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authority_n	ancient_a	father_n	scripture_n	2,104	5	5.3760	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08533	The picture of a Puritane: or, A relation of the opinions, qualities, and practises of the Anabaptists in Germanie, and of the Puritanes in England VVherein is firmely prooued, that the Puritanes doe resemble the Anabaptists, in aboue fourescore seuerall thinges. By Oliuer Ormerod, of Emmanuel Colledge in Cambridge. Wherunto is annexed a short treatise, entituled, Puritano-papismus: or a discouerie of Puritan-papisme.	Ormerod, Oliver, 1580?-1626.	1605 (1605)	STC 18852; ESTC S113478	77,758	124

other sleights besides these that you haue already mencioned The Germaine The 9. semblance YEs b Sleidan in C●m 5. there was one Thomas Muncer a Preacher who as Sleidan and other Germaine-writers reporte did greately labour both by his conferences in priuate by his Sermons in publike to draw the common people from their liking of the present estate The Englishman It hath likewise beene the practise of our factious preachers in their verball Sermons to speake against the stat● ecclesiasticall the book of common prayer the rites ceremonies of the Church of England For the proofe heereof I referre you to the very confession of their owne lippes On Tuesday saith c Anno 1586. one of their owne side T. C. kept Maister Fens Lecture the Text Psalme 122 4. Vnto the end taking thornes as T●emelius doth and vrging the discipline the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause that some friendes for sooke our Church And as this is the practise of some of our factious Ministers in England so is it also the practise of the same faction in Scotland Yea d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 38. 39. they snapper out grosselye with the truth of their intentions informing the people that all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the libertye of the Church and can neuer patientlye beare the yoake of Christ with such sound Doctrine fed they their flockes The Germaine The 10. Sēblance THe Anabaptists did not content themselues therewithal but to the end they might doe y● more harme they published factious Bookes to the view of the world as may bee gathered by this speech of Maister Zuinglius to the Magistrates in his time a Zuinglius de Baptism Si hoc cuiuis hominum impune facere licebit vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imo resistente etiam vniuersatotius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quam fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it bee lawfull for euery man to publish abroad among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne head before he hath consulted with the Church nay against the authoritie of the whole Church in short time we shall see more errours in the Church then there be faithful men and Christians And in an other place Si hoc permittamus vt capitosus quisque male-feriatus homo c. If we suffer euery headie braineles fellow so soone as he hath conceiued any new thing in his minde to publish it abroad gather disciples and make a new sect in short time we shall haue so many sects factions that Christ which scarse with a great paine and labour is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many parts The Englishman Neyther did our Puritanes therewithall content themselues but that their poyson might ranckle the farther to the disturbance perrill both of the Church common-wealth they haue published a great number of Bookes which are as fit for the fire as the Bookes of curious Artes Act. 19. Yea and they haue also exhorted the common-people to peruse these their sedicious Pamphlets I pray you say they b In a Booke of theirs entituled the state of the church of England c. Page 10. when you come to London see if you can get these bookes The Ecclesiastical Discipline A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The Counterpoyson A Se●mon on the 12. to the Romans and Ma●ster Cartwights last reply some of which bookes haue been extant this dozen yeares and yet are not them answered and you shall there finde that the gouernment of the Church is contrary to the word of God But not to speake onely of their Bookes in g●nerall l●t vs take a view of the Contents thereof in particular The Germaine Our Sectaries did stuffe their bookes with inuectiues and out-cries both against the Magistracie and the Ministerie TO begin with the Magistracie they taught as Maister The 11. sēblance a Bulling aduers Anabap. Fol. 19. Bullinger also recordeth that the Ci●il