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A94720 The female duel, or The ladies looking glass. Representing a Scripture combate about business of religion, fairly carried on, between a Roman Catholick lady, and the wife of a dignified person in the Church of England. Together with their joynt answer to an Anabaptists paper sent in defiance of them both: entitled the Dipper drowned. / Now published by Tho. Toll Gent. Toll, Thomas. 1661 (1661) Wing T1776A; Thomason E1813_2; ESTC R209780 171,193 328

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Old Scripture to shew what a stamp of Majesty and Authority God Almighty fixt upon such assemblies and what respect the people always rendred them So it shall suffice to give you our Saviours own words and so conclude this point We find in St. Matthew thus Again I say unto you that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be done for them of my Father which is in Heaven Matth. 18. v. 18 20. for where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them Now I would fain know who can be convinced more evidently not to hear the Church then he that will not hear a Councell there can be no where a greater and more conspicuous consent than in a Council nor can there be any Congregations assembled more in the name of God then generall Councells are and yet you are pleased to cast contempt upon them But give me leave to tell you let the Authority of Councells be once taken away and all things in the Church will bee ambiguous and uncertain First all the antient Heresies that have been condemned by the authority of Councells and cast out of the Church may be reviv'd and reinforced upon Christians with as much reason as any primitive and Catholick Doctrine Then set up the Authority of Scripture alone against that of the Church and Councills and then Scripture it self will be uncertain for thrusting out that authority wich ha's commended sacred Scripture to us and commanded us to recive it what Scripture is it that opinionated men wil not reject and condemn for Apocrypha which will not save their own turns as some of your Doctros have notoriously done and so in fine we can never agree upon the point what is Scripture and what is not Thus must the Church of Christ fall into a most miserable condition for upon the arising of any doubt in matter of faith there can be no way found out to decide it but every particular person according to the proportion of wit in his own pate shall frame to himselfe faith of what form or fashion he pleaseth How then hath Christ provided for his Church a sufficientrule to go by and why should his Evangelioall Law be called the most perfect if he has not otherwise order'd a determination of all emergent coutroversies But thanks be to our most gracious God and Saviour he has abundantly done it for us as I shal more amply shew in my answers and replyes to the following heads of this your Paper which God give you grace with prudence and impartiality to petuse To what you alledge for Scripture to be the only Rule of our faith and against the Authority of the universall Church and it's Traditions I answer thus To the first I say that you are very much mistaken in matter of Scripture so I shall be bold to inlarge a little upon it for your better understanding And first it is to be observed that our Saviour himself writ no book at all neither commanded his disciples or Apostles to write any inso much as being to send them to plant his Church Matth. 28. he said not to them go and write but go and preach to the whole World Therefore we find the Old Law written in Tables of Stone but the Gospell had no other writing then but in the hearts of Christians So St. Paul plainly expresseth it Ye are our Epistle c. again 2 Cor. 3.2 3. Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declard to be the Epistle of Christ ministred by us not with ink but with the spirit of the living God not in Tables of stone but in fleshly tables of the heart c. This was before prophesyed by the Prophet Jerem. Behold the days come Jer. 31.31.302 3 saith the Lord that I will make a new Cavenant with the House Israell and with the House of Judah not according to the Covenant that I made with their Fathers But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days saith the Lord I wil put my Law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and I wil be their God and they shall be my people c. Again we find that the Church is much ancienter then Scripture for when the Apostles began to preach there was no Evangelical Scripture no Epistle of St. Paul extant and yet the Church was then purchased and sprinkled with the blood of Christ Acts 1. and governed by his unerring Spirit So the Apostles without any authority of the Scripture of the New-Testament proceeded to the election of Matthias and to the ordination or seven Deacons Acts 5.6 c. So Peter proceeded to the sentence against Ananias and Saphira which struck the breath out of their bodies c. Now we know that the Apostles were very diligent in preaching and sowing the word of God and yet we finde but very little that they left us in writing so it must follow that they taught a great deal more then they wrote which must have equal authority with their writings Yet further it is plain that the Scripture it self cannot be authentical without the authority of the Church for the Canonical Writers themselves were but members of the Church and how shall any private man know what Scripture is Canonical and what not but by the Church John 3. Why should any man believe the Gospel of St. Mark to be Canonical who never saw Christ and the Gospel of Nicodemus not to be so who both saw and heard Christ as St. John testifies of him and why should the Gospel of St. Luke the Disciple be receiv'd and the Gospel of St. Bartholomew the Apostle be rejected unless we humbly comply with the power and authority of the Church which hath so ordered it and clearly confess that the Church can judge of Scriptures Thus since it is plain that the Church is ancienter then Scripture and that no Scripture can be thought authentical without the authority of the Church Exod. 20. can any Christian be blamed for saying that he would never believe the Scripture but that the Authority of the Church commanded it over over and above all this the Authority of the Church over Scripture is hugely evident in many particulars of Scripture As first Matth. 28. Act. 15. the Scripture commands thus Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day six days shalt thou labour and do all that thou hast to do but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God c. And yet the Church changed the Sabbath into the Lords day by its own authority Matth. 28.19 20. and not only without but against known Scripture Again Christ said to his Disciples in the Mount that he came not to dissolve the Law but fulfill it and yet the Church in the Apostles Councel decreed and pronounced boldly for the Cessation
