v themselves_o into_o they_o on_o the_o account_n of_o their_o prejudices_fw-la against_o it_o and_o have_v make_v use_n of_o their_o indiscreet_a zeal_n to_o compass_v their_o own_o end_n which_o be_v so_o far_o from_o be_v a_o romance_n or_o fiction_n that_o beside_o the_o footstep_n which_o may_v be_v yet_o trace_v of_o these_o transaction_n by_o the_o mean_n and_o instrument_n which_o be_v employ_v about_o they_o we_o find_v that_o one_o of_o the_o most_o busy_a factor_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n whâ—n_o he_o most_o confident_o deny_v the_o other_o part_n of_o the_o late_a horrid_a design_n do_v not_o stick_v to_o avow_v and_o own_v this_o that_o they_o do_v hope_n to_o prevail_v at_o last_o by_o join_v their_o strength_n with_o the_o obstinate_a dissenter_n in_o procure_v a_o general_n toleration_n which_o be_v all_o the_o visible_a design_n they_o be_v carry_v on_o when_o these_o discourse_n be_v write_v since_o which_o the_o face_n of_o thing_n have_v be_v so_o much_o alter_v among_o we_o and_o the_o time_n appear_v so_o busy_a and_o dangerous_a that_o it_o be_v think_v more_o adviseable_a to_o respite_v the_o publish_n of_o these_o controversial_a discourse_n till_o man_n mind_n be_v a_o little_a calm_v lest_o the_o author_n of_o they_o shall_v seem_v guilty_a of_o the_o impertinent_a diligence_n of_o archimedes_n viz._n of_o draw_v line_n in_o the_o dust_n when_o the_o enemy_n be_v ready_a to_o destroy_v we_o have_v the_o author_n have_v any_o occasion_n to_o have_v run_v away_o from_o the_o argument_n under_o debate_n between_o he_o and_o his_o adversary_n he_o do_v not_o want_v a_o fair_a opportunity_n in_o the_o present_a state_n of_o thing_n to_o have_v put_v he_o in_o mind_n of_o something_o very_o different_a from_o a_o irenicum_fw-la but_o he_o desire_v i_o to_o acquaint_v the_o reader_n that_o he_o do_v so_o perfect_o abhor_v this_o impertinent_a and_o disingenuous_a way_n of_o writing_n especial_o about_o matter_n of_o religion_n that_o he_o can_v neither_o be_v provoke_v nor_o tempt_v to_o it_o no_o not_o by_o so_o great_a and_o fresh_a a_o example_n as_o he_o have_v all_o along_o before_o his_o eye_n may_v that_o wise_a and_o gracious_a god_n who_o have_v hitherto_o defeat_v the_o cruel_a and_o malicious_a design_n of_o our_o church_n enemy_n still_o preserve_v it_o under_o the_o shadow_n of_o his_o wing_n and_o continue_v it_o a_o praise_n in_o the_o earth_n the_o content_n first_o conference_n concern_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n about_o the_o idolatry_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n the_o introduction_n to_o it_o page_n 1_o a_o account_n of_o t._n g.'s_n late_a dialogue_n p._n 10_o of_o the_o genuine_a son_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n according_a to_o t._n g._n p._n 11.19_o of_o his_o intention_n about_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n in_o this_o matter_n p._n 15_o of_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o testimony_n produce_v by_o dr._n st._n p._n 20_o the_o argument_n from_o the_o homily_n defend_v p._n 22_o this_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n prove_v to_o be_v no_o heat_n in_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o reformation_n p._n 26_o the_o argument_n from_o the_o rubric_n for_o kneel_v at_o the_o communion_n at_o large_a consider_v p._n 34_o no_o colour_n for_o idolatry_n in_o kneel_v at_o the_o eucharist_n p._n 35_o t._n g.'s_n sense_n of_o the_o rubric_n examine_v p._n 46_o of_o material_a and_o formal_a idolatry_n p._n 52_o how_o far_o the_o real_a presence_n be_v hold_v by_o our_o church_n p._n 56_o bertram_n book_v not_o the_o same_o with_o that_o of_o joh._n scotus_n p._n 63_o of_o the_o stercoranist_n p._n 64_o of_o impanation_n p._n 65_o of_o a_o corporeal_a presence_n p._n 68_o of_o b._n abbot_n be_v a_o puritan_n p._n 74_o how_o far_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v chargeable_a with_o idolatry_n p._n 79_o mr._n thorndike_n vindicate_v from_o suspicion_n of_o popery_n by_o a_o m_o s._n of_o his_o own_o writing_n here_o publish_v p._n 85_o archbishop_n whitgift_n testimony_n clear_v p._n 93_o of_o the_o distinction_n between_o part_n and_o circumstance_n of_o worship_n p._n 100_o how_o far_o the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n be_v agreeable_a