matter and clean out in this first Notion Second Notion And for succession of truth truth of Ordinances you must understand It comes now by the promise of God and faith of his people whom he as aforesaid hath taken out of the world to the fellowship of the Gospel Answ Setting aside succession and in stead thereof putting in continuation What can be more right then this though not in J. S. his sense The truth of Ordinances continues by vertue of Gods promise made to his people they continuing to beleeve in him and not forgetting his name though many times greatly failing against him as of old yet the truth of Ordinances continue namely the Church and Baptisme now as the Church and Circumcision did of old and this by the promise of God J. S. hath no such sense as this but some inward familisticall sense of inward faith and Gods promise to such secret beleevers which he is never able to make out any such thing that the truth of Ordinances depends upon them in regard of continuation by vertee of the promise of God to them in such a secret way Third Notion To whom the Ordinances of Christ stand only by succession of faith What faith outward or inward and not of persons What faith severed from persons Answ I would fain know what any rationall man can make of this either in it self or as it hath relation to what is before declared Fourth Notion For the same power the Apostles had in former time for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures have in the hand of Christ as the head of the Church which make up but one body 1 Cor. 12. 12. Answ such power for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures had of old when the Apostles lived Some other things J. S. aimeth at but the truth prevaileth and the words he here useth will nothing avail namely of the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the Church It s worth observing how the Church is here couched just after the manner of the Babylonians that pretend their Church is inspired with the Holy Ghost and cannot erre for Christ the head is in Heaven and hath left his Word for direction in godlinesse for his Church to take heed unto Now the holy Apostles had authority to act Ordinances according to Christs command they were to preach pray break bread and baptize the Scriptures were not sent neither act they any thing as before So as in J. S. his sense it is utterly untrue that the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the body have the same power to act Ordinances as the Apostles had Notion fift and last So as what the Apostles and Church together might do in acting Ordinances you must understand the same may the head and body together with the Scriptures do now Reader observe how J. S. coucheth subtilly his unbaptized Church betwixt Christ and the Scriptures so as Christ being in heaven and the Scriptures only directive the whole matter for action will fall into the hands of the Church A contrivance as fine as the Papist found out when they were sore put to it by John Hus and the Bohemians and not able to defend themselves and their courses against the truth they invented and abetted this That holy Church could not erre Secondly observe how I. S. quitteth two of these three namely the head and body and concludeth laying all the stresse upon the Scriptures and so in effect saith nothing at all the Scriptures being only directive for saith he the Scriptures have the same whereas he should have said the head and body with the Scriptures have it Thirdly observe what a preposterous conjunction I. S. maketh of three in the matter of fact one of which to wit Christ the head is in Heaven who though he hath fulnesse of power acts not here below but in a providenciall and ministeriall way and the like The Church the second Christs wife is in all things to be obedient to Christ her husband his will and pleasure contained in the Scripture the Scriptures they act not but only direct where is I. S. now just where he was at the first and no further Fourthly this is utterly untrue which he concludeth that what the Church and the Apostles the Ministers of the Churches might do that the Scriptures he quitteth the head and body as before may do Now what might not the Church and the Apostles do in ordinances and administration orderly according to God what can the Scriptures act truly nothing at all their authority is only directive I suppose any one may see how far out I. S. is in these conceits In the close he is up again with revelation which happily if he did study and cleave unto would stand him in more stead then the Scriptures that are so helplesse to him in his cause CHAP. IV. Containing a defence of the opinion of them that hold no right or orderly Ministeriall Church without or before Baptisme I. S. Having ended his former matter against the Churches continuance and likewise the continuance of Baptisme under the popish defection proceeds saying And so we come to such as will have no Church before Baptisme and so make Baptisme the form of the Church Answ Who these such are that he intendeth I cannot tell they are either some of his own way or some other some of his own way do indeed so hold that Baptisme constitutes or is the form of the Church Did I think he intended them I should leave them to try it out and should not intermeddle with the strife I shall only as the matter relates to them shew my thoughts briefly namely that they will be too hard for J. S. in the tenent he himself being of their belief but that he is not true to his owne principle otherwise how should he without Schisme and being a