in case of Non-satisfaction whereas all punishments should be commensurate unto the severall offences 11. And so ye seem to approve the opinion of the Stoicks who held all sins to be equall since ye inflict the same punishment upon them all 12. Not onely this Discipline cannot easily be put in execution in great Kingdoms as England wherein all the Churches offended cannot so easily meet together but also 13. Because the person offended after he hath represented his grievances unto one Church and that Church having received satisfaction it may go to another and that Church likewise having received satisfaction it may go to another and so continually in infinitum to the Worlds end evermore taking those Churches for the Partie that judge it which is most absurde and foolish 14. What if the Partie offended be poor and have not the means to post up and down from Neighbour-Church to Neighbour-Church to pray them to make the offending Church to give an account of her Judgement muchlesse to attend upon their uncertain conveniencie Here will be found true Pauper ubique jacet whereas in Presbyteriall Government the Partie offended may easily be redressed and get satisfaction as not having need so to post up and down to be at so great charges or to attend their conveniencie for by a simple Appeal he may binde the Church offending to appear at the day appointed 15. What if there should fall out an hundred such Offences in a small time Must so many Churches evermore gather together for every one of them apart 16. What if Churches be poor and cannot be at so great expence Then in that case it should seem there is no order to meet with Offences And as for those precepts 1 Cor. 10. and 1 Tim. 5. The first of them is not a Rule of Government or ruling of the Church but a generall command common to all Christians whereby the Apostle forewarnes the Corinthians in things indifferent not to give any occasion of Offence unto the Church of God or to any other but therein to comply with all men as he doeth himself From whence ye cannot draw a Rule or Law of ruling the Church or how the Church should take order with such Offenders so that it sheweth indeed every mans dutie towards the Church in things indifferent but not the Churches dutie towards every one of them in judging or ruling Ye might as well have proved it from this Principle Fly from all evil or from that We must love God above all things and our Neighbour as our selves neither see I any greater connexion that it hath with the one then with the other And truely I cannot sufficiently admire how out of that Principle Give no offence ne to any man ye can inferre this conclusion Ergo a Church offended may make a Church offending to give an account of her judgement before all the world and in case of impenitency pronounce a Sentence of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian Communion with her and further to declare it to all other Churches No more can it be inferred of the other viz. Be not partakers in other mens sins for the Apostle there giveth rules about the Vocation of Ministers forbiddeth Timothy to receive any man rashly into the Ministery least in so doing he be the cause of an unlawfull Vocation because saith he vers 24. their sin and incapacity will soon appear to all men But how is it possible out of this to spin out the former Couclusion § 18. Pag. 17 ye prove your former Conclusion thus 1. For that ye saw no further authority in Scripture in proceedings purcly Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending 2. Because no other Authority can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates power Answ 1. Ye saw no more in Scripture yea but saw ye your own Conclusion in Scripture 2. Truely we see no Word of God for it and if we take it not upon your word we shall never take it 3. If ye see no Scripture for it yet others may see 4. Ye may if ye will see it in the ordinary Practice of the Church of the Jews in the old Testament which is not abrogated in the New since it is not Ceremoniall but grounded in the Law of Nature Ye may see it in the History of the New Testament in the judgement given out at the Synod of Hierusalem concerning the businesse of Antiochia which I hope ye shall see cleerly demonstrated to you by a better hand before it be long 6. It may be proved by the Law of Nature which is a praecognitum to Scripture and supposed by Scripture for Grace is not destructory of Nature but a Superstructory above Nature So that when Scripture containeth nothing contradictory to the Dictats of Nature we are bound to believe them unlesse we will misbelieve God who is no lesse the Author of Nature and of the Dictats thereof then of Grace 2. Because no other Authority can rationally be put in execution without the Civill Magistrates power Answ 1. Our Brethren here as every where else stand very stiffly to Negations They never prove any positive Doctrine and it is known in the Schools how easie a thing it is to deny all things and to prove nothing If they had that to prove wherein they agree with us I suppose they should have more to do then we to prove that wherein they disagree from us But to take away all mistakes and captious Evasions we suppose that our Churches arrogate to themselves no Imperiall or Magisteriall but onely a Ministeriall Power or Authority 2. That it