things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
epist 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter Qui sit how commeth it to passe saith he that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope That I say nothing of Formosus doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another what should I speake of Innocentius and Coelestinus Pelagius and Gregories decrees one contrarie to another By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie The fourth reason conuersion of countries In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome beginneth with an vntruth saying that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ were first conuerted to his faith by such as either were precisely sent or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe not from Peter conuerted many countries That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe the scriptures are plaine in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith As the father hath sent me so send I you what can be more plaine Paul saith of himselfe that he was an Apostle neither of men nor by men but by Iesus Christ How many countries did Paul conuert Concerning this land I spake something before Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum eosque ad Scythias misit prouided men followers of the Apostles labours and sent them to the Scythians The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus whome Athanasius ordained Bishop as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem by a woman that was a captiue Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme They which take paines in conuersion of countries hold the true religion But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries ergo I denie the proposition and say to the Papists as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies Math. 23. woe be to you Papists for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made ye make him twofold more the child of hell Heretikes haue laboured to conuert or rather to peruert men Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 affirmeth that euill men shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and beeing deceiued The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum as witnes Theodoret and others writers As touching the conuersion of the west Indians if things be true that are reported Sadeel con are pos in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword If our Sauiour Christ had saide Goe kill all nations when he saide Goe teach all nations he had fitted the Papists humour What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion I know not but this I am sure of that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England But to returne to the Indies The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement Iuel 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate some worshipped the sunne some familiar deuills what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God Calvine not to speake of others read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare and preached aboue two hundred sermons Who conuerted England Scotland Ireland and other countries from Antichrist to Christ from the Masse to the Messias from Images to the seruice of the liuing God did not poore Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius and other Protestants the ministers of England labour in their owne charges preaching in season and out of season God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules in times past it was not so hodie proh dolor saith Aeneas Sylvius Lib. 1. de geâ—â— con Basil now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things Againe Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church speaketh thus Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam quà m decem solidorum Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements Thus then I returne the argument They which esteeme money more then the soules of men are not the true Church But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men Ergo. Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not neither am I priuie to the successe they had Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them the fault is not in the doctrine but in the men who resist the same I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance by the meanes of another though he be an vnpenitent person The Doctors rayling vpon Luther Calvin and Peter Martyr calling his wife fustilugges fitteth the spirit of a Papist If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues 1. Cor. â— I answer with Paul Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages and to wast paper But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth to spread abroad religion why are they then exiles and haue witnessed their religion with their blood In a word Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes then by conscience and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them The fifth reason largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers That the Church which the Messias was to plant must be dispersed throughout all nations and kingdomes as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed we acknowledge neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies I may well say of the Doctor as did
