Transubstantiation but you haue purged him to your perpetuall shame as testifieth your Index expurgatorius the title is vt liber Bertrami how the booke of Bertrame beeing amended may be tolerated But let it be graunted that the truth of doctrine was not publike for many yeares yet might there be a Church For at the comming of our Sauiour Christ the Pharisies had the gouernement and were blinde guides yet was there a Church and a number of chosen people as Ioseph Marie Simon and Anna. In Elias time when religion was corrupt the Lord had thousands which neuer bowed their knees to Baal But I returne the argument Largenes of dominion is a note of the Church But for many hundred yeares after Christ our Church had largenes of dominion Ergo. Secondly the Doctor fearing least our Church should flourish and dilate it selfe affirmeth that the Church is now old to make her flourish in her old age is to make her a monster Verily we acknowledge that shee flourished in her young age if these titles of young and old may be attributed to her but shall not the Church flourish in her old age as you speake M. Doctour what then is become of largenes of dominion If largenes of dominion be a note of the true Church then it shall be alwaies ample and large Indeede thankes be to God our Church now is ample as testifie England Scotland Denmarke Suetia Saxonie Helvetia and other countries and therefore the Doctour varieth in this point But that Antichrist shall be reuealed and the Church increase it is plaine out of the 2. Thess 2. where Paul prophesieth that the Lord shall consume him with the spirit of his mouth This to be done we see it daily with our eyes for by the preaching of the Gospel Antichrist is continually lessened Moreouer in this reason the Doctour affirmeth that persecution of any moment is not against Papists but onely in England The persecution of Papists in England is for treason as their owne writings testifie The title of the booke is this Important coÌ„siderations which ought to mooue all true Catholikes to acknowledge that the proceedings of her Maiestie since the beginning of her highnes raigne haue bin both mild and mercifull The Rhemists are contrarie to this Doctour for they writing vpon the 20. of the Rev. affirme Catholikes to be persecuted not onely in England but also in Scotland Flaunders and other places thus well heretikes agree amongst themselues To be briefe the Papists are so persecuted that they are benè habiti well liking as all men know and haue affluentiam honorum store of goods But the Doctour desireth to be told whether against all learned Physitians and against all Lawyers one or two of later yeares are to be credited I answer if they haue the truth on their sides they are Might not Michaiah haue beene posed with this question who was but one against foure hundred prophets Did not Paphnutius stand vp in the Councell of Nice and teach that a heauie yoke should not be laid on those which were dedicated to the ministerie Here was one against that famous Councell This question might well haue beene demaunded of Eugenius who would not obey the Councell of Basill 1â—00 de gest conc Ba. Aeneas Silvius writeth thus Neque in Concilio dignitas patrum sed ratio spectanda est in a Councell the dignitie of men is not to be regarded but reasons And againe Non ergo cuiusvis Episcopi mendacium quamvis ditissimi veritati praeponam pauperis praesbyteri I will not preferre Bishops vntruths before an Elders truth though one be rich and the other very poore What should I speake of Athanasius condemned in the Councell of Millan Panormitane is plaine Whiâ—ak 34. p. cont Dur. Plus credendum est vel simplici Laico scripturam proferenti quà m toti simul Concilio A lay-man is more to be beleeued alleadging scripture then a whole Councell Hierome translated the scriptures according to the Hebrew whereas before the authoritie of the 70. Ann. 39â— interpreters was currant yet saith Sigebert praevaluit authoritas Hebraica veritatis the authoritie of the Hebrew truth preuailed Hieroms act was against inveteratum vsum Ecclesiae the auncient custome of the Church Whereas he calleth Luther a loose Apostata and M. Calvin a soare backt priest for Sodomie I doubt not but that for such slaunders of these men good men shall more and more abhorre poperie And for thy satisfying Christian Reader I desire thee to read that which Erasmus hath written concerning Luther and that which is printed by Beza concerning Calvins life Sodomie is too common among Papists as witnesseth Picus Mirandula in his oration to Leo the tenth in these words Sacrae aedes ac templa lenonibus ac calamytis commissa Churches and temples are committed to bauds and boies abused contrarie to nature With Picus agreeth Mantuan Sanctus ager scurris venerabilis ara cynaedis seruit honorandae divum Ganymedibus aedes The Church lands are giuen to common lesters the sacred altars allotted to wantons the temples of Saints to boies prouided for filthie lusts Lastly whereas he faith that if he should refuse the Catholike Romane religion his Ancetours would vse such speeches as these doest