Selected quad for the lemma: authority_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	believe_v	scripture_n	tradition_n	2,838	5	9.5550	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14408	Acts of the dispute and conference holden at Paris, in the moneths of Iuly and August. 1566. Betweene two doctors of Sorbon, and two ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent tract, wherein the learned may take pleasure, and the ignorant reape knowledge. Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne, and diuided according to the daies.; Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English.	Golburne, John.; Vigor, Simon, d. 1575.; Sainctes, Claude de, 1525-1591.; Du Rosier, Hugues Sureau.; L'Espine, Jean de, ca. 1506-1597.	1602 (1602)	STC 24727; ESTC S119134	189,279	272

seeing the Supper was to be handled against thē in the chamber of the Prior of Poissy in the pre●●ce of the Queen of the Prinoes of bloud of the Lords of the Councell they often requested to leaue that point vndecided hand to enter into some other which should be more euident against the Catholikes as of Images and other things And contrariwise the Ministers to auoyd now the great 〈◊〉 which be in their interpretation of the Creed would set forth the point of the Supper The Doctors beseech as they haue 〈◊〉 that there be no confusion in their doing and 〈◊〉 their religio●e examined by order and that it be no● thought that the Doctors doo refuse ●o enter into the Conference of the Masse and the Supper as they haue alwaies determined and neuer said vnder correction of all persons that they would not conferre theerof for my Ladies briefe instruction they are readie to dispute thereof by word of mouth and plainly to shewe by the expresse word of God that Iesus Christ instituted and said Masse and his Apostles also They do also offer that whatsoeuer shall be said by word of mouth vpon this matter be put in writing the next day after to be placed in it order as the instruction of my Lady doth require And do referre them for the day to the said Ladies opportunitie The Ministers do answere that all these answeres are superfluous and vnprofitable for as much as all such Conferences are nothing but debates and al●rications which do● offend and scandalize more then they edifie The Resolution of the Doctors THe Doctors ensuing the order alreadie begun and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers and afterwards to giue a resolution for the instruction of my Lady of Buillon vpon the two points proposed yesterday to wit whether the Apostles were authors of the Creed And why we ought to beleeue it They say that to know whether the Apostles did make and erect the Creed ought no more to be esteemed a thing indifferent then to know whether the Apostles be authors of their owne writings For much more is the authoritie of them when a man is assured that they are certainly proceeded from the Apostles And contrariwise it should be far lesse if men did doubt therof or esteem it a thing indifferent Moreouer they say that it is no sufficient reason to call this Creed Apostolike and to intitle it the Creed of the Apostles in regard of the conformitie it hath with their writings For by this reason the other Creeds as that of Nice of Ath●n●sius and all other the like writings may as well be named the Creed of the Apostles because they containe a doctrine agreeable to the Apostles writings Therefore say the Doctors it must be beleeued that the Apostles did make it and gaue the same Creed vnto Christians and that it must be beleeued as being a writing composed by the Apostles And their proofe thereof is that they alwayes finde since the Apostles time vntil now that this Creed hath bene proposed in Baptisme and Catechisme as it appeareth by the authors which haue beene from the Apostles vnto vs. And also that no man can name or note any Author or Councell but euen before that Author or Councell immediately to the Apostles time that Creed hath beene proposed in Baptisme and Cat chisme and called among Christians the rule of faith And the like argument S. Augustine in many places against the Donatists doth esteeme to be firme and in●incible to proue and shew that something is from the Apostles They willingly omit to auoyd ●ediousnesse the auncient writers as S. Ambrose S. Ierome others who acknowledge this Creed to haue bene made and receiued namely of the Apostles For the second point the Doctors do affirme that the bond and necessitie to beleeue this Creed doth not depend o● the knowledge of the Apostolike or Prophetica●● scriptures nor on the knowledge of the conformitie with them For it was made and co●●ained among the Christians in Baptisme before there was any Apostolike writing And in Baptisme they proposed the said Creed to be beleeued before they ent●ed into the scripture or to speake thereof And in the Primatiue Church they examined the scriptures whether they were to be receiued or nor and the vnde●standing of them and whether a doctrine were true or false by this Creed and rule of faith and by it likenesse or conformitie with the same Ireneus Tertullian and others do teach it And although it should so happen that a man had neuer heard but the Creed without knowing whether there be holy scriptures or not hee might beleeue the said Creed and be a true Christian so that hee were voyd of other particular false opinion And contrariwise if the beliefe of the Creed did depend vpon the knowledge of the Propheticall o● Apostolike scriptures to vnderstand and to be assured of the conformitie that