Magistrate hath no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and that hee ought not to meddle in causes of Religion and Faith The Englishman Our Sectaries come not farre behinde them heerein as appeareth by these their spee●hes b T. C. lib. 1. Page 192 for the making of orders and ceremonies in the Church saith T. C. they doe where there is a constituted ordered Church pertaine vnto the Ministers of the church and to the Ecclesiasticall gouernours and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuill Lawes and Lawes for the common-wealth so the ciuill Magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies partaining to the Church c T. C lib 2 Page 1●5 And againe No ciuil Magistrates in councels or assemblies for Church-matters can eyther be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or d●t●rminer d Admon 2 No ciuil Magistrate say the admonitors hath such authoritie as that without his consent it should not be lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to make any church-order or ceremonie e Admon 1 And againe To these three ioyntlie that is the Ministers Seniors and D●acons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed By this you may see that our Sectaries doe shake hands both with the Anabaptists the Papists But albeit these three contrary factions haue vnited ioyned themselues together and doe al ioyntly oppugne the Princes authoritie in causes ●cclesiasticall yet the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures the judgement of the auncient Fath●rs the decisions of auncient Counsels and the practi●e of Christian Princes in the p●imatiue Church are able to seuer and dis-ioyne all their forces To beginne with the Scriptures they giue sufficient warrant to ciuill Gouernours to ordaine Lawes in Ecclesiastical causes and doe expressely teach that a 2. Reg 12 4 2 Chro. 19. 4. Ibid●m 30 1 34. 3. Iehosaphat Hezekias and Iosias did make Lawes for the recalling excercising of the Seruice of God As for the Fathers they holde it to bee an Oracle for truth that b Aug. Epi. 48 Kinges doe serue Christ in making lawes for Christ Yea c Aug. Epi. 50 Rex aliter seruit Domino saith Saint Augustine quia homo est aliter quia etiam Rex est Quia homo est ei seruit viuendo fideliter quia vero Rex est seruit leges iust a praecipientes contraria prohibentes conuenienti vigore sanciendo A King serueth the Lord one way as he is a man and an other way as he is a King As hee is a man he serueth him by liuing faithfully As he is a King he serueth him by making lawes with conuenient vigor to cōmaunde that which is right and forbid the contary But not to insist onely vpon Saint Augustins iudgement The d Vide Sozomen lib. 1. cap 17. Bishops that came to the counsell of Nice gaue to the Emperour

si●●ipsius verā mentem dian●i in et analogian And of the same iudgement are all other writer of note The Puritane Though all other writers bee of the same judgement yet it is to no purpose to tell me of them for they wil not mooue mee for say what you will against the Bretheren I will nearer beleeue that you can bring them within the compasse of Heresie The Protestant Yes and within the compasse of idolatrie too The Puritane I would gladly heare that The Protestant That obstinate Puritanes are Idolaters I trust to make it plaine and euident by this argument Those that worshippe their owne opinions conceites and fancies and yeelde not to the truth though neuer so plainly demonstrated are 〈◊〉 But obstinate Puritanes doe worshippe their owne opinions conceites and fancies and yeeld not to the truth though it hath beene plainely demonstrated vnto them therefore they are idolaters The Puritane I deny first your proposition The Protestant That it is Idolatrie to worshippe a mans owne opinions and not to yeelde to truth I prooue it by this speech of the Apostle c Coloss ● 5 couetousnes is idolatrie From which saying of his I dispute thus If the Apostle hold those to bee idolaters that did set their hearts vpon their ●i●ches and were so wedded vnto them as that no perswasion could bring them from the loue of thē the consequence is not to be rebuked that we inferre vpon it that we may as well tearme them idolaters that doe set their hearts vppon their opinions and are so wedded vnto them as that neyther the authoritie of sacred scriptures nor the iudgement of auncient Fathers 〈◊〉 the consent of late writers nor the good lawes of Christian Princes can driue them from them My proposition is also confirmed by the iudgement of the 〈◊〉 Fathers a 〈◊〉 in l. 1. 