thou condemne all our doings doest thou send vs all to hell c. I answer that God hath not referred vs from his word to our fathers Walke not in the precepts of your fathers Ezek. 20. neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their Idols saith the Lord. We condemne not our fathers except they condemned theÌ„selues Dei iudicia occulia sed semper iusta Gods iudgements are secret but alwaies iust If our fathers held the foundation as I hope many did they might be saued Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of ignorance sinneth lesse then he to whome knowledge is reuealed I conclude with Cyprian Si solus Christus audiendus if onely Christ must be heard we must not regard what any before vs hath thought meete but what Christ himselfe hath done for a man must not follow custome but Gods truth And with Prudentius who answereth Symmachus his obiection Nobis sequendi sunt parentes we must follow our fathers frustrà igitur solitis prava observatio inhaeres in vaine dost thou cleaue to custome ô wicked obedience The sixth reason Miracles M. Doctour Noli illud tà m confidenter affirmare quod socij tui falsum esse docuerunt auouch not that so boldly which your fellowes haue taught to be false True miracles say you were neuer wrought but by them which were of the true religion for that they are done onely by the power of God The Rhemists vpon the 9. of Marke are of another minde for thus they write Miracles are wrought sometimes by the name of Iesus whatsoeuer the man be when it is for the proofe of truth or for the glorie of God insomuch that Iulian the Apostata himselfe did driue away deuills with
speake Aut verò congregatione synodi opus erat vt aperta pernicies damnaretur quasi nulla haeresis aliquando nisi Synodi congregatione damnata sit cum potius rarissimae inveniantur propter quas damnandas necessitas talis extiterit multoque sint atque incomparabiliter plures quae vbi extiterunt illic improbari damnarique meruerunt atque indè per caeteras terras devitandae innotescere potuerunt Was it necessarie a Councell should be gathered to condemne open mischiefes as if no heresie had beene condemned without a Councell whereas very few are found for the condemning of which there hath bin such necessitie and there are without comparison moe which deserued to be condemned where they did spring vp that being so condeÌ„ned they might be made known vnto other countries Out of this testimonie I gather these two things first that it may be an heresie though not condemned by a Councell secondly I gather that in Augustines time there were few heresies for the condemning of which Councells were gathered together To proceede You say whosoeuer were condemned by Councells confirmed by the See Apostolicall were euer deemed and indeede were heretikes What say you to Cyprian De vnico lap cap. 14. whom as Augustine reporteth Stephanus Bishop of Rome censuit excommunicandum esse deemed to be excommunicated 8. book 4 chap. Bellar. lib. 2. de con cap. 5. Eusebius saith that scripsit vniuersis conterminis gentibus he wrote to all countries that were neare that he would not communicate with them because they did rebaptize heretikes Was Cyprian either an heretike or of that minde that whatsoeuer the Pope did condemne was heresie why did he not then yeild to Stephanus who was Pope For I thinke you meane by the See Apostolike the Pope otherwise you condemne Eugenius who saide as Aeneas Sylvius reporteth that tantum aebest vt generalibus Concilijs debeat obedire vt se dicat tunc maximè mereri cum concilij decreta contemnit It is so farre from him that he should obey generall Councells that he doth then best deserue when he doth contemne the decrees of the same But I reduce your Argument into a syllogisme They which are condemned by the Councell of Trent are heretikes But the Protestants are condeÌ„ned by the Councell of Trent Ergo they are heretikes I denie the proposition for it is against all reason that they which are parties that are partiall that are accused should be the onely iudges Augustine saith Solis Canonicis scriptis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum I ought to consent onely to the Canonicall scriptures without any refusall De nâ—t grat â— Nicolaus de Clemangijs writeth that Ecclesia quandoque contraria determinat the Church doth sometimes determine contraries in Fas vâ—ta ex Againe Trita regula est ecclesia militans fallit fallitur it is an old rule the Church militant doth deceiue and is deceiued Gregorie his speach who saith that he doth reuerence the foure first Councells as the foure Gospels de alijs suspitionem in animis hominum relinquit leaueth a suspition in the minds of men of other Councels Saith the same man the councell of Neocaesaria condemned second marriages this is not confessed by Bellarmine in his tractate of councells least he should graunt that Councells may erre But in his first booke of marriage and 17. chap. he writeth that Concilium tractat de secundis nuptijs qua contrabuntur mortua priore vxore the Councell doth entreat of second marriages which are made the former wife beeing dead