because the Scripture can not deceive whosoever doth fear lest that he be deceived through the Obscurity of this question may ask Counsel touching it of the Church whom without any doubt the Scripture it self doth shew The same S. Aug. l. 4. de Trin. c. 6. saith No lover of peace will be against the Church And Ep. 118. c. 5. he plainly terms it Most insolent madness to dispute against that which the whole Church holdeth I will insist no longer upon the Testimony of the Fathers of which I might pour a whole shower against you lest I receive the ordinary Answer that this their Opinion was one of their Navi Spots or Blemishes and therefore shall be rejected but will â—â—ge your own Authors and Protestants to whom perhaps you will give more Credit Calvin upon Esay expounding the words of the 59 Chap. My Spirit which is in thee and my words which I have put in thy Mouth shall not depart from thy Mouth and from the Mouth of thy Seed and of thy Seeds Seed saith our Lord from henceforward and for ever saith He promiseth that the Church shall never be deprived of this inestimable good but that it shall alwayes be governed by the holy Ghost and supported with heavenly doctrine Again soon after The Promise is such that the Lord will so assist the Church and have such care of her that he will never suffer her to be deprived of true doctrine And his Scholar Beza de haeret à Civili Magistratu puniendis p. 69. confesseth that the Promise of our Saviour of the Assistance of the holy Ghost was not made onely to the Apostles but rather to the whole Church D. Saravia in defens tract de div Ministr gradib p. 8. saith The holy Spirit which beareth rule in the Church is the true Interpreter of Scriptures from him therefore is to be fetched the true Interpretation and since he cannot be contrary to himself who ruled the Primitive Church and governed the same by Bishops those now to reject is not certes consonant to Verity Our Lutheran Adversaries of Wittenberg Harm of Confess Sect. 10. p. 332 333. Confess Witten Art 30. not onely confess the Church to have Authority to bear witness of the holy Scripture and to interpret the same but also affirm that She hath received from her husband Christ a certain Rule to wit the Prophetical and Apostolical preaching confirmed by Miracles from heaven according unto the which she is bound to interpret those places of Scripture which seem to be obscure and to judge of doctrines Field also l. 4. c. 19 20. Sect. The Second acknowledgeth in the Church a Rule of faith descending by tradition from the Apostles according unto which he will have the Scriptures expounded And we cannot doubt but that she hath followed this Rule having such Assistance from Gods holy Spirit Furthermore the same Dr. Field in the Epistle to his Treatise of the Church professeth thus Seeing the controversies of Religion are grown in number so many and in Nature so Intricate that few have time and leisure fewer strength of understanding to examine them What remaineth for Men desirous of Satisfaction in things of such Consequence but diligently to search out which among all the Societies of Men in the World is that blessed Company of holy Ones that houshold of faith that Spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her directions and rest in her Judgment For brevity I will omit many other of our Adversaries who are of the same Minde and will now press harder upon you Surely if we believe the Creed the Church is holy if the Scripture She is the Spouse of our Saviour without spot or wrinkle which Eulogies and indeed glorious titles would nothing well become her if she can teach us that which is false This Scripture also gives us these known doctrines and directions That the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth 1 Tim. 3. v. 15 c. That the Church is built upon a Rock and the Gates of hell shall not prevail against her Matth. 16. v. 18. He that will not hear the Church let him be to thee as the Heathen and the Publican Matth. 18. v. 17. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me Luke 10. v. 16. Loe I am with you even to the Consummation of the World Matth. 28. v. 20. I will ask the father and he will give you another Paraclete that he may abide with you the Spirit of truth Jo. 14. v. 16. And again yet many things I have to say unto you but you cannot bear them now but when the Spirit of truth cometh he shall teach you all truth Jo. 16. v. 12 13. to omit many other the like passages is Scripture Now this Church whose Authority is thus warranted did praecede the Scripture which for a great part thereof was written but upon Emergent Occasions as Field Hook Covel and other our Adversaries have confessed which Occasions had they not been perhaps we never had known this Scripture Suppose then we had lived in those times when there had been no such Scripture as many did some part thereof being not written above sixty years after our Saviours Ascension Ought we not then to have believed the Churches tradition and preached word This Church was called the Pillar and Ground of Truth before the words were seen in writing and the like I might say by the other places before cited which are now in the Scripture but were delivered by word of mouth to the Church before ever they were written by all which places the Authority of the Church is commended to us and we referred to the said Church as a Guide in all our doubts And all these words of God were no less to be believed and obeyed before they were written then since Even the Scripture it self is believed upon the Tradition and Authority of the Church being part of the Credenda it proposeth nor could we at this day have known which books were true now Canonical which Spurious but by the Churches decision and Proposal as the said learned Mr. Hooker and other our Adversaries do acknowledge Again who doth not ground his belief upon the Church upon what doth he ground it but upon his own fancy or private Interpretation of Scripture the true Sourse and Nurce of all Heresy And such as these may indeed be found upon ancient Account as Helvidius Vigilantius and the rest of Hereticks as the Catholick Church did then account them Now to that which is insinuated That the Scripture was sometime acknowledged the Rule of Faith and Manners it is answered that it is so now but this doth no way hinder the Churches being the Ground of our Belief for the Church is both the Ground of our believing the Scripture and also the Interpreter of Scripture as is above confessed by our Adversaries
Luke 10.16 We say first this seems not to be rightly applyed to the businesse we are about for this was directed not to the Governors of the Church but to the seventy Disciples or Elders which were sent by Christ to preach the VVord Secondly If you doe extend it to the Representative Church yet doth it not command subjection of judgement alwayes to whatsoever is said but not to despise them as is intimated by what followes and he that despiseth you despiseth me VVe may differ without despising And Thirdly If you will from hence argue that whatsoever was determined in a Council was also determined by Christ then Honorius was by Christ determined an Heretick as you may see in the practicks of the sixth Oecumenical Synod as Nilus in his second Book And if you say that the Church cannot erre in a General Council then resolve Nilus the reason why the Pope doth not hear a General Council for if that General Council did not erre as by your argument it must not then the Pope did erre As for the other places of Holy Scripture which you produce of Christs being with his Church to the end of the world and of his promise of leading his Church into all truth VVe answer together First Though the promise be extendible to the end of the world yet it is not necessary to understand it so as that there shall alwaies be equality of assistance to the times of the Apostles which is hard to affirm since we cannot say that there is such necessity for such assistance or such dispositions in the Governours of the Church to receive such assistance Secondly The Promise is made good by a sufficient direction of the Church to their end of happinesse although not without possibility of error For every simple error doth not deprive the Church of Salvation and then it may also recover it self from errour by more perusal of the Scriptures But if it may at all erre it hath not the property of a ground of Faith nor a just capacity of an Infallible communication of all things which are to be believed You go on Now this Church whose Authority is thus warranted did precede the Scriptures Answ VVarranted as a Church but not as so not as Infallible Did precede the Scriptures which for a great part were written upon emergent occasions as you say Answ As for the writing of Scriptures and the emergent occasions you may be further referred to Doctor Field whom you made use of against me VVhatsoever the occasion was the end was to make what was written a sufficient rule of Faith and Manners And as for your objection and inference upon it VVe answer with a distinction the Scripture is considerable two wayes either in respect to the substance of Doctrine or secondarily in respect to the manner of delivery by writing in the first regard the Scripture did precede the Church for the Church was begotten by it which to them was as certain as the written to us And if you could make your Traditions of proper name equally certain you would say somewhat And as for Scripture that which is written doth binde though it doth not properly binde as written You say that the Church was called the Pillar and ground of Truth before it was written and so you say might be said of other passages We answer As that place expressed it doth not appear to us that it was so called since first we find it in termes in Saint Pauls Epistle But if so or other like were used before the answer before will serve By all which places the authority of the Church is commended to us and we are referred to the Church as a Guide in all our Doubts So you say and so we say Where is the Adversary How doth this conclude contradictorily We confesse that the Authority of the Church is commended to us in Scripture but not directly in every place you name nor in any is it so commended to us as to ground our Faith We confesse we are referred to the Ministers for Direction and to the Governours for jurisdiction yet are not the Latter Masters of our Faith unto whom we should be bound in a blind Obedience of Universal assent or practice We take their advice but we are not by them determined in our Faith We may beleeve what they say but not because they say it As it is drawn from Scripture so it draweth us If they make it probable that it is so because they say it yet it hath not the certainty of Faith without the Word of God I should be very tender of incompliance with the judgement of the whole Church but yet I must have for my warrant of Faith the Lord saith And although there be no appeal from a General Council yet have they no infallible judgement You proceed even the Scripture it self is beleeved upon the Tradition and authority of the Church Answer This was touched before in the case of Saint Austin and it is in effect answered as before by Doctor Field Indeed we take the Canonical Books by Tradition from the Church but we doe not take them to be Canonical by Tradition from the Church The authority of the Church moves me as to the Negative not to dissent but assent is settled to them as such in the way of Faith because they are such In thy Light we shall see Light as the Psalmist speaks Psalm 36.9 or by thy Light so by Scripture we see Scripture Next follows the Expostulation which may be put into this discourse Either we ground our beleef upon the Church or upon our own fancy and private Interpretation of Scripture c. Answer We deny your disjunction VVe ground our beleef neither upon the authority of the Church as you nor upon fancy neither as some have done who have been better friends to Romans then they have been to us as Doctour Whitaker told Campian upon a like imputation of Anabaptastical fancies VVe differ from you because we allow to private Christians a judgement of discretion or discerning which sure is commended in that precept Prove all things in the first Epistle to the Thessalonians 5.21 We differ from those who magnifie their private interpretations because we say they should be directed by their Ministers and ordered by the Bishops the Pastours of the Church chiefly when they are assembled in a General Council wherein is the highest power of Oyer and Terminer as we may speak of hearing and ending differences in the Church yet we cannot say that we are absolutely bound unto their Canons we having the judgement of private discretion and they not the judgement of Infallibility And if you cannot say that they are absolutely without any doubt but true without doubt we can say that we should not absolutely beleeve them Every possible defect of certainty in the Object excludes Faith the certainty whereof admits no falsity Therefore can we not presently yeeld or assent to whatsoever is by them defined
is strangled See here among Necessary things one is to abstain from blood which Christians do not nor think not to be done for they freely eat black Puddings and also to abstain from things strangled as when we strangle Chickens and eat them freely If you tell me that Scripture onely is Iudge of Controversies I will tell you that by the Iudgement of this Iudge following no other as infallible woe be to the Opinion of all Catholiques and Protestants who hold it lawful to work upon Saturdayes unlawful on Sundayes lawful to eat Blood and Strangled things unlawful to abstain from them as still forbidden woe I say to our Opinion for it not onely will not be judged as undoubtedly true by Scripture but also it will and that undoubtedly be judged false by the Places now cited I pray tell me here how Men of mean capacity yea how Men of the greatest capacity in the World shall be able to finde by the judgement of Scripture onely what is Infallibly to be believed in these points in which so many hundred Thousands of Jewes damnably differ from us Did not all this Kingdome of England grounded upon Scriptures clear enough as they said both hold and swear that they held the King the Head of the Church can any point in the Church be of higher concernment to the Church then to know for certain their own Head And yet this point is now no longer ascertained us by the Infallible judgement of Scripture For another example what Controversie can more import then to be undoubtedly and by Infallible Authority secured which books of Scripture be Canonical and the certain Word of God and which be not You say there is no Infallibility of any verity to be had but by the Scripture But I say that in all the Scripture no Infallibility can be had concerning the Canon of the Scripture wherefore either we cannot know this most important point of all points infallibly or else we must acknowledge the Church to be Infallible for the Scripture in this point is wholly silent We dispute and differ highly about the books of Macchabees whether they be the certain Word of God or no. I pray tell me how shall this grand Controversie be decided and decided Infallibly by the â—udgement of Scripture Luther denyeth the Apocalypse to be true Scripture we all in England stand out against him I pray tell me what Scripture we have against him that is Infallible without begging the question which is called into Controversie We all believe the Gospel of St. Matthew not onely to be the true Gospel of Christ and his Word but also to be the Gospel of St. Matthew as also the Gospel of St. Mark to be written by St. Mark If any Man should deny this what place of Scripture could we cite against him or what Infallible ground have we of this our belief The Marcionists the Cerdonists the Manichaeans do absolutely deny St. Matthews Gospel to be Gods Word This Controversie you say and all other Controversies of Faith is to be ended by the Scripture I ask what place of Scripture will end this Controversie and all other Controversies about all other books of Scripture which have almost all been denyed to be Gods Word by some Hereticks or other And as for St. Matthew you must know that all Ancient Writers no one excepted do say that he did write in Hebrew and yet neither his Hebrew Gospel nor any one certain Copy of it is extant in the World Tell me then upon what undoubted Ground you beleeve any thing that is in St. Matthews Gospel onely The Greek Translation which we have was made by God knows whom for we know not He might be a faithful or unfaithful Translator he might use a false uncorrect Copy he might mistake in many places by Ignorance in many by Negligence or Malice Upon what Infallible ground shall a converted Manichaean as St. Austin for example believe this Greek Gospel which we have By what Scripture will you presse him to it yea upon what Scripture do you your selves beleeve this Gospel this Greek Translation of S. Matthew If you tell me Saint Matthew did write in Greek I must tell you that all Antiquity no one antient Author excepted say the contrary How will you then ground Infallible belief upon your so new and so uncertain Opinion When this question was moved whether any Book was to be received as the Infallible Word of God or no The Holy Fathers could never finde any more undoubted ground then that the Church did allow or not allow of such Books to be held for Gods undoubted Word Upon this ground St. Athanasius in fine Synopsis receiveth the Gospel of St. Matthew and the other Three Gospels and rejected the Gospel of St. Thomas Upon this Ground Tertullian St. Hierome St. Austin and St. Leo professe themselves to admit such and to deny other Books to be Canonical Upon this ground it is that Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 3.19 saith such Scriptures are held for true genuine and manifestly allowed by the opinion of all because they are so According to the Tradition of the Church and that by this Evident Note or Mark they are distinguished from others Behold the most perspicuous mark by which Scriptures could be Infallibly known to be or not be Gods undoubted Word is the Tradition of the Church Whence St. Austin giving a reason to the Manichaeans who believed some part of the Gospel why he cited the Acts of the Apostles which they believed not saith thus Which Book of the Acts it is necessary for me to believe if I believe the Gospel being the Catholick Authority in like manner commendeth both these Scriptures to me So he contra Ep. Fund c. 4. By this the Author of the Reply may see how Insufficient his Answer pag. 25. is when he saith Indeed we take the Canonical Books by Tradition from the Church but we do not take them to be Canonical upon her Tradition but assent is setled in them as Canonical in the way of Faith because they are such In thy light we shall see light so by Scripture we shall see Scripture So he but not so any one of the Fathers who were most often pressed to give a reason why they believed such Books to be Canonical why not None of these professed themselves to be so sharp sighted that by seeing onely Canonical Scriptures they could see them to be Canonical Scriptures and that so manifestly as to ground their Faith upon it You by the Apocalyps see it to be Canonical your most illuminated Luther could not see it to be so by that light By all the light he had he Judged St. James his Epistle to be made of Straw yet you see in it a light shewing undoubtedly it to be Gods Word You cannot see the two first Books of Macchabees to be Canonical yet St. Austin believed them to be so for that the Councel of Carthage Can. 47. received them for
their Souls upon that their conceived certainty Thus you see when the Scripture in four several places delivereth these four words This is my Body Men will hold it to be clear that so clear words be not clear and will venture their Salvation upon this their Imagination In this and many other points we say the Scripture is clear for us The Lutherans say it is clear for them The Calvinists say it is clear for them We have conferred Place with Place we have looked in the Originals and after all this the Scripture doth not decide this Controversie but when all is done we are as far from Agreeing and being brought to the undoubted knowledge of the most important truth as we were at the beginning Another very strong Argument to declare that the Scripture cannot be the Judge of all Controversies in points of Faith necessary to Salvation is this That there be many points the believing of which is necessary to Salvation which points are no where set down clearly in Scripture For first you make it the chief point of all points to believe the Scripture to be the Judge of all Controversies and by it self sufficient to end them all I ask where is this point of points which you make the ground of your belief where is it I say set down in Scriptures and that so clearly that no prudent doubt can be made but that such words clearly say what you say Doth not Saint Athanasius in his Creed put down as an undoubted Article of Catholick Faith which Faith as he saith without a Man hold it entirely and inviolably without all doubt he shall perish eternally doth he not put down there that we must believe That God the Father is not begotten that God the Son is not made but begotten by his Father only that the holy Ghost is neither made nor begotten but doth proceed and that both from the Father and the Son And that he who will be saved must believe thus And yet how far are these most hard points from being clearly deliver'd in the Scripture So also that God the Son is Consubstantial to his Father and of the same Substance is a certain Article of Faith and yet no where clearly delivered in Scripture but was believed by All upon the sole Authority of the Church which consequently was believed Infallible I have already shewed that the necessary cōmandment of keeping the Sunday in place of the Saturday is no where in Scripture but rather the contrary How then can I believe this for the Scripture or for any clear place of it there being no such place to be found I have also shewed that it is no where in Scripture set down at all much lesse set down clearly and manifestly which Books of Scripture be Canonical which not How then by the Testimony of Scripture which giveth no Testimony at all of this point can I believe such books undoubtedly to be such not to be Canonical Baptisme of Children to be Necessary to their salvation is a prime point of Belief and yet you cannot believe this prime point upon any clear place of Scripture for there is no such place but you must all say with the great Saint Austin That though nothing for certain can be alledged out of Canonical Scriptures in this point yet in this point the truth of Scriptures and consequently a sufficient ground for Faith is kept by us when we do that which seemed good to the Catholick Church which Church the Authority of the same Scriptures doth commend Contra Crescon l 1.13 And this following the Tradition of the Church he calleth The most true and inviolable Rule of Truth He holdeth therefore Tradition of the Church so Infallible that it may be a ground for Faith He was taught so by Saint Paul 2 Thes 2. Hold the Traditions which you have received either by word of Mouth or by Epistle Upon which place Saint Chrysostome having taught that the Apostles delivered many things by word of Mouth not set down any where in writing he saith that these unwritten Traditions are worthy of the same belief which those deserve which are written It is a Tradition of the Catholick Church Seek no further So he But you say I must seek further to find this in Scripture yet Saint Chrysostome tells me that being a Tradition of the Church it is Gods Word and upon this account as worthy to be believed as if it were his written Word for it is the being his Word and not the being of his written Word which maketh it Infallibly true Well then It having been made clear by all these reasons and authorities that the Scriptures cannot be intended by Christ for the Judge of all our Controversies in Faith and that their reading cannot be that Holy way a way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it Let us see where this way is to be found and who is to be judge to define all Controversies with Infallible authority so that all are bound to submit their Interiour judgement in which all faith consists to this Authority it being high Treason against Christ not to submit to an Authority instituted by him purposely to oblige all to this submission I say this Judge is the Catholique Church This I will prove first and this being proved I will shew briefly that no Church but the Roman can prudently be held to be this Catholique Church In proof of the Catholique Church her being Judge of all Controversies I alledge first those words Matth. 16. v. 18. I say unto thee that is to St. Peter by name Thou art Peter that is Thou art a Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it that is those Gates of Hell out of which so many damnable Errours shall issue shall never prevail by inducing any damnable Error into that Church which I will build upon thee O Peter and thy Successours which I add because this Church was not to be built upon the Person of St. Peter onely for then this fair building had fallen to the ground when St. Peter had died They who do say that the Church may fall into damnable Errors do say that the Church may fall to the ground and that the Gates of Hell may prevail against it for what greater fall can it have then by damnable Errors to make its Members all fall into Hell and in what manner can the Gates of Hell more prevail against it And yet we are sure by Gods Word that shall never happen Wherefore in this Church we imbrace most groundedly all things proposed by it to be believed Here you see our Judge Christs Church hath Gods warrant to warrant Her from bringing in any damnable Error by her Judgement All may therefore securely obey But that none can securely disobey her Judgement Christ also doth warrant us in the next Chapter but one for Matth. 18. v. 17. he saith Tell the Church and if he
ever Now of no Kingdome in the world but of the Kingdome of Christs Church this can be understood This Church therefore shall stand for ever And consequently at no time it shall fall into damnable errors for then it is true to say It doth not stand but is faln most damnably Again in Isaiah 29. God doth clearly declare his Covenant with his Church according to the Interpretation of Saint Paul himself Rom. 11.26 This is my Covenant with them saith the Lord my Spirit which is upon thee and the words which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed saith the Lord from henceforth and for ever But how could the Word of the Lord more depart from the Mouth of the Church then if she should with her mouth teach damnable errors From this therefore he secureth his Church for ever and ever Hence Saint Austin saith l. de Unitat. Eccl. cap. 6 7 12 13. See him also l. 20. de Civit. cap. 8. in Psalm 85. de Utilit Credendi c. 8. Whosoever affirmeth the Church to have been overthrown as it were if at any time it should teach any damnable error doth rob Christ of his glory and Inheritance bought with his precious Blood yea Saint Hierom cont Lucifer c. 6. goeth farther and averreth that He that so saith doth make God subject to the Devil and a poor miserable Christ The reason is because this Assertion doth after a sort bereave the whole Incarnation Life and Passion of our Saviour of their Effect and End which was principally to found a Church and Kingdome in this world which should endure to the day of Judgement and direct Men in all Truth to Salvation Wherefore whosoever affirmeth the Church to have perished taketh away this effect and Prerogative from his Incarnation Life and Passion and avoucheth that at some times Man had no means left to attain to everlasting blisse which is also repugnant to the Mercy and goodnesse of God He also maketh God subject to the Devil in making the Devil stronger then Christ and affirming him to have overthrown Christs Church and Kingdome which our Lord promised should never be conquered That the Holy Fathers did believe the Church of Christ to be Infallible and of an Authority sufficient to ground Faith upon appeareth by their relying onely upon her Authority in the chiefest Articles of Faith which is to believe such and such Books are the true Word of God and upon this onely ground they ground this their Faith as in the 12. Number I have shewed Saint Athanasius Saint Hierome Saint Austin Tertullian and Eusebius to have received such Books for Gods Word and to have not received others and to have received such with veneration of Divine Authority as St. Austin spoke And upon this infallible Authority they all believed God the Father not to be begotten God the Sonne to be begotten by his Father onely and to be Consubstantiall to him and God the Holy Ghost not to be begotten but to proceed from both Father and Son Upon this infallible Authority they all held children to be baptized though nothing for certain could be alledged out of the Canonical Scriptures in this point but onely the Catholique Church taught this to be done as in the 16th Numb have shewed out of St. Austin who there calleth this relying on the Churches Authority The most true inviolable Rule of Faith And S. Chrysostome there also saith that these unwritten Traditions of the Church infallible onely in her Authoritie are as worthy of faith and credit as that which is written in Scripture And in the 19th Numb I have shewed out of St. Irenaeus That we should have bin as much obliged to believe although no Scriptures had been written as we are now and that the faith of whole Nations is grounded not in Scripture but consequently on the infallible Authority of the Church whose word he calleth the Word of God as I shewed in the end of the 22th Number I summe up all these Authorities that my Adversary may not say as he did that the authority of St. Austin was single when he believed the Gospel to be Gods Word upon the infallible authority of the Church for if her authority be by so many Fathers acknowledged infallible then St. Austin is not single in his opinion in this point But because that place of St. Austin speaketh home and because my Adversary saith That if we take this passage by it self it seemeth to speak high but saith he if we consider the tenour of Saint Austins discourse in the whole chapter It is like we will begin to think that it came from him in some heat of spirit to overcome his Adversary For these causes I say I will consider the tenour of St. Austins Discourse in this whole Chapter and I will shew manifestly that this his Doctrine was so far from coming out from him in some heat of Spirit to overcome his adversary that he maketh it the very prime Ground of his discourse and without he will stand to that Ground he there must needs seem to say nothing against his Adversary This Chapter is the fourth Chapter Cont. Ep. Manichaei The whole substance of it is this The Epistle of Manichaeus beginneth thus Manichaeus the Apostle of Jesus Christ by the Providence of God the Father I ask therefore saith Saint Austin who this Manichaeus is You will answer the Apostle of Christ I do not believe it Perhaps you will read the Gospel unto me endevouring thence to prove it And what if you did fall upon one who did not as yet believe the Gospel what would you do then if such an one said I do not believe you This is his first Argument to shew that his Adversary by citing Texts out of the Gospel to prove Manichaeus a true Apostle could prove nothing against those who as yet have not believed the Gospel then he goeth on But because I am not one who have not yet believed the Gospel and so this Answer cannot serve me notwithstanding I must tell you that I am such an one that I would not believe the Gospel without the Authority of the Catholick Church did move me This being the ground of his Answer you shall see how he builds upon this and onely this Ground It followeth then thus I having therefore obeyed those Catholique Pastors saying Believe the Gospel the most Important point of Points Why should I not obey them saying to me do not believe Manichaeus Then upon this ground he presseth home saying Chuse which you will if you say believe the Catholiques then I must not believe you for they teach me not to give Faith to you wherefore believing them as I do I cannot believe you Now if you say do not believe the Catholiques then you do not go consequently to force me by the Gospel to give Faith to Manichaeus
formality of speech doth import a promise in the future not a duty in the Subjunctive yet the promise doth not include an impossibility of error no more then the promise made to your Church as you suppose doth exclude all error but that which is destructive Thirdly The future in the Hebrew doth not contradict a subjunctive in the interpretation when the scope bears it since the Hebrews as you may know have no proper Subjunctive And it is proper to the scope to understand it as of duty they should keep knowledge whereupon â—â—ey are charged for breach of duty therefore our Interpretation in this is more sound then your dispute upon it And therefore that which you say in your 19. Number that any man may ask the Priests of the Church what is the Known Doctrine of the Church then let him rest securely when he knowes that that is unreasonable because the Priests are not Infallible May he not rest more securely in Scripture for the Church in all things is not as before infallible the Scripture is in all which it proposeth but the Church you say is not in danger of taking in any damnative error Well but the Scriptures sets out none at all but all things are not determined in Scripture Well but all things are not determined in the Church but all things necessary are taught in the Church which may keep us from damnative error Well and are not all things necessary taught in the Scripture why then not to the Law and Testimony why to the Cistern when we may have it at the Fountain why not to the Scripture particularly when what Authority the Church hath it hath from the Scripture in general and why doth your Church take away from the people the use of Scripture and why may not we be informed as sufficiently by our Priests as you by yours notwithstanding this Text especially since we go by Scripture you by Tradition or humane definition And if the Priests of yours were Infallible can you say Infallibly that they will not deceive you How miserably then do you provide for the poor people when you would have them require at their mouth not the Law of God but the Doctrine of the Church That which comes on in the same Number about Tradition before Scripture was answered before it was written The Word in the Substance of it was before the Church which was begotten by it and when there is now as much need and as great certainty of Tradition as formerly then urge it And I thank you for Saint Irenaeus's Testimony I do not lye at catch but the most convincing dispute is by our Adversaries principles not the Fathers but yours as you apply them for we can make very good use of his words If the Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveyed to us as the Gospel was before it was written and this confirmes for me what was said before but now I assume the Scripture is now left to us therefore is there no need of certain conveyance of Tradition to us Surely you have a minde to help us for your own good Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations you speak of did rely onely upon Tradition they might be commended to the doctrine of the Gospel by Tradition and then not believe it for the sake of Tradition for this is the state of the question Tradition in matters of Faith unwritten is of equal authority to Scripture Secondly If you say Salvation was written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost this may be meant to be done not onely beside Scripture but besides Tradition and thus was it done extraordinarily But why Thirdly Might not the Holy Spirit infuse Faith of the Gospel into those Nations by some of those who were Apostles or sent from them to Preach it and then the Tradition you speak of is the matter of the Gospel which is written and so it doth not appertain to the question of Traditions of proper name which you say are beside that which is written though not against it and then your discourse is fallacious from that which is the object of the Gospel delivered to that which is beside it delivered which ambiguity of the word Tradition if it doth deceive you yet doth it not consequently deceive me but if you mean Tradition here onely of the manner of communicating the matter of Scripture without writing then the former answer may satisfie you that Tradition was then more certain and they were more assured of it by the Spirit of God then we are now And also it might be to them as the Star to the Wise Men for leading them to Christ By the light of the Star they were guided to Christ but when they came to him they saw him not by the light of the Star but by the light of the Day so some might be directed to the Gospel by Tradition before they had the Scripture and then believed it by the light of Scripture You add also neither did the Apostles or their Successors take any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such Languages as they could all or the greater part understand So you This is readily denyed for God did take care that the New Testament should for the most part of it at least be first written in Greek And the Greek you know in the notion of the New Testament is contradistinguished to the Jew because so many of the world besides the Jews were Greeks and the Greeks Language was the most common then and therefore saith Tully in his Oration for the Poet Archias Graeca per totum orbem leguntur And God by his gracious Providence hath taken care that the Scripture should be translated into divers languages as you may know that so several Nations might have it familiar to them in their own Tongue which must condemn your Church for not permitting of it ordinarily to the people in their own dialect and also doth conclude that Tradition is no Infallible provision for a rule of Faith for how shall the people undoubtedly know that the Traditions were clearly discerned true from them which were false and also that they were faithfully handed through so many Centuries to the present time And yet if so this would not be sufficient for your use unlesse you or others could finde these two points more one how to evade a Circle by proving the Traditions by the Church and the Church by the Traditions and the second this that those Traditions have Infallibly decided the differences betwixt us which the Antients did not professedly handle as having not provocations thereunto If any thing be touched by the by you may know the rule Aliud agentis parva autoritas In your 20. Number you make a recapitulation of what you think you have done and I think you have undone untill you come to Sixthly I have found a lawful Judge who can be informed of all Controversies
that the invisible Church shall not perish which is true although the visible Church be under a possibilitie to erre since every errour is not destructive of salvation In the 25. Number you tell me what you have said before but that you have given me some additional Testimonies in the supplement of the last which have their answer without repetition Onely you no where I think find that Saint Jerome did receive all those books which you receive for Canonical and for those Authours which held the Consubstantiality of the Son and those several properties of the Holy Trinity you will give me leave with judicious men to suspect Eusebius Beleeve your Cardinal herein Bellarmin in his De Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis p. 94.5 6. where he brings the attestation of Saint Athanasius and Saint Jerome to the same purpose and Saint Jerome calls him not onely an Arrian but the Prince of the Arrians sometimes sometimes the Ensign-bearer Yea the 7. Synod he sayes and the Apostolical Legats rejected his authority as being an Arrian Heretique as he saies And as for Austins expression that the relying on the Church's authority is the most true and inviolable Rule of Faith you refer it to your 16. Number and there referre me to the 13. chapter of the first book Contra Cresconium which I cannot see there If it should be so disertly yet this must be understood respectively to those cases wherein the Scripture doth not clearly passe the Verdict in which the authority of the Church is the best rule we can then have as towards practice But this in his Opinion doth not absolutely leave us to follow Tradition of the Church in points of Faith unlesse he contradicts himself as you shall see at the end But you are afraid of want of Number to make noise because you say I said you had no other Testimony but Saint Austins I did not say that you had none but his absolutely but you had none but his that I could see of those you produced Neither him indeed if you please to tell us what you see Therefore we shall look over your reinforcing his and the main testimony for your cause in my answer whereunto I see yet no place for amendments or abatement I said if you consider the whole tenâ—â—r of the chapter you may be inclined to think that it came from him in some heat of dispute and methinks I may think so still Your men are wont to answer evidences of the Fathers which are against them when they please that such passages came from them not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and surely we may have that liberty when there is such occasion given for us to interpret them as here if we consider how he was displeased with himself for a former respect to that Epistle and also if we take notice of his short returns of discourse in this Epistle and also if we mark his check and correcting and taking up himself towards the end of the chapter with an absit Sed absit ut ego Evangelio non credam And if this answer doth not weigh with you then I gave you another that this might be spoken of himself not in sensu composito as then but in sensu diviso as in order to that time when he was a Manichee himself To which purpose I told you it was familiar to him and other writers of that part of the world to expresse a tense more then past by the imperfect and the sense is that when he was a Manichee he would not have believed the Gospel but that the authority of the Church had moved him to it One place of this usage I found to be in a chapter you quoted in his De Predestinatione Sanct. lib. 2. cap. 1. s 14. Qui igitur opus est ut eorum ferutemur opuscula qui priusquam ista haresis â—riretur non habuerunt necessitatem in hâc difficili ad solvendum quastione versari quod procul dubio facerem si respondere talibus cogerentur where you have the Imperfect Tense for the Tense more past facerent for fecissent and so the other So in his first Book of Retract cap. 51. Profecto non dixissem si jam â—uns essem literis Sucris ita eruditus ut recolerem where you have essem for fuissem and so the other And also by the way let me observe somewhat from those two places towards the main question besides the use of them in the way of Criticisme For by the former you have the reason why the Tradition of the Church in Doctrines received will not make an end of our differences since the questions were not then started and also by the second you may observe that we cannot swallow all that was said by Saint Austin without chewing since he sayes himself that had he been so well instructed he would not have said this and that And indeed his books of Retractations are books against you and do conclude wholly that we are not to take whatsoever the Fathers wrote to be as true as Gospel Yea some such books of Retractations all of them might have made as some think Origen did although they are perished as to us But the answers which I gave you to that passage of Saint Austin will not content you Therefore you endevour to shew at large that they will not serve You say unlesse he will stand to that ground he must needs seem to say nothing against his Adversary What ground do you mean VVhat that he was moved by the Churches Infallible Authority as you would conclude at every turn No supposing him not to speak in aestu Sermonis yet what he said against his Adversary was reasonable without urging the Infallible authority For the consent of the Church might be considered by him as a condition towards the reception of any doctrine and yet not to be that which he built his Faith upon as upon an Infallible ground You may know the Causa sine qua non is not a cause although such a thing be not without it yet is not this the cause thereof And therefore make what you can of the place it will not afford you a firm foundation if his authority could do it You say that this is his first argument to shew that his Adversary by citing Texts out of the Gospel to prove Manichaeus a true Apostle could prove nothing against those who as yet have not believed the Gospel So you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and what then Because the Adversary can prove nothing by Scripture to those that deny it therefore Saint Austin must infer that the authority of the Church is infallible and he must believe the Gospel upon no other ground VVhat consequence is this as if because Saint Austins adversary cared not for the judgement of the Church therefore we must be guilty of that which is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which hath so much wronged the Church as nothing more This
as they most prudently believed what the Prophets taught them by word of mouth to be infallibly true because spoken by those whom God gave Commission to say what they said so they most prudently believed what the same men did deliver to them by their writings as Gods Word because written by those whom God gave Commission unto to write what they writ The credit and belief given as well to their writings as to their words unwritten was at last found prudently accepted upon the Motives upon which they accepted their Commissions as given by God for their infallible instruction All were moved prudently to accept of this their Commission because God did own it for his by several Miracles or other most apparent proofs testifying to the people the infallible Commission which those Prophets and Scripture writers had to teach them by words or writing or both Their wits then were induced to accept of this their Commission as truly given by God moved thereunto by such prudent Motives that it had been a high act of imprudence which in point of salvation is damnable to have disbelieved them for example they did either see such apparent Miracles or such notorious force of Doctrine working visibly so strange changes of manners and in so many before so vitious to a life very Vertuous and sometimes vertuous in a stupidious degree The writers of the New Testament had these divine attentions yet more abundantly though the others cannot be denied sufficient whence as from their only words not yet written many thousands received their faith because they first prudently were induced by these Motives to acknowledge them to have had a true Commission from God to say to us in his Name all that they said and then because they acknowledged this Commission to be from God they believed infallibly all what they said because they said it with Commission from God to say it So by their words now written by them in the Scriptures which they delivered unto them many thousands received their Faith because first prudently they were induced by these Motives to acknowledge these writers to have had a true Commission from God to write what they did write in his Name and then because they acknowledged this Commission to have been from God they did believe infallibly all that they did write because they did write it with Commission from God Thus you see upon what assurance those who first received the Scriptures did receive them for Gods VVord The Apostles gave their writings to the prime Prelates and Pastors of the Church assuring them in Gods Name that these writings were Gods VVord These Pastors and Prelates preached to the people that they should admit of these writings as Gods true VVord VVhat they preached was believed with an infallible assent upon the authoritie of the prime Pastours of the Church They were prudently induced to give an infallible assent to their authority by these strong Motives by which they had demonstrated themselves to have Commission from God to teach his Doctrine both by word and writing Thus was the first Age assured of Gods Word by the Oral Tradition of the first Pastors of the Church assuring them also that the Spirit of truth would abide with the Church teaching her all truth and that they were to hear the Church under pain of being accounted Publicans and Heathens and that she should be unto them as the piller and ground of truth for as they did write so doubtless they did teach these things These first Christians then received this doctrine with an assent as infallible as they received the Scriptures And so all then believed and all taught their Successors to believe the Church to have such infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost that in all doubts arising about faith they were to submit unto her as to one having Commission from God to declare all such matters The second Age by so universal so full so manifest a tradition was most prudently induced to acknowledge the church to have such a Commission from God and so they believe the Church for this divine authority given her Now there is nothing which can make any thing more prudently credible then universal tradition A miracle to confirm that there is such a City as London though in it self it were a surer motive would not work so undoubted a beliefe in the minds of those who never did see London as universal tradition worketh And yet this tradition is but one of the motives which induceth us to acknowledge the Church to have received Commission to declare with infallible authority the Verities received from the Apostles and consequently her declarations to be admitted with infallible assent for her authority But I must needs note that this motive of tradition alone did serve to make all for the first 2000 yeares and more give an infallible assent to their Church see Ch. 4. Number 11. yet here I intreat you to mark how they resolved their faith then Why did they believe then that the Soul was immortal Because God said so by his Church having Commission to teach us all we are to believe Why believed they that this Church had Commission to teach them as Authorized with due infallibilitie Because the same Church told them so Why did they believe this Because they would do so And they would do so because it had been meere folly not to accept of this Churches Commission to teach them infallibly all truths which Commission they knew by tradition to have been ever accepted as divine by all good people so we c. I will adde one Motive more 33. Miracles are called a Testimony greater then Iohn the Baptist Christ himself said If you will not believe me believe my Works By this great testimony of Miracles God hath often owned the doctrine of the Romane Church even as it is in this our dayes For he knoweth but litle of the world who doth not know the vast extent of those Provinces and Kingdomes which in this last Age the Preachers of the Roman Faith have added to their Faith by this Testimony of God by Signes and Wonders and divers Miracles Hebrewes 2.4 And here most Visibly Our Lord ever working withall and confirming their words by Signes and Miracles It appeareth also by the History of Bede and the plain confession of your learned Magdeburgians that the faith brought into our England by St. Austin was the same faith which you abolished by your Reformation as you call it And yet again it appeareth by Bede and St. Gregory his Epistles that wonderful were the miracles which St. Austin wrought in Confirmation of the faith preached in so much that St. Gregory thought it necessary to admonish him of conteining himself in humility lest the working of so many miracles should puff him up These Preachers preached the Doctrine of our Church God confirmed their Doctrine by miracles Therefore the doctrine of our Church was confirmed by miracles And it may for this motive
them and which not For the sense even in necessary matters as I have shewed in the last Chapter is far from being evident Again Tradition doth of its own selfe naturally continue in its full force and vigour after the same things are wrirten as well as it did before as appears by what I just now said of the unwritten traditions by which many men only know France or Spain yea rather the increasing of it by being divulged in writing by most credible and manifold Authors doth very much strengthen this former tradition so far is it from taking any thing from it wherefore God must purposely by a miracle have infringed the course of Nature which no man can say he did if the former Traditions of the Church which before the writing of any Scripture did fully suffice alone to ground an infallible faith of such and such points should grow then to lose their sufficiency in order to the same effect when they were strengthned by so great an authority as that of the Sacred Writers was Hence is confuted the opinion of Protestants teaching the Authority of Traditions to have expired when the whole Canon of the Scripture was finished though not before For which they have no Scripture at all And if they go by reason they are to say Tradition was rather more strengthned yea if they will not say this yet consequently they should say that Tradition revived againe at least in part when some part of the Canon was lost yet you ought not to say that Tradition expired at the finishing of the Canon without it can be shewed that God did expresse this unto the Church so to undeceive those many thousands who had then reason to think that they might securely build their beliefe upon that upon which for about foure thousand yeares so many had untill that day built their faith When Saint Paul or any other Canonical writer preached first that doctrine which afterward he did write did the beliefe of those thousands which was at first sufficiently grounded upon his preaching come to lose its certainty or rather to gain a new degree of certainty when Saint Paul came afterward to write that they must hold the Traditions he had delivered to them 2 Thess 2. 1 Gal. 2. and that though an Angel should come and teach them contrary to what they had received by his Orall Tradition they should account him Anathema And again Have thou a form of sound words which thou hast heard of me 1. Tim. chap. 1. And again chap. 2. the things which thou hast heard he saith not read of me by many witnesses these commend to faithfull men which shall be fit to teach others also Would the writing of such Scriptures make them think any force taken from Traditions or rather make them conceive that Traditions are to be stood upon now more then ever before Again what wise man would put out one light costing him nothing because it will be shining of its own nature unlesse you will needs have it hidden because he hath now another light but so that even with both these lights many of his house-hold will still remain in darkness But if you say that if Scripture had not been given us we should have had a more certain Tradition given unto us I would know of you upon what account the Tradition of so Noble a Church as Christs Church is should be of lesse credit or certainty then the Tradition of that farre lesse Noble Church which was in the Law of Nature What meanes had they then given by God to secure their Tradition for the space of 4000. years which we want for the having secured our Traditions for these last 1654. yeares This meanes you can by no means assigne and therefore by all means you must grant the Traditions of this Nobler Church to have been as securely preserved from Corruption for these fewer yeares as those Traditions of a farre lesse Noble Church were preserved without corruption for above 4000 yeares Again the Tradition of Christs primitive Church before the Scriptures were written and sufficiently promulged which Tradition did by an infallible authority recommend all things was to be believed upon her sole authority and so was the Tradition of the first Church before there was any Scripture and therefore by good consequence she in the first place recōmended herauthority to be believed as divine and infallible and all the true believers believed it to be so which they could not have done without God had said so for all divine beliefe resteth upon the saying of God God therefore said by that his Church that her Traditions were infallible for her authority Now if God said this shall we upon your fallible discourse come to say the Church's Traditions are now no longer infallible though God said they were so and never yet expressed the ceasing of their infallibility By this you will see whether my Answer hath helped you or your reply helped me concerning what will follow out of St. Irenaeus 13. For this serves for making good what I said out of St. Irenaeus so farre as he is a witness which a profane author might have been of what hapned so near his times For as for his authority as he is a most grave Father of the Church and a most believing that to be true which he commended to writing as most true I doe not presse it against you Yet because here you thank St. Irenaeus for his testimony and make a shew as if it were for you though you cannot invent the means by which Tradition should have ben conveighed more certainly supposing there had been no Scripture I could not but observe how so soon as you have hugged him you cast him off again with small respect when you say Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations did rely only upon Tradition They might be commended to the doctrine of the Gospel by Tradition and then not believe it for the sake of Tradition How flatly be these your words against St. Irenaeus who clearly declareth all himselfe to tell us upon what ground we must have been obliged to believe though the Apostles had never written any Scriptures at all What saith he if the Apostles had not left us the Scriptures must we not have followed that order of Tradition which they delivered to those to whose Charges they left the Church to be governed To this order of tradition by the unwritten word many barbarous Nations do assent who have believed in Christ without any writings keeping diligently the ancient Traditions What bringeth he this example of these Barbarous Nations for but to shew that we might with divine faith believe upon the sole account of that very tradition which the Apostles de facto left to those to whom they left the Churches goverment although the Apostles had never written at all at any time He therefore was none of those who would say with you neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations
did rely only upon traditions For if they had relied upon any things else in their beliefe their example had bin nothing to his purpose to shew what we should have done when we had only Tradition to rely upon 14. As for arguing about Tradition I went no Further then to shew that the Tradition of the Church testifying her own infallibility in proposing for Gods word that which she delivereth us for Gods Word as worthy of an infallible assent in this point And the examples I bring prove this Now if this point be once assented unto with an infallible assent it draweth by unevitable Consequence the like assent to all other points which by the same authority are testified to be likewise delivered as Gods Word Or else you must be forced to say that it is in our power to assent to this authority as divine in all things it delivers as Gods Word and yet to deny it in some things which it delivers as Gods word which is a plain contradiction Well then if upon this presupposed authority as infallible I believe the Church delivering such and such points by her doctors and teachers which be points never written then it is manifest I believe her in other points then those which were then written so I may with as good reason believe her now upon her own authority testifying other points then those which are written Whence you see all I say holdeth good even in Traditions of proper name which we say are besides that which is written I cannot conclude more opposite to you then with your own words here P. 73. Tradition in matters of faith unwritten is of equall authority to scripture The Traditions we stand upon be matters of faith truly once revealed by our Saviour or his Apostles though this revelation were not written by them Therefore this is of equall authority to Scripture even according to your own words 15 I going on to prove yet further that Christ intended to guide us not by the Scripture only but cheifly by his Church used this argument Neither the Apostles nor their Successors took any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such languages as all or the greater part of them could understand You answer they did take care that the new Testament should be written in Greek Then you being still to prove that Greek was understood by all or the greater part of the world your only proof of this is only out of Tully saying Graeca per totum Orbem leguntur Greek is read though the whole World and so is Virgil in latin But neither the one nor the other is to be understood in a sense making to our purpose for both these sayings are only true thus that the more learned sort of men every where read Greek and Virgil. And these words of Tully being delivered in on Encomiasticall Oration pro Archia may truely be said to be spoken by way of a Notable amplification And either this must be confessed or Scripture denied For it is evident out of Scripture That the Vulgar language of diverse Nations situated even between that place we call Constantinople and the Citty of Antioch in which a man would suppose the Greek language farre more common then in the more Western or any Northern or Southern places yet I say even between those two Cities of Antioch where the same Tully saith Archias was born and studied and Constantinople the Greek tongue was not the Vulgar language of Pontus Cappadocia Asia minor Phrygia Pamphilia all which Nations the Scripture Act. 2. testifieth to have had different languages Within that compasse is also Galatia which Saint Hierome testifieth to have had a language somewhat like those of Trevers If nations so neere Greece had not the Vulgar use of that language but that tongue had so small a compasse even in Asia and some few Eastern parts of Europe all other parts of Europe and whole Africa using Vulgarly other Tongues how short do you fall of proving that Greek was understood by the greater part of the World And if this cannot be proved then I said truly that though the Apostles writ the new Testament in Greek yet they did not take any care to have it communicated to all Nations in such Languages as they could all or the greater part understand For all or the greater part could not understand Greek call here to mind how lowd you use to cry out against us for using our Common prayer in Lattin though Lattin be so common among all well bred people And yet our Cōmon prayer is a thing only offered to God by the Priests who understand what they say for the people But the New Testament contains as you say the only necessary groūd of faith faith necessary to salvation But the falsity of this your saying is convinced by the Apostles taking no care neither read we of any care taken for many yeares after their times to communicate the whole Canon of Scripture to the severall converted Nations in their several tongues I pray name me the time when the Scripture can be first shewed to have bin thus communicated to the people of so severall languages You will sweat for some hundred yeares before you can find this either done or effectually desired to be done They know the tongue could sufficiently deliver Gods Word to the people and that Orall Tradition joyned to dayly profession practise would abundantly suffice for the infallible delivery of Gods Word 16. You move the question how the people should clearly know the true tradition from the false I answer first they could know this better then know true Scripture from false for they could not do that but by knowing first the true Tradition recommending the true Scriptures from the Tradition recommending false Again after Christ they could do this as well and better then their forefathers for many hundreds of years yea for two thousand yea for twice two thousand yeares together Reflect a little upon the efficacy of Tradition joyned with perpetual profession and answerable practice dayly occurring For example The Apostles by onely unwriting Tradition did clearly undeniably teach the baptizing of Children prayer for the faithfull departed This Tradition from hence came to be Professed as true doctrine by all the first Christians and conformably hereunto they in all places baptized their Children in all places they prayed for the faithfull departed Nothing more common then being born every one that is born dieth whence dayly was the practice of baptizing infants and yet more dayly the practice of praying for the dead because they baptize infants but once but they pray often for the same man who is dead Will we suppose these two traditions are called in question concerning the truth of them And let us suppose this to be done as it was done in the last age Learned men looking in Records of their own and all other Countries will find every where Christnings and every where prayers
for the dead all inscriptions of graves all wills and testaments all foundations of pious places will testifie this custome farre more strongly then that of Baptisme yea in no one countrey nor in any one age since Christ untill this last following age did ever any one man deny praying for the dead except Aerius counted for this his opinion an Heretick by St. Austin and by St. Epiphanius as you know very well Hence it is made evidently credible to any learned man that this Tradition of baptizing Infants and much more the Tradition of praying for the dead came to us from the Apostles it not being possible for all true believers in so many severall countries and so many severall ages to agree in the profession and daily practice of this truth without they had received these two things joyntly with their first faith else the novelty and the authors of such a novelty would in some time or some place have been made known to posterity for no one mans worke was it no nor no one hundred mens worke to bring all men every where to any such novelty with so unanimous and no where contradicted consent The Ignorant people will have the truth of these Traditions also made evidently credible unto them by the publick unanimous and universal consent of all antient men and all Ancient Monuments and also the like unanimous affirmation of all learned men of any standing who will all and every where profess themselves assured of it by their Learning and certain knowledge of those Traditions proved in the manner I now said This maketh the matter evidently credible to the ignorant Wherefore they should do most imprudently not to believe that these points came from the Apostles and then supposing that they came from them they should do a damnable sin not to believe them Can any rationall man desire a more rational proceeding How many true believers commended in Scripture cannot give so prudent a reason for what they believed How we proceeding thus escape clearly all Circle I told you the last Chapter Numb 31.32 Now as you must grant that our Church submitted unto as infallible presently by her authority decides all controversies so her Traditions once acknowledged as infallible will decide the points questioned The Scripture never so clear can never decide any one controversie untill it be first acknowledged Thus you see the two things which you here desired to see 17. After this I passed to another quality which the Church hath and the Bible hath not though it be a quality primely necessary to decide all controversies whence it appeareth that God intended not the Bible but the Church to be our judge This quality is that the Church is a living judge who can be informed of all Controversies arising from time to time and who can heare me and you and be heard by me you so manifestly that neither I nor you can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we do doubt we can propose our doubts and she will explicate her meaning Such a living judge as this we must have to put effectually an End to all Controversies that can arise And as for the Bible I have shewed that it doth not decide all points necessary to Salvation the Bible heareth not new Controversies arising as I prove by this clear example An Arrian staâ—â—eth up as really he did and saith that these words of the Scripture These three are one are words added by us to the true Scripture This Controversie and a thousand such like the Bible heareth not the Bible judgeth not for there is not a word of it in all the Bible And though you say you can see true Scripture by its light you shall never get any man to believe that you your selfe do really believe that you see every verse in Scripture by its light No light appeareth so dimm as these words appear to man Three are one Yet besides this light you who reject Church Tradition as fallible you I say have left you no other infallible ground nor any infallible meanes to convince the Arrian untill you hold the Church infallible All other use which you say you make of the Church sufficeth not to ground an infallible assent for when all comes to all you make any private man and consequently every Arrian Cobler as I shewed the last Court of Judicature in giving the finall sentence on which all depends For he must be the last judge who after the Churches judgement must give sentence that she hath or hath not judged against Scripture That you may see my argument is not peccant I will frame both the Premisses and the Conclusion thus Faith being an infallible assent Controversies concerning faith cannot be determined so as to end then effectually but by an infallible living judge who can heare you and me and be heard by you and me But no other then the Church can with any ground be held to be this living judge Therefore She must be held to be this judge I doe not without Reason put in my Premisses the terme of infallible for faith being an infallible assent must needs require an infallible authority to rest upon This Authority she must find in all points to which she is bound to give this assent But she is bound to give this assent to diverse points not proposed clearly in Scripture as I shewed the last Chapter Therefore she is bound to give this assent to diverse of those points onely because they are proposed by the Church to which she could not possibly be bound to give an infallible assent without due assurance of her infallibility 48 You object that the Church Traditions cannot hear you and me I answer that it is the Church who proposeth these Traditions and not the Traditions which are our judge you ask me whither an Heretike be not condemned by himselfe as Saint Paul saith and you interpret his saying so that he must needs be condemned by himselfe for no other reason but because he had in him the principles of the word of God which he gain-said by his contrary error and so he was condemned thereby and therefore that can Judge Sir he is not an Heretike but an infidel who is told by his own Conscience that he gain-saith the Scripture All christians are readier to die then to disbelieve any one saying of the Scripture When St. Paul writ those words the whole Canon of the Scripture was not written and until the whole Canon was written your own Doctors grant the Church to have ben the infallible judge of Controversies And I wonder you should say the Church at the writing of this by St. Paul was not sufficiently formed which the same St. Paul testifieth to have been formed before his conversion accusing himselfe for having above measure persecuted the Church of God And before his conversion the Number of the disciples was multiplied Act. 6. yea Act. 8. Simon Magus was turned Heretick before St. Paul was turned
