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A59787 An answer to a late Dialogue between a new Catholick convert and a Protestant to prove the mystery of the Trinity to be as absurd a doctrine as transubstantiation : by way of short notes on the said dialogue. Sherlock, William, 1641?-1707. 1687 (1687) Wing S3261; ESTC R10173 11,401 17

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An ANSWER To a late DIALOGUE Between a New Catholick Convert AND A PROTESTANT To prove the MYSTERY of the TRINITY to be as absurd a Doctrine as TRANSUBSTANTIATION By way of short Notes on the said Dialogue Licensed December 7th 1686. LONDON Printed for Thomas Bassett at the George near St. Dunstan's Church in Fleet-street 1687. A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A New Catholick Convert AND A PROTESTANT Concerning the Doctrines of the Trinity and Transubstantiation a THIS new Catholick Convert begins well for the first thing he learns is to believe the Trinity to be a groundless absurd and unreasonable Doctrine and then to believe whatever the Church teaches if it be not more absurd than the Doctrine of the Trinity this is a great Improvement of Faith which we Protestants can never attain to for we cannot perswade our Understandings or our Faith to digest Absurdities but let us hear their Dialogue A. You cannot imagine how much I am overjoy'd to see you I have been big with Discourse these three days for want of Utterance You may remember when we talk'd together last b we parted in a Dispute concerning Transubstantiation and the holy Trinity of their equal Reasonableness and Authority I must confess I was not at that time so thorowly arm'd with Reasons to shew you the Parallel But since I have given my self a little leisure to consider of it and I am perswaded I shall be able to give you Satisfaction b This is a little mistake if we may guess at their last Discourse by this Dialogue for the Design is not to prove That Transubstantiation and the holy Trinity have equal Reasonableness and Authority but that neither of them are reasonable or have any Authority Now though we may allow them to make as bold with Transubstantiation as they please yet we cannot but be sensible of that Dishonour which is done to common Christianity by exposing the most sacred and venerable Mystery of it to the Scorn and Derision of Infidels and Hereticks For sure they cannot think it any great credit to the Doctrine of the Trinity that it cannot be proved either by Tradition Scripture or Reason B. Sir you know I am always glad of any Opportunity to gain your good Company but especially upon so good an Occasion I 'le assure you I am not nor ever was an Enemy to Catholick Communion and if I had not too just a Cause I should never suffer my self in that which without reasonable Grounds might be call'd a wilful Schism A. I have no reason to doubt your Integrity and therefore shall not question that I shall only desire the liberty to press my old Argument c That you would rely on the Authority of the Church I must confess you have often question'd the doing of it but I am sure when you shall consider there are Mysteries as well as Doctrines in the Christian Religion and when you know that d Mysteries are not to be fathom'd by Natural Reason you must needs conclude that in some Cases your e safest way is to trust Tradition Now certainly no one can give us so good an account of That as the Church c This opens the Scene and shews the whole design of this Dialogue to bring men to rely on the Authority of the Church and it is worth the while to consider what a notable way this is The new Convert perswades his Protestant Friend to fling away Sense and Reason and Scripture and his own private Judgment and to rely wholly on the Authority of the Church for when these are out of the way we may believe the Church in any thing No saies the Protestant I can't believe that which is unreasonable and absurd whoever tells it me Convert Don't you believe the Doctrine of the Trinity Protest Yes very heartily Convert Why then Transubstantiation it self which you Protestants make such a noise about is not more unreasonable and has as good foundation in Tradition and Scripture as the Doctrine of the Trinity Protest Say you so my Friend then why must I believe the Trinity Conv. Because the Church teaches it and for the same reason you must believe Transubstantiation Protest Hold there Sir what if I will believe neither then I hope I need not rely upon the Authority of the Church Conv. But you confess you must believe the Trinity Protest Yes if it be founded on Scripture and Tradition and do not contradict the Reason of Mankind as I have thought hitherto but if you can perswade me otherwise I will believe it no longer unless you can tell me for what reason I must believe that which I have no reason to believe Wretched men who care not what becomes of Christian Religion if they can but establish the Authority of their Church nay care not how much they dishonour the Church itself for it is no great Commendation of Church-Authority in matters of Faith that the only use of it is to make men believe without Reason or in contradiction to it For it seems were the Christian Faith reasonable there were no need of relying on the Churches Authority at least they would want one of the best Arguments to prove it d There are some Mysteries above Reason none contrary to it as Transubstantiation is e The universal Tradition of the Church in conjunction with Scripture I grant is a very good Foundation for our Faith but what shall we do when there is no certain Tradition as he proves there is not for the Doctrine of the Trinity for though we should allow that the safest way is to receive these Traditions from the Church yet we cannot receive them from her if she have them not and she cannot have them if there be none and we must conclude there are none if they be not visible For the Churches word whatever Authority it have is not Tradition B. But Sir to be short What relation has this to the present Parallel of the Trinity and Transubstantiation The Authority of the Church is another Point as disputable as That A. Very much For as f These two Doctrines have equal ground from Scripture Reason and Tradition so ' is there the same Obligation of your receiving one as well as the other And indeed I have since wonder'd at my own Profession g while a Protestant to think how blind and partial I was But I must confess because we are in a Dispute it is better laying by such aggravating Circumstances and indeed I cannot but be sensible what Prejudices such Discourses always make and therefore I shall speak nothing more of that nature f That is none at all as he attempts to prove and if the Trinity have no better then Transubstantiation it has none and then let him show how we are obliged to believe either as I observed before g For what for not believing Transubstantiation as well as the Trinity Did he then while a Protestant believe the Doctrine of the Trinity to be as unreasonable and to have no