Hence I thus conclude That Councell which condemneth second marriages erreth but this Councell condemneth second marriages ergo And touching your Tridentine conuenticle why doe not your men stand to the decrees of the same Arias Montanus reiecteth the bookes from the bodie of the holy bible which we doe Catharin teacheth that a man may be certen of grace yet these opinions are condemned in your chapter of Trent if we beleeue Bellarmine Againe if your chapter of Trent teacheth rightly of originall sinne why doth the same Catharin teach that it is nothing els but Adams actuall transgression and disobedience Noli esse tam iniustus be not so vnequall M. Doctour to binde vs with your councell of Trent when your owne men dissent from the same Where you say that we shall vtterly vanish away because we haue no head to gather a generall Councell I acknowledge you to be a false and no true prophet We see the fall of Babylon daily more and more and the madnesse of them that seeke to vphold her daily more and more manifest You say also that we receiue fixe Councells â—hem Act. 15. yet your fellows maruell that we attribute much to the foure first and nothing to the rest it were good for you to agree amongst your selues before you charge vs with errour Lastly the libertie of our Gospel is such as Gods word doth teach 1â— epist ego saith Augustine solis eis scripturarum libris I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour onely to the canonicall Scriptures that no author of them can erre The 10. reason Fathers The Doctour in the beginning of this chap. proijcit ampullos casteth out loftie and arrogant words after this manner The Catholike Romane religion is most plainly taught by all the ancient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixt hundred yeares and hath beene euer without controuersie taught of the fathers of euery age since vntill this day This proud bragge I haue disprooued before by many testimonies and now by Gods helpe I will make it manifest to boyes Theophilus Alexandrinus is plaine against traditions in his 2. paschal sermon he writeth thus Daemoniaci est spiritus instinctus aeliquid extra scripturarum authoritatem putare divinum it is the instinct of a deuillish spirit to thinke any thing diuine without authoritie of scriptures what spirits then haue Papists but deuillish spirits who fight for their trash of traditions Caesarius is as plaine for reading of the Scriptures in his 20. homilie he taketh away the excuse commonly vsed for not reading the same Nemo dicat non mihi vacat legere Let no man say I am not at leisure to read the Scriptures Inanis invtilis est excusatio ista this excuse is vaine and vnprofitable Marke the Eremite hath written a booke against those which thinke to be iustified by works in which booke this notable sentence is extant Regnum coeloruÌ„ non est merces operuÌ„ sed gratia domini fidelibus servis praeparata the kingdome of heauen is not the wages of workes but the grace of God prepared for faithfull seruants In his booke de baptisme of baptisme he teacheth the same Mandata ipsa non tellunt peccatum hoc enim per solam crucem factum est sed donata nobis libertatis limites custodiunt The commandements take not away finne for that is done onely by the
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
epist 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter Qui sit how commeth it to passe saith he that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope That I say nothing of Formosus doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another what should I speake of Innocentius and Coelestinus Pelagius and Gregories decrees one contrarie to another By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie The fourth reason conuersion of countries In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome beginneth with an vntruth saying that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ were first conuerted to his faith by such as either were precisely sent or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe not from Peter conuerted many countries That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe the scriptures are plaine in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith As the father hath sent me so send I you what can be more plaine Paul saith of himselfe that he was an Apostle neither of men nor by men but by Iesus Christ How many countries did Paul conuert Concerning this land I spake something before Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum eosque ad Scythias misit prouided men followers of the Apostles labours and sent them to the Scythians The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus whome Athanasius ordained Bishop as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem by a woman that was a captiue Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme They which take paines in conuersion of countries hold the true religion But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries ergo I denie the proposition and say to the Papists as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies Math. 23. woe be to you Papists for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made ye make him twofold more the child of hell Heretikes haue laboured to conuert or rather to peruert men Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 affirmeth that euill men shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and beeing deceiued The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum as witnes Theodoret and others writers As touching the conuersion of the west Indians if things be true that are reported Sadeel con are pos in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword If our Sauiour Christ had saide Goe kill all nations when he saide Goe teach all nations he had fitted the Papists humour What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion I know not but this I am sure of that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England But to returne to the Indies The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement Iuel 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate some worshipped the sunne some familiar deuills what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God Calvine not to speake of others read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare and preached aboue two hundred sermons Who conuerted England Scotland Ireland and other countries from Antichrist to Christ from the Masse to the Messias from Images to the seruice of the liuing God did not poore Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius and other Protestants the ministers of England labour in their owne charges preaching in season and out of season God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules in times past it was not so hodie proh dolor saith Aeneas Sylvius Lib. 1. de geâ—â— con Basil now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things Againe Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church speaketh thus Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam quà m decem solidorum Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements Thus then I returne the argument They which esteeme money more then the soules of men are not the true Church But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men Ergo. Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not neither am I priuie to the successe they had Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them the fault is not in the doctrine but in the men who resist the same I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance by the meanes of another though he be an vnpenitent person The Doctors rayling vpon Luther Calvin and Peter Martyr calling his wife fustilugges fitteth the spirit of a Papist If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues 1. Cor. â— I answer with Paul Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages and to wast paper But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth to spread abroad religion why are they then exiles and haue witnessed their religion with their blood In a word Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes then by conscience and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them The fifth reason largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers That the Church which the Messias was to plant must be dispersed throughout all nations and kingdomes as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed we acknowledge neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies I may well say of the Doctor as did
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
and the merit of his passion beeing content with one of them himselfe giueth the other to me I wish all Papists and Monkes for their saluation sake were of Bernards minde and I thinke this is to recant Monachisme for Monkes looke for saluation by their merits and workes Lib. 2. de grat c. 15. I will set downe that excellent place of Luke with Bellarmines glosse vpon it Feare not little flocke it is your fathers pleasure to giue you a kingdome Verbum complacuit nomen pater vocubula illa pusillus grex indicant gratiam non Justitiam The word it pleaseth the nowne father and these words little floke shewe grace not iustice Thus the kingdome of heauen is an inheritance giuen vs of our Father not deserued by vs. The last lie is some Protestants affirme the Fathers to haue thought otherwise then they wrote this is true of Papists For the Rhemists beeing pressed with Chrysostomes authoritie for the reading of Scriptures by Laymen say that he spake as e pulpit mā and not as a teacher belike pulpit men speake not that which they thinke Let the Reader then iudge whether you say the Fathers spake as they thought or no. For further triall of this I referre the Reader to that which I haue alleadged out of Bellarmine concerning the Fathers in the Reason of Fathers Hierom in his apologie to Paumichius saith that some things are spoken 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for exercise sake and other things for opinions sake ergo the fathers spake not all things dogmatically but some things rhetorically Nazianzen also