I had not nor could getanie other copie The place is thus Pour tant ceulx qui despouillenâ— l' Eglise de ceste puisance pour exalter be magistrate ou la iustice terriene non seulemeÌ„t corroÌ„pent le sens des paroles de Christe par faulse interpretation mais aussi accusent d' une grande vice les sainctz euesques qui ont estè en grand nombre depuis be temps des Apostres comme â—iilz eussent vsurpè la dignitè office du magistrate subz fauls se couerture That is to saie in englishe Those therefore which to exalt the magistrat or earthely iustice doe spoile the churche of this power he meaneth and speakith of the ordre touching churche matters doe corrupt not onelie the sense of Christes owne wordes by false interpretation but doe also accuse of a heynouse faulte the holie bishops whereof the nombre is not small which haue bin sence the apostles time as though they had vsurped by false colouring the matter the office and dignitie of the magistrate Nowe choose good readers whether ye had rather beleue Caluin mainteining the auctoritie and iurisdiction of the churche or our clawebackes and parasites which impugne the same The one hath scripture to defende it The other hath nothing to assaulte it The scripture saeith that in doutefull questions we should resort to the priestes that at their word should all matters be decided that they should iudge that at their handes we should demaunde knowlege that their lippes be the kepers thereof because they ar our lordes angells Nowe coÌ„meth the heretike the peruerter of scripture he telleth vs that we must seke it at the princes handes that he is goddes chiefest ministre in thinges and causes aswel ecclesiasticall as temporall The scripture reaconeth in the first place in Christes churche apostles that is to say priestes for we maie not thinck that in that place the apostle described a forme of the churche to endure but for that onelie age The heretike will haue princes placed aboue and priestes benethe The holie ghost appointed bishoppes and priestes to gouern the flock of Christ that is the churche The diuell in his meÌ„bres appointeth ciuile magistrates to rule and priestes to obey So that herebie we maie most euidentlie see how manifestly they peruert and corrupt the true sense and meaning of gods worde As for the other poinct which Caluin also laieth to their charge of accusing of a most heynouse and grieuouse fault the auncient bishoppes that haue bin sence th'apostles time as though they had by vnlaufull meanes vsurped to them selues the office and dignitie of the Magistrate it is also if their doctrine wer true most plaine and euident eueÌ„ at the eye For first if kinges must be the chiefe gouernours in matters of religion and bishoppes their vnderlinges who seeth not then how far Ignatius that holy martyr abused bothe him self and vs to bid all men without exception euen th'emperor him self by name to the obedient to the bishop to tell vs that after him next the king is to be honored If this be true which they teache who is he that can excuse Liberius that holie father who for the determining of matters coÌ„cerning the cuhrche would haue a sinode kept where the emperour should not so much as be present Or that reuerend father Hosius who willed th'emperour not to entremedle in ecclesiasticall causes nor to comptroll or commaunde the bishoppes therein but to learne of the in those thinges to whose charge they wer committed not to his Or Athanasius that strong piller of Christes churche who when he saw that wicked emperour Constantius doe that which the heretikes of this our time perswade the Kinges and Emperours that now arre to doe as the Arrians did those of their age that is to take apon him the determination of matters ecclesiasticall to make him selfe chief iudge bothe of the bishoppes and causes belonging to the churche called him that abhomination of desolatioÌ„ spoken of by Daniel the prophet and pronounced that for his so doing his impietie was such as Antichrist when he should comme him self should not be able to goe beyond termed it a newe deuise brought in by the Arrians and finally demaunded but one example ab oeuo condito from the beginning of the world where by it might appeare that the doinges of the churche should take their auctoritie from th'emperour till Arrius his time Or Gregorius Nazianzenus who told th'emperour that by the lawe of Christ his power was subiect to his consistory and that although he wer an emperour yeat was he not withstanding a shepe of his flock Or S. Ambrose that bad the emperour set his hart at rest and not to thinke that he had by the right of his crowne any auctoritie in those matters that concerned religion that his palaice belonged to him and the churche to the priestes Or Chrisostom who comparing the power of a King with the auctoritie of a priest calleth the one a prince aswell as the other and greater theÌ„ he toe by so much as heauen is greater then the earth and addeth that god him self to witnesse the same hath brought vnder the handes of the priest the head of the prince For that saith he that is lesser is blessed of the greater Who in an other place saieth that the power which is geuen to priestes is such as the like thereto was neuer giuen to Angels or Archangels seing that to none of them it was euer said what so euer yow binde in earthe shalbe bound in heauen or what so euer yow loose in earthe shalbe loosed in heauen Or how wer it possible if this doctrine of our aduersaries wer true to excuse Damascenus for reprehending Leo Isaurus as yow haue hard before the emperour and many a one more of the holie fathers which for breuities sake I am here constreined to passe ouer in silence Leauing therefore our aduersaries thus at square both with the old fathers and their newe doctours it is high time good readers that I remembre to discharge my self of my promise which was to laie before your eyes such euidence as in this matter ether part had to bring for theÌ„ selfe Which as I haue for the catholikes according to my simple wit and pooer knowledge allreadie done so shall I by goddes grace on the contrary parte for the protestaÌ„tes and Huguenotes faithefully endeuor to doe the like And because for that aswell of all the poisoned reasons touching either this matter or almost any other at this day in question the late apologie of the churche of EnglaÌ„d for so is it by th' authors termed may well be called as it wer the some or abridgemeÌ„t as also for that there is as it should seme and sence hath byn coÌ„fessed in it comoÌ„ consent of all the fantasticall congregation I meane of them that trouble Christes churche in our countrie
ecclesiasticall synode assembled far from his palace where neither the emperour shalbe present neither his lieuetenant intrude him self nor iudge threaten Thus was the emperour answered by that greate good olde man and true confessor Hosius the bishop of Corduba in Spayn to whom as Theodoretus writeth Athanasius was wont to say that no man came sicke and wounded that went not away hole and cured This notable and auncient father this true confessor of Christes faithe for so did also Athanasius call him when he sawe that the emperour Constantius would nedes take apō him the gouernement of the churche which belonged not to him first he proposed to him th' example of his brother Constans who liuing like a vertuouse prince within his boundes neuer attempted the like and after he writeth thus Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis nequè nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius à nobis ea disce Tibi deus imperium commisit nobis quae sunt ecclesiae concredidit Et quemadmodum qui tuum imperium malignis oculis carpit contradicit ordinationi diuina ita tucaue ne quae sunt ecclesiae ad te retrahens magno crimini fias obnoxius Date scriptum est quae sunt Caesaris Caesari quae Dei deo that is to say Entremedle not your self o emperour in ecclesiasticall causes nor take not apon yow to commaund vs in those matters but the thinges that belong thereto learne yow them rather of vs. To yow hath god commited th' empire and to vs the busines and affaires of the churche And euen as he that will with comptrolling eye checke your gouernement resisteth the ordinaunce of god so take yow also good hede lest in drawing to yow those thinges which apperteine to the churche yow incurre a greate and a heynouse faulte Giue it is written to Cesar that which is his dutie and to god that which is gods Athanasius speaking to this purpose sayeth Siistud est iudicium episcoporum c. If this iudgement belong to bisshops what hath th' emperour to doe therewith or if on the contrary part these matters be wrought by the threateninges of Cesar what nede is there of any men beside to beare the bare title of bishops when from the beginning of the world hath it byn hard of that the iudgement of the churche hath taken auctoritie of the emperour Or when hath this byn agnised for any iudgemēt Many synodes haue there byn before this time many councels hath the churche holden but the time is yet to comme that euer either the fathers went about to persuade the prince any such matter or that the prince showed him self to be curiouse in matters of the churche But nowe haue we a spectacle neuer seene before brought in by Arrius heresie And towardes the ende of the same epistle of Constantius attempting to meddle in causes ecclesiasticall he writeth thus Quid igitur hic quod Antichristi est omistt aut quid ille vbi venerit plus committere poterit aut quomodo ille in aduentu suo non repererit sibi expeditam uiam ad dolos abisto praeparatam Siquidemiam denuò in locum ecclesiasticae cognitionis palatium tribunal earum causarum constituit sesequè earum litium summū principem authorem facit What is therefore sayth he to be doen by Antichrist that Constantius hath omitted or what can Antichrist doe more at his commyng then he hath doen allready Or how can it be that he shall not find the way ready made by hym when he commeth for all his disceytfull wyles For euen nowe again in the place of the ecclesiaticall iurisdiction he hath placed and appointed his owne palace to be the cōsistory of those causes that should haue byn determined thereby and he maketh him self the chief iudge and arbitre thereof And a little after he addeth Quis enim videns eum in decernendo principe se facere episcoporū praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non meritò eam ipsam abominationem de solationis dicat esse que a Daniele praedicta est for who seeing him in iudgement make him self the chief of the bishoppes and rule in causes ecclesiasticall may not worthely say that he is that abhomination of desolation that Daniel prophecied of Thus haue yowe hard good Readers how thiese auncient fathers Liberius Hosius and Athanasius reproued the doings of Constantius th' emperour the first that we read of and yet him self an Arrian and prouoked thereto by that wicked broode that tooke apō him to meddle in ecclesiasticall iurisdiction Next after him succeded in the empire Iulian of the historiographers called apostata for that that being once a professed Christian he afterward renied his faithe and became a wicked infidell He robbed churches he plucked priestes from the aultars and sent them to the warres he did sacrifice and called him self as Sozomenus writeth of him by the name of bishop and finally by cōtempt termed the Christians Galilei and was to them a more cruell scourge then any that went before him Of him it is likely that Gregorius Nazianzenus who liued in his time would saie no lesse then of Valens the emperour plaieng not much vnlike parte he did whome in the middest of that ruffle which he made in the churche he told to his face that his power was subiect to his consistory and him self a shepe of his flocke I can not here passe ouer in silence the answer I wot not whether I may call it more pleasant more wittie or more godlie that Theodoretus in his ecclesiasticall historie writeth to be made by one Eulogius a man for his vertues emongest his neighbours highly estemed the historie calleth him primarium inter suos the chief of the place where he dwelled to an officier of Valens th' emperour touching this matter This Valēs fauoring the heresie of Arrius encroched so far apon cclesiasticall iurisdiction that he fell to the depriuing of bishoppes and the placing of other in their roomes besides many other sondry enormites and outrages It happened so that coming on a time to a certein towne in Mesopotamia called Edessa where this Eulogius was then gouernour and thincking to doe there as elles where he had that was to place there a chaplain of his to be bishop he was by this good man and certeine other withstand The officer that had to doe vnder the emperour trauailed earnestly to get his consent and emongest other persuasions that he vsed to induce him thereto it chaunced him to cast out thiese wordes Coniungere cum imperatore Be contented man to ioyne with the emperour Set your harte at rest he will haue it so Tumille faithe the history placidè festiuê Numquid vnà cum imperio etiam ille pontificatum est consecutus whie answered he coldely and pleasantly was he made a bishop that daie that he was crowned emperour as who would saie what although he be