is meerly Spirituall consisting 1. in the Creation Suspension and Deposition of Church-Officers 2. in determining matters of Doctrine 3. in making of Ecclesiasticall Laws concerning things indifferent 4. in Ecclesiasticall Censures as in Suspension Excommunication c. They prove That no more can rationally be put in execution viz. then to call an offending Church to an account and in case of her impenitency to declare it to all other Churches Answ We deny the Assumption They prove it for that Christ gave no power to Churches to excommunicate their neighbour Churches Answ 1. This is again another mistake in our Brethren for they suppose that we excommunicate whole Churches which we never do 2. Neither believe I that they can bring us any examples of it The reason why we do not so is Because whole Churches ordinarily amongst us contemn not the superiour Ecclesiasticall Power viz. of Synods being bound by their Oath and Covenant to observe and maintain the Order of the Church 3. And therefore we have no Ecclesiasticall Laws concerning such cases for Lex est ordinatio rationis and Laws are not made of things that never fall out or of things that fall out extraordinarily but of things that are ordinary 4 Much lesse think I that ever any such case did fall out in any one of the Reformed Churches Item it is
another mistake to suppose that there is no Excommunication but in giving the offender over to Satan That is indeed the highest degree of Excommunication but not all the degrees of it for there is another lesse and inferiour viz. in separating him from Ecclesiasticall Communion And so it is yet another mistake in you to think that in declaring your non-Communion with other Churches ye do not excommunicate them for what is Excommunication but a privation of communion the very word it self teacheth us all this 6. If any such Case should extraordinarily fall out how can it be denyed but that the particular Church offending might be excommunicated by the rest of the Churches offended if the offence should deserve it 1. For we finde nothing in Scripture to the contrary 2. For there is the same reason for the Excommunication of whole Churches as of particular persons viz. the taking away of scandall and the conversion of the sinner 1 Cor. 5.5 2 Cor. 2.7 2 Thes 3.14 1 Tim. 1.20 and that such a contagion infect not others 1 Cor. 5 6 7. And if a particular man may be excommunicated for denying and blaspheming of Christ wherefore shall not a particular Church be excommunicated for the like sin Neither can their number and consociation excuse them but rather aggravateth the sin for the more offenders there be the greater is the offence and the greater should the punishment be 3. If a Church compounded of ten persons may excommunicate four of their own number wherefore also may not ten thousand Churches excommunicate this inconsiderable Church compounded of ten persons for the same reasons that it excommunicateth four persons hath God given more power to ten persons over four then to all the persons and Churches in the Kingdom yea in all the Christian world over these miserable and wretched persons who it may be deny the Trinity the Incarnation of the Son of God and maintain all sort of impieties 4. If God in Heaven and in his Scripture declare a Church excommunicated wherefore shall not his Churches upon Earth also declare it excommunicated when they learn it in his Word Are not the Churches of God as well bound to ratifie his Sentence here upon Earth as he to ratifie theirs in Heaven 5. We have some examples of it in the Old Testament for the people of God say some of our Divines excommunicated Amalck for proof whereof they bring the Targum Cant. 2. Contriverunt Amalek per diram imprecationem They bruised Amalek by the fearfull cursing of the Lord. So did they the Samaritans because of the building of their Temple upon the Mount Garizim They brought as Drusius and after him Weemse relate it 300 Priests 300 Trumpets 300 Books of the Law and 300 Boyes They blew with Trumpets and the Levites singing accursed the Cutthaans in the Name of Totragammaton or Jehova and with curses both the superiour and inferiour house of Judgement and they said Cursed is be who cateth the bread of the Cutthaean These Curses they wrote upon Tables and sealed them and sent them thorow all Israel who multiplied also this great Anathema upon them from whence proceeded a great hatred betwixt them as we reade in the Gospel If in vertue of a small offence one Church may pronounce that dreadfull Sentence of non-Communion against many Churches wherefore may not many Churches pronounce Sentence of great Excommunication against one small Church for a great sin since crescentibus delictis crescunt poenae Besides all this I deny the consequence for howbeit God had not ordained Excommunication viz. the greater which here ye understand yet might there be some other remedy found by the light of Nature But ye adde p. 18. That your Sentence of non-Communication will be as effectuall as the greater Excommunication This cannot be 1. Because if the offender have any grace the greater will terrifie him more 2. Because in your way the Sentence may seem unjust in punishing all offences and Offenders greater and smaller with the like Spirituall penalties 3. Your way cannot so well awe Churches and keep them in