biddeth his chaire farewell The rest of the chapter concerneth Luther whose speeches haue beene somewhat vehement but not knowing the reason which he might haue to vse such I can neither absolue him nor condemne him for them I will now set downe popish lies I begin with the Doctors in the first chapter he saith that in England it is manifest that all were Papists without exception from the first christening thereof vntil this age of King Henrie the eight This as I haue proued is a famous lie witnesse Wickliffe who liued in England and yet was he no papist The second lie is that hereticks haue euer taken their names of some one who began that heresie this is a lie for some heretickes as the Catharists are called of their sect and not of the author The third lie is in the third chapter the Catholikes haue euer kept vnitie and concord in such a peaceable manner as neuer any one in England or Ireland dissented or disagreed in any point of doctrine from him which liued in the vtmost parts of the East This is such a lie as needeth no manifestation of it Yet I will name one point more then I haue before Hart. Some papists in England held that the Pope may depose Princes others denie it The fourth lie is in the same chapter where he saith that all decrees of lawfull Councels and Popes doe agree in all points of doctrine one with another This I haue prooued a lie Fiftly in the 5. chapter he saith that all countreies which euer beleeued in Christ were first cōuerted to his faith by such as were either precisely sent or at the least wise had their authoritie from the Pope who liued in the time in which they were conuerted This I haue prooued a lie Sixtly in the same chapter he saith that Iesuites are executed in England onely in regard of their sacred function which to be a lie their owne bookes can testifie besides the confession of Papists Seauenthly in the fift reason he belieth M. Caluin calling him a Sere backt priest for Sodomie For I will omit the lie of persecution onely in England in the same chapter Eightly in the tenth chapter he saith that Catholike Romane religion is taught by all the auntient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixe hundred yeares Ninthly in the 13. chap. he saith that we meddle litle with restitution of goods but leaue all at large to our followers without restraint of any such crime 10. In the same chapter he saith the Protestant teacheth the landlord to doe what he listeth with his own 11 In the same place he saith that we teach not reward of good and bad life in the world to come which all men can testifie to be a lie although we disclaime the merit of good works yet we teach the merit of sinne 12 In the 14. Reason he saith that we denie the perpetuall virginitie of Marie which is an vntruth In the 15. Reason he hath many lies first that we haue nothing but a number of pelting obiections taken out of Caluins Institutions or out of the Magdebursens or some hereticall pamphlet Secondly he saith that we trouble our selues with nothing but with the controuersies of this time Thirdly that Protestants doe scarce vnderstand the tearmes of learned sciences which others doe fully possesse Fourthly he saith that the Clergie in Queene Maries time was more learned then now it is Fiftly he saith that the most learned Doctor of them all is vtterly ignorant of schoole diuinitie Sixtly he saith that the Protestant neuer medleth with cases of conscience but fraighteth his ship onely with faith and neuer beateth his braine about sinnes In the sixteenth Reason he saith that all the ministers nowe are naught yea he asketh in the same chap. what woman is nowe married without touch of her honestie I will gather no moe lies out of this Doctor I will set downe some out of other Papists The Rhemists vpon the sixt of Luke write that Protestants are wont to say All is very easie which is a lie Againe say they the Protestants thinke that to burne is to be tempted onely which is a lie 1. Cor. 7. Thirdly vpon the 9. chap. of the first epist of Paul to the Cor. they say that protestants will not haue men worke well in respect of reward at Gods hands which is a lie I desire thee Christian reader to read the Rhemists annotatiōs where thou shalt finde many slaunders but I delight not in these things Bellarmine affirmeth that Caluin maketh God the author of fin againe he saith that Caluin holdeth that the saints departed are not blessed he saith also that he died calling vpon the deuill which are monstrous lies Genebrard accuseth Caluin of errour in saying that the sonne of God is God of himselfe Bellarmine defendeth Caluine against Genebrard nowe let euery man iudge of this syllogisme They which are lyars are of a false religion But the Papists are lyars ergo Christian reader I would not haue vsed this tearme of lying so often but that I haue beene vrged by the Doctor For railing I referre thee to M. Hardings workes as also to Doctor Stapletons writings against M. Doctor Whitakers in which thou maist see the spirit of papists The 20. reason Keeping in memorie Gods benefits That the memorie of Gods benefits is carefully to