for Iudith Then one of the Councils must erre either that which established Iudith and not the rest or that which established Iudith and the rest namely that of Carthage wihch my Adversary saies S. Ierome had not seen One thought them not fit to be declared Canonical another thought them to be fit And is not this a contradiction of Council to Council Again Bellarmine saies that S. Ierome did afterwards receive the Book of Iudith Now I desire to know how much time that after doth suppose for If S. Ierome had received it presently we should have heard of it if much time after as it might be by the words then the Authority of the Church seemed not to S. Ierome so intuitively to oblige as the Antagonists suppose Had he thought the Church infallible would he have stuck at it Do not the Romanists know the rule in Tacitus Qui de liberant desciverunt They which deliberate have already revolted What he would have me note by the way that the Fathers of the Council of Carthage did acknowledge the Maccabees for true Scripture it is no difficult matter to give account to For first he goes upon a false Principle that if those Fathers were of our Religion then we must make them agree with us in this prime Principle upon which we receive all Scripture as Gods infallible Word This is not so for my living Adversaries may know that one who hath defended our Religion hath been quoted to me as differing from me in this point and that is Mr. Chillingworth Though all that are of this opinion are like to be of our Religion yet all of our Religion it seems are not of this opinion For indeed the Protestant Religion supposeth the Scripture to be the Word of God as a common Principle and therefore also there should not have been any contestation about this point if our Adversaries had not been resolved to question all Religion which is not properly theirs Secondly Therefore they might have received Scripture upon the Authority of Universal Tradition which also abstracts from the Roman Impropriation Thirdly Since they had not Universal Tradition for those Apochryphal Bookes as it seems by S. Ierom we cannot neither upon that account be ingaged to receive them as Canonical Fourthly Since they did not receive them by Universal Tradition as appears also by Cyril of Ierusalem as before and since they are not to be discerned by their own light as my Adversaries will confess nor by the conditions of the matter what reason shall we have to receive them For if they say the Council was assisted by the Holy Ghost we ask what was it assisted as a Council or as such a Council if as a Council why had not the other the same Assistance if as such a Council how shall we discern which Council the Holy Ghost will assist unto infallibility Et solos credit habendos Esse Deos quos ipse colit N. 45. In this he is pleased to move again the same stone which will in the end return upon himself again For how came one Council to acknowledge the Maccabees and another not were not the former Council as well irradiated as the latter Yes they were more in all account but of my Adversary who is not in so good a capacity to grant that the Argument from Authority of the Church graduates its strength by the greater nearness to the Primitive For he holds an equal assistance of the Spirit to the Church at all times But the old saying was Quò antiquius eò melius And the rule is good Ut se habet simpliciter ad simpliciter ita magis ad magis maximè ad maximè if it be good as ancient then the more ancient the more good And this at other times is the advantage which the Romanists would take in claiming the credit of the Original Church to them And besides he might have considered that he had no reason to bring this about again because the reason of their reception as was said before is expressed to depend upon the custome of their being read in the Church which doth not make them or declare them to be Canonical unles in S. Ieroms distinction for the edifying of the people in manners not for confirmation of faith Well then if one Council might see what another did not without prejudice to the object then S. Ierome might not see or Luther what S. Austin did without prejudice to the credibility of Scripture Yea it is not yet proved that S. Austin accounted the Book of Maccabees as Canonical as other Books But this is actum agere And again he repeats what he hath not done Let them not trouble us for they have lost their strength And yet again S. Matthews Gospel N. 46. He had better have solidly proved which he sleightly puts off the proof of in the end of the last section that they do not prove the infallibility of the Church first by Scripture I assure them this is a Fort-royal and therefore this should be made good at all hands Well but let us see his Argument in the face about S. Matthews Gospel which he saies he hath forced a passage to Surely he had no such reason to rally and obtrude this Argument again and to be so confident of it as to say boldly that it cannot possibly by our Principles ever come to be believed with an infallible assent to be Gods true uncorrupted word Why not Nay here is all of this no proof We looked for a Spear like a Weavers Beam or else some new Sword whereby the Philistin thought to have slain David but here is none yet Yea Sâ—apleton shall sufficiently answer him with a contradiction as before who saies It is not absolutely necessary to Faith that it should be produced by the Authority of the Church but it may be caused immediately by the Spirit of God So then it is possible by our Principles to believe it with an infallible assent to be the Word of God And before a Church was formed how did the material Members believe any point of Faith then it is possible But then he slides to another way as he thought of urging hiâ— Argument and that is the Marcionites the Cerdonists and the Manichaeans do deny and others may come to deny the Gospel of S. Matthew to be Gods true Word Yea but this is another question It is one thing to believe it to be Gods Word and another to prove it to him that denies it to be Gods Word Now the question in hand is how we believe it to be Gods Word And therefore we say as to such we deal with them as we deal with others who deny any part of Scripture not by the Authority of the Roman Church and therefore the Romanists get nothing by this Argument but by Universal Tradition as a common Argument which rather makes a Scholastical Faith than a Faith Divine of proper name So that also he cannot reasonably
Texts confirm the certainty of Traditions we grant it namely of those Traditions which were afterwards written but how do these Texts confirm the certain necessity of those that are not written And therefore thirdly He is mightily disappointed if he conceives those Texts should bind us to stand upon Traditions now more than ever for the formality of Tradition was there sunk in the writing and the matter of Tradition was the same with that which was writtten in his own confession unless he drives the Texts Heterogeneously to his own words And he impingeth upon the same stone again What wise man would put â—ut one light costing him nothing because it will be shining of its own nature unless you will needs have iâ— hidden because he hath now another light but so that even with both those lights many of his houshold will still remain iâ— darkness Ans He supposeth a light added to a light It is well then that Scripture is assured to be one light but his Tradition should be compared to a light when there is no other light namely when the Scripture is defective Secondly If he thinks Tradition is a light costing us nothing he may be deceived for it will cost a great deal of Scrutiny since we cannot see it shining of its own nature infallibly And thirdly If some be still in darknese with both those lights then surely they may be more in darkness with but one and that is Tradition therefore they should allow the people the light of the Scripture since both too little as he saies to some But fourthly What if one light put out the other in the true state of the question namely Scripture Tradition superadded in matter And what wise man will light a straw candle in the Fathers expression when the Sun shines the Sun-light of Scripture puts out the straw-light of Traditions condemning those who teach for Doctrines Traditions of men which the Romanist does in some proportion And fifthly what wise man would have such a light which serves his turn best when it shines least for Traditions if we believe our Adversaries are a covered dish dainties to be kept private for those who are fit to receive them the more wise and perfect men which may teach them to others The mystery of Salvation that is made common by writing but the mystery of Tradition is put under a bushel The mystery of the Trinity is delivered in Scripture but the mystery of the Trent Traditions must not be familiarly known So then say they what they will or can we shall sooner find an extinguisher for the light of the rush candle than they for the light of the Sun But if you say that if Scripture had not been given us we should have had a more certain Tradition given us So he delivers my words which were not so but thus If Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us as the Gospel was before it was written Now some difference there is betwixt given us and left us for that which is left to us is intended for our constant use which that which is given doth not connotate So some Pontificians will say the Scripture was given upon particular occasion but was not left to the Church as a fixed universal rule But there is yet more betwixt us about my words we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us so I said he reports me thus we should have had a more certain Tradition given unto us A more certain Tradition given and a Tradition more certainly conveighed are not altogether the same the former supposeth the matter of Tradition as not certain and this we can deny as to those times when there was no Scripture as written the other speaks de modo tradendi which comes closer to our question For we can perswade our selves that God who is graciously provident for his Church wherein he hath placed his Name would have taken care that if there had not been a certain direction in writing the matter of necessary Doctrine and practice should have been more certainly communicated to us So then he thrives very little by compare of the Christian Church with the Jewish although the Christian Church be more noble For first the compare must be of the Jewish with the whole Christian Church because the Jewish Church Proselyts being included therein namely Proselyts of the Covenant as they were distinguished was all the Church there was And secondly Because no part of the whole Church can compare with the Jewish Church as to priviledges and then by this reckoning how little of Nobility will fall to their share Thirdly As the Tradition which was it whereby the matter of Scripture was proposed was for the time necessary before the matter of Scripture was written so also must the Tradition of the Christian Church be considered as in relation to the time before which the matter of the New Testament was written therefore he should have pleaded if he would have it done patly that there was any Tradition of Faith after the Old Law was written beside what was written which was to be believed unto Salvation equally to what was written and then have drawn down a parallel Line of proportion of the same though he would have more nobility for the Christian Church Thirdly If the nobleness of a Church be antecedent to more certain Tradition as he thinks then how happened it that there was so little a time betwixt the preaching of the Gospel and the writing of it It seems then if God provides for Churches according to the nobleness of them that the better provision for the Church is by Scripture The Christian then hath a more certain way of Faith than by Tradition And as for means of securing Tradition in the Christian Church which he compares with the Jewish in he hath no cause to bragg For first they cannot say or prove that they have all Traditions in number formal and material Secondly They do not practice all How many are there which St. Basil speaks of in his Tract de Sp. Sanct. which they observe not Thirdly The safety of them is in the whole Church and yet forsooth every one must not know them Fourthly If so then have they reason to blush that they have been more careful to keep Tradition than Scripture and particularly of the Hebrew Copy of St. Matthew and is this for their credit Fifthly Are the Scriptures preserved uncorrupt or not If not how have they been faithful as before If so then why do their learned men obtrude the Authentiqueness of their Latin upon this account that when this Edition was made the Scriptures were pure and uncorrupted but corrupted since Again the Tradition of Christ's Primitive Church before the Scripture was written and sufficiently promulged was to be believed upon her sole Authority Ans If he takes that Tradition inclusively to the Apostles who preached that which they did write
afterwards and take Tradition for the matter of what was written we grant it if but he takes tradition of the primitive Church to be that which was derived to after times and was not written we deny it to be believed upon her sole Authority In the former sense it is true but not pertinent in the latter pertinent but not true And indeed this was the notion of Traditions for the first times namely to be that sâ—â—â—â—e of doctrine which did comprehend the materialls of faith 〈◊〉 to be any thing different from Scripture or diverse 〈…〉 first of the Gal. 8. doth not signifie contra but praeâ—â—â— from Scripture So he will finde Irenaeus to mean it And so St. Cyrill of Jerusalem in his 5. Cat. 117. p of the gr last Ed. makes it to be upon account no other than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the System out of the Holy Scriptures about every of those things conteined And again 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for things of faith were not composed as it pleased men but the most pertinent things being gathered out of all Scripture do make up the doctrine of faith And again as the seed of mustard in a little grain doth contein many branches so faith it self in few words doth comprehend the knowledge of piety that is in the old and new Testament And what followes but that text which he my adversary named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see therefore Brethren and hold the Traditions So then if he takes Tradition in the first sense the Church was infallible therein by the Apostles if in the second the Tradition was infallibly Scripture and the Church believed it upon that account And that Traditions did not bind either in their own virtue or without Scripture they may see in St. Basil who yet speaks much for them So in the seventh ch of the Holy Ghost where speaking of the controversie whethre they were to say of the Son of God with whome or by whome he hath these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. this is not sufficient to us that it is a Tradition of the Fathers for even they did follow the will of Scripture having taken principles out of testimonies which a little before we proposed to you out of Scripture God therefore said by his Apostles that the Traditions then were infallible being in matter the same with what they wrote for their Authority Now if God said this shall we upon his fallible discourse for even Councils are fallible in their discourse come to say the Church's Traditions are further infallible then agreeable to his word though God never said so and never yet expressed any such infallibility of the Church And thus I return him his own words mutatis mutandis And so my Argument out of Irenaeus is not yet refuted Neither doth he take away my use of Irenaeus testimony in the next paragr For as to my Argument what he saies is not appliable It was thus out of his Authority If the Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us as the Gospel was before it was written but the Scripture is now left to us therefore no need of certain conveighance of tradition to us This Syllogism he makes no offer of answer to for that which he saies in a Parenthesis though you cannot invent the means by which Tradition should have been conveighed more certainly supposing there had been no Scripture I can receive without prejudice to my Argument for whatsoever Hypothetically should have been done had not there been Scripture yet now since we have Scripture we have no such need of we now dispute upon the fact not against the supposition Therefore from the dint of the ratiocination he digresseth to an observation of disrespect in me to St. Irenaeus because I said Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations did rely onely upon Tradition Ans He is in this deceived To assent to Tradition in the matter of it and not to assent to the matter upon the sole Authority of Tradition are not such opposites as he imagines for they may well agree Therefore though the Father said they did assent to Tradition as to the matter yet not by Tradition as the manner Tradition was the objectum materiale not the objectum formale of their Faith And the next words as he also perhibits the Fathers words do defend my answer having Salvation written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost So then they were assured of the Doctrine of Salvation by the Holy Ghost then they did not believe that Tradition upon the sole Authority of the Church So this contradicts my Adversary and makes for me not onely by consequence because it is against him but directly for then we can as well be assured of Scripture by the Holy Ghost have no such need then of the authority of the Church as to salvation though the church were infallible which is one of the things to be proved and cannot And yet besides this tradition in the sense of the Father was in the matter of it Scripture and therefore hath no consanguinity with the true state of the question So then we may conclude in the negative they did not rely upon or believe upon the sole account of that very tradition yet if they had it would not conclude against our cause because that tradition is not the same with what belongs to the question To be civil to an Adversary in this number N. 14. all the sense of it may be resolved into this discourse If the radition of the Church testifying her own infallibility in proposing for Gods Word that which she delivereth for Gods word be to be believed then she is to be believed as proposing that to be Gods Word which is not written Ans This hath been abundantly agitated before with our indemnity to the Plaintiffe but since he repeats I do not And we answer First the consequence is not clear especially if we extend it to that which is not grounded in Scripture if he understands it of that which is grounded in Scripture it is not proper to the question As to that which is not grounded in Scripture we may still deny the major Tradition universal of the Church may be worthy of assent as to the truth of Scripture to be the Word of God and not so of that which is delivered beside Scripture which also is held by others against them and the reason is not yet disproved because there was more necessity of the Faith of Scripture than that which is delivered beside Scripture and therefore may we well suppose a greater assistance to the proposing of Scripture than any thing diverse Deus non deficit in necessariis Why do they assert infallible assistance to General Councils not to private Doctors or to a National Council Namely because others are to be directed by the General Councils well then the Church universal might be more assisted for the proposing of
Scripture than for any thing else But then I deny the minor the Tradition of the Church testifying her own infallibility is not worthy of an infallible assent It may be worthy of the highest degree of moral assurance yet not of an iâ—fal ible assent No Authority can write as to Conscience what a king writes as to civil credit teste me ipso but that which is immediatly divine And why then do the Pontificians prove the Authority of the Church by Scripture The Church without Scripture is not yet Christned if we take Scripture for the substance of the matter it will be but the highest form of Heathens And therefore the Scripture is to be believed antecedently to the Church And how little his examples have proved the minor we have seen even as much as he had cause to conclude against me out of my own words thus Tradition in matters of Faith unwritten is of equal Authority to Scripture The Traditions we stand upon be matters of Faith truly once delivered by our Saviour or his Apostles though the Revelation were not written by them therefore this is of equal Authority to Scripture even according to your own words Surely it is easier to answer this than to forbear the Person The proposition was not my words I hope categorically spoken but as being the state of the question if those Traditions be in the matter beside Scripture And now he takes this to be my affirmation simply And then we deny his minor too because that which they stand upon is not matter of Faith as being not revealed by our Saviour or his Apostles or truly delivered by either for they are uncertain by which And if they will urge that Text St. Iohn the 16.22 as Bellarmin does they may think that many things might be written afterwards or were not points of Faith And this Text hereticks have urged and therefore by my Adversaries Logique he should not And did St. Austin think that any could soberly say that the points of difference were of that number Or did any of the Saints in Heaven see what they were in speculo Trinitatis and did send down word thereof As for his defence of the exception which he took against the Scriptures being a sufficient rule to us N. 15. because neither the Apostles nor their Successours took any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such Languages as all or the greater part of them could understand my answer is yet good the care was taken in that the new Testament was written in Greek which was a common language then And this I gave an Argument of in that the Grecian is contradistinguished to the Jew in the New Testament And therefore the Greek must be the greatest and most famous part and therefore the language common this proof he is not pleased to meddle with at all Another proof that that was the common Language was that of Tully for Archias the Poet Graeca per totum orbem leguntur This he takes notice of And he saies and so is Virgil in Latin But this doth not contradict me yea he gives me a corroboration of my Argument for whom did Virgil imitate Theocritus in his Eglogues Hesiod in his Georgicks Homer in his Aeneids Yea Horace had read the Greeks it seems by his Grecisms Yea Terence was so conversant in Menander that he was called Menander dimidiatus But he saies This is to be understood thus that the most learned sort of men every where read Greek and Virgil. Ans This supposed is not exclusive to the Greeks being the common Language as to others since he will think the Latin was common to the people then and yet the most learned read Virgil. And did not all those Nations whom St. Paul wrote his Epistles to understand Greek Did he write onely to the most learned In what Language was the Epistle to the Romans and the Epistle to the Hebrews for the Roman Church confesseth that this Epistle also was written by St. Paul written were they not both written in Greek yea the Jews that used the Septuagint Translation were many So Philo the Jew and Marcus Antonius the Roman wrote in Greek And therefore that which was spoken by the Oratour was spoken without any such Hyperbole He saies yet further either this must be spoken in way of a notable amplification or Scripture must be denied because even between the two Cities of Antioch and Constantinople the Greek tongue was not the vulgar Language of Pontus Cappadocia Asia minor Phrygia Pamphilia all which Nations the Scripture Act. 2. testifieth to have had different Languages Ans Though the Scripture speaks of them as distinguished in speech yet not in Language but dialect and so it is expressed ver 6.8 And so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be restrained as to those who had several dialects therefore whereas he saies the Greek tongue was not the vulgar Language of Pontus c. If he means that the common Dialect of the Greek was not used by them all this is not much to be stood upon because it is not reasonable to say that those who spake several Dialects did not understand the common Greek for take them all Attique Jonique Dorique Aeolique and Baeotique they differ ordinarily but in terminations or pronunciation from the common Within that compass is also Galatia which St. Jerom testifieth to have had a language somwhat like those of Trevers An. It is as farre from Thebes to Athens as from Athens to Thebes is it not Then that of Trevers must be as neer that of greek as that of the Galatians which was greek in St. Pauls time If afterwards the language altered or was corrupted this doth not contradict us because we must distinguish times And therefore yet it remains good that the greek was understood of the greater part of the world and therefore the Apostles took care to have the knowledge of the Gospel to be commonly understood And if they had not God did miraculously by the gift of the Holy Ghost sub forma visibili in the second of the Acts in the gift of tongues And this concludes against their Latin service as also St. Paul discourseth and concludeth against it in the first Ep. Cor. 14. And though we cannot tell the time when the Scripture can first be shewed to have been thus communicated to the people of severall languages what is this to the purpose If it had not been done afterwards it is enough to us that the Apostles did write in the most common language for those times And if it had not been done it should have been done But that it was done appears seasonably in the great Bible Neither can they tell us or will when the vulgar Latin began first to be Authentique whether under Sixtus Quintus or Clement the eighth In the beginning he tells me that I moved a question how the people should clearly know the true Tradition from the false Ans I did
take him to mean that Aerius was accounted an heretick for this his opinion exclusively to other opinions in a negative precision and then I say it is not true And to bring it to the test one of his Authors shall be mine St. Austin in his Catalogue of heresies N. 53. He tells us of Philaster that he had made an enumeration of heresies and after him more perfectly Epiphanius and he came after them and he gives us an account of the Arrians from Aerius and several things he does say of him that he was sorry that he was not a Bishop and that having fallen in Arrianorum heresin into the heresie of the Arrians he added also some proper opinions saying that we ought not to pray or offer oblations for the dead and that set fasts were not solemnly to be observed and also that a Presbyter ought not to be by any difference distinguished from a Bishop And some said of him that they were also Eneratites and Apotactites So then the result hereof is this if he could not say Aerius was accounted an heretick onely for this Nay St. Austin doth contradistinguish here heresie to proper opinions So he might be an heretick and not for proper opinions because he had fallen into the heresie of the Arrians yea and some account him an heretick for not distinguishing betwixt a Bishop and a Presbyter therefore though his proper opinions were in the judgement of St. Austin heretical yet can it not be said that he was accounted an heretick onely for denying prayers for the dead which was to be shewed by me And if for this opinion disjunctively yet not for denying prayer for the dead in his sense which was to be shewed by him And therefore upon the whole matter we cannot submit to Tradition as infallible because this Tradition in the Roman sense bears false witness of its self nor to the Church if it fallibly pretends infallible Tradition Neither can prudent reason make infallible assent unless the conclusions could be better than their premises Prudent reason were more apt to make Science which they have no cause to be inclinable to neither because it is more opposit to their implicit Faith And he hath no cause therefore to say How many true Beleevers commended in Scripture cannot give so prudent a reason for what they believed Ans All the reason of Faith which can be given if we take Faith in the acception of an infallible assent must be grounded upon infallible principles if any believed upon other account it was not properly Faith and therefore it cannot be said in propriety of the notion which the Romanist also stands upon that they believed Secondly If he takes Faith in a looser sence for an assent upon humane Authority this is not to the question and we can allow Tradition its influence hereunto Thirdly If he means that they could not give a more prudent reason for what they beleived as to others that should ask them a reason of their Faith this we can yield as to universal Tradition that by the inartificial Argument of Authority we can give no more prudent reason than by Tradition But this doth not hit the question whether the testimony private of the Spirit of God makes not a better assurance of Faith to our selves though this is not demonstrable to others that we have this assurance by the Spirit of God Therefore fourthly This will not do the business unless what he saies he proves from Scripture We have urged the contrary in the example of the Beraeans and the term believing in Scripture is not seldom taken not of an internal act of Faith subjective but an external profession of faith objective And so Simon Magus is said to have believed Here he gives us occasion to wish he had done so before as he does here in putting his sense into some form thus Faith being an infallible assent controversies concerning Faith cannot be determined so as to end them effectually but by an infallible living judg who can hear you me be heard by you me but no other than the Church can with any ground be held to be this living Judge therefore she must be held to be the Judge Ans First to the major and we say that it begs the question in two Suppositions First That there is a necessity of controversies in points of Salvation And secondly that it is necessary to Salvation that all controversies though not in points of Salvation should infallibly be determined When these two suppositions are sufficiently made good we shall grant him the major and yet then also that infallible Judge is yet bound to judge by law of Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And then as to the minor we say secondly This speaks for the Church universal which then according to my Adversaries Principles should alwaies have a true Pope and a true standing General Council or else we should think God had not provided for his Church ad semper Now if it be said some controversies may arise which are not so necessary to be decided in order to Salvation then he destroys his major which goes in part upon that Supposition and so in this he is one of us Therefore thirdly We can retort his Argument mutatis mutandis Faith being an infallible assent requires an infallible Authority But the Church is not yet proved to have an infallible Authority therefore it must be the Scripture Fifthly If he means his infallible Living Judge of the Roman Church we deny that this Judge will explicate all doubts for how hath it ended all controversies in the Trent Council Indeed that Council hath made more about the sense of ambiguous definitions and therefore though his major proposition were true de posse which yet we deny upon the former considerations yet we were to seek de velle and then should we be never a whit the nearer And as touching that Text whereby he would prove that the Bible cannot end all controversies because it cannot end the controversie about it with the Arrians these three are one We say first in ingenuity he needed not to have taken notice of it Secondly We should not by right have disputed the subject of the question whether this or that be Scripture or not Our dispute is about the predicates of scripture Thirdly the Arrians were sufficiently condemned by another Text as before and therefore there is no such necessity of the question Fourthly We rather believe the Church than the Arrian herein But let it be put to the pinch and there were more Faith required in it than the matter afforded can the Church determin it by her own Authority infallibly It not why doth he raise the dust If it can why is it not formally done Therefore either this Text hath not given necessary occasion to an infallible Judge or the infallible Judge hath deceived us in not taking the occasion And therefore to put his other discourse into a shorter and better forme
faith but only Opinion or humane belief ANSVVER THe Paper may be resolved into a Supposition and a Reason and a Conclusion To these in order First The Supposition It is not sufficient to make one a Catholick that he believe the same things that a Catholick doth believe unless the Catholick Church be the Ground also of his belief c. as in the Amplification of it This Supposition is indeed the main Position of the Pontificians and that which is formally Constitutive of them in that Denomination so that the Answer to it is not made as to a private Opinion or the Opinion of a private Man but as to the General Tenet of their Church in the matter of it In the Terms the word Catholick is to be distinguished for if they mean thereby such an one as they account a Catholick viz. one subject to the Church of Rome upon its own Authority It is very true that None is such a Catholick but he that shall render his belief to them in all things upon this their Proposal and so whatsoever is the Material Object of their faith yet the Formal Object is the Definition of the Church of Rome But if there be a true Sense upon ancient Account also of a Catholick who doth not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church then there may be in a true sense a Catholick now who doth not make the Church the last Resolutive of faith For where the Scripture was acknowledged the Rule of Faith and Manners also there the Authority of the Church was not the Determinative thereof And that it was will be made good if it be desired by several Testimonies But secondly give it suppose it that None is a Catholick in a right sense but he that believeth what the Church believeth because the Church believeth it yet the Romane will not gain his purpose thereby unless we would grant this Supposition also That the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church which indeed is meant in the Paper though wisely not expressed But this supposition that the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church is not to be yielded neither in regard of Comprehension for that makes a contradiction nor in regard of Dominion neither for other Churches have not submitted themselves to their Authority this needs no disproof from us till it hath a proof from them And thirdly If we should stand up to all that their Church in particular doth propose and if we should assent to it upon their Account we might be damned not for our want of faith but for Excess of faith in the Object Material and for the Error of faith in the Formal Object For we should believe more then is true if we should believe whatsoever they believe and somewhat also destructive of Articles in the Apostles Creed And we should also believe upon the wrong Inductive which is not the Authority of their Church as we may see now in the Answer to the Reason The Reason hath in it somewhat true somewhat false True that faith is to believe a thing because God revealeth it False that there is no Infallible way without a Miracle of his Revelation coming to us but by their Church which they suppose to be the Church its Proposition For if the question be This how shall we come to know whether the Church of Rome be the right Church upon the Authority whereof we must ground our faith Wherein shall we terminate our belief hereof In the Authority of the Church of Rome or not We are to believe that they say which God hath revealed but the Cause of our belief must be because the Church proposeth it So then we must believe the Church of Rome upon her own testimony and we must resolve all into this that the Church of Rome is the right Church although it be neither a Revelation nor a natural Principle such as this that The Whole is greater then the Part which indeed gave the Occasion of that Check which was given to Rome Greater is the Authority of the world then of a City Orbis quam Urbis S. Jerom. in Ep. ad Evagrium Wherefore if the faith of a Catholick must consist in submitting his understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it as is said in the Conclusion yet it is not necessary that this Church should be the Church of Rome For this in proportion would be to resolve our Perswasions into the Judgment of particular Men because a Particular Church which according to the Paper makes no Catholick faith but an Opinion or humane belief REPLY IN the Paper received the Position which I gave It is not sufficient c. is disliked because it makes the Catholick Church the Ground of our belief but in truth I find no reason given for such dislike or any thing said against it but what to me seems very strange and is this If there be a true sense upon ancient account also of a Catholick who doth not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church c. To which I answer that I would fain know what Catholick upon ancient Account did not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church or indeed how can I account him a Catholick without a palpable Contradiction that doth not believe the Catholick Church S. Iren. l. 3. c. 4. saith We ought not to seek among others the truth which we may easily take and receive from the Church seeing that the Apostles have most fully laid up in her as into a rich Treasure-house or place where the Depositum of the Church is kept all things which are of truth that every man that will may take out of her the drink of life For this is the Entrance of life but all the rest are Thieves and Robbers for which cause they are verily to be avoyded But those things which are of the Church are with great diligence to be loved and the tradition of truth is to be received And the said Iren. l. 1. c. 3. telleth us that the Church keepeth with most sincere diligence the Apostles faith and that which they preached S. Cypr. Ep. ad Cornel. avoucheth that the Church alwayes holdeth that which she first knew See also his Ep. 69. ad Florentium And S. Aug. had so great an Estimation of the Church that he sticked not to say cont Ep. Manich. quam vocant Fundamentum c. 5. I would not believe the Gospel except the Authority of the Church did move me thereunto Moreover disputing against Cresconius concerning the baptism of Hereticks l. 1. cont Cresc he useth this discourse Although of this that the baptisme of Hereticks is true baptism there be no certain Example brought forth out of the Canonical Scriptures yet also in this we keep the truth of the said Scriptures when as we do that which now hath pleased the whole Church which the Authority of the Scriptures themselves doth commend That
and not private Spirit which I can esteem no better then a fantastical if not a fanatical Opinion and is Diametrically opposite to the words of the second of St. Peter 1.20 No prophecy of Scripture is made by private interpretation And all this spoken here and in the Position c. of the Church is meant of such a Church as does truely deserve the name of Catholick and so it will appear that all the discourse in this paper I received of the Roman Church considered as a Particular Church or any other Particular Church is but Impertinent and Extravagant Now also I must assure the Answerer that the Pontificians do not make the Church of Rome the formal Object of their Faith as he doth impose upon them for they acknowledge that to be the Revelation of God or the authority of God revealing which causes their Belief to the Supernatural and Divine and not onely Natural and Humane as is the Belief that there is such a City as Rome or that there is a William the Conquerour c. which kind of faith is All that Hereticks have and All such as do not ground their Belief upon the Authority of the Church I cannot also but observe in the received paper that it is improperly enough called Excess of faith as it is there opposed to want of faith to believe more then Necessary for the Number of things believed does not alter the Nature of faith it self And lastly I must tax him of false alledging the words in the Reason thus there is no infallible way without a Miracle of his Gods Revelation coming to us but by their Church whereas in the Paper delivered it is the Church abstracting from all Particular Churches and meaning the true Church which soever it is And this is done but to make way for that needless Excursion which there follows THE REJOYNDER SIR THere is no great reason for me to rejoyn First because you wave the Application of your Discourse as to the Roman Church which is not ordinary for those of your Profession when they speak highly of the Catholique Church Secondly Because I may let you alone to answer the first paper with your second as to the main of it Thirdly Because the greatest part of it hath one fault not to conclude contradictorily Yet in Christian respects to Truth and You I shall endeavour meekly some return to your Reply and to differ as little as may be from you I shall mostly follow your own Order In the beginning you dislike my dislike of the ground of Faith without giving you any Reason Answer I intended my answer as near as I could guesse to the design of your paper for the Roman Church by Obedience to the Bishop whereof Bellarmine in his Catechism Englished p. 65. 6 7. doth describe the Catholique Church You will excuse me then if I took the course to make my answer compendiously sufficient to that drift if you will hold with Papists herein And if you would confesse you meant the Roman Church by the Catholique then I have given you such a Reason against your Position as you will say nothing to And you may consider that you directed your paper as to a Protestant who is not contradistinguished to a Catholique but to a Papist if you be a Papist why doe you dissemble it to me If you be not why do we dispute And this Apology may be enough also to refute all your Objections against me of impertinencies and excursions and untrue Allegations if you will take notice also of my Parenthesis And now my Reason intimated in a promise shall be made good in performance And since you will in the question about the Catholique Church abstract from the Roman and all other particulars I shall give some account of Catholiques who did not make the authority of the Catholique Church the ground and cause of their Beleef whereby onely God his Revelation cometh to us infallibly as you expresse your self in your first paper but this Prerogative they ascribed to the Holy Scripture to be it wherein and whereby we are infallibly assured of Gods Will as to what we should beleeve and do in order to salvation That the authority of the Catholique Church is of use towards Faith we deny not but the cause and ground of Faith and that whereby we are infallibly ascertaind of the mind of God is not the Proposition of the Church but the Word of God And such being the state of the question betwixt us I shall for your shower of authorities you say you could power out against me give you or shew you a cloud of witnesses as the Apostle speaks Hebr. 12.1 against you Your shower could not wet me through but this cloud may direct you home This Doctrine of the Church of England concerning the Church and Scriptures as you may see by the 8.19 20 21. Articles and therefore it is not my Opinion will appear not to be new but agreeable to ancient Catholiques in your own esteem The first shall be Saint Irenaeus Have you appealed to Saint Irenaeus unto Saint Irenaeus shall you goe He in his third book first chapter first words thus We have not known the disposing of our salvation by any other then those by whom the Gospel came to us which then indeed they preached afterwards delivered it to us in the Scriptures by the Will of God to be the foundation and pillar of our Faith So he Now that which is delivered in Scripture by the Will of God to be the foundation and pillar of Faith is the ground and cause of our Faith And such is the Gospel according to this Testimony The next for us is Clemens Alexandrinus in the seventh of his Stromata towards the end in the 757. p. of the Greek and Latine Edition He which is to be believed by himself reasonably is worthy to be believed by the Lords Scripture and Voice working by the Lord inwardly to the benefit of men So he Then according to him the Holy Scripture is not worthy to be beleeved by men but men are worthy of beleef by it And therefore that must ground our Faith because it is it whereby we beleeve others And therefore he saith in the following words Surely we use it as the Criterium for finding out of things And therefore points are to be decided and determined by authority of it which is his chief discourse against Heretiques even to the end of that book And if you please to peruse and consider it you shall find there that in his judgement the Catholique Church which he also there commends doth not conserve it self in that denomination by its own authority but by the Rule of Scripture Now that which rules the whole rules the parts the Scripture rules the whole then us So Origen upon Saint Matthew Hom. 25. We ought not therefore for confirmation of Doctrine to swear our own apprehensions and to bring into witnesse those which every one of us doth
Church as visible whose proposals we must receive and submit our understanding unto For the Invisible Church or Church as Invisible cannot order us in our Belief because as such it is not known to us I come now to your Testimonies And your first witnesse is Saint Irenaeus Answ We yeild all to Saint Irenaus nothing to you We say we ought not to seek amongst others the truth which we may easily take and receive from the Church c. Yes because the Church is serviceable to the truth by way of Ministery to deliver the Word of Truth to keep the Word of Truth to uphold the Word of Truth And so we acknowledge the Church to be a sufficient Treasury of Truth because we have therein the Scriptures But the Treasury doth not make the Money true nor currant for it is possible that there may be false Money in the Treasury Therefore we must not take it to be lawfull because it cometh out from thence and so the Scripture is not made true to us or the sense of it evidently credible to us because it is in the Church But we must look whose Image and Superscription the Doctrine hath and whether it be right coyn or not and it may seem to be of the right stamp and yet not Therefore saith Origen in his 34. Hom. upon Matth. All Money 1. Every word that hath the Royal stamp of God and the Image of his Word upon it is lawful Therefore we must bring it to the Word for trial We confesse we may take out of her the drink of Life yes but as out of a cistern such water as cometh from the Fountain the Scripture and we drink out of the Scripture the Water of Life as Tertullian in his Prescriptions We deny not this to be the entrance of Life because we have here the means of grace administred And all without the Church we say are thieves and robbers and they ought to be avoyded Yes All without the bosome of the Catholick Church which would break her Peace and rob her Treasury are as thieves and robbers and ought to be avoyded We grant that those things which are of the Church as being true from Scripture in points of faith or not repugnant to Scripture in things of Discipline are with great diligence to be loved And we allow it that the tradition of Truth is to be received Yes thus the tradition of Scripture the word of Truth or the Truth delivered in writing for so Tradition not seldome signifieth Or tradition of Truth which is according to Scripture as the Apostles Creed Not that whatsoever is delivered should be Truth as you would have it but whatsoever Truth is delivered should be received This is all that place as seemeth to me will afford Your second Testimony from the same Father may it self answer the Objection of the former and may confirm my answer Onely let me adde that he speaketh of the Church then purer then now If you will have more said to this you may find it in Saint Cyprians authority which you produce next The Church Catholick alwayes holdeth not maketh that which she first knew Where in Scripture Where else And where the Church holds that which it thus knew we hold with it and are beholden to the Church for holding it forth to us The Church may inform us of it but it doth not certifie it to us therefore doth not infallibly conveigh it the Truth to us therefore is not the ground of Faith The Office of the Church is as a Candlestick to hold the Light of the Word of Truth And moreover though is did alwayes hold that which it knew might it not also hold somewhat which she did not know Though it did hold that which was true might it not hold that which was false in other things As the Church of Rome holds many things which are true wherein we differ not and also many things false wherein she exceeds the Catholick Faith as in regard of Object Now put case therefore that that ancient Church near the Apostles times did not hold any point false but did hold Every point true yet even from hence nothing will be inferred sufficiently to your purpose unlesse you can prove that it was appointed by God to be the ground of Faith by an impossibility of errour in any particular Such is to be the ground of our Faith which is wanting in the Church not privatively as if it had been ever promised but Negatively because not promised to the Church after the Apostles times If it were possible that the Church might not erre yet this would not make us rest our Faith in it Faith hath no sure footing in such contingencies of Truth unlesse you prove a non-possibility of erring you doe nothing But we come now to the signal testimony of this kind that of Saint Austin I would not beleeve the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did move me To which I answer First if the testimonies of the other Fathers be defective in clearnesse or fulnesse as to this matter the testimony of one single Father though excellent will not amount to the Verdict of the whole Church and you have no Fathers yet for you for any thing I see Secondly Take this passage by it self and it seems to speak high but consider it with the tenour of his discourse in the whole chapter and it is like you will begin to think that it comes out from him in some heat of spirit to overcome his adversary Thirdly you will be pleased to give me leave to use a Criticisme which admitted according to the reasonablenesse of it will somewhat change the property of this suffrage It appeareth by compare of places in African writers that as is observed their manner was to expresse the tense more then past by the imperfect and also that he in other places must so be understood And if so here then it must refer to him as when he was a Manichee he was moved then as such by the authority of the Church to the embracing of the Gospel And so we grant that the authority of the Church doth move to beleeve the Scriptures But this cometh not to the case in hand which is intended for particular points of faith whether we should ground our faith of them in the Scripture and not in the proposal of the Church Neither is this an universal way as is pretended of coming to the beleef of the Scriptures by the commendation of the Church for some have been added to the Church immediately from the word as in the second of the Acts at the preaching of Saint Peter as is noted And yet fourthly mark the terms It is not said I would not believe the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did cause me but unlesse the authority of the Church did move me And thus this Testimony doth very well agree with our Opinion The authority of the Church might move him although he did ground his
finde in my heart not to say a word to them that you might see I do not give them that respect as to the Fathers And yet take the strength of all their authorities together and make of them an accumulative argument as we may speak yet they do not conclude your cause Calvin and his Schollar in their sayings affirm no more then that which we acknowledge not from them that the Church shall by the assistance of the Spirit be sufficiently furnished with necessary Doctrine unto Salvation but those of the Church invisible may be saved though the Church visible be not Infallible and by consequence not the ground of Faith As for Doctor Saravia's passage I answer it doth not come up close to your purpose The H. G. which beareth rule in the Church objectively is the true Interpreter of Scripture and thus it is not for you And if you understand the Church objectively yet first the matter he seems to speak to is of Discipline about Government of the Church depending upon Primitive Example but we are upon points of Faith Secondly He cannot be contrary to himselfe when he acts as he did formerly in the time of the Apostles but whether he doth so act now is a question yea no question Thirdly If you will with him and from him draw the Government of the Church to be proportionably Episcopal with all my heart I reject them that reject it And your Adversaries of Wittenberg confesse nothing for you The rule they speak of namely Prophetical and Apostolical preaching c. it is the Word of God written according to which she is bound to interpret those places which are obscure and to judge of Doctrines according to the rule which she hath received so as her Interpretations are to be agreeable to the analogy of Faith and her judgements of Doctrines to be made according to the Law of the Word namely harder places are to be expounded by those which are more plain and Controversies to be decided by that rule And all this makes nothing for you For thus the Scripture is the Rule ruling and the Church is but the Rule ruled And thus we follow the Church as the Church followes the rule as Saint Paul saith Be ye followers of me as I am of Christ in the first Epistle to the Corinthians c. 11. v. 1. Or if those Lutherans mean by a certain rule any rule distinguished from Scripture it is to be understood of some general heads of Christian Doctrine in proportion whereunto doubtfull places and Doctrines were to be judged But those heads were to be gathered out of Scripture And so all is resolved towards belief in Scripture but I think no man can see how they should say such a rule which was not Scripture was confirmed by miracles So for them And for Doctor Field if you will go through the twentieth chapter of the fourth Book you shall finde nothing in him contrary to this Doctrine For he saith plainly that though the Canonical Books are received by way of Tradition yet the Scriptures have not their authority from the approbation of the Church but they win credit of themselves and yeild satisfaction to all men of their Divine Truth whence we judge that the Church which receiveth them is led by the Spirit of God Observe not because the Church is led by the Spirit of God therefore doth he say she receiveth them but because she receiveth them therefore we judge she is led by the Spirit of God And as for his Rule of Faith descending by Tradition from the Apostles what is he like to mean but the Apostles Creed which he saith there was delivered in the Church as a Rule of her Faith But even this binds not by authority of the Church or upon Vertue of Tradition but by proportion to Scripture where it is found in particulars of matter though not in form of a Creed We confesse also that we should search out the true Church as the same Doctour saith We confesse that the Catholick Church is the Houshold of Faith the Spouse of Christ the Church of the Living God and that we should embrace her Communion and rest in her judgement Yes but how Not ultimately not absolutely not in what so ever she saith because shee saith it but in what so ever shee saith from the Lord. For although she doth goe by an infallible Rule yet are we not sure she goeth by it infallibly Therefore though wee rest in her judgements as to Peace yet can wee not rest in her judgements as to Truth because our understandings are not free to assent to what man will as being bound to assent to that onely which is grounded in the Word of God in matters of Faith And now might I Vie with you in number of Pontificians against you See Durand in his Prologue upon the Sentences where he hath more to our purpose then is necessary to be Transcribed Read him your self Gerson also in his Sermon concerning Errours against Faith and Manners about the Precept Thou shalt not kill saith thus More freely more purely more truely more speedily is Truth found out and Errour reproved if the Divine Law alone be constituted as Judge according to the consideration of Aristotle He which makes the Law the Judge makes God but he that addes Man addes a Beast Panormitanus also upon the 5. of the Decret concerning almes in chap. qualiter quando The saying of any Saint established with the Authorities of the New or Old Testament is preferred before a Papal Constitution even in decision of Causes Also Ferus upon the 1 Epistle of Saint John 2. chapter in the 52.3 page of the Antuerpe Edition thus The Holy Ghost doth teach t is by the means of the Holy Scripture and Word Again The Holy Scripture is given to us as a certain sure Rule of Christian Doctrine And again in the same page For if having the Holy Scripture as a most certain Rule of Christian Doctrine set before our Eyes we notwithstanding teach things so unlike what would be done if the Scriptures were taken away And if you say now that there is added to those places Tradition in the Roman Edition after the Trent Council as is noted You will get nothing by that but shame to the Pontificians And now I think I am not much behind hand with you in Testimonies about the Question But then afterwards you presse harder upon me So you say but I do not yet feel the weight of any thing you say I beleeve the Creed and that the Church is Holy And I do not beleeve but know that from hence nothing is coming to your cause The Catholick Church makes not it self the ground of Faith but is grounded in it as before And how were the first Members of the Catholick Church made Christians but by the Word of God And from the Holynesse of it doth not follow infallibility by the Roman distinction which saith that the Pope may erre
also confesse yet I also say that this Church of Christ must be confessed to be Infallible But withall I would have every one know that the Roman Church doth oblige to no more then to believe that the Pope defining with a lawful General Councel cannot erre for it is no necessary Article of Faith to believe that the Pope or head of the Church cannot erre when he defineth without a General Councel Now that this definition of a whole General Councel is Infallible ought not to seem strange to any Christian for who can think it strange that Christ for the secure direction of the first Christians whom the Apostles converted should give this Infallibility to all and every one of the Apostles and that he should regard so little the secure direction of all other Christians who were to be from the Apostles time to the end of the world that for their sakes for the secure direction of their Souls he would not give this Infallibility so much as to one Man no not to all the Prelats of Christianity assembled together with their head to define matters most necessary and in which all error would be most pernicious who I say could think this strange especially being this gift of Infallibility is given not for their private sakes to whom it is given but for the universal good and necessary direction concord and perpetual unity of the whole Church You must acknowledge that he gave Infallibility of Doctrine to all those who did write any small part of the Old or New Scripture He gave it to David though he was an Adulterer he gave it to Solomon who proved not only a most vicious Man in Life but who for his own person in point of Faith came to fall into Worshipping of Idols This you will not have thought strange but you will hold it Incredible that he should give this Infallibility not to one Man but the whole Church represented in a General Councel Let us passe on further yet and see how firmly this Infallibility is grounded I have above shewed how strongly it is grounded on those words of God promising a Holy way a way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it See here the third Number In the eight Number I have shewed that we cannot ground that Faith by which we believe the Sabbath to be changed to the Sunday upon Scripture but we must ground it upon the Tradition of the Church which if it be not Infallible we have no Infallible Ground at all for this point And in the ninth Number I have shewed the self-same to be about eating Blood or Chickens or any thing that is strangled In the 11 12 and 13. Number I have demonstrated that by the Scripture we cannot know which is true Scripture which is false which Books be Infallibly the Word of God which not for the Scripture hath not one Text in which it telleth us this and therefore for this Important point of Faith we can finde no other sure Ground then the Tradition of an Infallible Church for a fallible Tradition may deceive us In the 14. Number I have shewed that when Controversies arise as most and most Important Controversies do arise about the true meaning of the Scripture even after we have conferred all places together and looked upon the Original Languages the the Controversies still remain undecided and no Infallible way can be found to decide them by Scripture There is therefore no Infallible way to decide them if the decision and definition of the whole Church in a General Councel be not Infallible This is so clear that to the wonder of the world Luther himself in his Book of the Power of the Pope writeth thus We are not certain of any private Man that he hath the Revelation of the Father The Church alone it is of which it is not lawful to doubt So he In the 15. Number I have shewed that there be many points necessarily to be believed under pain of damnation which points are not at all set down in any clear Scripture For these points it is manifest that we can have no other ground then the Authority of the Church If this be not Infallible then we have onely fallible ground which cannot be a ground of Faith In the 16. Number I have confirmed the same Doctrine by the Authority of Saint Austin and Saint Chrysostome In the 17. Number I have proved this Doctrine clearly out of Gods Promise that he would build this his Church upon a Rock and that the Gates of Hell should not prevail against it which the Gates of Hell might easily do if the Church could come to teach damnable errors carrying her and her Children into the Gates of Hell it self The same in the same place I have proved by Gods commanding us to Tell the Church and commanding us to hold all those who will not hear the Church as Publicans and Heathens and by making good in Heaven the Sentence of the Church given upon Earth which he would not do if the Church should have at any time failed in her definition and that in points damnably erroneous In the 18. Number I have alledged other Texts still proving the same In the 19. Number I have shewed that for two Thousand years together before the Scriptures were written the true believers had no other sure ground of their Faith but the Authority of the Church which if it had been fallible the very ground of their Faith had been groundlesse and none at all The first Believers also and many whole Nations had no other ground then the said Authority of the Church as there I have shewed out of Saint Irenaeus and it is clear of it self for they did not build their Faith on any Scriptures Thus far I have gone already in the proof of the Infallibility of the Church Now I go on with those words of Saint Paul 1 Tim. 3. v. 15. where the Church of the living God is called The Pillar and Ground of Truth May not Men rely securely upon the Pillar of Truth May they not ground themselves assuredly on the ground of Truth No ground being surer ground and more infallible then the ground of Truth it self Yea my Adversary having found a place in St. Irenaeus calling the Scripture the Foundation and Pillar of Faith doth infer that if it be so then it is the ground and cause of our faith If this consequence be strong which I deny not then is it yet a stronger that the Truth is no where surer grounded then upon the Pillar and Foundation of Truth But my Adversary would take this place of St. Paul from me because he saith This expression may very reasonably be referred not to the Church but to the mystery of Godlyness and so be an Hebrew form c. Surely he forgot that this Epistle was not written in Hebrew but in Greek and then again No Hebrew form in the world can make the sense he intends What can be