speake Aut verò congregatione synodi opus erat vt aperta pernicies damnaretur quasi nulla haeresis aliquando nisi Synodi congregatione damnata sit cum potius rarissimae inveniantur propter quas damnandas necessitas talis extiterit multoque sint atque incomparabiliter plures quae vbi extiterunt illic improbari damnarique meruerunt atque indè per caeteras terras devitandae innotescere potuerunt Was it necessarie a Councell should be gathered to condemne open mischiefes as if no heresie had beene condemned without a Councell whereas very few are found for the condemning of which there hath bin such necessitie and there are without comparison moe which deserued to be condemned where they did spring vp that being so condeÌ„ned they might be made known vnto other countries Out of this testimonie I gather these two things first that it may be an heresie though not condemned by a Councell secondly I gather that in Augustines time there were few heresies for the condemning of which Councells were gathered together To proceede You say whosoeuer were condemned by Councells confirmed by the See Apostolicall were euer deemed and indeede were heretikes What say you to Cyprian De vnico lap cap. 14. whom as Augustine reporteth Stephanus Bishop of Rome censuit excommunicandum esse deemed to be excommunicated 8. book 4 chap. Bellar. lib. 2. de con cap. 5. Eusebius saith that scripsit vniuersis conterminis gentibus he wrote to all countries that were neare that he would not communicate with them because they did rebaptize heretikes Was Cyprian either an heretike or of that minde that whatsoeuer the Pope did condemne was heresie why did he not then yeild to Stephanus who was Pope For I thinke you meane by the See Apostolike the Pope otherwise you condemne Eugenius who saide as Aeneas Sylvius reporteth that tantum aebest vt generalibus Concilijs debeat obedire vt se dicat tunc maximè mereri cum concilij decreta contemnit It is so farre from him that he should obey generall Councells that he doth then best deserue when he doth contemne the decrees of the same But I reduce your Argument into a syllogisme They which are condemned by the Councell of Trent are heretikes But the Protestants are condeÌ„ned by the Councell of Trent Ergo they are heretikes I denie the proposition for it is against all reason that they which are parties that are partiall that are accused should be the onely iudges Augustine saith Solis Canonicis scriptis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum I ought to consent onely to the Canonicall scriptures without any refusall De nâ—t grat â— Nicolaus de Clemangijs writeth that Ecclesia quandoque contraria determinat the Church doth sometimes determine contraries in Fas vâ—ta ex Againe Trita regula est ecclesia militans fallit fallitur it is an old rule the Church militant doth deceiue and is deceiued Gregorie his speach who saith that he doth reuerence the foure first Councells as the foure Gospels de alijs suspitionem in animis hominum relinquit leaueth a suspition in the minds of men of other Councels Saith the same man the councell of Neocaesaria condemned second marriages this is not confessed by Bellarmine in his tractate of councells least he should graunt that Councells may erre But in his first booke of marriage and 17. chap. he writeth that Concilium tractat de secundis nuptijs qua contrabuntur mortua priore vxore the Councell doth entreat of second marriages which are made the former wife beeing dead Hence I thus conclude That Councell which condemneth second marriages erreth but this Councell condemneth second marriages ergo And touching your Tridentine conuenticle why doe not your men stand to the decrees of the same Arias Montanus reiecteth the bookes from the bodie of the holy bible which we doe Catharin teacheth that a man may be certen of grace yet these opinions are condemned in your chapter of Trent if we beleeue Bellarmine Againe if your chapter of Trent teacheth rightly of originall sinne why doth the same Catharin teach that it is nothing els but Adams actuall transgression and disobedience Noli esse tam iniustus be not so vnequall M. Doctour to binde vs with your councell of Trent when your owne men dissent from the same Where you say that we shall vtterly vanish away because we haue no head to gather a generall Councell I acknowledge you to be a false and no true prophet We see the fall of Babylon daily more and more and the madnesse of them that seeke to vphold her daily more and more manifest You say also that we receiue fixe Councells â—hem Act. 15. yet your fellows maruell that we attribute much to the foure first and nothing to the rest it were good for you to agree amongst your selues before you charge vs with errour Lastly the libertie of our Gospel is such as Gods word doth teach 1â— epist ego saith Augustine solis eis scripturarum libris I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour onely to the canonicall Scriptures that no author of them can erre The 10. reason Fathers The Doctour in the beginning of this chap. proijcit ampullos casteth out loftie and arrogant words after this manner The Catholike Romane religion is most plainly taught by all the ancient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixt hundred yeares and hath beene euer without controuersie taught of the fathers of euery age since vntill this day This proud bragge I haue disprooued before by many testimonies and now by Gods helpe I will make it manifest to boyes Theophilus Alexandrinus is plaine against traditions in his 2. paschal sermon he writeth thus Daemoniaci est spiritus instinctus aeliquid extra scripturarum authoritatem putare divinum it is the instinct of a deuillish spirit to thinke any thing diuine without authoritie of scriptures what spirits then haue Papists but deuillish spirits who fight for their trash of traditions Caesarius is as plaine for reading of the Scriptures in his 20. homilie he taketh away the excuse commonly vsed for not reading the same Nemo dicat non mihi vacat legere Let no man say I am not at leisure to read the Scriptures Inanis invtilis est excusatio ista this excuse is vaine and vnprofitable Marke the Eremite hath written a booke against those which thinke to be iustified by works in which booke this notable sentence is extant Regnum coeloruÌ„ non est merces operuÌ„ sed gratia domini fidelibus servis praeparata the kingdome of heauen is not the wages of workes but the grace of God prepared for faithfull seruants In his booke de baptisme of baptisme he teacheth the same Mandata ipsa non tellunt peccatum hoc enim per solam crucem factum est sed donata nobis libertatis limites custodiunt The commandements take not away finne for that is done onely by the
