to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
contrary sense and only self-love and selfe-esteem determine both the one and the other Can it then be prudence in any man to hazard Eternity upon his own sence of Scripture the half of which perhaps he never read Commonly a Text or two concludes every point controverted when perhaps there are twenty Texts unconsidered by the Person which would rectify the sence he gave to the former Is that Guide to be trusted which has seduced such infinite Multitudes opposing calumniating and hating one another All Mankind may be witness that this Private Light hath hitherto never been able to confute or undecieve one Sect. In a word is it not in effect an injurious blaspheming of the Goodness Wisdom and Omnipotence of God to affirm that he has obliged under penalty of damnation all Christians to unity of Faith in all necessary Doctrines and also that he hath promised to conserve his Church in this Unity to the end of the world and on the other side to affirm withal that the only Means appointed by him to produce this Unity should be a certain Means of destroying Unity and which if made use of by all Christians the gates of Hell would be too strong for him so that there would scarce be left a Church upon earth §. 16. Truly Sir I do not know through what Spectacles you look upon this principle of Protestancy which hath been indeed the constant Principle of all Ancient-Herities But to me it appears most horribly gastly and only fit to be acknowledged the invention of Lucifer the foul Spirit of Pride and contention who presents to unwary Christians once more this fruit of the Tree of the knowledg of good and evil to be aspired to by our own endeavors and contrary to Gods appointment Since therefore as hath been said there are but those two ways to arrive at the knowleg of Divine Mysteries contained in Scripture yet so contained as that the Texts in which they are contained are subject to be miss-understood viz. First A man 's own private Reason And Secondly Authority of Superiors by Gods appointment placed in his Church All the Reason I have enforces me to chuse this latter way because thereby I shall avoid inconstancy otherwise unavoidable as I am taught by St. Paul who sayes Eph. 4. 11 12 c. That therefore God placed in his Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers for the edification of the Body of Christ a Succession of which is to last till we all meet in the Unity of Faith c. This Almighty God did says he To the end we should not be like children wavering and carried about with every wind of Doctrine through the wickedness of men and cunning of such as would circumvent us with errour the only remedy whereof in the Apostles judgment is submission to Authority To which submission also I am obliged by an express command of God Obedite praepositis vestris c. Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that are set over you and submit your selves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account And Reason thus divinely enlightned obliging me to submit to Authority I should renounce the same Reason utterly if I should not prefer that Society which by an evident Succession from the foresaid Apostles and Pastors makes the best claim thereto yea which alone claims an Authority obliging the Conscience and that is the Catholics Church the Authority whereof is evidently the greatest in the world For though all divided Sects preume to contend with her for Truth of Doctrines challenging that to themselves yet there is not any one of them which dares assume to themselves that eminence of Authority which manifestly appears in her And you may know this Catholio Church from others because it only challengeth an universal and absolute not conditional Obedience and you may know the Sons of it by their professing to give to the Churches Authority such Obedience §. 17. Now Sir consider how agreeable to Gods goodness and wisdom how suitable to humane capacities how helpful to mens necessities is this way of grounding our Faith on Gods Word as interpreted by the Catholic Church The far greatest part of Christians are too weak to maintain Disputes yet God loves the Poor and Ignorant at least as well as he does the Rich and Learned and takes care to bring them to Happiness without Learning sharpness of wit curiosity and study of knowledg Consequently he has chalked out a way to Heaven in which the Ignorant and Simple may walk securely And in what other way can these walk but in that of obedience to Authority This doubtless is that way foretold by the Prophet Isa. 35. 8. saying in Christs Kingdom There shall be a high way and it shall be called a holy way No polluted person shall pass through it This shall be to Christians a streight way so that Fools shall not err in it Now have Sectaries found out this streight way in which Fools cannot err Sectaries I say who have framed a confused Labyrinth in which there are a thousand cross paths and windings where every one wanders as it were with a dark Lanthorn in his hand and either stumbles into or phantastically chuses such a path as at the present pleases him best and leaves it also when he thinks good not taking direction from any other or not much caring for such directions By this means we see how that not only Fools and Ignorant but even the most Judicious amongst Sectaries following their own light do walk all their lives in quite contrary ways yet all believing that God by the Scripture directs them §. 18. Manifest therefore it is that Gods way being only one holy streight High-way not any Sectaries but all and only Catholics have been by Almighty God brought into it In as much as they distrusting the dim Light of their own Reason for discerning the Verities of Faith contested borrow the Churches Light thus exercising Christian Humility in not presuming upon their own Abilities and Christian Obedience in submitting to the Guidance of those Teachers and Governors whom God hath placed over them and who are to give an account of their souls These Heavenly Virtues are and have always been equally practised by both Ignorant Catholics out of necessity and by the most Learned out of Duty Yea those glorious Lights of Gods Church the holy Fathers and ancient Doctors though they were Fathers and Doctors to others yet to the Church herself they were humble Children and Disciples learning only from her and teaching others only what they had learnt from her This surely is a streight High-way and a Holy way too and whil'st the most Simple among Catholicks walk in this way they have an incomparable advantage in light above the most Learned of those which trust to their private light For they are guided by all the lights that is by the whole Body of those which God hath constituted Teachers in his Church in all ages and
