Selected quad for the lemma: authority_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	act_n	king_n	zion_n	14	3	9.0865	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92774	The diatribē proved to be paradiatribē. Or, A vindication of the judgement of the reformed churches, and Protestant divines, from misrepresentations concerning ordination, and laying on of hands. Together with a brief answer to the pretences of Edmond Chillenden, for the lawfulnesse of preaching without ordination. / By Lazarus Seaman.	Seaman, Lazarus, d. 1675.; Simpson, Sidrach, 1600?-1655.	1647 (1647)	Wing S2174; Thomason E413_9; ESTC R203508	93,768	122

4 praec You in all your Exercitation confound those things and whereas your Position as you state it and explain it in the beginning runs upon this latter sence those Authors which you cite speak of the former only So as if your sense and the Reformed Churches be cleerly held forth you and they will be found opposites Nothing to be done by Ministers or Elders at any time or in any state of the Church or in any case which may befall a Minister in his calling is essentiall thereunto That 's your sense Unto the ordinary mediate calling of a Minister in the regular state and condition of the Church it is necessary or essentiall that those who are already Ministers do try examine approve and actually set apart those who are to succeed them in the same kind of Calling and this uses to be by prayer fasting and imposition of hands This latter I believe will appear to be the judgement of the Reformed Churches and their Ministers at least wise for any thing that you have yet produced unto the contrary which what it is comes now to be considered 1. Arg. Treat p. 5. The word To ordain Tit. 1. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 even when it is used concerning Officers signifies to fixe settle establish one who was in office before as appears by Psal 2. 6. where the Septuagint use the same word Paul doth to Titus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ans In this paragraph you seem to imagine this argument If Ordination be essentiall to the calling of a Minister then Titus 1. 5. compared with Act. 14. 23. must prove it to be so because in those places we read of some who were made Ministers by Ordination only and have little else to guide us in things of this kind but examples Hereupon you set your self by way of undermining to make a shew that no such proposition can be gathered out of those Texts and instead of laying down your grounds directly for your own position you give us in an oblique insinuation that the contrary cannot be proved And though it might suffice to say that the places instanced in bear not the whole stresse of the affirmative against your thesis and if the whole of your implied assumption was granted yet the consequence remains unproved yea suppose all were true which is contained in your own expresse assertion that the word To ordain Tit. 1. 5. signifies to fixe settle c. It follows not therefore Ordination is not essentiall because though it have such a signification in some places in Titus it may have another Yet I shall answer more particularly 1. Here is no proof that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Titus 1. 5. must have the same sense and signification with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Psal 2. 6. 2. The Hebrew of the Psalm should rather be consulted with then the Septuagint a corrupt translation Especially because it renders that passively contrary to all other Greek * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Aq. 5 Ed. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sym. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sexta ed. Translators as spoken by David or Christ which should be active as spoken by God The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is I have annointed or powred out ordained authorised * The translation of the Seventy cannot be retained but force must be offered unto the Hebrew text in three places as Rivet and others upon the Psalm observe * Ainsw on the place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Que verba retineri non possunt quin vis flat Ebraico textus tribus in locis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●●sakti legatur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nisakti in Niphal pro 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 malki regem meum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 malko rex ejus pro 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kodeshi sanctū men̄ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kodsho Rivetus Musculus besides the same observation with Rivet observes further against the Greek translator Et adjecit quod in textu non est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. in eo Chaldaus Paraphrastes Ebraicam veritatem retinuit 3. As for the Hebrew word it may relate to Gods decree Yet have I see my King upon my holy hill of Sion that is my eternall decree and purpose Which is the more probable because of that which followes in the next verse I will declare the decree c. In Prov. 8. 