〈◊〉 i● Habac. cap. 5 〈◊〉 et 〈◊〉 saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 b Hieren in Dan. Cap. 3 Qui 〈◊〉 sum dogma 〈…〉 faci●nt et quantum in se 〈…〉 idolu● falsitatis c Hieron in Hier●m c ●2 Againe vs● 〈◊〉 in templ● Dei quae interpretatur ecclesia siue in 〈…〉 ponitur idolum quando 〈…〉 And in the pla●● 〈◊〉 quoted d Hieron in Habacu cap. 2 Si 〈…〉 credere veritati ●t 〈…〉 in 〈◊〉 studio perseuerare cong●●e 〈◊〉 discere sperat 〈…〉 et facit 〈…〉 Saint Austen also is of the same iudgement with Saint Hierom as appeareth in his booke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 it a 〈◊〉 and a bas●●●i●de of idolatry to worshippe a mans owne fancies then to worshippe the Sunne the Moone the Stars His vordes are these e Aug. de ver● relig cap. 38. Est alius deterior et inferior ●ul●us simulachrorum quo phantasmata sua colunt et quicquid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 superbia veltimore cogitando imaginati fuerint religionis nomine obseruant With these auncient Fathers agree some of our best la●e writers f ● Bilson in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the true difference of Christian subiection part 1. page 30. A corrupt and vitious Religion saith a reuerend ●nd learned Bishoppe i● an inward and Ghostly worshippe of I 〈…〉 saith another learned 〈◊〉 to worshippe 〈…〉 not to yeelde to truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 To him consent●● Maister D. Sutcliffe in his challēge cap. 5. Perkins who preuenting a secret obiection saith thus h Perkins in his Booke intituled a warning against the idolatrie of the last times ●●●ge 15. It may be further said that false opinions conceiued of Christ 〈◊〉 not straight way 〈…〉 I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hierome Euen to this 〈…〉 set vp in the house of God 〈◊〉 in the ●ear●● and soules of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when a new Doctrine is d●uised Againe a false opinion is an idoll of falshood The 〈◊〉 to the Discipline of the Church haue they beene vanquished in open disputation The Protestant You haue heard I am sure of the late conference wherat our Princ● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Emperour Constantine who as a Eus●b de ●it● Constantin lib. 1. cap 37. Eusebius recordeth shewed an excellent and especiall care towards the Church of Christ Iesus calling Councells of Bishops when any dissention 〈…〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by God not disdayning to be present and conferre with th●● that so he might the rather keepe them in Christian peace and who as the same writer b Eus●b de ●ita Cōstantini ● 3 cap. 13. testifieth marked aduisedly what euery man sayd helped eyther side disputing tempered such as kindled too fast reasoned my ●dly with each part and vndertooke ioyntly with them to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seale least other Iudges Rulers should infringe them The Puritane I haue heard of the conference but I pray you what was the issue therof The Protestant Surely the Agents for the Millinary Plaintiffes were there vanquished in disputation and driuen to c See the 〈◊〉 of the conference confesse that their opinions were meere nouelties and new deuised fancies All which notwith-standing many of their Proselytes and followers doe still continue obstimate So that we may well say of them as Saint Austen said of the like p●●●ish fellowes in his time d August de baptis contr● donat lib 3 cap. ●2 mal●●nt peruersis vocibus veritati reluctari quam confessis erroribus paci restitu● God giue them grace to recant their ●rrours and not to shew themselues still like Pilate who would not alter any thing he had written but said that which I haue written Iohn 19 22 I haue written The 3. Dialogue VVherein is shewed that it doth not stand with equitie that some Ministers should bee bound to shew their 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 others be dispensed with The Protestant WELL ouer-taken Sir whither trauell you The Puritan● I trauell towards the Parliament The Protestant What are you one of the Burgess●s The Purita●● No I am a Minister The Protestant Are you a Minister why weare you not then a Priest cloake with sleeues as you are inioyned in the late Book● of 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 Ecclesiasticall I tooke you for one of the Burgesses because you differ not from them in ●abit The Puritane What reason is there that the fashion and 〈◊〉 of Ministers 〈◊〉 should bee different from other me●● The Protestant 〈◊〉 great reason 〈◊〉 asked his messengers who●e hee had sent to the God of Ekro● for ●racle of what 〈◊〉 and habit the man was that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and they answeared a 2. King ● ● he was an ●airie man 〈◊〉 girded with a girdle of leather about his ●oynes Which was a marke of knowledge enough to Ahaziah though they knew not his name It is Elijah the Thes●ite said hee Now as the Prophet Elijah did weare a different habite whereby hee was known from other men so should Ministers doe that when we meete them we may know them to bee Ministers