are something hard to be understood which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do also the other Scriptures unto their own destruction Thus do you see what unhappy mistakes there were upon St. Pauls writings while St. Paul himself was yet alive how much more then must there needs be now upon those grounds that you receive them Niy St. Paul himself tells you that if his Gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost Now it is plain it cannot be hidden to us who take the sense and interpretation of the whole Church you had best therefore look to your selves that you be not lost by hiding of it from your selves And if the blessed Fathers of the Church that were so conversant in Scripture yet understood it not in those times so near to the time of Christ himself as some of you say that they did not how can you presume upon your selves and some late Doctors that have dared to give you a contrary Doctrine to what they have delivered to us I have often meditared upon that place in St. Lukes Cospel where it is said of the good Samaritan that when he departed he took out two pence and gave them to the Host and said unto him take care of him and what ever thou spendest more when I come again I will repay thee Just so me thinks our Saviour hast left us two Testaments and whatsoever the Apostles Doctors and Fathers of the Church have added more and we shall humbly observe he when he comes again of his great goodness will repay us Now to summ up all it is plain by this that has been said that some Traditions of the Church must have equal authority with Scripture as the commands of a Prince have equal force and power upon Subjects whether by word of mouth delivered or by writing So the word of God written or delivered is still the word of God and of equal power And if you say that the Apostolical Tradition cannot be the word of God I ask you whether the other part of the Apostles that have left us nothing in writing were not as well inspired of the Holy Ghost as they that did you cannot sure deny it and they were too the greater part of the Twelve Now the Church of Christ still retains many things of their Doctrine thorgh we have none of their writing and sure we are to give as much credit to those that writ not as those that did I ask you again whether it be not a point of faith that the whole Scripture taken together of the Old and New Testament is the word of God and again whether all that Scripture especially in those things which concern Faith and Salvation be not most clear from corruption and again that we have the true genuine and legitimate sense of that Scripture is a point of faith too I believe you will not deny any one of these to be a point of your Faith I am sure they are all of mine so you must first acknowledge that I give as great an honour to Scripture as your self and then if we both admit those three positions as principles of Faith we must necessarily admit of Traditions for we have no Authority but that to justifie them and if we do not admit those for principles our Faith it self is wholly vain Then besides these three principles of Faith there are others also which we have only by Tradition as that the Symbol of our Faith is Canonical and Apostolical Then that Infants are to be baptized Then that those who are baptized by Hereticks are not to be re-baptized Then as is aforesaid that the blessed Mother of God alwayes remained a Virgin Then that in Baptism those words ought to be pronounced I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and that without them there can be no valid Baptisme Then that there is a certain and determinate number of Sacraments and what that number is All these things I say are not clearely to be found in Scripture but we must be beholding to the Authority of Tradition But last of all for Ecclesiastical Rites and Ceremonies it is manifest that we can have no other authority but Tradition and not Apostolicall for all those neither but some of them only from the Primitive Fathers that succeeded the Apostles in the Government of Christs Church and that sure it security enough for the practice and perswasion of any Christian for I have heard that a very ancient and most learned Father said that it was a piece of most insolent madnesse to dispute the doing of that which the Church of Christ throughout the whole world has always frequented and practised so 〈◊〉 you to it There were other wicked and idolatrous Kings as Abaz Manasses Amon and some others wicked though not idolaters but yet the use of the Divine Sacrifice and worship according to the Mosaical Law does appear still to have remained in the Temple of Solomon til the Babylonish captivity as is evident by several places of Scripture Then for the failing of the Synagogue in the time of Christ which you alledge it is not to be supposed that they failed from the true faith which was before profest but she with her ceremonies and Sacrifices was turned out of dores as was before typified in Abrahams bondwoman it does not therefore follow that the Church the true wife should be so too Then the Synagogue was therefore turned away because it was neither perfect nor sufficient to salvation Heb. 7.19 for so St. Paul tells us that the Law brought nothing to perfection and in that sense the ceremonies and Sacraments of the Synagogue are called by the same Apostle Gal. 4.9 weak and beggarly elements but now the Church of Christ is perfect and sufficient to salvation because it's Sacraments which are instituted by Christ carry with them a vertue of justification and taking away of sinnes the Sacrrments of the old Law only promised a Saviour but the Sacraments of the new give salvation Again the Synagogue contained only the shadow of future things as St. Paul speaks Heb. 10.1 Ioh. 1.9 but the Church contains the light it self which is Christ as St. Iohn assures us now the shadow must necessarily fly before the light the Synagogue therefore with the Mosaical Sacrifices ought to cease when the Church comes with Christ Last of all the Synagogue was instituted for servants the Church for sonnes now servants take wages of their masters for a time and so are dismist by their masters but sonnes succeed in the perpetual inheritance which the Apostles thus insinstates to the Galatians Gast out the bondwoman and her sonne Gal. 4.30 for the sonne of the bondwoman shall not be heire with the sonne of the free woman and so enough of difference I conceive is shewed between the Synagogue and the Church to shew you that the reason is not the same To