their duties for since ye attribute no authoritative power or authority to all the Churches of Christ over any particular Church but judge them all to be equall amongst themselves and one to all as if a part were equall to its totall and pars esset aequalis Toti Totum non esset majus quilibet suâ parte as if the part were equall to its whole and the whole were no greater then its part viz. a whole mans body then his toe a particular Church may think her self no ways bound to obey any other Church or Churches and much lesse will ten Churches think themselves bound to obey one for Obediecce is a vertue in Inferiours towards their Superiours But if all Churches be equall there can neither be Superiours nor Inferiours and consequently no obedience or disobedience 4. If a particular Church in your way desire to be obeyed by fourty Churches pretending her self to be offended by their proceedings they may think her bold in calling them to an account and that the spirits of Prophets should be subject to Prophets one rather to twenty or two thousand then twenty or two thousand to one 5. In our way a Church offending may esteem her offence greater and fear it more since she may judge her self to offend two Authorities 1. that of God and 2. that which he hath given unto the Church but in yours she cannot think her offence so great since she conceives her self to offend one authority or authoritative Power onely viz. that of God for ye acknowledge no authoritative power in the Church or Churches and so your way breedeth a plain contempt of all Church Authority 6. In denying an authoritative power the offender may think you too busie bodies in intermedling your selves with other folks matters which concerns you not so much whereas if ye granted an authoritative power unto her it should be her own proper businesse in vertue of her authoritative power received from God So also our way is more efficacious in the Churches offended 1. in breeding a greater detestation of sin 2. in making them to shun and avoyd more the company of the offender 3. in making them to conceive the Sentence to be more just c. Item if this your way be as efficacious ye need no other power in your particular Congregations over particular persons a simple admonition without any authoritative power may suffice you Ye yet say That your way is more brotherly in proceeding without an Authoritative power Answ God in the Old Testament ordained an Authoritative power in the Church and yet they were all Brethren and he knew well enough what power was convenient for Brethren 2. So likewise in particular Congregations we are all Brethren neither yet will ye banish out of them all Authority 3. 2 Kin 6.21 1 Cor 14 15 2 Cor. 6 13. and 12.14 Gal 4 19. 1 Thes
2.11 1 Tim. 1.2 Tit. 1.4 Phil 2.10 1 Ioh. 2.1.28 and 3.7 and 4.4 The Ministers and the Elders are not onely our Brethren but also our Fathers Ergo they must as well use paternall authority over us as brotherly charity towards us 4. So also combined Presbyteries or as it were Fathers of simple Presbyteries because of their greater power to judge 5. The like of this Government hath never been heard of in the world neither in State nor Common-wealth before and therefore seemeth it to us to be repugnant unto the Law of Nature for what else is the Law of Nature but the common consent of all men How absurd therefore is that Government so destitute of all authority have the sheep as great authoirty as the Sheepherd if so it is as good to be a sheep as a Sheepherd 6. If an Authoritative power cannot hold in the Church or among Churches because that we are all Brethren and Sisters no more can it hold in the State betwixt King and Subject the father and the son the master and the servant for we are all Brethren in Christ so this Foundation or Ground-work will destroy all sort of Politicall and Domesticall Authority Our Brethren would do well also to consider whether their Grounds or those of our Government will better consist with the Authority of the civill Magistrate for according to this reason a King in a State should have no power at all over his Brother 7. In the State there be divers Judicatories Superiour and Inferiour wherein the Superiour hath an authoritative power over the inferiour Ergo in the Church since there is the same reason for both viz. reparation of the offence taken at inferiour Judicatories But because ye will seem to be much addicted to the civill Magistrate as if your Ecclesiasticall Government were altogether subordinate unto his power and blame us as not giving him his due which ye note by a particular Parenthesis as if ye would have us to take particular notice of it Therefore before we end this Section we shall be very willing to do it In saying that the Presbyteriall Excommunication is no more effectuall then your Sentence of non-Communion without the Magistrates Power ye adde this Parenthesis To which we give as much and as we think more then the Principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld By whose counsell or for what end this Parenthesis is inserted and such a comparison made I know not If ye have no Politicall ayms I am assured ye comply very much with Policy If ye grant him so much ye would do well to declare how much and wherein and not to feed him with generalities and Platonicall Idees as abstract here