Sonne in the faith grace mercy and peac● from God our Father and Christ Iesus our Lord. To prooue that Arch-bishops c. and their Offices came out of the Popes shoppe c Admon pag. 209. they quote Luke 16. 25. But Abraham said Sonne remember that thou in thy life time receiuedst thy pleasures and likewise Lazarus paines now therefore is hee comforted and thou art tormented To prooue that there ought to be an ●quality of Ministers d Amon. 1. page 124. sect 1. they quote in their Margent 2. Cor. 10. 7. Looke yee on thinges after the appearance If any trust in himselfe that he is Christes let him consider this againe of himselfe that as he is Christes euen s●●re ●e Christes To prooue that Ministers should not weare Cappes Gownes c but that they should bee knowne by their voice learning and Doctrine e Admon 1. page 53. sect vit they quote Math. 26. 48. Now hee that betrayed him had giuen them a token saying whosoeuer I shall kisse that is hee lay holde on him And verse 73. They that stoode by said vnto Peter surely thou art also one of thē for euen thy speech be●rayeth thee To prooue that tyranous Lordshipe as it pleaseth them to call it cannot stand with Christes King dome f In the preface of the Admonition they quote Math. 15. 23. But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 her not a word Then came to him his Disciples ●●d besought him saying send her away for the cryeth after vs. And Luke 16. 15. Then he sayd vnto them ye are they which iustifie your selues before men but God knoweth your hearts To prooue that e●●ry congregation ha● their De●cons a Admon pag. 114. sect 2. they quote Iohn 13. 27. And after the soppe Sathan entred into him Then said Iesus vnto him That thou doest doe quickely To prooue that ciuill offices joyned to the Ecclesiasticall are against the word of God b Admon pag. 216. sect 1. they quote Luke 9. 60. 61. And Iesus said vnto him let the dead bury the dead c. And 1. Timoth. 6. 11. But thou ô man of God flee these thinges and followe after righteousnesse Godlinesse faith loue patience and meekenesse To prooue that no ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernement may bee in the Church of God which the Scripture hath not in particular set downe T. C. c T. C. page 41. sect 1. quoteth 1 Cor 10. 31. Whether ye eate or drink or whatsoeuer ye doe doe all to the glory of God with these a thousād such like places are their Margents pestred Now r●duce euery one of these into a Syllogisticall forme and you shall see many a rediculous sequele The Germaine I see alreadie how ridiculous they are The Englishman Well then proceed to an other matter The Germaine The 40. sēblance OVr A●●●●●tists vsed an other falla●ie which d Arist de Sophist Elench lib. 1. cap. 5. Aristotle calleth agn●●antou elegchou which is committed when eyther the st●te of the question is changed or when the aduersarie i● opposing doth violate the lawe of oposition and disput●th not ad idem To make this plaine Zuinglius tooke vpon him to defend that some externall things may be brought into the Church which are not expressed in the Scriptures and they replyed as if he had said that some thinges necessary to saluation might haue been brought into the Church which are not in the Scriptures For they alleag●d Math. 1● 19. To which reply of theirs Zuingli●s thus answereth a Zuingliu● d● Baptism● I speake not as you say me to speake I speake onely of externall and indifferent thinges wherof there be many which are neyther commaunded nor forbiddē by any expresse word of God c. and againe for this that w● speake of is not necessarie vnto saluation but it is externall c. The Englishman b T. C. pag. 79. sect vlt. T. C. objected vnto the late Arch-bishope the selfe same text for the selfe same purpose to which objection of his the fore-named reuerend man answereth with Zuinglius The c Admon pag. 30. sect 2. admonitors also to prooue that those thinges onely are to be placed in Gods Church which God himselfe in his word commaundeth do quote De●t 4. 2. Ye shall put nothing to the word which I comma●●d you ● And Deut. 12. 