Why so Mark if his ground be not as I told you Because saith he I have believed the Gospel it selfe upon the preaching of the Catholiques Can he more clearly ground upon the Infallible Authority of their teaching then upon this to believe the Gospel it selfe He goeth on thus Again If you hold to the Gospel my hold shall still be on the Authority of that Church upon whose Authority I believed the Gospel I saith he will hold my self to those by whose teaching I have believed the Gospel and these commanding me I will not believe thee And Saint Austin goeth so far upon this Ground as a Ground Infallible that he saith If perhaps you Manichaeans can find me any clear place in the Gospel to prove that Apostleship of Manichaeus that then indeed they shall weaken the Authority of the Catholiques But what do you think will follow I pray note it well Their Authority being weakned and shewed once fallible now neither can I so much as believe the Gospel And why so Because upon the Authority of these Catholiques I had believed the Gospel The ground of his belief in the Gospel was their Infallible authority as not onely these but also the next words shew manifestly Wherefore saith he if in the Gospel there be found nothing that is evident to prove the Apostleship of Manichaeus then I will believe the Catholiques rather then You. But if You shall read me out of the Gospel something that is evident to prove Manichaeus an Apostle then I will neither believe the Catholiques nor thee Why so I will not believe the Catholiques because they whose Doctrine I thought Infallible have lyed to me concerning your Manichaeans But I will not believe thee even when thou citest clear Scripture for of this case he speaketh and why so Because thou dost cite me that â—cripture to which Scripture I had now believed upon their Authority who have lyed unto me Thus he Could he more clearly say that if once in one single Lye he should finde the Churches Authority to be fallible he should then have left unto him no Infallible Ground at all upon which he were to believe Scripture To deliver a Doctrine thus inculcated over and over again and thus still relying on this one Ground is far and very far from letting a word slip in heat of disputation And therefore to speak plainly my Adversary could not deal sincerely when he said If we considered the whole Chapter we should be of his minde for nothing can make us lesse of his minde then to consider the whole Chapter as I have faithfully done excepting one little parcel in the end which most strongly confirmes all I have said for it followeth but God forbid I should not believe the Gospel having so Infallible Authority for it as the Church is yet believing this Gospel I do not see how I can believe thee teaching me Manichaeus to be an Apostle for we know which Apostle it was who was chosen in the place of Judas the Traytor This we have read in the Acts of the Apostles And because the Manichaeans did not believe the Acts of the Apostles he addeth which Book of the Acts I must necessarily believe if I believe the Gospel And why Because the Catholique Authority doth in like manner commend both these Scriptures to me See here again most evidently he saith the Ground upon which he believeth the Acts of the Apostles as well as he believed the other Scriptures to be the self-same Catholique Authority which in one and the same manner commendeth both Scriptures to us to be believed Had he said that he believed this or any other Scripture for the Light he received by the reading of it by which he discovered it to be Canonical then the Manichaeans might as easily have said that by the like Light we clearly discover the Gospel of Manichaeus to be Canonical Thus I have given a large and most faithful account of this Chapter setting most of it down word for word And this last place as also many other quite overthrow what my Adversary saith that he spoke here of himself as now a Manichaean for you see he speaketh of himself as one believing the Acts of the Apostles and believing it by a necessary consequence because he hath already believed the other Canonical Books upon the same Authority of the Church And if upon this Authority I may with St. Austin believe the whole Scripture to be Gods Word from the beginning to the ending though it containeth so many strange Stories such a world of several points why may I not upon the same Infallible Authority believe Prayers to Saints Prayer for the dead and other like points Neither can it be said that St. Austin as my Adversary saith was settled in the belief of the Scripture for the authority of Scripture it self for I have given you his plain words to the contrary saying that the Authority of the Church being weakned he cannot now so much as believe the Gospel which he might still do if he believed it for it self and not merely for the Infallible Authority of the Church yea l. de Utilit Cred. cap. 14. he saith that his belief in Christ was grounded upon that Authority which certainly he must then needs hold for Infallible If he did thus and was never noted for singularity in his faith for doing thus why may not I prudently doe what he did Yea how can I poor simple creature not doe imprudently if I refuse to do what he did who understood the Scriptures as well as any man the Church had Having now shewed the Church to be the Judge appointed by Christ for all Controversies and that the Definition of this Judge is Infallible and consequently a sufficient ground for Faith I will now show that all this Doctrine must be applyed to the Roman Church and cannot be applyed to the Protestant Church For first this Protestant Church doth not so much as lay claim either to have any such Authority as being Judge in all Points of Controversie or to the having any infallible Authority If either of these belonged to her she would know her own right from which she now disclaims and so by her own doctrine she cannot be Judge or infallible for so as an Infallible Iudge she should judge her self to be fallible No more need to be said to exclude her or any other Church acknowledging by evident and infallible Scripture as they profess their own fallibility and that they are not Iudges in Controversies being infallibly fallible and so uncapable of these Priviledges as is Evident And even this might serve to exclude all other Churches but the Roman She onely claimeth as she is bound to do her due right to be Judge in all Controversies and her infallible authority to decide them with truth All other Churches of all other Religions doe say indeed that they are themselves the onely true Churches but none of them say themselves to be either
Infallible Churches Authority to be the ground of Faith I proved the Authority of the Roman Church to be so See this fully answered Numb 27.28 Secondly You say you might still have left me to answer your first Paper with the second Paper I reply that this is onely to stand to what you have said as I also do Let the Reader judge with indifferency Thirdly You say I conclude not contradictorily I reply that I alwayes conclude the Churches Authority to be a sufficient ground of Faith you say it is an insufficient ground Reader judge whether these two be not Contradictions sufficient and insufficient Now to your Eight Answers in Order In your first Answer you spent seven pages to prove the Scripture to be a sufficient ground of Faith This This it is not to conclude contradictorily You should conclude that the Church cannot be a sufficient ground of Faith which still may be and is true though it also be most true that the Scripture is a most sufficient ground of Faith when it is once known by an infallible Authority to be Gods Word and also when we evidently know that such and such is the undoubted sense of the Scripture But I have proved at large that we cannot know upon infallible Authority which books be or be not Gods Word but by the Authority of an infallible Church See Numb 11 12. And consequently if the Churches Authority be not a sufficient ground for Faith then we can have no Faith to believe which books be Gods Word which not See Numb 26. The Churches authority is hence proved to be a sufficient ground for Faith and to be our first ground for we must first upon the authority of the Church believe such and such Books to be Gods Word and then assured by this our belief that they be Gods Word we may ground our Faith upon the authority of that Word of God which in this sense I hold to be a most sufficient ground for all Faith extended to all points clearly contained in Scripture This and onely this all your Authorities prove Take for an Example your first Authority of St. Irenaeus out of which you neither do nor can infer any more then that the Scripture once believed to be Gods Word is to us a sufficient ground of Faith because in it self it is The Pillar and Foundation of Truth but by the Authority of Saint Paul which is a stronger Authority then that of Saint Irenaeus The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth Therefore her Authority is a sufficient ground of Faith even according to this your strong Argument This I shewed Numb 22. Yea Saint Irenaeus expresly teacheth that though there were no Scripture at all yet we should all be bound to believe what we now believe as I have shewed Numb the. 19. And yet then we should have no other Authority then that of the Church Again the Scriptures can then onely ground Faith when they contain the Matter about which we are bound to have Faith but very often they do not contain this Matter as I have shewed Numb 9.10.11 12. and chiefly Numb 15. and 16. These points not being contained in Scripture how can I believe them for the Scripture Lastly the Authority of Scripture onely can ground Faith in those points which are known undoubtedly to be delivered in such clear Texts as a man cannot prudently doubt of the sence but a number of things are to be believed which be not thus set down in Scripture as hath been shewed in the places cited See also Numb 14. In other Cases I never deny the Scripture to be the ground of Faith but I say that as God spoke by the pens of those who writt Scripture so he speaketh by the Tongue of his Church in a General Council and therefore these his words are also to be believed as I fully shewed Numb 21.22 23 24 25 26. The Scripture in the Cases I here specified is a sufficient ground of Faith as your authorities well prove and so is the authority of the Church as I have fully proved in the places cited In your second Answer all you say is that the Church cannot ground our Faith but I have fully shewed the contrary in the places cited In your third Answer you come to answer the Testimonies I brought out of Holy Fathers and Scriptures and this taketh you up unto your 27. Page My Reply is that in this Paper I have made good Authorities and Testimonies sufficiently abundant to convince what I undertook and I have fully refuted the chief things you said against the chief places as may appear fully out of the Numb 17 19 22 23 24 25 26. where at large I have shewed your lesse sincere proceeding about the prime authority of S. Austin whose authority in the precedent Number I shewed not to be single In the fourth Answer you say you take not Canonical Books to be Canonical for the authority of the Church I Reply that if you do not take them to be so on this authority yet the holy Fathers did as I have shewed Numb 12.25 26. And if you believe them to be Canonical onely upon the Light given in them to you to see this verity your ground is far more fallible then the authority of a General Council as I have demonstrated Numb 13. In the fifth Answer you endevour to shew that you ground not your Faith on your own private judgement of discretion but I have shewed fully the contrary Nu. 3 4 7. In the sixt Answer you rejoyce to see me confesse the Scripture to be the Rule of Faith and Manners as if I had at any time denyed this Neither doth this Confession destroy my Position that the Church is the Ground of our Belief Can I not ground my Faith upon what St. Peter saith because I can ground it upon that which Saint Paul saith Why is the Scripture the Rule of Faith Because it delivereth to me Gods Written Word But the Church delivereth to me Gods Word written and unwritten I may therefore also rule my self by that The most right Rule of Scripture is often so crookedly applyed that he is blind who seeth not that we need to have better security of Interpretation then our own private discretion of Judgement can afford as I have fully proved Num. 4.14 Of the Infallibility of the Church in Interpreting I have fully proved our Doctrine Numb 21 22 23 24 25 26. In the seventh Answer you taxe me with being loath to own the Roman Church Why I did not speak of the Roman Church I told you here in the beginning it was because you would conclude as there you do The Catholique Church is not the Ground of Faith therefore the Roman is not I have fully shewed the contrary and proved the Catholique Church to be the ground of our Faith and out of superabundance I have shewed this Church to be the Roman Church See Numb 27 28. In the eighth Answer
you charge me in differing from my selfe because before I taught the ground of Believing to be the Authority of the Church and now I say it is the Authority of God Revealing My Reply is exceeding easie The Ground of our Faith is God Revealing and God Revealing by his Church as he first causeth our first Belief when he tells us by his Church such and such Books are Infallibly his Word God Revealing is alwaies the formal object of Faith but sometimes God Revealeth his minde by Scriptures and sometimes by the Church as he did for two Thousand yeares and more before the Scriptures were written The Prophets before they did write did say This saith the Lord to wit this he said by their Mouths So say I This and this saith our Lord by the Mouth of his Church as I have shewed Numb 22. Saint Athanasius to speak and I have shewed Numb 28. The General Councel of Chalcedon to have said Peter hath spoken by the mouth of Leo Pope of Rome And thus Gods Revelation cometh to us by the Church She and onely She teacheth us these and these Scriptures to be Gods Word We must first believe her before we can come to have Infallible Ground to believe Scriptures as I have fully shewed After we have believed Scripture we cannot by Scripture onely know the undoubted sense of many necessary places in Scripture as hath been shewed Again all things necessary to be believed be not set down in Scripture as hath also been shewed fully The Revelation of God coming to us in all these cases by the Church you by your own words in this place must grant her Authority to be our ordinary cause of Faith At the end of these your Answers you would fain seem to have spoken properly in accusing us of Excesse of Faith But your distinction doth no way salve the Impropriety of the Speech for there is still a difference in more believing Objects and believing more Objects but granting that it may be improperly spoken yet even in that Sense it is not truly said because there can be no Excesse of Faith in believing what God saith for believing upon an Infallible Authority all that we believe we cannot believe more then we should if we believe no more things then be grounded upon that Infallible Authority as we do not And consequently we do no more then believe such things as have for their Warrant This faith the Lord. Having now answered your Paper from the beginning to the end I am most willing to take your own close out of Saint Austin Against Reason no sober Man will go against Scriptures no Christian against the Church no Peace-maker adding his other words Tr. 32. in Joan. Let us believe my Brethren so much as a Man loveth the Church just so much he hath of the Holy Ghost SIR I Cannot answer it to God nor to his Church with us if I let you seem to your self or to others of your perswasion that you have the Victory untill you have overcome your Error therefore you will excuse me if I still follow you To your Preface then If the Roman Catholiques have often foretold that by permitting freely to all sorts of people the reading of the Scriptures in their Mother-tongue multitudes of new Sects and Heresies would not fail to grow up in numberlesse number and as for the peoples Manners they would grow worse and worse as you say in the beginning then are your Roman Catholiques in this false Prophets because they seem by you to make that the cause of Heresies and bad Manners This is plainly fallacia non causa or the fallacy of accident And secondly it is contrary to that of our Saviour Christ Saint Mark the 12.24 Do you not therefore erre not knowing the Scriptures and the power of God By our Saviour the knowledge of the Scriptures is not the cause of erring but the not knowing of the Scriptures is the cause of erring You do therefore erre not knowing the Scriptures which are able to make us wise unto Salvation as Saint Paul to Timothy 2 Tim. 3.15 And thirdly You confesse in this Paper that when we are by the Church assured that the Scripture is the Word of God we may Ground our Faith in it for those things which are plainly delivered And fourthly How cometh it to passe then that some of those in whom Infallibility as you think is vested have been Hereticks and lewd the former of which indeed you do much deny but is exemplified in Liberius's subscribing against Athanasius as you may see fully proved by our Reinolds against your Hart. And surely was that also an action of bad Manners Therefore if your Church were the true Church yet doth it not you see teach the way of Salvation infallibly and therefore can we not by it infallibly discerne the true Religion from the false Indeed the Catholick Church hath taught the infallible way of Salvation but that was the Scripture as I proved by many Testimonies and this was a teaching the infallible way by consequence because it did teach the Scripture which is the infallible way yet hath it not in particular points taught the infallible way infallibly Neither are we by the Church infallibly resolved that the Scripture is the Word of God although the authority of the true Church be a motive herein yet is it not that wherein ultimately we ground our Faith of the Scriptures as I have shewed Whereas then you say that we cannot have as things stand any other assurance to ground our Faith upon securely namely then the Church you do still but fortiter supponere for we cannot ground our assurance securely upon the Church And secondly Whereas you say that as things stand we have no other assurance c. you do not well consider what you say or I do not understand what you mean for hereby you do intimate that the Church is not the ground of our Faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but that which is indeed the ground of our Faith must be so absolutely and universally as farre as is necessary the Church security is but the best of the kinde amongst those which are humane but we must have a Divine indefectible ground for our Divine Faith in which there cannot be falsity Neither thirdly Is the Church the first ground because by it we believe the Scripture to be the Word of God because if we did by it believe the Scripture then we are not first to believe it by the Scripture And if whatsoever credence we do give to it we do give by authority of the Scripture then are we first to believe the Scripture and then that is the first ground Fourthly In that you say you did never deny that when we are by the Infallible authority of the Church assured of the Scripture to be the Word of God we may believe such things as are clearly contained in Scripture c. you say that which concludes against the practice of
the Church not to permit the use of Scripture unto the People and also you do abate of the Universal Proposition in the first Paper that Divine Faith in all things is caused by the proposal of the Church and therefore if you would hold you to this the Controversie would be lessened betwixt us for dato non concesso that we are bound to believe the Scripture to be the Word of God by the authority of the Church yet when we do thus believe it then the immediate ground of our Faith in those things clearly set down is the written Word of God and not the authority of the Church So then your first Number is indeed in no Number for you cannot mean thus that we cannot believe any thing proposed plainly in Scripture unlesse we believe the authority of the Church in that particular And therefore when you have proved the authority of the Church to be that which causeth and determineth our Faith of Scripture to be the Word of God you will say lesse then formerly and untill you do prove it you say nothing As touching the expressions you make in the second Number of him who answered the Papers give him leave if not to be the adversary herein yet to differ from you and to think himself to be one of the most slender Sons of the Church of England Neither did you intend by courteous and respective words to draw him to your opinion Soft words alone will not do it but soft words with hard arguments may do more When we see a clear demonstration of truth it is no courtesie to yeild assent for the Understanding cannot refuse Truth when it doth shew it selfe But whether the Reply as you speak be as clear a demonstration as any wise man can hope for in this matter let me have the liberty and the civility if in these businesses it hath any place not to determine Only it is very hard to say who doth optimum quod sic as they speak the best of the kinde Yet also wise men may think that if there can be nothing more expected towards ths defence of your first position the cause is wanting to it And certainly such a wise man and ingenuous as you be will not content himselfe with any ascertainment but that which is absolute and uncapable of Error Therefore not to deceive you by your own commendations put it to issue bring it to the test try the debate betwixt us by this rule of Wisdome and Conscience also Tene quod certum est relinque quod incertum It is certain that the Scripture is Infallible and you confesse it it is not certain that the Church is Infallible and I deny it Which then should you take to be the Rule and Ground and Cause of Faith As for the good designe you mention here and in your Title to guide Souls redeemed by Christ to the happy Eternity I congratulate to you that desire but I am sorry that such a zeal is better then the way you lead them in Assuredly those Souls redeemed by the Blood of Christ may and shall come to happinesse without any Infallible Judge of Controversies on Earth For first those things which are necessary to Salvation are plain in Scripture matters of question we are in no such danger by the ignorance of reserving a purpose not to contradict what we shall be convinced in on either part Secondly We may be directed in these points by Judges though not Infallible as unto the quiet of the Church Thirdly Untill your Infallible Judge appears to be truly such it is the best way not to be bound intuitively to his dictates for then we might be in possibility of being bound to believe an errour which is repugnant to the understanding Ex natura rei So that until you make good the Title of an infallible Judge whom as you say we are obliged under pain of damnation not to disbelieve I shall hold up my hand onely in admiration of your confidence And whilest you do demonstrate this that we are bound under pain of damnation not to disbelieve this Judge of yours You say you do demonstrate your former Position that the infallible Authority of the Catholique Church is the ground of our Faith So you yes because you say that the Catholique Church is the infallible Judge To this thus Is it the infallible Judge whereunto we are bound to submit our understandings in all things or not if in all things then we cannot believe what the Scripture saith in plain points without the proposal of the Church which now seems contrary to your mind if not in all things but onely whether the Scripture be the Word of God or in cases of Controversie then do you now go lesse then in your former paper against the nature of implicite Faith Secondly that the authority of the Church is not it upon which we resolvedly rest our Faith of the Scripture or the determination of Controversies we shall see when you come to it Thirdly what do you mean by the Church do you understand it formally of the people or representatively in an Assembly of the Pastors if you mean it of the people also how is infallibility vested in them Are we bound to stand to their judgement and they are to be in obedience to their Pastors Well then it must be understood of their Pastors What of all or most or one If of all when did they all Vote if of most when did most Vote If of one ordinary Pastor with or in a General Council then remember whensoever in your sense you name a Church it be so taken of the Pope and his Council General which yet you will not evince to be infallible by their authority If they were infallible they must be infallible by the Word of God as to us and then that again is the first ground of Faith and also secondly you will find that many priviledges which you have spoken of as to the Church do not belong to the Church Representative strictly but to all the people of the Church as invisible which as such comes not into this Controversie If then you come again in any discourse keep you within and to the bounds of the question and speak of the authority of the Church in the same sense as to be the ground of Faith Divine in all points or in the same particulars For if you proceed from the Churches being the ground of faith as towards the Scripture to be the Word of God To conclude that therefore it is the ground of faith indefinitely or universally you commit the fallacy à dicto secundum quid as also if you proceed from its being the ground of Faith in points of Controversie to the being the ground of Faith in all things the discourse hath the same fault And yet you say that in your progresse you leave nothing of concernment in my reply unanswered and also that you conclude contradictorily to me Sir Let me here
and besides that which is beside it as a Rule is against it For if any thing be a Rule besides it then is that not a Rule For a Rule or Canon as it excludes defect so doth it exclude excess and therefore in necessaries to faith and salvation nothing is to be added as in the 22. of the Apocalypse the 18. If any man shall adde hereunto God shall adde unto him the Plagues that are written in this Book After the consignation of the Canon nothing is to be added as he said And your glorious asserting which follows in your Treatise that you onely do truly believe the Scripture because you onely believe it to be the Word of God upon Divine Revelation manifested by Gods Church which as you will shew is infallible is certainly not very sound Because first this is not yet put out of question that the Church is infallible This you would beg and have to be granted unto you therefore you passe the proof of it here and skip from this to the denial of true faith to the Protestants For this Demonstration we must wait your leisure Secondly we deny unto you any reason of this your glory in the belief of Scripture upon this consideration that the Faith of Protestants is more grounded then yours is for whatsoever authority the Church hath towards this perswasion we also make use of as a motive to this Faith and then we do resolve and settle and determine our Faith hereof by the autopistie of the word of God which you say is the infallible Word of God If it be infallible it cannot deceive us Neither can be it be said that we cannot be assured of its infallibility by its self because we cannot be assured of the Authority of the Church but by the Word of God Yea this is the ratio formalis of Divine Faith to believe what he saith to be true because he saith it Therefore must we believe that the Scripture is the Word of God because he saith it And suppose the Church were Infallible yet must we ground and terminate our Faith hereof in Scripture unlesse it did otherwise appear Infallibly to be so or else we are in everlasting motion to and fro as Why do I believe the Scripture to be the VVord of God because the Church saith it VVhy do I believe the Church because the Scripture beareth witnesse of it How do I know the Scripture saith it because again the Church saith so You must then come to us and our principles if you will have any grounded constitution of Divine Faith we fluctuate and hover up and down like the Dove untill we come to set a sure foot on the ground of Scripture The prime and indemonstrable principle of all Divinity amongst principles complexe must be this that the Scripture is the VVord of God And hereupon that which you say in your eighth page That it is no where written in Scripture that such and such Books of Scripture be Canonical and the undoubted VVord of God c. makes no prejudice against us and yet that which is quoted in Scripture from any other book under such a name is upon this consideration Canonical for they are worthy to be believed for themselves As we assent unto prime principles in the habit of intelligence by their own light so do we assent unto Scripture to be the VVord of God through the help of the Spirit of God do we see the Scripture to be the VVord of God as by its own light Therefore hath Faith more proportion to Intelligence then to Science since we see no reason to believe but by the credibility of the object which hath upon it impressed the Authority of God And this in effect even Aristotle did see in his Rhetoricks when he speaks of that which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is either by Humane Testimony or by Divine in the latter whereof that which makes the Faith is the Testimony of God And that testimony of Saint Austin which your Bellarmin produceth against those who were for private Revelations beside Scripture in his first Book De verbo Dei cap. 2. and he takes it out of the 12 of his De Civit. cap. 9. infers as much in these words Scripturae fides mirabilem autoritatem non immeritò habet c. The Faith of the Scripture hath not undeservedly an admirable Authority in the Christian VVorld and in all Nations which amongst other things that it spoke it did by a true Divinity foretell would believe it It hath an admirable Authority not undeservedly mark that not from the Christian world but in the Christian world and in all Nations which it did foretell would believe it not the Church for they that were the Church were to believe it first it did foretell by a true Divinity if then we would use a scientifical argument and intrinsecal from the Scripture it should be this that what it hath foretold is come certainly to passe and what is come to passe in the belief of it it did foretell The humane Faith then such as that whereby we believe Cicero's or Virgils books is indeed yours for you are they who have no other then humane grounds and consequently an humane Faith if your Faith doth rest upon the authority of Man VVhat you have more to say to this out of the virtue of General Councils you refer me to in the 19 Number but all the light they give comes from the Sanctuary of Scripture and therefore what Light you have must be more then Mans. In the middle of your eighth page you say you have a second convincing Argument it is easily denyed to be a second convincing Argument for it cannot be a second convincing Argument untill the first proves so But the summe of this Argument is drawn from our uncertainty of the knowledge of the Scripture to be the VVord of God by our translations since the Scriptures were written in Ebrew and Greek which one of ten thousand doth not perfectly understand But do you not consider that this Argument will rebound with more force against you for you have nothing at all for your belief but the Authority of the Church in your Translation Latin Yea the people must have no knowledge at all by any Translation which they understand therefore their Faith upon this account is lesse Divine because they have no understanding of Scripture by any Interpretation Secondly The Translations are the VVord of God not absolutely but so far as they agree with the Originals and therefore by them we do not ground our Faith as such but we ground our Faith upon that which is translated to be the VVord of God because God by his Spirit perswadeth us of it therefore the Fallibility of Translation doth not destroy our Faith for we do not build it upon a Translation but this you do you rely upon your Latin Translation Session the 4. as Bel. in the 30. B. De verbo Dei c. 9.
which by the Trent Councel was Christened Authentique before it was born You make that to be the Scripture by which you must decide Controversies then you decide Controversies by Scripture And hath that no faults in it Is it every word Infallibly done If Infallibly done at first why did Clement the eighth vary from Sixtus quintus and why doth Isidor Clarius vary from him in thousands of places And do you any where find in Scripture that this Interpretation is made Canonical And are there none that find great fault with this Latin one If you will look into your Bellarmine in his third Book De verbo Dei 10. Chapter you may finde the contrary and although it goes under the account of an antient Edition and Hieronis yet in the Chapter before you may see he findes adversary objections and you may find by his confession that all is not his VVhat need then Sixtus Quintus have made it up And is not your Rhemish Testament very faultie Will you undertake to make it all good against Fulk And if you say that you may be certain of your Latin by the Church which you will prove to be infallible until you do prove it you doe again commit the fallacie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This should have been made irrefragably sure at first by Achillean invincible arguments and then we should have fallen down before you But again you tell us you will do it and presently fly at us for our Opinion Is there not one of yours who is prettily in his Opposition against Bishop Andrewes about the Popes temporal power compared to the pulex Qui cessim fugit fugit recessìm Et subsultibus hinc hinc citatis Vibrat cruscula And is there no more do so In some lines following of your Treatise we have nothing but petitions or repetitions and we answer no more till you prove more then this no man ever erred by following Scripture sincerely which you grant to be the infallible Word of God If they erred they erred from Scripture not by it But fools may be made wise by Scripture and wise men may erre by your Church until you make it infallible Nullibi pronior fidei lapsus quam ubi rei falsae gravis autor extitit as he said If they may teach that which is false wise men may also be deceived if they be not infallible they may teach that which is false But in the eighth line of the ninth page you oppose to me Saint Austins authoritie and of all the greatest Doctors which ever the Church had that they professed themselves unable to understand the Scriptures and that after many years study and how then c. We easily answer Saint Austin doth not say that the Scripture is absolutely and universally in all places so difficult that we may not get out from thence that which will direct us to Heaven for then he should contradict himself Doth he not say in his 4 th chapter of the 2. Book Dê Doct. Christ That there are some things indeed difficult but the obscurity is profitable to tame our pride by labour and to bring back our understanding from loathing cui facile investigata plerumque vilescum as he saith And fully again in in his 10 th Tome De verbis Apostoli Serm. the 13 th Verbi Dei altitudo c. The sublimitie of the Word of God doth exercise our study doth not deny to be understood If all were shut up there would be nothing whereby that which is obscure would be revealed Again if all were covered there would not be from whence the soul should receive nourishment and might have strength to knock at that which is shut Therefore your fallacie is à dicto secundum quid if from hence you would conclude all to be difficult yea so you would contradict Saint Peter who saith of Saint Pauls Epistles that somethings of them are hard to be understood not all Exceptio in non exceptis firmat regulam as the Rule is Yea you would contradict your self who say more then once that those things which are plain in Scripture you believe by the authority of Scripture But if from the asserting of some things difficult you would onely conclude that this cannot be the judge in Controversies as you seem to intend in your conclusion we say plainly this difficulty in some things of Scripture doth not inferre the necessity of an infallible Judge on earth your premisses do not conclude this and we allow unto you the use of Judges on earth although they be not infallible As Judges in civil Causes may and do sometimes erre yet is there use of them so also is there of Ecclesiastical Judges though not incapable of errour and again there is no peril of damnation on either side soberly held in points of Question and therefore the Scripture yet may be the way so direct that fools cannot erre in matters of necessary faith and practice And fourthly a General Council is the highest you can goe in humane Authoritie and yet this doth not binde unto Faith because it is not free from errour To which purpose believe Saint Austin if you will stand to his judgement in his third book against Maximinus Bish of the Arrians the fourteenth chapter Sed nunc nac ego Nicenum c. But now neither ought I produce the Nicene Council nor you that of Ariminum as boasting thereof neither am I held under the authority of this nor you of the other Let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason be debated by Authorities of Scriptures not proper witnesses to any but common to both So he Where you see he prefers the authorities of Scripture before Councils which are proved not infallible even here because one was for the Arrians Here is Council against Council as there hath been Pope against Pope In this case what will you do which must you submit to Is one infallible contrary to another infallible If you must submit to both you submit to errour if to one why not to the other if that be infallible And this also will include uncertainty of all humane definitions about the Canon of Scripture which hath been spoken to before We come now to your second Reason in your eighth Number That you say comes into this Enthymene Many Controversies there are and may be yet very many more most neerly concerning the necessary means to salvation which can never be ended and undoubtedly decided by judgement and sentence of the Scriptures therefore the Scripture is not the Judge We answer to the Antecedent in those termes I deny it in both the branches if you mean by those things nearly concerning the necessary means to salvation such things as are indeed necessary to salvation otherwise you go upon a false supposition that there is a necessitie of a Judge on earth undoubtedly to decide that which is not necessarie Therefore chuse you which you will hold to if you mean those
the Pope to be head of the Universal Church and therefore are they not compared ad idem Thirdly Is it determined in Scripture whether the Pope be Head of the Church or not You say it is for if you say it is not you are all lost Well if it be determined by Scripture then consequently it is determined in Scripture that the King is not and so this your Controversie is one of those which is decided and concluded negatively in or by Scripture So this exception against us doth not thrive Another point of this kind you make in your eleventh Number about the Canon of Scripture your Argument seems to be thus that we should know the Canon is necessary we do not know it by Scripture therefore by the Church Is it not thus you cannot make your matter shorter without any detriment to you And therefore we answer first as at first which you give us the occasion to put you in mind of that if the Church were Infallible Judge of all Canonical books yet would it not follow from hence that it should be Infallible Judge in all points of Faith and Manners which you would fain have as very â—seful for you unlesse caâ—â—ally for we might suppose more assistance to the Church in this particular then in other cases since also when that is made sure that there are the books of Scripture we should look for no other directions for Life and Salvation but this Therefore if you argue that because it is Judge Infallible of Canonical books it is Judge of all matters you do not rightly proceed from a particular You are in that which is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and therefore you do not conclude in your first Universality Secondly We are not to be assured by Divine Faith that there are Canonical books from the authority of the Church and therefore is not the Church the Infallible Judge herein We must beleeve them to be Canonical by their own Authority otherwise we shall never believe them to be so so that you see we deny the Assumption and we say we may know the Canonical books by Scripture we have no other Divine Authority to know them by They bear witnesse of themselves they carry their own light which we may see them by as we see the Sun by its own light For let me put you to this Dilemma either the Scripture is to be believed for it self or the Church is to be believed for it self If the Scripture be to be believed for it self then have we our cause if the Church be to be believed for it self then must we know this by a Revelation beside Scripture which your Bellarmine disputes against in the beginning of his Controversies and whether that Revelation be not Anabaptistical and more uncertain then the word of God judge you And I pray is it not more fiâ— that the Scripture should be believed in its own cause then the Church but if you say that the Authority of the Church is evidenced by Scripture concerning it then that is to be believed for itself as towards the Church and why not then other parts of it Thirdly If the Church be the Judge Infallible of Canonical books how came Saint Hierome to be repugnant to the Church in the debate about Books Apocryphal as you know and may see by your Bellarmin in his second Book De verbo Dei cap. 9. amongst which Apocryphal books the Maccabees are numbred to be by him accounted such and therefore Saint Jerome did not in his Latin Edition translate them and then let S. Jerom's authority justifie Lâ—ther upon your principles for you account the Maccabees to be as well Canonical as you and we do the Apocalyps That the Scripture is silent of its own Canon and that we cannot prove a book to be infallibly Canonical by it self without begging the question hath litle of iudiciousness in it for how do we see light how do we prove first and indemonstrable principles how do we prove that which we apprehend by natural light after this manner is the understanding irradiated to see the authority of Scripture in it and by it well and how do we prove the Church to be infallible by it without begging the question therefore you must come about to Scripture And again if you prove the Church to be infallible Judge herein because the Scripture is not you beg the question who are to dispute not I who am to answer Your twelfth number goes upon a false supposition at least in part of it namely that we are bound to believe that the Gospel of Saint Matthew was written by him as also the Gospel of St. Mark to be written by St. Mark We deny it We are bound indeed to believe that the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Mark as we distinguish them are the word of God but we are not bound to believe that they were written by them It is no part or duty of my faith to believe the Penman of any part of Scripture save onely so far as it is declared in the body of Scripture for it is not Scripture because Saint Matthew wrote it but Saint Matthew wrote it as being inspired that it was the word of God in the matter of it If then your discourse goes upon the matter of it it was answered before if upon the title it is not allowed to be de fide or any point of faith that such was writer of any piece of Scripture And whereas you urge that some have denied this Gospel and some or other have denied other books to be Canonical how then shall we end this Controversie or others about the Canon by Scripture I answer And do not Hereticks deny your Church to be infallible will you therefore quit your opinion So then either this argument is not good against us or it is also good against you Secondly If Hereticks reject some books we may be disposed by the authority of the Catholick Church to our faith of them by their own authority And this seems to be as much as Saint Austin would have us to attribute to the Church in this particular as we have his advice in his second Book de Doctrinâ Christianâ cap. 8. where he says in Canonicis autem Scripturis Ecclesiarum Catholicarum quam-plurimum sequatur authoritatem In Canonical Scriptures let him very much follow the authority of the Catholick Churches amonst which surely these are they which merited if you will construe it so to have Apostolick seats and to receive Apostolick Epistles Observe that he saith let him follow the authoritie very much which doth not conclude that we should wholly rely upon it and of the Catholick Churches in the plural not one only Then there are more Catholick Churches in his judgement and such are they which merited to have Apostolick Seas and Epistles then your Church onely is not to be called the Apostolique Sea And whereas afterward in this Church he doth reckon Apocryphall Books yet is
here is one place where the Father useth the words not in the Roman sence which may be made use of to another pupose about your opinion of merit and also if you will not mean it here of deserving this makes some diminution of respect to the book and some advantage more I shall make of this chapter in its place Many lines in your fourteenth page you have afterwards wherein we have nothing but vaunts or repetitions I will not trouble you with the latter nor my self with the former But towards the end of that page you would order the matter so as to hold your own and yet to give Scripture its due respects And you seem to bring it to this determination that when there is an acknowledgement made that the Scriptures are in themselves the Word of God it doth not derogate from Scripture to hold that yet they are not known to us by an infallible ground that they are the Word of God but by the testimony of the Church which in shorter terms is expressed by others of your Church that the authoritie of the Scripture doth depend upon the Church But this will not serve the covering is too short For first this distinction is too narrow to extend to the difference betwixt us in particular points of faith Therefore if you will yield that points of Religion are to be examined and ended infallibly by Scripture when we know it to be the Word of God then we will onely stick to this Question But if you will still maintain the infallibilitie of the Church in all her definitions then your composition will not be sufficient although it could satisfie as to that particular But secondly It will not satisfie because you do not sufficiently provide for the honour of the Scriptures authoritie and therefore you derogate from Scripture in this although you did take away no honour from Scripture as in regard of its truth Do you lay it to heart that the many questions betwixt us is about the authoritie of the Scripture the formal Reason of credibilitie is the authoritie That which makes me to believe it to be the Truth of God as being his Word is the Authoritie For if the credibilitie doth rise from the truth of it in it self you destroy your own cause for that you confesse the Scripture to be the infallible Word of God then betwixt us simply about the Truth of the Scripture there is no contest And doe not you affirm that the authoritie of the Church is the Ground of Faith because you think that the Church by its authoritie is worthy to be believed since it is infallible But why then do you not grant this authority to the Scripture since you confess it to be infallible If the reason of believing the Church be the infallibility of it according to you why is not the infallibility of the Scripture the reason of believing it since it is confessed infallible And if you say you do believe it to be so by the authority of the Church then the formal reason of believing it is not the infallibility of the Scripture but of the Church and yet the infallibility of the Church shall be the formal reason of believing it But you say you must know the Scripture to be infallible that I cannot do but by the Church Well but do not you then see that you preferre the authority of the Church before the authority of Scripture for the Church with you is to be believed for it self for so it must be or else the Scripture must be believed for it self or else we shall have in Divinity no principium primo primum wherein to rest Now if the Scripture be to be believed for it self then we have ended the businesse If the Church be to be believed for it self then we prefer the Authority of the Church before the authority of Scripture then you derogate from the authority of Scripture Thirdly the Church hath authority or not It hath you say then of it self or not what will you say If of it self what hath a company of Christians more to say for themselves then others If you say the authority comes from succession others also have had a constant succession And it must come to one first society Well where had that society its authority of it self or not If of it self what by revelation beside Scripture or not If beside then the charge of Anabaptisticalness is fallen upon you What then From Scripture Well then the Scripture in regard of those Texts which concern the Church is to be believed for it self and then why not in others Fourthly The Word of God in the substance and matter of it was before the Church therefore because the Church was begotten by it and therefore it must be known before the Church Yea reconcile your Opinion with that of Bellarmine in his first Book De Verbo Dei cap. 20. The Rule of Catholique Faith must be certain and known for if it be not known then it will not be a Rule to us If it be not certain it cannot be a Rule If it be a known Rule against Anabaptists why not also a known Rule against Papists and therefore that it must be made manifest by the Church is not necessary for how was it made manifest to the first Church to be the rule As for the instance of yours that Christ was made manifest to many by the Testimony of the Baptist and of the Apostles before the Scriptures were written and yet this derogate not from Scripture We answer soon First It is yet to be proved whether the Church hath that inspiration as John Baptist and the Apostles had for the first planting of the Church until that be made good your Argumentation is not Secondly Although the New Testament was not written the Old was and Iohn the Baptist and the Apostles preached no other Doctrine then was contained in the Old So our Saviour If ye had believed Moses ye would have believed me for he wrote of me in the 5. of Saint Iohn the 46. verse Thirdly If Iohn the Baptist and the Apostles were believed by a Divine Faith without the authority of the Church as the first Disciples did why may not the Scriptures be believed by a Divine Faith without the authority of the Church If the Apostles were believed immediately without the Church in what they said why may they not be believed also in what they wrote And surely to goe a little more close and deep if we speak properly there is not so much a ground of Faith as a cause if with the Schoolmen we grant as we may that Faith is a supernatural habit infused by God which disposeth the understanding to assert that which is said by God is true because he saith it not because the Church saith it And if you say that the Scripture and the Church are not opposite true when the Church ruleth it self by Scripture But if the Question be which proposal is
first that of the Scripture or that of the Church here the Church is opposite to Scripture if it pretend to be first for both cannot be first Therefore the first Axiom in Divinity and consequently of Divine Faith must be that the Scripture is the Word of God and then this Scripture is substracted as the ground of all particulars to be necessaririly believed and therefore if we should have no other Faith of Scripture then by the credibility of the Church for ought is yet proved we should have no Divine Faith In your 14. Number you go about to prove that the Scripture is not the appointed Judge in all Controversies For many things you say are so set down in Scripture that almost all the Controversies which are in the Church doe arise about the true interpretation of the Scripture We Answer First here we see that you would have more to be the question then that Whether the Church be the judge of the Books Canonical and that the Scripture is the VVord of God Therefore we follow you and do say Secondly That it seems then the Question is onely who should be the infallible Judge to discusse and decide the debates which do arise about the sense of Scripture So then again those things which are plainly set down in Scripture as the many necessary things are are allowed to be believed without the voice of the Church and therefore all points of Faith you cannot it seems include within the compass of necessary submission to the Church therein Thirdly your discourse proceeds not effectually to your conclusion unlesse you can prove that the uncertainty of the sense of some passages in Scripture doth convince the necessity of an infallible Judge herein Secondly That we are infallibly certain thereof And Thirdly That the Church of Rome is it These particulars are yet depending and without their affirmation we may affirm that God hath well enough provided for the salvation of men in the Scripture which is more easie to be understood then the universal consent of all the Fathers whose Opinions also must be held true as they are agreeable to the Rule And also hath he provided wisely for us in that he hath not left us to the Lesbian Rule of humane authority and also hath provided for the peace of the Church in that he hath given us direction of the Pastours whom although we cannot absolutely believe yet doe not impudently oppose Yet you will say if Christ had intended this book for our sole Judge infallible you mean otherwise you doe not contradict me in all controversies he would undoubtedly in some part of this book have told us so clearly this importing so exceedingly as it doth and yet he hath not done so We answer Christ hath disertly declared his will to oblige us unto Scripture in that he bindeth us to search the Scriptures in that he saith ye erre not knowing the Scriptures as before In that he said by Saint Paul that all Scripture is given by Inspiration and is profitable c. and that it is able to make the man of God wise unto salvation as before And by Saint Peter 2. Ep. 1. cap. 19. we have a more sure word of Prophesie to which you do well giving heed as to a Light that shineth in a dark place untill the Day dawn and the Day-star arise in your hearts And as for Pastours of the Church again and again we say we deny them not a lawful use or to them a lawful respect in things of God but they doe but carry the Lantern in the dark So that by this Light of Scripture are we directed unto salvation Secondly We turn the mouth of your Argument against you if Christ had intended that the Church should have been the infallible Judge it importing so exceedingly he would have told us so clearly and infallibly which he hath not done He telleth us all Scripture is given by inspiration and this Proposition if we rightly believe we believe upon its own authority because it was given by inspiration but it is not as clearly said that the Church judgeth by inspiration And if it doth why doth it not determine all Controversies in the Church and therefore is it either wanting in ability or peccant in duty Or if there may be Controversies in your Church without definition of the Church why may not there be Controversies amongst us without actual decision of Scripture And now Sirs let me have leave to speak affectionately to you do you not see what dis-respects of Scripture if not Blasphemies your Opinion doth miserably betray you to if you follow it Would any sober man let fall such words as if God had intended the Scripture for our Judge such a book as the Scripture is So you VVhy which often times speaks so prophetically that most would think he speaks of the time present when he speaks of the time to come So you First how are these words put together so Prophetically that c. would it seem to be more Propheticall to speak under the formality of futurition but if it be Prophetical to speak of that which is to come as in verbis de praesens then what can you blame in that part of Scripture which is Prophetical Or do you think that it was not meet that in the Old Testament there should be somewhat Prophetical Or will you think that God made that part of Scripture on purpose obscure that there might be need of your Infallible Judge Secondly The Prophecies are not expressed in the Present Tense which in proper the Jewes have not but in the time past to signifie the certainty of their accomplishment and also because as with God they are already done since he looks upon all differences of time with one single act of intuition and as for those Prophecies which respect Christ they are so expressed that thereby may be signified that the merit of Christ did extend to some even before the times wherein those particular promises were made and therefore the manner of Prophetical expressions is upon good reason easily discerned if not by the people yet by the Ministers of the Church without an Infallible Judge And what then if it speaks of Christ under the Type of David when not onely the Letter signifies a thing but the thing another thing and one person represents another Is not this for the excellency of Scripture without such obscurity when we believe David was a Prophet and â—hose which spoke of him were Prophets and when we are in Scripture directed to such an use of Types And if any thing be spoken obscurely yet if it be a matter necessary there are other Texts more easie to compare it with and to expound it by as your Aquinas in his first Page 1. q. 9 10. Articles And therefore this exception is not able to argue the necessity of your Infallible Judge no more then diversity as you say of senses of Scripture wherein it is to be understood
Judge Is there no more likely-hood of a figurative sense in the words then there is of the being of an Accident without the Subject or of the Body of Christ to be in Heaven and on Earth and in thousands of places at once But you contend the improbability of this sense because he took the Bread and the Cup in his hand and said this is my Body and this is my Bloud Surely this makes no prejudice against us for this was necessary towards the consecrating of that Bread and that Wine otherwise there would have been a Consecration of Bread and VVine in Communi and therefore he spoke demonstratively and this demonstration makes the Subject no lesse capable of a figure then the Praedicate and what difference Behold the Lamb of God or this is the Lamb of God So in the 9. to the Hebrews and the 20. verse Moses having taken the Bloud of Calves and Goats said This is the Bloud of the Testament VVas that Bloud transubstantiated into the Bloud of Christ or when one takes his Testament may he not say this is my VVill although it be but the signe of his Will You take notice also of the different opinions there are about the sense of the words of Institution We have no cause to take it to our selves who have not such variety of conceits therein Neither can you I am sure justifie your Infallibility by your accord herein since some question whether it be transubstantiated and therefore have they a proviso of a conditionate adoration Adoro te si tu es Christus and so many amongst you differ about the manner of the change whether by production which supposeth as is noted the Body not to praeexiste and this is false or by adduction which supposeth against Transubstantiation or by a kinde of Conservative Conversion which is little else then a Contradiction in adjecto therefore answer your self How is it more clearly defined by the Church which was scarce in debate till the time of Berengarius Did the Church all that while want necessaries to Salvation But lastly you should not have pleaded Scripture for this point on your side if you will believe Scotus and your Cardinal Bellarmine who sayes that Scotus held Transubstantiation could not be clearly proved by any Text of Scripture and he himself thinks it not improbable Therefore herein you cannot in their judgement convince us by Scripture and therefore till the Church be Infallible it is no doctrine of Faith as it was not before the Lateran Council as Scotus affirmed by Bellarmins Confession in the 23. chapter of the third Book De Sacramento Eucharistia but if Transubstantiation be not declared in Scripture then our opinion negative to you is more secure and is not concluded not to be in Scripture though you or others will not professe it In the former part of your 15. Number you go over a former argument again to which the former answer may serve As for the other part of your Paragraph concerning all the points of Saint Athanasius's Creed which are not clearly delivered in Scripture and yet he that will be saved must think thus I answer Although the matter of them be not in terminis found in Scripture yet the sense of them according to aequivalence may as well as Transubstantiation when you will endevour to make it out by Scripture Secondly Although we believe what is said in his Creed yet therefore are we not bound to believe it by the Authority of the Church since he would have held it although the Church had not as he did sometimes differ from the common profession of the Church in the Consubstantiality of the Son of God In the beginning of the 16. Paragraph you say somewhat which you had said before to it we say nothing but you raise a new opposition Baptisme of Children to be necessary to their Salvation is a prime point of Belief and yet you cannot believe this prime point of Belief by any clear place of Scripture therefore you mean all necessary points are not clearly believed by Scripture therefore by the Church this must be your dissertation and your minor proposition you confirme by the Testimony of Saint Austin We Answer first to your Major by distinguishing a necessity of Baptisme in general it is necessary by necessity of precept but it is not necessary by necessity of mean to the child so as that if it be not baptized it is undoubtedly damned the former respects the Parents that they should take care of it for their children but if they do not or the child be taken away as many are before it can be done by a lawful Minister we cannot conclude it or them absolutely perished since it is not so necessary to them that were of age at the Primitive Institution Saint Mark the 16.16 Whosoever beleeveth and is Baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned not also and is not Baptized For many there were and cases might be put that there might be more which could not have Baptisme before they died as appears by your Vicarium Baptisma which the Fathers speaks of Then though we may well assure our selves that if Infants rightly Baptized die such they are certainly saved yet can we not as reasonably passe the Verdict of Damnation upon those which are not Baptized As to your assumption we also distinguish if you mean we cannot believe this Poedobaptisme by any clear place of Scripture namely in terminis terminantibus as they speak expresly we grant it but this is not enough for your purpose And if you mean it cannot be clearly believed because by consequence it cannot be proved or because it cannot be clearly beleeved since it is beleeved by consequence then we deny your assumption in both regards For whatsoever is necessarily inferred from Scripture is binding in the vertue of the principle and therefore clearly we may beleeve it Now the institution of Baptisme in general by Christ the substitution of it to circumcision since there is the same Covenant in substance to both Testaments is a sufficient Principle to infer the necessity of Baptisme of Infants besides what may be supposed by baptizing whole Families And therefore this is none of those things which are not grounded in Scripture and therefore no Object of the Church Tradition And therefore Saint Austins Testimony will come to no more then this that though they had nothing for certain alledged out of the Canonical Books in this point yet the truth of Scripture is kept when they do that which seemed good to the Catholique Church namely so far as the Catholique Church keepeth the Truth in clearing that which is not plain in Scripture Which Church the Scripture doth commend as he But is it cōmended for infallibility If not this Testimony and all your Testimonies and all your instances which you have of things not determined in Scripture but determined by the Church will doe you no good for you
Ut sic quatenus errer it is false All simple errour is not damnative to the person And therefore Christ may be with some who live in some errour indeed otherwise with whom is he For who is there that lives not in some errour though he knows it not If you mean then damnable errour distinctively I grant you all and yet you have nothing thereby for your cause For this doth not prove infallibility to your Church Security from damnable errour distinctively taken doth not infer absolute infallibility The former is promised as also in that of Saint John 14.16 which you would reinforce here but absolute infallibility is not intended And this you must have or else you are utterly lost For if the Church be not infallible in all that is proposed by it how shall I be assured of any particular thing which it proposeth If I be not assured of this particular how am I bound to believe it If I be not bound to beleeve it upon its proposal how is it the ground of Faith Divine If it be not the ground of Faith Divine then you are gone And besides those promises in Saint Matthew and Saint John you may know were made as to the Apostles equally and therefore to their successours equally and to the Church universal equally by consequent and therefore cannot you appropriate it to your Bishop and to your Church Saint Austins authority in a passage of his wherein you say he speaks admirably in this De utilitate credendi cap 6. you had better have omitted It strengthens your cause nothing if you quote it as you should First it is misquoted for the chapter for it is not in the 6. chapter but in the 16. Secondly you may see in the beginning of the chapter that the scope of it is to shew how authority may first move to Faith And Thirdly this scope may discover your corrupting of his Text for it is not as you give it a certain step but contrary an uncertain step velut gradu incerto innitentes as in the Froben Edition â—N M. D. lxix Whereby you may perceive how little reason we have to credit your infallibility And then Fourthly part of his authority in that chapter is by miracles of Christ which he did himself on earth The summe of your fourth Number is this to perswade not onely that the Churches authority is infallible if it judge conformably to Scripture for so even the Devil himself is infallible so long as he teacheth conformably to Scriptures but that the Church shall at no time teach any thing that in any damnable errour shall be against Scripture So that when we know this is her Doctrine we are sure that this is conformable to the Scriptures rightly understood And this you would prove by two Testimonies of Scripture We answer distinctly and First to that you say about the Devil First we are not commanded but forbidden to consult with the Devil but we are injoyned to consult with the Church of God Secondly we have cause alwayes to suspect the Devil because either he doth not give us all the Scripture unto a particular or doth pervert it or doth speak the truth with an intention of deceiving the more but we have more charity towards the Church we have none towards the Devill Thirdly Yet though we do not believe the Devil in point of truth upon his authority neverthelesse can we not believe the Church in whatsoever it sayes to be true upon its authority neither doth it follow that the Devil should hereupon be the pillar and ground of Truth when he said that which is conformable to Scripture as well as the Church because the Church doth hold and uphold Truth so doth not the Devil but when he useth it he doth it to destroy it and again we are moved to think that which is proposed by the Church to be true so are we not moved by the Devil to conceive it to be true upon his saying so And therefore if I do believe that which the Devil saith conformable to Scripture to be true and do not beleeve that every thing which is said by the Church to be conformable to Scripture I do not make the same account of what is said by one and by the other For that which is true I doe beleeve because it is seâ— though the Devil saith it I do beleeve it in respect to the matter without any respect to the Author and that which is not true according to Scripture I cannot beleeve though the Church saith it yet am I moved by the authority of the Church to consider the point more because it is proposed by them and what is by them proposed according to Scripture I am moved to beleeve of with respect of the Authour of the proposal but cannot be resolved in my Faith of but by the authority of Scripture And therefore I cannot beleeve that whatsoever is said by the Church is agreable to Scripture because the Church faith it for this proposition for ought as yet proved is not agreable to Scripture rightly understood And if you say that your Church must judge the sense let it first judge whether it doth not beg the principle Neither have your Texts alledged any thing for you Not that of Daniel the 2. chapter the 44. verse It respects indeed the Kingdome of Christ in general and therefore is not proper to any Church of his signaâ—ter for any thing can be shewed by the Text. Secondly The Kingdome of Christ principally respects the Church invisible which as such is not our guide Thirdly it may certainly come to its everlasting reign in Heaven notwithstanding some errour on earth by the Church visible Fourthly whereas you say it shall destroy all Idolatrous kingdomes you doe very well add in your Parenthesis Idolatrous Kingdomes to save your selves from suspition But it all Idolatrous Kingdomes then have you reason to make your infallibilitie more strongly infallible otherwise you will be included in this distraction So also that of Esay 59.21 profits you nothing some of the former answers may serve it principally is intended for the Church invisible which by the Church visible may sufficiently be directed through the means of grace to salvation infallibly without infallibility of the Church As the Word of God was certain before it was written and the Church then was by it directed because it was then in substance of it though not written as we have said before but you compell us to repeat so by the Word written infallibly though not infallibly expounded and applied by the Pastours of the Church shall the Church be brought to Life For if every evil action doth not destroy the state of salvation as you will confesse then surely every simple errour cannot because it is not voluntary And this is fully able to answer your Appendix to this Number at the end of your paper Those Testimonies if they be rightly cited yet in those terms affirm no more then