by consequence they are exempted from an Obligation of examining particular Controversies which their Teachers duty is to examine for them §. 19. Neither is it natural Reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent Authority before our own simple judgments but as hath been said a Divine Light also appearing in Scripture and in constant Ecclesiastical Tradition the best and safest Interpreter of Scripture There we find the Church called The Pillar and Ground of truth a City at one in it self and set upon a Hill which cannot be hid There we read That every Tongue which shall rise against her in Iudgment she shall condemn that Gentiles shall come to her light and Kings to the brightness of her Rising And that the nation and Kingdom which will not serve her shall perish There we shall find that the least Supream Tribunal on earth to determine Controversies amongst Christians is the Church whom whosoever will not hear is to be esteemed as a Heathen and a Publican such an unappealeable Authority has God established in this Church And by vertue of this Authority General Councils representing the whole Body of Church Governors challenge from all Christians a submission not only of Non-contradiction but also of internal Assent under Penalty of Anathema which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of Christs promises That he will lead his Church into all Truth Jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform Profession of Truth that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against her Mat. 16. 18. which Gates of Hell are by the interpretations of the Fathers Heresies §. 20. These irrefragable grounds from Prudence and Scripture have we Catholics for directing our Faith On the other side not one single Text of Scripture nay moreover not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy Fathers which may rationally incourage a Christian to prefer his own sence of Scripture before that of the Church whereas whole Books have been written by them of the Churches unity authority indefectibility and universality Now Sir who can resist who can hold out against such a Battery Prot. Well Sir how prevalent soever this Discourse may seem to you to be against us whom you style Schismatics it will prove of little advantage to you Roman Catholics for although we grant that there is but one Catholic Church out of which there is no Salvation yet this does not prove the Roman to be this Church the Roman I say which is but a particular Church and she being as we are perswaded guilty of teaching and practising many false Doctrines and manifold Superstitions and Idolatry we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her §. 21. Cath. Sir this is the ordinary artifice of your Protestant Writers when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of Heresie and Schism to impute to the Church many Errors and sinful Practices in which foresooth their tender consciences dare not joyn This they do to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from Schism till after a full discussion of all other Controversies touching differences about any particular Errors supposed to be in the Church which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand considering mens general incapacity and if undertaken by the Learned would scarce ever have an end But this is most unreasonable because though it were true that the Church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching Errors yet are Protestants justly and unanswerably charged with Schism in a high degree in as much as they remain divided not from the Roman only but all Patriarchal and all other Churches existent before their Separation So that if there be such a Crime as Schism they are manifestly guilty of it and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their Communion To make this charge good against them it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all Christians and of themselves also viz. That there always has been is and shall ever remain a Holy Catholic Church of Christ on Earth from which Separation upon any pretence whatsoever is damnable This Church therefore wheresoever it is was in being when they divided from the Roman and can they pretend that they are Members of this Church There is not a Society in the world older than theirs or other than the Roman Church with which they entertain any communion at all to whose consession of Faith they will subscribe and to whose Laws and Government they will submit but on the contrary condemn its Doctrines Laws and Government The consciousness of this forced the principal Patriarch of Schism Calvin to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world Now it being impossible for Protestants to excuse much less to justifie their manifest Schism to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular Points of Doctrine As long as the charge of Schisin subsists uncleared by them and this Schism grounded on pretended dangerous Errors in the Catholic Church being Schismatics they are Heretics too and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to when they would raise particular controversies since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates §. 