is therein as 〈◊〉 as to beleeue it 〈◊〉 none but the learned and well exercised in the scriptures who should bee assured of the said conformitie should be bound to beleeue the Creed or should at least be assured of the truth thereof And so should there he very fewe Christians Therfore the belle●ing of the Creed doth not depend vpon the knowledge of the scriptures By meanes whereof the Doctors do hold by tradition of the Church 〈◊〉 by the holy Ghost that the Creed is the Apostle and that none ought to doubt therof And by the same tradition it must be beleeued as 〈…〉 of the Apostles of like authoritie with that in their writings although they had no knowledge of the other scriptures And the Doctors are sory that they haue so much declined from answering pertinently and absolutely to these two points which they haue onely proposed to shew what faith and authoritie men ought to giue to this Creed and to all other doctrine receiued by tradition of the Apostles without Canonicall scripture which they will proue to haue bene left by them by the same meane and reason by which is shewed the Creed to haue bin deliuered to the Christians by the Apostles without that they put the same in writing Finally the Doctors do admonish such as read this Conference not to be astonished nor ma●uell at so many perplexed declinings from the true end of the said points proposed And do pray them to remember the conferences made by S. Augustine with the Donatists and Pellagians wherin they shall finde like maner of dealing as that of the Ministers with whom they do conferre And for the present Conference referre themselues to the readers iudgement The Resolution of the Ministers THe Ministers following that which before hath bene proposed and alwaies by them maintained and for the confirmation also of the faith of the Lady of Buillon say that it is vncertaine as S. Ciprien hath written whether the Creed called the Apostles was made composed by them or else drawne or gathered out of their

of it proper essence So that it is impossible that a body should bee a body which is not measured and circumscript The first example they produce for confirmation of their saying is that a massie thing which naturally for the waight thereof declineth downward may be lifted on high Wherevnto the Ministers do answere that it may be done and that by violent motion But that this example nought serueth to ouerthrow that they haue said for as much as such things in themselues containe no contradiction and that they are not contrary to the essence of the thing where they happen For a stone which a man throweth vpward doth not therefore cease to be a stone neither by such a mouing is it not depriued of the waightinesse thereof To the example of the fire they answere that it is one selfesame reason of light as of heauie things and that without any corruption of their essence their naturall mouings may be changed by some force and violence done vnto them And as touching that they alledge of fire which contrary to it nature namely to heat and burne refreshed the three Iewes in the Babilonian furnace they answere that the fire therefore was nothing altered in the essence nor qualiries thereof which may easily appeare in that it spared the three Iewes and burned and consumed those which kindled the same Whereof may be inferred that the cause why it did not offend them proceeded not because the nature or qualities thereof were any way changed but onely because the action thereof was suspended And where they alledge that two bodies may be at one instant in one selfe-same place together and for proofe therof propose that which is written in S. Iohn that Iesus Christ did enter where his Disciples were the doores beeing shut the Ministers do answere that it is not so in the text but the text sheweth that the Disciples beeing assembled in a place Iesus Christ stood appeared in the middest of them Whereof can be no way inferred that hee entred into the place where they were without opening of the doores nor that hee pierced them to enter therein And very like it is that they were opened and shut againe as well as those which the Angell did open and shut againe when hee was sent to deliuer S. Peter out of prison and when likewise hee was sent for the Apostles deliuerance As touching that they propose of a grosse body passing through a straight place alledging the example of a Cable through the eye of a needle The Ministers answere that it is ill to the purpose alledged and is an argument grounded vpon a thing impossible They say moreouer that the Doctors haue all vnderstood the word Camilos vsurped in the scripture not for a Cable but for a Camell as to them it is manifest which are but meanely seene in the antiquities of the Hebrewes And as appeareth by that which Angelius Caninius writeth in the end of his Caldean Grammer And for the conclusion which the Doctors drawe from the precedent examples it is from the purpose and founded vppon presupposed antecedents and premisses by them brought which in the sence they alledge them for the reasons aboue declared they neither haue nor will confesse vnto them Where they say that what the Ministers haue said touching a body that it cannot be in two places at one instant were it the body of Iesus Christ it selfe was neuer written by any of the auncient Fathers nor proposed before the comming of Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza The Ministers do maintaine that it was And that S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus saith the same in these tearmes According