is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You go on in your Paraphrastical discourse But because I am not one who have not yet believed the Gospel and so this answer cannot serve me notwithstanding I must tell you that I am such an one that I would not believe the Gospel without the authority of the Catholick Church did move me So you Out of which words of your own you may learn how to understand the sense and tense of the Father in the place But because I am not one who have not yet believed the Gospel then he had believed the Gospel before and was not to believe it now and therefore his words must be referred in the African idiotism unto the time more then imperfect otherwise what he had believed he was to believe now which cannot stand with your Infallibility And yet you say afterwards mark if his ground be not so as I told you because saith he I have believed the Gospel it self upon the preaching of the Catholiques therefore if his Adversary should say do not believe the Catholicks he doth not go consequently to force him by the Gospel to any Faith to Manichaeus And hereupon you break out in these words Can he more clearly ground upon the Infallible Authority of their Teaching then upon this to believe the Gospel it self Answ Again these words do not include a Divine Faith of the Infallibility of the Church which you must have or else your cause is starved Because those words I would not believe the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Catholick Church did move me which must be the principal ground do not include his Faith of the Infallibility of the Church He might be moved by the authority of the Church though not resolved in his Faith by the Infallibility pretended according to this proportion must all his discourse be understood which proceeds from his belief of the Gospel by them to his being perswaded by them to Manichaeism if any thing should be found in the Gospel towards it or else proceeds to his not believing of Manichaeus upon his belief of the Catholicks who bad him believe the Gospel and not Manichaus These must be the hinges upon which the whole disputation must turn and therefore if those words be not understood of an ultimate determination of his Faith by the authority of the Church but of an instrumental moving nothing will be concluded sufficient and sufficiently for you But this answer you give not me any return to Ponder it very well for its importance in this debate For if the whole chapter was soberly spoken and if that he did not speak of himself as when he was a Manichaeu yet if he here intends to signifie no more then onely the authority of the Church was an impulsive to the belief of the Gospel you will evince no more then what you need not contend for because we do not contend against it as being not the state of the question Therefore it remains for you to prove your supposition or your proofs of an Infallible authority of the Church which indeed you would put in in your conclusions but is wanting in the premises And if it did belong to me to dispute it were not difficult to shew the contrary And since they may come in upon account of the reason of my denial they shall be there two moments from the chapter First Because he saith he did believe the Gospel per illos not propter Now what we do properly believe any one in we must believe for him not by him for him as a cause not by him as an instrument and therefore we believe what God sayes to be true not by him but for him And if the Apostles as he sayes were not 〈◊〉 of their Faith 2 Cor. 1â— 14 then were not those Catholicks he speaks of such as he ought for themselves to believe Secondly Because in several places of the chapter he doth signifie that if any reason could be given or any thing whereby it might be manifestly known that his Adversary were in the right he would leave his Catholicks Now this is not spoken consistently to the nature of Faith upon Infallible authority for what we do believe in way of Faith we do so believe as there cannot be a falsity in it as Aquinas doth confesse and I suppose you too for you would conclude no falsity or error can be in any thing which the Church doth define because it is infallible and therefore all the Reason and all the Science in the world are not able to shake Faith whereunto the contrary is intimated in the Father Nay if there be no arguing to the principles of Faith from other principles but from the principles of Scripture there is arguing to Divine conclusions then assuredly Faith in principles of Theology as this is one the verity of the Gospel is not obnoxious to any decay by any reasons And it seems his Faith then in the Gospel was not Divine upon the consideration of their authority since Reason may be valid against Humane authority but not Divine so that had he meant he built his Faith of the Gospel upon the authority infallible of the Church there had been no place for Reason to have any power of assent on the behalf of the Manichees Again if you hold to the Gospel my hold shall still be to the authority of the Church upon whose authority I believed the Gospel I saith he will hold my self to those by whose teaching I have believed the Gospel and there commanding me I will not believe thee So you think that this is also available for you surely nothing lesse for besides that you omit much of his connexion that makes for my former argument and also that â—â—â—kes against your rash and blind believing besides that you may understand that here he doth not compare the authority of the Church with the autopisty of Scripture which is the 〈◊〉 of the controversie but he doth compare the authority of the Catholicks as towards the belief of the Gospel with the authority of the Manichees as to believe their false Gospel of Manichaeus Indeed the authority of the Church is more urged and is more usefull to prevail aboâ—â—e or against the authority of private opposites but wâ—â— that it hath the moment of credibility above or equally to the authority of Scripture it self is that which is an question and is not here determined for you But you go on And Saint Austin goeth on so far upon this ground as a ground Infallible What of Faith it is again denyed not onely simply but it is denyed to be held so by him in this discourse If you may have your suppositions we must needs soon have done Well go on That he saith if perhaps you Manichaâ—us can find me any clear place in the Gospel to prove the Apostleship of Manichaeus that then indeed they shall weaken the authority of the Catholicks So he â—aith And what can you make of this
for your use Take it by it selfe and it will come to this that a clear place in the Gospel would perswade him to lessen his opinion of the authority of the Catholicks then he would hold clear Scripture above or against the authority of the Church then their authority is not in his judgement Infallible or else Infallible authority of the Church may be opposite to Infallible authority of the Scripture and one in his opinion of them the Scripture is more Infallible then the other the Church which is incongruous for in Infallibility there is no degree no more then in Truth And if you say that the Scripture yet may be more Infallible to him this spoyls all your cause for you say you go to Faith by the Church because that way is more plain c manifestâ— Therefore you hasten me from this passage to shew me what will follow But what do you think will follow I pray note it well their authority being weakned and shewed once fallible now neither can I so much as believe the Gospel And why so because upon the authority of these Catholicks I had believed the Gospel So you But do you see how you interpose your glosse in your Parenthesis thus their authority being once weakned and shewed once fallible Do you imagine that we can neglect or overlook this your glossall inference or opposition and shewed once fallible as if there were no authority but that which is Infallible and there were no weakning of authority but to make it fallible Authority may stand with Fallibility for we grant Authority to the Church distinguishing it from Infallibility And if you had done so you had saved many a wound which your Church hath got by that unfortunate word Infallibility as one of your own men happily confessed Neither therefore doth it follow that the authority of the Catholicks being weakned and shewed once fallible he could not at all believe the Gospel because by the authority of the Catholicks he had believed the Gospel but he could not then believe the Gospel by that inductive and motive of the authority of the Church for the first Christians believed the Apostles severally without the authority of the Church Yea if upon that consideration he could not have believed the Gospel their authority by whom he did believe it being weakned yet doth it not from hence flow necessarily that when he did believe the Gospel he did believe it upon an Infallible authority because although he could not believe the Gospel without it yet might he account it as towards belief but a condition not a cause of his Faith And this you must have or else you do not contradict Whatsoever is necessary to an effect is not the cause of it although whatsoever is a cause thereof is necessary to it Therefore that is not so which again you say that the ground of his beleef in the Gospel was their infallible authoritie as not only these but also the next words shew manifestly When will you by your proof put the infallible proposal of the Church out of question when shall we have any more then supposals of it Let us see your next words Wherefore if in the Gospel there be nothing found that is evident to prove the Apostleship of Manichaeus then I will beleeve the Catholicks rather then you but if you shall read me out of the Gospel something that is evident to prove Manichaeus an Apostle then neither will I beleeve the Catholicks nor thee Why so I will not beleeve the Catholicks because they whose Doctrine I thought infallible have lyed to me concerning the Manichaeaus But I will not beleeve thee even when thou citest clear Scripture for of this case he speaketh and why so because thou dost cite me that Scripture to which Scripture I had now beleeved upon their authority who have lyed to me So you And what now from hence can you gather more then from the former passage of the same nature unlesse you did make good another Parenthetical supposition whose Doctrine I thought infallible This is not in Saint Austin but comes from your own private Spirit And therefore if you will not be ruled by our Spirit because of the former exception to the contrary surely we have no cause to be overperswaded by your judgement without any reason for it Secondly May you not from hence take notice that what I said of Saint â—ustin that in the Testimony here he might speak as in some heat of Dispute For can we think that Saint Austin had such a soul as to say soberly and categorically that he would not beleeve clear Scripture which was cited by any one because Catholicks had told him otherwise Did Saint Austin in your conceit differ in judgement from your Aquinas or did your Aquinas differ from Saint Austin Consider then what your Aquinas saith in his Summes the first Part the first question and the eight Art Innititur enim fides nostra revelationi Apostolis Prophetis facta qui Canonicos libros scripserunt for our Faith doth rely upon the revelation made to the Apostles and Prophets who wrote the Canonical Books but not upon the revelation if any other was made to other Doctours Nay he confirms it by Saint Austin out of his 19. Epist a little after the beginning Solis enim Scripturarum libris c. For I have learned to give this honour onely to the Books of Scripture which are called Canonical as to believe most firmly that none of the Authours thereof did erre in writing any thing but others I so read that whatsoever holynesse or learning they are excellent in I do not think true therefore because they thought so or wrot so Compare then this passage with the other or the other with this and then judge whether either he did not differ from himself in his Principles or did not speak the former as a disputant Thirdly Let me note whereas you do rightly translate Saint Austin as speaking of his beleef by the Catholicks in the tense more then past you give your self occasion to think that he meant the main passage non crederem not of himself then but as before a Manichee And your argument which you produce a little after against this last answer because he speaks here of beleeuing the Acts of the Apostles and beleeving it by a necessary consequence because he hath already beleeved the other Canonical books upon the same authority of the Church doth not overthrow my answer because you say your self that this book of the Acts he did beleeve by consequence by the authority of the Church he was at first moved to beleeve the other books and therefore by consequence he did beleeve the book of the Acts because the Catholick authority did in like manner commend both Scriptures The speaking here in the present doth not derogate from my answer because the beleeving by consequence supposeth an act of beleeving antecedent Also Fourthly note that here he said the
Catholick authority doth commend both which may be done without infallibility For the commendation doth not ingage the judgement in assent necessary but the authority may ingage the mind to have a good opinion thereof and so may move dispositively to Faith Fifthly Perpende it well that it is said by St. Austin that he was moved by the Catholick Church its authority and that the Catholick authority doth commend both not the Roman authority which now is included or to be included And therefore if you could prove that Saint Austin intended as much as you would have and also that his authority were sufficient to carry the cause for the Catholick Church Yet you can have from hence no more then your part comes to of a particular Catholick Church if indeed you were such And therefore have you upon your shoulders such a labour as all discerning Catholicks would detract or retract namely to make good that whatsoever is said of the Catholick Church in the respects of it should be singularly appropriated to the Roman But of this in your 27 number Whereas you seem to vaunt upon your paraphrase could he more clearly say that if once in one single lye he should find the Churches authority to be fallible he should then have left unto him no infallible ground at all upon which he were to beleeve Scripture So you First I deny your consequence this doth not follow from what you have urged that Saint Austin drives this discourse that if he should find them in a lye he could have no infallible ground to beleeve Scripture It follows well that he could not beleeve Scripture by their authority because they had led unto him But though they did not lie to him they might be fallible for they might purpose that which they thought to be true for errour and therefore for their not lying can we not infer their infallibility And for ought I see he doth not here any way give us to understand that he did think they could not lye to him and therefore he could not conceive them upon this impossibility to be infallible As for that which you think an Argument against me that he could not speak any thing in heat or by slip which he so much inculcates This is nothing effectual for how often do we with fervour endevor to maintain that which once hath by incogitance or passion gone from us Yea it may seem more likely because he doth so much inculcate it because we are so eager to cover our imperfections and especially when we are like to make good use of it against an adversary Secondly what doth he inculcate that which you would have But this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they say this is under question and therefore his inculcation is nothing to you if he speak it assertively until you fortifie your supposition But one Marginal note of yours more at the sign of the crosse I find and that is this Had he said that he beleeved this or any other Scripture for the Light he received by the reading of it by which he discovered it to be Canonical then the Manichaeans might as easily have said that by the like Light we clearly discover the Gospel of Manichaeus to be Canonical So you This is no way moving much lesse cogent For first it proceeds from a Negative which in the kind of it unless from Scripture which is the adaequate rule is of no validity Because he did not say so therefore he did not hold so No connexion Secondly by the same reason I may say he did not hold the authority of the Church to be infallible for then he would have told them so plainly he would have made an end of the dispute without any need of using Scripture Thirdly they were not prepared for this Theological Argument because they did not own the Church And now all things being duely considered I think you have no cause to say that I have not sincerely and fully answered what you have had to say for your self out of that supreme Testimonie of Saint Austin And if you compare that chapter with the chapter you mention in the same Number below namely the fifth against the Epistle of the Manichee with the 14. De util Cred. against the Manichees too you will not or cannot heartily dislike my Answers and therefore need I not distinctly to answer this last since here also he doth not compare the authoritie of the Church with the authoritie of the Scripture which is our main question but he compares with the authoritie of those few those turbulent those new men as he speaks who were not like to bring forth any thing which any without doubt might not think not worthy of authoritie the authoritie of the Church as to the beleeving of Christ where also he said that he was moved by the authoritie of the Catholicks Quorum autoritate commotus Christum aliquid utile praecepisse jam credidi Whereby you shall if you will see the reasonablenesse of the former criticism because here he said jam credidi so that it must refer to to him as a Manichee And therefore can you not with Saint Austin beleeve the whole Scripture to be the Word of God from the beginning to the ending as upon infallible authority of the Church because if he did yet cannot you do it which is not to be done and if it be to be done because he did it then it is not to be done because he did it not And I hope those strange stories and those several points which you speak to be in Scripture may be more like to be beleeved upon the authority of the Scripture then upon the authority of the Church since the Church hath no authority but from Scripture not as a Church And therefore if you have no other infallible ground for prayers to Saints and prayer for the dead in your sense and other like points then you have proved he went upon as towards the believing of Scripture you have none Nay you have not so good authority for those and such like points as he had for the belief of the Scripture for besides the difference of the matter he had Catholick authority for his belief though the authority was not Infallible but you have not Catholick authority for your points though fallible But I observe your wisdome You would justifie your points here by Infallibility which you think may be more likely then to justifie your Infallibility by your points of difference Therefore your conditional postulate might have been spared untill the condition be proved If Saint Austin had done so as you suppose then you or your Church would have been more excused from singularity because you had followed him As for you you need not fear singularity You provide against that in your opinion or your Masters for you for you must follow the Church without examination of what they say Their word must be taken but yet your Church may be accused
if one be sufficient why the other if both be necessarie then either is not sufficient So then if the Scripture be the most sufficient ground of Faith when it be known to be the Word of God and the sense of it then I have contradicted you and you have contradicted your self For I say as you say that it is most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith And two sufficients there are not in the same kind Yes you say but first the Scripture must be known by infallible authoritie to be the Word of God Well but we both beleeve that the Scripture is the Word of God and by infallible authoritie we do beleive the Scripture to be the Word of God because we do believe it by the authoritie of it self which you say is infallible And if you believe it by infallible authoritie of the Church as you think you must go to Scripture for this authoritie then is not the Church a sufficient ground because it needs the Scripture to prove the Church and confirm its authoritie And therefore my concluding was contradictorie since your supposition of two sufficient grounds is false Well and how shall we know evidentlie whether this is the sense of Scripture By the authoritie of the Church you say And why then do they not by their authoritie evidentlie deliver unto us the sense of Scripture in everie difficultie If it cannot it is insufficient if it will not it is uncharitable and besides you fall into the same danger again For where hath it this authoritie by the Scripture then the Scripture is the sufficient ground again and this not And when the Church in a Council doth decide a controversie best it doth so by principles of Scripture applying them to particular cases and the determinations of the Church have themselves to the Scripture but as conclusions and the Scripture hath it self to those conclusions as the principle And therefore properlie the principles are believed and the conclusions are credible not by themselves but by participation from the Principles So that as the prime Principles are the ground of all Science so are the Principles of Scripture the ground of all Faith And the first Principle in Theologie must be this that the Scripture is the Word of God and so the ground of Faith And if the Church be not subordinate it is opposite to Scripture as the first Principle and so stands by it self and must fall to the ground And if you say it is not necessarie to umpire all doubts then you say as we say and why then an infallible Judge And forasmuch as we doe believe the Scripture to be the Word of God why do you contend because we do not believe it as you believe it but if you intend your Treatise in charitie you might have spared your labour For we are in a surer condition then you can be upon your Principles You believe the Scripture by the authoritie of the Church and we believe it by that by which the Church hath its authoritie So that the Scripture is not onely the first ground in regard of Order but also of Causalitie because the Church hath no ground but by Scripture Therefore we like your intention better then your judgement Neither do we denie the moment of the authoritie of the Catholick Church towards Faith so that we have all the authoritie of Heaven and Earth for our belief And if there were a doubt and in us a possibilitie of errour by apprehension that we cannot be assured of the Scripture to be the Word of God by the Church yet our errour would not be so dangerous because we should erre in honour of Scripture as yours is or would be who erre in honour of the Church Also must I observe your ingenuitie again here that you do profess it as most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith when we know by infallible authoritie that it is the Word of God and that such and such is the sense thereof If there be degrees of Truth and sufficiencie then are we more secure if degrees of Truth and sufficiencie to us then are we yet more right And also this doth deduct from your universalitie of faith in your first paper by the proposal of the Church in all things For my second third and fourth and fifth answer the Paragraphs of your Discourse or Treatise have in them nothing whith hath any potential contrarietie to them which I have not fully as I think taken away In your Application you make to or against my sixth answer you seem to take another argument to perswade me that the Scripture and the Church may both be grounds of Faith It is by way of interrogation Can I not say you ground my Faith upon what Saint Peter saith because I can ground it upon that which Saint Paul saith We answer your question is out of question but your consequence from thence is unsolid and unjudicious because they were both inspired in their Doctrine but it is yet again in question whether the Church be infalliblie inspired and we can be infalliblie assured thereof the reason being not the same your reasoning sinks Yet you insist further Why is the Scripture the rule of Faith Because it delivereth to me Gods written VVord but the Church delivereth to me Gods VVord written and unwritten I may therefore rule my self by that So you I answer This argument hath no strength to weaken that which I laid down before that there are not two sufficicient grounds of Faith because the Church is but a Ministerial rule and subordinate to Scripture and so subordinately a rule as to that VVord of God which is written and therefore can it not ground or order my Faith by its own Vertue but onely by proportion to Scripture and so is not a rule equal to Scripture intensively And if you conceive your argument should have any force because the Church doth exceed the Scripture extensively in that it delivereth the VVord written and unwritten Surely you are much mistaken by your supposition that there is a VVord of God not written in points of Faith equally credible to that which is written It is to be proved not supposed Your reasoning rather hath force against your self The Church is not a rule infallible because it delivereth to us a VVord of God not written for herein it mainly erres The Scripture is not onely a necessarie rule but also sufficient most sufficient And therefore they bring in tradition by way of supplement you say it is a sufficient rule in that you say it is a sufficicient ground of Faith therefore must you expunge tradition This rule of Scripture you say is often so crookedly applied that we had need of better securitie of interpretation then our own judgement of discretion So you First this is accidental to the rule and therefore it doth not infringe its prerogative Secondly by this Argument if you drive it to
the not being a rule upon this account the traditions and the testimonies of the Fathers cannot be a rule because they have been abused Thirdly We do not intend the use of the judgement of discretion to rest in that upon an interpretation nor do we oppose it to the authoritie of the Church but we say this must be satisfied in Articles and matters of Faith notwithstanding the decisions of the Church by consonance thereof to Scripture otherwise it cannot give the assent of Divine Faith Every one must be perswaded in his own mind although he doth not make his own sense This private judgement should neither be blind nor heady it respects authoritie but joyneth only with appearance of the Word of God That which you say to the seventh answer was examined before That which you say to the eighth answer will not serve to save you from differing from your self which indeed if it were in way of retractation would not be reprehensible as Saint Austin speaks in the Preface of his Retractations Neque enim nisi imprudens c. for neither will any but an unwise man reprehend me because I reprehend my errours But if you have a mind to see the difference betwixt you and you you may thus Before you said that the ground of believing is the authoritie of the Church since you have said in your second paper that it is the authoritie of God revealing If there be no difference why do you not keep your terms as a Disputant should do But you say your reply is exceeding easie the ground of our faith is God revealing and God revealing by his Church as he first causeth our first belief when he tells us by his Church such and such books are infallibly his word So you Now then if you make the authoritie of God revealing to be the ground and cause of faith then it is not the authoritie of the Church because although God doth reveal by his Church yet is not the authoritie of the Church the ground of faith but Gods authoritie for the Church is but as a Messenger or Ambassadour which we do not believe for himself but for his Letters of Credence from his Master and so is it the authoritie of Gods revealing which is the ground of faith And this is made out by that you say to compound your variance You say the ground of our faith is God revealing and Gods revealing by his Church as he first causeth our first belief when he tells us by his Church such and such books are infallibly his word then the authoritie is his whereby we believe and not the authoritie of the Church which is but Miniâ—terial And by your own argument are you undone for if the Church be the ground of faith and not the Scripture because by the Church we believe such and such books to be Canonical as you have said before and also here below in this Reply to my eight Answer then also the Authoritie of the Church is not the ground of faith because we must first believe Gods authoritie revealing it to his Church before we believe the Church But also to take notice of that Argument of yours here it is false For we must first believe the authoritie of Scripture before we can believe any authoritie of the Church For the Church as such hath all from Scripture as I have shewed And therefore by your own argument are you undone again for if that be the ground of faith which is first then the Scripture not the Church and therefore the Church may be disputed not the Scripture which we do understand by way of Intelligence through a supernatural light and cannot demonstrate as we may the Church by principles of Scripture Again you seem to differ from your self because now you hold that the Church is the ground of our faith in all particulars causally because by it we believe the Scripture but before the faith of a Catholick which you mean generally must consist in submitting his understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it so your first paper in terminis terminantibus But now when we believe the Scripture by the Church we may believe that which is plain in it by it self because it saith it not because the Church saith it Do not you now somewhat yield not to me but to truth Truth will be too hard for any one that hath not committed the sin against the Holy Ghost and yet also will it be too hard for him though he denies it Consider then what you have said and what you think and judge how the Masters of your Church will answer it at Gods Tribunal for that everlasting cheating of simple souls with the mysterie of implicite faith And that also which you so much repeat that we must receive Canonical books by the Infallible authoritie of the Church is not yet grown beyond the height of a postulate It hath been often denied you upon necessitie and it did not obtain it seems universally in the practice of the Church or else some of your Apocriphal books were not accounted Canonical for Cyrill of Jerusalem in his fourth Catechese where he speaks in part of the Scriptures he accounts not in the number the Maccabees you spoke of nor some others Yea for the reception of books Canonical Saint Jerome gives another reason of embracing but four Gospels in his Preface upon the Comment upon Saint Matthew not because the Church owned no more as you would have Saint Austin to be understood but he doth prove that there are but four by compare of that of Ezekiel with that of the Apocalypse about the foure beasts which doe represent as he interprets their meaning the four Evangelists You go on and say God revealing is alwayes the formall Object of faith Before every thing was to be believed as proposed by the Church because she proposeth it so that the formal Object of things to be believed was as proposed by the Church under that consideration But sometimes God revealeth his mind by Scripture sometimes by the Church as he did two thousand years and more before the Scriptures were written So you Well then now he reveales himself by Scripture contradistinctly to the Church as well as by the Church contradistinctly to Scripture which you put in one behalf of your unwritten word So then we may believe him immediately by Scripture but whether we can believe him immediately by tradition without Scripture wants conviction Neither doe you exhibit a reason of this Opinion by that which follows that for two thousand years and upwards before the Scriptures were written he revealed himself by the Church This as before is not enough to sustain traditional Doctrine because the Scripture in the substance of it was before it was written but you cannot evince that the word not written is as certain to us as the word before it was written was unto them And the Reason may be taken from
contradict that Thirdly you say I confesse that when we are by the Church assured that the Scripture is the Word of God we may ground our faith in it for those things which are plainly delivered Yes but I also say that all things necessary to salvation are not plainly delivered in Scripture And Saint Peter saith That many to their perdition did misunderstand some hard places of Saint Paul So that misinterpretation of hard places may be the cause of perdition Fourthly you object Heresie and lewd life to some in whom you say we invested infallibity If I should grant all what prove you from hence but that there be other wayes to Heresie and bad life besides giving all scope to interpret the Scriptures as we judge fit So there be other wayes to Hell besides Drunkennesse but what doth this hinder drunkennesse from being the high way to Hell Again had not David who was a murderer and adulterer had not Salomon who was an Idolater the infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost in writing several parts of the Holy Scripture But to prevent this and all that else where you doe or can say against the Pope I in my 21. Number desired you and all to take notice of that which here you quite forget I said I would have every one to know that the Roman Church doth oblige to no more then to believe that the Pope defining with a lawfull Council cannot erre How then doth the belief or faith of our Church I speak not of private mens private opinions invest infallibility in a person heretical or lewd Those Doctors who are of that opinion that the Pope can not erre in defining out of a general Council have other Answers to your Objection But that which you say is nothing against our faith which no man though never so little a Frenchman will say obligeth us to hold the Pope infallible in defining out of a general Council So much for this Whereas I said that we cannot have as things stand any other assurance to ground our faith upon then the Church you tell me I suppose the question Sir I did not suppose but onely propose what presently I meant to prove And where as you say that I do not well consider what I say when I say that as things stand we have no other assurance I answer That though God might have ordained otherwise yet as things stand the Church is the ground of our faith in all points speaking of the last ground on which we must stand not a Humane but a Divine ground The pillar and ground of Truth and it is the first because by it we believe the Scripture to be the Word of God as I shall shew Numb 20. chapter 3. Neither doe we first believe the Church for the Scripture as I shall shew chapter 3. Numb 31.32 though against those who have first admitted the Scriptures for Gods Word we do prove by the Scriptures the authority of the Church That I have said nothing against the practice of our Church appeareth by what I said just now shewing how the people deprave the hard places of Scripture to their own perdition 5. You charge me with abating from my first Proposition in which I said Divine Faith in all things was caused by the proposal of the Church because now I say that when by the infallible authoritie of the Church we are assured that the Scripture is the Word of God we may believe such things as are clearly contained in Scripture Good Sir Do you not see that if I be asked why I believe in this case such a thing my first answer will be because God hath said it in the Scripture but if I be pressed further and why do you believe the Scripture to be Gods undoubted Word my last answer must be for the infallible authoritie of the Church by which God teacheth this Verity Surely the main question that serveth for the knowledge of the ground work of all our faith is to examin upon what authoritie at last all our faith doth rely when all comes to all Take then the belief of what particular points you please and examine upon what authority it cometh at last to rely and you shall ever find it to be the authoritie of God revealing by the Church 6. Now whether my adversary be indeed as he saith one of the most slender Sons of the Church of England or whether he hath shewed that Treatise of mine to be no Demonstration Let the indifferent Reader after due pondering the force of all Arguments determin Sure I am that this is no Demonstration which you adde The Scripture is infallible but the Church is not therefore I must take for the ground of my Faith the Scripture For first The Scripture cannot be proved to be Gods Word without the Church be infallible as I shall shew chap. 3. Numb 20. Hence followeth secondly that the Church must have infallibilitie sufficient to support this most weightie Article of our faith That all the Scripture is the Word of God and therefore though upon her authority I believe Scripture to be most infallible yet because I ground this belief on her authoritie her authoritie is the last ground of Faith 7. And whereas in your next Number you promise such souls as have forsaken an infallible Church a happy eternitie upon this ground that those things which are necessary to salvation are plain in Scripture I pray God their souls come not to be required at your hands For this ground is most groundless in two respects First because no soul can have infallible assurance of the Scriptures being the true Word of God if the Church be not infallible and you refusing to stand on this ground make the last ground of all your faith to be I know not what kind of Light Visible to certain eyes such as yours are discovering unto them infallibly that such and such books be the infallible Word of God The vanity of which Opinion I shall shew chap. 1. Numb 20.21 22 23 24 25 26 27. Secondly It is most manifestly false That all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture as I shew chapter 3. 8. In your next Paragraph I find nothing which I have not here answered onely you still force me to say I would have every one to know that the Roman Church doth oblige to no more then to believe that the Pope defining with a lawfull Council cannot erre What proceeds from this authority we profess to proceed from the authoritie of the Church VVhen the Church diffused admitteth these definitions her consent is yet more apparent 9. As for your complaint that your paper is not fully answered I suppose that if any thing of importance was left unanswered you will tell me of it here that I may here answer it Concerning my manner in answering of you I must tell you that St. Thomas and the chief School Divines for clarity and brevity use to proceed thus Having first
that Gods Church may not lay claim with a thousand times far greater reason to the Spirit of the Holy Ghost assisting her even to infallibility in points of as much consequence the Church having far more proof of his assistance then every private Protestant Perhaps because our Divines often call the Scripture An undoubted Principle the first Principle you think they hold this Principle like the first Principle in Sciences which are therefore indemonstrable because they are of themselves as evident as any reason you can bring to make them more evident But the Scripture is onely said to be an unquestionable Principle because it is already granted to be Gods Word by all parties But why all grant it all must give the reason for the Scripture of it self cannot shew it self to be infallibly Gods Word as I have proved 29. Eighthly and lastly if you intend for the solution of any of the former Arguments though you cannot escape most of them by that shift to fly to the private assistance of the spirit helping you to see that which this light of the Scriptures alone cannot help them unto then you must come infallibly to know you have this help from the spirit of truth for it you know this onely fallibly that will not help you to an infallible assent Now how can you know this infallibility but by a Revelation secure from all illusion Tell me how you came by this Revelation Did you trie the Spirit whether it were of God or no If no how are you then secured If you did by what infallible means did you trie it If you can by Scripture we must needs laugh because we speak of the first act of belief by which you or any other first began to believe the Scripture to be infallibly Gods Word Before you believed the Scripture to be Gods infallible Word you could not by it as by a means infallible to your judgement trie your spirit and know it to be infallibly the Spirit of truth Again you could not know it to be the Spirit of ruth until you had first an infallible assurance that the Scripture by which you did try it was infallibly Gods true word And yet again you could not have an infallible assurance that such books of Scripture were Gods infallible word but by this infallible assurance you had that this Spirit helping you to see this was the Spirit of Truth so that you could not be infallibly assured of your Spirit until you had infallible assurance that the Scripture was Gods Word and you could not have infallible assurance that the Scripture was Gods Word untill you were infallibly assured of your Spirit Is not this clearly to walk in a Circle with the wicked 30. Having now shewed that you who reject the infallibility of the Church have left your selves no infallible ground upon which you can believe that most Fundamental Article of belief to wit that such and such Books be infallibly Gods true Word I am pressed to shew what infallible belief we have of this point and how we avoid all Circle I Answer that we ground the beliefe of this point upon the authority of the Church as being Infallible in proposing the Verities she hath received from God This infallibility I do not suppose but prove at large Chapter 4. If you have not patience to stay turn now to that place You falsly say that Whatsoever authority the Church hath towards this perswasion you also make use of as a motive to this faith She hath an infallible authority which you count a fancy and make no other use of it but to scoff at it and yet this infallibility alone must be that which groundeth not this perswasion but this infallible assent Take the Church as a most grave assembly of pious learned men without any infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost and their authority is but humane and so all the help you can have from them will not ground an infallible assent which we must have in our belief to hold Scripture infallible to be Gods Word The Scriptures as I have shewed have no where revealed which bookes be Scripture which not and so we have no other infallible ground left us but the authority of this Church as assisted infalliblie by the Holy Ghost Some thing even in this place I shall adde of this infallability so to satisfy your present longing 31. But for the present you are endeavoring to include me in a Circle as I did you in the last objection why say you do I believe the Scripture to be Gods word Because the Church saith it Very Well Why do I believe the Church Because the Scripture beareth witnes of it No Sir You never heard me give this reason unlesse it were when I spoke to one who independently of the Church did professe him selfe to believe the Scripture so be Gods Word as you do who professe to believe this upon an infallible assurance received as you say from Gods Word by the very reading of it Against those who upon another account different from the infallible authority of the Church receive Gods Word I prove that according to that word of God the Church is to be heard and believed as the piller and ground of truth And for this point I produce as clear Texts as you do for most of those points which you hold necessary for Salvation But if you be a Scholler you know that all our Divines in their Treatises of faith put this very question which you here put Why do you believe the church and not one of them answereth as you here make us answer that so you might the better impugn us with the applause of the deceived multitude Sir when we deal with those who have not admitted the Scriptures as infallible we do not prove them to be so by the Authority of the Church without first proving to them this Authority of the Church and that independently of Scripture to be infallible Now if you aske me how I doe this then indeed you speak to the purpose though not to your purpose which was to shut me up in a Circle into which you see I never set foot 32. Now if you will still be earnest to know why I do believe this Church to be infallible I answer that to give full satisfaction against all that a caviller can say requireth a Treatise longer then this whole Treatise What I have said is sufficient to avoid all Circle when withal I shall have told you that we proceed as securely and groundedly in the reasons for which we believe the Church to have received from God Commission to teach us those infalfallible Verities which she hath received from God with infallible certainty as many millions have proceeded in their imbracing the true Faith whose proceedings no man can condemn I pray why did the Jewes believe their Prophets to have had Commission from God to deliver his Word infallibly to them by word of mouth and by writing Surely
be imbrac'd with as infallible an assent as the doctrine of the Prophets and Apost Yea there have bin many miracles wrought to testifie many very many of those points in particular in which we differ frō you As you may see shew'd by Brierly only by looking in his Index 5. miracles but see him particularly T. 2. C. 3 Tr. S. 7. Subdivis And Tr. 1. S. 5. There you shall see how solidly grounded these Miracles are against which you can object nothing which is not objected with equal probabilitie by Heathens against the Miracles of the Prophets and by Jewes against those of the Apostles Tell me then if these two motives though there be yet many others be not as powerful inducements to move us to acknowledge that God hath given his Church infallible authoritie to teach us faithfully which she received from him as were those motives for which the Jewes did prudently believe that the Scripture given them by David by Salomon by Nahum by Amos and others were written with infallible authoritie by them having Commission from God to write what they did write We then believe the Church to have such a Commission with as good security as they acknowledged this Commission in those Scripture writers Whereas the ground upon which you believe Scripture is thought to be foolish and Chimerical by some of your best Writers 34. Yet to shew further how unsecurely the greater part of your Religion did ground their faith I did add this argument that the true Original Scriptures were written in languages not knowne to one among ten thousand if we speake of a perfect knowledge Others must trust the Translations of private men and believe them rather then the Translations used by the Church in general Councils Is it not cleere that the Authority of such Translations is far greater and far more to be judged to agree with the true Original then any of your private Mens Translations You your selfe confesse that Translations are only so far Gods word as they agree with the originals whence I infer that no body in your opinion can believe any point upon the authority of any Translations until he be assured that such a point agreeth with the true Hebrew or true Greek Original How disappointed then be most of your Religion especially your women who so fiercely fly upon us for believing the Church whilest they themselves must either believe nothing for they cannot believe any thing upon the credit of the English Translation until they know how exactly it agreeth with the true Greek or true Hebrew Original which is wholy impossible for them or else they must merely take upon trust the most fallible Translations for the infallible Original and trust rather in this most important point the learning and fair dealing of those private Ministers deeply interessed in this cause then trust the gratest authority upon earth which is a general Council having so strong promise of the assistance of the Holy Ghost I intreat you here to see Chapter 4. Numb 9. 35. Again I pray tell me how you learned Ministers who have so full knowledge of these languages as to Translate and upon your own knowledge to judge of true Translations made by others of you it is that I ask how you come to know and know so sufficiently as to ground an infallible assent in your selves and others when your Translations agree with the true Original For you have now confessed that Translations are only so far Gods word as they agree with the Originals And you must mean the true Originals or else you say nothing for agreeing with false or doubtful Originals will not make them Gods undoubted Word Tell me I say it again and again how do you know which be the true and undoubtedly true Originals and upon what secure ground do you know it The true Originals be either Hebrew or Greek As for the Hebrew all must know that the ancient Hebrew Copies were all written without points that is in full substance without Vowels Now they be the Vowels which make or marre the word and sense for a Vowell addeth the soul and the sound to the consonants and maketh them signify most different things For example for a Ball write only b ll to which consonants if you adde an a it is Ball adde an e it is Bell adde an u and it is a Bull So that great confusion must needs follow if the true points that is the true Vowells were not put to the same Consonants Well now again all must know that a good while after the time of Christ and his Apostles the Jewish Rabbies under pretence of avoyding the mistakes which might happen in the lesse skilfull in the Hebrew tongue which then was almost worn out did take the old Hebrew Testament and put the points that is the Vowels unto it so that the old Testament we now use came from these Jewish hands Tell me then how know you infallibly whither these perfidious Jewes had skill and honesty enough to deliver to us their Copies with the true points and Vowells and yet all depends on this The consonants alone will not assure us in these unskilful and so remote ages For the least change in appoint maketh most contrary things to be all one for no Man can tell especially infallibly whether these words an Angel had a b ll in his hand should be read thus an Angel had a Ball in his hand or a Bell or a Bill or a Bull. Put a false Vowel and it is all one To tast cheese and to tost cheese all one to be fatt and to be fitt to increase in Grace and to increase in Grece all one to eat a bitter fig and to eat a better fig. A pot ful of butter and a Pit ful of Batter will be the same Hence you see the small infallibility you have of the possessing the true undoubted Originall Hebrew old Testament As for the new testament Saint Mathewes Gospel was Originally written in Hebrew and that Originall is quite lost Now the other Greek Originalls which we have have a stupendious Variety He who found the word Infallible so unfortunate to him which you obiect to me telleth of his own knowledge a story most unfortunate to you and yours which I have also h eapd by an other way His words are these In my hearing Bishop Usher professed that whereas he had of many yeares before a desire to publish the Testament in Greek with Various Lections and Annotations and for that purpose had used great diligence and spent much money to furnish himself with Manuscripts yet in conclusion he was forced to desist utterly least if he should ingenuously have noted all the several differences of readings which himself had collected the incredible multitude of them almost in every verse should rather have made Men Atheisticall then satisfy them in the true reading of any particular passage An evident signe that the Governours of the Church did not onely rely
away from the words of this Prophesie God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life Luther took all the book away you hold it all Scripture and yet him a Saint You goe on and adde that the Apocalyps and other Books also have been doubted of But do you not mark the more doubt there hath been of them the more evident it is that they most ungroundedly be affirmed by you to carry their own light by which they may be seen as we see the Sun by his own light Again being you neither agree with us in the Canon of the Scripture nor with your own Brethren what reason have you to obtrude a Canon of your own coyning to us for Judge of all Controversies you not agreeing nor knowing how many books make up the true Canon and all agreeing that divers books of the true Canon be quite lost Where shall we find this our Judge Among us after the Church Delaration was notified concerning the receiving of any book for Canonical you will never find it doubted of by any true Catholiques You are mistaken if you think Saint Jerom held the Macchabees not to be Canonical after the definition of the Council of Carthage It was before that Council that he writ what he writ Concerning the rest you adde out of Saint Austin I would say more if you esteemed the Fathers more what you add after that hath already been answered 〈◊〉 14th 〈◊〉 50. In my 14. Num. for a further proof that the Scripture alone cannot decide all controversies I did and do still insist upon this argument that almost all Controversies do arise about the true sense of such or such a Text in Scripture The sense is the kernel the life the Soul of the text misse in this misse in all And yet about this sense greatest wits vastly differ in many points necessary to Salvation and consequently many misse the true sense to their eternall damnation This book of the Scripture by it self alone could never yet end these differences Therefore if God had left us no other means to end our differences but this Book about the true understanding of which all our differences arise he should have no better provided for our unity even in points necessary to Salvation then that Law-maker who should leave his Common-wealth a Book of Laws to end all their Controversies in Law about the meaning of which Book he knew all the cheifest Controversies would still arise This is indeed a repetition of what I said but it is a repetition of what you have not yet answered For against your first answer it is apparent that there is not only a necessity of a judge different from Scripture to declare unto us which books be the true and uncorrupted word of God but there is also a main necessity of such a judge to know the undoubted meaning of Gods undoubted Word about which there be far more controversies in points necessary to Salvation And though in your second answer you tell us that all points necessary to Salvation are plainly set down in Scripture yet I have plainly proved the contrary Chap. 3 Num. 200. And my discourse Contrary to your 3. Answer is affectual for in points necessary to Salvation to be believed with divine faith we must have an infallible authority to rely on for that faith which relieth upon a fallible authority cannot be an infallible assent And again if we have not full security of this infallible authority we cannot assent unto it with an assent infallible to which we being obliged by God God also must have furnished us of full security to know this authority to be infallible as I have shewed him to do And yet again that this infallible authority so well secured is invested in the Church appeareth sufficiently by this that the Scriptures not assisting us in the infallible knowledge of their own true sense in points necessary to be believed with infallible faith we must be assisted to this infallible knowledge by som other infallible means for fallible will not do the deed No other infallible means can with any shadow of probability be said given unto us but the infallible authority of the Church Therefore her authority must be infallible as shall at large be proved in the next Chapter and then in the next after that I will shew that this infallible Church is the Roman and none but the Roman 51. Again I said that if Christ had intended the Book of Scriptures for the judge of all Controversies the knowledge of this point being so primely necessary must needs be according to your principles evidently set down in Scripture in w◠all points necessary to salvation are as you say evidently set down You pretend here this point to be clear in Scripture but I have largely shewed the contrary and answered your objection And I retort it thus that if God would have us in all controversies guided by the Scripture only he would clearly have said so in these Scripture yea he would have told us the true undoubted Canon of Scripture This is now unknown to you And we are sure diverse parts of this Canon are lost what Scripture tels us we must be judged by only part of Scripture I pray answer this Of my 14th Number 52. Moreover I added that if God would have given us a Book for our Judge he would never have given us for our Judge such a Book as the Scripture is which very often speaketh obscurely sometime so prophetically that most would think it spoke of the present time when it speaketh of the time to come that it speaks of one person for example of David when it speaketh of another for example of Christ and much more I added to this effect that I might be rightly understood when I said that God would never have given us such a book for our Judge My adversarie to avoid this Argument so mangleth the sense that he may make my words sound of a blasphemous disrespect by reporting them as if I should have said If God had intended Scripture for our Judge he would not have given us such a Book as Scriture Which words taken without those particles for our Iudge seem to sound such an imperfect book as Scripture but taken with those particles which purposely were added to make the sense of the writer appear the sense can offend no man capable of sense For what man of understanding would affectionately crie out of disrespect if not of blasphemy against Scripture if he should hear one say if God had intended still the Scripture for sole Judge in all Law Controversies he would never have given us such a Book as the Scripture is for our Iudge Would any sober man let fall such a censure upon such an occasion Is it not manifest that the Scripture may be a Book as perfect as can be for the intent for which God made it and yet not be fit to decide all Controversies by
into the possession thereof even unto the Kingdome of God Whereas your own Musculus in Locis Tit. de Baptismo saith The Fathers denied salvation to the Children who died without Baptisme though their Parents were faithful And by reason of this necessitie of Baptisme to the salvation of Infants held so generally Calvin himself saith It was usual many Ages since even almost from the beginning of the Church that in danger of death Lay-people might baptize Institut Lib. 4. Cap. 15. Numb 20. And to say the contrarie were to crosse all Antiquitie as your Bilson confesseth in his Conference at Hampton Court Hooker saith no lesse in his 5. book of Ecclesiast Policy 62. A number of other learned Protestants are against your Opinion But I say lesse of this point for your own Opinion giveth me advantage enough to prove what I intend that is a point to be necessarie and yet not plainly set down in Scripture if you grant that there is a Precept necessary to be fulfilled by Parents that they procure their Children to be baptized But why God should command this the Children being as well saved without it according to you as with it still remains to be proved I stand upon your grant of this Precept as necessarily to be fulfilled by the Parents This Precept is necessary to be fulfilled This Precept is not plainly set down in Scripture Therefore all necessarie points are not plainly set down in Scripture Your answer will not here help you out you say Whatsoever is necessarily inferred from Scripture is binding in the Vertue of the Principle But you cannot shew that this precept given to the Parents is necessarily inferred out of Scripture Not out of the Institution of our Saviour for he also instituted the Eucharist not necessarie for Infants not out of the substitution to Circumcision for so it should not be necessarie to women no nor to any but those of the Iewish Nation to whom onely Circumcision was given as necessarie Is this a necessarie Consequence Circumcision was necessarie for the male children Ergo Baptisme is necessarie for male and female You see it is not halfe true Neither is that a necessarie Consequence which is drawne from the baptising of whole families for first as we read whole families were baptized so we read that whole families believed So Iohn 4. verse 53. Himselfe believed and his whole family Will you hence evidently infer that the little Children under yeares of discretion also believed as you infer that they are to be baptized by a necessarie precept Again this illation is far from being evident for it is not evident that there be litle ones in every family alive and those also under the age of discretion In many families all the little ones that be alive are above seaven yeares old There be many families of people newly married who have not yet any Children There be many families of people who never had Children as those who are barren Others have lost all they had by death It is then no evident consequence He baptized the whole family therefore he baptized litle Infants I insist not upon the Authorities I alledged out of Saint Austin St Chrysost because I deale with one who little regards authoritie confessed to be the Fathers 62. Now Sir to conclude this long Chapter I will shew that I conclude this point and so I doe all the former just as you say I must conclude For you say to me you must prove that those points were and ought to be determined by the Church upon necessitie of Salvation This I prove by this argument This point and all the former are necessarie to be believed with an infallible assent But we cannot believe any point with an infallible assent unlesse it be determined by an infallible authoritie therefore we must find out an infallible authoritie which hath determined these points The authoritie of the Scripture as I have proved hath not determined these points We must therefore find out some other infallible authoritie upon whose determination we may be able to do that which to be saved we must do to wit upon which we may be able to believe these points with an infallible assent No such infallible Authoritie can be found on Earth if we deny the Authoritie of the Church to be infallible I conclude then that her Authoritie must needs be infallible The Fourth CHAPTER The Church is this Judge Her Authoritie Infallible NO better beginning can I give to this Chapter Of my 17th Number then the very last Number of the last Chapter which I must intreat my reader to note most carefully so to observe the forcible deduction by which I prove the necessitie of a judge different from Scripture who must be infallible for the reason there assigned and who can be no other then the Church This proofe alone might serve the turn yet I adde 2. First those words Matthew 12.19 spoken to Saint Peter vpon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it these words allow the Church a securitie from ever admitting any doctrin so pernitious that the gates of Hell may prevail against her And this promise made to the Church is that which mainly makes to my purpose Whether the church be built upon Saint Peter and his Successors or upon the faith of Saint Peter is not the thing I cheifly here aim at My aim is to find a Church built on a Rock so strong that no error shall ever overthrow it And so I have nothing to do with your long disputation about Saint Peter I am now secured the Church shall never be a Nest of Errors Idolatrous superstitious wickedly assuming the authoritie of an infallible tribunall without sufficient warrant All or any of these things would bring her to the gates of Hell they being all damnable impieties That what is said of this infallibility of the Church only concerns the Roman Church I will shew in the next Chapter Have patience until then or read that first You being to say nothing against me untill you begin to say sixthly That you have enough against me for saying the Church is secured from all damnable errors by this promise For this maketh you think my meaning to be that Christ doth not intend here to exempt the Church from all error but only damnable But Sir my meaning in specifying her exemption from damnable errour was only that time to take for granted that which most of yours use to grant and even thence to presse your further you grant the Church free from damnable errour whence I have at least thus much that no body shall be damned for following the guidance of the Church And I have also that the whole Church being thus by divine assistance secured from erring damnably is secured from ever being destroyed by any damnable error she is therefore alwayes to have such a visible existence as is necessarie to afford a guidance secured