of emperours and kinges ouer bishoppes and priestes Trulie that Iustinian did this it is but barelie affirmed nor any place in th'apologie is there coated where a maÌ„ that doubted might see it proued And therefore with the same auctoritie might it be denied with the which it is proposed to be beleued True it is that Theodora th'empresse as some write being alltogether giuen to the heresie of Eutiches after she had long trauailed first with Siluerius and after Vigilius bothe bishops of Rome to haue Menna the catholike archebishop of Constantinople depriued of his bishoprick and the heretike Anthimius remoued by Agapetus before restored again and could not obteine at their handes her wicked purpose did apon displeasure conceiued by this repulse â— procure by the meanes of Belisarius Iustinians chief â—apitaine the banishement first of th'one and after of th'other Who so euer deposed them or who so euer banâ—shed them true is it that this was the cause thereof and no other Which being as in dede it is most true let vs nowe graunte to our aduersaries that it was not the empresse but the emperour him self that deposed them and let vs see how they be hable to proue thereby that emperours and kinges may degrade priestes and depose bishoppes If they will deale vprightely they must to proue it â—eason thus Iustinian otherwise a Christian emperour but in this point a cruell heretike tirannously deposed two popes Siluerius and Vigilius onely because they would not doe wrong that is depriue him of his bishoprick to a catholike bishop and restore an heretike laufully before depriued Ergo th'emperour is aboue the pope Ergo kinges be aboue bishoppes Is not this a propre kinde of reasoning trowe yow Might they not haue reasoned after this sort that Nero deposed S. Petre that Traian put downe Clement with a nombre of such like examples For to saie that Iustinian was a christian whereas thiese wer infidelles is but a mist cast in to th'obiection to desell our eyes For who seeth not if he be not allreadie blinde that this deede if it should haue bene Iustinians to mainteine and defend an open heretike ageinst a faithefull and true catholyke had bene the act of a tyrant and infidell not of a Christian and good prince and that it is no better reason to say and conclude that he deposed them and therefore iustlie then it should be to say that he defended the heretike Anthimius and therefore rightefullie But seing this example will not serue our aduersaries turn let vs assaie to make it serue ours And first let vs examine what should be the cause why Iustinian should be so earnest with these two bishoppes of Rome to depose the B. of Constantinople and to restore the heretike that stoode depriued was he not emperour of all the worlde had he not by the meanes thereof as our newe doctours beare vs in hande the chief gouernement ouer all matters spirituall and temporall was on the other side the auctoritie of the bishoppes of Rome at that time such that it extended I will not saie out of their owne diocesse to any other bishoppes in the Latine churche but to Constantinople the chief of the Grieke Here ar they taken how so euer they answer For first if th'emperour had bene of that auctoritie that they saie the laie magistrates arre why did he not then by his owne mere and absolute power displace the one and place the other Might he not as well haue deposed one bisshop at Constantinople as two at Rome But if on the contrarie parte they answer that the pope was he that must necessarilie place and displace euen at that time and in the Grieke churche and not the emperour whie then should it be laufull at this time for emperours or kinges to doe that which was not laufull to be done then Or why should it not now be laufull for the B. of Rome which at those daies was not vnlaufull Thus may yowe see good Readers howe this history wholly and truly alleaged maketh not onely not against vs but also much with vs if it had bene true that th'apologie saieth that Iustinian had deposed those two popes Yea but say they yowe can not denie that the emperour made lawes of matters of religion that he absteined not euen in matters of the churche froÌ„ thiese termes Sancimus iubemus we ordeine we commaunde with such like Trulie this can I not denie and if I would there be whole constitutions of his ready to be brought againste me as that where he commaundeth that none be made bisshop that hath a wife and of them that haue had such as haue had oneâ—ie one the same no widowe neither deuorced from her husband neither forbidden by the holie canons and also that where he commaundeth that of priestes no other be receiued to that ordre but such as vel coelibem vitam agunt vel vxorem habuerunt aut habent legitimam eam vnam primam nequé viduam nequé diuortio separatam à viro aut alioquiî legibus aut sacris interdictam canonibus that is to saie as either leade a single life or haue had a laufull wife or presently haue and that one and the first no widowe none diuorsed from her husband or otherwise by the lawes or holie canons forbidden and that of deacons also where he giueth coÌ„maundement that if he that should be deacon haue no wife presently he be not otherwise promoted except being first asked of him which giueth the ordres whether he caÌ„ from thence furth liue without a wife he answer yea In somuch that th'emperour plainely pronounceth that he that ministreth to him the ordres can not dispence with him to mary after and that if he should so doe the bishop which suffred it should be deposed But although this be true that th'emperour Iustinian not onelie in thiese matters which touched the cleargie but in manie other also hath entremedled yet hath he alwaies so tempered the matter as he hath showed him selfe to be a folower not a leader a ministre to execute not a gouerner to prescribe The which thing his owne wordes in all such places where he entreateth of such matters placed as it wer for the nones to take awaie all such sinistre suspicioÌ„ doe manifestlie declare For either he hath these wordes Sequentes ea quae sacris definita sunt canonibus folowing the definition of the holy canons or thiese Sacras per omnia sequentes regulas in all poinctes folowing the holie rules or such like wherebi he would haue testified to the worlde that he meaneth by his penall lawes seuerelie to execute the canons of the churche and nothing lesse then to make newe him selfe In this sense vsed he the worde Sancimus we ordeine Where speaking of the first fower generall councels and the B. of Rome he hath thiese wordes Sancimus vt secundum eorum definitiones sanctissimus veteris Romae papa primus omniâ—m
by common consent and is rightely termed the certificate of their doinges to Leo the pope wherein they called him the heade and them selues the membres and in that that they termed him the man to whome our lorde committed the keping of his vineyarde doe moste plainelie affirme the same there is nowe left to our aduersaries no starting hole to escape Besides all this that yowe haue hard there is a notable testimonie of Iustinian the emperour who in his Codex calleth in plaine wordes Ioannes that was then the pope of Rome caput omnium ecclesiarum that is the heade of al churches And thus much for such as within the first sixe hundred yeares haue called the B. of Rome by this name heade of the churche To come nowe to those who although they haue not vsed the same terme haue named him yet notwithstanding by the like and haue attributed vnto hiÌ„ and acknowleged in him in all poinctes the same iurisdiction and auctoritie I shall first bring furth the testimonie of that stroÌ„g piller and vnmoueable rocke of Christes churche Athanasius and yet not him alone but accompanied with the whole noÌ„bre of the bishoppes of Egipt Thebaida and Libia Who writing to three seuerall popes Marcus Liberius and Felix called first Marcus S. Ro. Apostolicae sedis atque vniuersalis ecclesiae papam that is the bishop or pope for the worde is in the auncient doctours vsed indifferentlie for bothe of the holie apostles seate at Rome and also of the whole vniuersall churche of Christ and the churche of Rome the mother and heade of all churches acknowleged in the secoÌ„de written to Felix that almighty god had placed the bishoppes of Rome insummitatis arce omnium ecclesiarum curam habere praecepit in the chiefest tower that he had commaunded them to take on them the charge not of their owne propre and peculier churche of Rome onlie as though their charge extended no farder but of all churches vniuersallie witnessed beside whereof theie coulde not be ignorant them selues being present there and then which they coulde not haue brought a stronger proufe to proue the superioritie of that See that in the first councell holden at Nice it was ordeined and agreed apon that no councells should be holden or bisshoppes condemned without the auctoritie of the B. of Rome And in their lettres last of all to Liberius the popeâ— doe so openlie and manifestlie witnesse their opinion in this controuersy in saieng that to him as pope was committed the vniuersall churche of Christe to labour for all to helpe euerie one that I can not ynough maruell at your impudency M. Iuell who standing in defence of the contrary beate in to the eares of the people that this doctrine of the popes auctoritie is newe and hath for warrante thereof not so much as one auncient writers approbation and that as suerly as god is god the Catholikes if they had vouchesaufed to folowe the scriptures the generall councels the examples of the primitiue churche or opinions of th'auncient fathers would neuer haue brought in the pope again being once banished out of the realme The seuerall answers of euerie one of thiese popes wherein they acknowleged no lesse burden of charge then was by these fathers laiâ—d apoÌ„ theÌ„ I here forbeare to bring in lest theie maie by yow perhappes be chaleÌ„ged as principall partes to the title in strife The which because I knowe yow can not say by S. Hierom S. Ambrose S. Austen and other such like I shall here of many alleage some for the confirmation thereof S. Hierome called Damasus who was B. of Rome the chief and highest prieste S. Ambrose calleth him ruler of the churche Ecclesia saieth he domus dei est cuius hodie rector est Damasus The churche is goddes house the gouernor whereof at this day is Damasus S. Austen saieth in writing to Bonifacius the pope ageinst the Pelagians that although the office of being a bishop be to them all comon that yet he was in that care placed aboue the rest And in an other place comparing together the blessed apostle S. Peter and the holie martir S. Ciprian he had cause to feare he saied least he might seme to be towardes S. Peter contumeliouse not as though touching the crowne of martirdome they wer not bothe equall but in respect of their seates and bishoprikes Quis enim nescit illum apostolatus principatum cuilibet episcopatui praeferendum for who is quoth he ignorant that that principalitie of apostleship is to be preferred before all bishoprikes To these shall I adde Theodorite the B of Cyrus who writeth in this wise to Leo the pope Si Paulus praeco veritatis tuba sanctissimi spiritus ad magnum Petrum cucurrerit vt ijs qui Antiochiae de institutis Legalibus contendebant ab ipso adferret solutionem multò magis nos qui abiecti sumus pusilli ad apostolicam vestram sedem currimus vt ecclesiarum vlceribus medicinam à vobis accipiamus Vos enim per omnia primos esse conuenit If Paule that is to saie the messanger of truthe and trumpet of the holie ghost ran vnto mighty Peter to fetch from him the resolution of such doubtes as rising apon th' obseruation of the Lawe ministred to them occasion of strife that wer at Antioche much more neede had we which ar weake and abiect to run vnto your apostolicall seate from thence to fetch salues for the sores of the churche For expedient is it that in all pointes before all other yow haue the preeminence And a little after he addeth that the churche of Rome is of all other maxima praeclarissima quae praeest orbi terrarum the greatest the noblest and that which ruleth all the worlde By occasion of this place of Theodoritus calling the churche of Rome the chief of all other which yet he doeth not alone neither for so did well neare two hundred yeares before his daies Irinaeus when he would haue euery churche that is as him selfe expoundeth it all faithefull Christians from all partes of the worlde to mete and conforme them selues to the imitation of this churche propter potentiorem principalitateÌ„ saieth he for the chiefest souereintie that it hath and after him aswell S. Ambrose whose opinion was that Rome hath bene more honored thorough the preeminence and principalitie of the apostolicall priestehood by hauing there the chief tower of religion then it was before when it had there the chief throne of worldly power and ciuile iurisdiction as also S. AusteÌ„ affirming that in that churche the preeminence and chief honour of the apostolicall priestehood hath alwaies florished I shall here make this argument for the better coÌ„firmation of this controuersie that the B. of Rome is the heade and chief of the whole churche this allwaies presupposed that yowe M. Iuell whome I desire to solute this argument ar stille of this minde that the
aunâ—ieÌ„t fathers ar good groundes to builde apon Irinaeus S. Ambrose S. Austen and Theodoritus affirme that the churche of Rome is the chief of all other churches Ergo the B. and heade of that churche is chief and heade ouer all other bishoppes and heades of all other churches And thus much by the occasion offred Stephan to return from whence we haue digressed the archebishop of Carthage with three councels of Africa called the B. of Rome pater patrum summus omnium praesulum pontifex that is to saie father of fathers and chief B. of all bishoppes Constantinus the emperour in one place calleth him summus pontifex the chief bishop and in an other vniuersalis papa vniuersall pope In which place he also commaunded that the churche of Rome should be called the heade of all other in the worlde and for so reputed and taken Hetherto haue I proued vnto yow that the B. of Rome hath bene of the auncient fathers of Christes churche within the firste sixe hundred yeares after Christes departure hence called heade of the churche ruler of the churche chief prieste chief of all other bishoppes bishop of the vniuersall churche and vniuersall bishop Nowe will I showe that the doctours and fathers in the primitiue churche haue not onelie in wordes which yet proceding from the mouthes of such men as they wer might to anie honest man seme sufficient so termed him but by seuerall actes also of theirs well witnessed to the worlde that in their consciences for so theie tooke him And euen as in the lawe to proue the possession of a lordshippe or manor it is a sufficient proufe to bring in euideÌ„ce that he who is disturbed therein hath quietlie without interruption or contradiction maâ—ured and tylled the grounde reaped and receauid the fruites or in a controuersie of iurisdiction to proue the doing of such actes as properlie belong thereunto euen so in this case if I proue vnto yow that the auncient fathers of Christes churche the same whome I named to yowe before haue some of them from the fardest parte of the Easte churche complained to the B. oâ— Rome of wronges don to them some of them required him to confirme their actes and ratifie their doinges other some sente to him their worckes by him to be examined and iudged I nothing doubte but yow will easelie graunte that these ar to induce and proue his iurisdiction ouer the whole churche argumentes moste strong and inuincible To performâ— this the better call to your remembrance I beseche yowe that which a littell before I alleaged to yow out of S Chrisostome where he witnessed that Peter and his successors had the charge of those shepe for whome Christ shed his bloud and then iudge I praie yowe whether of likelihood he thought not as he saide when being chased from his folde and flocke at Constantinople where he was archebishop and vniustlie driuen into banishement he wrote vnto Innocentius then being pope and the chief shepherd for helpe after this manner Obsecro scribas quôd haec tam iniquâ— facta absentibus nobis non declinantibus iudicium non habeant robur sicut neque sua natura habent illi autem qui iniquè egerunt poenaeecclesiâ—sticarum legum subiaceant that is to saie I praie yow saith this holie father to the pope addresse furth your lettres to signifie that those thinges which haue so vniustly bene decreed ageinst me in my absence not proceding of contumacy maie be of no force as of their owne nature theie ar not and that they which haue giuen this