Schismatick leave the reformed and separated Churches and set up another of his own as he hath done only he accounteth them no Churches of Christ and what is the reason he doth so nothing but his Baptisme is wanting so as that must be the form that gives being for otherwise They are companies of Saints professing faith in the righteousnesse of Christ and living accordingly that is in holynesse of life This he describeth to be the matter and the form he declareth to be their being united and knit together in one fellowship or orderly body and that is the Covenant of grace by which God becomes not visibly as he unawars saith but in an outward way of relation a God unto them and they become visibly his people Now what is there to hinder J. S. from being a Schismatick by his own ground for surely nothing hinders those Churches which he forsaketh and disclaimeth as no Churches of Christ by all or any thing that in his description of the matter or form of the Church by him set down can be found and let him take in his five Reasons to help him if he
very dark and smoakie this hee will doe by shewing the manner of the aforesaid Constitution in the causes of it How will he doe it in pag. 40. by saying over again what he had said again and again before namely that the Scriptures remaining in the place of the Apostles for us to have recourse unto and serve as the mouth of Christ Alas this is but a poore clearing for this is onely in a directive way as before I noted And what then The Scriptures being so truly nothing at all Yes saith he as the Apostles did before the Scriptures were written To which I say there were Scriptures before the Apostles to which the Apostles had an eye and regard and directed others to doe the like The holy Apostles they acted Ordinances of Religion preaching breaking bread and baptizing The Scripture acts nothing neither can they surely Act. 2. 42. this is a poore clearing we will minde the Scriptures hee here quoteth Matth. 28. 20. 2 Pet. 19. 20 21. Rom. 10. 6 7 8. In answer I will not tire my selfe and the Reader certainly no man can imagine any thing more then direction from that full and perfect rule of the Scriptures as gatherable from those places of Scripture which as before I said none deny let him but call to mind what he said of an orderly way which God requireth and how that is as he conceiveth by the Church and then let him tell mee if hee can to what purpose these Scriptures are or that which followeth that as the Lords people conferred with the Prophets and Apostles about their great affaires so have the Lords people now Moses and the Prophets Christ and his Apostles in their writings as Luk. 16. 29. And what then truly nothing it is but for direction as before nor yet that which further followeth in this clearing matter of the constituting causes which are saith he with the spirit of life in them as effectuall as their personall presence if not more Answ Stay a while the matter is sure otherwise for this effectuallnesse if it were granted is but directive But it is not wholly granted for that the Apostles were men inspired and sent of God to declare his will they were a saving meanes of good to men and God in his good pleasure as a double mercy gave his Word and sent his Apostles and Prophets sure I take it it must needs follow that if the Scriptures were as effectuall without the Apostles and rather more then with them then God gave the Apostles in vaine and the Churches were great losers by their personall presence but the truth is otherwise as is most manifest The Scripture with the Spirit of life in them act nothing but onely direct and furnish men how to act according to the will of God in an orderly way according to what hee holdeth For proofe of what before he affirmed of the effectualnesse of the Scripture he quoteth Joh. 6. 62. 2 Pet. 1. 18 19. Revel 11. 3 5 11. Answ That in John speaketh of Christ ascending where he was before how this should prove any thing is beyond my thoughts I will say nothing but leave the Reader to judge of it That place of Peter is of the sure direction of the Word in dark and our doing well to take heed to it That in the Revelation is of the two witnesses a thing too mysterious to be a proofe in this case I suppose J. S. will not hold himselfe to be one of those witnesses nor he with others of his way to be both those witnesses there spoken of I will say no more but leave the Reader to judge whether these Scriptures doe prove that the holy Scriptures with the Spirit of life in them as he is pleased to say are in stead of the Apostles personally sent of God with power to act ordinances or whether they in the case of the Ordinances dispensing in an orderly way are as much or more effectuall then the Apostles personally that were sent of Christ for that end who did not send the Scriptures as in the case of the Eunuch but Philip and in the case of Cornelius Peter as in those and the like instances may be seen He proceedeth and in full concluding of this matter saith and thus all succession what phrase have we here from the beginning came to Christ Of what speakes hee now of Ordinances I had thought all Ordinances had ever proceeded from him he being ever the Lord of the Church and sure he meaneth the Ordinances namely those ordained of old under Abraham and Moses and the Prophets these lasted continued to the coming of Christ into the world the substance indeed of those shadows so his sense may be good From Christ he saith to the Apostles from the Apostles to the Scriptures This is pure non-sense if I mistake not and beside I aske him where is that orderly way he told us of and how is the case now according to 1 Cor. 3. by him alleadged for the Authority of an unbaptized Church Doth he not by this discent seclude them from all rather then inright them to any such authorite happily he will say Oh from the Scriptures to us very good But first how from Christ to the Apostles Did Christ our Lord preferre the Apostles before his beloved Spouse for whom he gave himselfe I alwayes took the Apostles as the servants of the Church for Christs sake Secondly did the Ordinances 2 Cor. 4. 