22. Schism therefore in its lowest qualification considered only as disobedience to lawful Ecclesiastical Authority being even in the judgment of learned Protestants a most horrible Sin a tearing in pieces the Mystical Body of Christ There are one or two special Aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in Protestants I mean those Reformers abroad and antiently in Scotland Calvinists Presbyterians Lutherans Anabaptists c. They were once Members of the Roman-Catholic-Church which they then esteemed to be that Church which they believed in the Creed It hapned that their Prime Patriarchs Luther Calvin Zwinglius c. having conceived some discontent either against the Governors or some prevailing party in that Church which obstructed their profits or against the Laws of it which restrained their lusts after Women grew angry and began to quarrel with the Church her self and to study to disgrace her for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her Doctrines Then Pride and revenge inspiring them against these they made objections yet not so oft against the Churche's own Doctrines as the Tenents of particular Catholick Writers and most oft they directed their most bitter Invectives against personal miscarriages for all which the Church must be answerable And after all this publishing Liberty from Laws which restrained Concupiscence they quickly found Favorites and Followers thus Sects were first composed But if there had been in any of them either Humility or Love of Peace in case they had been perswaded there had been Errors in the Church her self to which they could not subscribe they would not thereupon separate
Temple These therefore so many and so great bonds keep a believer firm in the Catholic Church although by reason of his natural dulness and perhaps his sins he does not manifestly see and penetrate the depth of Divine Truths But among you Heretics who have none of these advantages to invite or hold me nothing is heard to sound but a vain promise of true Doctrine c. Firmissime tene et nullatenus dubites Hold most firmly and doubt not at all that every Heretic or Schismatic baptised in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost if before he Dies he be not joyned and incorporated into the Catholic Church he can by no means be saved though he should give never so many Alms yea though he should shed his Blood for the Name of Christ For neither Baptism nor liberal distributing of Alms nor the undergoing death for the Name of Christ can profit any one to Salvation as long as Heretical or Schismatical lewdness perseveres in him which leadeth to eternal death §. 3. Of the Catholic Churches Authority Of interpreting Scripture Saint Augustine informs us that a certain acquaintance of his derided the Disciples of Catholic Faith by which men were commanded to believe the Church not being taught by demonstrative Reasons what was true To satisfie this Friend he wrote his Book De Utilitate credendi Ecclesiae in which he writes thus It is fitly instituted by the Majesty of Catholic Discipline that those who come to Religion should before all other things be perswaded to believe the Church But you will say were it not better that Reason should be employed to move me which without any temerity I might follow withersoever it leads me Perhaps it might be so But since to come to the knowledge of God by Reason is a matter of so great importance and difficulty do you think that generally all men are capable of searching into the Reasons by which mens minds may be brought to a knowledg of Divine Mysteries Or are the greatest number of men such or but a few I suppose you will answer But a few If so do you think that the knowledg of Religion is to be denyed to all the rest who have not so piercing a Judgment It is a miserable thing to be deceived by Authority but it is much more miserable not to be moved by it If Gods Providence does not preside over human affairs there will be no cause why we should trouble our selves about Religion We ought not therefore to despair that some Authority is constituted by God by which those who walk doubtfully may be raised up to God Puto si quis Sapiens extitisset I conceive that if there were extant a wise man to whom our Lord had given his Testimony viz. that he should be directed by him and if that man were consulted by us concerning this controversie we should not at all doubt to do whatsoever he enjoyned us least we should be adjudged to oppose our selves not so much to that man himself as to our Lord Jesus Christ by whose Testimony he is recommended Now such Testimony doth our Lord afford to his Church Haeretici qui cum in unitate Heretics who though they be not in Catholic Unity and Communion yet Glory in the title of Christians are compelled to oppose Orthodox Believers and they have the boldness to attempt the seducing unskilful Christians by force of disputing and Reasoning whereas our Lord came with a peculiar Medicine against this when he enjoyned not reasoning but Believing to all people But Heretics are forced to take the way of arguing by reason because they see themselves in a most abject Condition if their Authority be compared with Catholic Authority Therefore they endeavour to prevail by a pretence and promise of Reason against the most unshaken Authority of the firmly established Church This is the uniform and as it were regular temerity of all Heretics But the most clement Emperor of our Faith has fortified with the Citadel of Authority his Church both by numerous Congregations of People and Nations and the Chairs of his Apostles He also by a few piously learned and truly Spiritual men has armed his Church with most copious provisions of invincible Reason But the more secure and rational Discipline is That those who are ignorant or infirm should be received within the Castle of Faith depending on Authority that they may be defended by those who can combate with the weapons of most powerful Reason Noc nos ipsi tale aliquid auderemus asserere Neither durst we affirm any such thing viz. that Hereties ought not to be rebaptized if we were not strengthned by the unanimous Authority of the universal Church To which Authority no doubt Cyprian who held the contrary would have submitted if in his time the truth of this question had been established by the examination and decision of a Plenary Council Proinde quamvis hujus rei certe de Scripturis Canonicis non proferatur exemplum Although no express example can be brought out of Canonical Scriptures touching this Point of rebaptization yet the truth of the same Scriptures in this matter is held by us when we do that which has pleased the Universal Church which the Authority of Scripture themselves does commend That since the Holy Scripture cannot deceive us he whosoever is in fear of being deceived by the obscurity of this question may consult the same Church about it which Church the holy Scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate Aliud est cum Authoritati credimus It is one thing when we believe submitting to Authority and another when we yield to reason To believe Authority is a way very compendious and without labour Et si nulla ratione indagetur Whatsoever is from Ancient times preached by our Orthodox Faith and believed through the whole Church though by no search of reason it can be found out and though by no speech it can be clearly expressed yet notwithstanding it is to be acknowledged most true Haeretici sunt sibi arbitri Religionis Heretics are to themselves judges of Religion Whereas the proper work of Religion is the Duty of Obedience to Authority Non ad Scripturas provocandum est We must not disputing with Heretics appeal to Scripture Neither is the debate to be constituted in things in which either no victory at all will follow or an uncertain one or little better than uncertain For though the success of examining Scriptures should not be such that each party should have no advantage over the other yet due order requires that that should be first proposed about which at present we are to dispute viz. to which of the parties the preaching of Faith belongs who have right to the Scriptures from whom and by whom and when and to whom that Discipline has been delivered by which men are made Christians For where the Truth both of Christian
Discipline and Faith shall appear to be there also will be the Truth of Scriptures and Expositions and all Christian Traditions Si quid horum per orbem frequentat Ecclesia Amongst such things whatsoever is practised by the Church through the world to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein is a mark of most insolent madness Scire sufficit It is a sufficient Motive to reject from our Belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the Church Dicet aliquis si Divinis eloquiis It may be demanded how if both the Devil and his Disciples do make use of and apply Divine Scriptures Sentences and Promises of whom some are false Apostles others false Prophets and all of them Heretics What shall Catholic children of our Mother the Church do How shall they discern truth from falshood in interpreting Holy Scriptures Hereto we answer according as we have received from Holy and learned men before us that they must be very careful to interpret Scriptures according to the Traditions of the Universal Church and according to the Rules of Catholic Doctrine THE SECOND QUESTION BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT §. 45 CAth. Sir Have you considered seriously on the Subject of our last Discourse Prot. Yes Cath. And have you found either in Scripture Tradition Councils or Holy Fathers any warrant to remain divided both in Doctrine and Discipline from all Churches antiently existent upon Earth and at the same time to profess notwithstanding a Belief of One Holy Catholic Church out of whose Communion there is no Salvation Prot. I freely accknowledge that I am not able to produce any considerable Quotations to confront yours Quotations I mean asserting the Authority of particular or new-erected Churches independent on others Cath. Then since it seems both Scripture Tradition Councils and Fathers have given their Testimonies against you Why are you still a Protestant §. 46. Prot. Sir I suppose you do believe I should be very glad to find out a Church to whose Authority I could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment and securely to commit my Soul to her guidance But hitherto not having been able to find such an one I must be content to stay where I am For as for the Roman Church to whose Communion alone you would invite me she appears to me so wholly depraved that I think a real Miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her Communion Cath. I see Sir that you despairing to justifie your own Churches and to excuse them from Schism do seek to draw me to particular Disputes By which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all whatever the success of such Disputes shall be For still the unpardonable guilt of Schism will lie upon you However I will not refuse so far to comply with you Therefore tell me Wherein consists that depravation you speak of Prot. It consists in this that both her Doctrines and Discipline are framed as on purpose to comply with wordly interests and by consequence are opposed to the Spirit of Christianity Cath. How does that appear §. 47. Prot. It appears more than sufficiently in this that as the late learned Arcbishop of Spalato observes all those Points of your Belief and Practice which we condemn and for which we separate from your Church are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her Ambition or Covetousness Cath. Which are the Points which you suppose to comply with Ambition Prot. These which here follow 1. Your Churches assuming the Title of Catholic to her self alone with exclusion of all other Churches 2. The Popes assumed Universal Authority 3. His pretended Infallibility in determining Controversies 4. His usurped Temporal Authority 5. A Power to be acknowledged as given to Priests by consecrating the outward Symbols to make the glorified Body of our Saviour present on the Alter 6. The Offering it in Sacrifice to the Father 7. The exposing of it to mens Adoration 8. The Obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to Priests in Confession and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them 9. A proud esteem of attaining to Iustification and Salvation by your own Merits Thus your Clergy not content to invent Doctrines proper to procure their own Exaltation would instill Pride into the people also §. 48. Cath. For what Doctrines do you accuse the Roman Church of Covetousness Prot. Of this latter sort are the Romane Doctrines 1. Touching Prayer for the dead and Purgatory out of the torments whereof Souls are to be redeemed by Masses Alms c. 2. The gaining of Heaven by mony given for Indulgences 3. The Invocation of Saints 4. The worshipping of their Images and Relicks To which Pilgrimages are ordained with costly Offerings c. §. 