to this forme meaning the corporall forme of Iesus Christ we must not thinke that it is euery where And wee must beware least in establishing in him his diuinitie we take not frō him the veritie of his body And else-where hee saith That by reason of the nature and measure of a true body hee is in one place in heauen The selfe-same thing saith Therdoret in his second Dialogue as hath bene before alledged And so doth Vigilius in his fourth booke against Eutiches where hee writeth as followeth If the word and flesh be but of one nature how commeth it to passe that the flesh is not found euery where as the word of which word it was taken to constitute one selfe-same person and Hypostaly is euery where for when it was on the earth it was not in heauen and now that it is in heauen surely it is not on the earth And so farre off is it that he is there that we attend Iesus Christ to come according to his flesh whom neuerthelesse we beleeue as he is the word to be here on earth with vs. By these and other like authorities often found in the writings of the Fathers men may know that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza are not the first authors of this doctrine and that it is falsly imputed to them for as much as they haue but drawne and word by word copied as it were the same out of the bookes of the auncient Fathers To that which the Doctors pretend that the forme of arguing which the Ministers haue vsed affirming some things to be impossible to God doth not derogate his omnipotēcie ouerthroweth the forme of the argument which the Angell speaking to the virgin vseth for cōfirmatiō of that which he declared vnto her that is that nothing is impossible to God The Ministers do answere that it is nothing to the purpose for as much as the question is neither of a thing which containeth in it self any contradiction nor that is contrary to the truth of God which be the two matters they haue alledged and yet do alledge for the expositiō of the omnipotencie of God And touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change the nature and qualitie of things there is no man doubteth the same But whē that is done it behoueth also to auow that the things be changed that they remain not in their first nature And the Ministers say that it is not all one with the thing here proposed for as much as the Doctors wil haue a thing to remain in it essence and nature although the essentiall parts therof be changed altogether extinct and abolished Touching the limitation of the power of God towards his creatures there is none so presumptuous to attempt to limit the same in whatsoeuer he wil and which confesseth not that he may ordaine dispose of all his creatures in generall as it pleaseth him as a Potter doth of his earth And thervnto say they ought the authoritie of Ieremy to be referred as it appeareth very clearly by these Hebrew words L● gippale Mimmecha col-dauar To wit nothing shal be hard to thee ô Lord. Concerning the danger which the Doctors pretend may come of the abouesaid answeres of the Ministers they answer that men of sound and good judgement wil neuer drawe thereof

his body to be locally in heauen and Sacramentally really neuerthelesse and substantially in the Sacrament of the Aultar Thus would the Doctors desire to heare the Ministers vpon this point and then afterwards to put their answere in writing And the Ministers shall neuer be able to shewe by the word of God that their faith can make at one instant and one selfe-same place a thing to be present and not present And one thing present and not present by faith is as much to say as that the body of Iesus Christ is in and not in a faithfull person And no Coduit pipe of the power of the holy Ghost should there also be needfull to conuey the flesh of Iesus Christ hither vnto vs from heauen were not the said flesh but in heauen and notwithstanding came vnto vs. And as touching the points obiected by the Doctors that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza were the first which said that God could not make one body to bee in two places and the Ministers haue willed to confirme by antiquitie this new doctrine which they cannot name otherwise then blasphemie The Doctors say they haue often prayed the Ministers that time might be spared things better cleared to speake nothing from the purpose Notwithstanding they bring forthwith the testimonies of Fathers to shewe that a body by nature is circumscript and cannot be naturally in many places but those Authors say not that God cannot do it But S. Augustine and others in the places cyted by the Doctors touching the article of the closed doores do rather witnesse that two bodies by the power of God may occupie one selfe-same place which is of like difficultie And when they shall come to the proofe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ they will euidently shewe that wholly all the auncient Fathers which haue spoken of that Sacrament haue not onely confessed that hee could make his body to bee aboue in heauen and here belowe in the Sacrament but all with one accord haue declared that they beleeue according to the word of Iesus Christ that he is in heauen and here in the Sacrament The Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they haue any that before Peter Martyr and Theodor Beza denied such power of God And let them no more set foorth the authorities of the Fathers to prooue that one body is not naturally in two places The Doctors doo not maruell if the Ministers do magnifie Peter Martyr from whom they haue taken all the places they