23. where we have the phrase used passively * I was set up from everlasting from the beginning or ever the earth was it cannot be understood 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 otherwise then of Christs eternall generation or that decree of God whereby he was assigned to his Incarnation and Offices In neither way it will agree to your sense of of fixing setling or establishing one who was in office before 4. There is a vast difference between setling per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of might and per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of authority God might set a King in Sion especially as you understand it by force but Titus could set Elders from city to city no otherwise then by the peaceable exercise of spirituall power And therefore there 's the lesse likelihood that we should have recourse to the 2. Psalme to understand that phrase in Titus And if you will needs compare them some authoritative act must needs be understood in both places and all power of making Ministers did not belong unto those in Crete among themselves but unto Titus as one sent unto them to set others over them For in both places not simply fixing setling and establishing but such a fixing c. as is by vertue of power and authority so to do must needs be understood But you adde Now if you understand the Psalm of David in the type he was a King many years before he took in the hill and fort of Zion 2 Sam. 5. 5 6. Or if you understand it of the Apostles preaching up Christ as the Apostles do the Psalm Act. 4. 25. c. Christ received all power at his ascension and did but settle his Kingdome by their Preaching the Apostles were but witnesses of Christs glory and in being so did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Answ 1. It s well you put an if concerning the Psalm as to be understood of David in the type because it s noted that almost all the Orthodox Fathers doe understand all things in this Psalme simply and immediately of Patres Orthodoxi fero omnes de Christo simpliciter immediate accipiunt interpretantur quaecunquein hoc Psalmo d●c●ntur Rivetus in arg partitione Psal 1 Sam 16 13. 2 Sam. 2. 4. c. 5. 1. 3. 8. Christ 2. It may be questioned whether that act of Davids taking in the Hill of Zion be here directly pointed at because we reade of his annointing by Samuel at Bethlehem and at Hebron twice * but never of any annointing at the Hill or

Fort of Sion and therefore have no ground for the Hebrew phrase here used in the strict and proper acception of it 3. How the Apostles understand the Psalme and this passage of it appeares by those words Act. 4. 27. Against thy holy Child Jesus whom thou hast annointed * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chrys in Psal 3. both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were gathered together Here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Greek answers to Nasakti in the Hebrew and both together imply that God had mad Christ Jesus whom the Jewes crucified both Lord and Christ Acts 2. 36. 4. As for the Apostles that they may be said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to settle his Kingdome by their preaching we find no such phrase in Scripture you doe but dreame in ●sing of it and though its true they were witnesses of Christs glory yet it s also true they were more the● witnesses as you use the word in way of Diminution but to 〈◊〉 settle and establish Christ upon his Throne either by preaching witnessing or other way is no where ascribed unto them Thus you proceed And however the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be taken sometimes yet Titus 1. 5. it cannot be taken for making him an Elder who was none before For what is injoyned there is to be done by Titus onely or by Titus joyning with other Ministers For the text saith I have left thee to ordaine But neither did the Apostles much lesse might other Ministers make a Minister by a sole act of their own Answ How the word may be taken sometimes is not much materiall the ordina●● acception is chiefly to be looked at For that must take place in Titus unlesse some reason from the text it self or from the nature of the things there spoken of can be given to the contrary If all the places in the New Testament of this kind where it is used be enquired into it will be found to signifie either the making of him an officer who was none before or to give him a greater power then he had at first For instance Mat. 24. 45. Who is then a faithfull and wise servant whom his Lord hath made ruler 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over his houshold to give them meat in due season Luk. 12. 14. Man who made me 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Judge or divider over you Act. 7. 10. Pharaoh made him speaking of Joseph governour over Egypt and all his house 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For the second sense see Mat. 24. 47. Verily I say to you he shall make him ruler 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over all his goods Mat. 25. 21. I will make thee ruler 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over many things The like in Luk. 12. 42. 44. When Deacons were first to be constituted in the Church of Jerusalem the Apostle speaks thus unto the multitude Look you out among you seven men of honest report full of the Holy Ghost and wisdome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whom we may appoint over this busines * Act. 6. 3. To produce like places out of the Septuagint is as needlesse as it would be endlesse or out of the first and most ancient of the Greek * Vide Concil Nicenum can 4 Ancyranum can 10. 18. Antiochenum can 23. Laodicenum c. 11. 16. Sardicense can 4. 6. Councels One place out of Clemens his Epistle to the Corinthians which is of great repute among the learned may give some light unto the text in hand speaking of the Apostles and of their preaching in countries and cities he saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they made the first fruits of them that believe Bishops and Deacons not by popular election but by vertue of the spirit of discerning 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Clemens in epist ad Corinth p. 54 55. What they did themselves in this kind they did also appoint to be done by Evangelists as they saw occasion But you say however the word may be taken sometime yet Titus 1. 