vniust sentence maie suffer the smart of the ecclesiasticall lawes Beholde here good readers a moste manifest place to proue in those daies the vniuersall auctoritie of the pope Two thinges there ar here to be noted which Chrisostome desireth the pope to doe first to declare that all that was doen ageinst him should be of no force nexte that he would write that they might be punished which had thus misused him Nowe if the pope had had nothing to doe out of his owne churche then had wote yow well Chrisostome bene a mad man to make labour to him to sende his commaundementes to the Grieke churche to entremeddle in the affaires thereof who might easely haue receiued of the doers of those iniuries which wer membres thereof as Chrisostome was this short answer to meddle with his owne matters and to let theÌ„ alone with theirs Or if he had had nothing to doe in that cause which was concerning the archebishoprike of Constantinople woulde he is it like haue excommunicate Arcadius th'emperour with Eudoxia th'empresse for not permitting Chrisostom quietly to enioye his said bishoprike as Nicephorus reporteth of him that he did by thiese wordes Itaquè ego minimus indignus peccator cui thronus magni apostoli Petri creditus est segrego reijcio te illam à perceptione immaculatorum mysteriorum Christi Dei nostri Episcopum etiam omnem aâ—t clericum ordinis sanctae dei ecclesiae qui administrare aut exhibere ea vobis ausus fuerit ab ea hora qua praesentes vinculi mei legeritis literas dignitate sua excidisse dâ—cerno That is to say I therefore Innocentius the pope of all other the leaste and an vnworthy sinner to whome the throne of the greate apostle Peter is committed doe sequestre and reiect both the and her the Empresse he meaneth from the receauing of the immaculate misteries of Christ our god The bishop or clerck within the ordre of the holye churche of god which shall presume what so euer he be from the time that these letters conteining the band of our â—xcommunication shall come to your knowledge to ministre the sacrameÌ„tes vnto yow him pronounce I depriued of his dignitie Nowe if he had then auctoritie ouer Constantinople in the Grieke churche whie doe yowe at thiese dayes M. Iuell thrust him out of Englande in the Latine churche S. Hierom as yow harde before called the B. of Rome chief prieste and successor to Peter If he had not thought as he saide would he euer haue penned his faithe and sent it to him to be allowed with thiese wordes Haec est fides beatissime papa quaÌ„ in ecclesia Catholica didicimus quamque semper tenuimus tenemus In qua si minus perité aut paruÌ„ cauté aliquid forté posituÌ„ est â–ª emendari a te cupimus qui Petri fideÌ„ fedeÌ„ tenes c. This is that faithe most blessed pope which I haue learned in the catholike churche and which I haue euer hetherto mainteined and still doe In to the which if anie thing by me be either not cunningly or without due circumspection infarsed or put in that desire I by yow to be corrected who possesse bothe the faithe and seate of Peter And if this confession of my faithe be by the iudgement of your apostleship alowed who so euer he be
so odiouse a thinge was in his eares the name of the churche that for the worde churche he gaue the worde Reipub. coÌ„mon welthe Much like honestie showed an other of youre coÌ„panions in translating the Grieke writer of the ecclesiasticall historie Socrates Who making mention of certeine lettres sent by Iulius then pope to the bishoppes assembled at Antioche wherein he repreheÌ„deth them that contrarie to the canons and rules of the churche theie had holden a Councell not calling him thither whereas by the order of the churche there maie be no Councell kepte withoute the auctoritie of the B of Rome He turned the wordes there maie be no lawes made or no councell holden into these there maie be no churches consecrate without the B. of Romes auctoritie Which wordes if they had bene so had giueÌ„ yet no small preeminence to the B. of Rome for whose licence to consecrate a churche theie shoulde be faine to runne from the fardest parte of the Easte churche to Rome in the west But seing this coulde by no meanes be the minde of the author who in that chapitre mencioneth not one worde of the dedicating of anie churche and that the complaint of the bishop had bene moste childishe and without all witte to haue saide that theie had done euel in not calling him to their councell because by the canons without his auctoritie there mighte be no churches consecrate and that also thereof he him selfe coulde not be ignorant it must necessarilie folowe that he did it of wicked malice In your doinges and allegations M. Iuell is your faithe the 〈◊〉 yowe and dealing any better No truly For if it had neuer woulde yow so falsely and vntruly haue alleaged the wordes of that excellent and learned bishop of blessed memory Steuin Gardiner B. of winchestre vpon whome in youre replie to M. Doctour Cole yow father these wordes as writteÌ„ by him in his booke called Marcus Anton. Constantius Quôd ait panem in sua substantia vel natura manere vel substantiam sentit Accidente vel naturâ— proprietatem and calle it a strange phrase of speache to say Substantiam accidente as truly it had bene if he had either so saide or written But because he did neither yow haue well signified to the worlde that it is no newe or straunge thing with yow to carie aboute in youre vnquiet heade a lieng sclaunderouse tongue The wordes of the bishop entreating of the place obiected by the heretike out of Gelasius arre these Quòd addit in sua substantia vel natura manere he meaneth panem vinum which wordes go before vel subsistentiam sentit accidentium vel naturae proprietatem The which how farre they differ from youres all men may see and youre selfe can not be ignorant This manner of dealing to laie to the catholikes charges wordes that they neuer spake vsed long ago Celsus the heretike as Origene reporteth of him But to let this passe if yow had ment which of all other in goddes matters especially yow ought to haue done to deale plainely simply and vprightely woulde yow euer haue brought ageinst the reading of sainctes liues in the churche the third councell of Carthage Woulde you haue alleaged the first parte of the canon Placuit vt praeter scriptur as canonic as nihil in ecclesia legatur that is we haue agreed that nothing be reade in the churche besides the canonicall scriptures and haue lefte oute the last Sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum vnder the name of holie scripture Wherebie might haue appeared that the scope of those fathers gathered together in that councell was not to banishe oute of the churche the legendes of sainctes liues but to agree vpon such bookes of holie scripture as the auctoritie whereof being oute of doubte theie woulde haue to be readen in the churche for scripture and no other And therefore in that canon we finde named for canonicall scripture to be reade in the churche the bookes of the Machabees the epistle of S. Paule to the Hebrues and also that of S. Iames all though theie be not enrolled in youre registâ—r of Genâ—ua And that this councell ment nothing lesse then to forbid the reading of sainctes liues in the churche the other wordes that folowe if yowe had not guilefullie suppressed them woulde well haue declared where the same councell by expresse wordes permitteth that yearelie on the martirs daies their liues maie be reade in the churche Thus plaide yow before with the decree of Anacletus excepte yowe will saie that there yowe cut of the first parte and here yowe left oute the last Thus alleaged yow corruptelie the wordes of Leo his epistle which being that the prieste maie celebrate Masse offer the sacrifice because yowe woulde not haue those wordes sticke in youre readers teethe yowe wer so bolde to change with him and as the englishe prouerbe hath to steale a goose and sticke in her place a fether Whereas for those wordes yowe saie that Leo permitteth the prieste to ministre two or three communions in one daie Thus till yowe coate the place where yowe finde those wordes will we saie that yowe haue sarued Theophilus Alexandrinus as before in the article of communion vnder one kinde I haue noted Thus alleaged yow once in a sermon that yow made in S. Peters churche in Oxford in the Lent a saing of S. Austen for the mariage of votaries then which neither he nor all the other fathers that euer wrote haue or can speake more directlie ageinst them And yet yow so cunning a Maister yow ar in youre arte made it iust to serue youre purpose For whereas S. Austens wordes ar these Quapropter non possum dicere a proposito meliori lapsas si nupserint foeminas adulteria esse non coniugia Sed planè non dubitauerim dicere lapsus ruinas à castitate sanctiori quae vouetur Deo adulterijs esse peiores that is wherefore I can not saie that such women if theie fall from their better purpose and marie that this is adulterie and not mariage but this I dare be bolde to saie that the falling and sliding awaie from holie chastite vowed to god is worse then adulterie yow deuide the senteÌ„ce iust in the middest and where he saithe that he caÌ„not calle such mariages adulterie that swete soppe yowe keepe for youre owne toothe but that which foloweth that he dareth be bolde to call such manner of dealing worse then adulterie that sower sauce yow make no mention of at all but leaue it to such scrupulouse consciences as will not breake their fast with youre deintie delicates Thus much touching youre vneuen dealing in Christes cause Whereof I can saie no more but hartelie praie to god that bothe yowe and as manie take youre parte maie earnestlie repent and be hartely sorie therefore YOVRE rebellion and open war proclaimed agenst youre prince your sacking his townes your robbing his treasour your
A PROVFE OF CERTEYNE ARTICLES IN RELIGION DENIED BY M. IVELL sett furth in defence of the Catholyke beleef therein by Thomas Dorman Bachiler of Diuinite VVHERE VNTO is added in the end a conclusion conteinyng .xij. Causes vvhereby the Author acknovvlegeth hym self to haue byn stayd in hys olde Catholyke fayth that he vvas baptized in vvysshyng the same to be made common to many for the lyke stay in these perilouse tymes Augustinus contra literas Petiliani lib. 2. cap. 16. Si quaeras quibus fructibus vos esse potius lupos rapaces cognoscamus obijcio schismatiâ— trimeâ— quod tu negabis ego autem statim probabo Nequé enim communicas omnibus gentibus illis ecclesijs Apostolico labore fundatis that is to say If thou demaundest he speaketh to Petilian the Heretick by vvhat fruictes I knovv you to be rather the rauening vvolues I obiect to you the fault of scisme vvhich thou vvilt deny but I vvil out of hand proue for thou doest not communicat vvith all Nacions nor vvith those churches founded by th'apostles labour Imprinted at Antwerp by Iohn Latius at the signe of the Rape with Priuilege Anno 1564. REgiae Maiestatis Priuilegio permissum est Thomae Dormanno sacrae Theologiae Baccalaureo vti per aliquem Typographorum admissorum impuneâ—e ei liceat imprimi curare per omnes suae ditionis Regiones distrahere Librum inscriptum A prouf of certeyn articles in religion denyed by M. Iuell omnibus alâ—s inhibitum ne eundem absque eiusdem Thomae consensu imprimant velalibi impressum distrahant sub poena in Priuilegio contenta Datum Bruxellae 14. Iul. Anno. 1564. Subsig Facuwez TO THE RYGHT VVORSHIPFVLL MASTER Thomas Hardyng Doctor of Diuinite Thomas Dorman Bachiler of the same sendeth gretyng and wyssheth health of bodye and soule IT prycketh now fast if my memory fayle me not ryght worshipfull sir towardes the poyncte of seuenteen yeares when I beyng a yong nouyce of Caluyns relygyon was fyrst by my frendes brought to that famouse schole at Wynchester of bishop VVyckham hys foundation At which tyme it pleased you of your goodnes beyng then one of them who had for that yeare the right and auctoritie in that behalf without monye without rewarde without commendation of frendes apon the onlye contemplacion and respect of my pooer and nedye estate and some lyttle hope perhapps conceiued hereof that once the tyme myght coÌ„me when I should not be alltogether vnprofytable eyther to my countrye that brought me forth eyther to the place that should nouryshe me vp to bestowe apon me beyng then a futer for that purpose your voyce or suffrage for th' obteinyng of a place emon gest the scholers there By the benefyte whereof I was the same yeare made one of that numbre brought home agayn to Chrystes churche from whence I was strayed and fynally haue obteyned that knowledge and small vn derstanding yfyet emongest the learned it may be accompted any to the which you now see me growen True ytis I can not denye yt that other helpes God hath sence that tyme prouyded for me to the furnyshyng and makyng perfect of that buyldyng the foundacion whereof by your handes he fyrst disposed to be layde To whome I mynde not nether to showe my self in tyme and place of so great benyfytes by them receaued eyther vnmyndfull or vnthanckfull In the meane season yf as next after God of that profytt which I haue taken in my studye what so euer yt be I accompt you for the author and verye founder thereof so I doe with the scripture askyng quis plantat vineam et de fructueius non comedit offer to you such as they ar the fyrst fruictes thereof for a taste and that apon the groundes of the law whych wyll that the most auncient debt be first discharges before all other none I trust of my other frendly cre dytours wyll be therewithall offended Thys hath byn ryght worshypfull sir the verye cause of my boldnesse in offeryng to you thys rude and symple treatyse of myne Wherein yf any offence on my part haue byn commytted impute it I praye you to the abundanâ—e of the great good will that I beare towardes you and the necessitie that I thought my self to stand in for the testifyeng of my mynd ready in some part to discharge as I was hable my dutye to you Fare you wel at Aquicinctum the seat of my banyshment your mastershyps to commaund Thom. Dorman TO THE READERS I Am not ignorant good Readers of the manyfold daungers wherinto what so euer he be he wyllyngly as yt wer casteth hym self who publysheth any thyng to the world in wrytyng The whych confy deration after that I had well weighed and deepely debated wyth my self of what mynde I was touchyng the sendyng abroade of thys lytle treatyfe of myne any man may easely iudge For I besydes those sawcy snaphaunces and murmuryng momi whome no mans doyngs can please but there owne which fortune I tooke to be common to me wyth many foresawe also my self not wythout good cause in apparence ready to fall in to the iust and lawfull reprehension euen of those whose iudgements I haue alwayes both loued and feared the wyser the learneder and the better sort also Whylest after so godly so graue so exact a worck most amply treatyng of the same matter I of all other moost vnfyt therefore should seeme to take pen in hand to wryte agayne This one cause appeared to me to be of such importance that I was euen fully resolued to stay my hand and trauell herein no farder When sodenly beholde emongest dyuerse other it camme to my mynde to thynck on the earnest desyre and godly greedy hunger of my pooer countrymen I meane not the Catholykes only but euen of those whome simplicitie not malice hath caused to stray whereof I was to my great comfort dayly enformed wyth what labour they fought for wyth what diligence they harckened after wyth what sauory appetyte they receaued in to ther myndes and as it wer deuoured such bookes as brought them any tydyngs of the truthe Whereapon I discoursed farder wyth my self that eâ—en as in a plague of famyn or dearthâ— he that hauyng in hys barnes no great stoare of corne but yet somme beyng once well mynded and charytably moued to employ part of that lytle which he had to the comfort and relyef of hys pooer hungrye neyghbours should in all mens iudgement doe verye â—uell yf afterward apon the liberall almoise of some welthyer man he should vtterly wythdrawe hys and because hys habylytie serueth hym not to gyue as muche gyue nothyng at all euen so me thought it fared wyth me who myndyng these two whole yeares past to conferre some part of that small prouysyon that allmyghty god hath bestowed on me to publyke coÌ„modytie could not now I perswaded my self suppresse and kepe in the same wythout the manyfest offendyng of hys holy spyryt who fyrst moued me