haue brought Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching that which the Doctors pretend that the forme c. The Doctors say that this forme is common as often as men will debate of the power of God And they cannot be better guided to proue it then to follow the words of the Angel That there is nothing impossible to God From the which when a man will except something hee will alwaies bring what the Ministers do bring that there is some repugnancy of things whereof ensueth some implication of contradiction As did the olde heretiques against the flesh of Iesus Christ who brought alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature And as much did they against the Article of the Resurrection and incarnation as though there had bene contradiction that God should be man and man should be God And it shall be alwayes easie for an euil spirit to forge some contradiction in his conceit according to the proprieties of nature And concerning the Article beginning As touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not wel conceiued their meaning for they take for an absurd thing that a substance remaining affected of his qualities can by the power of God haue effects contrary to his qualities As if God by his omnipotencie could not make the fire hauing his naturall heate to coole in stead of burning which none of sound and Christian iudgement will deny Concerning the Article beginning Touching the limitation of the power c. The Doctors say that it seemeth by the Ministers answere that the power of God is limited according to his will as much to say as God cannot doo but what he will which is notoriously false For the Hebrew alledged the Ministers it seemeth are willing to shew they are skilfull therin For such summoning is not to the purpose when as they stay chiefly vpon the word Dauar which is as much to say as one thing But it ought not to bee vnderstood of a thing done they said to be done And such is the sence of the place ad verbum Shall there be any thing hidden from me And because hard things are hidden things impossible also are yet more hidden Behold why they haue translated Is there any thing hard or impossible to mee Which holy Pagninus and other Interpreters of the Hebrew tongue do wel declare that the verbe Pala signifieth to hide The Doctors had no desire to answer herevnto but to make it bee vnderstood that an Hebrew word doth not appaule them Cōcerning the article beginning Touching the danger c. The Doctors say that they are words superfluous and whatsoeuer the Ministers can bring the same may other vse and retort against the said Ministers And where they say it is a slaunder in that they obiect vnto them that they corrupt the scripture the Doctors say that the Ministers cannot denie but they change the sence glose the words of the Supper This is my body This is my bloud And with like authoritie as they vnder pretence of I know not what reasons may each one pretend to corrupt the other scriptures alledge some impossibilities contradictiōs of nature As touching the article beginning To that which they adde that the scripture saith that the body c. The Doctors do say that in time and place they will shewe what they haue obiected when as they shall treate more amply of the Sacrament of the Aultar Where the Doctors haue obiected that the Ministers do not ground their affirmation to wit that God cannot make one body to be in two places vpon the expresse testimonie of the scripture or can thereof deduct the same The Ministers for all places haue onely brought but these that God cannot lye God cannot denie himselfe But the Doctors say that this consequence is nought worth God cannot lye God cannot therefore make one body to be in two places which neuerthelesse the Ministers should haue made such had the places produced serued to that purpose Ioyned that when it is said God cannot lye as the Ministers themselues haue cyted to be able to lye is not power but infirmitie So that according to the true sense it was meet so to say God is not weake that he can lye Therfore God cannot make one bodie to be in two places which consequence should be ridiculous And where the Ministers haue brought certaine authorities of the auncient Fathers to proue

consecrate vse not the blessing and pronuntiation of certaine words ouer the bread and wine withstanding that which Iesus Christ first did and then ordained to his Apostles and their successors so to doo they cannot take any consecration of the bread and wine and that in them any chaunge happeneth Whereof it followeth that they differ not from common bread and wine and that such a feast and banquet is but common And that it is blasphemy to attribute vnto it the name of Christs Supper Behold why partly the Doctors haue said that the Supper of the Ministers is a prophane and polluted banquet The Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere to purpose and plainely to the demaunds by them proposed which they haue not done which is the cause that the Doctors least they should trauell in vaine haue not yet willed to impugne their answere summoning them eftsoones to answere what is proposed to them without drawing backe from the Conference which they say they affect so greatly The first demaunde was generall for all the Sacraments to wit whether the Ministers did beleeue that two things were essentiall and necessary to the confection of the Sacrament namely the matter or element and the word The Ministers answere that the Sacrament in it perfection considered consisteth in three things c. They speake indeterminately