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authority_n	ancient_a	church_n	time_n	2,337	5	3.6439	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A64381	A true account of a conference held about religion at London, Septemb. 29, 1687 between A. Pulton, Jesuit, and Tho. Tenison, D.D. as also of that which led to it, and followed after it / by Tho. Tenison.	Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715.	1687 (1687)	Wing T723; ESTC R18602	49,387	102

his first onset was very vigorous D. T. answered at first to this purpose That Mr. P. might send for that Book which he owned to be his Bible and out of that he would dispute with him or if that were too great a trouble he would borrow an English Bible in the house which was afterwards fetch'd and discourse out of that and endeavour to vindicate the Translation where it should be by Mr. P. excepted against This Method Mr. P. would not allow but repeated his discourse about our not having a Bible and our not being able if we had one to prove we had one and ask'd again about the Rule of our Faith. D. T. before he answered to this applied himself to Mr. M. who seem'd to be the calmer person and of a temper inclining to Piety and put him in mind that such discourses as these and some others lately used by the Romanists about the Trinity and Transubstantiation would rather make the people Atheists or Unbelievers than Converts and that the indifferent were ready to say Content We cannot believe Transubstantiation and we will have no Trinity we cannot have the Bible unless we take it upon Roman Authority and none we will have Mr. M. said That would not be the consequence but gave no reason why he said so Then D. T. turned to Mr. P. and told him that he began at a point of which the Boy had not said a tittle to him in the Closet or to his Master the first and chief thing said by him being that about Luther's Works and Sacraments and his Colloquy with the Devil Mr. P. at first denied that he had shown such a Book to the Boy and the Boy began at first to shuffle about the Story but afterwards own'd it his Master attesting it and upbraiding him with lying in that and other things Mr. P. then salv'd the matter by saying he did not show him the Book in Publick D. T. then replied Is not a thing shown because it is not shown in a Market this is the fruit of the ill art of Equivocation Mr. P. proceeded to talk about Luther and the Devil and his leaving Mass at the Devils instance this discourse of Mr. P's had very good effect upon the other servants in the house as they confessed to their Mistress they now perceiving that to be the Jesuits talk which the Boy had fathered upon the Doctor To Mr. P's discourse about Luther D. T. answered on this manner That our Church depended not upon Luther but Christ That Luther some grains of allowance being given to him as we ought to every man was an excellent instrument of God's That he ought to have read if he had not done so the Book lately published at Oxford Entituled The Spirit of Martin Luther That if Luther had said any where there were Three Sacraments he had said no more than Paschasius Radbertus who was the Inventer of Transubstant●ation That admitting the Story Luther after the Monkish way had put his Spiritual Conflict into the form of a Colloquy and that he might well suspect a device in the Devil when he disswaded him from the Mass for the Devil might think the Piety of Luther would be apt to move him for that reason to go the rather to Mass because the Devil had forbidden him D. T. added that one of the first disswasives from the Mass which made impression upon Luther was this He had been at Rome and said Mass there and heard it said and he took notice of the profaneness of the Mass-Priests and he over-heard the very Courtizans jeeringly saying that some who Consecrated had used these Words Bread thou art Bread thou shalt be Wine thou art Wine thou shalt be Mr. P. asked D. T. where he had this Story D. T. answered where he might have it in Luthers Life D. T. would have gone on and given Mr. P. a Story out of their second Synod of Nice for his story about Luther's Colloquy with the Devil but Mr. P. would not accept of an old Tale for a new one and tho D. T. began his Story at the request of the people five or six times Mr. P. would not suffer him to proceed out-noising him in such manner that D. T. ask'd him if he had the Art of curing the deaf The Story which was afterwards told to the people in the back room was this Abbot Theodore reported before the Fathers of that Council which decreed the Worship of Images how the Devil appeared to an Old Man who asked him why he had troubled him so long with temptations to uncleanness the Devil swore him to secresie and then said Adore this Image no more I will give you no further trouble the Image was that of the Blessed Virgin with the Holy Jesus in her Arms The old man revealed this to Abbot Theodore who said he should not have sworn to the Devil yet notwithstanding 't was better for him not to dismiss his Courtezan than to forbear to worship Christ and his Mother in an Image The Abbot continued and comforted the old man and sent him away the Devil appeared again and upbraided him with perjury the old man answered What I have sworn I have sworn c. The Good Fathers excused the breach of his Oath and went on to applaud the practice of Image-worship Mr. P. not suffering D. T. scarce so much as to begin this story joined with Mr. Meredith in asking what was the Rule of Fairh and where we had our Bible And as to the latter Mr. P. ask'd with great quickness who gave us the Copies how where when and the like Insomuch that D. T. told him he was doing the office of a Catechist rather than a Disputer However D. T. answered thus First The Rule of Faith is the Holy Bible the sum of it in necessary Doctrines is the Apostolical Creed Mr. P. said we had other Negative Articles No Purgatory c. D. T. replied they were Guards of our Creed but not properly Articles and that as Protestations against Them they were not very Ancient because their Errors were not all from the beginning and that we could not pull up the weeds before they were grown up Secondly That if they had any good proof of the Bible we had it too and that the first external inducement for the receiving of the Bible as written by such and such persons and as such a Book was not so much the Authority as the Testimony of the Universal Church of all Ages all agreeing in it and amongst others the Roman excepting the Apochryphal Books of later time raised by them into a level with the primary Canon whilst we have the same Canon the Ancient Church owned in the Council of Laodicea D. T. added That the Protestants took in the Testimony of Heathens as of Julian the Apostate who against himself owned three of the Evangelists and the Jews who had once the Oracles of God committed to them and from whom the