again And because good Christian readers you shall well perceaue that this is no nowe deuise or fantasie imagined by mâ— I will here lay before your eyes the iudgement of certein notable men whom god gaue to his churche to serue for a wall for the same ageinst the incursions of the wicked Phylistins his enemyes In whom you shal most plainely perceiue this ordre in Christes churche to be so necessarie that the onely breache or lack thâ—râ—of hath byn by them taken to be the highe way and very path that leadeth to all heresies And first to begyn wyth that blessed martyr of god S. Cyprian hath he not coÌ„cerning this matter in an epistle by hym written to Corâ—elius then bishop of Rome thiese wordes Neque enim aliunde obortae sunt haereses aut natâ—â— sunt schismata quà m indé quâ—â—d sacerdoti dei non obtemperatur necvnus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos et ad tempus iudex vice Christicogitatur that is neyther yet truely doe heresies aryse or schismes growe of any other cause then thereof that men obey not the priest of god neyther doe thinck that there is in the churche in the steed and place of Christ one prieste and one iudge for the time Hetherto S. Cyprian By the whych wordes good christian readers it is so euident that there must be one priest in the churche whom all other must obey that the same must be taken of vs for iudge here in earthe in the stede of Christe that you see I nothing doubt great cause to condeÌ„ne the grosse ignorance of our late apologie Wher in the authors contrary to thys doctrine of S. Cyprian most impudently pronounce that in hys church Christ our lord vseth not the help of any one man alone to gouern the same in his absence as he that standeth in neede of no such help and that if he did no mortall man could be found hable alone to doe the same and finally wyth the same S. Cyprian who dyed a holy martir and is no dout a saincte in heauen to whome the belief of both these two articles seemed not onely not impossible but also very necessary to lyue and dye in th' obedience of this priest and vnder such a iudge then wyth a sort of lewd losels in whose churche being a certein secret scattred congregation vnknowen to all the world beside and to their own fellowes toe is nother head ordre obedience neyther yet certein rules or groundes where on to stay to runne hedlong ye wot no more then your guides whither But S. Cyprian was he trow yow of this minde alone No verilie for S. Hierom is of the same as by thiese his wordes it is most euident Ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis pendet dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur poteâ—tas tot in ecclesâ—a efficientur schismata quot sacerdotes The health sayth he and welfare of the churche dependeth apoÌ„ the estimatioÌ„ of the chief priest who if he haue not auctoritie pearelesâ—e and aboue all other ye shall haue in the churche so many schismes as there be priestes And again in an other place speaking of the apostles he writeth thus Quòd vnus poâ—teà electus est qui caeteris praeponere tur in schismatis remedium factum est ne vnusquisque ad se trabens ecclesiane rumperet that is That one was afterward chosen to rule the rest that was donne for a remedy ageynst schismes least while euery man would chalenge to hym self the churche by such halyng and pullyng they might brâ—ake the same Leo of whom the whole councell of Calcedon as one of the greatest for nombre so of all men accoÌ„pted emongest the fower general for auctoritie reported so honorably that they did not onely wyth one voice all openly professe them selues to beleue as he did but called him also by the name of Sanctissimus beatissimus that is most holy and blessed of all other speaking of the mysticall body of Christes church writeth after this sort Haec conâ—exio totius quidem corporis vnanimitatem requirit c. This combination and ioining together he speaketh of the body of Christes church requireth an vnitie of the whole body but especîally of the priestes emongest whom although there be one dignitie common to them all yet is there not one generall ordre emongest them all For euen emongest the blessed apostles in that similitude of honor was there yet a differeÌ„ce of power and whereas in ther election they wer all lyke yet was yt giuen to one to be aboue all the rest Out of whych forme is taken our difference of bishops and by merueylouse ordre and disposition ys yt prouided that euery one should not chalenge to him self euery thing but that in euery prouince there should be one whose iudgement emongest the rest of his brethern should be chief and of most auctoritie And agein certein appoincted in greater cityes whose care should be greater by whome to the onely seate of Peter the charge of the vniuersal churche might haue recourse that nothing might at any time dissent from the head Hetherto haue yowe hard good readers beside th' experience that we haue of ciuile policy and worldly gouernement the opinions also of S. Cyprian S. Hierom and holy Leo all three agreiâ—g in one that there must nedes be one iudge in Christes churche in his steede that the health of the churche dependeth apon the auctoritie of the chief priest that if his auctoritie be not aboue all the rest there will so many schismes breake in apon vs as there be priestes that for th' auoyding of that mischief there was one chosen euen emongest th' apostles to gouern the rest Last of all that that vsage in christes churche to haue one head is no newe inuention as some men falsely report but taken from th' example of th' apostles them selues I can not heare stay to examyne curiously euery word in these auncient fathers but leauing that good readers to your discretion and not douting but that in these graue witnesses in a matter of such weight and importance as whereapon dependeth the health of the whole churche you wilbe no lesse diligent then you would be in examining the depositions of your owne witnesses or your aduersaries in a triall of landes or other temporall commoditie I shall procede to the coÌ„sideration of the second reason which before I touched of the people of Israel if I fyrst warne you to considre but this by the way that ye may trust those auncient fathers by ther word the better an other time how many schismes be burst in apoÌ„ vs in our country of England for one common receiued truthe in the dayes of our fathers when we remained in the obedience of one chief priest and iudge which shake now so myserably the same howe quietly in one loue in one truthe in one
for your soules Here considre I beseche yow that S. Paules placing of th'apostels and in them the bishops and priestes their successors in the first and chiefest place in Christes churche his calling of them the rulers thereof and appoincted so to be not by man but by the holie gost was not to deceiue vs. Remembre that if in matters of religioÌ„ the â—ishoppes and priestes should haue solowed the ciuile magistrates ordinaunces it had byn in vaine that Ignatius and Policarpus bad the people emperours and Kinges none excepted to be obedient and subiect to them For wherein should they be subiect or in what thing should they obey if not in religion and matters thereunto apperteining Reade ouer the auncient histories aswell of the Griekes as of the Latines peruse the doinges of Iues and Gentiles paganes heathen or what so euer people or nation yow list and yow shall neuer finde any to haue byn so barbarouse or far out of ordre that first they had not their religion and next their bishoppes and priestes to whome they wholie referred th'ordre and disposition thereof But to procede Chrisostom calleth the priestes the hart and stomack of the churche his reason is quia in rebus Spiritualibus per eos totus popâ—lus gubernatur because in spirituall gouernement all the people is gouerned by them Lo good readers here may yow see that in Chrisostomes time in that pure state of the primitiue churche all the people was in matters spirituall gouerned by not the kinges or other ciuile magistrates but the bisshoppes and priestes Then wer the priestes in those matters iudges and emperours them selues subiectes Then had emperours and kinges this persuasion that they could garnish their stile with none more excellent title or name more honorable then to be called the children of the churche Thus thought Constantinus the greate the first empâ—rour that is reported to haue openly professed Christ. who as Ruffinus witnesseth of him being present at the first generall councel of Nice which was assembled aboue twelue hundred yeares agoe had there deliuered vnto him certein libelles and billes of complaintes that the bishoppes had one of them put vp ageinst an other The which all as he receiued and put vp into his bosom so after that he had refused to be iudge in their causes affirming that it becaÌ„ not him to iudge them to whome god had giuen power to iudge him and that therefore their querels what so euer they wer they should referre to the iudgement of almighty god as hauing no other iudge emongest men he caused without once opening them to see the contentes to be throwen into the fier that the brawle and discord he said of priestes might neuer goe farder into the knowledge of men But here our aduersaries as blame theÌ„ I can not seing they will nedes be patrones to desperat causes if theie be glad to catche holde of a little will perhappes â—ay that I haue vndiscretely behaued my self in alleaging this auctoritie which fardereth me not so much one waie as it hindreth me an other in that by the historie it apâ—eareth that th'emperour sat in the councell with the bishoppes Well of th' alleaging of this place who is like to get shame and who honestie who to winne and who to lose therebie for our aduersaries also I am not ignorant thereof ar wont to bring this example for them the triall thereof I leaue till such time as it shalbe laied more whotly to my charge which shalbe hereafter in bringing to light such simple store as they haue gathered together for the confirmation of their parte from th' examples of such emperours as sence christes time haue reigned Yeat this may I be bould to say in the meane season that as Constantinus sat in the councell with the bishoppes there was neuer yet emperour nor kinge for bidden I dare well say to sitte nor neuer I trowe shall And ouer this that in there being it is not very likely that he encroched any thing apon the spirituall iurisdiction bothe by that which yow haue hard before and also for this that being on a time as S. Austen reporteth of him required by the Donatistes to take apon him the hearing of the cause which depended betwene them and Cecilian th'archebishop of Carthage he refused to meddle there with all because saith he non est ausus de causaeepiscopi iudicare because he durst not be iudge in a bisshops cause But leauing this for the while let vs examine the doings of other good and catholike emperours Valentinianus th'emperour was from that desire of gouerning in churche matters and ecclesiasticall causes so far that as Sozomenus writeth of him being required on the behalf of the bishoppes that inhabited the partes of Hellespontus and Bithinia that he would vouchesauf to be present with them to entreat of certein pointes in religion to be refourmed he made them this asnwer To me being one of the people it is not laufull to search out such thinges But the priestes to whome the charge thereof belongeth let them assemble them selues where they list This is the same ValentiniaÌ„ who willing the bishoppes to chose a meete man to the see of Millain being by the deathe of Auxentius then voide vsed to theâ— thiese wordes Talem in pontificali constituite sede cui nos qui guberâ—amus imperium sincerâ— nostra capita submittamus cuius â—onita dum tanquam homines deliquerimus necessariò velut curantis medicamenta suscipiamus that is to say Choose yow such a bishop as to whome eueÌ„ we which gouerne the empire may syncerely submit our selues and whose monicions while like men we fall as pacients doe the phisicions receiptes we may necessarily receiue This to be short is he which would not so much as be present wheÌ„ Sixtus the B. of Rome was charged with certein accusations but rising from the councel left him to be iudged of him self His sonne also Valentinian succeding his father in th'empire proclaymed he him self chief gouernor in causes ecclesiasticall True it is that being yet a childe and seduced by his wicked mother Iustina to fauour the horrible heresie of the Arrians he began to affect that title But after S. Ambrose like a true bishop and faithefull councelor had tolde him that it apperteigned not to him to pretend any auctoritâ—e or right to meddle with the ouersight of gods matters that to him belonged his palaces and to the priestes the churches that he should not auaunce him self but be subiect to god and giue to hiÌ„ that wich was his reseruing to Cesar that which was Cesars after that he had proposed to him the example of his father who not onelie in wordes saide that it was not his parte to iudge emongest the bishoppes but established also a lawe that in causes of faithe and religion yea in th'examination of the maners of bishoppes and priestes onelie â—ishoppes