of those Legalities We find again in the last of St. Matthew Christ saying to his Disciples Go ye therefore and teach all Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you Here Christ laid down an express form of Baptism in the name of the holy Trinity and yet the primitive Church did think fit to change that form into a Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ only for so St. Peter enjoyned them Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins c. And again we finde that the Samaritars were baptized by St. Philip in the name of Jesus Act. 2.38 Acts 8. Act. 19.5 Act. 15.28 29. So again upon St. Pauls preaching at Ephesus when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Above all this we find the Scripture telling us that it was defined in the Apostles Councel thus It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us c. that ye abstam from meats offered unto Idols and from blood and frous things strangled c. This we see is most plainly and expresly defined by the Apostles and as clearly attested by Scripture and yet the Church in after Ages hath thought fit to change that decree and permit Christians to eat strangled things and blood nay you that dispute against the Authority of the Church in matters of Faith are contented to submit to it in point of eating you could not otherwise deny the eating of a black pudding or strangled Hen to be a most notorions transgression nor could any thing excuse us from sin in so doing if the Church h●d not a power over the Scriptures And to conclude if the authority of the Church were not over the Scriptore then all Jews that should be converted now to the Faith of Christ and come to Baptism should be tyed still to the observation of Mases his Law for so we finde in Scripture that the Apostles themselves and others of th● Nation which became Converts did always do St. James and all the Elders said to St. Paul upon his return from the Gentiles Thou seest brother how many thousands of Jews there are which believe and they are all zealous for the Law and they are informed of thee that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses Saying Act. 21.18 20 21 22 23 24 25. that they ought not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the custums What is it therefore the multitude must needs come together for they will hear that thou art come Do therefore this that we say unto thee we have four men which have a vow on them Them take and purifie thy self with them and be at chrrges with them that they may shave their heads and all may know that those things whereof they were informed concerning thee are nothing but that thy self also walkest orderly and keepest the Law As touching the Geutiles which believe we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing save only that they keep themselves from things offered unto Idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornica●on Here it is plain that St. Paul with many thousands more did observe the Law of Moses and that by the immediate order of St. James the Prelate of the place and the Councel of all the Elders This we know clearly altered since by the authority of the Church and what a fine confusion it would produce if otherwise practised now I will leave your self to judge To the second I say that what you urge out of Deuteronomy makes no more against us then it does against the Apostles themselves from whence we received our Traditions but most especially St. Paul who expresly bids us to hold fast the Traditions which we have received Nay and all the holy Fathers of the Primitive Church who have always imbraced and held them Nay yet further you do most manifestly oppose and oppugne your own selves who receive the Tradition of Scripture the Lords day and many holy days with divers other things which you hold in great reverence by no other Authority If therefore we Catholicks offend in so doing then the Apostles themselves and all the Primitive Fathers and Christians and you your selves are as guilty of a fault if they be innocent and you too why should we be condemned Again give me leave to tell you that you have wholly mistaken the sense of that Text and that I will demonstrate to you out of the context which runs thus Deu 4.1.2 Now therefore hearken O Israel un-the Statutes and unto the Judgements which I teach you for to do them that ye may live and go in and possess the Land which the Lord God of your Fathers giveth you Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you neither shall you diminish ought from it that ye may keep the Commandments of the Lord your God which I command you As if he should say I give unto you precepts both Ceremonial and Judicial which ye ought perfectly and entirely to keep for so much is signified in those words ye shall not add nor diminish and this precept to that people is delivered though in other words yet to the very same sense in divers other places that they should be punctual in the observation of what was commanded them and not to swerve or turn to the right hand or the left So that these three things are upon the matter all one that is perfectly and intirely to keep Moses his precepts Deut. 17.20 Deut. 28.14 Deut. 31.29 Josu 1.7 not to turn from them neither to the right hand nor to the lest and last of all neither to add to nor diminish from their observation Which now is plain cannot be so understood as if it were unlawfull to add any new precept for then it had been utterly unlawful to add those new Evangelical precepts as Faith in the blessed Trinity the whole business of Holy Baptism and the Eucharist which you receive as well as we but the sense of those Texts must be plainly this that they ought to be very exact in the observation of Moses his Laws not to corrupt them with any addition or dimunition but to keep them intirely as for example this was a Mosaical precept Levit. 12.2 3. If a woman have conceived seed ann born a man child then she shal be unclean seven days c. And in the eighth day the flesh of his soreskin shall be circumcised c. To this precept now it was not lawful to add or diminish from that it was not lawful neither before nor after the eigth day to circumcise the child nor was the uncleanness of the mother to last more or less than seven days Now the same reason holds throughout all other precepts as I shall