from erring damnable by it Now by what Logick do you inferre that because the Church is secured from all damnable errour therefore according to my doctrine shee is not secured from other errours All you build upon this consequence falls to the ground Going on I find you by the way quarelling with one of the Cardinall vertues even Prudence her self which you intimate then only to have place when Religion is chosen by interest I pray do you thinke in earnest that men cannot proceed prudently in the choise of their Religion Then you conclude that all the force my former argument hath it hath from Scripture Is not my argument the better for this against you who professe to believe Scripture to be Gods undoubted word independently of the authority of the Church because it is clearly manifested to you to be so by its light as the Sun by his light Is it not a convincing argument which is strengthened with an authoritie acknowledged so firme Against a Heathen untill I had proved Scripture to him I would not use this argument 4. Presently I find you again stumbling at the sense in which I took the word damnable as if I should allow the following of the Church in other errours No Sir you cannot follow her in other errors because she cannot go before you in any errour not in any damnable errour as your own selves teach no nor in any other errour as in this very next argument is proved if you mark the force of it 5. The force then of my next Argument is this God commandeth us to obey the Church and hear her in obeying her and hearing her we follow Gods Command But no kind of errour little or great can be incurred by following Gods Command therefore we can be lead into no kind of errour by following the Church Again you your selves say it is impossible to be obliged to assent to an errour though it be not a damnable errour Wherefore if I can prove that we are obliged to follow the Church I shall prove also that shee cannot guide us into any kind of errour This I prove by that text Matthew 18. verse 18. If he will not hear the Church let him be unto thee as a publican or a Heathen Therefore meerly and purely for not hearing the Church a man is to be held and truely according to Gods judgment deserving to be held a publican or Heathen but all we are obliged not to deserve to be held by Gods judgement Publicans or heathens Therefore all are obliged to hear the Church being that meerly and purely for not hearing her they are to be held and deservingly held according to Gods judgment Publicans and Heathens as is also further insinuated in the next verse where it is said this sentence shall be ratified in Heaven Now if any man reply that we are to heare the Church so long as she swerveth not from Gods word my answer is that to swerve from Gods word is to erre but this text proveth she cannot erre Ergo it proveth that she cannot swerve from Gods word and indeed if she could the meerly not hearing her could not deserve that a man should deserve to be accounted according to Gods judgement a Publican or Heathen But you tell me this text is to be understood not of matters of faith or unbelief but of matters of trespasse between brother and brother and refractoriness in the person And that it respects excommunication by censure in which also it may erre Neither is a man bound to believe the censure is just unless it appears to be so This last assertion of yours is very extravagant doctrine for the unanimous opinion of learned men is That a man is bound to hold his superiours censure or command to be just unless the contrary appears evident See your own Doctors Chillingworth P. 308 N. 108. Hooker P. 310 311. N. 110. Laud P. 226. And indeed you bring all to this that when all comes to all you are the last judge to whose sentence finally all comes to be referred and not to the sentence of the Church for you reserve to your selfe the last judgement of her sentence to see whether it be just or no in your own private opinion Sir if the contrary be not evident the Church who is Superior is to be followed and obeyed If the contrary be evident it is impossible such a superior as the Church is assembled in a general Council should not mark that evidence without we will call that evident or not evident which is for our present turn to call evident or not evident That which is truly evident will of it selfe appear to be so at least to the most judicious upright and best instructed Prelates of the Church And this is to be said according to human Reason although they had no infallible promise of a more then humane assistance from the Holy Ghost Moreover Sir let us if you please not passe so farre as the Censure but let us make a stay in the mere consideration only of the cause for which the censure is given that the cause is not hearing the Church for this and meerly for this only cause according to the text this man is according to Gods judgement deservedly to be held as a Publican or Heathen and therefore if for this act of not hearing the Church the censure cometh to be after wards pronounced against him that censure will be made good in Heaven as the next verse clearly saith Wherefore it is impossible that this Censure should be unjust if he truly be guilty of not hearing the Church It is true that a man may by false information or some such way be judged to be guilty of not hearing the Church when really he is not guilty and so there may be an errour in the mistake of the fact and thus Clave errante in mater of fact the sentence will not be ratified in Heaven But this is nothing to the purpose for still he who is truly guilty of not hearing the Church is for that only fact and meerly for that cause to be held deservedly according to Gods judgment as a publican or Heathen And so the Church cannot errour in denouncing Excommunication against such a person And hence you see how truely miserable such a person is and how it must needs be damnable unto him not to heare the Church which not to hear maketh a man to be held as a Publican or Heathen most deservedly and according to Gods owne judgement To hold himself not to deserve this punishment is to hold against Scripture You highly wrong Saint Athanasius to say he heard not the Church See my 9. Number These my Premisses being made good it followeth clearly that no man is secure in conscience who will not obey the Church And hence again it followeth that this Church cannot erre at least damnably for else a Man might in Conscience be bound to follow a damnable errour No she cannot erre in an
private Priests are far more likely to teach them Gods law by teaching them what the Universal Church holds to be Gods Law then by teaching them what they themselves conceive to be Gods Law as you would have them do 11 Now to prove further the Church to be a competent judge guiding us no lesse securely then those many millions were guided who had an infallible faith and the same Spirit of faith with us as S. Paul said though their faith were grounded on the authority of no Scripture but wholy and intirely on the tradition of their infallible Church I urged that in those two thousand years and more before Moses did write the very first book of Scripture the true faith of all the true believers of those Ages depended in its infallibility upon their Churches being infallible in proposing the traditions she had received shall we allow infallibility to that Church and deny it to Christs Church shall we be worse provided for in so main a point in the law of grace then they were in the law of Nature what text of Scripture is there for this Then it was not written Hear the Church then it was not written that the gates of Hell should not prevail against her Nor that she was the Pillar and ground of truth that the spirit of truth abided with her then teaching her then all truth All this and far more then this as I shall shew in this chapter is written now of Christs Church And yet you will say we are not sufficiently certified of her infalliblity I pray tell me how then were they certified and infallibly certified of the infallibility of their Church How did Men then infallibly know that they were bound under pain of damnation to believe the tradition of that Church shew me then what you demanded of me lastly to shew that is shew the ground they had then to hold their Church infallible and the infallibility of the knowledge of it and infallibly what was the subject of this infallibility If you cannot shew that they could not then do it better then we now then refuse not to stand up to our Creed Your answer to so convincing an argument is most unsatisfactory and it would make a man think your intent were to plead against your self You say this was answered before it was written what was that answer It was that the word in substance of it was before the Church which was begotten by it to this you add that when there is now as much need and as great certainty of tradition as formerly then I may urge this argument so when you speak of the word of God which you say was before all writing and which begot the Church you must speak of the unwritten word This unwritten word is that very thing which we call tradition and indeed when you speak of such a word as must be sufficient for an exterior and an infallible direction for so many millions as were by it onely to be directed in the way of Salvation before any Scripture was written you must of necessity put this word outwardly expressed somewhere and expressed in such a manner as may be able to produce this effect of guiding whole millions in the way of Salvation by an infallible beliefe of what God hath said by that word Now I pray find me out any word of God any where existent before Scripture but in the Orall Tradition of the Church of those times You say Gods word revealed is the ground of all faith They then had faith therefore they then had Gods word revealed and revealed in a sufficient manner to ground divine faith But they only had Gods word revealed by Tradition Therefore Gods word revealed by tradition is a sufficient ground to ground divine faith By this unwritten word that is by this Tradition of the Church she from a small Church consisting of those very few to whom God by his own mouth did first of all speak or by his Angels grew to be a multitude of true believers And so the Church was begotten by Tradition upon which only this multitude that is the Church did judge most prudently that to be the true word of God which was by so powerfull a motive perswaded to be so That hence you may see that this very motive alone is a very sufficient inducement to receive the Verities recommended by it and to receive them with an infallible assent For this was the only inducement which we know the true believers to have had for those 2000. years and more which were before Moses did write the first book of Scripture And those Scriptures which were written from the law of Moses to the time of Christ were only kept among the Iewes and this time lasted two thousand yeares more during which long time many among the Gentiles as apeareth by Job and his friends had true divine faith with out any knowledg of the Scripture wholy unknown unto them this faith of theirs could have no other ground but Gods unwritten Word delivered to them by Tradition Therefore Gods unwritten Word delivered by Tradition only is a sufficient ground for infallible faith 12 And whereas you add That when there is as much need and as great certainty of Traditions as formerly then I may urge this argument I answer that the need or necessity of Traditions which you conceive to have been greater then now doth not make the Traditions more credible Those who have read very much in very many credible books of France have no need at all of any unwritten and orall tradition to make them believe there is such a countrey as France yet these men whom we will suppose to live at Dover doe as certainly know by unwritten or Orall Tradition of men daily coming from France bringing French passengers French commodities and as to those who never read one word concerning France not being able to read at all And those who are not able to read at all are not lesse assured by unwritten tradition that there is such a Kingdome as France because there be many books written of France and the French warrs with the English So though we have now the Scriptures written concerning most points of faith we are not lesse helped by tradition because there be such books extant And good Sir consider how great our necessities are of both these helps for even now when we have Scriptures and Traditions we have ever had with them a perpetuall succession of horrible divisions opening still wider and wider All commonly caused by the misinterpretation of the Scripture to which inconvenience they were not subject before all Scripture was written And therefore in this respect there is now after the writing of the Scripture a greater necessity then ever of Tradition both to assure us which books be the word of God which not which be the true which the false Copies of these books Where they be secure where corrupted And lastly which is the true sense of
which collectively taken maketh your other ground of Christian belief to stand upon therefore Saint Pauls words were spoken of the Church as of such a pillar of truth and such a ground of truth as might then be securely relied upon in all matters of faith and confessedly as then the true believers had not the Scriptures sufficiently compleated to be their adaequate Rule of Faith Now after the writings of these Scripture recommending the Church as the pillar and ground of Truth this ground was so far from growing weaker that the confirmation of Scripture added new force to it I have now shewed you the Text in which without any subordination to Scripture as then not written the Church was by Saint Paul called the pillar and ground of Truth Now shew me your Text in which there must be a subordination and such a subordination as may make the Church not to be truly such a pillar and such a ground of Truth as all men may not now rely on it any longer as they did before all Scripture was written I call for your Text not for your reason against which other Reasons will soon be found And as for that saying of Saint Irenaus the Scripture is the pillar and ground of Truth it hath not upon his saying greater authority then the terming of the Church the pillar and ground of truth hath upon the authority of St. Paul My proofe as grounded on S. Paul is stronger then yours as grounded on St. Irenaeus yet I make not St. Irenaeus contrary to St. Paul what he saith of the Scripture I yeild for true yeild me what St. Paul saith that I may ground my faith upon the Church This I cannot do unless God speaketh by his Church If God speaketh by his Church I pray believe what he speaketh He telleth me by his Church that I am to admitt of the Scriptures as his undoubted word upon this his telling me so I ground that faith by which I believe the Scriptures so that I believe the Scriptures for the Church which faith of mine is as surely grounded as was the faith of the true believers who at that very time in which St. Paul did write these words did ground their faith in all points upon the Church as you cannot deny And thus in repect of us the Church is first believed independently of Scripture to which we are most prudently moved by such motives as I have specified and the Scripture in order to us cometh to be acknowledged as Gods word upon the authority of the Church there being no other assured stay speaking of the whole and undoubted Canon to know the true Scripture from false The Scripture is not the first Principle but upon supposition that every one among christians admit of it for Gods Word and so we argue out of it against one another But speaking of him who is to begin to be a christian as where all once began he cannot admit of Scripture as men admit of the first Principles of Sciences which of themselves appear so clearly true that all you can bring to prove their truth will appear lesse true then those Principles appear by themselves The Scripture is not the first Principle in this sense appearing evidently by its own light to be Gods Word as I have shewed at large And this answereth all you say until you come to make good your new interpretation of St. Pauls words an interpretation unheard of to all antiquity and to all men until this age Necessity now forced men to their shifts to put off Scripture when it made against them These words must now be necessarily referred to that which is said in the verse following concerning the mystery of the Incarnation and so though St. Paul did write this Epistle in Greek he must needs be said to have used here an Ebraisme And why must he needs be said to have done so here in this particular place because somtimes such Ebraisms be used in the new Testament Whether this reason wil justifie so new an interpretation of words even for a thousand and five hundered yeares applied to the Church never applied to the Mistery of the Incarnation shall be determined even by the Principles of one of your greatest Divines now living I mean Dr. Jeremy Taylor in his Discourse of the Liberty of prophecying Sect. 4. An other great pretence for justifying new interpretations is the conference of places which you would use here by conferring this place to some few places in which such Ebraismes be used in Greek A thing of such indefinite capacity that if there be ambiguity of words variety of sence alteration of circumstances or difference of stile amongst Divine writers there is nothing which may be more abused by wilful people or may more easily deceive the unwary or that may amuse the most intelligent observours This he proveth by several examples and then he truly saith This is a fallacy a Posse ad esse It is possible a thing sometimes may be so therefore undoubtedly here it is so There be such Ebraismes some where therefore they must needs be here where for a thousand and five hundred yeares no man observed any such thing Most truly saith the same Doctor This is the great way of answering all the Arguments which can be brought against any thing that any man hath a mind to defend Sir you who make the Scripture judge of all Controversies should not of all men justifie such liberty of new interpretation as this your proceeding would bring in Or if you doe you will soon see and may already see it that your judge will be made to speak what each party pleaseth And thus will be unable to decide any thing But to proceed The Church truly being before the Canon was written the pillar and ground of truth in it self without any subordinatiō so that the believers looked no further then that God taught them such and such things by the Church I have from the text all I desire to prove that Gods assistance promised to the Church should reach as farre as infallibility Whether this infallibility be equal to that of the Apostles or no maketh not to the purpose so long as it is granted that our faith relying upon her authority doth rely as securely as that which relies upon the Pillar and ground of truth Here you come in with a parenthesis noting me for a French Catholique for allowing infallibility to the Pope defining with a council Sir you are no Schollar if you know not that all Roman Catholiques allow infallibility to the Pope defining with a council 24 But because I say also that God speaketh by his Church proposing infallibly his truth by her mouth you tell me that I hence may plainly see how the Roman tyranny drawes me necessarily into peril of blasphemy A deepe charge needing a strong proof And yet all your proof is because now there is no need of Scripture since God speakes as infallibly by his Church as
and privately exhort us to seek out and serve God we are not to dispair that there is some authority appointed by the same God on which authority we relying as on an assured step may be lifted up to God My adversary wil needs read these last words thus On which authority we relying as on an assured step may be lifted up to God Velut gradu incerto innitentes attolluram ad Deum As if an unassured or an uncertain step could help to lift us up to God and were a thing to be relied upon to this end and given us as a help by God to this end that we may rely upon it and we being so well provided of uncertainty in the authority appointed by God for us ought nor to despair of coming by this authority to the certain truth Is not this perfect and compleat non-sense And can you think in earnest that here you have reason to tell me that the scope of St. Austins discourse may discover my corrupting his Text Doth it not evidently discover the corruption of your FrobeniaÌ„ Edition An. 1569. which would needs read Gradu incerto innitentes attellamur ad Deum whereas other Editions read gradu certo innitentes even the Edition of Erasmus whose judgement yours use to esteem most accurate Yea he in the beginning of his Edition professeth to put down such a Note as this is when he varieth from the Frobenian Edition and yet here he putteth no such note in his Paris Edition Anno 1555. which Edition of Erasmus is ancienter then yours So that your Frobenian Edition corruptedly differeth in this place from that ancienter Frobenian Edition of which Erasmus made mention a dozen years before yours was printed Neither can you make any thing like sense of S. Austins words by reading them as you cited them that by the authority appointed by God we should as by an uncertain step be lifted up to God So that here you may easily perceive how little reason you had to carp at infallibility And again you had as litle reason to put me in mind that one part of that authority of which St. Austin here speaketh is drawn from the miracles which Christ did Sir do these miracles make this authority to be relied upon as upon an unassured step or as upon an assured step to lift us up to God Now Sir how shal you ever be able to secure me that you can know and infallibly know corrupted Scripture from uncorrupted when I see this your talent in knowing corruptions so deficient as I have here shewed it to be even when you are so confident of it that you charge your adversary of corruption which had you not done he had now made no use of this place so clear to his purpose But he must needs now expect a better answer from you to this place 37. In my 24. I intreat you not to explicate the places which I had above alledged for the Churches infallibility Of my 24. â—h Number as if they were to be understood so as onely to be true when the Church judgeth conformably to Scripture for even in that sence the devil himselfe father of Lyes is infallible so long as he teacheth conformable to Scripture and the gates of hell cannot by errour prevail against the devil of Hell Yea as long as he doth this he will be the pillar and ground of Truth that is subordinately as you speak of the Church to wit so far as either of them rely on the written word You answer first that we are not commanded but forbidden to consult with the Devil but we are enjoyned to consult with the Church of God I answer that this hinders not his being infallible as long as he speaketh conformably to Scripture And I am glad to see you acknowledge a command to consult with the Church for sure I am that this must be understood of consulting with a visible Church and visible in all Ages For people were in all ages to obey this command of consulting with her But it is impossible in any age to consult with an invisible Church Therefore there was in all ages a true visible Church Secondly you say we have alwayes cause to suspect the Divel I answer this hinders not his being truly infallible so long as he teacheth conformably to Scripture In your third answer you seem to make the divel and the Church agree for you neither believe the divel in point of truth upon his authority nor the Church to speak truth upon her authority wherefore for all you have said as yet the divel may as well be the pillar and ground of truth as the Church though I confesse freely it is not his office to be so Again though you be not moved to think that the divel saith to be true yet this hinders not his speaking as true as the Church doth as long as he speaketh conformable to Scripture And though I grant that you may in some respect make more account of what the Church saith for her authority then of what the devil saith upon his authority yet standing still in our case which supposeth the divel de facto to deliver what is conformable to Scripture you who refuse to give an infallible assent to what the Church saith at all times but when you see that which she saith to be conformable to Scripture you I say must never build this assent as infallible more upon the Church then upon the divel to whose saying you would give an infallible assent when you see that which he saith to be conformable to Scripture But whilst you are so busie in giving so many answers to what I said about the divel you smother up that which clearly overthroweth the reply of you and yours who say we must follow the Church only so far as we see her follow Scripture For I shewed that those who could not see at all how far the Church followed Scripture were bound to follow that Church for the first two thousand yeares of the world which were before all Scripture or before what was known to be the Scripture in substance or before it were known whether there should be any Scripture or no. So how could those many barbarous Nations who never having seen the Scripture did truly believe as S. Ireneus testifies what was taught them by the Church though they could not possibly see how far that which was taught them and that which they believed did agree with the Scripture which they had never seen 38. Your two next paragraphs contend to take from me two of my former texts cited for the infallibility of the Church by expounding those texts not to speak of the visible Church But I have shewed the contrary concerning them both Concerning that out of Daniel I did shew this even now Num. 34. Concerning that out of Esay I shewed it Num. 32. And 33. As for all additional testimonies out of Fathers you know why I resolve to passe them Of my
of you in this dispute you have first said you knew not what and now you know not what to say Tell us where the originall of infalibilitie lies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 surely it doth not become infalibilitie to be so reserved To passe this you tell me in your fourth Par. that I lay to your charge the supposing of the question And I am still of that minde For if you say that as things stand we have no other assurance to ground our faith upon but the Church you do plainly suppose that which is mainly in question and so must do until you prove it And I still say unto you as I did that you do not well consider what you say in saying as things stand as if the rule of faith were a Lisbian rule and might alter upon occasions and as if the Scripture must be accommodated to the use of the Church Yes intellectus currit cum praxi And the Scripture is to follow the Church and not the Church the Scripture would you have it so So it seems by what follows for so you answer that though God might have ordained otherwise yet as things stand the Church is the ground of our faith in all points speaking of the last ground on which we must stand to wit not an humane but Divine ground the pillar and ground of truth And what do you say here more than you said before or more than we can say mutatis mutandis Though God could have ordained otherwise that there should have been a standing Councel or a singular person successively infalible to have proposed and determined all things infalibly yet as things stand the Scripture is the ground of our faith in all points necessary speaking of the last ground on which we must stand not a humane but a Divine ground Wherein are we inferiour to you but that we do not put in all points But we put in all points necessarie And what need more And the Church is not yet proved to determine any thing infalibly the Scripture proposeth all things necessary infalibly And me thinks you should if you please think the Scripture a divine ground rather than the Church To take then your own principle The ground of faith must be Divine The Church is not a ground Divine Therefore no ground The Major is your own The assumption is proved thus The Testimonie of men is Humane The Testimonie of the Church is the Testimonie of men Therefore The first proposition in the ordinary capacity of men is plaine For no effect can exceed the cause And the second proposition is as plaine if the men that are of the Church are considered as private men by your own grounds But these men you say being in the capacitie of a Church are inspired by the Holy Ghost so as they cannot erre in any point True if they be assisted with the Holy Ghost Well but how shall I know what a Church is and whether such men be of the Church and whether such men be assisted with the Holy Ghost Yea whether there be an Holy Ghost All these particulars I must be satisfied in before that I can believe by a Divine faith that what the Church proposeth definitively is true A Church cannot be in the nature of it expressed without a profession of that Religion which directs man to his supernaturall end Now this Religion requires a supernaturall revelation as Aquinas disputes it in the begining of his Sums Then this Religion must be revealed being not naturally intelligible either by principles or works of nature Where and how is this Religion revealed you cannot say by the Church for the question is of the Church And so consequently how is it revealed that such are of the Church and assisted by the Holy Ghost or that there is an Holy Ghost Expedite these questions And again consider that S. Austin and other Fathers have spoken freely of discerning the Church by Scripture whe◠in I am informed what Religion is what a Church which the true Church and that there is a Holy Ghost Again I must believe by a divine faith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth as you say Well but how shal I come by this divine faith God infuseth it you will say well but doth he infuse it immediately as in respect of Scripture So you must say well then cannot you think that he can infuse faith of the Scripture immediately in respect of the Church Answer me is this faith wrought in me by the credibility of the Church or not if not how If so then the Church is naturally 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the testimonie of the Church must be resolved into the testimonie of men extra rationem Ecclesiae then is it of itself but humane Therefore must you come to this that the Testimonie of the Church is infallible by Athoritie of Scripture Well then if so then the Church is not the last ground on which we must stand Nor yet is it the first ground as we take it for a Divine ground which you mean for it is not Divine but by the word of God yea if the Church be the last ground on which we must stand then why do you prove the Authority of the Church by the Authority of Scripture And if you say that you also prove the Scripture to be the word of God by the Church yet not as the last ground but the Church is resolved into the Authoritie of Scripture as the last ground for if the Church hath no being as such but by Scripture in the substance of it then the Church must be ultimately grounded in Scripture for that which is primum in generatione is ultimum in resolutione So a primo ad ultimum the Scripture is the ground of faith And so this will be contrary to what follows in your last that we do not first believe the Church for the Scripture If you speak of a generall motive to believe the Scripture so we may begin with the Church upon the account of credible men as towards humane faith but if you speak of belief as Divine so we cannot first begin with the Church because we must first be assured of the Church by the word of God under the formalitie of Divine faith the word of God must be first in genere credibilium unlesse there were a resultance of a Church out of naturall principles which is not to be said And in your following words you intimate as much as if we might first admit the Scripture to be the word of God and then prove by the Scriptures the authority of the Church If we may admit the Scriptures for Gods word first then first the Scriptures may be believed to be the word of God without the authority of the Church which is contrary to what you have said formerly Then secondly the Scripture must be the last ground of faith because as before that which is first in generation is last in resolution And
then thirdly Why do you dispute with us concerning the Authority of Scriptures by the Church since we have admitted the Scriptures for the word of God And therefore should you not urge us to the acknowledgement of Scriptures by the Authoritie of the Church but wholly to the acknowledgement of the Church by the Authority of the Scriptures Paragr 5. In the fifth Par. you say you charge me with abating from my first proposition in which I said Divine faith in all things was caused by the proposall of the Church because now I say that when by the infalible Authoritie of the Church we are assured that the Scripture is the word of God we may believe such things as are clearly contained in Scripture Ans And I cannot yet bate you an ace of my charge For your termes are of a believing indefinitely upon proposall of the Church as if 't were the immediate formall cause of all faith and so severall of your Arguments would prove that the Scripture is not at all our rule but the Church And this your first paper made to be the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and therefore if you had clearly intended the dispute of this point whether we are to believe the Scripture to be the word of God by the Authoritie of the Church and so consequently or causally all to be believed for the Church you should have made this the state of the main question But now you say when by the infalible Authoritie of the Church we are assured that the Scripture is the word of God we may believe such things as are clearly contained in Scripture And do you not go lesse now Do but compare the quantities of your assertions before all things to be believed upon and for the proposall of the Church now some things may be believed for the Scripture which are plainly contained in it And the Church and the Scripture are in our case opposed so then if first all is to be believed by the Authoritie of the Church and now some things clearly contained may be believed upon Scripture then do you not onely abate but contradict your self in effect for it will come to this all is to be believed upon the proposal of the Church somwhat may be believed not upon the proposal of the Church but of Scripture For when we are assured you say that the Scripture is the word of God we may believe such things as are plainly contained in Scripture then we are to believe it upon the account of the word of God And your Church can have no higher Authoritie surely than God's word for it Therefore if you say we are to believe what is plainly contained in Scripture when we are assured by the Church that it is the word of God for the authoritie of the Church then I pray tell me why we should believe the Church if not for the word of God Again to consider these words of yours if we must be assured by infalible Authority of the Church that the Scripture is the word of God before we can believe what is plainly contained therein then either one of us must yeild upon the case of the infalibilitie of the Church or else nothing plainly contained in Scripture can be by your opinion believed But you think that some things are plainly set down in Scripture though elsewhere you would conclude as if all things in Scripture were obscure and so you now also abate in this and herein we both agree and we think the Church's Authority is not infalible wherein we differ from you Now which think you in reason should yeild you or we One would think you should yeild rather since we can prove that whatsoever is contained in Scripture is to be believed without the Authoritie of the Church and you cannot prove the Authority of the Church to be plainly contained in Scripture yea must yet believe upon your principles the infalible Authority of the Church before you can believe it though plainly contained in Scripture because you must first be assured by the infalible Authoritie of the Church that the Scripture is the word of God before you do believe what is contained in Scripture And again thirdly we are assured that the Scripture is the word of God why may not we then have leave to believe things plainly contained in Scripture Certa sunt in paucis as Tertullian saith We say certain necessary truths are not so many Why are not we then well grounded in Religion surely in your account because we do not go to divine faith by your infalible Church Even as the death of Remus it was ordained by Romulus that whosoever went over the trench at the building of Rome any other than the ordinary way should be put to death so Zâ—n 2. An. because we do not go the ordinarie Roman way to the building of us in our most holy faith we must die for ever As if our faith were not true Divine faith because it is not implicit by the Church Which is as much as to say the obedience of faith is not good because it is not blind And this is as much as to say we do not see because we do not see And therefore fourthly since as hath been shewed the authority of the Church is resolved into Scripture and since you have confessed that we may admit the Scriptures to be the word of God and yet may need to be assured of the Authoritie of the Church your apologie for your self in this paragraph must needs be insufficient In the sixth Par. You begin with taking notice of my character of my self to be one of the slender sons of the Church of England whether so or whether he hath shewed that Treatise of mine to be no demonstration Let the indefferent reader after the due pondering the force of all Arguments determine Sir I dare not alter my small opinion of my self And therefore the consideration of such matters should have dropped from a judicious head into a learned pen. And if your demonstration as you call it be indeed such as doth merit the terme you have proved me to be no better than my word And if I prove it to be no demonstration I do not yet falsifie what I said of my self For I shall impute the cause of it to our cause the weakest hand may defend our cause the strongest cannot defend yours To passe this you go on Sure I am that this is no Demonstration which you adde the Scripture is infalible but the Church is not therefore I must take for my ground the Scripture Ans But you leave out the scope of this Argumentation and the formalitie of the conclusion You spake of as clear a Demonstration as any wise man can hope for in this matter I told you it was hard to say who does optimum quod sic Well but then I wished you to put it to the test and to try the debate of it by this rule of wisdome and
conscience tene quod certum est relinque quod incertum hold that which is certain leave that which is uncertain it is certain that the Scripture is infalible and you confesse it it is not certain that the Church is infalible and I deny it Which then should you take to be the rule and ground and cause of faith So I in my last But you leave out all notice of my disputing this with you in point of wisdome and cut off your own confession and would have me to make this a Demonstration absolutely in point of truth You do wisely to shuffle it off since you cannot well bear the dint of it in the way of discourse ad hominem And yet also is it necessarily certain that if our grounds be more certain then your's are not because they are contradictorie But you making it to be in my account an absolute Demonstration answer first the Scripture connot be proved to be the word of God without the Church be infalible as I shall shew ch 8. But this was not now the particular question I disputed upon your own concession And therefore this is nothing to my Argument Apply your answers to my proceeding with you upon your account of prudence And then secondly Though it be not a Demonstration that the Scripture is infalible the Church not therefore I must take for my ground the Scripture yet it concludes upon advantage for though the Church were infalible in the testimony of the Scripture to be the word of God yet the Scripture were to be the immediate ground of all necessary points Thirdly Neither doth it contradict my assertions that the Church is not the rule and cause of faith though it were infalible in this Testimony for if it were infalible in this yet would it not follow it should be infalible in all as I have told you and you have not answered me yet And then Fourthly The Scripture may appeare to be the word of God though the Church be not infalible as will be shewed in answer to you And therefore all you say upon this hence followeth secondly that the Church must have infalibilitie sufficient to support this most weightie Article of our faith that all the Scripture is the word of God and therefore upon her Authority I believe the Scripture to be most infalible yet because I ground this belief upon her Authoritie her Authoritie is yet the last ground of faith I say all this hath no sound discourse and will come 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 even into nothing upon the two last answers first because if from hence I believe the Scriptures to be the word of God yet am I not therefore ex vi consequentiae bound to hold the Church the last ground of faith in all things for it plainly concludes a dicto secundum quid We can hold that the Generall Councell may be infalible in points necessary though not in all points whatsoever although you must hold infalibilitie in all or none because you say all is delivered by the Church upon her Authority equally without respect to the matter And then secondly upon the last answer which was the fourth we shall cashiere all that is said here for that it will appear that the Scripture is the word of God without the Churches Authoritie for the corroboration of the Title And so there needs not the infalibilitie sufficient to support this most weighty Article of faith that all the Scripture is the word of God â—um 7. And whereas in your next number you promise such souls as have forsaken an infalible Church an happy eternity upon this ground that those things which are necessary to Salvation are plain in Scripture I pray God their Soules come not to be required at your hands Ans I am beholding to my Adversary for his good wishes that I may not answer for other mens souls But if he takes here forsaken formally and an infalible Church really so not accounted only to be so by him I deny it that we have so forsaken such a Church for neither is it infalible 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and besides they have rather forsaken us and the whole Church in pretending infalibilitie to themselves and Domination over all that will be true Christians No particular Church can be bound to another more than as it doth comply with the Catholick Church now then if any do leave the Catholick as the Roman hath done we cannot join with them wherein they leave the Catholick either in point of faith or discipline If we are to give respect to a particular Church as an actuall part of the whole then where it separates we must follow the whole A turpis est omnis pars universo suo non congruens And yet they first made the actuall Schism when the Popes Bull prohibited communion with us So then take forsaken rightly and an infalible Church really we deny the charge Take them otherwise we denie the consequence of danger But my Adversarie would prove our ground to be groundless first because no Soul can have infalible assurance of the Scriptures being the true word of God if the Church be not infalible c. Whereof you promise more Num. 20. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Ans This we have had so often without proof that it is to no purpose to say any thing to words for Arguments Scaurus negat as Alphonsus de Castro opposeth his adversary Yea also you refer me here for proof in the third ch Your conclusion is here your proof there so far is your conclusion from proof Premisses were wont to be before the Conclusion but your opinion is already shewed vaine as touching the ground of your certainty and your vanity of my opinion I shall refute when you shew it And so you serve me for the second respect wherein you say my ground is groundlesse for you say it is manifestly false that all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture as you shew ch 3. Your conclusion here that it is manifestly salse c. I believe will be too large for your Arguments as it is now too soon We follow your order as having nothing to do untill you begin In your eighth Par. You say I find nothing in the next Par. which I have not here answered Onely you still force me to say again I would have every one to know that the Roman Church doth oblige to no more than to believe that the Pope defining with a lawfull Councell cannot erre what proceedeth from this Authority we professe to proceed from the Authority of the Church When the Church diffused admitteth these definitions her consent is yet more apparent You say you find nothing in it which here you have not answered And what can I finde here but that you say Only you force me to say again Here is some ingenuitie that you seem not to love to swell your papers with repetitions Therefore prove it once say it no more Quid
put in such words as I knew how to answer and leaved out his true words I altered no words but expounded him in them as I had reason For if every one might be left free without such a Judge to what he judged best this freedome would be simple or morall If simple then it would be without a fault and if morall it would be without a fault but now he denies that he meant a morall freedome Yet is it best for him to understand such a freedome according to his principles for if we have not a morall freedome without a fault to believe what we judge best then have we lesse reason of giving undisputed assent to an externall Judge since we are awed and commanded under peril of a fault to take heed what we do believe And therefore cannot we believe this Judge with blind obedience because it seems now we may not believe what we will but we must see good reason for what we do believe And good reason it is that good reason should exclude blind obedience And indeed his consequence is false in terminis for we have not a simple freedome to believe what we will as I said because the understanding naturally assents to truth apparent But this he takes no notice of as if I had said no such thing How much of my words he takes away privatively which must inferre a variation of my sense may be gathered by compare of my copy with his rehersall and it appears that negatively he hath taken away a great part of my words for he saies to them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And so his argument is null and his vindication nullified Onely I must also note that he did not well weigh his own consequence if every man were left free to hold what he judged best we should have as many Religions as private judgements for in principles of Religion we are not like to differ if we believe the Scripture and particular Controversies which you direct your discourse to if you speak ad idem if not you are more to be blamed do not make different Religions because then you must have different Religions amongst your selves In the begining of this number my Adversary would faine take me tripping or enterfearing upon my own words by a consequence Num. 4. because as he thinks I take away all meanes of regulating our judgement and yet say we should not follow our own judgement of discretion without meanes of regulating our judgement Ans His reason may well be put into this forme he that taketh away all infallible means takes away all means able to produce an infallible assent but I take away all infallible means Then I deny his assumption I do not deny all infallible meanes I do not deny all meanes because I deny some to be infallible and I do not deny all infallible means because I deny some that he thinks infallible in both he would impose upon me the fallacie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or a particulari All means are not infallible and there may be and is other infallible meanes besides those which he supposeth and I deny The Scripture is an infallible mean to hold to this I deny the infallibilitie of Councils And then again secondly I deny a necessity of infallible assent to all points of question either part of the contradiction may consist with salvation For corroboration of his opinion about the infallibilitie of Councils he brings in afterward St. Gregory the Great 's saying I do professe my self to reverence the first four Councils as I reverence the four books of the Gospell And in like manner I do receive the fifth Council whosoever is of another mind let him be an Anathema Ans First we do not think the judgement of St. Gregory to be greater than the judgement of the four Councils if we do not think them infallible we have no cause or reason to be urged with one Gregory Secondly we also reverence the learning of that Gregory as he reverenceth the books of the Gospell if the as be taken in similitude not proportion in the quality not equality Thirdly if the opinion of St. Gregory should prevaile with me why doth not the Authority of the Fathers whom I produced for our cause and the answers I gave to his Authorities before prevaile with him Testem quem quis inducit pro se tenetur recipere contra se Fourthly let us marke his own words And I also receive the fifth Councill in like manner Now the fifth Council was that of Constantinople wherein Vigilius was condemned in his defence of the three Chapters And the Council proceeded without his consent yea and against his mind So that if St. Gregory's authoritie were authentick the cause were spoiled for so infallibilitie should not be stated in a Council with the Popes confirmation Fifthly oppose and confront Gregory with Gregory Nazianzen with the Roman and which of them shall we believe for Councils Neither doth the whole machin of our Religion tople and tumble to the ground upon my former principle as he imagined though he would presse me more strongly to shew upon what Authoritie I take Scripture by an infallible assent to be the word of God This by the way should not have been brought into question with us since we give more reverence to the Scriptures than they do and therefore are like to have a firmer faith in it to be the word of God than they The main design of my Adversary at first I suppose was to debate the faith of particular points the Scripture being supposed to be the word of God although not supposed by him to be the onely rule But therefore let me returne his own words changing the tables that the whole machin of his Religion doth tople and tumble to the ground upon his ground by pressing him to shew by what authority he takes Scripture by an infallible assent to be the word of God before he hath proved the infallibilitie of the Church His reason follows because there cannot be a more groundless ground upon which you by rejecting the infallible authority of the Church are forced to build your whole religion to wit that you by meer reading of Scripture can by its light as you discover the sun by its light discover it so manifestly to be the undoubted word of God that this discovery sufficeth to ground your infallible assent to that verity Ans First he is not surely right in this that I am forced by rejecting his way of believing Scripture to this way If he be then I am right in the choice of my principle upon my refusal of his but Mr. Chillingworth whom he blames me for differing from in this point does find as it may seem and as he himself professeth a middle way of grounding faith in the Scripture to be the word of God namely by the authoritie of universall Tradition which as any can distinguish from this way so he doth distinguish from the Pontifician
worship ye know not what If the woman was not to be ruled by the judgement of the Samaritans why is a Cobler to be ruled by the authoritie of others since simply the authoritie of the Samaritans was as good as the authoritie of others and therefore our faith must be resolved into some higher ground than the authoritie of men He goes on in his case And you give him leave after he hath perused the definitions of this Council defining God the Son to be of the self same individuall substance with his Father to examine them untill he find them resolved into the infallible rule of Scripture Ans Yes we say he may take his own liberty to do so But also we say he ought to conferre with those who are learned that he may more easily finde the sense of Scripture the advice he takes from others doth not determine his assent but disposeth it It doth point him to it but he must see it with his own sight He doth examine them and chiefly how they doe agree with that text St. John the 10. chap. 30. verse I and my Father are one on which text you afterwards confesse the infallibilitie of this definition to be chiefly grounded Ans So did St. Athanasius professe as I told him in my last rejoinder and he doth not say any thing in deniall But as to the point as being clear in Scripture there are other texts plain enough as in the first Epistle of St. John the fifth chap. the twentieth verse in his son Jesus Christ this is the true God Indeed the whole verse is for our purpose And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding that we should know him that is true And we are in him that is true in his Son Jesus Christ This is the true God He hath given us a mind that we should know Here is faith infused whereby we know him and therefore is not this faith an effect of the authoritie of the Church And this son is here said to be the true God not onely God nuncupatively as the Arrians and Socinians but the true God So Bartholomeus Petrus who makes the Supplement to Estius's Comment upon the Epistles and subjects all to the holy Roman Church Et nihil ominus etiam Filius ab Apostolo verbis expressis nominatur verus Deus parte hujus versus quarta quae sequitur hic est verus Deus So he And notwithstanding also the Son is named by the Apostle in expresse words the true God in the fourth part of this verse this is the true God Now in the examen of the conformitie of this definition with this text the Arrian Cobler by his poor understanding is easily able to see that which a wiser man would yet see sooner that he is put upon a necessitie to inquire how God the Son and his Father are one whether it be by affection onely as Arrians hold or one in the self same individuall Substance as the Council defineth Well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what then This is no other than that which stands with our duty of obedience to that precept in the first Ep. to the Thes 5.21 Prove all things hold fast that which is good And secondly were we to rest in the definition of Councils yet should we be put upon inquiry into the sense of their words which would make a trouble and a difference as the words of the Trent Council did to Soto and Viga And therefore if he could prejudice our cause with perplexities of ambiguities neither are they certain by their own Councils which sense to stand to since these learned men so eagerly combated upon different senses of the words of the Council upon the Decrees about Free-will and Predestination and though they had their interesse in the Council for learning and estimation yet it seems did not know the onely sense and true scope of the Synod as is said of them in the History of the Trent Council p. 216. My Adversary goes on And inquiring this he cals to mind that other text John the 17.21 Where Christ prayeth all his Disciples may be one thing as thou Father in me and I in thee So then let him proceed with the caution of this rule res non est subject a sermoni sed sermo rei The thing is not serviceable to the speech but the speech to the thing Here will the Cobler say because he hath been often instructed by his own Doctors Christ who said I and my Father are one thing demandeth that his Disciples may be one thing as he and his Father are one thing but he doth not demand that his Disciples may be all one thing in the self same individuall substance therefore he concludes Christ is not one thing in the self same individuall substance with his Father but one thing in affection onely as his Disciples might come to be one thing Ans But this Cobler if he had more mind to finde truth in Scripture than his own opinion might goe on and see that the Jews who were like to understand the words of Christ as observing what was said by him to them understood Christ not to speak that they were one by way of affection For because of this speech they took up stones to cast at him because he being a man made himself God as it is in the 33 ver of the 10. ch of St. John Which interpretation of his words our Saviour did not in the following verses deny although he seemed to wave that sense and yet also in effect brought it in by an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the 38 ver Secondly although if there had been no other text concerning Christ's Divinity there would not have been so clear a conclusion from the text of the Divinity of Christ yet if we compare it with other passages of the Scriptures we may well believe that sense and also if the text doth not afford that sense how shall we believe a Council when the Councill of Nice as Athanasius said urged this text thrice against the Arrians And therefore this exception against the sufficient clearnesse of Scripture in this point must be withdrawn or else they must condemne themselves because the Council of Nice determined the point not by their authority but by the text And therefore cannot the Cobler say as my Adversary prompts him false therefore is this definition of the Council which cannot be resolved into the infallible word of God in which all things necessary to Salvation as this point is are plainly set down as this place is not My Adversary first might have spoken more moderately not false is it therefore which the Council hath defined but not necessary because the sense of the words may be such when they are spoken betwixt God or him and his Disciples therefore they are such between his Father and him this is no rationall inference Duo cum idem dicunt non est idem When
he imploys in repetitions and references to the fourth chap. His repetitions have been answered in the matter his References are referred to their place Num. 6. That which follows concerning texts which he thinks are for him that the very reading of them sheweth them to be no lesse plain and clear to this purpose than those places which you cry out to be evident for the proof of every point which is necessary to salvation me thinks doth somewhat enterfair upon what he had said before that we could not understand God's free will how to mean his own words without a revelation For now those texts which they fansie for them by the very reading of them shew themselves to be as clear as those which we cry out to be so evident we say so plain So then some degree of clearness there may be in words without a revelation of the sense since God hath no mentall reservation And if they grant some clearnesse as it is necessary they must for those texts which concern the Church then surely there may be more than they grant Secondly will they say that those texts they urge for the Church are as clear for the Roman Church in point of infallibility as this proposition is whosoever believes shall be saved Dare they say it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We can prove the contrary by their own argument that about which there is more difference is not so clear there is more difference about the texts for the Church therefore those not so clear Therefore also let them no more object our differences for our differences from them prove well that their way is not plain and their differences amongst themselves prove better that their way is not plain And our differences amongst our selves do prove onely that those points wherein we differ are not plain but do not prove that those points that are necessary are not plain because in them we do not or need not to differ Thirdly are those texts for them no more plain than our texts for things necessary to salvation If not then where is the ground of their infallibility For the texts are not clear for it are they If they be then our texts for necessaries to salvation are I hope as clear then what need of a Judge infallible And why then do they not as well believe the points necessary to salvation upon account of Scripture as they do the point of infallibility Well but our texts being not clear sufficiently of themselves the authority of the Church adds clearnesse doth it Yea but this is more improperly affirmed if they do say so than they think of for the judgement of the Church is more influxive into the clearnesse of it as to us than their authority They first see the sense of the texts before they do declare it by their authority For if this be the sense because they declare it so and they do not declare it to be the sense because they see it discussively to be the sense then God inspiring the Pen-men of Scripture intended but the words of Scripture and that the Church should give us the soul the sense the Kernell of Scripture And why then did the Trent Councill make Scriptures the chief rule as they say of their proceedings if they did not determine of points and actions by their discerning the mind of God in the Scripture as to those particulars So then also if their discerning of the sense of Scripture was substrated to their definitions then the Scripture is discernible in the sense to us also Fourthly if those texts he names be no clearer than those we say which are necessary to salvation then let them never endeavour by Scripture to perswade any to their Religion For if the texts be no clearer for the Church than points in Scripture are as to necessity of salvation then surely the Argument is equall on both sides and then there is by Scripture no necessity clear of an infallible Judge But he prefers his texts in clearnesse to ours in the following words And I am sure you can bring no such evident texts for all yea or for any of these points which I have already said in this ch not to be evidently set down in Scripture though they be of prime necessity as others also which I will by and by add The use of this to me is this to say that the same was said before yet also we can note that he should have preferred the clearnesse of those texts for the Church before the clearnesse of those points which we confesse to be necessary to salvation but he prefers it before those which we either deny or question to be necessary If any one should say this were a Sophisters trick I could not tell how to deny it And yet also further we say if those texts which are for the Church are so plain then a fortiori those texts which are for points necessary must be more plain and my reason is this because these are necessary for the being of a Member of the Church invisible those for the Church onely necessary for the being of a Member of the Church visible Now there is a greater necessity of the former than there is of the latter for as before it is possible to be saved without the finding of a regular visible Church but it is not possible for any to be saved who is not a Member of the invisible Yea again he doth not speak according to the mind of Mr. Knot in saying texts for the Church are so evident for one of the qualities of the object of faith should be Ch. 6. against Dr. Pots according to him that it is obscure that so it may be capable of the obedience of faith But to end this we onely note more the slavery of the Romanist in that he is bound to be so dis-ingenuous as to hold the texts of Scripture to be so clear only for the Church which they interpret the Roman But also herein they do not differ from all other sects which they so much upbraid that texts for them are clear if any other And we have the benefit of it whom he takes to be a Sect till he shews the Contrary But the Scripture doth far more clearly set down a Command to goe to the Church for our full instruction So St. Paul was taught all things necessary for his knowledge by those few words Acts the 9.6 Goe into the City and it shall be told thee what thou must doe Ans And have they no better Arguments St. Paul was commanded to go into the City and there it should be told him what he must do therefore we must go to the City of Rome and there we shall know all things necessary to salvation So then As the Cardinall Richlieu was flattered by a great servant of his that God needed not to have extended his Providence to the lower world but he might have left that to the Governance of the Cardinall so
13. And you must pardon me if I say that which he had said before But how can I take it for full satisfaction that before I am referred to the third chap. and here we are sent back again to the place from whence he came This if we might say so is plain bo peep He hath my answer there which is yet good The Scriptures thus Profaned and by such interpretations truely discanoned as I may say are rather subject to that effect which St. Pauls Epistles according to St. Peter had with some men i. e. they are subject to be depraved by them to the perdition of their Interpreters But what is this to us And yet will they say because men are subject to deprave the Scripture therefore is Scripture subject to be depraved And after the same manner that the Scriptures may be discanoned by such interpretations so may also the Decrees of the Councils if men have a greater reverence of the Decrees and Canons of Councils than of the Holy Scriptures And if Scripture be discanoned by a false sense then Scripture is canoned by a true and so then by giving a true sense of Scripture the Church should make Scripture which yet is denied by the learnedst Pontificians And also if we must put upon Scripture the corruptions of men as he doth by a fallacy of accident then have we lesse reason to esteem of Scripture by the authority of men Whereby the way you are again to take notice c. unto it was then true To that which he says here we answer again since he will have it so that the act of wresting Scripture is damnative not by the error of the understanding but by the perversenesse of the will whatsoever the matter of that Scripture be whether necessary or not And he does well to conclude for us Consequently these places did not according to your Doctrine contain points necessary to salvation namely because they were hard It is right yet not because they were wrested they did not contain points necessary for points necessary may possibly also be wrested but rather because they were hard to be understood Points hard to be understood are more like to be wrested than points wrested hard to be understood And the perdition follows not upon the ignorance of the things not necessary but upon the depravation of the texts And therefore our allowance of some liberty of Interpretations even in hard points may not easily prove damnable First the liberty is not so much allowed as necessary Secondly the liberty is not damnable but the abuse Thirdly the allowance is not so much to hard points but things plain where the Lamb may wade Fourthly it is necessary that the people should know that which is necessary to be known it is accidentall that they should mis-interpret the text which doth not contain that which is necessary Now shall he be deprived of that which is necessary upon a contingent inconvenience which also if he hath a sober mind cannot betide him Felix periculum in necessariis Sapiens non curat de accidentalibus It was then true which I told you in another place that though the Scripture be a most right rule yet it is very commonly so crookedly applied that we stand in need of a better security of the Interpretation of it in which the very kernell of the letter doth consist than we have of the Interpretation finally stood unto made by the private judgement of our own discretion Ans My Adversary by his fallacy of accident is falling upon another question namely this whether it be not dangerous to let men have the free use of Scripture which although it seems to conclude for him yet doth not punctually conclude against me in the particular point of Controversie namely whether the Srcipture doth plainly deliver things necessary As it is said by some that some Hares when they are hotly hunted will squart before another hare to put the Hunters upon a new chase so he would start as it were another question to put me off from the prosecution of the right question But secondly we will follow this also and we say that he here grants as much as which extensively concludes against him For if the Scripture be a most right rule as he confesseth then are we to be ruled by it Let me ask why did God give us this most right rule what to be laid aside because by some it is crookedly aplied Is this a good consequence Because the authority of the Church hath been urged by Hereticks therefore we should not urge the Authority of the Church Because the Gospel doth harm to some by their corruption therefore we should not have it preached Because Dudithius the Bishop of five Churches said of the Trent Council that the Holy Ghost had nothing to do with the Council and that he was carried in a Carriers Portmantle to Trent and that the Spirit of God which moved upon the waters could not come to Trent because the waters were up therefore we must not make use of Councils for the ending of Controversies Such consequences his argumentation affords let them own these or retract their reasoning Thirdly where shall we have a better security of the Interpretation of it Let them first secure a better security of the Interpretation of it It is true if the Interpretation of a Council be compared with the Interpretation of a private judgement it is probable that the Interpretation of a Council should be better but the question is whether we can have security for faith by the Interpretation of a Council This we deny since Councils may possibly erre in the Interpretations of some texts and particularly the Trent Council did err in some Interpretations as some of the Divines therein have signified And then fourthly he doth freely or inconsiderately mistake our cause in the allowances we give to the private judgement of discretion for we do not say that we should finally stand to our private Interpretation either as to determine others thereby or to prefer our own Interpretation before that publick judgement of a Council but this we say that the sense of Scripture cannot be obtruded to us as to believe it upon their account unlesse we see good reason out of Scripture for it The private judgement of discretion hath not it self in this case as in a contrary competition to the Council but hath it self negatively and is upon the suspense till it sees Gods word for it But he knew my answer as it seems I know your answer is that it is accidentall to this rule to be misapplied and this cannot infringe the authority of Scripture Yes this was in substance my answer before But now it will not serve as my Adversary would perswade me by his distinction It doth not indeed infringe the authority of Scripture useth as God would have it used with due submission to the publick Interpretation of the Church Otherwise c. unto neither Ans He means