should be iudges after that he had willed him to searche the scriptures where he should finde that bishoppes ought in matters of faithe to be iudges ouer Emperours not they contrariwise ouâ—r bishoppes After that he had bidden him call to his remeÌ„braunce if euer he so much as hard that in a matter of faithe thelay meÌ„ weriudges ouer the bishoppes and finally told him that if he should giue him such councell or being vnminderfull of that right which belongeth to priestehod coÌ„mit that to other which god had giuen to him that he should not then treade in the vpright pathes of trâ—th and simplicitie but walck in the crooked way of adulatioÌ„ and flatterie and that at the lenght he should he douted not him self as he grewe to more ripenes in yeares well vnderstand what maÌ„ner of bishop that wer that would submit the auctoritie of priestes to the iudgemeÌ„t oflay men After I saie all thiese persuasioÌ„s he found that good emperour so well â—eclaimed that him self reporteth of 〈◊〉 an epistle which he wrote to Theodosius that where before he persecuted him nowe he loued him where before he tooke him for his mortall enemy nowe he reuereÌ„ced him as his father Which S. Ambrose neuer yelding in his or 〈◊〉 gods right the emperour would neueâ— vndoutedly haue doen had he not well knowen that S. Ambrose was in the right and he in the wrong What should I here alleage the wordes of Basilius the emperour who being present at the eight siâ—ode the fourth of Constantâ—nople made there a notable orâ—tion in the which to the 〈◊〉 he vsed thiese wordes De vobis autem 〈◊〉 etc. â— of you that ar lay men whether yow besuch as haue dignities in the common weale or none I haue no more to saie but that in no wise it is lawfull for yow to dispute or reason of causes ecclesiasticall For to searche out those thinges it belongeth to the patriarches the bishoppes and the priestes who haue receiued the office to rule who haue the power to sanctify to lose and to binde in whose handes ar the ecclesiasticall and heauenlie keies not vnto vs who must be fedde who haue nede to be sanctified to be bound and to be released frâ—Ì„ our bandes For the lay man of how greate deuotion and wisedom so euer he be yea although he haue all the vertue that is possible to be in a man yet whilest he is a laie man he is in the place of a shepe Hetherto Basilius the emperour to whome I might ioine bothe the doinges and saienges of many other wer it not that euen of those earthely rulers who haue byn tyrants and persecutors of the christians we want not yet examples to beate downe thiese beastelie flatterers with all Emongest a nombre of the which that might be here brought I shall for this time be contented to alleage onelie three Gallio the proconsul of Achaia Theodoricus king of the Gothes and Aurelianus th'emperour of Rome Of whom the first although he wer an infidell yet refused he to heâ—re the accusations layd in at CorinthuÌ„ ageinst S. Paul and saied in plain wordes Ego iudex horuÌ„esâ—e nolo I will not take on me to iudge in thiese matters because th'accusation concerned religion where with he had nothing to doâ— The second although an Arrian yet would not presume to be present at a certein councell of bishoppes whereunto he was called but modestlie excusing him self made this answer that in matters of the church he had nothing to doe but onelie to beare towardes them his reuerence The third being an ethnike and of the Christians a cruel persecutor when the catholike bishoppes who had excoÌ„municated the heretike Paulus Samosatenus and depriued him of his bishoprike resorted to him for his help touching the remouing of the said Paulus out of the mansion house belonging thereto the possession whereof he then kept would not take apon him the knowledge of this matter where bishoppes wer parties but referred the iudgement thereof to the bishoppes of Italie and Rome If heretikes good Readers tirantes and Ethnikes wer yet so modest that they would not or of the wrath of god which brooseth into fitters the proudest of the all like the sherdes of a potters pot as continually was represented vnto ther eyes by the terrible examples of the two kinges Ozias and oza so fearefull that they durst not with Saul cut any parte of Samuels coate with Oziasinuade the priestes office and straie out of the limites of that iurisdiction which god had giuen to them what may then the kinges and princes of our age say who by thiese â—urious fire â—randes haue bene so farre abused that they haue not douted to take on them that which heretikes and miscreants of coÌ„science haue refused For this by the way is well to be noted that as thiese being heretikes and Ethnikes refused to intrude them selues in to ecclesiasticall iurisdiction so was there neuer emperour sence first they became Christened onlesse he wer him selfe an heretike or by heretikes set on that attempted to doe otherwise and that immediatly in so doing what so euer he wer as he was by heretikes mainteined so by good and catholike bishoppes such as of whose bothe vertue and learning no ma douteth was he both earnestly and sharpely reproued And here to begin with that inconstant Constantius who of a catholike emperour becam a wicked Arrian in whose time as Socrates reporteth there wer no â—ewer them nine faithes When he began to take apon him the part of Ozias the priestes office in deciding questions and matters of religioÌ„ in deposing the catholike bishoppes and placing Arrians in their roomes in prisoning some in banishing moe in vexing and disquieting all had not god thincke yow his Azarias ready to matche with him Was not there first â—iberius the pope of whom when he meddeling in matters of religion most earnestly required that he would subscribe against A thanasius promising on the one side greate rewardes if he did and threatening on the other exquisite tormentes if he refused he receiued this answer Non ita â—e habet ecclesiasticus canon neque vnquam accepimus talem a patribus traditionem Quod si omnino Imperator curam suam pro ecclesiastica pace ininterponere quaerit aut scripta à nobis pro Athanasio deleri iubet deleantur quoqué ea quae contra eum scriptasunt fiatquè deinde ecclesiaflicasynodus vbi nec Imperator praestò sit nec Comes se ingerat nec iudex minetur The rules of the churche quoth he teache vs no such thing nor we neuer receiued of our fathers any such tradition But if the emperour will nedes be carefull in procuring the peace of the churche or coÌ„maund that I retract those thinges which I haue written in the behalfe of Athanasius let them also be called in that haue byn written against him and let there be after that an
occupation and so maie not I who I thanck god therefore am none of the company will take the paines to stoope and doe it for them It foloweth in Theodoretus after he had mentioned the oration which Constantin had in the councell Haec his similia tanquaÌ„ fiâ—â—us amator pacis sacerdotibus veluti patribus offerâ—bat These wordes and such like as a sonne that loued peace he offred vp to the priestes as to his fathers Lo good readers was not here trow yow a greate president for our Emperours and kinges to meddle with the ordre of religion Well he was as the histories beare witnes the first christian emperour that openly professed the faithe and name of Christ for of Phillip the histories make no greate accompt and before that time the church was gouerned either by infidleles and tirantes as Nero Domitianus and such other or by priestes or by none And this was the very cause that they would so faine haue wonne to their parte the first Christian emperour The next example that they bring is of Theodosius th'emperour that he not onely sat emongest the bishoppes but was also the verie chief of the conference betwene the Catholykes and the Arrians That Theodosius did in this matter nothing of him self but all by the councell of Nectarius the B. of Constantinople had not our aduersaries as they did before in th'example of Constantine mangled the historie any man might easely haue perceuid For reade the beginning of the chapiter where this matter is mencioned and yow shall finde that Theodosius called to him Nectarius then B. of Constantinople asked of him his aduice what ordre wer best to be taken for thappeasing of that schisme which then so miserably troubled the churche and finallie embrased him self and commaunded all other to receiue the same doctrine not which him self had determined to be true but which Nectarius and the other catholyke bishoppes had deliuered and commendid to him And truly maruell had it byn if he had otherwise doen in matters of religion any thing to the preiudice of that auctoritie which bishoppes and priestes of right ought to haue in those matters who at other times had so often declared his minde persuaded to the contrary and namelie in that councell that he caused to be assembled at Aquileia where in the sommons of that Sinode he openlie protested that controuersies arising apon matters of doctrine can not be better tried then by being referred to the bishoppes that they quoth he from whome the very groundes and principles of doctrine haue proceded may if there fall out anie doubtes dissolue the same For the which wordes being afterward rehersed in the councell it appeareth how greately S. Ambrose praised him when he saide openlie Behold what ordre the christian emperour hathe taken he will not doe anie iniurie to the priestes he referreth to the bishoppes the interpretation of all doubtes If Theodosius had taken apoÌ„ him to iudge in matters of faithe being a lay man coulde S. Ambrose thincke yow that florished vnder him haue byn ignorant thereof If he could not would he haue praised him for that he did not would he haue asked of Valentinianus the yonger beginning in his youthe although he after repeÌ„tid to encroche apoÌ„ the spirituall limites and iurisdiction Quando audisti clementissime imperator in causa fidei Laicos de Episcopo iudicasse when did yow euer heare most gentle emperour that in matters of faith lay men haue iudged of the bishoppes doinges Might he not haue answered if it had bene as our aduersaries say I haue not hard onelie but knoweÌ„ also by experience that mine owne felowe in the empire Theodosius hath doen so So that hereapon we may be bould probably to conclude S. Ambrose vertue wisdome lerning long experience and greate practise in Christes churche well coÌ„sidered that Theodosius atteÌ„pted no such matter nor did anie thing in religion without the councell of such bishoppes as being catholike enstructed him what he should doe for thaduauncement and setting forwarde of Christes catholyke faithe It foloweth in the apologie In the couÌ„cel of CalcedoÌ„ the ciuile magistrate condeÌ„ned for heretikes by his senteÌ„ce Dioscorus Iuuenalis Thalassius being all bishoppes and iudged them vvorthy to be degraded Here would I faine knowe in what place or where they finde this historie written If they saie in the. 5. booke and tenth chap. of Socrates historie as the place is in the margent coated I must nedes tell them that the place hauing byn there sought for can not be found And as littell hope is there of finding the same elles where if a man maie beleue vehemeÌ„t presumptions For if in that couÌ„cell Iuuenalis and Thalassius had bene at all condeÌ„ned by any magistrat either ecclesiasticall or ciuile as well should it of all likelihood haue byn mencioned in the actes and recordes of the couÌ„cell of Calcedon as was the condemnatioÌ„ of Dioscorus they being all accused and partakers of one crime True it is although in the place by theÌ„ alleaged there be no such thing that in the actes yet of the councell we finde a record where the ciuile magistrates consented that Dioscorus had well deserued to be of his bishoprick depriued and of all priestely dignitie degraded But how I beseche yow diligently to considre if to the bishoppes to whome god had committed the charge to giue that sentence it should so seme good And thiese ar not my wordes but his that was sent from the whole councell to Dioscorus who then after the manner of all heretikes fled from the face of the councell and lurcked I wot not where Ioannes the bishop of Germanicia who after he had told him in what termes he stoode that was condemned by the whole councell he added this clause Si hoc placuisset sanctissimis episcopis quibus hanc inferre a domino deo creditum est if it so semed good to the holy bishoppes to whome god had committed the power to giue that sentence This sentence afterwarde the said Dioscorus continuing in his obstinacie was by the whole councell alowed and by the legates of the bishop of Rome in his name pronounced no mans name subscribed or consent asked thereto besides the onelie bishoppes And thus much for Dioscorus for of Iuuenalis and Thalassius till they show where and when they wer condemned for heretikes and worthy to be degraded I can saie nothing Although this in the meane season I may boldelie say that if they the ciuile magistrates I meane gaue anie such sentence it is verie likely that they would qualifie it as yow hard before that they did in Dioscorus with this adiection if the bishoppes thinck good to whom that matter belongeth Which if they did what haue they then gotten by th'alleaging of such a sentence I praie yow The next proufe that they bring is out of the third councell of Constantinople where Constantinus they say did not onelie sit emongest the bishoppes