5. it cannot be taken for making him an Elder who was none before And your reason is because what is enjoyned there is to be done by Titus only or by Titus joyning with other Ministers Ans Be it granted that Titus only was to ordain what need then that other Ministers should joyne with him And if other Ministers were to joyne yet that cannot be proved from the signification of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there used Something was peculiarly enjoyned him for wherefore else receives he a commission and commandement from Saint Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as I have appointed thee That which followes that the Apostles much lesse other Ministers might not make a Minister by a sole act of their owne is a meere petitio principii Your as for example is no proofe Was Titus a Minister to Crete when he came thither or was he not if he was shew us whose act concurred with Saint Paul's and whose authority he took in to settle him there as a Minister to them Thus you go on as for example Acts 14. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. the word translated they ordained in the plurall number may be referred to the people as well as to Paul and Barnabas Answ The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the one place doth no more referre to the people then the other word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 When the people are spoken of it refers to them but Paul and Barnabas only are here distinguished from the people To that which followes For it is such a word as properly belongs to the people as well as their Rulers when they gave their votes and never to the Rulers without the people Answ The truth is it belongs properly either to Rulers or people to gether or a part as there is occasion Your never to the Rulers without the People is too confident an assertion if so be de facto no instance could be given to the contrary yet de jure no reason is produced why it might not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Suidas hath it signifies both Plebiscitum a Law made by the people and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is the ordinary word used in Demosthenes and in the Attick laws for Senatus consultum a Law made by the Senate As when the people make a Law they are said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so may the Rulers in like manner in those Lawes which are made by themselves alone What think you of this passage in Julius Pollux 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Julius Pollux l. 8. c. 9. § 1. The Thesmothetae doe privarely prescribe when judgement is to be given and promulge publique accusations and suffrages to the people Whose suffrages were these if not the Rulers And of that in Demosth. Phil. 1. cited by Hen. Steph. whom you quote so often 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and of making an Officer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉

〈◊〉 〈◊〉 intelligens ut opinor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prosiste sed ita sumpto ut quum dicitur sistere cursum Possit tamen aliquis magis etiam proprio verbo utens illud 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eustathii reddere Appelle * In the latter of those pages which you cite out of him viz. p. 1767. he sayes that Cicero's phrase constituere regem is in Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And in the former of them viz. p. 1732. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est quod Cicero constituere regem dicir But what of this till we know what Cicero means by his constituere Is there therefore no difference between the peoples appointing two and Gods choosing one or did the Multitude and the Apostles both or either constitute as Kings use to be constituted in the same sense Then why should the foregoing act of the people be counted essentiall in the Calling of Matthias and the Deacons rather then the latter act of God alone or the Twelve It might suffice you to say the act of t●e multitude in setting seven men before the Apostles was essentiall though the act of the Apostles in setting the same seven over the multitude was not But must you needs make the act of God in choosing one of two to be a meer accident Take heed To make the praeposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Diminut●ve is against all use and reason That 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to place one and to place one with honour and is an authoritative word and as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be granted in some texts though not in these but that will not content you unlesse the compound signifie lesse then the simple In good earnest let us know some reason why 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may not signifie pr●fic●re as H. Stephan saith it doth in those texts of Matthew and Luke heretofore insisted on and consequently to place one in honour by way of authority and as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Why is the act of the people under authority a substance and the act of those who are over them in the Lord a shadow I feare it is not so much for the Truths sake or for the Peoples good as for some advantage that you make so light account of the Apostles and God himself I would willingly allow the people all right but I dare not say that alone which they do is essentiall authoritative and establishing but nothing else If 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be an authoritative word in that phrase We establish the law where the Apostle speaks but of a doctrinall establishment let us know why when he speaks of politicall acts and applies the compound to them that should not also be as authoritative or at least authorittaive When you say the Septuagint whom Luke is observed to follow use 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as 1 Chron. 9. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 These did David and Solomon appoint in their set office I hope by this time you see the mistake The words are whom David and Samuel the Seer did appoint in their set office And if you mean that the peoples act in Act. 1. 23. and Act. 6. 6. was like unto that of David and Samuel about the porters you are mistaken David and Samuel might be said to set appoint or ordain either as the one was a King and the other a Judge or as they were both Prophets but neither of these acceptions belong unto the people Yet there is something in the close wherin perhaps you may speed better then you have done hitherto But especially consider that electing one is taking up an office for him Act. 1. 20. 22. and he that is elected is said to be numbred amongst officers Act. 1. 26. The lot fell upon Matthias and he was numbred amongst the Apostles Numbred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 communibus suffragiis seu calculis ad scriptus est by common consent or votes he was put into the number or inrolled amongst the Apostles Ans That electing one is taking up an office for him I understand not But that by Gods election Matthias was made an Apostle as all the rest by Christ is certain That there were two presented by the people at first and afterward Apostolos solus Deus eligit Ecclesia accipit Apostoli à Christo solo Ecclesiae capite ac non ab hom●nibus ut Paulus ad Galat. 1. 11. eliguutur Jun. ecclesiast lib 3. cap. 1. one accepted of by common consent in way of obedience to Gods determination I verily believe There was no other suffrage nor second lot though the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sound that way for to refer the choice by lot to God and after to vote whether Gods decision should stand were to tempt God but an acquiescence on all parts in his as the last resolve Calvin speaking to this point A quibus eligendi sunt Ministri sayes Hujus rei certa regula ex Apostolorum institutione peti non potest quae nonnihil habuit à communi reliquorum vocatione dissimile * Calv. inst l. 4. c. 3. §. 13. And that the 120. acted here as a generall Church visible not as a single Congregation is the rather to be believed because he that was chosen was to be an Apostle and this will make little for the right of Congregations to have all power in electing of their Officers Yet this example may be of this use to teach us 1. That the Churches consent or assent is in some cases requisite unto the call of a Minister 2. That a Ministers call is not to be left wholly to the Peoples election for then what need either of a Lot as here or of Ordination as in the case of Deacons And for all that yet appeares in the discussion of this argument Ordination may be estentiall to the calling of a Minister Your fifth Argument pag. 11. 5. Vpon whomsoever Ele●tion falleth Ordination doth necessarily and therefore the Call to the Ministery lies principally in Election as he that i● chosen to be a King must be crowned therefore his Election gives him the right to rule That Ordination necessarily follows Election appears Act. 6. 3. where the Apostle bids them look out i. e. chuse as is explained ver 5. and he would appoint Ans This Argument falls short in the Conclusion That therefore Ordination is not essentiall And if Ordination do necessarily fall upon whomsoever Election falleth then is Ordination at least necessary after Election If it be necessary it may not be omitted when it may be had all that neglect or despise it are without excuse especially when the Magistrate injoyns it agreeably unto the Word And if it should alwayes follow upon Election yet you cannot thence conclude that the Call to the Ministery lies principally in Election Marriage is begun by the motion of the man to the woman that he may have her for his

him onely who is elected and that because he is elected Ans Upon what ground you intitle that book so often cited to the Brethren and sometime to the Church of Scotland generally I know not unlesse it be to de●●de the Reader or upbraid the Brethren and the Church Some of them have been long in England as Commissioners from that Church and have not been silent where they had occasion to debate Besides their Works speak for them as the great paines of Reverend Mr. Rutherford at large to the point in hand * Due right of Presb. from p. 178. to 241. Before their arrivall here there was a learned Tract of Patrick Forbes of Corse to cleare the Call of Ministers in the Reformed Churches and particularly in Scotland against Objections of the Papists As to these particular passages here cited you wrong both the Author the Reader and the Truth it self by leaving out all those expressions whereby Ministers and Elders are interessed in Election as distinguished from Ordination and by misapplying those words which you have expressed But whiles saith he we plead for the Election of People we adde 1. Let the Clergy of the adjacent bounds in their Presbyteriall assembly try and judge who are fit for the Ministery 2. Even when it comes to Election yet Populus non solus judicat sed praeeunte moderante actionem Presbyterio the words of Junius Let the Elders of the Congregation together with some of the Clergy concurring with them moderate the action and go before the body of the People Would to God that