32. Whatsoeuer I commaund you take heed ye doe it thou shalt put nothing thereto Thus you see that wheras we defend that matters of order gouernement and Discipline c. may bee vsed in the Church though they be not laide downe in the Scriptures they aleadge places against vs which onely prooue that we must not in matters of saluation adde any thing which may not bee gathered from the sacred Scriptures But what other false arguments vsed they The Germaine The 41. sēblance THey drewe arguments from the authori●●e of the Scripture negatiuely for which cause d Zuinglius in Elencho Zuinglius thus reprooueth them You can finde no hole to escape at for you foolishly reason negati●ely c. And againe you make the negatiue onely your foundation The Englishman e A testimoni● diuino valet argumentum affirmat●é negatiuè Keck●em lib. 3. System Logic cap. 16. A testimonie drawne from the authoritie of the Scriptures holdeth saith a late learned L●●itian both affirmatiuely and negatiuely but this maxime of his must be thus limited tenet in rebus subst antialibus non in accidentalibus that is an argument drawne from the authoritie of the Scriptures in reasoning about things substantiall or matters of saluation and damnation holdeth both affirmatiuely and negatiuely as for example God hath not layd downe this or that thing in scripture as a matter of saluation therfore it is not a matter of saluation But an argument drawne from the authority of the Scriptures negatiuely in reasoning about thinges accidentall or ceremoniall is of noe force And yet our Sectaries haue commonly vsed this kind of reasoning for which cause our late a In his defence of the answere to the Admon page 590. 591. reuerend Arch-bishop compared them to your Anabaptists But to leaue this particular what other sophistrie vsed your Anabaptists The Germaine What other Truely they immitated the Deuill that graund Sophister The Englishman The Deuill Wherin I pray you The Germaine When the Deuill had taken vp Christ into the holy Cittie and had set him on a pinacle of the Temple he began to dispute with him saying b Math. 4 5. If thou be the sonne of God cast thy selfe downe for it is written that he will giue his Angels charge ouer thee and with their hands they shal lift thee vp least at any time thou shouldest dash thy foote against a stone Loe heere the Deuill tooke vpon him to prooue that Christ could not possibly breake his neck though hee should throw himselfe head-long from the pinacle of the Temple The place which he aleaged for

the children themselues being once of discretion may with their owne mouth and with their owne consent openly before the Church confirme the same and also promise that by the Grace of God they will euermore endeuour themselues faithfully to obserue such thinges as they by their owne confession haue assented vnto Againe they say that we c Admon page 195. make the maried ma● to make an Idoll of his wife saying with my body I thee worship when as our meaning onely is that the man should as the Apostle biddeth him d 1. Peter 3. 7. giue honour vnto the woman as vnto the weaker vessell To conclude this construing of things in the worst part was a thing very common at the late conference as appeareth by these his Maiesties words e See the Proclamation for the authoriz We thought meet● with the consent of the Bishops and other learned m●n there present that some small thinges might rather bee explained then changed not that the same ●ight not verie well haue beene borne with by men who would haue made reasonable construction of them c. But to proceede to some other matters what other opinions held your Anababtists The Germaine The 61. Sēblance VVHy do you thus wearyme with relating their opinions Maister d Bullinger fol. 18. Bullinger telleth you that there was no stay in them but that daily they inuented new opinions and did runne from errour to errour The Englishman How new-fangle likewise our Nouellists are it appeareth by their often correcting altering and amending of their plat-forme of Discipline But what need I produce any arguments to proue this T. C. and his adherents in one of their examinations in the Starre-chamber did confesse and auouch it vpon their oathes e See the Survey of pretēded holy discipline that there were then after many meetings which they had some things in their draught of discipline wherein they were not resolued And I verily perswade my selfe that if our obstinate Ministers were pressed vpon their oathes they would notwithstanding all their ploddings together acknowledge that they are not resolued in all points what they would haue Yea