but subscribed also with them to the councell To this I answer that this being graunted that Constantinus sat in the councell and subscribed also thereto neither weakeneth our parte nor streÌ„gtheneth theirs For who euer yet denyed that Christian emperours might not be present at the councelles yea and subscribe thereunto also The thing wherein we differ from them is in the onely manner of subscribing For we saie that the bisshoppes subscribed as defining and iudging the emperours as folowing and coÌ„senting that the bishoppes ar necessary parsons in the councelles as without whome they can not be kept that the emperours ar ornamentes and not of the substance The which difference of their presence and the cause thereof there if it wer by no place elles to be proued this onelie testimony which I will here alleage of the councell of CalcedoÌ„ written by the whole consent of the fathers and others there assembled to Leo then pope where they all professed that he as the head was in his legats that there supplyed his roome of all the rest as membres the gouern our and that the emperours gouerned there ad ornandum to be an ornament woulde be sufficient to persuade This thing would also most manifestly haue appeared if our aduersaries had faithefully alleaged the wordes which the emperour vsed in subscribing which wer after the subscription of all the bishoppes a hundred and seuenty in nombre thiese Legimus consensimus we haue readen and giuen our consent Whereas the subscription of euerie bishop was Definiens subscripsi I defining haue subscribed And thus should they if they will nedes glory of the emperours subscribing haue alleaged this example that thereby might haue byn perceiued the manifest difference betwene conâ—enting in the one and defining in the other that men might yet at the least haue wondred if emperours and kinges bare the sway in religion and ruled all if the bishoppes and priestes wer their vnderlinges and gouerned by them what should then meane that strange manner of subscribing in them that should leade and rule to say they subscribe consenting whereas the bishoppes that should be ruled by them write that they subscribe determining and defining And thus much touching the diuersitie of subscribing betwene the bishoppes and the emperours whereby may easely be iudged what auctoritie th'emperour and ciuile magistrate had in the councell As for th'other difference wherein they and we vary that th'emperours presence in the councell is not of the substance thereof as is the bishoppes they I thinck them selues except they will say that the first councell assembled after Christes ascension in Ierusalem was of no force or of lesse as though there wer not all the parsones necessary for the holding thereof will not deny No more then we doe this that emperours haue vsed to be present at such councels as haue byn kept and subscribed also thereto but alwayes as for the suerer confirmation and trusty execution and yeat not that with the better sort neither but with such as regarded more and stoode in greater awe of present punishement in this world then of goddes indignation in an other of such thinges as wer agreed apon there that they seing th'emperours and rulers of the world in worldely matters assenting thereunto that the which they feared not in the bishoppes and priestes propter conscientiam they might feare in the ciuile magistrates propterâ—iram Thus deny we not that many yeares before this in the second councel Aurasicane subscribed to the doinges of the councell those notable lay men the example also of whome our aduersaries obiect ageinst vs Petrus Marcellinus Felix and Liberius But ô lord god I would once at the length they woulde alleage such thinges as they bring ageinst vs simply truely and as they finde them in the originals with their circumstances Then should they haue told vs that as these men subscribed to the councell so was it by licence of the fathers Then would we haue asked of them why bring you then to vs that example that maketh not onely not at all for yow but also much ageinst yow But how I proue this perhappes yow will aske Forsooth by the actes of the same couÌ„cel about th'ende thereof Where I finde these wordes spoken by the fathers Et quia definitionem antiquor um patrum nostrámqâ—e que suprascriptaest non solum religiosis sed etiam Laicis medicamentum esse desideramus cupimus Placuit vt etiam illustres acmagnifici viri qui nobiscum ad praefatam festiuitatem conuenerunt propria manu subscriberent And forasmuch say they as our desire is that those thinges which be aboue written defined of old time by th'auncient fathers and now presently by vs should be not to the cleargy onely auaileable but to the profit and health of the laytie also it pleaseth vs that those noble men that haue byn assembled with vs at this present councell or solemnitie should also with their owne handes subscribe to the actes thereof Here note I beseche yow good Readers this word placuit it hath pleased vs or wear content Is this thincke yowe a phrase of speche meete for them that can doe no other If these lay men had subscribed by their owne right as hauing an interest thereunto would the bishoppes in the councell haue euer showed them selues so presumptuously foolish as to say to them it pleaseth vs that yow subscribe who might haue answered them by the rule of the lawe Eius est velle cuius est nolle what tell yowe vs that yow ar coÌ„tented who can neither will nor choose he maie onely say he will or is contented that can say the contrary that is that he will not or is not coÌ„tented Doeth not this place argue most manifestly ageinst theÌ„ that the ordre touching matters of religion was all in the bishoppes handeâ— as to whose doinges they could not so much as witnesse their consent by subscribing vnlesse the bishoppes had first coÌ„sented thereto yea trulie doeth it except we haue of those wise and learned fathers that opinion that we thinck they wer all starcke fooles As any maÌ„ might haue of our countrefeict bishoppes in England if they should assemble together and agree that euery Baron within the realme should haue a voice in the parlyament house Thys therefore being presupposed as till they be hable to showe the contrary it must that those bishoppes had their right wittes and knew what they did this argument holdeth verie well The fathers assembled in the councell Aurasican wer contented that laie men that wer there should subscribe to the councell with the cleargie Ergo they might haue chosen And then howe maketh th'auctoritie of this example for them Nay who seeth not howe much it maketh ageinst them It foloweth that IustiniaÌ„ being a Christian emperour deposed yet notwithstanding two popes Siluerius and Vigilius Hereby our aduersaries thinck to haue not a littel help to proue the superioritie
bishoppes in nombre 318. roborate or confirmed non deberi absque R. pontificis sententia celebrari concilia nec Episcopos damnari that without the auctoritie of the B. of Rome neither councelles should be kepte nor bishops condemned So that herebie we may gather that it was before taken for a truthe but then by reason of some busie braines that began to call it in to question by the iudgement of the councell confirmed and put out of all doubte Who but he excommunicated all the churches of Asia and prouinces bordering apon it no man finding fault with the doing thereof for lacke of iurisdiction which would no doubte where partes be taken as at that time there wer aboute the keping of the Easter daye of all other things first haue bene espied and reprehended if it had bene doen with out auctoritie although some complained of ouer much rigour and would haue wisshed a little more discretion in Victor then pope which did it But to goe forwarde in thexamples of thauncient councels To whome did the second generall councell gathered at Constantinople declare that the honour of being chief ouer all other bishops did apperteigne To anie other then to the bishop of Rome In whose place was Cirillus president of the thirde generall councell holden at Ephesus but in the B. of Rome his Whome called the fowerth generall councell of Calcedon vniuersae ecclesiae episcopum bishop or ouersear of the vniuersall churche but him Who commaunded the bodie of the same councell that theie should in no wise suffer Dioscorus the bishoppe of Alexandria to sit emongest them but the pope by his legates Whie was Lucentius one of the popes legates forbidden at the same time to accuse Dioscorus but because the fathers tould him that the parsons of the iudge and th'accuser must be distincte â–ª and that the iudge might in no wise take on him the others name or office And howe was Lucentius emongest them a iudge because he represented the popes parson And whie was the pope his maister iudge because he was the chief iudge and heade in earthe of the churche Can yow tell anie other cause M. Iuell And for this cause Lucentius gaue ouer and Eusebius an other bishop accused him Finallie to make an ende with this councell of Calcedon knowe ye that after manie reasons on bothe sides and long debating toe and fro in the same touching the B. of Rome his prerogatiue the fathers at the length concluded the matter and knit vp the knot in this wise Ex his quae gesta sunt vel ab vnoquoque deposita perpendimus omnem quidem primatum honorem praecipiâ—um secundum canones antiquae Romae Deo amantissimo archiepiscopo confirmari That is to saie By those thinges which haue passed emongest vs or haue bene by euerie one of vs alleaged we perceiue according to the canons all souerentie and chief â—onour to be confirmed to the welbelouid of god tharchebishop of olde Rome Note here I beseche yowe good indifferent readers which a littell before I noted to you out of Athanasius alleaging for the B â–ª of Rome his sâ—â—erioritie the first councell of Nice that the councell of Calcedon determined here no newe thing of the popes auctoritie but confessed them selues by boulting out the truthe to haue founde that the canons and rules of the churche in times past had giuen him that chief honour aboue all other and that therefore theie perceiued that by them it ought to be confirmed What can we here thincke of the councell of Calcedon referring it selfe to the canons but that it meÌ„t of the councell of Constantinople and Nice going before And of the councel of Nice what can we iudge but that their confirmation had relation to the verie institution of Christe him selfe The fathers assembled in the two councels of Carthage and Mileuite of whome S. AusteÌ„ was one wrote vnto Innocentius then pope of Rome to confirme their doings ageinst the two heretikes Pelagius and Celestius The who le councell of Carthage writing to the pope did so theie saide vt statutis suae mediocritatis etiaÌ„ apostolicae sedis adhiâ—eatur authoritas to the entent that to their ordonaÌ„ces which wer but of meane auctoritie the weight and maiestie of th'apostolicall seate might adde the more The fathers in the councell Mileuitan of their writing for the confirmation of their decrees alleaged this to be the cause Quia te Dominus gratiae suae praecipuo munere in sede apostolica collocauit that is because our lorde hath placed yow by the gift of his especiall grace in the apostolicall seate To the first of these two councels Innocentius the pope making answer how doeth he praise and extoll the fathers for that that theie not leaning to their owne iudgementes had obseruing th' examples of auncient traditions and being mindefull of the ecclesiasticall discipline not contemning the ordinaunces of the fathers in times past who decreed not by the sentence of man but of god him selfe that the determination of all doubtes should be reserued to the See of Rome from whence all other churches should receaue the same none otherwise then as all waters procede from the heade spring referred the whole processe of their doinges to his iudgement To the other councell he made answer that theie had behaued theÌ„ selues bothe diligentlie and decentlie in regarding th' apostles honour his honour quoth he I saie who beside the care of externall thinges hath also to prouide for all churches in asking what was to be folowed in doutefull matters wherein he saide theie had folowed the forme of the auncient rule He added also that as ofteÌ„ as there was anie doubte of matters of faithe his brothers and fellow bishoppes should referre the same to no other but to Peter in which doing theie should refer theÌ„ to the giuer bothe of that name and the honour belonging theretoe with manie oâ—her wordes to this ende And last of all in the same letters he excommunicated bothe Pelagius and Celestius commaunding that his sentence remained inuiolable that they entred not in to the churches that theie shoulde haue no pastorall charge but yet that if theie repented pardon should not be denied them Here perhappes some one will aske of me why passing ouer the notable testimonies touching this matter of Anacletus Clemens Euaristus Alexander Xistus Telesphours of whome the last liued within seuen score yeres after Christe I rather allege Innocentius who although he be also auncieÌ„t as liâ—ing well neare eleuen hundred yeres agoe and proue right well â—he point for the which he is brought in might yet either for the one respect or the other haue giuen place to any of them To whome I make this answer that as I haue willingly and wittingly suffered my selfe to lacke such necessarie defence for the proufe of this controuersie as out of the writinges of such graue fathers and holie martirs
our aduersaries them selues I appeale to their consciences knowe right well that we might abundantlie and in greate store haue heaped together onelie because the gainesaiers might happelie haue excepted ageinst them that not with standing they wer martirs and in the whole course of their liues verie apostles yet because they wer bishoppes of Rome theie wer not in that cause which was their owne indifferent witnesses so would I also haue forborne the alleaging of this answer of Innocentius for the same cause had it not bene that S. Austen him selfe had iustified his parson ageinst our aduersaries in this behalfe For he writing to one Paulinus a bishoppe after long discoursing with him touching the heretikes Pelagius and Celestius telleth him at the length howe the councels of Carthage and Mileuite had written about them and their heresies to Innocentius the pope not onelie the certificate of their doinges but also certeine familier letters beside To all the which saieth he ille no bis rescripsit eodeâ— modo quo fas erat atque oportebat apostolicae sedis antistitem he answered vs by his lettres againe euen as it was right and as was for the B. of the apostolicall See meete Nowe I praie yowe considre here with your selues good Readers â–ª if Innocentius when he wrote to these fathers to auaunce him selfe and his See had being led thereunto by blinde affection without the warrant of goddes worde the vsage of the churche the auctoritie of the canons praised them that keping and obseruing the examples of antiquitie and hauing in remembrance the ecclesiasticall discipline they had referred as theie ought their doinges to his iudgement if he had besides borne them in hande that the auncient fathers had decreed not by mannes iudgement but by goddes him selfe that what so euer wer to be doen wer it of those prouinces that wer neare to Rome or far of it should not be determined before that it wer brought to the knowledge of that seate of his if he had excommunicate Pelagius and Celestius without auctoritie and finallie doen and saide so manie thinges as ar in his saide epistles more at large to be sene for the prerogatiue of his churche and all false howe had then S. Austen saide trulie that he answered in all pointes aright and as the B. of the apostolicall seate shoulde Shall we thincke that S. Austen was ignorant and so deceauid or that he flattred and so lied Orcan we iustly thincke that S. Austen if he had not taken him as heade of the churche would euer haue willed him to haue cited Pelagius being not then in Britaine but in the east partes as in the same epistle it appeareth to co me to Rome But thus much be saide by the waie to that question whie I rather vse the auctoritie of Innocentius then anie of those other popes before him I might here bring furth for examples alowed of the primitiue churche seing hetherto they haue bene practised and neuer disalowed howe that Vrsatius and Valens two ringleaders and chiefe capitaines emongest the Arrians at the length being wearie of their heresies and har telie sorie therefore of alâ— the bishoppes in the worlde went to no other but to onelie Iulius the pope to be absolued and by him receiued into the churche and admitted to the coÌ„munion and coÌ„panie of the faithefull as