from all matter as ye professed formerly your Church-Government was abstracted from all other Governments It is a Maxime in Philosophy and in Rhetorick both That Sermones generales non movent and praised be God that the King and Parliament are wise and will not feed upon so abstract forms As for us since ye keep your selves upon such generalities it is impossible to us to answer any thing in particular unlesse we guesse at your meaning In generall therefore we say 1. That amongst men well bred all comparisons are odious 2. That either ye give unto the civill Magistrate onely his due or something more if onely his due ye lay a very heavie aspersion upon all Presbyterians as if they were not good Subjects in denying him a part of his due If more who gave you the power to do so 3. Either ye grant him more in Civill or in Spirituall matters In Civill matters ye cannot for ye can grant him no more then he hath by the Laws of the Land whereunto we are all equally subject and therefore must grant him as much one as another If in Spirituall matters we grant him his externall power as we declared in the beginning And for intrinsecall Spirituall power 1. It is not in your power to grant him any at all neither can ye give him more Spirituall obedience then Scripture permitteth you or give him a part of the Spirituall power that ye have received of God for that were to lay upon another the burden that God hath laid upon you and so serve God by a Proctor 2. It is onely in God who is King in this Spirituall Kingdom Master in this House and a Father in this Family who can give power therein to any man we dare not be so bold If ye pretend to do it I say with the Comick Poet de te largitor puer be liberall upon your own purse 4 If ye will do so look how Authoritative is your power who take Authority over Gods Ordinance and dispose of it as if it were your own so do not the Presbyterians 5. The Civill Magistrate acknowledgeth himself to be a Politicall and no Ecclesiasticall person since he is neither Pastor nor Doctor nor Ruling Elder in Christs Church and therefore arrogateth no Spirituall Authority to himself 6. We desire to know of you Brethren what ye understand here by the Magistrate Whether the Supreme or Subaltern If the Supreme whether the King or Parliament and principally at this time If the Subaltern we ask of you Whether every Justice of Peace shall or can judge of all Ecclesiasticall matters And if he cannot whether he can be a competent Judge 7. What if the Civill Magistrate be a Papist what if some of the Kings Councell be Papists or Heterodox as some in the beginning of this Parliament were will ye grant that they judge in matters of Religion So the Turk the Antichrist and Pagans shall judge in matters of Religion amongst their Protestant Subjects If so our Protestants in France in Polonia and otherwhere are in a very fair way Its pity but such a Maxime should have been published in Queen Maries time and at Saint Bartholomews day in France at that Butchery or Massacre of Protestants 8. The Apostle 1 Cor. 6. findes fault with the Christians that did plead before Infidels in civill matters what then would he not have said if godly men would have pleaded before them and submitted matters of Religion unto their judgement 9. This power that ye grant to the Magistrate is either Internall or Externall in regard of the Church If Externall we grant it as well as ye If Internall then he must be an Ecclesiasticall Person And then 10. It should follow That a Soveraign Prince should as well be Soveraign in the Church as in the State and so Internall head of both which is derogatory to Christs Royaltie as our Doctors have sundry times cleerly demonstrated it against the Jesuites and other Papists 11. Women that are commanded to be silent in the Church should rule it and command men in it since they may be Soveraign Princes in it and over it and so Leglise tomberoit on quenvillo And if it be replyed wherefore may they not as well rule the Church as the
1. Because ye found the spirits of the people of this Kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse ready to take any impressions and to be cast in any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way 2. Because that the mists gathered about you begun to scatter 3. Because ye published not your opinions by Preaching although ye had the Pulpits free nor in Print although the Presses were more free then the Pulpits Answ Your Partie will deny the Assumption for if ye and the rest of your Partie made it not up how is it made up in this Kingdom As for the proof of your Provocations We have answered already to the first The third and fourth we allow it not if any man hath done so To the second we shall answer hereafter And as for the fifth good Sheepherds could not without an abominable prevarication but write against yours and all other mens Innovations when they saw so many Sects multiplied and Woolfs creeping in so fast into Christs Sheep-fold to devour the flock 2. If ye blame our faithfull Ministers for maintaining the Truth already received what shall we say of your folks who have first published Books against the Truth 3. What shall we say of those of your Colleagues who heretofore preached your Tenets with great offence here in publike And who still run busily up and down to make Proselytes To