to_o the_o article_n of_o our_o church_n p._n 103_o second_v conference_n about_o the_o consequence_n of_o the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n p._n 113_o the_o introduction_n concern_v the_o restauration_n of_o learning_n be_v the_o true_a occasion_n of_o the_o reformation_n p._n 115_o of_o the_o validity_n of_o ordination_n on_o supposition_n of_o the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n p._n 121_o authority_n go_v along_o with_o the_o power_n of_o order_n by_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n p._n 125_o of_o the_o indelible_a character_n p._n 129_o the_o distinction_n between_o the_o power_n of_o order_n and_o jurisdiction_n examine_v p._n 134_o of_o excommunication_n ipso_fw-la facto_fw-la on_o the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n p._n 141_o dr._n st._n prove_v to_o have_v no_o design_n to_o undermine_v the_o church_n of_o england_n p._n 145_o the_o design_n of_o his_o irenicum_fw-la clear_v p._n 148_o how_o far_o the_o be_v of_o a_o church_n and_o the_o possibility_n of_o salvation_n consistent_a with_o the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n p._n 151_o a_o large_a testimony_n of_o b._n sanderson_n to_o that_o purpose_n p._n 153_o no_o necessity_n of_o assign_v a_o distinct_a church_n in_o all_o age_n p._n 158_o no_o obligation_n to_o communion_n with_o the_o roman_a church_n p._n 161_o no_o parity_n of_o reason_n in_o separate_v from_o the_o church_n of_o
our_o interest_n but_o none_o that_o understand_v and_o value_v our_o church_n will_v endure_v such_o a_o pernicious_a discrimination_n among_o the_o son_n of_o the_o same_o mother_n as_o though_o some_o few_o be_v fatal_o determine_v to_o be_v the_o son_n of_o our_o church_n whatever_o their_o work_n and_o merit_n be_v and_o other_o absolute_o cast_v off_o notwithstanding_o the_o great_a service_n i_o shall_v not_o mention_v this_o but_o that_o i_o see_v t._n g._n insinuate_v all_o along_o such_o a_o distinction_n as_o this_o and_o cry_v up_o some_o person_n on_o purpose_n as_o the_o only_a genuine_a son_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n that_o he_o may_v cast_v reproach_n upon_o other_o and_o thereby_o foment_n animosity_n among_o brethren_n but_o who_o child_n those_o be_v who_o do_v so_o i_o leave_v t._n g._n to_o consider_v r._n p._n whatever_o t._n g.'s_n intention_n be_v yet_o you_o can_v deny_v that_o he_o have_v prove_v two_o part_n in_o three_o to_o be_v incompetent_a witness_n according_a to_o his_o own_o measure_n p._n d._n not_o deny_v it_o i_o never_o see_v any_o thing_n more_o weak_o attempt_v to_o be_v prove_v as_o dr._n st._n have_v show_v at_o large_a in_o his_o preface_n bishop_n white_a be_v reject_v as_o a_o puritan_n because_o condemn_v by_o that_o party_n bishop_n jewel_n because_o k._n charles_n say_v he_o be_v not_o infallible_a bishop_n bilson_n because_o of_o his_o error_n about_o civil_a government_n though_o a_o stout_a defender_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n bishop_n davenant_n because_o he_o be_v none_o of_o the_o father_n bishop_n usher_n because_o his_o adversary_n give_v a_o ill_a character_n of_o he_o by_o this_o you_o may_v judge_v what_o powerful_a exception_n t._n g._n make_v against_o two_o part_n in_o three_o of_o the_o witness_n r._n p._n t._n g._n say_v that_o dr._n st._n rather_o wave_v the_o exception_n by_o pretty_a facetious_a artifices_fw-la of_o wit_n 9_o than_o repel_v they_o by_o a_o downright_a denial_n out_o of_o the_o affection_n catharinus_n hope_n he_o bear_v still_o to_o the_o cause_n which_o have_v be_v honour_v by_o such_o learned_a and_o godly_a bishop_n as_o jewel_n downham_n Ê‹sher_n the_o two_o abbot_n and_o davenant_n which_o be_v record_v among_o the_o puritan_n by_o the_o patronus_fw-la bonae_fw-la fidei_fw-la p._n d._n you_o may_v as_o well_o have_v quote_v surius_n &_o cochlaeus_fw-la for_o your_o church_n as_o this_o patronus_fw-la bonae_fw-la fidei_fw-la for_o we_o for_o he_o be_v a_o historian_n much_o of_o their_o size_n and_o credit_n but_o of_o he_o we_o shall_v have_v occasion_n to_o speak_v hereafter_o t._n g._n fill_v page_n after_o page_n out_o of_o he_o let_v the_o reader_n judge_n whether_o dr._n st._n do_v not_o show_v t._n g.'s_n exception_n to_o be_v vain_a and_o srivolous_a and_o consequent_o these_o remain_v substantial_a