witnesseth Epiphanius and other howe that the same Iulius restored to their bishoprikes being vniustely depriued Athanasius to Alexandria Paulus to Constantinople Marcellus to Ancyra and Asclepas to Gaza all in the East churche and therefore impossible to haue bene doeÌ„ had not his auctoritie bene vniuersall I might here put yow in remembrance of a nombre of bishoppes of Rome that wrote their lettres in to the fardest parte of the worlde sometimes commaunding other whiles forbidding this or that of the like that directed their commissions to this bishop and to that to execute their auctoritie in countries and prouincies far from Rome as namelie to passe ouer Pius Victor Fabianus and such other of Leo the first who in Grece and the countries bordering thereapoÌ„ appointed the B. of Thessalonia in Fraunce the B. of Arles and in Spaine Hormisdas an other bishoppe to be his vicaires and deputes in those parties Which had bene a matter of all other to be laughed at if they writing such letters and making such delegations had had nothing or no more to doe there then other men But omitting manie other bothe before and sence that haue doen the like I shall at this time onelie alleage Gregorie the first of that name him rather then anie of the rest because in this controuersie yowe beare your selfe on his auctoritie so bolde Did not he ordeine that Maximianus the B. of Siracusa should in his stede ouersee all the churches of Scicilie Did he not write his lettres to all the bishoppes of Numidia coÌ„maunding them that they should giue ordres to no Donatistes Did he not direct his letters to Adeodatus the metropolitane of Numidia to take good heede that none wer promoted to holy ordres by mony And will yow yet M. Iuell hearing this persist in your lewde opinion that S. Gregorie then whome emongest all that range of bishops that haue either gone before him or folowed after yowe coulde neuer haue founde one that more maketh in this point for the catholike faithe and lesse for yow should be a patrone of your heresie But because it maie the better appeare to all men in what distresse yow ar that be driuen to such shamefull shiftes and extreme refuges for the vpholding of your newe founde religion I shall here occasion so aptelie offering it selfe examine that place of S. Gregorie which yowe tosse so coÌ„monlie in your mouthes repete so often in your bookes where he sharpe lie reprehendeth Iohn the B. of Constantinople for taking apon him the name of vniuersall bishop a title alltogether he saithe prophane and mete for antichriste a title which Leo his predecessour hauing offred vnto him by the whole councell of Calcedon refused Thus hath S. Gregorie To this auctoritie the trâ—the it selfe compelling me I must nedes folowe in answering that excellent clercke and man for his lerning not in one thing or two but Vniuersallie in all emongest those of the olde worlde wor thie to be reconed for for no lesse doe the wise and learned iudge him to be howe euer some foolish calfe haue in vaine murmured to the contrarie who being vrged as yowe knowe by your selfe M. Iuell with this place tolde yow that it serued nothing to disproue the souereintie as in deede it doeth not For if yow had reade S. Gregorie so diligentlie as reason woulde yow should before yowe had alleaged him so impudentlie then had yow founde that allthough the B. of Rome had neuer bene called vniuersall bishoppe yeat had that bene no proufe that he is not therefore heade of the churche theÌ„ would yowe not so foolishelie haue noted
shape but in nature that by a spirituall meanes the same fleshe and bloud is daily made by the handes of the priest apon the altar that before the consecration there is bread and wyne that after there is the body and bloud of Christe with such like that yet I say for all this I haue proued no thing because forsooth I haue not vouched your termes Really substantially corporally carnally or naturally If yow flee to this bare and miserable shift then shall yow doe all men to vnderstand that yow ar driueÌ„ to an Exigent when to defend your diuelish doctrine yow ar faine to cauill apoÌ„ wordes and termes which also you shall but wrangle about in vaine the thing it self being most euidently proued which those termes and wordes could doe no more then signify Besides that yow shall well showe your selues to be muâ—h either more foolishe or maliciouse then wer those faithelesse Capernaites Of whome there was yet no one emongest them all so voide of wit or fraight with malice who hearing our sauiour coÌ„mend to them the eating of his fleshe and drincking of his bloud beleued not streight waies thoroughly that he ment as he said of his true and naturall fleshe and bloud all wer it so that he neuer mencioned your termes Really naturally substantially corporally or carnally And truly to say the truthe I see no cause why yowe might not also if yow listed renew Marcion his heresie again and say with him that Christ suffered not in a true but in a fantasticall body if such pleas on your parte may be allowed that except certein termes such as yow list to demaunde can be founde otherwise let the truthe be vttred in wordes neuer so apt or propre yow will neuer graunt theretoe For the Euangelistes I pray you M. Iuell which of them euer told vs in describing Christes death and passion that his body was nailed on the crosse Really substantially with the rest of your termes And will you therefore with Marcion deny that he suffred in a trewe body onlesse we can finde to yow such termes as you demaunde Or if yow saie that in this article of our faithe you make no such demaunde but that yowe holde your selues fully contented with such wordes as you finde vttred in the scriptures for the expressing thereof Why then beleue you not as well the veritie of this article being by Christes owne mouthe first by the voice of his churche sence in all ages confirmed as you doe the Euangelistes touching the suffring of his blessed body Or why might not Marcion denieng Christes body on the crosse then haue bidden Tertullian and other that stroue against him proue it by these termes Really substantially corporally carnally or naturally aswell as you denieng it nowe on the altar driue vs to the prouing the presence thereof there by the same Especially the wordes vttered by the Euangelistes to ascerteine vs of the true suffring of Christes body on the crosse being no more manifest to that effect then ar the wordes of Christ to the other that is to giue vs to vnderstand of the true being of the same apon the altar Well yet shall I euen in this point assay to satisfie if it may be your deintie and delicat appetite Although this must I nedes by the way confesse that the auncient wryters vsed not thiese termes so commonly as the latter haue doen. For in that pure and vnspotted age of the primitiue churche when no heretike durst once open his mouthe to impugne this veritie there was not to say the truthe like occasion as sence Berengarius his time hath bin ministred Or rather the innocency and parfect simplicitie of those dayes thought it not necessary for them to vse your termes corporally carnally with the rest which had said the same body that suffred death on the crosse the same that walcked here on the earth whereas it might probably be thought that they whom such wordes should not persuade to yelde in this point to the truthe would not faile also in such wise to cauill and wraÌ„gle about the other that had they bene vsed neuer so often they would yet by one shift or other seme to auoid them and so coÌ„tinue in their olde heresie still And this I feare me will hereafter appeare by your doinges how euer for the time yow dally with your dilatory exceptions which being brought to wise meÌ„nes scanning be not all worth a blew point or a rotten rushe But nowe I come to your termes The first which is realiter Really is a barbarouse word and therefore of likelihod not to be founde in the learned eloqueÌ„t worckes of the auncient fathers Which thing maketh me to thinck that if in your chalenge M. Iuell yow ment good faith yow will not take it in euell parte if for that which caÌ„ not be had I giue you an other as good I meane for this terme really the word truly or verely For in right iudgement they signifie I dout not all one thing This being presupposed your chalenge touching this term may be answered by the words of our Sauiour where he entreateth of this most blessed sacrameÌ„t and in expresse wordes taught his disciples that his flesh which he would giue them and they should eate should be truly meate and his blood truly drinck Which if it be so then is it not by fiction or imagination as yowe and your companions dreame but in true and to speake after your manner in reall existence If yow say that the wordes of Christ be here by me racked and violently wresteâ— to a far other sense then him self had in them then turne I yow ouer to trye that matter to Hilarius that worthy Bishop of Poyctiers in Fraunce Who reasoning ageinst the heresy of Arrius as I doe now ageinst yours applieth them after this sort to the same purpose De naturali in nobis Christi veritate quae dicimus nisi ab eo discimus stultè atque impiè dicimus Ipse enim ait Caro mea verè estesca sanguis meus verè est potus De veritate carnis sanguinis non est relictus ambigendi locus Nunc enim ipsius domini professione fide nostra verè caro est verè sanguis est The which wordes in our English tongue sound thus Of the naturall veritie of Christ in vs what so euer it be that we teache except we learne it of him we teache bothe foolishly and wickedly For he saith him self my flesh is truly meate and my blood is truly driÌ„ck Of the truthe of his flesh and bloud there is not any place left to dout For now both by the testimony of our lord hiÌ„ self and by our faith it is truly his flesh and truly his bloud Hetherto Hilarius by whom in this place may be gathered good readers first that in the primitiue churche apon these wordes of Christ my flesh is truly meat c. the fathers and bishops of that age
behauing him selfe honestlie and shamfastly had absteined from outeragiouse crieng he as though he had done an iniurie receiued one Doe not yow and youre fellowes followe in this point Paulus the heretike Is he not noted by yow for a papist and in daunger of a shrewde turne that being present at youre sermones answereth not Amen to youre blasphemies vttered against the moste holy sacramentes to youre execrations against the catholikes to youre franticke bragges what you will doe how many mennes liues it shall cost before youre religion be altered Loke yow not so indecently for this as Eâ—sebius saide that Paulus did that some of yow haue bene noted vpon youre audience defaulte in missing to answere at their cue to haue twise repeated the same thing to haue paused and made a staie whereby they haue giuen to all men to vnderstande how miserably they depende apon the blast of the peoples mouthes Donatistae The Donatistes a perniciouse secte of heretikes committed as Optatus that learned bishop writeth of them sacrilege in ouerthrowing the holie altars of god on which being saithe he the seate of Christes bodie and bloude his membres were wont to be susteined They gaue the blessed sacrameÌ„t to dogges the crismatory with the sacred crisme they violently threwe on the grounde being called to the councell of the catholikes there to answere to their doctrine they refused to come and kept them selues awaie When they appeared one time at the councell to make their cause seme the better and to glorie in the multitude of their bishoppes emongest diuerse that were absent they câ—aftilie packed in to the nombre the name of one that was deade before affirming not withstanding that he liued and beleued as they did Of those that were priestes of some they plucked oute the eyes of one bishoppe they cuâ— of the tongue and hande and many they murdered Beholde I beseche yow good Readers in this one secte of heretikes the Donatistes how manie pointes there arre wherein oure Caluinistes and they agree The altars the building vp whereof in oure countrie of England Chrisostome vsed as a demonstration to proue that we had receiued the strength of goddes worde they ouerthrowe as they did and as Optatus saide by the Donatistes doing the like they followe therein the Iues. For as they laide handes on Christ being vpon the crosse so doe these vpon him on the altar If they haue not giuen the blessed sacrament to dogges yeat haue they troden it vnder their wicked and worse then dogges feete The holie crisme that sacred ointement wherewith at their entring in to this worlde and at their departure from hence all true Christian men from the apostles time hetherto haue vsed continualâ—y to be signed and anointed how vilanouslie they haue handled it is to all men better knowen then that it nedeth to be by me here rehersed The Councelles the laufull remedy left by almighty god in his churche to represse heresies it is a worlde to see how bothe the heretikes of these daies and those of times past haue all waies sought meanes and yeat doe to auoide Thus feined Macedonius the heretike him self to be sicke when he was cited to appeare at a councell appointed to be holden at a place called Seleucia a towne of Isauria Thus lurcked Dioscorus from the councell of Calcedon and woulde by no meanes appeare Thus did the Donatistes being called to Carthage Thus doe the protestantes being somoned to Trent The Donatistes to encrease their nombre and to make it seme the greater feined that diuerse bishoppes who wer absent and one emoÌ„gest the rest that was deade did take parte with them ageinst the catholikes Impudent liers were they good readers in so saieng and for no lesse did S. Austen note them But how much more impudent arre oure newe gospellers who feine not this of men absent but of them that were presente not of the deade but of them that be liuing not of them that being present and asked their opinions and sentences answered either feintly or nothing at all whereby some manner of consent might seme to be gathered but of them who standing moste stoutely in defence of the truthe chose rather to leese gooddes liuing libertie life and all then by giuing their consent to the contrary to betraie the pore flocke coÌ„mitted to their charge Was there no other waie M. Iuell to banishe the auctoritie of the pope out of the realme but to abuse the Quenes highnesse with this feined supplicatioÌ„ Moste huÌ„bly beseche youre moste excellent maiestie youre faithefull and obedient subiectes the lordes spirituall and teÌ„porall c. Was this the onely meane to persuade the people that youre doinges were laufull to beare theÌ„ in haÌ„de that the â—ishoppes who with all their power with stoode it wer they that chieffely laboured to haue the popes auctoritie abolished Well Diabolus est mendax pater â—ius The diuell is a lier and so was his father before him and therefore as I maruell not at youre agrement in this point with the Donatistes so I will dwell no longer in the conferring of yow in this point together The crueltie vsed by the Donatistes towardes the catholikes in cutting of handes in plucking oute of eyes and tongues was greate it can not be denied but compare it with that rage of the Caluinistes practised of late yeares apon the pooer catholikes in Fraunce and yow will saie that it was curt oise dealing For what Contented they them selues trowe yow with the onely cutting of their handes with the spoiling them of their eyes and tongues This they did I wote well but alas their furie rested not here For they besides this tieng halters aboute the neckes of such innocent priestes as goddes prouidence suffred to fall in to their handes first drewe them dispituously after their horses theÌ„ picked oute their eyes cut of their eares noses or priuy partes ware their eares in their hattes to glorie the rather in their malice in stede of brooches and finally either hanged vp the miserable casses striuing for life and deathe or with the stroke of a pistolet dispatched them oute of the waie at once Of some they hackled and mangled the faces of other some to proue their force and strength they cleft the heades in two at one stroke What shoulde I here remembre that horrible acte coÌ„mitted by them vpon an olde religiouse man at Mans more barbarouse and inhumaine then that the histories and monumentes of the time past can showe vs of all the cruell tirauntes of all the barbarouse nations and sauage natures that haue gone before any one no not of Iulian the apostata who as it is written of him of such women as had vowed perpetuall virginitie caused the bellies first to be opened then after to be stuffed with barlie and last of all the innocent virgines to be throwen to the hogges of them to be deuoured not of him I