that the Scripture by it self alone is to decide them Ans This comes not home to the point For first we goe not upon degrees of claritude but upon infallibility Can they tell us how many degrees of claritude will make infallibility Secondly All our Controversies are not so much as all imaginable Controversies there are other Controversies imaginable besides ours Thirdly he supposeth that of us which is not true of us that we affirm the Scripture to decide our Controversies formally which we say not we say again that for things necessary to be believed there is no need of Controversie because they are plainly delivered for other Controversies there is no need as to salvation that they should be decided because they are not necessarily to be believed And also for some of their opinions they are in effect decided namely in a negative manner because they are not mentioned in Scripture and therefore percutit Dei gladius as the Father speaks the sword of God strikes them off Fourthly he is brought to a pinch he would fain have the authority of the Scripture for the infallible decision or the Church yet because the point is not so clear as to amount to our infallibility of their infallibility he puts it upon degrees of claritude But if it comes to degrees of claritude betwixt the Scripture for the Church or the Scripture for it self who shall compare and judge the Church this is the question and it is a partie And persons are partiall the Law not And would not they have men determine for the Church Yes verily and he thinks with good reason then he allows them as is observed by Mr. Chillingworth a judgement of private discretion for the Church out of Scripture but not for the Scripture out of Scripture Fifthly he differs from his own party in this for they think it demonstrable out of Scripture that the Church is with infallible authority to decide all Controversies And how else can the Roman in their Trent Confession be added to the Catholick and Apostolick Church And how did they by their Authority determine that the Latine Bible which came out first by Sextus Quintus afterwards corrected by Clement the eighth though the former by them infallible should be the Judge and Decider of all Controversies So that by the way although the Scripture in the originall be not a Decider of Controversies yet in Latine it may sed te Nos facimus Romana Deam coeloque locamus His texts of more claritude for the Church come in afterwards as he says n. 58 c. To passe by here that which is not materiall Num. 16. and also that which is spoken of here to be managed by him hereafter in other numbers of this ch which might give us an Alarum when they come nearer us He says here he might have added to other points necessary not plainly decided by Scripture that great point whether it be necessary to rebaptize those who are baptized by Hereticks And this we will not here passe by unsaluted because we give reverence to St. Austins testimony produced by him upon the point We therefore answer but with some expostulation why doth this come in here was the latter written before the former There is some mystery in it but we passe it We must answer therefore first that he mistakes the question which he is upon it is not this whether the Scripture doth plainly decide whether such a thing be necessary or not but whether it doth decide plainly that which is necessary Now here he laies it down as a question undecided by Scripture Whether it be necessary to rebaptize those who are baptized by Hereticks To determin a thing which is necessary and to determine whether the thing be necessary are surely two things the former respects the thing as in it self which part is true the latter respects the thing in modo and in order to the end either of obedience or salvation Therefore secondly we distinguish of necessary it hath relation either to duty or to salvation the former is the necessity of the precept the latter of the mean The former if supposed doth not infer the necessity of the knowledge of this point because we may be saved without the knowledge of every thing which is commanded by God by generall Repentance Otherwise no man could be saved for no man living knows every thing which is commanded therefore invincible ignorance must excuse actuall repentance Now the second necessity doth infer a neeessity of knowledge because without the knowledge of necessary means we cannot obtain our end He is therefore to prove it necessary to salvation to know which part of the Contradiction is right to rebaptize or not which he cannot do because the practice on either part is not necessary by necessity of mean And the practice on either part is not necessary by necessity of mean because then either those Churches which differed from St. Cyprian or those that held with him were in extream peril of damnation which I think they will not say Wherefore if either part be necessary to be believed the necessity is not ex vi materiae but ex vi proponendi upon the clearnesse of the proposing it Now that which is necessary to be believed in the latter kind doth not belong to our question for the question is of those things which are to be believed necessarily in order to salvation not necessarily to be believed in order to the proposall but this clear proposall is not necessary because the practice on either part is not necessary to salvation and therefore this is no necessary question And this distinction is sufficient to destroy at least the most of all his instances of this kind And thirdly my Adversary needed not as to himself to have made this a question by reason of the practice of their Church for they account us Hereticks and yet when we come over to them they do not rebaptize us And if they say it is now determined by the Church in the negative we answer it is not yet determined by the Church whether it was necessary to be determined by the Church in order to salvation for then it was necessary to salvation not to be rebaptized and it was necessary to salvation to know it the former puts St. Cyprian in danger for the evil practice the latter puts him in danger for want of necessary knowledge And therefore the former part of St. Austin's testimony hereunto is not appositly produced for the question now is not whether it be openly or evidently read in Scripture because we confesse it is not but the question is of the necessity of it to be known Let then the moment of this discourse be resolved into form thus This is necessary to be known on which part the truth stands this is not known by Scripture therefore somewhat not known by Scripture is necesry to be known we answer first we deny the syllogism because it is not
and consequently hope too Yet we may hope to make his charge nought and our faith good but we need not say any more than what hath been said whereunto he hath said as much as comes to little yet now he diverts hither We must say therefore again that this should not be a question betwixt us how we believe the Scriptures to be the word of God for this is supposed betwixt us as the subject of the question And we say that the sense of this argumentation is to as much purpose as if when we are at London we must go back again because we did not go the new way As to the Assumption then we deny it We do ground our assent to this truth upon Divine Revelation Yea moreover we return him his argument in terms and therefore they have no Divine faith so naturall it is for those to speak most who have a mind to cover their own defects They cannot ground their assent to this truth upon Divine Revelation because they ground it upon the authority of the Church for they must either have an immediate revelation that the Church is infallible or else they must ground it upon the general sum of revealed truth and that is the Scripture for as for Tradition that which is of a particular Church is of no weight as to this businesse and universall Tradition must go upon account of the Church now then if they say that they have a Revelation immediate that the Church is infallible in proposing those books to be Canonical they make that to be of use to them which they deny to us who have as good reason to say that we may as well have an immediate revelation that the Scripture is the word of God but if they ground their faith upon some texts of Scripture which concern the Church then they must believe the Scripture for it self So then either they must come to us or else indeed they have no Divine faith And therefore had he no cause to be offended with that I said that the Canonical books are worthy to be believed for themselves as we assent to prime principles in the habit of Intelligence To this he says in a parenthesis And so is the book of Toby and Judith as well as these But doth he say this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and doth he not then find fault with the antient Church who did not as hath been shewn give equall reverence to these as to the books Canonical If they be as worthy to be believed as the books Canonical then they erred in not receiving them with equall belief And if they erred then our Adversaries are lost And now as for our assent to the Canonicall books in the manner of assent to prime principles by the help of the Spirit of God they are not like to prosper in the abuse of it First it is to be noted that we are not now to deal with one that denies the Scripture to be the word of God for to an unbeliever hereof we should use other arguments rationally to induce him to a good opinion hereof but when we are demanded by a Christian what is it that grounds our faith of Scripture one would think we might say that we are resolved to a Divine faith hereof by the Spirit of God disposing our assent to them as of themselves worthy to be believed which is the reason of assent to prime principles And therefore secondly we do not say that our assent to the Canonical books is by a naturall light as our assent to prime principles but that our assent is made to them by way of Intelligence through the Spirit the light of the Spirit as to shew us the Scripture to be worthie of belief for it selfe is supernaturall but when that comes we believe it as we do prime principles not by discourse but because it is credible of it self Faith herein bears more proportion to intelligence than to science because we do not in faith use a reason to the act as we do in science And this is intimated in the common reading of that text of the Prophet Si non crediderint non intelligent if they will not believe they shall not understand so then since faith is a supernaturall habit as the School-men the Spirit of God doth infuse it into us as being an habit infused as they speak and this doth dispose us to believe the Scripture to be the word of God as by him indited And one would think that it is a better ground to believe it to be the word of God because he saith so than to believe it because the Church saith so and it is more about because I cannot believe it upon the account of the Church but because God gives testimony of the Church and why cannot we then believe God teste seipso So all the assent we give to them is made upon the veracity of God which is the center in which all lines of Scripture do meet and terminate Therefore might he have spared that which follows Have you brought all the infallibility of Christian Religion unto this last ground to be trampled by the Socinians Ans First I do not see what reason we have to lay the foundation of Religion so as to please the Socinian One who maintained the Protestant cause was prejudiced by suspition of being inclined to Socinianism and I am now found fault with for not providing for their satisfaction in our principles Well but secondly I do not finde that Socinians do abhor this tenure of Scripture And thirdly they to be sure do trample upon the authority of their Church as infallible And therefore this is to be returned home to the Romanist And also upon the former grounds might he have omitted what follows from doe you expect unto all that you believe for although the object is to be believed for it self as a prime principle yet is there not a naturall light for it that comes supernaturally and therefore faith is a supernatural habit But if they would be accounted such rationall men in the faith of Scripture they do deserve from the Socinian a negative reverence by a positive favour to them But again how far is that which I have said different from the determination of Ratisbon in their fourth session Scripturae dicuntur perfectae quoad perfectionem eredibilitatis et exactissimae veritatis The Scriptures are said perfect as in respect of the perfection of credibility and most exact truth And the perfection of credibility belongs to the first principles which are indemonstrable And as those principles have themselves immobiliter unto Sciences as Aquinas so the Scriptures have themselves unto Divinity Here we must rest And if every one doth not believe them to be the word of God upon this account this doth not derogate from the credibility of the object thus we say that the Scriptures are the infallible word of God is evident of its own self needing no further proof for the requiring
Church not of the Church because the testimony thereof is resolved into Scripture of which the question is yea if the testimony of the Church were infallible it must be infallibly proved by the Scripture and also that it is our rule of faith But thus we see the importunity of the Pontifician for their cause if we should say we resolve our faith of the Scriptures into the testimony of the Church they would never ask us a reason of our faith but when we say we resolve it into the internall testimony of the Spirit for our own private assurance they will not let us sit down with that but will demand a proof thereof although the testimony of the Church if it were the formall reason of our faith must be infallibly made good to us by the internall testimony of the Spirit but that which they would have us rest in for the Church we may not rest in for the Scripture And yet also have we other arguments from Scripture it self which have more moment in them unto the belief of Scripture than the meer testimony of the Church as Dr. White notes in the twenty sixth p. of the way to the true Church which is worthy to be perused also upon this account that there are severall testimonies collected even of Papists for the belief of Scripture without dependence upon the Church as of Canisius Bellarmin Biet Gregorie of Valence Stapleton some whereof we have quoted allready So then by my Adversaries own argument if we need not depend upon the Church for belief of Scripture then not for other points of faith The thirtieth Article hath nothing in it considerable but for us first that he saith it to be that most fundamentall Article that such and such books be infallibly God's word So then if it be the most fundamentall article then it is also fundamentall to the Church otherwise it is not that most fundamentall article but the Church must be the most fundamentall article And if it be fundamental to the Church then we resolve our faith in the highest principle and that which is primo primum and the Papists resolve themselves into that which is at best but secundo primum Our faith then being rooted in Scripture we can give a check to their vaunting of the priviledge of the Church as St. Paul did to the Jew but if thou boastest thou dost not bear the root but the root thee so the Church doth not bear the Scripture but the Scripture it And secondly we note in his thirtieth number what he saith Take the Church without any infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost and their authority is but humane We assume this infallible assistance is not yet proved and till it be proved the authority is but humane and yet doe we not scoff at the authority of the Church as he chargeth us but do make good use of it without infallibility And thirdly we might note that if some other had the answering of these papers he might tell them that they are mendicants of the question for first here they say that they ground this point upon the authority of the Church as being infallible And then again she hath an infallible authority which we account a fansie and yet again this infallibility alone must be that which groundeth not this perswasion but this infallible assent And yet again take the Church without any infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost and their authority is but humane These things so nearly belonging and essentially to the question are to be proved not supposed yet all must be supposed by them that so they might not seem to run at the ring and hit it as we may speak only the last hath a truth in it but also it supposeth in the drift a supposition for their use But at the last we have an appearance of an argument We have no other infallible ground left us but the authority of the Church assisted by the Holy Ghost since the Scripture hath no where revealed which books be Scripture which not Ans To this we say three things first that the argument is no way cogent because there is no necessity of either if we can be assured by the Holy Ghost that these books be Canonicall And if we cannot how did the Church at first assure it self that they were Canonicall So then Omne reducitur ad principium as Aquinas's rule is Secondly unlesse they prove the authority of the Church better they had better have left this out for otherwise there is no ground of faith unlesse our ground be admitted if this be a true Dis-junctive proposition that either the Scripture must set down which books be Canonicall which not or else the Church in the proposall must be infallible And yet if the Scripture should have set down which books were Canonicall it must be resolved whether that book wherein they were set down was Canonicall by the Holy Ghost also Then thirdly if the disjunctive be not true then his discourse is false if it be true in the proposition then we assume against them that the Scripture hath no where revealed whether the Church is infallible and therefore there is no other way to know it to be infallible but by it selfe So then it must prove the testimony of the H. G. by it self and if it can then may we prove the testimony of the Holy Ghost concerning Scripture by it selfe if not where will they set up In the 31. Num. he would squat Num. 31. and deceive the chase by a distinction which will not stay him from running round in the proving of Scripture by the Church and the Church by Scripture He sayes No Sir you never heard me give this reason unlesse it were when I spake to one who independently of the Church do professe himself to believe the Scripture to be God's word as you do And this is the effect of this Number for his defence and of those Divines who do not deale thus in proving the Church by the Scripture with all those who have not admitted the Scripture as infallible for they first prove the authority of the Church and that independently of the Scripture to be infallible Answ This covering is too short and indeed not sound for I am not bound to take notice how they prove it to others but how they prove it to me If they prove it thus to me then by their owne confession they are included in a circle And they prove it thus to me because I hold the Scripture to be God's word independently of the Church and so he saith of me as you do Secondly whereas he sayes If I be a Scholar I may know that their Divines do not answer so when they are put upon the question Why do you believe the Church I do answer that for my part I never pretended to be a Scholar as they do signanter I have neither head nor heart nor body nor books for the Controversies but yet this I
not calling him so had contradicted him But then the supposed differences are about Circumstances by his own confession What is this to matter of faith in necessary doctrine which is the center point of the question unto which all the lines should be referred and therfore he had done nothing if he had done more in this kinde And I thinke we are as sure of the right in such varieties as they And also he might have remembred that rule of Saint Cyrill of Jerusalem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let things of curiositie not be spoken of in the Church But the sense of them is that we must be Papists or no Christians But if they were Turks we might say more And where nothing is necessarie any thing is abundant He comes next to my last shift as he calleth it that the people doe fix their faith upon that which is interpreted not upon the interpretation To this he objects thus you may fix your faith upon a lie for how know you whether the thing delivered you by the interpreter be Gods word or the interpreters own word specially when we know not who this interpreter was how skilful how faithful how true a copie he used Ans To the confirmation of what he here objects against were added distinct reasons or reasonable distinctions These he saies nothing to but what cavil he can make against the conclusion he is willing to without answer to my reasons 2. We believe that our people can better believe the word of God in a translation than their people without a translation for the people must believe their Church without the knowledge of any translation Let them make their faith good without a translation and we shall make our faith as good in a translation And I think our people may as well credit the Authority of our Church in a translation as their people may credit the Authority of their Church without a translation 3. By their own Argument they are more in the dark for if the perswasive of our faith be the certainty who this interpreter was how skilful how faithful how true a copy he used because they do not know who the interpreter of St. Matthews Gospel was into Greek how skilful how faithful how true a copy he used how can they believe it And therefore we return him his own words how know you that this translation doth not conveigh their own fansies in the place of Gods word Do they know it because their fansie of their Church tells them that this is Gods word Thus then they may have a double phantastical assurance and nothing else This they are forced to hold sufficient Yet how doth this agree with their own acknowledgements that the vulgar latin as to this is also a translation and yet as they must confess that it is so far a true translation as it doth agree with the original They cannot resolve their faith into the original never proposed to them Into the translation they say they do resolve it And this must be the written word What written word is that which is neither translation nor original For the Greek is neither their translation nor their original And yet surely the Greek is more like to be the original than the latin for if there was no Hebrew copie extant as they say then was the Latin a translation out of the Greek And if they say the Greek was not the original then the Latin is a translation without an original which is oppositum in apposito So then when all comes to all we are as well setled in the tenure of our assurance as to the Gospel of St. Matthew as they or more because we stand to that which they have but a translation of And they have but the Latin Church for their Latin we have the universal Church for the Greek But forsooth they believe their Church to be infallible we do not believe the Church to be infallible But what then if the authority of the Church were crescent according to the opinion of the recipient then the Scripture had not been the word of God unless men had thought so And then opinion would make faith because it would make infallibility As then they must say that their Church was assured by the Holy Ghost for so the termes of their Synod run Haec sacrosancta Oecumenica generalis Synodus in spiritu sancto legitime congregata that their Latin translation i◠if it be at all authentique so may we ultimately believe the Gospel of St. Matthew to be in the matter of it authentique For if there be not sufficient assistance of the spirit of God to Christians severally as to necessity of Salvation how did the Christians do before there was ever a general Council What is added hereabouts might have been spoken without Sarcasmes or might have been left out We can know which of those so many Greek Copies is the onely true one as well as they And a clown will be as able to understand which is the best English Translation as if there were such difference as well as with them he can understand which is a right General Council or which was in the right as to the varieties in the Latine Sixtus Quintus or Clement the eighth And though they cannot confer the Translation with the Original No more can the Roman People compare their Translation with the Originals and yet Bellarmine as before saies in some cases we must have recourse to the Originals But did not Xavier convert the Infidels yes they will say So then And did he not preach that which is in the Bible Yes they will say And did not they believe Yes they will say Now then how was this Faith wrought in them By the Spirit of God they will say or they must say For they could not compare that which was said by him with the Originals or with the Doctrine of the Church So then our people can believe without conferring a Translation with the Originals as well as theirs And they know who said Si fides in doctos selos caderet nihil esset pauperius Deo And again Surgunt indocti rapiunt coelum c. as the Father The very neck then of this point may be thus resolved In the order of credibles their first Proposition is The Church is infallible Our first Proposition is The Scripture is the Word of God Now their Proposition is grounded in Authority or else is believed by its own light Not by its own light for then the Scripture may be believed so which they deny Then it is grounded in Authority That either Humane or Divine Humane Authority cannot make Faith No Divine Authority but either that of Scripture or internal by the Holy Ghost Not by Scripture then that Proposition of theirs is not the first Then by the Holy Ghost and then by the same way we believe the Scripture to be the Word of God as they believe the Church to be infallible And
have been damned notwithstanding absolute necessity knowes no dispensations But therefore he produceth a Text for absolute necessity St. Iohn the 3.5 Except a man be borne of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdome of heaven Ans If we compare this verse with the third we need not make any other construction then of a necessity of being born from above Neither is it likely that Christ would have spoken no otherwise to Nicodemus of baptism had he meant it so And Ferus though he speaks of this sense ad literam yet hath he other senses thereof And if it be compared with the other Text St. Matthew 3.11 you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire as that Text is to be understood by an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so may this also notwithstanding the order of the words But 2. Dato non concesso that it is to be understood of Baptismal water yet the Rhemists upon the place do confess that in two cases Baptismal water is not necessary Namely in the case of martyrdome and if they have a desire of it but are prevented necessarily by death And the reason thereof is sufficient because God hath not bound his grace in respect of his own freedome to the Sacraments and so Ferus upon the place Deus enim non alligavit potentiam suam Sacramentis c. God hath not tied his own power to the Sacraments By his ordinate will indeed he gives grace by the Sacraments But nevertheles he can give it without the Sacrament Let them then tell me why Infants may not have rem Sacramenti without the seale as if God should have no favour for Infants because they cannot be qualified for the priviledge Let then the Rhemists and Ferus be compurgators for the pernicious doctrine of mine as he calls it And now whatsoever testimony he produceth of the necessity of baptism unles St. Austin's as to Infants they will stand very well with my termes in their ordinary sense which doth not contradict an ordinary necessity of it to Infants but again that all the Fathers were of this opinion I can deny I except Tertullian And St. Austin for those of age holdes but an ordinary necessity as appears in his 4. b. De Bapt. Contra Donat. 23. ch This ordinary necessity I stand for He himself intends no more by his testimonies Dr. Tayler's and others and therefore he absolves me himself but I cannot absolve him from ignorance in the Elench This doth not contradict me who do dispute now against an absolute necessity which he must maintain or else in this he comes short of his design And also that that allowance of baptism of Infants after it be done doth not inferre an absolute necessity of their being damned in the judgment of the Fathers if they were not Baptized if they will take Mr. Hookers opinion for all let them consult him in his 5. b. 33. p. where he saith I know there are many sentences found in the books and writings of the antient Fathers to prove both Ecclessiastical and Moral defects in the Ministers of Baptism a bar to the heavenly benefit thereof Now in Lay-men I trow there are Ecclesiastical defects for there is a defect in not being Ecclesiastical And therefore whether others mistake the Fathers either in the point of fact or in the reason of that allowance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But he gives me a Syllogism which we will not neglect because it is very rare with him He disputes upon my distinction of necessity thus This precept is necessarily to be fulfilled this precept is not plainly set down in Scripture therefore all necessary points are not plainly set down in Scripture This hath the face but not the form of a Syllogism But to pass that we answer therefore that this Syllogism doth not conclude contradictorily to the state of the question which is whether all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture Now all that is necessary to be done is larger then all that is necessary to be done unto Salvation Though all things necessary to be done unto Salvation are necessary to be done yet all that is necessary to be done is not necessary to be done unto Salvation The former are necessary necessitate medii the latter necessitate praecepti Now the knowledg of the former is simply necessary the knowledg of the latter is not so necessary Whatsoever is known to be praecepted is to be necessarily done but whatsoever is praecepted is not necessary to be known So that also his Syllogism was peccant in the fallacie of the consequent He followes me then your Answer will not helpe you out here whatsoever is necessarily inferred from the Scriptures is binding in the vertue of the principles why so because he saies because you cannot shew that this precept given to the parents is necessarily inferred out of Scripture So now he is upon the minor of the former Syllogism he would then prove it by a negative Induction Not out of the Institution of our Saviour for he also instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist not necessary for Infants Ans first this is no argument it doth not follow from the denial of one species to another because he did not institute the Eucharist as necessary for infants threfore he did not institute the Sacrament of baptism as necessary for Infants 2. they know there is not the same reason for the Institution of the Eucharist for Infants as for the Institution of baptism For this is administred to the child without its own faith the other is administred upon faith to confirmation 3. If they will be ruled by tradition and the authority of the Church the Eucharist was accounted also as necessary for Infants Now that tradition came from Christ as his institution or not if it did then there is some reason for baptism to Infants if not how shall we believe tradition or the authority of the Church He proceeds not out of substitution to Circumcision for so it should not be necessary to women To be even with them The high Priest was only of males the Pope succeeds the high Priest therefore the Popedome was not competible to Ioane some of them would fain have somewhat for woman to be proportionable to Circumcision of males towards the taking away of original sinne which should be an object of tradition But as the unmarried was included in the parent so the woman included under her husband as to this Yet such another argument we have then it should be necessary only for those of the Iewish nation As if Circumcision was inioyned to the Iew upon the quatenus of the nation and not as they were members of the Church under the same Covenant with Christians as to the substance thereof and therefore Eusebius saies of some of those under the law that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they were reall Christians or in
effect Christans though not in denomination That which followes was cast in by me ex abundanti and not as such a decretory argument namely besides what may be supposed by the baptism of whole families And therefore he needed not to have said it is no evident consequence It was never intended for such Valeat quantum valere potest And yet if it be as probable or more that in all those families complexively there were some at least if but one or two Infants this consequence I think I may say is better then any they have given us to prove their infallibility At the end of this number he saies I insist not upon the authorities I alledged out of St. Austin St. Chrys because I deal with one who little regards authority confessed to be the Fathers Ans He might first have answered what I said to his citation of St. Austin but it seems by his neglect either that the Fathers are not for him or he not for the Fathers or indeed both and the latter because the former He is not for the Fathers because they are not for him And let them consider that of St. Austin in his 4. b. de Bap. contra Don. 28. ch Tamen veraciter conjicere possumus quid valeat in parvulis baptismi Sacramentum ex circumcisione carnis quam prior populus accepit Notwithstanding we may truly guesse what the Sacrament of Baptism does avail in infants out of the circumcision of the flesh which the former people received And Bellarmin must think Scripture good against Anabaptists but not for us against them who make better use of it as a tradition N. 62. And now to make an end of his long Chap. as he saies himself and I say so too but it might have been made shorter by him by halfe he saies he concludes as I would have him namely that these points were and ought to be determined by the Church upon necessity of Salvation He saies now This I prove by this argument This point and all the former are necessary to be believed with an infallible assent but we cannot believe any point with an infallible assent unless it be determined by infallible authority And the authority of the Scripture hath not determined these points then since no other infallible authority can be found on Earth if we deny the authority of the Church to be infallible her authority must needs be infallible Ans after a long chap. to make his word good he makes as long an argument which might have been put into two lines But part of his book was to be length But we answer in short first to the major proposition if he meanes when they are believed they are to be believed with an infallible assent we grant it or when they are clearely proposed are so to be believed we grant it but if he means it thus that this point and all the former are necessary to be believed with an infallible assent upon necessity of Salvation it is denied And he hath not nor can prove it 2. As to his assuming that the authority of the Scriptures hath not determined these points we say first that so farre as they are necessary they are determined in Scripture And 2. they are not so clearly determined in Scripture because they are not so necessary And yet we may say as St. Austin in such a case about intellectuall vision lib. 12 de gen ad literam cap. 25 Aliud est errare in his quae videt aliud errare quia non videt We do not erre in seing them in Scriptures but we do erre because we do not see them To end then Scotus proposeth this question As Mr. Hooker notes utrùm cognitio supernaturalis necessaria viatori sit sufficienter tradita in Sacra Scriptura whether supernaturall knowledg necessary to a Travailler be sufficiently delivered in the Holy Scripture and he concludes affirmatively And so may we 3. And for overplus if these points were necessary to be referred to the determination of the Church we could easily dato non concesso remove them from the Roman Court and try them by the universal Church of all places and times with which universal Church the Roman is not converted and by which it is not like to be converted CHAP. IV. The Church is not an infallible Iudge The first Number is a Preface depending upon hopes of the former discourse But to this we say nothing save only that they shall never be rewarded for such hope unless they can prove their word to be the Word of God FIrst those words Matthew 16.19 spoken to St. Peter upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it allow the Church a security from ever admitting any doctrine so pernicious that the gates of hell may prevaile against her Ans first though these words were spoken to St. Peter yet it doth not hence follow that they were spoken of St. Peter exclusively to the rest And then the Fathers as before understood it of his faith not of his person and of his faith objectively not subjectively And then 3. this respects not only the Church repraesentative but the Church formall against which principally the gates of hell do not prevaile and so the words runne handsomly for the Church that the words allow the Church security from ever admitting any doctrine so pernicious that the gates of hell may prevaile against her And therefore upon these considerations we flatly deny to him the following words that this promise made to the Church is that which mainely makes for my purpose and surely that which follows makes for us and may be a fourth answer to the former words whether the Church be built upon St. Peter and his successours or upon the faith of St. Peter is not the thing I chiefely aime at my aime is to find a Church built on a rock so strong that no errour shall ever overthrow it So then if we assume that the invisible Church is such we are agreed Only my adversary seems to have more mind to retreat then to retract But my adversary will have it to be understood of the representative Church because he saies he is now assured the Church shall never be a nest of errours idolatrous superstitious wickedly assuming the authority of an infallible Tribunal without sufficient warrant all or any of those things would bring her to the gates of hell they being all damnable impieties Ans Now we shall see that this makes not for him He was for the Roman Church was he not And yet will not here meddle how this concerns the Roman Church then how doth this make for him In the former treatise of his this Text was meant of St. Peter and his successours and now he will not meddle with what concernes St. Peter or his successours Will these things here be reconciled till Tishby comes 2. This makes for me not only that he is not willing as
had been convenient that there had been no Scripture upon this consideration And how should they prove the Authority of the Church without Scripture Well but take his words in their ordinary sense and what kinde of argument will this be Even now when we have Scripture and Traditions therefore now Traditions are now as necessary or more then when there was no Scripture Nay they will seem to be less necessary when notwithstanding them we have more divisions How then shall these divisions be remedied It may be by more traditions What New traditions oppositum in apposito But in the next words he speaks out All divisions commonly caused by misinterpretation of the Scriptures to which inconvenience they were not subject before all Scripture was written And therefore in this respect there is now after the writing of the Scriptures a greater necessity then ever of Traditions Ans So then he hath now commented upon the former words and his sense is plain that had we not had Scripture we should have had less need of Traditions First we had thought the Learned men of their Church had devised Traditions not because we had Scripture but because Scripture was wanting in the matter of necessary doctrine And so he himself telles us presently after that since part of the Canon is lost we must say there is use of Traditions And yet now we have more need of Traditions because Scripture is written But it may be he will say there is more need of Traditions to clear the interpretations of Scripture Yea but then he should mean by Traditions Traditive interpretations of Scripture as they are called But are not these lost too For who is there can give us any account of them And as for other Traditions we are never a whit the better he hath told us before since notwithstanding we have them we have a perpetuall succession of horrible divisions opening still wider wider Let them remember that of Nâ—lus to accuse Scripture is to accuse God 2. Are the divisions necessary in points necessary If he means so it is flatly denied If in other points it is not to the question principal 3. A quatenus ad omne valet consequentia if we be bound to Tradition as such we are bound to all and yet all Traditions they have not kept 4. Traditions doe not lessen divisions about interpretation of Scripture for one division is whether Traditions have any ground in Scripture And he may know that he hath named Texts to this purpose and because there are differences about Traditions therefore by his argument we should not be ruled by them as indeed they do not order themselves by them They keep Tradition in the controversie for the use of the Church not in practice as he said Antiquitatem semper crepant novi indies vivunt and we must let goe the Scripture in controversie and practice for the use of Tradition and the Church they and their Fathers have troubled the waters of Scripture for the cheif Fisher Let them let their Traditions alone and they will see their discourse is a non causa Then he repeats importunately the uses of Traditions but not my refutation And he speaks of Traditions of such matter as we have in Scripture which is beside the mark we are about Traditions in their sense of that matter which is not in Scripture equally to be believed to Scripture which should prove the insufficiency of Scripture and the necessity of them This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore much he saies to this purpose is like the drift of snow which makes an heap but will not bear one up from sinking in it Yet I must note his wit in that he saies that God must purposely by a miracle have infringed the course of nature if the former Traditions of the Church should grow then to lose their sufficiency in order to the same effect when they were strengthened by so great an Authority as that of the sacred writers was How little in this is there of a sober soul As if the matter of Tradition was written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to confirm the authority of delivering it by orall Tradition Doth it not appear in Eccles History that the matter of the New Testament was written that it might be more certain and firm in the minds of men It seems then that the looser way by Tradition was not so sure and standing litera scripta manet Secondly If there be so great an Authority of the sacred writers surely we may make more use of what they wrote to confirm Traditions Adeone pudorem cum pudicitia perdiderunt as he said that the Authority of the sacred writers should be imployed as it were onely to serve Tradition Thirdly The Authority of the sacred Writers did rather confirm the truth of them than the use for why were they written if Traditions were necessary after they were written as such Therefore fourthly He concludes but sufficiency of them in order to the effect but this is not effectual to his purpose If he did conclude necessity of them after the writing this would be somewhat but then there would be more in the conclusion than is in the premises and yet surely all were nothing to the state of the question because we make no question of such Traditions Again he pleadeth losse of the Canon upon which he thinks Tradition should revive Ans That we have spoken of sufficiently before that the supposal doth not inferre insufficiency of the Canon and therefore doth not inferre necessity of Traditional matter beside what is written And also is there yet notwithstanding the losse of some part of Scripture enough remaining to confirm Traditions yes they will say Then God it seems hath taken more care for Traditions than Salvation there is enough for Traditions yet in Scripture not for Salvation Well but again there is enough in Scripture to confirm all Traditions is there not If there be then there is enough for Salvation or else there was not enough in Traditions Because they will say Scripture hath confirmed all Traditions to the Jew namely And then if there was enough to the Jew for Salvation in the Old Testament which was adaequate to Tradition then much more have we enough for Salvation by the New Testament and therefore is there no need of any Tradition beside the Canon Then he returns to an enarration of the use of Traditions even after writing which is of no use to them but to us because here he produceth several Texts for Traditions in the same notion as 2. Thes 2. Gal. 1.8 Tim. 2.2 2. and herein he prevaricates in his own cause For if these Texts be meant of such Traditions which were afterwards written in the matter of them they are so understood as we would have them to be understood and they are not pertinent to the question about Traditions beside Scripture in the matter of them Secondly Whereas he speaks that these
the Apostles was it not Then nothing hinders but that it may be communicated to every of the Popes successively which yet it may be he declines the affirmation of And if it be not communicated to every of the Preists how shall the people be secured from errour by them so as they cannot erre But if they do say infallible assistance is communicated to any immediately then may they see reason for what I said that infallible assistance is immediate or if all infallible assistance be not imediate let them shew another species of infallible assistance To me this argument is good Apostolical assistance was immediate infallible assistance is Apostolical therefore infallible assistance is immediate No question is made of the proposition Nor can they make any doubt of the assumption because they urge as much assistance to the Church now as is Apostolical Therefore had my Adversary reason to interpret me of such infallible assistance which needs no instructions for I know no infallible assistance that doth as appeares by the argument Neither doth his following Instance of the Apostolical Council in the fifteenth of the Acts evince the contrary Though their determinations were not immediately inspired in regard of time or of debate Yet since this debate was not to them necessary how can this make a new species of infallible assistance Likely therefore this Council was in this sort managed by them to be a precedent and example to other Councils which should not have infallible assistance to determin presently and prophetically as soon as the question is proposed And if those who have infallible assistance do use discourse this doth not conclude an infallible assistance which is not immediate He that can prove the creation of the world by principles of Scripture in way of Faith or in order to Faith may prove the same conclusion also by principles of reason in order to science But then it is said in the preface it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us Ans To this I say fine praejudicio melioris sententiae that these words do not cogently inferr an infallible assistance of proper name actuated for they may bear that account in respect to the discourse they made by the effects of the Holy Ghost and former declarations And this may appear by that of St. Paul 1. Cor. 17. vlt. she is happier if she so abide according to my judgment and I think also that I have the spirit of God This judgment was not given by infallible assistance because by no inspiration and yet also it doth refer to the spirit of God And according to this proportion might be said it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us and yet those conclusions might not proceed from the Holy Ghost by way of infallible assistance And so farr in other Councils the definitions may be said to be by the Holy Ghost as they are drawn out of principles of Scripture which the Holy Ghost did inspire the Pen-men of it in Yea 2. Since the meeting of them in that Council was but upon convenience in case of Scandal what such necessity was there for that infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost So then let them take it how they will either those determinations were not made by them who were infallible by an infallible assistance and then is not this instance to their purpose or if it was then are they to prove equall assistance to all General Councils otherwise extraordinaries make no species And I am sure the Trent Council hath not credited such assistance as Stapleton and Bellarmin would claim from the Apostolical Council to all General Councils N. 27. Here he would make up the breach which was made upon his strong hold for infallibility in Councils by that place of St. Athanasius as holding the consubstantiality of the Son of God to be the word of God upon the Authority of the Council This was slighted He would repair it but it will not stand That Text upon which the Nicene Council builded their determination is made good ch 2. num 4. In the judgment of the Council it did more then probably determin the Controversie And if he thinks otherwise he doth not believe the Council and therefore not their infallibility His discourse is nothing He cannot determin it Gods word with relation to a Text probable in Scripture therefore he doth it with relation to the infallibility of the Councils authority Well is here all then turne the tables He cannot determin it Gods will with relation to the infallibility of the Councils Authority therefor he did it with relation to the infallible Authority of Scripture Doth he say that the Council holdes it upon account of their Authority or of the Scripture then which is it more likely it should be held upon The Church or the Scripture But let them speake thus when the question is granted Another answer of mine he doth as good as confess that St. Athanasius did not hold it upon the Council because he held it before Here he distinguisheth indeed He held it so in order to himself who was convinced that his interpretation was conformable to the antient doctrin of the Church yet in order to others c. Ans He was not Pope was he And yet St. Basil speaks so highly of him as if he had spoken so of the Pope we should have heard of it but if he was not Pope what have we to do to the holding it in order to others He was quoted for his own judgment was he not Then this distinction is impertinent And besides if he was convinced that his interpretation was conformable to the antient doctrine of the Church he was convinced that their doctrine was conformable to the true sense of Scripture if not why should he say that the Council urged Scripture to the Arrians if he was then he held it before upon that account Then again he toucheth upon the Council of Ariminum saying that I contend that Council as well to be believed for it self as the Council of Nice and you think c. Ans what I spake by way of interrogation why not is not yet answered by him in the reason of it He wonders that I should urge this Council in way of compare to the contrary But this gives no satisfaction as to my reason that exceptions it seemes were not so availeable against the Council because St. Austin made no mention of them but referred the point betwixt them to Scripture This Council of Ariminum was not so esteemed as the rest but what then from whence did this disesteem proceed from the illegality it seems no for then St. Austin had had a plea against it without waving the Authority of the Nicene Council And surely St. Austin had a very mean esteem of the Authority even of the Nicene Council if having a just exception against the Council of Ariminum he would not pleade it and so bring in the Authority of the Nicene
Faith in the Gospel And this is illustrated by the Samaritanes beleeving Christ through the testimony of the woman but when they came to Christ and saw him They said unto the woman we believe no more for thy saying for we have heard and seen that he indeed is the Saviour of the world the Christ John 4.42 So Saint Austin might be moved by the voyce of the Church to give an ear to the Truth of the Gospel and yet was settled in the Beleef of it from its self by the Spirit of God When he did beleeve the immediate cause of his Divine Faith was from the Gospel by the Spirit of God although before he did beleeve he was moved to think well of the Gospel by the authority of the Church So he did not belive the Gospel by the authority of the Church as a Theological principle but as an outward mean and help thereunto For the authority of the Church could not by its testimony of the Gospel make it properly credible because the testimony of the Church is to be made true by it And if it be not true in it self then the testimony is false So that before we know whether the Gospel be true we know not whether the testimony of the Church be true As also we cannot tell how to beleeve that the Church should alwayes give a true testimony as you suppose in every point but by the Scripture And therefore there is no ground or rest for Faith but in the Scripture Since if we beleeve the Church because the Scripture gives testimony of it and then the Scripture because the Church gives testimony thereof we must first beleeve the Scripture before we beleeve the Church Therefore we must terminate our Faith in the Scripture and if we do beleeve it beleeve it for it self it being the first credible Fifthly Look to the end of that chapter and there after he had disputed subtilly he doth conclude soberly But God forbid that I should not beleeve the Gospel and then concludes against his Adversary from thence as the rule of the difference betwixt them for Beleeving that saith he I do not find how to beleeve you c. And that the Scripture is the Rule he went by you may see in his 32. chapter against Cresconius whether let me if you please refer you for brevitie None can overcome S. Austin but S. Austin And therefore I need not say any thing to the second testimony which is taken out of him against Cresconius Yet observe Although of this there is no example certainly brought forth out of the canonical Scriptures yet also we keep the Truth of the Holy Scriptures in this when we do that which hath pleased the whole Church saith he Namely in that which is not a ruled case in Scripture as the question was about the Truth of the Baptisme of Hereticks It seems then if it had been determined in Scripture there had been an end of it that because the Holy Scripture cannot deceive saith he And this property absolute belongs to it not to humanitie Whosoever doth fear to be deceived by the obscurity of the Question may ask counsel touching it of the Church whom without doubt the Scripture it self doth shew saith he First here is an obscure question about practice so are not all points Some are clear in Scripture and yet the Propsition is universall that we must believe every thing by the proposal of the Church as if we must beleeve nothing but what the Church defineth and whatsoever it doth define that we must beleeve Secondly VVe should ask counsel onely which doth not suppose an absolute determination Thirdly which Church the Scripture doth without doubt shew then the Church is to be proved by Scripture again And without doubt doth shew but doth not shew to be alwayes without doubt and infallible Fourthly he afterwards goeth about to prove it against him by testimonies out of Scripture But behold yet again in a third Testimony of Saint Austin No peaceable man will be against the Church Answer Saint Austin is again welcome I say so too and shall anon end with the whole Sentence And yet once more in a fourth Testimony Saint Austin It is of most insolent madness to dispute against that which the whole Church holdeth VVe answer VVe say so too in things of indifferency which every particular Church hath power in for it self and the Catholicke Church for all And yet all Catholick practices are not now observed by the Church of Rome as for one Infant Communion But according to the Father if the Authority of the Scripture doth prescribe which of these is to be done it is not to be doubted that we should do so as we read In such things then which are defined by Scripture we know what we should do intuitively to Scripture without asking counsel of the Church As certainly I may believe that Jesus is the Christ that he that believeth shall be saved immediately out of Scripture and not upon the Churches proposal And now I have delivered you from your fear of my rejecting the Fathers Surely we should love the Fathers though they were our Enemies and we have no reason to fear them when they are our Friends Therefore if you please to give me leave so far let me say as Nilus the Archbishop of Thessalonica as the Book bears title said in his first Book about the Primacy of the Pope or the difference between the Greek and Latin Churches It is very unreasonable that you who have not the Fathers for your examples should of your selves understand that which is better and we who have the Fathers should not Afterwards in your Reply you come to upbraid me with Devotion to modern men But this Belief of yours concerning me is not well grounded we delight not our selves in being Servants to Men in matters of Faith What is true we like in any what is not true we do not like in any In Divine writings we take all for there we consider not so much what is said as who saith in Humane Writings we pick for we consider not who speaketh but what is said agreeable to the Scriptures Therefore with them we deal as Saint Austin with Saint Cyprians authority in the forenamed chapter against Cresc What we find in them which is agreeable to the Canonical Scripture we receive with commendation what doth not with their leaves we leave But to make as short work with them as I can I answer first as many testimonies and more clear might be found in them against you I hope if those testimonies be for you let one be set against the other And if you say I should be moved by them because they are ours I answer Secondly If they agree with the sense of the Fathers you cannot condemn them if they do not agree we do Thirdly It is possible to be Even with you in the same kind by a retaliation of Pontificians against you But Fourthly I could
your self See how you now differ from your selfe Before the ground of Believing was the authority of the Church now the authority of God revealing the cause of their belief Before you concluded Faith consisted in submitting the understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it now it is the authority of God revealing which causes their faith to be Divine As for the term thus the formal object is such under which and in respect whereunto any thing proceedeth if then Gods Revelation cometh not to us under the Proposal of the Church or as proposed by the Church then the cause is lost if it doth then grant me my term and affirm with me that the Pontificians hold so If not they are better then you And what means else their implicite faith unlesse we are to believe every thing as the Church believeth it and because the Church proposeth it as you said and if we be to beleive every thing as the Church believe it then is the Church the formal object of their faith since they are also bound not to doubt but simply to obey as Bellarmine tells us in his fourth Book of the Roman Bishop 5. chap. The other term you find fault with is excesse of faith You taxe it as improperly spoken But surely it will passe without any Grain of Salt or of allowance if we consider that Faith may be compared as to a particular object and so there is not an Excesse of Faith as to that but then it may be compared as to many objects and so though we do not more believe one thing then we should if we should indeed believe it yet may we believe more then we should If we believe those things which are not at all to be believed And thus if we should believe whatsoever the Church of Rome proposeth we might be destroyed for excesse of Faith The Church of Rome is peccant in excesse of Faith by believing more points then it should believe and this is the reason why our Divinity is in negatives as to differences with them because their Divinity in differences to us is in additions SIR If you will excuse me for being so long I shall now conclude with the whole conclusion of Saint Austin whereof you gave me but part Against Reason no Sober Man will go against Scriptures no Christian then Christians should go by Scriptures against the Church no Peace-maker The Roman Catholick's first Treatise How in these times in which there be so many Religious the true Religion may certainly be found out The Preface THE Romane Catholicks have often foretold that by permitting freely to all sorts of people whatsoever the reading of the Scriptures in their Mother Tongue multitudes of New Sects and Heresies would not fail to grow up in numberless Number and as for the Peoples Manners they would daily grow worse and worse How true this is let the world judge That then which now mainly imports is to distinguish the true Religion from so many false ones This is my Aim To effect this I did write a short Paper shewing the Catholick Church so to teach the infallible way to Salvation which is to be obtained onely in the true faith that we cannot have as things stand any other Assurance to ground our faith upon securely I did never deny that when by the Infallible Authority of the Church we are secured that the Scriptures be the word of God we cannot believe such things as are clearly contained in the Scripture for so I should deny that I could not believe that to be infallibly true which upon an Infallible ground I believed to be Gods own word But I did and still do maintain that no man can have Infallible ground to believe the Scriptures now but he who first believeth that which the Church teacheth to be infallibly true Whence it will follow that his faith must needs now at the first be grounded upon the Revelation of Gods truth made by God to us by his Church and not by his written word The Papers I did write to this Effect have been answered by some truly Learned Scholar so that I hope so worthy a Man will not reject such a Reply as may seem to be as clear a Demonstration as any wise Man can hope for in this Matter And such a Demonstration I hope by Gods grace to make whilst I endevour to make good the Title prefixed to this Paper which Title I now add to shew that my chief drift is to guide a Soul redeemed by Christs blood to that happy eternity to which we cannot attain unless in all doubtful Controversies of faith we follow the Catholick Church as an Infallible Judge in all those Controversies we being obliged under pain of damnation not to dis-believe this Judge And whilst I demonstrate this I do demonstrate my former Position That the Infallible Authority of the Catholick Church is the Ground of our faith And also going on with this Demonstration I will leave nothing of Concernment unanswered in the Reply made and thus I will conclude contradictorily to the said Reply which a little after the beginning denyeth The Authority of the Catholick Church to be the Ground of faith and that whereby we are infallibly ascertained of the minde of God I answer not the Reply just in the Order that my Answer was returned for so I should be over-long I use this way of a little Treatise to prove my Title for thus all will be more clear and less tedious In the Conclusion I shew all the parts of the Reply to have been fully answered in this Discourse The Proof of the Title St. Anselme hath a very fit Similitude to express how much a Contentious Spirit in disputing doth blind the understanding from seeing the Manifest Truth He sayeth that a little before Sun-rising two men in the fields did fall into a hot debate concerning that place of the Heavens in which the Sun was that day to rise the one pointing out one part of the Heavens the other another They passed so far in their Contention that falling together by the Ears they both pulled out one anothers Eyes and so when the Sun by and by after did rise neither of them both could see a thing so clear as was the place of the Sun rising To our purpose Because Zeal in Religion is accounted laudable and also because prejudice caused by Education in such or such a Religion is a thing exceedingly swaying us to our own side we are commonly apt to grow into so hot a debate in disputations about Religion that I may freely say This Passion hindreth many thousands from seeing that clear Sun-shine of Truth which men of mean Capacity would clearly behold if setting all passion and prejudice aside they did with a Calm and humble Mind beg of God to give them this grace of seeking Truth with all sincerity for then he who should seek should find This is proved manifestly
such as also the books of Wisdome of which St. Austin saith That it was received of all Christian Bishops and others even to the last of the Laity with veneration of Divine Authority l. de Praedest Sanct. Sanctorum 14. What more cleer And yet you see that all you of the Church of England deny all veneration of Divine Authority to this Book By what Scripture shall we end this and the like Controversies of other Books for which we have as strong proofs as these now cited and you have onely so weak a proof as is a light so peculiar to your selves And upon the certainty given you onely by this sight you firmely believe all the Scripture that you believe that is all the Faith you have all the Beliefe you have depends upon this That you can see so evidently such and such a Book to be Canonical that this your Sight by light received from those Book shewing them to be assuredly Canonical is the onely Infallible Assurance you have that such and such Books are Canonical and consequently this your peculiar sight is the onely Infallible Ground you have to rely upon these books as upon the undoubted Word of God This is your Doctrine this is your Holy Way a way so direct that fools cannot erre by it though you professe so many wise Men in this point have erred even whole General Councels as also so many great Doctors before whose eyes this same light stood as clear as before yours for they Judged very many to be Canonical Scriptures which you deny so weak a ground are you all forced to rely upon even in the main Point of Eternal Salvation whilest you refuse to rely on the Infallible Authority of Christs Church Neither doth this our relying on the Churches Authority derogate to the Scriptures for we do not say that the Church maketh them true Scriptures but it maketh us to have an Infallible Ground to hold them for true Scriptures as they are in themselves and this not because the Church maketh them held to be so but because they are true in themselves as being the Word of God yet not known by themselves to be so by any Infallible knowledge without this the testimony of the Church as Christ was the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the World but the Infallible testimony of St. John Baptist made many know that he was so And thus Christ was made known to the world by the Infallible testimony of his Apostles upon whose testimony many Thousands believed before the Scriptures were written Therefore for the Scriptures to be believed what they are of themselves for the Infallible Testimony of the Church doth no more derogate to their honour or make the Church Superiour to them then it derogateth to the honour of the Son of God to be believed to be what he is upon the Infallible testimony of his Apostles which testimony had it not been Infallible those who grounded their Faith upon it had had no Infallible ground to believe our Saviour to be him who he is In like manner if the Authority of the Church testifying such and such books to be Gods Word were not Infallible we should have no Infallible ground to know them to be such though they truly be such of themselves but of this Infallibility I will say no more Now I will go on and shew yet further that the Scriptures cannot be the Judges of all Controversies for many things are set down in Scripture in such manner that almost all the Controversies which are in the Church do arise about the true Interpretation of the Scripture And God did well know that this would happen and therefore he must needs know that he should give the world a very unprofitable Judge in order to the keeping of Unity and deciding of Controversies if he should onely leave them a Book about the true meaning of which Book he well knew more Controversies and Disunions in Religion would arise then about any other matter so that the greatest Wits here being at greatest dissention this cannot be That holy way a way so direct to us that fools cannot erre by it No Law-maker of any Common-wealth did ever provide so simply for the Unity of it as to leave them onely a Book of Lawes to be the sole Judge of all their Controversies as I shewed before And surely if Christ had intended to leave us a Book to be our sole Judge in all Controversies then undoubtedly he would in some part of this Book have clearly told us so this importing so exceedingly as it doth and yet he hath not done so Secondly if he would have given us a Book for Judge he would never have given us for our Judge such a Book as the Scripture is which very often speaketh sometimes so Prophetically that most would think it spoke of the present time when it speaketh of the time to come that it spoke of one person for example of David when it speaketh of Christ sometime it speaketh by a Figure by a Metaphor by a Parable it hath Tropological Allegorical Anagogical and Mystical senses It useth the Imperative Mood as well for Councels as Commands In no place it so much goeth about to set down a Catalogue of any particular points necessary and onely necessary to be believed which any wise Law-maker would do if he intended by his writings to end all Controversies in Faith yea the Scripture seemeth often to say evidently that which according to your Doctrine is false You hold for Superstitious the Annoynting of sick Persons with certain Prayers and yet Saint James saith cap. 5. ver 14. Is any sick among you let him call for the Priests of the Church and let them pray over him annoynting him with Oyl and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him Is not this Controversie clearly by this place of Scripture decided against you or have you any one place half so clear to the contrary Again about those other most clear words spoken in the Institution of another great Sacrament in which any wise Man would speak clearly This is my Body the late Adversaries of the Roman Church have found out above two hundred several Interpretations They will needs have the sense to be figurative although never any Man in any figurative speech was heard to speak thus For example to take a Vine a Lamb a Door in his hand and say this Vine this Lamb this Door is Christ This is no kinde of figurative speech though it be a clear figure to say Christ is a Vine a Lamb a Door yea he is Bread But to take Bread into a Mans hand as Christ did and then say This Bread is my Body to take a Cup of Wine into his hand and to say This is the Cup of my Blood which shall be shed for you doth not so much as sound like a figurative speech and yet our Adversaries think it so certainly to be so that they venture