5. proceed from Christ to the persons of the Apostles or to their office as Apostles So as when they in regard either of person or office left the world it descended to the Scripture certainly the right and interest of the Scriptures was the same before the death and cessation of the Apostles as after and the Scriptures gained no legacie by such friends unlesse a sealing to the truth and full authority of their direction so from the Scriptures to us a wonderfull matter a very fair Ring from the Scriptures to the Scriptures and so to us just nothing but a shew of words without matter Further he saith That all succession is now spirituall So it seemeth he holdeth it was carnall before when it was from Abraham to Moses from Moses to Christ and the Apostles and so to the Scriptures and now it is from the Scriptures to us it is spirituall a rare conceit He saith it is now according to faith whether he mean faith of miracles or what else is hard to say but it mattereth not much for he is beside the Scriptures and walking in some other field It followeth not saith he the personall succession of any but onely the Word of God Answ Sure J. S. speaketh in a strange tongue he is never able to make out his sense that succession follows the Word the Word being immoveable and that which abideth for ever and hath no place for succession though he thus speaketh he know not what And the word of God he saith
by matters fundamentall and how the receipt of the Ordinance can be a matter fundamentall when the person may not onely be matter but part of a Church without it as he holdeth Fourthly I would know how the word of man stands in the place of the Word of God and what he meaneth by the bare word of man in this matter of fact Lastly I would know what he meaneth by truly receiving this holy Ordinance and whither he hold there be a false receiving this Ordinance and yet the Ordinance holy and true to them that receive it This Reason as it is set down I take to be something like a spell The summe of it in other words I take to be this Infants are not to be baptized for that they cannot be assured when they come to yeers that they were baptized but by the witnesse of man and if that fail then there is no way of satisfying of themselves that they were at all baptized To which I answer first that I would not much strive with a person in such a case If that were the cause that the probablenesse of his not being at all Baptized were the cause that moved him to desire to be Baptized especially if it did appeare to them by whom he should seek to be Baptized that he had not been Baptized at all But surely this is far from the case in question wherein men get themselves baptized not that they thinke they were not baptized at all but that they judge it was not the Baptisme of Christ because of the corruptions in the subject instrument or the manner of their being baptized which made the matter null and void Secondly I would have it minded how a person circumcised in youth could be assured when he came to yeers especially if his Circumcision were gathered and grown so as he could not see the print in the flesh For this Reason if it hath any force in it it hath the same against Circumcision in Infancy as against Baptisme for such so circumcised could be no otherwise assured then such a way as will come within the compasse of humane testimony If it be said They might satisfie themselves by the sight of the print of the flesh I answer that might be gathered and grown so as not to be seen And again if it were not that fight is not the Word of God and beside they might be mistaken or be circumcised unlawfully Thirdly that others were circumcised of old or are baptized now especially those to be joyned with in publike Ordinances and speciall communion Now how could the Israelites know of old or how can it be known now in particular how will I. S. to put the case to himselfe how will he I say know and be assured that such and such as he holdeth communion withall are baptized but by humane testimony instead of the Word of God as he saith he must take their own word in their own case whether it be not humane I leave it to him to judge And I demand further whether upon this his ground any can in faith joyn in fellowship and speciall communion or could of old with any they did not see or have not seen circumcised of old Ephes 44. 9. or Baptized now in this dispensation of the Gospell for suppose they were Baptized in Holland or in some part of this Kingdom nay in this City and I not see it done where am I then by his ground I must beleeve the bare word of man in stead of the Word of God in a matter alike fundamentall according to his account Fourthly in matter of fact I judge Faith of such a nature as we have now in hand is to goe upon humane testimony if I. S. will have it so called and that such testimony is of divine authority and every way satisfactory to be rested in for at the mouth of two or three witnesses every truth stands ratified In matter of fact I Matth. 18. 