U. and Mrs. U. declared by themselves and the rather upon their taking notice of certain Arts of Lying not so much before observed by them she own'd that the aforesaid Stories were us'd by a Roman as Arguments to turn her I believe there might be false Stories to the prejudice of Mr. P. and his Friends but to the end that false Reports may not on either hand prevail this Account is written by D. T. which Mr. P. wheresoever he thinks it is faulty may please to correct Tho. Tenison A Pursuit of that which was said in the Conference about the three first Quotations viz. out of S. Ambrose de Sacramentis S. Cyril of Hierusalem in his Catechism and Justin Martyr in his Apology c. 1. FOR the Book de Sacramentis as not genuine it may suffice at present to say That though there was a Book written by S. Ambrose under that Title this is not it there not being found in this the Places which S. Austin cited out of that That the style is plainly more moderen and rude than that of S. Ambrose and his Age That the version of the places of Scripture mention'd in this Book is not the same with that which S. Ambrose uses in his genuine Works That this Book is taken notice of by the Writers of the 8th and 9th Age the time of the introducing of the Corporeal Presence The very eminent Cardinal Bona whose credit is greater than that of Alexander Natalis do's own all this the last words excepted Haec Ambrosius si tamen ipse horum librorum qui de Sacramentis inscribuntur Auctor est Testatur quidem Augustinus scripsisse Ambrosium libros de Sacramentis sive de Philosophia adverfus l'latonem quorum meminit lib. 2. Retract cap. 4. doctrina Christiana lib. 2. cap. 28. eosque pe●iit sibi mitti à S. Paulino Ep. 34. sed illi vel perierunt vel alicubi latent longè diversi sunt ab his qui nunc extant ut patet ex sententiis quas ex illis citat idem August lib. 2. primi operis adversus Julianum cap. 5. tribus sequentibus De his verò quos hodiè habemus fecit primò ut dubitarem styli diversitas cùm enim opera Ambrosii ante aliquot annos haud perfunctoriè percurrerem 〈◊〉 ad hoc pervent visus sum mihi alterius lingue hominem ab Ambrosio prorsus diversum loquentem audire Tum animadverti loca scripturae in his citata non esse ejus versionis quâ in aliis libris Ambrosius uti consuevit Quaedam etiam in his reperi quae seculo Ambrosii minùs convenire visa sunt Nihilominùs à Scriptoribus octavi nani seculi laudantur saepiùs tanquam Ambrosii legitimus foetus quorum auctoritati cedens eos deinceps sub ejus nomine cujus est possessio semper cit abo It is true he says at the end of his Discourse that notwithstanding his Reasons before alledged he yields to the Authority of the Writers of the 8th and 9th Age and that seeing they are in possession he will henceforth cite this Book under the name of S. Ambrose But considering the Time and the Doctrine then preparing for the papal stamp who wants the fagacity of understanding to what purpose this Book was forg'd and then brought forth as out of its antient mouldiness And for the humility of the Cardinal's deference to such late Authority against his solid reasons and judgment all know what that means in the Roman Communion where Writers after knowing that they have said things against the genius of that Church do in the end submit all at her feet So did Des-Cartes whose principles are utterly inconsistent with Transubstantiation So did Molinos the Father of the numberless off-spring of the present Quietists For this is the Conclusion of his first amply licensed and then rigidly condemned Guida spirituale Il tutto sottoponga humilimente prostrato alla Correttione della Santa Chiesa Catolica Romana After all this I do allow that Mr. P. was the less to be blamed in this Quotation considered as a Romanist because he cited it out of his Breviary and believ'd as his Church believed Of this spurious S. Ambrose and of the doctrine of the Eucharist in the true S. Ambrose I will say more when more is required I will add only at this time these two things First The Author cited out of the Breviary suppose him S. Ambrose is inconsistent with himself if Transubstantiation be an Article of his Faith. For he saith in another place non iste panis est qui vadit in Corpus sed ille panis vitae aeternae qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulcit That is it is not that Bread which goes into the Body but the Bread of Life eternal which sustains the substance of the Soul. Now what a Judge has Mr. P. chosen toward the deciding of a Controversie in which he is not reconcil'd to himself Secondly This Author in all probability has been further tamper'd with for he would scarce have said that in the Breviary seeing he own'd the Canon of the Mass in his time to run otherwise than now it does in the Roman Missal and to assert that the Elements were the Figure of Christ's Body Sècondly For the Testimony of S. Cyril it was not that cited thus in the Speculum S. Cyril Alexandrinus c. For Mr. P. spake of S. Cyril of Jerusalem and tho' he did not produce the words yet he said they were those in his fourth Mystagogical Catechism I say now as I then did That the place was long ago fully answered The place of S. Cyril is by a Romanist M. W. thus rendered Tho' you see it to be Bread yet believe it is the Flesh and the Blood of the Lord Jesus Doubt it not since he had said This is my Body And for a proof instances Christ's changing Water into Wine The Answer is this and it is a true one We acknowledge that the words of S. Cyril of Jerusalem were truly cited but for clearing of them we shall neither alledge any thing to the lessening the Authority of that Father tho' we find but a slender Character given of him by Epiphanius and others Nor shall we say any thing to lessen the Authority of these Catechisms tho' much might be said But it is plain S. Cyril's design in these Catechisms was only to possess his Neophytes with a just and deep sense of these holy Symbols But even in his fourth Catechism he bids them not to consider it as meer Bread and Wine for it is the Body and Blood of Christ. By which it appears he thought it was Bread still tho' not meer Bread. And he gives elsewhere a very formal account in what sense he thought it Christ's Body and Blood which he also insinuates in his Fourth Catechism for in his first Mystical Catechism when he exhorts his young Christians to avoid