these things were observed by all I adde Amen for then an act of Ministers and Elders in judging of the Calling of a particular person would alwayes be found in praxi and without it all choice by People alone would be counted null and invalid Whereas you say he speaks of Ordination in generall and yet instances it as to a particular Flock the truth is he speaks there only of Ordination to a particular flock and not of Ordination in generall untill he come to the next page It followeth saith he to speak of Ordination pag. 168. wherein with Calvin Junius Gersom Bucer and other learned men we distinguish between the act of it and the rite of it The act of Ordination standoth in the mission or deputation of a man to an Ecclesiasticall function with power and authority to perform the same Now that Ordination at thus described is essentiall to a Calling he himself implies by these words For how shall they preach except they be sent speaking of such a sending as he had before stated That Ministers should not be obtruded invito populo against the peoples will is the sum of all which he pleads for and will not be gainsaid where the people are Saints and Orthodox but it will not thence follow that People have a power to make one a Minister excluso or invito Presbyterio without or against or otherwise then by a Presbyterie Suppose a man had by Election jus ad rem power to be a Pastor yet he is not therefore or thereby a Pastor actually and if Ordination be that which gives jus in re no man is to act as a Pastor till he be ordained And if Election do only design a man to be made a Minister and Ordination be that act whereby he is so made I hope it will be plain that as the introducing of the form is essentiall in creating rather then preparing the matter or masse which i● to receive it so Ordination will be found to be essentiall rather then Election though Election may precede in time and Ordination follow after 6. A Minister may want and be without Ordination in The sixth Argument some cases therefore it is not essentiall to his Calling Thus Gregor Thaumaturgus was and others may be in times of persecution Ans Here you fight against your self if one word be changed A Minister may want and be without Election in some cases therefore it is not essentiall to his Calling This is commonly judged to be the case of our first Reformers and may be the case of others in times of extreme persecution You care not to wound your self so as you may strike others There must be a voice from heaven i. e. a true Ministery to bring men out of Babylon * Non pot●i● Ecclesia restitui nisi restituto Ministerio de formâ ecclesiae visibilis loquor quia non alia ratione qu●m praedicatione Evangelii vel instaurari ecclesta vel instaurata potest conservari Sadeel de legit vocatione Min. p. 7. Verum h●c summo studic attendi debet quòd vocationis Ministrorum verbi divini necessitas huc usque adstructa non ad quod vis tempus etiam corruptae ecclesiae atque turbatae salsa doctrin● atque immani persecutione Nam ubi ecclesia aut salsa doctrinâ turbata aut persecutione dissipata est it aut desint qui sinceros verbi divini M●nistros 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vocate possint ●elint hac certè rerum necessitate extrema concedit Deus ut quivis qui volunlotis divine gnari sunt verbum Dei praedicent Sacramenta administrent collapsam veritatem restaurent quaevi● munia sacra citra ordinariam vocationem obeant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 222. Rev. 18. 4. but who shall either ordain or elect when Clergy and Laity I use the words only for distinction sake are equally corrupted At such a time where-ever God providentially sets up a standard his people may flock unto it and if they find a burning and a shining light it sufficeth that they know it is not of men but from heaven and that they ought to walk in the light of it But you adde This argument Voetius presseth larger and sheweth even by confession of Papists that one Elected or chosen may without Ordination do all the Offices of a Minister as Excommunicate Absolve and concludes it is no more to the essence of a Minister then bowing of the knee externally is essentiall to ptayer to God or the leading of the Bride and pomp of a wedding day is to Mariage Desper causa Papat 266 267. Ans 1. Voetius speaks not of Ordination there as an act of Ministers and Elders distinct from the rite of laying on hands 2. The Papists distinguish between the power of Order and Jurisdiction though they grant Election gives jurisdiction yet it is but in some cases and those things which belong to Order can be done by none but by Ordained persons according to their principles Neither 3. doth Voetius produce any such confession of the Papists as you here assert he doth that one elected or chosen may without Ordination do all the offices of a Minister And the instances which you give of Excommunication and Absolution both of which belong to Jurisdiction shew plainly of what kind of actions the Papists are to be understood and such are all those cases which you