Gods wise Dispensations to his Church then when there was no Word written he would provide that that whereby the Church should be ruled should be extraordinarily conveyed and preserved but now when there is a Word written which is a most sufficient ground of Faith as you confesse there is no such cause of any word beside it If the Scripture be a Rule of faith as you do liberally grant then this is now a rule not onely inclusively but exclusively for otherwise it is not as large as that which is to be ruled and then they will not agree in the nature of Relatives and so it will not be a Rule of faith and manners For indeed the propertie of a Rule doth not only exclude lesse but also more It speaks against adding to it as a Rule of faith and manners necessarie in themselves as well as against the negative of not ordering them by it But then again your former reasoning is inconcludent because God revealed himself to his Church severally before he revealed himself by his Church And therefore this was not the way universally holding namely by the Church even before the Scripture was written And therefore much lesse doth it now bind when the Word of God is written Shew the like inspirations to the Church as the Prophets had by some infallible way and then we shall say that thus saith the Lord absolutely undisputedly without possibilitie of contradiction by the mouth of the Church in whatsoever it pleaseth to assert for the truth of God to be believed equally to Scripture and then a Council is to be believed without Scripture as the Nicene you mean was not believed or to be believed without for it did determine by it and by that Text I named I and my Father are one which Saint Athanasius doth apply to that question foure times in that Epistle you named And if you can prove that Saint Peters successours as you imagine had that transient gift of immediate Revelation as Saint Peter had then ye might say Peter spake by the mouth of Leo as infallibly as God spake by his Then the Arrians had as good a plea for their opinion as Athanasius had for they urged the Council of Ariminum and more Councils as Athanasius mentions in the same Epistle if what is said by the Church must be true then Athanasius must have changed his Opinion Or if you will have alwayes the Pope to be put into the authoritie of the Church for an infallible definition binding the consciences of all Christians to believe it as Gospel then must we believe that what he defines is Infallibly true What because he cannot erre No more then those fourtie Popes which Bellarmin speaks of in his fourth Book De Rom. Pontif. from the 8. chapter to the 15. who have been as he said accused of errour and some whereof none can say that all the distinctions and provisions which have been devised for this purpose can possibly justifie Pope Zephyrine a Montanist then he erred if not a Montanist then Tertullian is not to be believed Liberius as before an Arrian so Athanasius so Jerome so Damasus of him and Damasus could not erre as you hold yet an Arrian is surely in errour is he not Honorius was erroneous too and he spoken of in a former paper he a Monothelite as Melchior Canus saith some Catholicks hold and he proves it by Synods the sixth the seventh the eighth and he proves it by Epistles of Popes if all there be deceived how shall we believe authoritie of man As for Gregory the Third Bellarmin in the 12. chapter of that book doth openly say Vel certe Pontificem ex ignorantia lapsum esse quod posse Pontificibus accidere non negamus So he Then do you reconcile errour by ignorance with Infallibility How is he like to be Infallible in all his definitions when he was ignorant in the Gospel and therefore gave a Dispensation to a man to take another wife if the former had a disease that made her not able for the conjugal debt And Alphonsus de Castro in his 1. book 4. chapter hath this passage Omnis enim Homo errare potest in fide etiam si Papa sit Nam de Liberio à Papa constat fuisse Arrianum Et Anasterium Papam fuvisse Nestorianis qui Historias legerit non dubitat and a little after Nam cum constet plures eorum adeo illiteratos esse ut Grammaticam penitus ignorent qui fit ut sacras Literas interpretari possent And how then shall we by your Head of the Church or any other severally or together know the undoubted sense of Scripture infallibly But many necessary places of Scripture do not as you imagin need a Judge or not infallible All things also necessary to be believed are set down in Scripture and the contrary you have not shewed and therefore is there no need of an infallible Judge for the former or tradition for the latter as I have shewed Neverthelesse you proceed thus The Revelation of God coming to us in all these cases by the Church you by your own words in this place must grant her authoritie to be our ordinary cause of Faith So you Answer As you suppose much for your advantage without colour of reason so you confound much without distinction First the term Revelation hath two respects one to the Agent and so it refers to the act and manner thereof another to the matter of that which is revealed that is the object The Revelation of God taking it passively for the object the matter which is revealed comes to us by the Church because the Word written ordinarily comes to us by the Church But taking Revelation of God actively with respect to the manner to bear your sense that God doth reveal himself infallibly by the Church either in the case of Canonical books or of doubts about the sense of Scripture so it doth not come by the Church and therefore is it not the ordinary cause of Faith which must rely upon infallible veritie as Aquinas speaks in his first part first question eight answer and therefore as before doth rely upon the Revelation made to the Apostles and Prophets which wrote the Canonical books and not then upon the Church who was bound to receive these Books and to communicate them So that the Church is concluded to be as an instrument only or a motive of this faith an instrument by its office and a motive by its authority And as for declaring undoubtedly the sense of Scripture So is there not any necessity of a Judge infallible which you would have the Church to be Secondly you suppose that which is not to be supposed that by my words since in those cases the revelation of God comes to us by the Church I must grant her authority to be the ordinary cause of faith and you say also that by my words in this place I must grant so Surely you here do commit
proof from the last Text but one for just as that Text so also this saith that that one point of Jesus his being the true Son of God and the Messias might clearly be found in the Scripture How will you inferre Ergo All things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture because one thing is plainly set down Every Veritie set down in Scripture is a most sure infallible Veritie But whence have you that every Verity necessary to salvation is set down in the Scripture And yet again where have you that all things necessary to Salvation were then set down plainly in Scripture when Saint Peter spoke these words which he spoke many years before the whole Canon of Scripture was finished But before the whole Canon was finished it was false to say All things necessary to salvation were clearly set down in Scripture Therefore if Saint Peter had said this in this Text he had said that which was false Therefore It is false that Saint Peter said in this Text that all things necessary to salvation were plainly set down in Scripture 14. Your next and last Text is Act. 17. where it is said of the Bereâ—â—s They received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures dayly whether those things were so Good Sir whilest this text is now fresh in our minds shew me here any one evident clear syllable which saith the Bereans did search the Scriptures before they believed Saint Paul Nay is it not first said They received the Word with all readinesse of mind to wit they received the Word as many other thousands did whose proceedings you can never prove less laudable then the Bereans upon those Motives which Saint Paul proposed unto them before they searched the Scriptures and being by these motives and instructions well illightned to understand the Scriptures they for their further comfort and confirmation searched the Scriptures dayly to see whether they testified the same point and this one point of our Saviours coming being clearly in Scripture perhaps Saint Paul might bid them search in such and such texts for it Neither hence is it made evident that the Old Testament was thrust into every mans hand of the Bereans but that they deputed their chief Doctours to make this search and that for this one point onely Whence as I said before your consequence from hence is very weak That all points necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture because this one point was so Yea when the Bereans did search the Scriptures no part of the New Testament was written how strangely then do you prove from their search of the Old Scripture to find one point set down clearly that all points necessary to be found are set down plainly now the new Scripture is written 15. Having now examined all the Texts upon which you did ground that main point that all things necessary to decide all controversies are plainly set down in Scripture and having found this point no where plainly set down I from hence plainly conclude that the belief of this point is not plainly necessary And I conclude this by your own words That what is not plainly set down in Scripture is thereby signified not to be necessary We are not therefore obliged to take the Scripture for our only Judge of controversies for where is this Obligation plainly set down in Scripture And for ought we can yet see there may be many prime controversies no where plainly decided yea or so much as lightly insinuated in Scripture And yet the Scripture wanteth not that glory of being sufficient to decide all imaginable controversies because she teacheth us that Christ hath erected a Church built upon a Rock the pillar and ground of truth having the Spirit of truth abiding with her to teach her all truths Frivolous is that Objection which saith If it be a point necessary to salvation to believe that the Church is to decide with infallible authority all our controversies we should find this plainly set down in Scripture Because as we have proved all this while all points necessary to salvation be not plainly set down in Scripture even such points as might import the ending of all controversies to wit this your grand point All things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture Yea the Texts which I bring chap. 4. are a hundred times more clear to prove that the Church is to decide all our controversies then that the Scripture by it self alone is to decide them as any man may see by the attentive reading of these my Texts there and your Texts here See there Numb 58. 59 60 61 62 63 64 65. 16. Though it might evidently serve to prove against you That all things necessary to Salvation be not plainly set down in Scripture that this very prime point is not plainly set down in Scripture yet I have already in the beginning of this Chapter brought many other strong proofs to which according to good order I should here add those many more which I am yet to bring But you interpose so many things by the way that I am forced to defer those other arguments Yet that my Reader may know briefly what they are and how many and so read them here if he please I thought good to tell him that I prove yet further many necessary points to Salvation not to be plainly set down in Scripture For we find not there set down evidently First Whether it be damnable to work upon the Sunday see Numb 39. Secondly Whether the King be the head of the Church see Num. 41. Thirdly Which books be the undoubted true Canonical Scriptures see Numb 42. And particularly Whether St. Matthews Gospel be the undoubted word of God Numb 42.46 Fourthly Whether it be clear in your opinion that Christ did not institute the Sacrament of Extreme unction see Numb 58. Fiftly Whether also it be clear that Christ doth not give us his true body in the Sacrament Numb 59. Sixthly I shew divers points necessary to Salvation for which you cannot shew evident Scripture As That God the Father is not begotten God the Sonne is begotten and not made And that he is Consubstantial to his Father That God the Holy Ghost is neither made nor begotten but doth proceed and that both from the Father and from the Son see Numb 60. Seventhly I presse for an evident Text for Baptizing Infants or bringing them to be baptized when Parents can which you hold necessary for all Parents Numb 61. I might have added that great Question Whether it be necessarie to rebaptize those who be baptized by Hereticks For as Saint Austin saith De Unitate Eccle. c. 22. This is neither openly nor evidently read in Scripture Neither by you nor by me Yet if there were any wise man of whom our Saviour had given testimony and that he should be consulted in this Question we should make no doubt Mark this thou impugner of the infallibilitie of
he seeth this newly vented doctrine fit to be declared Heresie if it be so or to be imbraced if it be fitting and proposed to all Christendome then is the true time of calling a general Council and not to let the people contend by allegations of Scripture So though the Apostles were all infallible in their Doctrine yet they would not determine that grave question Acts 15. without calling a Council To consider of this word in which there was made a great disputation for this is necessarie for the fuller conviction of Hereticks fuller satisfaction of the weaker sort and further comfort of the whole Church to see truth to triumph upheld by the shoulders of all Christendom what proceeding could be more sweet or more orderly what exposition more agreable to this Text Tell the Church which denuntiation is to proceed by degrees from lower to higher Judges as is there expressed And Consequently when the sentence of the Highest tribunal of all is rejected then or never a man is deservedly to be accounted a Publican or a Heathen for not hearing the Church universall She therefore under so great a penalty being alwayes to be heard is secured from all kind of errour what soever in matters of faith belonging to her tribunall and so we must grant her to be infallible I have then already found out such a judge as I sought for a judge in matters of faith a living judge and infallible as you would have him wih an infallibility excluding all errour in what soever he proposeth or decreeth or all possibility of errour For if it were possible for this judge to impose an errour Christ could not possibly have declared it to be so heinous a crime not to hear the Church being that it might have been no crime at all He obliged all to obey and hear her she therefore cannot lead us into an error For as you truly say To be bound to assent to an errour is impossible Our infallibility of knowledge concerning this point is as great as it is of those points which are delivered by Scripture And therefore you may stand up to my Creed and that far more securely then stand out against such a Church the not hearing of which is so great a crime This Church is infallible and by manifest consequence only the Roman Church as I shall demonstrate the next Chapter Number 2. 7. Here by the way you tell me That If I would go the right way in this Dispute I should use another method for whereas I would argue the Church to be this Judge which we cannot safely disobey I should rather shew a priori That the Church is infallible in whatsoever it doth define and therefore ought to be obeyed in all things whatsoever But Sir when I come to use this very method I do foresee that it will so gald you that you will cry out to have this burthensome heavy argument cast upon the other shoulder from which you now would have it shifted to avoid the present trouble it causeth you you shall see if it fall not out as I said And that in this Chapter Numb 52. Of my 18th Number 8. As for St. Austins Authority I must here lay it aside as well as every where else for fear I should lose my labour even after I have proved what I should 9. You fly upon me for flying to that Text of Malachy 2.7 The Priests Lips shall keep Knowledge and they shall require the Law from his Mouth because he is the Angel of the Lord of Hosts Concerning the translation of which Text I truly charge your Bible of corruption for reading thus The Priests Lips should keep the Law and they should seek the Law at his Mouth Whereas all Originals speak clearly in the future tense as the Hebrew doth and also the Greek and Latin which two Languages want not a subjunctive Mood you ask Is this Text meant of the Priests of Rome I told you it was not And I did say expresly that I added this Text to take away from you all wondering at us for allowing that to be practised towards the Priests of the new Law whose authority doubtlesse excells those of the old Law which was practised towards the Priests of the old Law in which those who searched for the true knowledge of the Law were not directed to seek that knowledge by their own reading the Scriptures but they were to search it by having recourse to the Priests who never universally should fail at any time mark that I speak by universal consent to deliver false doctrine As for private Priests they be like Private translations of the word of God If what they deliver agree with the doctrine of the Church their doctrine is infallible not for their private delivery of it but for the authority of their Church as Translators are not to be believed for their authority but for their agreeing with the word of God But there is a vast difference in this that the agreeing of the Translation with the Original is wonderful hard to know especially when the Original it selfe cannot be known by those who admit of an infallible Church by any infallible knowledge The argument of the Priests with the Publick Doctrine of the Church is easily known because her doctrine is so carefully published amongst all understanding men And as it is easy to know that Homo doth truly signifie a man for though one ignorant or malitious Fellow should say it signified a beast yet the consent of all others would manifest that mans perversity If a question were proposed in a matter of doubt in which their opinions varied then men are to proceed as I just now declared Num. 9. And then when the cause should be decided by the High Priests he who would not not hear him was deservedly put to death Deutronomy 17. I know you told me in another place that the Jewish Church erred I did deny it why Did not they erre in condemning our Saviour Yes but then the Jewish Church erred not The true high Priest without whom there is no true Representative Church erred not Caiphas was not the true High Priest for another was lawfully declared to be so This other true High Priest was Christ who before his condemnation had sufficiently for a legall declaration proclaimed himself to be the true Messias the true Anointed of our Lord. This true high Priest erred not The true head of the Church not erring the Church cannot be said to erre The true head of the Church defined not with the Council of Ariminumt Saint Athanasius was bound to follow the Church defining which defined not in that Council for the Head of the Church not defining with the body the whole body or Church defined not Therefore I say again you erre when you say He should have been bound in Conscience by the censure of the Church to have been an Arrian The Church is the High Priest defining with a lawful general Council The High
the immediate assistance of the holy Ghost which they had undoubtedly And here as if you had proved some thing you have a fling at the Council of Trent for sitting so long a thing as little derogatory to that Councils infallibility as that much disputing and making several speeches was derogatory to the infallibility of the council of the Apostles in which onely one short Decree was made Look on the many Canons and Decrees for Reformation in matters subject to great Disputes Oppositions of secular power which crossed not the Apostles first Council Look on the multitude of Heresies condemned after a full hearing of all that could be said by all parties and it must needs be rather a point of satisfaction to all then a scandal unto any to see so mature consideration used But both a slow and a hastie and a mean delivery of any ones condemnation will be distasteful to the condemned person 27. As for the Authoritie of St. Athanasius calling the definition of the council of Nice by which the Consubstantiality of God the Son with his Father The Word of God it sheweth clearly that this prime Doctor held that God delivered his Word unto us by the council Your Answer is that the councils Definition did not bind with Relation to the Authority of the Council but by the authothority of Scripture Ministerially proposed by the council Sir I have already shewed Chap. 2. Numb 4. that the clearest Text which the council had to cite even that text I and my Father are one can be so expounded by an Arrian that it doth no more then probably declare the consubstaÌ„tiality But as you say here If the text be but probable we caÌ„not froÌ„ thence urge this probable sense of it as an object of faith But S. Athanasius urgeth CoÌ„substantialitie after the Nicene council as Gods VVord and an Object of Faith which he cannot doe with a Relation to a Text onely probable in Scripture Therefore he doth it with Relation to the infallibility of the councils Authority which council if it had onely Authority to propose like a Minister such and such Texts as may be severally taken and consequently mistaken by an Interpreter who is onely fallible could not be said in its Interpretations to propose the undoubted Word of God And though Saint Athanasius held that as truth before the council in order to himself who was convinced that his interpretation was conformable to the ancient Doctrine of the Church yet in order to those who were not before the council convinced by that Verily he could nor boldly denounce this as an infallible meaning of Gods Word obliging all O! This Declaration of Gods Word by the council he boldly said The Word of God by the Council of Nice remained for ever After this you come in again with the council of Ariminum contending that council as well to be believed for it self as the council of Nice And you think if more exceptions could have been made against the authority of the council of Ariminum Saint Austin against his Arrian adversary might easily have Prevailed by insisting onely upon the authority of the council of Nice which he waveth and goeth to arguments out of Scripture Sir A man of reading cannot but know that the council of Ariminum is never by the Fathers no nor by your Church of England numbred among the first foure councils which foure by addition of this council had it been a lawful council should have been made Five And you might as well think that I might prevail against you by only citing the council of Trent which I never cited yet but stood wholly on other arguments For I know as we in vain dispute with Heathens out of Scripture or out of Saint Matthewes Gospel against Manichâ—ans or out of the Machabees against you so Saint Aâ—stâ—â— in vain had insisted upon the Nicene Council against one who scoffed at it as you do at that of Trent He being well furnished with other arguments out of Scriptures admitted by him intended by them onely at that time to overthrow him and not to meddle with a long contention fit to fill a book alone about the validity of the council of Nice and invalidity of that of Ariminum as we two for the like reason doe not stand onely contesting about the authority of the council of Trent I am now for a long time to contest with you about the Scripture onely as Saint Aâ—stin did with him 28. But before I enter further upon this contestation about this controversie of the Infallibility of the Church I must put you in mind of your own doctrines which teacheth that all necessary controversies are clearly decided according to the truth by plain Scripture This controversie then being one of the most necessary must clearly according to your doctrine be decided for you against me by plain Scripture If then I can but shew that it is not thus clearly decided against me I clearly shew that I hold no errour in this point For all errour in such a necessary point as this is can be demonstrated to be against plain Scripture What I hold to wiâ—t that the Church is Infallible cannot be demonstrated by plain Scripture to be so Therefore what I hold is no error Now I must prove that what I hold of the infallibility of the Church cannot by clear Scripture be demonstrated to be an error This I prove thus The Scripture is not so clear against this as it is for this Therefore this cannot by clear Scripture be demonstrated to be an error My first proposition must be shewed by citing as clear texts for what I hold of this point as you can bring against it Well then for this point I have alledged in the beginning of this chapter the text promising That the gates of Hell shall not prevail against this Church and that text which tels us we must hear the Church under pain of being by Gods judgement accounted as Publicans and Heathens and that the Church is the Pillar and ground of truth 29. In my 23. Numb of my former Treatise I adde a fourth Text Behold I am with you all daiâ—s Of my 23th Number even to the consummation of the world Out of this such like promises made to the Apostles we prove their infallibility in teaching in writing c. But these words are to be verified unto the consummation of the world therefore they must not only contain a promise made of being with the Apostles who died a thousand and 6 hundred yeares ago but of being with the Prelats of the Church their successors who shall be to the consummation of the world Your answer to this Text shall be rendred in your own words that you may not complain of foul play Your words were Although the promise be extendible to the end of the world yet it is not necessary to understand it so as that there shall alwayes be equality of assistance to the times of the Apostles
and the dayes of her mourning had been these full thousand yeares short of the end of her mourning And there had been no reason why in such grosse errours she should to Gods comfort be sought for and a City not forsaken These words I am sure are spoke of a visible Church sought for and found out because inhabited and not forsaken your invisiible Church was so desolate that no body can tell where it was And in this sense it is a City still sought for but never to be found for a thousand yeares Or else tell me where 34 For a ninth Text letting all these last Texts of Esay passe as for one I alledged that of Daniel 2.44 In the daies of those Kingdoms the God of Heaven shall raise up a Kingdome which shall not be dispersed and his Kingdome shall not be delivered to another people And that we might know that he speaketh here of the kingdome of Christ which should be visible to us all there is added a circumstance which must needs make it most visible to wit And it shall break in peices and consume all those Idolatrous Kingdomes and it shall stand for ever Now if this true Church of Christ which so visibly hath broken in pieces and quite abolished all Idolatrous Kingdomes be so visibly to stand for ever then this visible Church cannot be said for this last 2000. year to have been faln As it must needs be said of all visible Churches which have bin these last thousand years for besides the Roman Church you will not find one visible Church which hath not faln this time into confessed heresie therefore to verifie these words you must say that the Roman Church did not fall that so you may find Christ a visible Church which did stand for ever And thus also we shall literally expound what the Angel Gabriel said of Christ And he shall reign in the house of Iacob for ever Luke 1.33 This Roman Church then is the Church which hath stood ever since Christs time Whence it is manifest that it did not fal either into idolatry as you intimate hereafter when you reply to this place of Daniel nor when it proclaim'd it self to have an infallible tribunal by which all Controversies are to be truly decided for erecting which tribunal you Page 22. say shee is in peril of treason against God the judge in setting up another judge in the consciences of men And againe Pa. 106. That for pretending to infallibility she is highly presumptious and in this more then an usurper committing an insolent usurpation of the prerogative which belongeth only to God and Scripture And P. 23. you hold this Infallibility as destructive to soules as uncertainty of true Religion Nay say you uncertainty may be helped but infallibility hath no remedy Surely if the Church should have universally faln into uncertainty of true belief it should no longer have been the standing Kingdom of Christ which shall stand for ever But it had been a multitude faln into the want of that faith the want of which had put it in a state in which it had been impossible to please God For uncertainty in faith is wholy inconsistent with an infallible assent but all divine faith consisteth in an infallible Assent Therefore where there is uncertainty there is no divine faith at all without which it is impossible to please God as St. Paul saith you put the Roman Church faln even by this one fall into a worse condition Can a Church in this condition be that Church raised in Christ and spread over the world destroying all Idolatrous Kingdoms by her visible preachers and teachers succeeding with a visible succession one to another administring visible sacraments and by her visible decrees and such like visible Acts destroying all Idolatrous Kingdoms and raigning in their place visibly and thus in the light of the world verifying Daniels prophecy by standing for ever in quality of a kingdome Yet if the Roman Church be not this Church find me out if you can a visible Church for so many visible Acts convince that the Church verifying these words must be visible distinct from the Roman and agreeing with yours in the points debated between us what you hereafter adde concerning this place of Daniel and my first place out of Esay I shall answer in its place Here I thought good to put all these nine Texts of Scripture together that their force might the better appear 35 This being done I must again put you in mind that according to your doctrine Scripture alone is able by clear Texts to decide all Controversies according to truth This Controversie of the fallibility or infallibility of the Church erected by Christ is one of the most important Controversies that can be raised in the Church Now you who pretend this Controversy to be decided for you against me by clear Texts of Scripture are obliged by clearer Texts then all these are put together to prove that Christs visible Church is fallible I say Christs visible Church for all my Texts speak of that and not of the Synagogue and therefore the Texts you bring must be concerning Christs Church And you must bring Texts and not discourses or else you decide not the Controversy by the sentence of the judge to which only you appeal Observe these few things and give me these Texts and I here give you free leave to proclaim me quite vanquished and driven out of the field And by this you will see that we adhere not therefore to the defence of the Churches Tribunal because we fear to be tried by Scripture but because upon trial made by Scripture her Tribunal is proved infallible and in all things to be obeyed by us 36. What occurreth next is to justifie my selfe from the false slander with which you charge me of corrupting the Text in St. Austin Lib. de Utilitate credendi Cap. 19. Sir if I should doe as you did that is if I should only regard that Edition of St. Austin which I have I should not only justifie my selfe but condemne you of corrupting this place Now I onely charge the Edition which you used of corruption yea of such corruption that a man could not but suspect it who would read the context with his perfect sences about him For St. Austin in his 14. Chapter having said that he first believed moved by the authority of the Catholick Church which there he sheweth to have been done by him upon good reason he cometh in the 51 Chapter to presse his adversaries to the easiest way of freeing themselves from errour by yeilding to the authority of the same Church And then in his Sixteenth Chapter he urgeth the wholesomnesse of following this authority Here come in those words which I cited to wit for if the divine providence of God doth not preside in humane affairs in vain would Sollicitude be about Religion But if both the very beauty of all things and our inward conscience doth both publickely
him the authority of the Church is onely binding in a Council with the Popes consent and no Generall Council can be found which did establish the points of Doctrine and Discipline wherein we differ before those Reformers did shew themselves for the Trent Councill which also is not a generall Council was after their beginning as is known and it was called upon their occasion Fifthly as for our Reformation in England from the incroachments of the Court of Rome it was first made by men of the Roman faith So then my Adversary gets nought by this exception And if the Romanists object to us reformation in Doctrine against the Church as in the time of King Edward the sixth we reply as before that we did not oppose the Church Catholick we left the Roman as they left the Catholick Church The whole is greater than the part and therefore had we reason to leave them Omne reducitur ad principium which is a rule of Aquinas We are in Doctrine as the Church was in the times of the Apostles Our defence is in Tertullian in his book of Praesor 35. ch Posterior nostra res non est imo omnibus prior est c. Our cause is not more moderne but more antient than all This shall be the Testimony of truth every where obtaining the superiority Ab Apostolis utique non damnatur imo defenditur it is not condemned by the Apostles nay it is defended This shall be the indication of propriety for those who do not condemne it who have condemned whatsoever is extraneous do shew it to be theirs and therefore do defend it The second inconvenience which he urgeth of my Principles to draw me to his is none Secondly seeing that a Generall Council as you in your first paper confesse is the highest Court on earth to hear and determine controversies c. What then unlesse all were bound to confirme and subscribe to erroneous definitions and all Preachers were silenced and obliged not to open their mouths against their errors This he attributes to me as if I said it or my opinion did inferre it whereas neither is true Nay nor did he find in my papers that erroneous definitions of a Generall Council though the highest Court are to be accepted peaceably reverently and without disturbance namely so as to accept them in assent as true for that would be impossible they may be accepted and reverently and without disturbance as to peace in not opposing though not as to faith in submission of Judgement and because they may thus be accepted will it therefore follow that we are therefore bound to confirme and subscribe to erroneous definitions By no meanes I do not remember that I used the terme of accepting and yet if I did it might be construed in sensu commodo so as not to disturb the peace of the Church and quietly to endure the censure But there is a vast difference betwixt not opposing and conforming or subscribing For not to oppose is negative to conforme or subscribe is a positive act Not to oppose respects the definition as a publick act to conforme or subscribe respects it as true which I cannot do supposing it erroneous Not to oppose regards the Judgement of the Church as authoritative to conforme or subscribe regards the judgement of the Church as at least not erring in the definition And as for that he saies that by my confession all Preachers are silenced and obliged not to open their mouths against these errors I answer first by distinguishing of the matter of the error If the matter of the error be not great as not destroying an article of faith it might be better quietly to tollerate it than publickly to speak against it if the matter of the error be repugnant to an article of faith then we distinguish of the manner of speaking against it and we say we may soberly refer it to another general Council if any be in view If not we may speak the truth positively without opposition to the authoritie of the Church so as to vilify or contemn it Yea further if the Council be free and general it being so qualified it is not like to erre in any decree repugnant to a main article of faith and therefore the question about speaking against it is in this case well taken away And yet further admitting and not granting that such a Council should erre in defining that which is contrary to an article of faith yet must my Adversary have supposed by his principles that the truth contrary to this error hath been established by some other general Council or else according to him the Church hath not sufficiently provided how to settle us infallibly in matters of faith since according to him we must resolve our faith ultimately in the Decrees of Generall Councils and then Council will contradict Council and therefore will not a Council be a ground of faith because one may contradict another and also we may speak by vertue of the former Council against the error of the latter And therefore the whole Church of God is not in a pitifull case by any thing of what I said in reverence to Councils without absolute obedience But to be sure the Church would be in a pitifull case if indeed we were bound to receive intuitively all definitions of Councils in whatsoever matters for then should we be bound to submit our conscience to a Council against our conscience since it is not yet proved infallible and this makes for the inward act a contradiction for the outward hypocrisie And surely if that which is most hard is most easily broken as was said by one in the Trent Council then that he urgeth is easily answered for there is to be sure lesse danger in not speaking against that which is false as he would have me say than in yielding to all as infallibly true as he would have me believe And therefore that which follows returnes with more force upon my Adversary mutatis mutandis A pitifull thing it would be if the Church were bound to believe all definitions of a Council which are not yet proved nor ever will be not to be fallible and consequently some that may be false which being by command from the highest authoritie upon earth preached by so many and not so much as to be consiwered by one would needs increase to a wonderfull height Would any wise Law-maker proceed thus if they could helpe it as well as Christ could by continuing in his word written that infallibilitie which my Adversary hath confessed or must that it always had and shall have As for the infallibility of the Church for two thousand yeares before Scripture was written and that which this Church of Christ had before all the whole canon of the new Testament was finished which was for the first forty yeares of the Church This we have spoken to sufficiently before And this doth at most inferre upon a supposition that the Church was for
besides how many may dissemble what they see Who so blinde as he that will not see If the Chinites say they onely themselves see with both eyes those of Europe with one eye and the rest of the world with neither surely those of Europe who will not see are blinde of both eyes The Council of Trent according to them an Oecumenicall Council if they could see better things not cleare why did they not in all points declare first what was to be held and then what was to be anathametized And if they were more like to see what is cleare how came they to abandon the use of the cup Nay how came they to establish a transubstantiation seing our Saviour after consecration said plainly St. Mark the 14. the 25. I will drink no more of the fruit of the Vine Was his blood the fruit of the Vine But sixthly to make use of his disjunction places are either cleare or not namely places of Scripture if not cleare no absosolute necessity of a generall Council so as no salvation to be had without clearing the difficulty if clear what need then of a Council we may be saved without some knowledge we cannot believe without infallibility Seventhly let them reconcile this necessity of a Council to the sayings of Paul the fourth who said he had absolute authority that for himself he had no need of instruction because he knew Christ did command that he had no need of a Council for he himself was above all that he could remedie all inconveniences by his own authority as is said of him in the History of Trent the fifth book And therefore my Adversary or the Pope is out All he saies here also for Councils makes no more than a morall assurance which how much it is lesse than the certainty of faith Mr. Knot will tell Indeed he says Again I may and ought to know that the Holy Ghost hath promised an assistance to his Church sufficient to secure it from bringing in any error as I shall shew chap. 4. Yes surely if this could be proved there were no more to be said this principle will beat down to the ground all opposition which an humble soule can make We confesse it when it is proved But surely this is as much in question as any thing else Untill the supposition be grown into a proof we have then yet but prudentiall Arguments to faith And yet we say secondly if he would have been so wise as to have stated it with a judicious moderation thus that we may and ought to know that the Holy Ghost hath promised an assistance to his Church sufficient to secure it from bringing in any error namely as to destroy the foundation that might have been better endured but he hath granted that this will not serve his purpose as Mr. Knot notes he must have the Church secure from any error These Catholicks as they call themselves cannot speake under the forme of universality which is more easily contradicted And we suspend our assent untill the demonstration comes We may not nor ought to know this We ought not for we cannot We cannot but by Scripture For if they say we may know it by the Church it is the question Neither doth he prove our opposition of Councils in their most fundamentall ground upon which all Councils hitherto have still supposed themselves to sit as Judges c. Num. 8. For first it doth not appeare that all Councils have supposed themselves to sit as Judges with full commission to determine securely all controversies if the terme security be taken securely from all error And if they have not so defined it that they do so sit as Judges or sit as Judges so how shall we according to my Adversaries principles believe it since we are to fetch all truth from the Church in a Council And secondly if all Councils did establish it a Principle we yet expect a reason hereof since neither Pope nor Council have absolute authority nor both to together to bind our belief Yea thirdly the Council of Nice did sit upon as good ground as any other Council but the Council of Nice did examine all things by Scripture so in the History of the Nicene Council prefixed in a Vatican Edition it is said Rebus itaque in utriusque partem jactatis et ad certam Divinarum Scripturarum normam perpensis communi omnium suffragio Arrius et Eusebius damnantur Things being discussed on both sides and weighed and examined according to the certain rule of Divine Scriptures by common consent Arrius and Eusebius are condemned Therefore are not we to look for a Dictatorian sentence but a rationall determination out of Scripture and if we finde this this doth oblige all Christians to conforme to their definitions But fourthly we deny that we are so obliged by such censures as were still held to be ratified in Heaven We are not obliged by them neither in themselves nor because they were so held nay also we deny that they were so held to be ratified in Heaven unlesse with this limitation clave non errante Yea again these do not oblige us to conforme our judgement their power respects the outward act Yea again if so Honorius was rightly condemned in the sixth Generall Council therefore was an Heretick yea and Pope Vigelius was an errant Heretick for defending the three chap. against the fifth Councill And the Romanists are bound to think the Condemnation just or the Council to be null And yet that Council thought it self sufficient in authority without and against the Pope and therefore they all differed from my Adversary who saies the Council does not bind without the Popes confirmation He saies further others will tell you divers other opinions you have with Councils But if he would have had me answer for my self he must have told me the particulars Generalia non pungunt and they make no action To distinguish infallibility from their authority is no opposition untill infallibility be infallibly made good And even in this place you tell all how little you credit Councils when you charge them with speaking contradictions Ans First credâ—t may be given in sensu diviso to those that may possibly speake contradictions if we meane by credit a morall respect of humane faith but if he meanes credit of faith Divine I then grant it that such credit is not to be given to them which may speake contradictions for how are they then infallible as they must be by my Adversary if they ground faith As was said of the Milisians Non sunt stulti sed possunt stulta facere they are not fools and yet can do foolish things so a Council may be wise and yet may speake foolish things and I may give some credit to them in generall for their wisedome though it be possible for them to say that which includes a contradiction Secondly I may charge Councils with contradictions to one another though not to themselves For
thus Since you bring the authority of Councils to a little more than nothing and again the authority of the Fathers to a little lesse than nothing in order to the ending of Controversies this your violence against any provocation to antiquity and consent to Fathers will give me leave to make this Treatise much shorter than at the begining appeared possible for it is evident out of your own words that it is to no end to deale with you out of Fathers and I am resolved to deale with no body but to some end I will therefore humor you in this and I will lay aside all that might hereafter be said concerning the opinion of Fathers Ans Nimia perfectio parit suspicionem My Adversary is so curious in this apology of his that he is to be suspected I gave no such occasion but he takes it against the use of the Fathers in this point I am not guilty in any sober mans judgement of any privative disrepect unto them I do not bring the authority of the Fathers to a little lesse than nothing what is due justly either to Councils or to Fathers I do willingly give But because infallibility is not granted therefore am I charged with disrespect This is a fallacie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that denies them this doth not deny unto them such reverence as is equal And for the Fathers I have not waved any testimony which hath been produced against our cause I have not said as he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yea I have used the same Argument against my Adversaries in triumphum Again 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he in his Rhetorick but I have said nothing which is not conformable to the word of God to the consent of the Fathers and of the Doctors of the Church but because I will not make the word of the Fathers and of the Doctors equall to the infallible word of God therefore am I not reasonably accused of slighting the Fathers and Doctors of the antient Church But this was necessary for my Adversary to colour his refusall of answering to those Fathers I brought against him and to the answers which I gave to the testimonies of the Fathers which he brought against me So difficulty is sometimes by Sophisters construed for impertinency By this Argument I must say nothing proper but what may be easily answered But it had been more ingenuous first to have exhibited solid authorities out of the Fathers of the Primitive antiquity or at least to have given a sufficient answer to my refutation of what use he made of those he quoted against me and then to have laid aside the urging of the Fathers upon my account of Refusall of them onely as infallible Judges To gather up then my exceptions against this part of his apologie I say first I do not either in terms or by consequence bring Councils to a little more than nothing nor the authority of the Fathers to little lesse than nothing in order to the ending of Controversies I allow them to be of great use in his terms in order to the ending of Controversies There may be an ordinability of them towards or in order to this end without infallibility in them they may finde out and give us the infallible sense of Scripture but we cannot take it so upon their word their authority is moving but not cogent of our assent Secondly I except against those words wherein he imputes to me a violence against any provocation to antiquity and consent to Fathers This I deny Neither in termes nor by discourse can they finde such words or sense from me I have used their own weapon against them I have answered their objections from them I renew the provocation and challenge which Bishop Jewell and others of our Divines have made to them to shew if they can any notable part yea any two yea any one of the ancient Fathers that clearly and constantly hath professed the points wherein we differ from them And if the Fathers had been for them why did they corrupt some passages of the Fathers which spoke against them which they have not yet cleared themselves of Yea thirdly whereas he says my refusall of the Fathers will give him leave to make this Treatise much shorter than at the beginning I say not insisting here upon the impropriety of a Treatise if it be no more as to my satisfaction or of the terme if it be more that there had been rome enough for all the Fathers authorities he could produce for himself and also for all that he could say to my answers about their testimonies without Theremaking his Treatise so long if he had left out impertinences and references and repetitions Therefore hath my Adversary taken more liberty than I afforded him in his refusall of dealing with the Fathers yet not more liberty than was necessary for him lest he should be in necessity to answer what answers I made to his former testimonies of them and also to what testimonies I have produced against him And I finde him wary lest I should make this advantage of his resolution to wave the Fathers He would make it to be no design but a rationall purpose therefore he goes on But doe not think that I doe this as if what you here said against the authority of the Fathers found any credit with me or as if what you say were in the least degree hard to be answered for you yourself cannot be ignorant that we alleadge plenty of the Fathers against you as are confessed by your selves to have been the prime Doctors of the Primitive Church Ans The rule is good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And surely he is not damned that doth not believe that all which is said by men on their own behalf is true But secondly they do not produce many testimonies of the prime Doctors of the Primitive Church namely not of the first 300 years nay nor of the first 600 years others are Postnates and have not the honor of Primitive Antiquity Yea some they name as testimonies for them were not Fathers And some works they cite for them which are falsely ascribed to true Fathers as several of our Writers have demonstrated even with the Confession of some of their Church Thirdly whereas he saies Do not think that I do this as if what you have said against the authority of the Fathers found any credit with me he wrongs me with a fallacie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if he would have men believe that I spake against the authority of the Fathers simply because I spake against their authority as absolutely convictive of the understanding in point of truth And also whereas he saies it did not find credit with him I am of his opinion for certainly little is like to be believed by the Pontificians that is against them But after this manner his Treatise might soon be answered it finds not credit with me One blot would serve for all the Treatise Fourthly what
shewing it to be true Scripture more than they discover in the books of Judith and Tobit shewing them to be true Scripture Ans My Adversary here was very bold to bring into equall compare the books of Judith and Tobit with the book of Numbers one book of the Pentateuch as to the Autopisty thereof But the Jews who say that every letter of Scripture makes a mountain of sense could see more in the book of Numbers than in those Apocryphal books Therefore if we would resolve the acceptance of one and the refusall of the other into a reason of both and ask why the Jew acknowledged the book of Numbers not the other we must find that the acceptance of the one and the disacceptance of the other cannot fall into the account of the Jewish Church its authority because the question will rebound why the Jewish Church did authorize one and not the other And therefore my Adversary gets nothing by this objection for the Church cannot be the reason of the approbation of the one and the preterition of the other because this difference made by the Church must be determined by a judicious act upon good cause For do they dream that the Church hath an arbitrary power to receive one book and to expunge another out of the Canon Did they not excercise in it a judgement of discretion Now he that discernes sees betwixt two and sees cause why one should be taken the other left Every elective act casts the ballance upon more weight And therefore must we not take the recension of books canonicall from the power of the Church And then again secondly this availes not the Roman Church because if the discerning of books canonicall did autocratorically depend upon the Church its declaration yet as it is noted not upon a particular Church 〈◊〉 the universall Church for time and place 〈…〉 the books of Tobit and Judith are 〈◊〉 numbred as Canonicall amongst the rest by the Canon of the Apostles as Caranza sets them out And therefore they saw nothing in them for their reception and yet did in others And if it belongs to the Church authoritatively to declare what books are Canonicall yet cannot the Church have authority to declare more than the Apostles constituted if they take those Canons to be Canons of the Apostles for otherwise they must challenge a power to the Church not only of declaring what is Canonicall but also of making it such which is more than their great Doctors dare affirm And if they will still plead those books Canonicall let them answer it to St. Jerom and St. Cyrill of Jerusalem and to the rest whom they think not to have differed from the Church and yet have differed from them in this But those who will swear no difference we may say are not willing to see it Secondly they must infallibly shew that this very verse in which I find this point is not thrust in amongst other true parts of Scripture or some word changing the sense either thrust in or left out in this verse and this they must know infallibly Ans Again I must say that we are upon the supposall of Scripture and therefore this should not be called into question which is the subject but this for more tediousnesse must be brought in upon all occasions or none But for the uncorruptednes of the text if they will not believe me let them believe Bellarmin as before who denies any substantiall corruption but then again we are as sure as they for we have for it all the authority the Church hath if it be infallible we have it Again the Scripture is corrupted or not If so then by the Roman Church or by some other Not by the Roman Church they will say then by some other is it corrupted If by any other then first how well have they been keepers of Canonicall truth and how then shall we trust them Secondly if corrupted then how do they know that those texts which are produced for them are not corrupted If by the Church they know them not to be corrupted this is the question which is to be proved and therefore cannot yet prove it For as they say we cannot know the Scripture to be infallible by the Scripture so neither can we know infallibly the Church to be infallible by the Church Though it were infallible yet this must be also known infallibly according to my Adversaries argument Indeed if the word of God did leave witnesse to its infallibility then we are satisfied but if the texts of Scripture be corrupted how shall I be sure whether those they make use of be not corrupted Therefore had they best for ever close their mouths against any corruption of Scripture untill they can sufficiently prove that the authority of the Church is principium primo primum in Divinity For the testimony of the Church cannot exceed of it self its genus It can make no more than an high opinion which comes short of and is too low for infallible assurance But then moreover this objection is retorted upon them How can we be infallibly assured that in the Decrees and Canons of Council there should be no corruption that one thing is not thrust in or somewhat left out since we know that there was a falsification of the Nicene Council as before Since they have corrupted passages of the Fathers as before Since some words of the Decrees of the Council of Trent were changed after the vote as appear in the History So then in this respect as in others we may conclude they have no reason to accuse our way of uncertaintie for we may be sure of this that no way is so full of uncertainties as theirs If the Scripture be true they may be a Church if false they may be Heathens What he says Thirdly after all this c. hath in it no such difficultie as they imagin for the words themselves incorrupted do shew their own sense as being for the things necessary spoken in a plain and common acception And also their Decrees and Canons as before are to be sure more obnoxious to diversitie of sense because they were framed at least some of them for such a capacitie Neither if some things be expressed figuratively doth any such perplexity arise because the figurative expression doth not oppose the literall sense so much as it doth sometimes illustrate it And this kind of speech as to Sacraments in regard of the relation betwixt the sign and the thing signified is indeed naturall and proper Though the manner of speech be not proper simply yet quoad hoc as to Sacraments it is proper And my Adversary might have taken notice that St. Austin hath noted as before that things darkly set down in one place are to be compared with other places where they are delivered more clearly And therefore that which follows about the ambiguity in what sense we must take the words if we go by Scripture only might very well have been
spared For as we do not argue in Divinity from texts mystically delivered unlesse the mysticalnesse be rendred in Scripture so we do not account those texts which are ambiguous to be such as to contain points necessary to salvation Therefore is my Adversary very wide in this discourse because it goeth upon a supposition that every text is necessarily to be understood and infallibly in the sense thereof This can be denied freely without any detrement to our cause Might we not therefore smile at that which follows as if we were bound infallibly to know the secret free will of God for which we must have a revelation or else our cause should be lost What is this to the contradiction of us unlesse we were either obliged to know infallibly all senses of all texts or unlesse those texts which contain points necessary were so doubtfull in the sense thereof We deny both The Scripture is in the sense And as to points necessary the revelation is in the words no need of a revelation of the sense after the revelation of the words because the sense is revealed in the words As if when our Savior saith This is eternall life to know thee the onely true God and him whom thou hast sent Jesus Christ we must yet have an eternall labor to find out distinctly in what sense we must take plain necessary truths As if when our Savior commands us to repent and believe we had need of another revelation or an infallible Judge to tell us in what sense we must take the words As if when our Saviour says that he hath revealed these things to babes we must go to the Holy Father of Rome and the Fathers of a Councill for an uncontrolable exposition of these things If then by the secret free will of God Gods purposes of binding us in our obedience that as to things necessary is revealed in the termes His voluntas signi as they speak as to these things necessary is plainly delivered and otherwise the expression were not good if we needed another revelation of the sense Indeed the voluntas bene placiti as to his actions that needs a revelation but what is this to our purpose The former will how he would expresse himself was free to him before he did reveal himself in such writings but afterwards it was determined by the plain signification of the words as to those matters of faith And where do they find this revelation in Scripture that we must go to the Church for a revelation of the sense of difficult texts Yea of those texts which concern the Church How shall we know whether those texts be rightly interpreted and know it infallibly Not by the Church For the question is of the Church Not by a revelation made to particular persons for then we might have a revelation of other texts in the sense of them Therefore must they say they are plain And if so then so may other texts be especially such as respect necessity to salvation Therefore when we have tried all ways as to faith we must center in Scripture And let them think upon that of Christ to St. Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What he says Fourthly I have little to say to The authorites of Sanctius and Sharpius which he produceth are more for my advantage than his For my Adversary confesseth that learned Sanctius confesseth that holy Scripture in those things which are necessary is clear Secondly as for the nineteen rules which he gives as necessary to the knowledge thereof this may respect other texts of Scripture which do not contemn necessary points Thirdly if those rules be intended as to the knowledge of what is necessary to salvation and not to the knowledge of Scripture in generall yet the difficulty must not be great even by those rules for how then can Scripture be clear as to things necessary Yea also St. Austin gives rules for the understanding of Scripture and yet holds that Scripture as to faith and manners plainly delivers things necessary as before Neither is it necessary for our cause to exclude the use of means for the understanding of Scripture even in things necessary It is sufficient to us that by the use of means those texts are so plain as that we have no need of an external infallible Judge But we can admit with Sharpius the means he names to know originall Languages to discusse the words Phrases and Ebraisms to confer the places which are like and unlike to one another as to the understanding of Scripture de communi and they are necessary but he cannot mean these rules to be necessary for the understanding of every truth in Scripture And therefore if his authority were sufficient yet cannot this he says be effectuall to prove a necessity of all these means as to the finding out of the sense of those texts wherein necessary truths are laid down That Jesus is the Christ that whosoever believeth shall be saved that there is a necessity of good works are truths so plain as he that cannot use those means may plainly discern and therefore need we not the help of those rules as to produce infallibility To be even then with my Adversary for these authorities we may also urge as the Arch Bishop of Collen who as before reformed his Church by the rule of Scripture so also the Cardinall of Rochester who in the Trent Council said It was better to take for our ground the Scripture whence true Theology is taken than the subtilties of Philosophy which the Schools have used Hist Trent Counc Pag. 197. 8. And add hereunto the uncertainties of the sense of a Council as appears by contest of Soto and Viga Hist Tr. Counc 216. As for the saying of that so much esteemed Chillingworth which he adds fifthly namely no more certain sign that a point is not evident than when honest understanding and indifferent men such as give themselves liberty of judgment after mature consideration of the matter do differ about Unto which he subsumes About how many points do you and your Brethren differ which I have in this chap. shewed to be points mainly necessary to salvation which according to this rule of knowing what is evident what not are evidently not set down plainly in Scripture What comes this to but a confusion For Mr. Chillingworth gives us the Maxim and my Adversary makes the assumption upon presumption that he hath proved many things to be differed about which he saith he hath shewed to be necessary to salvation By Mr. Chillingworth's rule those points should not be necessary because we differ about them But my Adversary would fain prove it may be that Mr. Chillingworth's rule is false If it be false how can he use it against me If it be not false then it concludes more against him however till he proves our differences to be about necessaries his discourse hath neither forme nor truth upon his part Some twelve lines of this number