his minde at his death it had beene something but seeing he continued constant against the Popish doctrine it is a sure argument of his setled minde against that religion although he could not see all errours at the first Maruaile not then M. Doctor though by little and little he taught against your erroneous doctrines Augustine saith that nemo nisi imprudens quia mea errata reprehendo Lib. 1. Retract me audebit repreheÌ„dere No man that is wise wil find fault with me because I finde fault with my selfe Touching the alteration of the Communion booke we haue made no great alteration these fourtie yeares of it And yet knowe we M. Doctor that ceremonies and matters of indifferencie may be changed so oft as the Church shall see cause But say you who so doeth obserue daiely the order thereof is a cold Protestant or an Atheist for his labour This sauoureth of your accustomed railing and therefore deserueth no answere As for the communion in leauened or vnleauened bread heare your angelicall Doctor Thomas non est de necessitate Sacraments Tertia Pâ— 74. art 4. quod sit azimus vel fermentatus panis quia in vtroque confici potest conueniens autem est vt vnusquisque seruet ritum suae Ecclesia It is not of the necessitie of the Sacrament that it should be either vnleauened or leauened bread but it is conuenient that euery man obserue the rite of his church in the celebration of the Sacrament That some in stead of wine take in the communion nappie ale it may be true in Papists but I knowe no protesants that doe it and as for placing the Communion table and praying with a mans face either towards the south or north be matters of indifferencie Walfridus Strabo writeth of this point thus Vnusquisque suâ— sensu abundet Let euery man abound in his owne sense Yea he sheweth that the altars did not looke all one way but there followeth a great matter concerning reuerend Iewel who first gloried that Christs flocke was little but afterwards vaunted much that our doctrine must needes be true because it was spread so largely As though this reuerend man might not auouch Christs flocke to be sometimes little See Sâ—câ— in his 5. booke and sometimes to be large But if this be such inconstancy I pray you learne M. Doctor that your selues were woont to prooue you to be the Church because of vniuersalitie But nowe your Rhemists seeing Antichrists kingdome lessended will needs prooue your selues the Church vpon the 20. of the â—eueâ— because of the small number Thus is vnconstancie turned vpon your owne heades for indeed it seemeth that you care not what you write to discharge the Pope from beeing Antichrist The same Rhemists will one while haue the reuolt of which Paul speaketh 2. Thessal 2. chap. to be vnderstood from the Romane Empire immediately they say it is very like to be from the Romane Church O admirable constancie What should I examplifie your inconstancie howe Saints heare our praier one whiles they heare them this way another whiles that way These you may read in Bellarmine himselfe the constancie of worshipping of your Images is vncoÌ„stant as I can prooue vnto you Luther his change of opinions I haue answered before the old prouerb may heare fitly be vsed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no one man seeth all things and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the second cogitations are best I will requite the Duke of Saxonie his speech with another it is reported saith Gryneus that he should say Although I am not ignorant that there haue both errours and abuses crept into the Church yet I will not imbrace that Gospel which Luther preacheth Thus the man as I thinke with whose saying you ende your chapter M. Doctor hath done you more harme then good The 18. reason False Prophets and teachers As the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe foretolde that in the later daies there should come false Prophets so we find it by experience Now let vs see whether the notes of false Prophets agree to your selues or vnto vs. To prooue that they agree vnto vs you frame this reason They which come vnsent are false prophets But the Protestants come vnsent ergo The assumption is prooued because we haue neither ordinary or extraordinarie callings Extraordinarâ—e calling we haue none because we worke no miracles that we haue no ordinarie calling it is plaine I answer that Luther Zuinglius and some others were ordained Elders by your selues And therefore they were called ordinarily According to your calling if they were Elders they might preach true doctrine for I hope you ordained not them to preach false doctrine If they lost their ordination because they renounced poperie then haue you lost yours much more because you haue renounced Christs doctrine But I thinke you will not say that they lost their ordination because of your indelible character the Sacraments which imprint this cannot be repealed one of which you make Orders But I would not haue you to thinke that we esteeme so much of your calling as that we regard it beeing corrupt The wicked asked Christ for his authoritie Mat. 21. He that preacheth the Apostles doctrine hath authoritie enough the estate of this church beeing corrupted so that he cannot haue that calling which he would He that is sent to preach may not hold his tongue and tarrie till your Lord the Pope and his mitred fathers can inteÌ„d to consent But you require miracles I answer that Iohn Bapt. did no miracle Thom. 3. 3â— quaest art 2. resp ad 2. giueth this reason Si Iohannes signa fecisset homines ex aequâ— Iohanni Christo attendissent If Iohn had done any miracles men would haue equally attended to him and to Christ It is sufficient that our doctrine is confirmed by Christs miracles Further M. Doctor our preachers were called by the Christian Magistrates whose allowance they had which to be warrantable your selues cannot denie But why doe I followe this point any further Coster a papist confesseth that Quanquam plerique haereticorum Episcopi presbyteri doctores ex ordine munus officium docendi acceperunt nulli tamen facultas data est noua decreta fabricandi sed hoc tantùm candidè sincerè tradendi quod ei qui misit probatur Although many Bishops Elders and Doctors of haeretickes haue receiued orderly the dutie to teach yet to no man is power giuen to make newe opinions but sincerely to deliuer that which is approoued vnto him that sent him Wherefore you reiect our calling prooue that we coyned newe opinions Eusâ—b l. 6. 1â— cap. Origen taught before he was ordained Elder when the Church was sound Demetrius reprehended Alexander Bishop of Hierusalem and Theodistus of Caesarea for suffering him so to doe but they defend themselues and shewe that it may be done ad commodandum fratribus to profit the brethren If this might be done in Constituta Ecclesia in an