manifeste constat cum ex Scripturae mandatis tum exemplis Tit. 1. 5. 1 Tim. 4 14. 2 Tim. 22. Act. 14. 23. Eos qui jam sunt i● M●n●sterio profitentur sacram doctrinam adhibendos esse quando per medi●tam vo●ationem al cui comm●ndandum est ministerium Turbulenti sedui si Anabaptistae minime rectè faciunt qui vocabulo Ecclesiae intell gunt tantum promiscuam multitudinem excluso Ministerio pio Magistratu Chemnit par 8. L. C. de Ecclesia pag 134. what you found in Chemnitius in favour of Ordination as an act of Ministers and Elders when you were upon that Head Are not those his words which you have here in the margin 2. Touching the matter it self which you here refer unto you mis-relate him He speaks not of laying on of hands in the ordinary and regular Call of a Minister for therein he supposes Imposition of hands should be used but of a certain case Nam interdum hujusmodi casus incidunt ut quis habeat vocationem impediatur quo minus se conferat ad Nobiliorem Ecclesiam in quâ accipiat ritum Ordinationis Questio ergo est An illius ministerium sit evacuatum His answer is Aliqui id affirmant aliqui negant Some grant it some deny it 3. It suffices me that he grants Imposition of hands to be necessary in any respect agreeable to the Word For they who agree in that will agree in a warrantable use of this rite neither the peace nor the communion of the Church will be disturbed though it be not held to be essentiall 4. Take his own words fully Sed tamen propte● eos qui currunt non missi sunt vocatio debet habere publicum Ecclesiae testimonium Et ritus Ordinationis nihil aliud est quàm talis publica testificatio quâ vocatio illa in conspectu Dei ipsius nomine declaratur esse legitima divina and consider whether th●s follow not A Ministers call is then declared lawfull and divine and so to be reputed when he is Ordained by laying on of hands And if there be no other way of such Declaration to be f●und in Scripture This of Imposition of hands will be essentiall to it 5. Whereas you single out those words only Ordinatio non facit vocationem Ordination makes not his Calling but declares it The entire sentence is this Licet ergo Ordinatio non facit vocationem si tamen quis legitimè est vocatus ille ritus est declaratio confirmatio vocationem illam quae praecessit esse legitimam Here are two things which you leave out 1. That Ordination is a confirmation of that Call as well as a declaration 2. It is not barely a delaration of the Call but of the Lawfulnesse so as the lawfulnesse of the Call may justly be questioned which hath not been declared by Ordination 6. This rite is not reteined chiefly for the Prayers sake as you translate his words but rather for the benefit of such prayers as use to be made at Ordination Et illas preces tali ritu peractas non esse inanes testatur Moses Deut. 34. 9. 1 Tim. 4. 14. 2 Tim 1. 6. 7. As I grant those are his words Fatendum sanè c. so you cannot deny that these which follow are his also Habet tamen ille sua fundamenta in verbo Dei This rite hath its foundations in hhe Word of God 8. It 's much that you have alledged out of Chemnitius but is there nothing else which is of concernment for the Reader to know touching this Rite You know there is more pag. 138. where he gives an account to what end and use Imposition of hands is reteined in the Reformed Churches As 1. Illo publico ritu testamur hoc opus licèt sit mediatum esse tamen verè divinum By this publike rite we testifie that this work although it be mediate yet it is truly Divine for it is not ours but Gods work which we performe who calls and Ordains that person by us 2. Hac impositione manuum sistitur Ecclesiae ut haec quoque admoneatur Deum per hanc personam ejus ministerium velle ipsos docere exhortari consolari Sacramenta administrare peccata vel absolvere vel ligare By this impo●ition of hands the Minister is presented to the Church that they also may be admonished that God by him and his ministery will teach exhort and co●fort them administer the Sacraments unto them and loose or bind their sins But the people must hear nothing of this kind from Protestant Divines lest they soon perceive that those Ministers who make them believe that power of Ordination belongs unto the people do deceive and that there is something belonging to the Call of a Minister which from the nature of the thing it self cannot belong to the People or to any of their deputing to this act but to such as are already Ministers by them to be performed towards the people in the name of God and Christ alone Authoritas coram Ecclesia tribuitur ei cuimanus sunt impositae Authority is conferred on him publikely before the Church on whom hands are laid Thus Chemnitius But this was not for your turne neither doth it serve ad captandum populum to heare of authority conferred on Ministers especially by Imposition of hands Thus far of Chemnitius To that of Danaeus in 1 Tim. 5. 22. Laying on of hands is not necessary so there be but Prayer made to confirme the Party elected and the whole Church joyn in prayer with him that the Spirit of God would strengthen him And he gives amongst other reasons as that Prayer is all this for one Qui hanc ceremoniam praecise urgent incidunt in vanas quaestiones ineptas The urging of it breeds vain and foolish questions about Ministers Callings I answer 1. I question whether ever you consulted with the Author himself and did not rather transcribe a little out of that which you found cited in Tarnovius If you did it further appeares how partiall and unfaithfull you are in setting down the Judgement of Protestant Divines For he makes an act of the Presbyters not only to be necessary but necessary in the first place before the assent of the people be asked in calling of a Minister and gives five strong reasons for it to which I refer the studious Reader in the Book it self pag. 352 253 254. 2. Whereas you say Laying on of hands is not necessary Danaeus his own words pag. 360 are Non usque adeo certè necessaria est And so they are also in Tarnovius so as you cannot pretend that he deceived you in this By that manner of expression he grants some necessity though not absolute and does not simply say as 〈◊〉 Laying on of hands is not necessary 3. That reason that Prayer is all is obtruded on him if I mistake not and not to be found in any of his expressions 4.