16. make it appear thus That such a people are Christs Church a Church being a fundamentall thing mens witnesses must carry it and give satisfaction especially in regard of the first beginning of a Church which some much stand upon Again that such a person is the lawfull Minister of Christ and his Church lawfully chosen and ordained what way is there of satisfaction but the word of man to any but onely to those that were at the acting of it Excommunication is an ordinance alike fundamentall with Baptisme it is to be done in faith the practike part of it is to be built upon the testimony of men at the mouth of two or three witnesses so as here expresly the word the bare word of man carrieth the same So as I conclude as this reason is a foolish fancy so it premiseth wholly upon untruth and raiseth unprofitable doubts and hath the same force against other Ordinances of Christ as it hath against Baptisme of Infants that it can by no means reach so high as to hinder Infants Baptisme all which I leave to the judgement of the Reader Reason 7 To baptize Infants makes the Ordinance of God a lying signe because none of those things can be expected in an Infant which the said Ordinance holds forth or signifieth in the administration of it which is the parties regeneration and spirituall new birth a dying and buriall with Christ in respect of sin and rising with him in a new life to God and a confirmation of faith in the death and resurection of Christ and free remission of sins by the same as Rom. 6. 3 4. none of all which can be expected in an Infant Answ This is a lying accusation of a malignant spirit against a holy practise of an Ordinance of Gods own appointment for might not any one as truly have said thus of Circumcision of Infants of old aswell as of the Baptisme of Infants now for what could be expected of an Infant then that cannot be now Did not Circumcision call for and lead unto then as much as Baptisme doth now did not Circumcision call for Circumcision of heart Circumcision Rom. 2. 29. being as the Apostle speaketh of the heart not of the letter the praise whereof is of God not of men did it not also call for regeneration and newnesse of life were not the Infants of it spirituall above the reach of the creature especially children yet it was then no lying signe as I. S. in the case of Baptisme lyingly affirmeth Secondly I say our Lord was baptized and this Ordinance was no lying signe as it was acted on him yet those things were not in him nor could be which I. S. saith the Ordinance holdeth forth or signifieth namely Regeneration a spirituall new life dying to sin burying with Christ rising with him in newnesse of life confirmation of faith and free remission of sins by the same What will J. S. say now will he say it was a living signe or will he confesse his lying accusation to
orderly way for as I said before there is none that deny the Scriptures in a directive way to be the ground and foundation of all Ordinances J. S. might have spared his labour for it was to as much purpose as for a man to prove there is a Sun in the firmament which all grant In this it had been far better for him to have made full discovery how they that in such a case want it may come orderly by it in as much as God requireth this And surely if God require an orderly way J. S. and others of his way will yet remain in a great strait and will finde it a matter more easie to cast away an Ordinance as they have done their Baptisme for the disorder and corruption that did attend it then in an orderly way to obtain the same again for certainly the Scriptures according to what before is set forth direct to a precedent Church and Ministery of man ordained of God and sent as John was And if not a Christ a Moses or Elias or Prophet from heaven the blinde Jews could John 1. 25. see it to be unlawfull for any other How will he do now He is but where he was an orderly way according to God is necessary there being no gathered Church to be found remaining no not baptized persons to be found nor any Prophets sent from God according as his judgement is What will he do or what course will he prescribe He conceiveth this orderly way is onely in and hy the Church I had thought he would have rather said in the Scriptures for to me it seemeth he hath unsaid all he said before wherein is the power of Christ he saith to set on foot his Ordinances So as it seemeth now it is not in the Scriptures as before he indeavoured to make his Reader believe But in the Church of God so as we are not as he said before to go directly to the Scriptures but we are to go to the Church of God But now this is the case with J. S. and those of his way there is no Church remaining in the world to be found how then will he do to help now at a dead lift they will make a Church that they may make Ordinances anew and be the spouse of Christ whether he will or no I suppose greater arrogancy cannot be shewed in Babylon But let us see how they will do it thus saith he When God is pleased to take a people to himself and by the power of his truth to unite them to his Son and so in an orderly hody among themselves Answ Now this supposed orderly gathered Church pretended after the manner of the Church of Rome to be Gods consisteth of persons unbaptized Now I would hear minde J. S. of his first Argument against Infants Baptisme namely that which hath neither precept nor example in Scripture is unlawfull let him or any of his way shew an example of a unbaptized Church since Baptisme was on foot in the World or any command from God for persons unbaptized to congregate and assume for so he after speaketh to become a Church indeed it may be said presume for it is without all doubt great presumption and a doing that God never spake to any to do but the contrary namely to repaire to the Church before gathered and by him made partakers of his Ordinances in a right way there to be added and made partakers of the Ordinances with them J. S. saith further When it pleased God to take a people to himself c. Answ When God is pleased to take a people to himself in such a way there alwaies was new discoveries of his will new grants of favour there were new signes and miracles there were Prophets and men sent immediately to declare his good pleasure as appeareth first in the case of Abraham after in the example of Moses and that people and last of all in the case of Christ and the Gen 15. 