the second proof your Assumption 1. We have already answered that it is made but how we know not 2. What were those people that professe and pretend to any power of godlinesse so ready to take any impression and to make a Partie ye tell not We wish to know whether they be Brownists Anabaptists or of what other Sect 3. Your Covenant obligeth you to declare it unto the Parliament however ye reveal it not unto us 4. Certainly true Professors of godlinesse are not so susceptible of any impressions much lesse to become factious 5. And therefore ye adde well or pretend for such men pretend onely to godlinesse but have renounced in effect the power thereof Here we see howsoever ye pretend not to be States-men yet ye know as much of it as the Presbyterians Your second occasion was the dissipations of mists c. If so and onely so then what needed this Apologeticall Narration § 25. Pag. 25. To the third occasion whether ye had the Pulpits so free or feared to have them lesse free afterwards I dispute not ye know that well enough Onely this I know That some of your Brethren having given themselves libertie to speak somewhat freely in favour of your opinions were afterwards discountenanced and became more prudent and circumspect in venting of themselves If ye printed not your opinions it may be ye deal more prudently in teaching them in private then in publishing them in Print And here ye shew how your Charitie is grown cold for in the beginning when so many mists were gathered about you for fear of Schisme out of meet Charitie ye abstained from writing and now when they are scattered ye write Your third Grievance is the reproach of that proud and insolent title of Independency Answ Ye decline that proud Title but will no wayes quit the thing signified by the Title in that ye maintain the Independency of every one of your Churches from all Ecclesiasticall Authoritie or Authoritative Power of any Ecclesiasticall Assembly yea some of your Profession say That it belongs not to the Magistrate to punish any man for his Religion be it never so odious and wicked as we have heard from their own mouths So that there is another new Independency If it be replied here That I did prove before that ye acknowledge some Ecclesiasticall Authoritie whereunto your particular Churches are subject I answer It is but by necessary consequence that they must hold it and not interminis or expresly that they beleeve it for they deny interminis what they must grant by consequence It is drawn out of the evasions that they bring against our Reasons whereby whilest they seek to escape they are catcht Pag. 4. Your fourth Grievance whereof ye complain and bewall your selves is Brownisme together with all their Opinions wherewith ye are traduced Answ But ye disclaim not Brownisme and their Opinions absolutely but with a restriction and secundum quid viz. As they have stated and maintained them 2. By another limitation viz. That ye differ much from them not in re sed in modo rei It may be ye hold and maintain the same opinions but not the same way And yet ye sympathize very much with them in puining untoward names upon us but not upon them There also ye declare what ye confesse and beleeve viz. The trueth to lye in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government Answ But this is nothing but your errour Veritie consisteth not in the middle of this or that which ye imagine but in a conformitie of our conceptions with their object and due measure which in this matter is onely Gods Word revealed in the holy Scriptures and according to this rule I take Presbyterian Government rather to be the middle betwixt Popish Tyranny and Independent Anarchy § 25. Pag. 25. Your fifth Grievance is Some incitements to this State not to allow us say ye the peaceable practises of our Consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us Answ If any man incited the State not to allow you a peaceable practise of your new Religion they did according to their conscience as your New-England men do with those of our Religion and as some say that some of you five would do with us Their Reasons might have been these 1. Because it cannot but open a door to all sorts of erroneous Opinions 2. It is dangerous for the State it may breed factions and divisions betwixt all persons of whatsoever relation betwixt the Magistrate and the Subject the Husband and the Wife the Father and the Son Brethren Sisters the Master and the Servant when the one is of one Religion or Ecclesiasticall Government and the other of another as ye have experimented The Son may refuse to receive any communion with the Father and the Brother with the Brother and so dissolve all naturall civill and domesticall bands of Societie 3. No State in Christendome where there is one onely Religion established will admit the publike exercise of any other or endure a Schisme in that which is already received Wherefore then should it be done here 4. If it be granted to our Brethren I cannot see how it can well be denyed to other Sects If it be said That other Sects differ more from us then they do it is all one Magis minus non mutant Speciem in matter of Toleration for then all must be tolerated howsoever some more some lesse And some of our Brethren grant all the Argument And if we distinguish so ye must declare and expound cleerly what Sects and