with him in kind it is said in Eusebius that for some time in the Church some books were doubted of now let me ask how came the Christians afterwards to be assured of those books to be also Canonicall Not by the former Church for they doubted thereof not by the latter Church that was impossible How then came the Christians first to be perswaded of those books to be also authentick If it be said by the present Church we suppose a time before the Church then was thereof assured Yea if it be said that private Christians were therein resolved by a Council we say that some were assured of books before doubted of before there was any General Council Yea how came those of the Council upon the supposition to be so determined of them It will be said by them that they were assured by the Spirit of God then as Stapleton's argument is since there is one formal reason of faith the last resolution must be by the Spirit Num. 24. In the twenty fourth number he argues against me thus that if my opinion were true then let but an Heathen or Turk or Jew read the Gospell he must by reading of it see it as clearly to be Gods word as he might see the Sun by his light Ans If they must be answered toties quoties we say they suppose that which is not to be supposed that we say the Scripture may be seen by its own light naturally We say not so Supernaturall objects are not seen by natural faculty for then what needed the testimony of their Church The object is fair were the faculty fit The Spirit of God doth not relate to the object directly but to the faculty enlightning it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Aristotle in his Metaphysicks and much more therefore is our minde unable to look up upon that which is not only removed from sense but also from reason therefore is the apprehensive power raised by the Spirit of God to make a proportion betwixt the faculty and the object and the difficulty of apprehension is more from the weaknesse of the faculty than the sublimity of the object therefore if an Heathen or Turk or Jew were by the Spirit of God inlightned he would by reading of the Scripture have such an eye as might discern the Scriptures to be the word of God And also neither can any one by reading of the determinations of Councils see that they are the word of God Hath God provided better for their clear conversion by the voice of the Church than by his written word Doth the Turk and Jew run to the Church of Rome as naturally as the Lamb to the dam Doth the Jew think he hath reason to recieve the Scripture from the Roman as to the old Testament Or doth he not think that the Roman should take the Bible from him and therefore in course the Jew is said to offer it the Pope as he goes to his Palace If this were true it is impossible thousands should not be yearly converted by this means Ans No if the Roman could help it for he would not suffer them to have the common use of the Bible yea also may we say the same if they could not but believe by the knowledge of the Church at first sight Yea surely the reason why so few of them doe believe is not because they are not disposed to believe by reading of the Scripture but because they are not disposed to read them This effect indeed he vaunts is to be performed by the Preachers of the Church who have found the concurrence of Gods grace to the conversion of millions Ans It is well that they have so good reason to magnifie preaching and yet this action is not by their great ones so highly esteemed and this practice I think they took from their Adversaries who had the first fruits of this office and therefore if it be so the argument is available as well to them But secondly the conversion was not it seems ex vi ministerii but by the concurrence of Gods grace and surely the concurrence of Gods grace is sufficient to conversion by reading But thirdly if the Preachers of their Church as Xavier with the concurrence of Gods grace did convert millions then I hope infallibility may be even in private Doctors or else we have no need of infallibility in order to conversion But he supposeth that reading of the Scriptures alone did never find the concurrence of Gods grace to convert any single man that we could hear of Ans More may be done than they know and more may they say of their Preachers than was done Secondly were their Preachers Preachers of the Church objective If so then they had other denominations than did become them who had a mind to follow the Apostles who rather commended Christ to the Church than the Church to Christians Yea if St. Paul 2 Cor. 4 5. says We preach not our selves but Jesus Christ the Lord and our selves your servants for Jesus sake how could they preach themselves or the Roman Doctors to be the Masters of their faith and the Roman Church not onely to be the Mother but Mistrisse of the Christian world Thirdly if any did believe by them they did not believe for them and therefore was not their authority the ground of their faith nay not the authority of the Roman Church for that can have no greater authority than St. Paul had and what said he of himself 1 Ep. Cor. 3.5 For what is Paul and what is Apollos but Ministers by whom ye believed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And fourthly is not reading of the word an ordinance of God and therefore was the Law read in the Synagogues every Sabbath day and is there any ordinance of God with which he doth not at all concur though he is not bound to it yet he doth it gratiously Yea fiftly was not Junius converted to the Christian faith by reading of the first Chapter of St. John with the concurrence of God's grace N. 24 25 26 27 28 29. In all these he prosecutes the same discourse against the clearnesse of the Scripture to be the word of God by its own light And all the arguments therein do in effect hang upon one string which is a supposition that we should hold this principle of the Scripture's being the word of God to be as clearly assented to by a natural faculty as a principle of Science Only in the 29. number he doth dispute against the help of the Spirit to see the Scripture to be credible for it self That supposition we have already taken away and so the string being broken all those arguments must fall yet what in them is new and of moment I shall touch and remove As to the want of suffrages from the Antients for my opinion in this point which he chargeth it with in his twenty fourth Par. I say no more than that I have said more than he had any mind to
secondly That you do not say every point is infallibly decided by Scripture because it is not at all decided Well and what to this Sir is not this a necessary point Answ And is not this in another mans expression to be a begger of the question Let them prove it to be necessary but it seems rather by them that it is not necessary For since the Scripture doth not clearly decide it as they suppose therefore the Church should because otherwise it will be wanting in things necessary where the Scripture doth not determine Now if the Church hath determined for the last three of the first six hundred years it hath determined against the Pope for Kings not as we take them to be Heads of the Church as they take the Pope to be Head but as Supreme Governours circa Sacra And so the Church for that space which is most considerable in this business is against the Popes being Head of the Church and the Scripture doth not declare it for him as my Adversaries confess for then it should declare by consequent negatively against Kings as I have said before and therefore upon the whole matter they have nothing for the Popes being Head And then again if the Scripture hath not declared for the Pope it must be declarative sufficiently for the King because no other pretends to be competitor and this is their own argumentation The Church must be infallible no other Church pretends to infallibility but theirs therefore so Government of the Church must be The Scripture speaks of Government they dare not say that the Scripture declares for the Pope therefore it must declare for Kings Or since all agreement is resolved into common Principles let this difference be mediated by these four Propositions 1. Government of the Church is necessary 2. This Government must be in the Pope or the King 3. The Scripture doth not declare for the Pope 4. The Scripture declares all Points necessary therefore it declares for the King The three first Propositions they consent to And the fourth is not yet disproved therefore This Paragraph is a supernumerary N. 42. To make short work we have no need of repetitions But he will urge again S. Matthews Gospel and again tax me for holding it no point of necessity to believe that it was S. Matthews This he saies my learned Brethren in Ratisbon durst not say Plato's rule is good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not so much who speaks as what yet this is necessary for us to believe that it was written by one inspired indefinitely But it is not equally necessary for me to believe by whom for then I cannot believe the Epistle to the Hebrews because I cannot certainly believe it was written by Saint Paul Again my learned Brethren dared not deny it to be an Article of Faith But first an Article of Faith may be taken largely for whatsoever is to be believed Now though all Articles of Faith in a special sense are to be believed yet all that is to be believed is not in the sense of the question an Article of Faith But then secondly Not to dare to deny it is not to affirm it One is a negative act the other a positive But a pari if I must be bound to their opinion why is not my Adversary bound to his learned Brethren in Ratisbon who did not state infallibilities as my Adversaries do with the necessity of a Council And why do my Adversaries differ from Bellarmin and others of their Brethren who will be scandalized by them because they dispute the Popes being Head of the Church from Scripture for they would be loth to want the Authority of the Scripture for so capital a point which concerns not many millions onely as the other and therefore it seems not absolutely necessary because then it would concern absolutely all but even all for in Bellarmin's opinion as in his Catechism a Christian is defined by union to the Church under the Pope as Head thereof As for his provoking me to believe the Gospel of Saint Matthew upon account of the Church in this number also by the Authority of S. Austin I say onely he might have been so modest as to have left this out until he had answered me in what I have said to that Testimony of Saint Austin at large before N. 43. Here he runs mightily upon a mistake for what I spoke by way of supposition he construes Categorically I said we might suppose more assistance not assurance to the Church in commending Books Canonical than in other cases He takes me to have spoken positively as if God had given infallibility to the Church in this matter though in none other and therefore we are obliged to believe the Church in this absolutely Whereas what I said comes to no more than what is usually said upon such cases dato non concesso And do not the Schoolmen dispute upon hypothetical questions As if I should say If the Pope were infallible in person what need would there be of a Council Or if my Adversaries had a minde to be contented with common Principles of Christianity we should soon have done These Consequences are upon meer suppositions So if we were bound to receive the Canonical Books from the Church we might suppose more assistance as to this than to other Points Doth this affirm that the Church had infallible Assistance herein and that we were to take the Books ultimately upon the Authority of the Church Again if we were to take the Books upon the account of the Church what is this to the Roman Church Is not the Universal Church of all times and places more credible than the Roman The whole bears them not they the whole Nay when he had abused my Supposition in p. 86. he doth acknowledge that I do not make belief of Scripture to depend upon the Authority of the Church So then my Adversary needs not to triumph and say This spoils all your onely shift c. He runs away with the line but he will be hooked as well My Adversary hath granted me that the Scripture may be said to contain all things necessary because it sendeth us to the Church where we may have them And may not I as well say to this that this spoils all may I not return him the fruit of his Discourse mutatis mutandis Will he grant that we have direction to the Church from Scripture Then the onely shift they have to avoid our Position of the Scriptures containing all things necessary is still to say that the Scripture sends us to the Church And will they now suppose this most necessary point of all points which is not clearly set down in Scripture to be admitted with infallible assent upon the onely Authority of the Scripture That we are universally to hear the Scripture in things necessary to salvation we have many pregnant places in Scripture as hath been shewed but that we are to learn this one point
put me in minde again that I cannot credit it to be the Word of God by virtue of the Translation since according to my opinion Translations are onely so far Gods Word as they agree with the Originals but we have onely Translations of S. Matthews Gospel no Original at all This we have in places before spoken to But suppose no Original Copie of Saint Matthews Gospel yet this makes no impossibility of belief in Stapletons judgement because we may believe immediately without the interposal of the Church And the Translation is considerable as an Instrument to represent the Object not to help the Effect it hath more relation to the fides quae than the fides quâ to the Faith objective rather than the Faith subjective So that I do not believe the sense to be true for the Translation but I beleve the Translation true because it agrees with the Sense And he that made the Originall can Supply it Again they belive the Gospel of St Matthew Do they not how do they believe it by the authority of the Church Well but what authority had the Church either operative or declarative to make or declare that to be Scripture which was not Scripture they say then the Church can make translations and particularly the vulgar latin to be authentique but the vulgar is not absolutely authentique by confession of their own men And besides the best reason which could be had it been true of the vulgar was this that that should be authentique because it was made by the original copies before they were corrupted Yea but my adversaries say there was no original copie of St. Matthews Gospel or if there was they are worthy to die as David said of Abner because they have kept their Master no better Are they now the Church unto which perfidia non potest habere accessum no unfaithfulness can have access Again if there was not an original copie or no copie of the original how shall we believe their Church to be infallible since the chief place of strength for their Church is found in that Gospel 16. Ch. 18. as Perron would think Suppose the question then be made how they prove their infallibility by Scripture answer is made by the 16. of St. Matt. the 18. Well but we must know it first to be the word of God before they prove their Church infallible by it Now they are at as great a loss as we for they cannot prove that Text to be the word of God by the infallibility of the Church because the infallibility of the Church is in question if that be not before hand assured to us that it is the word of God If then at length they have a mind to rest themselves in common argumentative principles and resolve their perswasion of it to be the word of God upon the credit of universal tradition so do we as to this kind of perswasion Whereas then they say It is uncertain who the Translator was and of what skill and honesty we answer this makes more against them For if a Divine Faith be necessary as they mightily assert then it is reason that we should less relie upon humane arguments which make but humane faith and therefore for our private assurance should believe it upon Gods own authority To that they say If there were one Hebrew Copie then in St. Ierom's time what is that to our purpose now I answer first that this may abate their confidence of an absolute negative 2. If those of Beraea did gratifie St. Ierom with the use of that Hebrew Copy it is very probable that as the former Beraeans were diligent in searching the Scriptures whether those things spoken by St. Paul were true so those would take care to consign it â—o posterity if there was but that one copie thereof 3. If he had the liberty by the Nazaraeans to describe it as before then surely of that Autograph St. Ierome would have made an Apograph he would have made another copy And 4. If the translation they so much brag of were his they know what skill and honesty the Translator was of So then they are brought to this either to take my answer or to deny their translation which they will And all their shifts will not help them N. 47. Here he would put me out of my shifts as he calls them I asked them how they were sure of their latin interpretation to be authentique they say now by tradition of former ages Well but we are satisfied thus also by way of argument concerning the Scriptures and in particular concerning the Gospel of St. Matthew We say also that we are infallibly satisfied herein by the Spirit of God And this way of faith I hope we may assert we may believe what we cannot prove as they believe that Roman Faith which they cannot prove But he saies we are incapacitated to make use of tradition This tradition doth not certâ—fie you because you hold it fallible So then Crede quod habes habes Is this a sufficient argumentation And so consequently it is infallible to you because you hold it infallible So it must it seems be You do not hold it because it is infallible but it is infallible because you hold it And thus infallibility shall not make faith but opinion shall make infallibility I had thought before that verity had been fundamentally in things and that things had not been true because we conceive them so but our conceits had been true because things are so Surely it is a better argument that the Roman Faith cannot be certified to them because their principles are uncertain as hath been shewed then that tradition cannot certifie us because we hold it fallible If it be infallible we are as sure as they in the certitude of the object though because we think it fallible we are not certain certitudine subjecti in the certitude of the subject valeat quantum valere potest And why would they have us sure of our faith in the certainty of the subject and yet scarce allow a certainty of salvation in the certitude of the object But then 2. They are sure by the tradition of former ages namely universal tradition they mean do they not if so universal traditition includes all places then how comes infallibility to be the prerogative of their Church when they are to prove their faith by universal tradition 3. It seems they do not hold tradition to be infallible and therefore by their own argument it cannot certifie them since that which was held in the Church universally for the first ages they do not now hold as they have been told namely the millenary opinion infant communion standing up in prayer from Easter to Whitsuntide Yea why do they not stand up altogether at prayer as was appointed by a Council 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. If they mean the terme certifie as infallibly we grant it if they mean it morally we deny it and therefore if they
good Scripture for none give the terme and afterwards tâ—e signification but the Latin but the name Manna they do not name And whether that be the signification of Manna deserves a criticism Some think that it may come from the Hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so it should signifie a portion neither is Bethel interpreted upon the place Gen. 35.15 So then upon the whole matter that which he confidently saies being not so in his own Instances and more my conjecture is yet true and good unless they can make the Latine Translation to be as Catholique Scripture as they would have the Pope to be universal Bishop And surely if a Translator of Scripture doth translate words of Scripture where the words are not interpreted in Scripture he is not a Translator of Scripture quoad hoc formally but materially of that which is Scripture And this is not to render Scripture so much as to make it And moreover they may know this to be the usage of the Evangelists besides which are acknowledged to have written originally in Greek to give the Interpretation of the Hebrew or Syriack words My conjecture then is well recovered of its weakness But then he falls upon me for giving a contradiction to S. Ierom. Though he saith he did see a copie of the Hebrew Original with his own eyes you reject him though all the Fathers Writings extant stand on his side Answ A conjecture of a possibility of the contrary makes no such contradiction which stands betwixt affirmation and negation categorically 2. S. Ierom then hath rather contradicted them if a conjecture be sufficient to a contradiction For can we conceive that there is not room enough for a conjecture that either that Copie which S. Ierom had use of or that which he described which may be as certain as some other may now be extant in the world which contradicts my Adversary 3. If there were an Hebrew Copie it is more than a conjecture it is more than probable that he who translated it into Greek did exactly compare it with the Hebrew whose faithfulness in those times we might better trust than some Romans now And also they know that the Pope may be deceived in point of fact Neither did all the Fathers I suppose see the Hebrew Copie And it would have been enough that none of the Fathers are against it but it is a greater adventure to say all the Fathers stand on that side And also they may know what Father did profess that he did see the remainers of those cells in which the Seventy did translate the Old Testament and who contemns that testimony I think I bear as much respect to the Fathers as some of the Romanists do or more but yet if I should hold with the Romans against the Fathers that the Bishop of Rome was the universal Bishop I should not be blamed for contradicting the Fathers But to his Argument This Copie translateth ergo it is a translation Answ Tâ—e Antecedent begs the question whether it doth translate or not Whatsoever doth interpret doth not translate And therefore here is an Argument for me It doth not translate ergo it is not a Translation And it doth not translate for then the Interpretation must be in the Hebrew which is denied to have been the use of the Hebrews as before especially in the same case where the name is given in the same letters which signifie the interpretation Therefore the Latine doth not translate when it giveth the Interpretation as in the former examples And the other Evangelists are not Translators when they interpret Hebrew or Syriack words So his Argument is for me And so my cause is not lost as to this point since also S. Austin professed in that of his against the Epistle of the Manichean that he would hear Reason against Antiquity at least surely he might do so in matter of fact Your third shift is in place of giving answer to make an objection asking why our Latine Translation was made authentique if the Church had made the Greek authentique Answ Shall I say that my Adversary doth not seem here to know well what shift to make since he carps at my answering by way of question But then they should be better advised than to make such Arguments as they will not be willing to answer an intergatory about in the same matter But he saies passing by some other words which seem too hot for him I know of no body who told you that the Greek Translation was made authentique by the Church I return upon him Was the Greek Translation made authentique or not He is not willing to say it was nor it was not But I press them Was it or was it not If it was not then their Translation was not of authentique Scripture and so again they do not translate but make Scripture If it was made authentique by the Church then what need of two authentique Translations Again if it were not made authentique by the Church then the Church could be without the authentique Gospel of Saint Matthew and yet have enough for salvation and therefore can we be as well without Traditions of the Church because I presume they profess so much reverence to the Gospel of S. Matthew that they will not say that Traditions are more necessary than the Gospel of S. Matthew And if it were made authentique absolutely by the Church we can better believe it by the vertue of Universal Tradition than they can believe their Latine by the authority of the Roman Church And if it be necessary as it is that Translations as such should agree with Originals and the question be which is the Original or where the Original is to be found they are in as great difficulty as we for then they have no certainty of an Original as to this Gospel to make use of for their Translation And if their Latine as to this was a Translation of a Translation we have the better cause in this because we trust rather to the first Translation And if some part of the Church made use of the Septuagints Translation in stead of the Hebrew and the Pen-men of the New Testament made so much use of it also as is confessed by learned men then may we rather make use of the Gospel of Saint Matthew in Greek than they in Latine Your fourth shift is to pretend to this knowledge by the harmony with other Gospels Ans A great deal he saies to this which I might spare the refutation of upon these reasons First because I compare the harmony of this Gospel to the other Gospels with the credit of the Church therefore do I not make this to be an Argument absolute 2. Because I spoke of the harmony betwixt this and other Gospels and not betwixt this Gospel and other parts of scripture and therefore he playes the Sophister the discourse is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereas then he does deny my Argument by compare of it with
that though it be not found in Scripture in the term yet according to equivalence But what saith Bellarmin in his 3. b. de sacr Euch. cap. 23. Etiamsi Scriptura quam supra adduximus videatur nobis tam clara ut possit cogere hominem non protervum tamen an ita fit merito dubitari potest So then the Scripture seems to him to be in this point so clear that it might compel a man not pertinacious Yet he must needs spill the milk he gives lest we should come no more to the Roman Cow But if a Scripture may be so clear to them in a point of controversie why not to us in points necessary Yea the Trent Counsel goes further in their 13 Sess They say the words do carry before them that proper and most open signification propiam illam apertissimam significationem prae se ferunt And I hope they carried a plain and most open signification did they not if they did not then here is a falsity to the Councils Declaration if they did so may Scripture have a plain and most open signification in points of faith Again if the Sacrament of extreme unction was determined by the Trent Counsel with respect to Scripture as before why should we not stand to Scripture in other points And this may be sufficient out of their own principles And as for our own principles as to the question about the properties of the Divine Persons we need not labour therein For if we hold that all things necessary are plainly set down in Scripture then it is consequent hereunto that the truth of those properties is no more necessary to be believed than according to what clearness they are delivered in by Scripture And then Secondly to answer to the point it self those opposite relations as Aquinas calleth them whereby the H. persons are distinguished in their personalities do connotate themselves sufficiently For the Father being the first Person must be of himself the Son as such must be begotten The H. Ghost since there is but one only Son as is plain in Scripture must not be begotten but proceeds which is the expression of Scrip-there Indeed there is a question whether the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son But as to this we need not consult the antient reading of the Athanasian Creed if the Mr. of the sentences may be believed who thinks there is not so vast a difference as that either part did destroy salvation And if it be absolutely necessary to believe as the Roman Church in this point why could not Pope Urban see the truth hereof in the dispute with the Greeks about it as well as our Anselm Why did he bring him into the Lists with this Preface Includamus hunc in orbe nostro tanquam alterius orbis papam And surely it seems to be as possible for the unlearned people to be saved without a positive faith herein as it was for the learned Greeks in a positive difference unless our adversaries will damn them all who hold not with them herein He goes on your second answer is destroyed by the former Answ Yes surely if our adversaries are to be our judges we need not hold our articles which we hold necessary upon the authority of the Church but upon clear Texts and clearer Texts too than they have for their transubstantiation or authority of the Church But to the main matter of my answer he makes no return I said although we believe what is said in Athanasius his creed yet therefore we are not bound to believe it upon the Authority of the Church since he would have believed it though the Church had not as he did sometimes differ from the common profession of the Church in the consubstantiality of the sonne of God And what saies he to this nothing And besides the Authority of the Church hath not it selfe equally to the passages in the Creed and to transubstantiation And therefore Scotus said that this transubstantiation was no dogma fidei before the Lateran Council as Bellarmin saies in his 3. b. de sacram Euch. 23. ch For as for the consent of the Fathers which he saies he did non read surely Scotus did very well know what it was since the consent of the Fathers is by the Schoolemen laid for the foundation of school-Divinity It remaineth therefore that both my answers may be good according to both principles Another instance of things necessary not clearly taught by Scripture he does here re-urge N. 61. namely Baptism of Infants And here he names my answer that it is not necessary for the Salvation of the Children to be baptized But here I distinguished of a necessity of praecept and a necessity of mean the former we granted the latter we denied so as that if it be not baptized it is undoubtedly damned These words do make my sense to be understood against an absolute necessity without which no possibility of Salvation To prove this I brought the Text St. Marke the 16.6 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeteh not shall be damned now this Text he saith speaketh nothing of Children And this gloss he gives upon the latter part of that Text He that believeth not and consequently would positively not be baptized shall be damned Ans He trifles I acknowledge that the Text speaks not of Infants for the drift of my discourse upon this Text was otherwise namely upon the case of those of age And my argument did runne upon advantage thus if the H. Gh. Did not reduplicate damnation upon defect of baptism to those of age then much less reason is there to exclude Infants from Salvation who may have baptism in re but in voto not as they speak This was the effect of my discourse let the point come to the pinch Though they do believe yet should they have the seale of faith but if they do not believe damnation here proceeds not upon defect of baptism but upon defect of faith which if Bellarmin had considered he would not have annexed Salvation imediately to baptism in his 2. b. de ef sacr c. 3. And not to faith but as a disposition to baptism 2. All positive refusal of baptism makes a defect of baptism but all defect of baptism doth not make even in those of age a refusal thereof Now it is casus dabilis that one of age may believe and yet may not have baptism as the necessity may fall out Shall this man be damned though he hath faith because he hath not baptism which he could not have and this was the case which the Martyr that on a suddain when one of the forty shrunke stepped in and made up the number as St. Basil relates it he believed and was not Baptized What was he damned no they will say he had baptism in voto and the baptism of bloud Well but if there were an absolute necessity of baptism as there is of faith he must
vertue and so is their Religion a politique Religion And if a man may proceed prudently in the choice of his Religion then he doth not beleive first and then understand as yet the vulgar Latin reads that text but we must understand first and then beleive Prudence is a Moderatress of actions not a mistress of Faith And how doth Prudence consist with implicite Faith which believes what it doth not know Prudence is a vertue of reason which is contradistinguished to Faith And if we may proceed prudently in the chusing of our Religion then we may well exercise the judgment of discretion in matters of Faith and therefore are not simply bound to take upon trust whatsoever their Church obtrudes He goes on Then you conclude all the force my former Argument hath it hath from Scripture Is not my Argument the better for this Yes If the Argument were grounded in Scripture it were better upon that ground than upon any other but this Argument is not good because it is not taken from Scripture Scripture is the best Argument in Thesi but in Hypothesi it is not well applied We like it well that he goes about to prove the Church by Scripture which is the highest principle But let them not give us such a sense of Scripture which belongs not to their cause unless against it In the next number which he nameth the fourth but then it seems the third is lost by the way he saith I stumble again at the senses of damnable errours Ans No N. 4. For I discourse of it by a Dilemma or disjunctive which will take in either sense but he is not willing to move this stone again therefore he stumbles at it Another Text he builds upon St. Matthew 18.17 N. 5. If he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as a publican or a Heathen Upon this he â—â—mes an argument God Commandeth us to hear the Church and obey her but no kinde of errour little or great can be incurred by following Gods command Ans I am glad he hath any such forme of discourse which would more clearly and handsomely shorten the debate we therefore answer to it passing by all discepiation about the sense of the Church there or the quality of the cause We say then if he understands the major so as that God absolutely universally commandeth us to heare and obey the Church then the conclusion were good and we could not erre in following the Church But so the minor is denied God hath not absolutely and universaly commanded us so to heare and obey the Church If he understands the major specificatively and in things lawfull then we can grant the minor but then the conclusion will not be universall will be peccant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so not conclude contradictorily to us who do not dispute here against all obedience to the Church negatively as if we would have none but against all obedience affirmatively as being not bound in faith to all commands And therefore need he not come in with a reliefe to succour his discourse by saying from me it is impossible to be obliged to assent to an errour though it be not damnable This true but not well applied to me unles he can prove Gods command for absolute obedience in whatsoever the Church proposeth But as this is true so it is pertinent for me against him that though the universal Church cannot erre in points necessary where errour would be damnative yet could we not be bound universally to follow upon that account because no man can be bound to assent to an errour though not damnative Neither doth it follow from the Text therfore meerely and purely for not hearing the Church a man is to be held a publican or a Heathen Unles he understands by not hearing not submitting if he doth not understand it so it doth not follow if he does understand it so this is not to his purpose because though we may be bound to submit to the Church yet we may not be bound to believe the Church these are two things which he should have distinguished Therefore cannot he prove from hence that the Church cannot erre He is to be accounted an Heathen or publican upon not submiting to the Church in regard of authority not upon not assenting because of infallibility And therefore though we be all bound simply to avoid excommunication yet if the case were put that we must assent to an errour or else be excommunicated we take the censure and leave the errour and if they will not have proviso with a clave non errante for the censures of the Church then what condition was Pope Honorius in who was excommunicated as before If God binds against errour and the Church as we suppose bind to it we can say presently that the Church cannot absolve without God but God can absolve without the Church And this answereth the next verse in the Gospell as he produceth it But the former Answer he would take off in the next words by an argument To swerve from Gods word is to erre But this Text proveth that the the Church cannot erre Ans The major is indeed true but the Text doth not prove the minor therefore it is false because he saith the text proveth it And indeed if she could the meerely not hearing her could not deserve that a man should deserve to be accounted according to Gods judgment a publican and heathen Ans This is denied Refractorines exposeth thereunto without acknowledgment of infallibility And yet am I still of this opinion that that Text concernes not matters of faith but of trespass betwen Brother and Brother and therefore that Text is not to his purpose This and more he saith nothing to here But yet I followed him and said that a man is not bound to believe the censure is just unles it apeare to be so To this he saies this last assertion of yours is very extravagant doctrine For the unanimous opinion of Learned men is that a man is bound to hold his superiours censure or command to be just unles the contrary appeares evident Ans first then this determination of the case by Learned men supposeth that a thing may appear evident against the superiours censure or command So that by consequence they have the unanimous opinion of Leanred men against them in two points first that a thing may be evident without the proposal of the Church for it may be evident against it 2. Then that the Church may make an injust censure or command But for his opinion he nameth three Learned men Chillingworth Hooker Laud. So he as to the first Mr. Chillingworth he hath nothing for him in his 108 nu For he maketh use of this rule In cases of uncertainty we are not to leave our superiour nor cast off his obedience nor publiquely oppose his decrees But how is this applied to our case Indeed it was his best course not to apply it Let
may not the Church of England have an Authority not limited c. And what need then of running to another Church for more authority But neither is his Text in the Hebrewes well understood or else not well aplied in his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For the establishment of a better Covenant upon better promises is not certainly intended to have respect to the visible Church for discipline but to the invisible Church for salvation It respects Christ as the Great High Priest to save his Church by the sacrificing of himself once upon the Cross for us not as King of his Church by way of an externall policy as if the Goverment of his Church were part of his Kingdome and of his Gospell If so they give the right hand of fellowship to the other Disciplinarian But also he takes it ill that the text should be limited to case of trespass betwixt Brother and Brother and he thinks rather it should belong to the cases of heresie which is a trespass committed by one Brother against all his Brothers and their dearest Mother the Church yea St. Thomas calls Schism of which heresie is alwaies guilty the highest crime a-against the whole Community Ans It is one thing to say what the text intends another to say what it may be by discourse accommodated to The direct respect of the text in the ordinary sense of the letter is clearly carried to case of trespass betwixt Brother and Brother And the Pontifician by his principles and use is ingaged to the sense of the letter prinipally But 2. dato non concesso that it should also respect case of Heresie notwithstanding also that the terms let him be to thee a Heathen or a Publican we rather referre to the Jewish Church than the Christian yet cannot he have from hence what he would namely the Churches infallibility of Censure in points of Faith For though the Church did infallibly know on which side the truth did stand in every point of Faith and therefore what was opposite thereunto for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he said and therefore that such a doctrine was to be condemned as Heretical yet since though the Church do proceed secundum allegata et probata it may be mistaken in the fact as he confesseth it may erre in the Censure as to a particular person and how then is such a person bound to subscribe to such a Censure as just because he cannot be bound to assent to that which is false as he also lately confessed It is true in civil causes though the sentence be injust I may and must pay the amercement there being no Law against the course of Law and so also in Ecclesiastical cases he that is in justly excommunicated must abide the Censure but all the Authority under Heaven can never make a man beleive in his Conscience that it is a just Censure when he knows himself not to be guilty of the fact namely publishing of an heretical Doctrine and therefore all that can be exacted by man in this case 〈◊〉 passive obedience which the Person may yield though the Conscience doth not yeild that it is a just Censure So that the text is yet preserved in its integrity against binding the Conscience to believe whatsoever is done by the Church to be right and just After this he would winde himself off gradually from supposing any infallibility of particular Churches that so all at length might be ascribed to their Church in solidum for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he said And the Authority he would have to fall upon the Pope and a Council yet he expresseth one Head of the Church and the supream Prelat of the Church So then Before when there was a professed occasion to dispute the point whether the Pope were Head of the Church he was shie and cautious and uncategorical now by the by and under the winde he can assert it so that he may not be bound to prove it We see then what reason they have to afford Prudence a good place in Religion Nullum numen ab est si sit prudentiarum And the main exercise of Ecclesiastical authority the key is laid upon his shoulder He is bound to use the fullness of his power to suppress the arising heresie Now surely they are bound ingenuously to speak out whether they mean this fulness of his Authority of all the Authority he hath or of all Authority that the Church hath There is a fulness of the Fountain there is a fulness of the Vessel Do they allow him the fulness of the Vessel So indeed the Trent Council seemed rather in a good part thereof to incline when they urged so much to have the title of the Council to be established The Representative of the whole Church for had this proceeded his power had been sunk in their power But if he be the Head of the Church my Adversary must allow him the fulness of the Fountain then the controversie is determined betwixt the Jesuits and the Sorbonists and the latter are cast in the suit But then what need of a Council towards infallibility when he hath all the Authority in himself as being the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And then my Adversary hath not pleased the Court and the Jesuite in joyning the Council as partners in the Authority Nor do the words ensuing bear good respect to the Pope as Head of the Church namely that he may forbid if he feareth danger in the Doctrine that no such Doctrine may be published until the Church shall think it fit Are not these diminuent terms of the Head indeed almost comminuent if we may say so as if the Head of the universal Church the ordinary Pastour and Vicar of Christ Successor of St. Peter could not presently see that there was danger in heretical Doctrine or could not see whether it were heretical doctrine until the Church shall think it fit I had thought the Pope had been an Independent and should not have depended upon the Church for a final resolution at a point heretical And if the Church must meet in a Council to consider of it and all Popes be as disaffected to a Council as some were to the Trent Council what shall become of the people in this danger of heresie I had thought a Council had been but the vicar of Christ His Counsail and though he did condiscend so far to make use of their Counsail yet he could do all alone by his own Authority We heard before that particular Prelats had Authority not limited and must my Adversaries Supreme Prelat be bound to wait for a General Council And then all must be as St. Paul saith Heb. 13.17 Obey their Prelats So he Ans This he means of Prelats not in confuso but in conventu And to these infallibility should be annexed So then Those Prelats who are here meant are infallible Particular Prelats are here meant therefore they are infallible and so there will be no need either
the Church visible as the onely subject if it be not then the Text doth not prove absolute infallibility but onely security against damning errours or practice Not that the Church visible is not a mean of that security but therefore not a mean universally infallible but with specification Sixthly you ask how shall ignorant people be divinely perswaded that the Council is General To this he answers by giving us the means or signs of this knowledge First publique Summons Secondly publique appearance of Prelats made upon these summons from all parts of the world Thirdly publick setting publick subscribing publick divulging their Decrees and Definitions acknowledged truly to be theirs by all present denied by no man to be theirs with the least show of probability no more than such an Act is denied to be the Act of such a Parliament Ans Is here all The question was how shall ignorant people be divinely perswaded that the Council is general And now we must be answered with a probability If that which may be known probably be known divinely eo ipso upon that account then a probable Argument may make an infallible conclusion And why then do they urge infallibility of the Church for point of Faith which they can never prove It less would have made Faith they should not in prudence have combated for infallibility But as long as the conclusion follows the worse part and the effect doth not exceed the cause and the assent cannot be higher than the ground of it this answer of his is too short for the question Secondly were not all these necessary conditions of a General Council belonging to the Trent Council And why then was not the French Church perswaded to take it for a General Council Why doth the French Church say transeat concilium Tridentinum Therefore that which he saies is not so that all these motives make it evidently credible to the ignorant and to the learned that this is the true definition of the church It is evidently credible to neither So that though the Definition of the Church were infallible in it self as they say Scriprure is yet is it not infallible to us as they say Scripture is not without the Church Therefore though the Definition were infallible yet cannot they thereby prove the Council infallible but they are first to prove the Council infallible then that which is a true definition of the church will be infallibly true because truly infallible So that he needs not tell us that if we beleive all her Definitions to be true we will also believe this Definition to be true since a particular is included in an universal But before we believe all her Definitions to be true we must demand some infallible assurance that such a Council is truly universal and that an universal Council is truly infallible Otherwise we may believe one Definition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be true and yet because not proposed infallibly we cannot believe all her Definitions to be true And therefore hath he not extricated himself out of insuperable difficulties As for the Hypothesis of the Trent Council which I said was contradicted by the French Catholiques he saies their Definitions concerning Faith were never opposed by France Ans Opposition is formally indeed in contradiction But if they were denied onely it were sufficient to us Do my Adversaries think they may be saved notwithstanding this denial This surely they deny not Well then if they may be saved notwithstanding their denial then we may be saved also though we do not subscribe some definitions of a Church Then we are not bound absolutly under danger of damnation to believe all definitions of the Church Then the Church hath not infallible authority But 2. their withdrawing of their assent must draw in one of these two things either that it was not a General Council and this interpretativi makes a contradiction or that General Councils are not infallible and this in effect makes a contradiction too Yea 3. Did not the King of France write to the Trent Council under the name of a Conventus which they construed in derogation to a General Council As appears in the Trent History And 4. As for the distinction of the definitions concerning faith as if they were not so disliked but some things ordained for practice seemed less suitable to the particular state of that Kingdom This runnes out as it comes in For those things towards practice were ordained by the same Divine authority were they not Or did not the Holy Ghost assist them as to things of practice If not then proper obedience is not due to Councils because proper obedience respects things of practice but indeed the whole Council was rejected in gross and therefore when Cardinal Ossat mediated for the King of France with the Pope and the Cardinal urged the peace for him without the condition of accepting the Trent Council he wrote to the King what the Pope said one morning to him because he would not receive the Council that he had no more rest that night then a damned soule in Ossat's Letters And as to the seventh answer concerning some in the Trent Council who had Titles of Bishops Bishop Iewell affirmes it in his Apol. Par. 6. P. 62.5 and he names St. Robert of Scotland and Mr. Pates of England And the former is named in the Trent History to have been a Bishop of the post if we may say so of him for his ability in riding post so well And if forty Bishops do all agree in the same point of faith as for a good while there were not many more what can be be concluded against a possibility that they might be all sworne servants of the Pope And he that will read the Trent History will finde sufficient cause not to suspect but to believe that Council not to have had due moralities much less infallibility His best way then to secure a Council against irregularities is by the assistance of the Holy Ghost that nothing shall happen destructive of secure direction Ans this is not sufficient that nothing be destructive of secure direction against damnation if he means it now so but against all errour for this he is ingaged to make good by former denying of that distinction of errour damnative and errour not damnative Yet here he seems to warpe in this point 2. The morality of the Synod is antecedent to its infallible assistance Then we must have all defects of legality and proceeding removed before we can be perswaded of its infallibility 3. why did he except against Cajaphas for not being the true High Priest if now Cajaphas may Prophesie not knowing what he doth before the spirit of truth sent to teach the Church all truth shall faile in his duty So then notwithstanding there be not a legall High Priest the spirit of God shall infallibly act the Council as he did the Apostles But here is a double duty for them first that the spirit of God
either abstractly from the speaker or complexely with the speaker in the former it is considered with respect to the matter and so he said well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we are not to look at so much the author as the matter in the latter respect it is respective to the motive and so I am more induced by the Church though not determined And therfore as to those termes to whose saying you would give an infallible assent when you see that which he saith to be conformable to Scripture we say that the termâ— saying is distinguishable into the object purely or into the object with the act and authour In the former there is no difference in the latter there is we may believe that which is said when we do not believe him that saies it And so may we believe rather the Church whose office it is to propose truth as he confesseth it is not the Divells Neither did we by these answers smother up any thing which clearly overthroweth our replie who say we must follow the Church onely so far as we see her follow Scripture That which he saith here doth no way weaken our replie It hath been answered before and the strength of it broken For first though they could not see at all how far the Church followed the Scripture for the first two thousand years and the barbarous Nations never having seen the Scripture did truely believe doth this hinder us from holding now that we are to believe the Church in points of faith no further then we see grounds for what they said out of Scripture take it of faith divine and in things of faith it is yet good And their instances do not evacuate it Distingue tempora distinguish the times God might in that time and season of immediate revelation work then a faith immediately which now is not reasonable to expect ordinarily as appears by the first Chap. of the Ep. to the Hebrews the first ver Privilegia paucâ—rum non faciunt regulam communem Secondly the Faith of the barbarous nations was not terminated in the Church as if they had believed the Church and therefore believed that which was said by them But was terminated in the matter which was said by the Church The Church was instrumental to the knowledge of the matter and might be instrumental as to dispose them for faith But the authority of the Church was not the formal cause of the act of faith And Knotts himself is loath to assert it And this is that which Tertullian hath said non ex persona fides sed ex fide persona aestimanda est We are not to esteem the doctrine by the person but the person by the doctrine And the tradition which St. Irenaeus speaks of was the sum of the Christian Faith which is in Scripture So he as before and so St. Cyril of Hierusalem vnderstands it as may appear by that of Cyril in his fourth Catech. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we must not deliver any thing in the divine and holy mysteries of faith without the divine Scriptures This is the Epilogue of the Chap. and is of use onely to tell me what he hath done I think not done before N. 38. and this is all the answer he gives me for taking away what he had said out of two places of Scripture forementioned towards infallibility Before he referred me for satisfaction to the due place here he referrs me back again And as for any reply to my answer out of the Fathers or my use of them he saies to me you know why I resolve to pass them Yes particularly why he saies nothing more to what I said about St. Austins testimony in his Epistle against the Manichee If I may be interpreter it is thus resolved he had good reason to pass them because they pass him And so we have made an end of his long but not hard Chapter CHAP. V. No Church is our Iudge infallible then not the Roman This Chapter which concerns the Hypothesis should injustice have been longer but he reduceth the proof of it to a small pittance and if all the Churches which submit not themselves to the Bishop of Rome as their supreme Pastour be of no better proportion it will be Catholick for all that do submit but not for all But since he is so short in this we will be even with him and bring all he saies in this second Treatise for so some times he calles it into one Syllogism the Church is the Judge infallible appointed in businesses of Religion No other but the Roman is this Church therefore To the proposition we have said enough before He would now make good the assumption or praesumption as we might speak supposing the proposition to be demonstrated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and therefore he quarrels with me because we except against his supsition of it It is true had the major been a maxim irrefragable then there had been more reason to blame us for exception against it and for not applying our selves in present address to the minor but since we see no cause nor the Churches of God why the proposition should be swallowed we call upon him to make good the thesis that there is a Church appointed as infallible Judge in businesses of Religion and therefore we told him that he might as well prove he had right to Utopia because he only claimes it whereas he should first prove the An sit whether there be such a place And therefore if he would have had us say nothing to the questioning of the supposition he should have made it stronger first and then should not have concluded bravingly that therefore all he had said of the Church was to be applied to the Roman no other being infallible as in the former treatise num 28 Well but he must prove his minor N. 2. because all other Churches do not lay claime to this infallibility and are demonstrated to be fallible we grant the Antecedent without any proof and his proof was not so good as his proposition But therefore it belongs to them to be infallible we deny the consequence We deny the Title upon the claime And he is angry because we make his plea from the claim to be weak And the weaknes of it appeares in that it is weaker grounded upon a true supposition nor is it very sound in the proceeding of the consequence in the first regard we say debile fundamentum fallit opus And therefore since that is one of his principles his conclusion must be naught as before His consequence he proveth thus the Protestant Chucrh and all other Churches different from the Roman do Iudge themselves acknowledge themselves declare and profess themselves to be fallible and that according to infallible Scripture If then any of these Churches be infallible in what they Iudge and declare for truth grounded in Scripture they are infallible in this their Iudging and declaring themselves to be fallible therefore infallibly they
the Word or by the Sword And therefore consideratis considerandis if he hath no other hold for his Hypothesis he hath none And so Lycurgus the Lawmaker might well die in Crete for his fiction that the laws he gave the people came from Apollo of Delphos As to the charge against their Church about the Millenary opinion he would here answer it N. 3. that it was not admitted by the supreme pastour of the Church defining with the Church assembled in a Council Ans first If this were a reason it would destroy all the traditions for three hundred years because they were not admitted by the supreme Pastour defining with the Church in a general Council for they say there was no council for the first 300 years But secondly was not tradition then an infallible rule if it was that is no answer if not the Scripture or there was no infallible rule at all and this contradicts them in both for they say there was an infallible rule and not Scripture But he would also say it was not generally admitted by the Church diffused or universal Ans But I hope the diffused Church adds no authority to a matter of faith This was indeed Alphonsus a Castro's opinion but my adversary was not of capacity for that conceit because he annexeth authority to the Pope and a Council and if the diffused Church which includes the people have any moment toward credibility why is it denied to them to have the Judgment of private discretion since their consent also makes a suffrage And as for the diverse Fathers not holding it as a Tradition they may excuse us certainly unless they will prove it He should not surely prove it by Iustin for he is accounted for it himself though many did not acknowledg it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is sufficient for a Tradition Is it not If not let them shew more for other Traditions which they hold if so then that went for one And then the many were not Fathers St. Austin otherwise Neither doth this conclude against Catholick Tradition in all use but may in point of faith till we be as certain of Tradition Till that time I am satisfied with the former place of Cyrill of Ierusalem and when we shall be as certain of Tradition derived from the Apostles times through all ages of the Church in points of Faith then we shall not urge this plea that if this opinion of an Apostolical Tradition was so current in the Church upon the credit of one Papias at first how shall we be ever sure in the account of Traditions which is which N. 4. He hath learned to speak here high that he might at least at last go off with noyse He calls it a demonstration which yet by his own words is to be held up by a supposition Neither upon the supposition supposed will it be very neare a demonstration for it concludes not per se but by accident and also it concludes rather or primarily negatively that other Churches are not the infallible Judge And if the discourse were good it would come to this that other Churches should fare the worst for their modesty and the Roman should fare the better for their impudency And if the antient Church was infallible notwithstanding it did not say that it was infallible or else they differ from the antient Church in an essentiall praedicate then their Church is noâ— infallible notwithstanding it saies that it is infallible So then upon the whole matter his supposition is not admitted and therefore could they well prove their Church to be fairer for this priviledge then any other the supposition being admitted yet since it is not admitted it proves nothing in re nor by their own confession And yet if it were admitted his discourse would not make him to be as good as his word in a demonstration And yet this ratiocination of his instead of an un-answerable argument against us but is proved not to be so may be an unanswerable argument against them that they lie at catch and have need of that which all other Churches have left and also it proves that they have no better proof What I said more to what he said more by anticipation he saies nothing to But he ingageth himself in the end to a better account of the Roman Church So then I have for the present my discharge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet his Epiphonema is this Petrae durities nulli magis quam ferienti nota And not to be behind hand with him I return him that of St. Basil 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 FINIS Errata which the judicious and can did Reader is desired to observe PAge 71 l. 9. r. uncreated p. 84. l. 6. r. 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way as is known but this we shall have fuller occasion to speake of hereafter Secondly whereas he saies that I say by meer reading of Scripture c. he supposeth that which is not so For I do not deny the use of other meanes to further us towards our assent intrinsecall arguments from Scripture extrinsecall of the Church but that which privately we resolve our faith of Scripture to be the word of God in is the autopistie of Scripture which God by faith infused shews unto us And by Catarinus his reasoning in the Trent Council about subjective certitude of grace private faith is not inferior to the Catholick faith in point of certaintie but onely in universalitie Thirdly the Church according to my Adversary hath its power of binding to faith by a Generall Council with the Popes confirmation of the Decrees then let us know by what Council all the parts of Scripture were confirmed by a Generall Council with the Popes consent for the first six hundred years somewhat might be put in as towards the use of some parts of the Apocryphall books but it doth not appear that they were canonized as to faith nor any of the Canonicall books declared by them as quo ad nos authentick For they were wont to meddle with little but emergent questions whereas of those parts of Scripture which were generally received there was no question whether they were the word of God And being not received by the authoritie of a Council establishing them what ground have those who differ from us to receive them since they say the infallible Authoritie is in the Church Representative with the Popes confirmation He goes on And it must be a far surer discoverie than that by which we discover the Sun by his light for this discovery can onely ground a naturall certaintie the other must ground a supernaturall not certainty but infallibilitie Ans The supernaturall habit of faith hath it felf more to intelligence than to science Intelligence is known to be that naturall habit whereby the understanding is disposed to assent to the truth of principles when the terms of those principles are known And faith doth beare more proportion to this as being the supernaturall habit in regard of cause whereby we are disposed to believe supernaturall verities whereof the first is by our opinion that the Scripture is the word of God taking the Scripture materially Now as the principles naturall are seen through their own light by the naturall habit of intelligence so are the supernatural principles seen through their own light by the supernaturall habit of faith And as certainly as I see the Sun by its light with mine eye so certainly do I see the truth of naturall principles by the naturall habit of intelligence and as certainly as I see the veritie of naturall principles by intelligence so do I see supernaturall verities by the supernaturall habit of faith yet not so evidently as I see the Sun by its light or naturall principles through their light But it seems by my Adversary that this will not serve for he urgeth not onely for a certainty but infallibilitie To this we answer first Take certaintie properly and I think there is no fundamentum in re for this distinction It may be because we are wont to use the term of infallibilitie to points of faith we think that whatsoever is certain is not infallible and it is true in regard of the manner or meane of certaintie so that whatsoever is certain is not infallible for so certaintie seems to be more generall but certainly whatsoever is to us certaine is also infallible as we take it in a generall sense But secondly if there be any degree of infallibilitie above certaintie we have it by this way of Divine faith infused by the Spirit of God because we are most sure of this principle that God cannot deceive nor be deceived therefore what we take upon his word we are most certain of and more than by our own discourse and reason for that is in the nature of it more imperfect Thirdly this is not so wisely considered to straine our faith to the highest peg of utmost infallibilitie as they determine the ground of it namely the Authoritie of the Church because the Authoritie of it as it is contradistinguished to the Spirit and word is but humane and as it is resolved into the word by the Spirit so it comes into a coincidence with us Fourthly whereas he sometimes upbraided us with an essentiall defect of faith because we take it not by their way of the Church it appeares yet that some of our Church have in case of martyrdome held the faith of Scripture and of points taken from thence as infallibly as they have held Scripture upon tenure of the Church And it seems ours did not hold the Scripture or the points upon the authoritie of the Church for they differed from the Ponteficians unto the death about the Church and about points of Doctrine which the Papist urged they denied notwithstanding they were Doctrines of their Church Now according to the Pontifician argument if they had received the Scripture by the Authoritie of the Church they must upon the same reason have received every Doctrine proposed by the Church And therefore it seems they had a faith of Scripture infallible without the Roman infallibilitie Secondly the Spirit of God speaking in the Church is to them the efficient of faith But the Spirit of God speaks also in the Scripture If not how do they prove that the Spirit of God speakes in the Church if it does then may we believe him at first word and immediately as to the Church As to what he saith secondly that he hath shewed in his last chap. second Num. that a review of the definitions of a Council untill they be resolved into the rule of Scripture doth open a wide gap to heresie I need say no more than what hath been said in answer thereunto His meer saying so doth not surely make it so nor is it probable for it doth not open a gap to heresie materiall because Scripture is the rule of truth nor yet to heresie formall because it may be done without opposition to the Councils For simple dissent doth not include formall opposition But yet further he saith And for your importance of the matter I will here further declare in an example which hereafter will stand me in much use Let us take an Arrian Cobler to this man This your Doctrine giveth the finall review of the Council of Nice Ans Yes I must interpose in the severall passages of his storie of the case it doth but how It doth not give a review by way of authoritie to others but he is to take his own libertie for his own satisfaction in point of faith Otherwise he believes he knows not what and so in proportion he comes under the censure of Christ upon the Samaritan woman in the 4. of St. John the 22. Ye