17 18. Exod. 19. 16. Heb. 2. 4. Apostles when not the Jewes only but the Gentiles were drawn to God By signes and miracles and divers gifts he gave confirmation to his pleasure as of old he had done But alas here is no such thing attending this supposed gathering of such people to God for indeed the gathering is of another nature and answerable to Gods gathering of his people in some other cases more ordinary As namely his gathering of them out of captivity of old when they were in Babylon or his gathering them out of apostacy and defection under Jeroboam or the like figures of this spirituall captivity and apostacy of Babylon now But as then there were no new beginnings of Ordinances no new Circumcision nor any signes or miracles for confirmation of their returne and gathering to the Lord Even so the case being a like there is no new beginnings of Church and Baptisme which would require as heretofore such like confirmation And certainly if the return and gathering of Gods people to himself were any other then according to those gatherings from captivity and apostacy of old I say surely if there were such a new taking of people and raising of them as is pretended God would have manifested his pleasure as of old by signes and miracles or at least by persons sent from heaven for the businesse as John was J. S. further saith Such a people so gathered and constituted have right to all the priviledges ordained and appointed by God for their mutuall comfort and well-being Answ Just as Cornelius and his friends had or might have had in the like case without Peter whose Ministery they must make use of he being authorized of God to the worke and they directed of God to him and not bidden to do it themselves Now this he pretendeth to prove from certain Scriptures as Rom. 8. 17. 1 Cor. 21. 22 23. Answ For that in the Romans it is marvellous he should think that to be a proof I say first that was spoken of the Church of the Romans that were gathered by Christ and washed with his washing in an orderly way by such as were not only baptized but had authority to baptize others they were Gods Church indeed of whom glorious things are spoken But what is this to persons unbaptized pretending to be a Church and to be gathered by God when they cannot shew the least warrant for it Againe it speaketh of heirs now may heires because heires and so every heire of Christ act Ordinances of so high a nature because heires sure they as obedient children must serve God in an orderly way and not in such a confused course as that upon the pretence of heirship young as well as old yea women also might do it for They are all one in Christ Nay which is more though unbaptized and so the Eunuch or Cornelius and his friends needed Gal. 3. 28. not Philip or Peter but might have done it themselves I suppose this Scripture any one
a personall succession again where will their succession of truth lye All these being returned home to J. S. their master he will see or at leastwise any indifferent person will be able to see that Pope Jone will help nothing in the case to hinder the continuance of the Churches being nor yet of the being of Baptisme with which Pope Jone medled not nor was any way concerned this matter at the most is but a relique of the dram before I. S. further tells us that when he speakes of personall succession of truth as in reference to Church and Church Ordinances he looks upon this in the power and authority tbat beares the same Answ Now J. S. seemeth something to awaken out of his dreame and to speak sense what ever sense he have in it his personall succession of truth set aside when he speaketh of the Church and Ordinances their continuance he looketh upon this in the power and authority that beares the same Now surely the power and authority that beares the Church and Church Ordinance up is the power of him that beareth up all things by his mighty power Jesus Christ our Heb. 1. 3. Lord against the gates of hell that preserves his Church as hee did his Arke when Dagon fell in his owne Temple Is it not a wonderfull Matth. 