this their affectation of noueltie was such as that it moued the Kings Maiestie to giue this admonition to all his Subiects f See the proclamation before alleadged We do admonish all men that hereafter they shall not expect nor attempt any further alteration in the common and publique forme of Gods seruice from this which is now established for that neither will wee giue way to any to presume that our iudgement hauing determined in a matter of this waight shall be swayed to alteration by the friuolous suggestions of any light spirits neyther are we ignorant of the inconueniences that doe arise in gouernment by admitting innouation in things once setled by mature deliberation and how necessarie it is to vse constancie in the vpholding of the publike determinations of States for that such is the vnquietnes and vnstedfastnes of some dispositions affecting euerie yere new formes of things as if they should be followed in their inconstancy would make all actions of states ridiculous and contemptible c. And thus you see how that our Sectaries doe affect new formes of thinges inuent new opinions runne from error to error as your Anabaptists did But what doe you coniecture to be the cause that these your Sectaries did thus runne from one new opinion to an other were not of a more stayed settled iudgement The Germaine The 62. sēblance TRuely it was as I coniecture because they contemned disdained the old fathers of the church and thought it the loosing of good houres to peruse their writings The Englishman It greeueth me to see how lightly our Sectaries also esteeme of the classicall principal Doctours of the church next the Apostles of Christ and their next succeeders whome they ought to a Ego illos ●●●eror ta●●● nominibus reuerence to doe a kinde of homage to their very names and to acknowledge that of them all which was said of b Sencea lib. 8. Epist 65 two of thē viz that they are euen the hammers of Hereticks the eyes of the world The Germaine Why how doe they account of these Starres and Ornaments of learning The Englishman How lightlye they account of them the verye worde● of T. C. doe make proofe who when he was vrged with the testimonies of Ignatius Tertulliā Cypriā Ierome Augustine ●nd others cryed out that c T. C. lib. 1 pag. 154 truth was measured by the crooked yard of time Yea he tearmeth the seeking into the Fathers writings d T. C. lib. 1 page 114 araking in Ditches The Germaine And doe they make the same reckoning too of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman The 63. sēblance YEs the Councell of Nice of Neosesarea of Gangren and of Orleance being quoted to proue the authoritie of the Church in thinges indifferent T. C. complained T. C. Lib 1 pag. 29. 32 that he was pestered with such a kinde of authoritie insteed of Isai Ieremie S. Paul and S. Peter The Germaine It is likely that they esteemed very lightly of the writings of heathē writers seeing that they made so small recconing of auncient Councels and Synodes The Englishman True did your Sectaries make any greater account of them The Germaine Ours no there was one Iohn Mathew their principal prophet that commaunded as Sleidan testifieth euery Sleidan lib 10 one of his followers to bring all his bookes whatsoeuer sauing the Bible to be publiquely burned which was accordingly performed The Englishman Belike then they were of opinion that all Gentile learning should be abandoned from the lips of Christians The Germaine The 64. sēblance YEs and especially from the lips of Preachers The Englishman Saint Augustine writing against Petilian telleth vs Aug lib 3. contra Petilian cap. 16. that the said Petilian his aduersatie did accuse him for a L●gi●ian and did bring Logicke it selfe to her try all before the people as the mistresse of forgery and lying and because he shewed some Rhethorike did note him by the name of Tertullus the Orator and charged him with the damnable wit of Carneades the Academicke Your Anabaptists I see were of Petilian his humor The Germaine True and are not your Sectaries so too The Englishman Yes My heart saith one of them in a certaine Schismatical a Intittled the State of the church of England pag 25 Booke that is very rife amongst our Puritans waxeth colde my flesh trembleth to heare you say that a Preacher should confirme his matter out of the Fathers and humaine writers doth preaching consist in quoting of Doctors alleadging of Poets Philosophers In what part of his commission hath a Minister warrant so to doe The Germaine In what part doth not S. Paul himself aledge b Act 17. 28 Aratus c 1 cor 15 33 Menander