and_o competent_a witness_n and_o as_o to_o the_o cause_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n which_o these_o learned_a and_o pious_a prelate_n defend_v and_o honour_v dr._n st._n will_v rejoice_v to_o be_v join_v with_o they_o though_o it_o be_v in_o suffer_v reproach_n for_o the_o sake_n of_o it_o r._n p._n let_v we_o pass_v over_o these_o single_a testimony_n and_o come_v to_o the_o most_o material_a proof_n which_o dr._n st._n use_v and_o t._n g._n declare_v he_o be_v not_o yet_o convince_v by_o they_o that_o the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n be_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n p._n d._n with_o all_o my_o heart_n the_o first_o be_v from_o the_o book_n of_o homily_n not_o bare_o allow_v but_o subscribe_v to_o as_o contain_v godly_a and_o wholesome_a doctrine_n very_o necessary_a for_o these_o time_n which_o own_v this_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n not_o in_o any_o doubtful_a or_o single_a passage_n but_o in_o a_o elaborate_a discourse_n intend_v for_o the_o teacher_n as_o well_o as_o the_o people_n to_o which_o he_o add_v that_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o homily_n be_v allow_v in_o the_o thirty_o nine_o article_n which_o be_v approve_v by_o the_o queen_n confirm_v by_o the_o subscription_n of_o both_o house_n of_o convocation_n a._n d._n 1571._o and_o therefore_o he_o desire_v t._n g._n to_o resolve_v he_o whether_o man_n of_o any_o common_a understanding_n will_v have_v subscribe_v to_o the_o book_n of_o homily_n in_o this_o manner_n if_o they_o have_v believe_v the_o main_a doctrine_n and_o design_n of_o one_o of_o they_o have_v be_v false_a and_o pernicious_a if_o say_v he_o any_o of_o the_o bishop_n have_v at_o that_o time_n think_v the_o charge_n of_o idolatry_n unjust_a and_o that_o it_o have_v subvert_v the_o foundation_n of_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n will_v they_o have_v insert_v this_o into_o the_o article_n when_o it_o be_v in_o their_o power_n to_o have_v leave_v it_o out_o and_o that_o the_o homily_n contain_v a_o wholesome_a and_o godly_a doctrine_n which_o in_o their_o conscience_n they_o believe_v to_o be_v false_a and_o pernicious_a he_o may_v as_o well_o think_v he_o say_v that_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n will_v have_v allow_v calvin_n institution_n as_o contain_v a_o wholesome_a and_o godly_a doctrine_n as_o that_o man_n so_o persuade_v will_v have_v allow_v the_o homily_n against_o the_o peril_n of_o idolatry_n and_o how_o be_v it_o possible_a to_o understand_v the_o sense_n of_o our_o church_n better_o than_o by_o such_o public_a and_o authentic_a act_n of_o it_o which_o all_o person_n who_o be_v in_o any_o place_n of_o trust_n in_o the_o church_n must_v subscribe_v and_o declare_v their_o approbation_n of_o this_o homily_n have_v still_o continue_v the_o same_o the_o article_n the_o very_a same_o and_o if_o so_o they_o must_v acknowledge_v this_o have_v be_v and_o be_v to_o this_o day_n the_o sense_n of_o our_o church_n and_o to_o what_o t._n g._n say_v that_o this_o do_v not_o evince_v every_o particular_a doctrine_n contain_v in_o the_o homily_n to_o be_v godly_a and_o wholesome_a because_o the_o whole_a book_n be_v 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of_o idolatry_n be_v not_o only_o own_v by_o the_o composer_n of_o the_o homily_n but_o by_o all_o who_o have_v honest_o subscribe_v to_o the_o article_n from_o that_o time_n to_o our_o own_o and_o i_o will_v be_v glad_a to_o hear_v what_o answer_n t._n g._n give_v to_o all_o this_o r._n p._n he_o answer_v first_o by_o repeat_v what_o he_o say_v before_o and_o then_o by_o show_v that_o subscription_n be_v no_o good_a argument_n 15._o consider_v what_o have_v be_v do_v and_o undo_v in_o that_o kind_n in_o the_o reign_v of_o k._n henry_n 8._o edw._n 6._o q._n marry_o and_o q._n elizabeth_n not_o to_o speak_v of_o latter_a time_n p._n d._n what_o be_v this_o but_o in_o plain_a term_n to_o say_v the_o subscriber_n of_o our_o article_n be_v man_n of_o no_o honesty_n or_o conscience_n but_o will_v say_v or_o unsay_v subscribe_v one_o thing_n or_o another_o as_o it_o serve_v their_o turn_n if_o this_o be_v his_o way_n of_o defend_v our_o church_n we_o shall_v desire_v he_o to_o defend_v his_o 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