16. thing that he should conceit that Antichrist should by any power of his support Christs Church and the Ordinances thereof that with all his might and force indeavoureth their destruction and ruine but in vaine for Christ is stronger that with his mighty power supports them But J. S. looking awry cannot see any other bearing up the Church and Ordinances then by Antichrist and the Pope that are trampling it down what they can fitting there as God for by no meanes will he be brought to distinguish and put difference betwixt Gods Temple and the Man of sinne sitting in it but like Nicodemus he will say How can it be Joh. 3. For saith he To hold a Church to be true in regard of being you must mind and not of purity and the Ordinances their administred the true Ordinances of God and to leave this and to set up a way of worship apart from it and to deny communion with it is in his darke understanding a meere Schisme and the overthrow of all Order in Religion Answ I am both glad and sorry Glad that J. S. is no Apostle so as we are not bound to beleeve his bare word unlesse we will Sorry I am that he hath so dark a judgement and understanding as in this he doth discover For first I say a Church may be true and the Ordinances true that is Gods and yet both corrupt so as they cannot be partaken with all without sin In such a case there is to be a with-drawing from them in regard of particular communion in as much as we are to keep our selves pure not doing evill for good ends Yea a Church in regard of membership may be left and that without the said Churches consent as plainly appeareth by the example of the Apostles and others that left the Church of Israel of old and that while it was a Church And God himselfe calleth his people out of Babylon Rev. 18. 4. though the Church and Ordinances have a being there in as much as there can be no remaining there but there will be a partaking in sinne So as leaving particular communion and personall relation of membership I conceive is very necessary and according to God after the manner of all the Reformed Churches that have come out of Babylon renounced communion with her in the things of God because of the evills attending of them lest they should be defiled As on the other side they have drawn nigh to God in the purity of his wayes and worship as those did that left Israel in the time of their Apostacie and came to the Lord and his pure worship in Judah But thus to doe namely to leave a Church and Ordinances greatly polluted and defiled and to worship God together purely apart from that corrupted estate with-holding fellowship is in his dark judgement a meer Schisme alas poor dark judgement such a Schisme as he hath oft made and those of his way are full of in their own sense The holy Apostles and beleeving Jewes were Schismaticks in his account and all the Reformed Churches and Christians that have forsaken Babylon and are come out of her are all Schismaticks in his dark judgement But no marvell he so accounteth of these latter seeing by his reckoning they are not baptized Christians Truly he and those of his way by light and cleare judgements will be discerned to be even such themselves for doing as they doe Now to that latter part of this charge That it is the overthrow of all order in Religion I aske him which way it appeareth so to be sure he cannot tell for if it be well minded it will be found to be a speciall meanes of the preserving of religion decayed and a repayring of it and of reducing it to the first purity and an utter putting away all rust and defilement and therefore the Apostle giveth in charge having forewarned of the great defection of Antichrist not to begin a new but to keep the old Ordinances according Thes 2. 15. to the purity they were delivered to us J. S. his course I suppose is guilty of the overthrow of all order in Religion not onely what is of God remaining and afoot in the world but even of that also which is held forth in the Word in erecting a new Church and dispensing new Ordinances without a new Commission which never any did before After this he tells us of his learning Christ which sure is very little in regard of order as his way and course doth shew So far faith he as I have learned Christ men are to stand in their places and use all means to reclaim and reform corrupt Churches he meaneth by the word of truth Very good But what if they will not reform and all means which we can use availeth not This being done saith he so as of necessity I must leave off communion with them So as it seemeth communion may be left with a Church that is Gods because of evill and obstinacie in the same Then in such a case he thinketh for he onely giveth us his thoughts without Scripture he must disclaim them and separate from them To which I say it is but upon the condition of their non-repentance which challengeth sometime of waiting but that such a Church he ought to disclaim and separate from he holdeth First I would know whether he may do this while it remaineth a Church of Christ If he say yea then I ask him What is become of that which in his dark judgement was a meer Schisme But if he say nay not till the Church ceases to be Truly that will be a very hard matter for him to
please So as it must be the want of his new Baptisme or nothing and then I leave it to him to judge whether that be not the form of the Church necessarily according to his ground that gives the being thereunto Secondly if by such he meanes those he was an opponent of in the former matter of the Churches continuation and likewise Baptisme under Popish defection I shall adde a little in the way of defence First granting that such hold indeed no Church to wit rightly constituted as a right or lawfull Ministeriall Church without or before the matter of this Church is baptized Secondly denying that in so holding they make Baptisme the form of the Church as he inferreth and so make Baptisme the form there is more goeth to the proof of a matter then so His five Reasons might well have been spared by which he would prove Baptisme not to be the form of the Church till he had made that to appear to be of necessity the right consequence which sure he is never able to do for there was no right Ministeriall Church of old without Circumcision