so that one cannot iudge whether they vnderstand theyr saying of the Sacrament which they call the Supper onely or generally of all as they were demaunded Although because they alledge Ireneus one may coniecture that they meant but of the Sament of the Supper Moreouer it behoueth to note that which they adde in it perfection considered to haue alwaies a starting hole when speech shall be made of the essence of the Sacrament The Doctors require that the Ministers answere to the question proposed generally of all the Sacraments For there is lyke reason as touching the essence of the Sacraments in generall And that they openly declare what things be essentiall and necessary to a Sacrament to be made a Sacrament without speaking for the present of the perfection of a Sacrament containing the essence and spirituall fruites which be not of the essence of the Sacracrament To the second demaund the Ministers answere no more pertinently then to the first And namely where the Doctors haue demaunded whether it behooued to vse certaine words for the confection of a Sacrament and what word was necessary for the Sacrament of the Supper The Ministers haue sayd that the lowe and secret speaking of certaine words addressed to the elements was not the word necessary to the confection of a Sacrament But they demaunded not whether it behooued to pronounce that word with a lowe or high voyce but the Interrogatory was whether there be any words necessary to make the Sacrament that one ought to pronounce ouer the matter or in administring the matter and that they might be such words for the Supper And it is not sufficient to say that the word by which the ordinance of Iesus Christ is declared is the word of the Sacrament but it behoueth to answere in what words consisteth that word and when it must be pronounced As touching the sixt and principall demaund the Ministers answere not clearly and to purpose but make a captious answere by which one may conceiue what is their opinion of the presence participatiō of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper And so temper they their saying that there is no Zuinglian nor Almanists which confesseth not thereof as much or more then they To wit that they are conioyned to our Lord Iesus Christ that they possesse him in the power of their faith and by the operation of his holy spirite to be made flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones c. But this is farre off from the demaund to wit whether the faithfull in the Supper receiue into theyr soules besides all the graces spirituall among which is the communication with our Lord Iesus Christ his true bodie and blood really truly and substantially And whether the Ministers in the Supper make not distinction of the substance contained and perceiued in the Sacrament with the fruites thereof proceeding And for more breuitie the Doctors demaund whether the Ministers do receiue and approoue that which Caluin hath written of the Supper and of that they receiue thereof in his Catechisme Institution and other bookes As touching the seauenth demaund the Ministers haue not vnderstood what hath beene proposed to them touching the Concomitance For they haue taken it as if one demaunded whether it were lawfull to receiue the Sacrament vnder one onely kinde or no. Whiche was not as then put in question But suche a difficultie was proposed to them namely whether in theyr Supper when one hath receiued the bread before hee receiue the wine he do participate of the true body of Iesus Christ without hee be partaker of his bloud vntill hee haue taken the wine or hauing eaten the bread whether he hath receiued the body and bloud before he take the Cup To which demaunds to auoyd vaine blotting of paper the Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere without wandering and to render open confession of their faith And that the Doctors may knowe what doctrine they ought to impugne or approue As touching the articles of the Masse the Doctors reserue them to their proper place which is of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ After it shal be knowne and proued that they be present in the Supper and holy Sacrament The fourth of August the yeare aboue said The Ministers answere to the writing of the Doctors sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the morning being 7. of August 1566. THe Ministers leauing aside whatsoeuer is superfluous and from the purpose in the writing of the Doctors as be theyr repetitions and rehea●salls dissembling also their iniuries and accustomed scoffings by which they much more proue the hate they beare to the truth and the Ministers then the questions by them propounded will onely stay on the points which seeme to require some answere The Ministers first say that they taxed not the Doctors to haue restrained the Church in a certaine place but to a certaine company and to the traditions giuen followed and by the same approued And they magnifie God that the Doctors doo now acknowledge the Catholique Church to stretch through the world and that it is not inclosed in the boundes and limits of the authoritie and traditions of the Romane Church which the Ministers confesse to haue beene then much esteemed of the auncient Fathers when errours abuses and vices did not as yet there abounde as since they doo But now that all things almost are there corrupted as well in manners as in doctrine and that nothing is there more odious then the word the light the trueth and the power of God The Ministers do say that as the state of the same Church hath