49. Cath. This Observation made by the infamous Apostate you named if rightly considered truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere yet not in the Church but much rather in those who seperated from her For it strongly argues that since to oppose her they made choice only of those Points which regarded the Honour Authority and Wealth of the Clergy the true Motives inducing them to rebel against the Church were not any zeal for Truth or care for their Souls for they acknowledg her Orthodox as to all Points of Doctrine approved by former Heretics That therefore which stirred up their rage against her was Envy Hatred of Obedience and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the Treasure and Possessions conferred on her by the Piety of their Holy Progenitours Now Sir tell me sincerely If you were to establish a Church would you take for your pattern that Schismatical King Ieroboam who chose Priests from the dreggs of the People or God himself who instituted a splendid Clergy Prot. It cannot indeed be denied but that contemptible needy and depending Directours of Souls will but very meanly discharge so high an Office as Christ has committed to them having made them Spiritual Iudges of Mankind and stiled them the Light of the world and the Salt of the Earth §. 50. Cath. If the first Reformers had been of your Judgment they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate Passions But Sir if you please let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to Almighty God to whom alone they are open and transparent However this may with full assurance be asserted That if Sacriledge and freedom from Ecclesiastical Iurisdiction were not the only prime Motives they were and will be the prime Effects of your multiplied Reformations §. 51. Prot. I am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side And therefore I will henceforth consider the forementioned Points in debate between us absolutely and in themselves And so doing you must give me leave to say That this also may with full assurance be asserted that whatever Motives the Roman Church may have to
the Roman Empire to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions and yet Unity essential to the Church being always to be preserved which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church to take care that the common established Laws former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed to prevent any innovations in Doctrine and also to end Controversies among Catholics if any arise at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them by which all Schisms are prevented and also Heresies that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed and lastly to judg in causis majoribus when quarrels arise among Patriarks Metropolitans c. Thus stands the case and now I appeal to your own Conscience whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church And whether if you were appointed and also enabled to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is there must of necessity be a Government and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves For if as some among us pretend the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters and no degrees of authority among Bishops it could not possibly have happened that a few unarmed Bishops not assisted by Secular Power should so immediately after the Apostles have subdued such a world of Presbiters formerly supposed their equals to their Iurisdiction and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans Primate Patriarks and of all these to the Supream Pastor Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision is very much abated Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this to you formerly Rock of offence I may I suppose proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction Prot. No Sir You go too fast For though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope as has been acknowledged by General Councils and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons since I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs But your Church will not be contented with this for she will extend it also to Temporal matters even to the disposing of Kingdoms deposing of Princes absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it and as by Divine Right Cath. How do you ground such an assurance you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof because some of his Predecessors have challenged it when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due Prot. No truly especially if that Authority to which he pretended endangers the ruine of Kingdoms or the utter banishment of Peace every where For such an Authority I am sure was never established on earth by our Saviour who is the Prince of Peace And that which makes me assured hereof is this because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world he would have left in Scripture or Tradition most express proofs of such his will in a matter of that infinite importance whereas the quite contrary rather appears Cath. You say well But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him or to acknowledg the justice of it Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material But to rectify your mistake I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day and thence you may collect what must be required from you in case you are a Catholic Prot. You will much oblige me therein Cath. Then it cannot be denyed that besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign several Popes in former times have both Challenged and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires Which Iurisdiction if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings either obnoxious and unable to resist or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels Several examples hereof remain in our Records particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third But generally Princes when freed from such exigences have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times and cast our view on the present state of Christendom we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions that not any of them will permit Rescripts Bulls or Mandats from Rome though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs unless touching private inferior persons to be published and much less executed within their states till examined and approved in their respective Councils Nay more then this even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes have always been refused to