yet Circumcision was not the form of that Church an uncircumcised person was not to be admitted a member much lesse an officer Circumcision was then an externall qualification of the matter as in like manner is Baptisme now In this matter we shall have recourse to the first beginning of the Church of the new Testament and of Baptisme John the Baptist the forerunner of Christ sent of God to prepare the way of his Son according to Commission baptized much people as did also afterward the Disciples of Christ our Lord to him repaired our Lord to be baptized that righteousnesse might be fulfilled It may be observed by the way that this was in the Church of the Jewes Of these thus baptized was the Church of the new Testament begun whether the initiation of it be referred to the time before the passion of our Lord as to himself and the twelve with whom he brake bread or whether it be referred to the time after his resurrection when he gathered the 120. together and blessed them as is most Acts 1. proper let him take his choice and refer to which he will it was begun of the aforesaid baptized matter which is certainly to the life of the matter in hand in discovering that the matter of the Church was fitted by Baptisme before it was laid together As was the Church at the first rise of it so was the proceed those 120. baptized those that joyned with them being not before baptized as it is written they were baptized and added to the Church This first Church scattered by persecution became the instrument of increase and the first matter of many Churches which Churches by their instruments baptized such as received the faith and joyned into the Lord and thus was the Church and Kingdome of Christ spread throughout the World as the holy history doth shew And let J. S. or any of his way shew that there was ever any unbaptized Church or Congregation of the new Testament or that ever any unbaptized person was received into fellowship or that ever any unbaptized person after Baptisme was a foot in the World baptised or was authorized for to do it And lastly let him tell me whether the order of the new Testament as in another case he asked be not as strict in this case of Baptisme as it was in Circumcision of old when no uncircumcised might have part in the Church or fellowship in the Ordinances much lesse act Ordinances Esek 44. in way of dispensing of them to others And let him tell me whether a precept or example be not as necessary in all those cases as in that of baptizing Infants And lastly whether his practice of raising and beginning the Church of unbaptized persons do agree with the primitive practice of our Lord and his Apostles that began the Church of baptized matter as before J. S. propoundeth a second Reason of his opponents thus The Scripture speaketh of no Church before Baptisme To which he answereth as he did to that of the Gates of Hell not prevailing against the Church He must distinguish he saith A meer shift to blind his Reader and avoid the truth there needs no distinction at all in the case He would not take it well if any should distinguish in case of Infants Baptisme But what is his distinction it is betwixt the truth of the doctrine of Baptisme and the administration of it just as he did in the fore-named case as much as if he had said He must distinguish betwixt the Scripture that teacheth Baptisme and Baptisme or washing according to the Scripture In this first sense Baptisme or the doctrine of Baptisme as much as if he had said the holy word of God is before the Church What this is to the purpose is beyond my judgement nor yet that which followeth no Church according to the order of Christs Testament without it or before it No Church without or before the Scripture how this is to the matter in hand and what clearing or rather darkning there is in this distinction I leave the Reader to judge But now for the second part of the distinction Namely the outward administration of Baptisme that ever followeth the Saints joyning in fellowship by mutuall faith and agreement in the Doctrine wherein consists the stating of the Church in her conjoyning in Covenant which ever goes before in the administration of Baptisme and gives power and authority for the same so saith he in the first sense the Church is not before Baptisme but in the last it is Answ The summe and scope of this whole matter amplified and enlarged is utterly false being referred to the purpose for which J. S. doth bring it namely to prove an unbaptized Church or the Scriptures speaking of such Alas this is farre from proving the matter no not in a seeming way In this case it may be truly said from the beginning it was not so The matter of the Church was fitted outwardly by Baptisme as is before declared And the Scriptures give no president of such Church officer or member at any time such a proceed being cleane besides the Scriptures 2. J. S. deceiveth if not himselfe yet others in what he setteth down in referring that to the initiation of a Church which is onely true of the proceed The Church stated and on foot in the world according to God of baptized persons baptizeth others in way of proceed in a orderly way of administration so it was at the beginning and to begin otherwise is not according to the pattern So as not taking notice of the difference between right beginning and orderly proceed he is clean out and beside the truth and his distinction will appeare to be vain and to no purpose unlesse to deceive for as he setteth down that Baptisme ever followeth in regard of the administration of it the Saints joyning in