better Foundation in Scripture and Tradition then Transubstantiation For otherwise he was not partial in believing one and rejecting the other and if he did he never understood his Religion and then no wonder that he takes Sanctuary in a Church which requires no use of his understanding B. But to return to the main Point I must tell you I do not think them equally grounded on Scripture Reason or Tradition and indeed you may remember that was the old Point in dispute with us A. b Well Sir to shew you your Error I shall begin with the several Particulars in their Order and so first as to the Tradition of Transubstantiation Now 't is evident That has been deliver'd with less interruption than that of the Holy Trinity That Mystery was question'd in the very Infancy of the Church nay not only so but the Arians prevail'd much against it about the beginning of the Fourth Age. On the other side Transubstantiation lay unquestion'd and quiet a long time and when it came to debate there was no such opposition as that of Arius to call in question the Authority of its Tradition the Church receiv'd it unanimously and in that sense continu'd till rash Reason attempted to fathom the unlimited Miracles and Mysteries of God. h Here is a great mixture of confidence and fallacy Confidence is asserting what is false that Transubstantiation has been delivered with less interruption than that of the Holy Trinity for none of the Ancient Fathers make the least mention of it neither the name nor the thing was known for many hunder'd years after Christ. He himself modestly grants that the Fathers are not half so express in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation as they are in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity And when he grants half you may safely conclude they say nothing of it but the fallacy consists in attributing this silence of the Fathers about Transubstantiation to the unquestionableness of the Tradition when it was wholly owing to the Ignorance of the Doctrine It was not opposed in those days because they never heard of Transubstantiation not because it was universally believed which is a reason indeed why it should not be opposed but not why it should never be mentioned Whereas from that opposition Arius and his followers made to the Doctrine of the Trinity in the beginning of the Fourth Century and that great alarum it gave immediately to the Christian Church it is evident that it was the received Faith at and before that time for otherwise Arius would not have opposed it nor Catholick Bishops so Zealously have defended it B. But the Fathers are not half so express in the Doctrin of Transubstantiation as they are in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity A. That 's true and there 's very good Reason for it Transubstantiation has not been a Doctrine so long in dispute and 't is not customary for Men to argue unquestionable Truths And whereas you may think that Transubstantiation has of late receiv'd such shrewd Repulses by your Books I 'le assure you you forget how much the true Catholick Zeal destroys the Seeds of Heresies Do you think that so many Bishops not only of the Eastern but of the Western Church also could be Arians and yet suppose that that Opinion wanted i as Plausible a pretence of Tradition Certainly if you consider that you cannot think to establish the Doctrine of the Trinity by Tradition more than Transubstantiation especially considering the strong Footsteps of that Sect even in the Fathers now extant I would cite you some of them but that they are not so much to my main Design and indeed my aim is Brevity i Arius did not set up upon Tradition but upon a pretence of Scripture and Reason and if Arianism had had so good a pretence to Tradition it is strange it should have been thought so new and surpizing a Doctrine at that time It was never heard of before Arius and that is proof enough that it was no Tradition of the Church though afterwards they endeavoured to force some expressions in the Writings of the Antient Fathers as well as of the Scriptures to countenance that Heresie B. Well Sir 't is true we cannot so well plead Tradition to what you have urg'd and especially when I call to mind k that Arianism was confirm'd by a General Council But we alledge an higher ground we stand upon the Authority of the Scriptures and indeed that is the true Thuchtone of all Doctrine k I hope he does not mean the Council of Nice which was the first General Council and assembled on purpose to Establish the Catholick Faith in this point and to condemn Arius A●d does the Church of Rome own any for a General Council which confirmed Arianism The Council of Syrmium indeed where Liberius Bishop of Rome Subcribe● the Arian Confession may bid fair for it if a Council of Eastern and Western Bishops confirmed by the Pope may pass for a General Council but what then becomes of the Infallibility of Popes and Councils and Tradition This is a desperate Man who will not spare the Church of Rome her self nor General Councils if they stand in his way rather than allow any Tradition for the Doctrine of the Trinity A. 'T is true if you will follow the Catholick Church l and take the Scriptures literally you may discover the Mystery of the Holy Trinity in them but if you once yield to Figurative Allusions and Interpretations the Arians will be as much too hard for you as you imagin your selves to be for the Catholick Church m In short both Doctrines will be at a loss and both equally require the Authority of the Church to support them l If the Trinity can be prov'd by Scripture that is all we desire for I am sure Transubstantiation cannot and as for literal or figurative Expositions of Scripture neither of them must be always used but as the Subject Matter and Circumstances of the place require m I thought the Christian Church had been built upon the Faith of the Holy Trinity not that supported by the Authority of the Church unless the Church can support her own Foundation if there can be no Christian Church without Baptism in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost that is without professing the Faith and Worship of the ever blessed Trinity this Doctrine must be believ'd before there can be any Church on whose Authority we must believe it and therefore he has chose the unfittest Doctrine to build on Church Authority that he could have thought on B. O no surely the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is more express in Scriptures than so A. To satisfie you that what I say is Truth because I may represent the Parallel the clearer n I will personate an Arian that Sect so often condemn'd by the Ancient Church and you shall see his Plea against the Trinity is as fair as yours against Transubstantiation And because this is the main