emperour yet hath he not thereby gotten auctoritie to depose bishoppes and ordeine newe â–ª which onely bishoppes must doe So strange a thing semed it then good readers in Christes churche which nowe we see so commonly done Long after thiese emperours start vp Leo Isaurus emperour of Constantinople he that made war with images Ageinst him god raised vp also his Azarias one to warn him of his duetie and that was that notable learned man Iohn Damascenus Giue saith he the apostle Paule crieth to euery one his due honor feare pension tribute to eche one that which they ought to haue The charge that kinges haue is to see well to their common weales the ordering of the churches apperteineth to the pastours and teachers This manner of inuading other mennes offices I can terme it no better my brethern then robbery and plaine violence And a little after he hath thiese wordes Tibi ô rex in ijs quae pertinent ad presentis vitae negocia c. As for those thinges ô king which concern onely this presâ—nt life in those we willingly obey the. In ordering thâ— state of the churche we haue shepherdes which haue spoken to vs the worde of god that is to saie taught it vs and haue left vs rites and ordres therefore And in the same place he addeth Non recipio regeÌ„ qui per tyrannidem sibi sacerdotiuÌ„ vsurpat I acknowledge him for no king that vsurpeth by tirany the priestes office And last of all to knit vp the knot in plaine wordes he saith Non assentior vt regum legibus gubernetur ecclesia sed patrum potius traditionibus siue scriptae hae sint siue non scriptae I consent not saith he that the churche of god shalbe gouerned by the lawes of kinges but by the traditions rather of oure fathers be they written or vnwritten And thus much hetherto good readers haue I thought good to reherce that yow may the better vnderstand how the auncient fathers of Christes churche haue not ceased continually from time to time to resist the vnlaufull attempt of such princes as being heretikes or enueigled theretoe by heretikes for of other perdy it was neuer gone about nor of all them neither would contrary to the expresse worde of god the custome of Christes churche from the beginning continued the alowed exaÌ„ples of all ages of all common weales Christian and heathen hetherto practised mingle heauen and earth holie and prophane together by vnlawfull vsurping to them selues the supreme and chief gouernement in causes ecclesiasticall To come nearer home to our owne time and daies if in it any prince haue attempted the like there hath not lacked also stoare of diuerse meÌ„ singuler bothe for their vertuous life and exquisite learning which haue rather chosen to withstand the same with the expence of their bloud and losse of this present life then to the vtter destructioÌ„ of both body and soule and losse of that which must continue for euer to consent thereto But if thiese examples please not the deinty tast of the aduersaries as being ouer stale I shall set before them their owne deare derling the piller while he liued of their religion the very head of their churche if they be not all together headlesse their Idol and their god in earthe whose doctrine and opinions at other times and in other thinges they haue so rauenouslie deuoured Iohn Caluin him self For if kinges and temporall gouernours as our aduersaries affirme ought euerie one of them in their realmes signories and dominions to gouerne in causes ecclesiasticall and matters of religion whie did then that monsterous beaste in his comentaries apon the prophetes Osâ—e and Amos rayl apoÌ„ our late souereigne lorde king Henrie the eight calling him homo belluinus a beastelie maÌ„ and comparing him with Iehû whome he termeth wicked and nought Why termed he theÌ„ blasphemers that first buzzed into his eares that vaine desire to be called chief head of the churche of England for of other yow wot well he neuer attempted to be nor euer was called vnder Christe here in earth If Caluin haue taught the truthe then haue his scholers taught vs and yeat doe feede vs with lies If they wer blasphemers that called king Henrie chief head of the churche of England vnder Christ which is to saie in effect nothing elles but to be chief gouernour in all causes belonging to the same who was yet a man although laie and thereto also of great wisdome and learning in what degree of blasphemie shall we place them that giue this title not to laie men onelie but to women also and children with out respect If Caluin who touching the giuing of this vnlaufull title to our late lord and maister was vtterly innocent coÌ„plained yet that euen his conscience was wounded not a little there withall how much more daungerousely wounded ought they to thinck them selues who of so many horrible and bloudly woundes whereby for the refusall to folow this example in christes churche neuer hard of before so many godly learned and innocent men in this realme haue died some by heading some by hanging some by quartering and tearing peace meale one membre from an other haue by ther false and vntrue suggestions byn the chief and onelie occasion who yet like cruell bloudsuckers and bloudy bourreâ—aus cary about in their murdering aud malicious mouthes the naked knife which wer it laufull for them they would sheathe in the throates of euerie one of vs that thinck not as they doe But if now on the contrarie part their maister Caluin wer deceauid if they be in the right and he in the wrong why steppeth none of them furth to defend and vindicate from perpetuall infamy that prince of famouse memory which by his railing writinges this wretched caytiff goeth about to bring him into why haue they left him so long vndefended who did no other thing then whereof them selues wer the authors and first beginners Or why at the least purge theie not them selues of the horrible crime of blasphemie laied by him to their charges and all such as theie ar for if they wer blasphemers that called king Henrie head of the churche of Englande what priuilege haâ—e thiese that calling not onelie him but his sonne and daughter by the same title in effect they should not incurre the same crime Where is now their spirit of vnitie that they ar wont so much to bragge of which dissent not here in any small poinct or from any meane man but euen from the chiefest caterpiller whyle he liued of their congregatioÌ„ who not onely in thiese places before by me alleaged kepeth as it wer with their proceadings a combat but elles where in his InstitutioÌ„s doeth merueilousâ—y discredit the same And in steede of manie places which might be brought here out of his worckes I shall onely for this time be coÌ„tented to alleage one in such sort as I finde it in the frenche because at the writing hereof
grounded the doctrine of Christes true presence in the sacrament and so consequently that I deserue no blame who vse this auctoritie no otherwise then I finde by good and laufull recordes that the learned fathers of Christes church haue doen before me next that apon this doctrine once settled they buylded an other that Christ dwelled naturally and truly in vs against the Arrians who denied it And for so vndouted a truthe was this true and reall presence of Christ taken to be with Hilarius that blessed bishop that a littell before the place euen now alleaged to proue that Christ dwelled naturally in vs he vsed this argument or reason The word was truly made flesh in Christes incarnation we receaue the same word truly made flesh in our lordes foode Therefore he dwelleth naturally in vs. To this auncient father for the better iustifieng of this terme truly or verely I shall here adde the auncient councell holden at Ephesus one of the first 4. generall and therefore allowed with vs at home for good by act of parliament The fathers in this councell assembled to Nestorius who as by that councell it may appeare beleued the bread in the sacrament to be so turned in to flesh as that it should haue no manner of coniunction at all with the godhead nor be any other thing then the flesh of a pure and holy man wrote after this sort that we should thinck that we receiue flesh in the sacrament non vt hominis vnius ex nobis sed vt verè propriam eius factam qui propter nos filius hominis est factus vocatus that is to say not as the flesh of a man one such as we ar but such as was truly made his owne propre flesh who for our sakes was made and called the sonne of man Can there be any plainer proufe to show that Christes flesh is truly present in the sacrament then this M. Iuell You can not here shift of this place with Oecâ—lampadius and say as he most impudently did that this auctoritie is no part of th'actes of the councell For if yow so say the inscription of the epistle out of the which these wordes ar taken â–ª sent by the councell to Nestorius will ouerthrow you and proue yow bothe liers The wordes ar these Religioso amabili consacerdoti Nestorio Cyrillus quicuque sunt apud Ephesi synodum To the religiouse and welbeloued of god our fellow priest Nestorius Cyrillus and as many as ar gathered together at the synode of Ephesus By the which it appeareth that there was in the sending of this epistle common consent and agrement of them all which is ynough to sober wyttes and honeâ—t iudgements to proue that this epistle is and so ought of all men to be taken laufull and authentike But what labour I to proue by the auncient fathers this terme verely or which is all one therewith Really which in Iohn Caluin him self is to be founde in his coÌ„mentaryes apoÌ„ S. Paules epistles where he writeth thus Concludo nobis realiter in coena dari Christi corpus vt sit animis nostris in cibum salutarem I conclude saith he that in the supper is giuen to vs really the body of Christ to be to our mindes a wholsom meate Thus haue yowe had proued to yowe M. Iuell that Christes body is in the sacrameÌ„t truly and that we may not so much as doubte thereof that it is there naturally for that was Hilarius meaning when he prooued that Christ dwelled naturally in vs and last of all as Caluin hath and yow haue hard really Here I feare not a little least after the manner of children that whine and whimper till they haue gotten at their mothers handes some trifling thing such as their childishe appetite listeth after which so soone as they haue once fingred they streight way cast in the durt and traÌ„ple vnder their feete You will play the like part with her that of right ought to be your mother the Catholike church of Christ. And whereas to satisfy your waÌ„ton request not for any necessitie that she knewe you stood in thereof she showeth you by good and laufull recordes and some other such as your self in times past haue accoÌ„pted for sound and worthy credit where the body of Christ hath bene said to haue bene in the sacrament truly naturally and really and myndeth to doe the like in your other termes demaunded hereafter I feare me I say least when yow haue all your asking yow handel them in such homely manner as was said before by casting them in to the mire of your distinctions as you vse them to subuert the truthe not durty but poysoned Symbolice Sacramentaliter Spiritualiter and such other Which if yow doe thincking that to such places as expressely mencion that Christes fleshe and bloud is truly present in the sacrament may be answered that it is there truly by a figure by a signe Sacramentally or Spiritually then how euer this seeme to be a childishe guise yeat will it prooue in the ende an old knauish practise of Valentinus the heretike and his mates who liued almost fourtien hundred yeares ago For he and his as yowe ar not I am suer ignorant denied that Christ had any true or naturall body such as mans nature consisteth of graunting neuerthelesse that he suffred in true fleshe on the crosse as yow will perhappes cleaâ—ing to your distinctions not denie that he hath fleshe and bloud truly in the sacrament Now euen as Irenaeus told them when they so said Neque enimesset verè sanguinem carnem haâ—ens per quam nos redemit nisi antiquam plasmationem Adae inse recapitulasset Christ should not truly haue had bloud and fleshe by the which he redemed vs onlesse he had renewed in him self the old shape of Adam so may we tell yow M. Iuell saing that Christes flesh and bloud is truly in the sacrament but yet in a figure in a signe onely and spiritually that then he is not there at all hauing true fleshe and blouâ—â— the same that the scriptures and fathers say he redemed vs with all except he be in that old shape of Adam And thus much of the termes verily or Really and naturally or by nature The next of your termes is substaÌ„tially after the which manner of being I prooue Christes body to be present in the sacrament by Irenaeus Who after many vaine opinions of Valentinus and his compagnions by him rehersed as that Christ had a certein fleshe brought with him from heauen not true or naturall such as oures is with other like inferreth thereapon these wordes Sic autem secundum haec videlicet nec dominus sanguine suo redemit nos neque panis quem frangimus communicatio corporis eius est Sanguis enim non est nisi a venis carnibus a reliqua que est secundum hominem substantia that is to say By this meanes neither did our