Confessor William the first Hen. 1. Hen. 3. Edw. 2. Edw. 3. Rich. 2. Hen. 4. Hen. 5. Hen. 6. Edw. 4. Rich. 3. H. 7. H. 8. and also that in their several and respective Raigns the Popes claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here in England was declared null even by those of the Romish Communion and that the King was acknowledged to be the Vicar of the highest King compleat Monarch Head of the whole body of the Realm to govern and rule the Kingdom and People of the Land and above all things the Holy Church and defend the same to give Authority to his Clergy to exercise Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in this Realm according to Canons and Laws made for that purpose and that all Dignitaries of the Church derive their preferments from the King and no other exclusive of the Popes Authority in all Cases whatsoever Pap. How can you call that an absolute Certainty when there is at the same time a Possibility that the same may be false for there is a Possibility that all Historians may be mistaken and all Histories forged Phy. So is there as much Possibility that the Air may become an unproportionate Medium and disturb my Certainty of sight and so the Sense deluded so may I have a Delirium and my Intellectuals at some time disturbed in their Mathematical Activity and so confound all absolute Certainties But until there appear an absolute Certainty of such Interruptions of such means of absolute Certainties the three absolute Certainties remain such for it is not enough to suppose a Possibility to the contrary that makes them less certain but there must appear as high a Certainty to the contrary And while my Understanding is fully satisfied of such Certainties it is impossible to believe a Possibility to the contrary and in case of Historians reporting a matter of Fact diversly the greater and more valuable Testimony is to my understanding absolute the other not as if Mr. Cressey affirms in his Church-History that this Kingdom of England was for One thousand years absolutely subject to the Spiritual Jurisdiction of the Pope and all the Testimonies before mentioned which are Records kept and preserved inviolate and sacred in the Archives of the Kingdom with the care equal with the Evidences for the Crown and Concerns of the King and People say the contrary I take it this last Testimony is of absolute Certainty the other not Pap. But notwithstanding all these Records Popery was in all those Kings Raigns used in England Phy. It was so and Hen. 8. dyed one of your steady Roman-Church Catholicks but whatsoever powers the Pope had in any or all those Kings Raigns in England was meerly by the Concession of such Kings and not otherwise and at their will and pleasure only and which they might at any time resume at the like pleasure which other Kings have done since And I must tell you that although such Concessions have been yet they ought not to have been for the King cannot grant away any Inherent Flower of the Crown such as Jurisdiction is no more then he can grant away the Crown it self And whereas the timerous King John the very black Patch of the English Race laid down his Crown at the Infidel Embassadors feet and afterwards allowed it Tributary to your Italian Usurper It was more then he by the Law of this Realm could do and his Acts therein were wholly void but the King may appoint or alter a Discipline and Worship not contrary to Gods Holy Will and Appointment Pap. Well but what if the King should appoint a Liturgie and Form of Worship the same with that of the Catholick Countries Phy. If he should what then would that satisfie the true Catholicks of the Church of Rome and make them true English men Pap. I believe it might for while you have so good Authority against the Popes Jurisdiction here I cannot see at present what more they can have Phy. I vow I see such kind of arguings as these will soon bring these Controversies into a narrow Room and being pressed forward and home to an End Pap. Hold there for though I cannot at present answer your studied Arguments yet I may upon Deliberation however there are them who are able to do it whom I shall consult and then talk with you further Phy. There are them Very well who are them with a Mischief What blind leads the blind Credulity and Ignorance are the Pillars of your Church But come Sir let me give you some Advice The Service of God ought to be a reasonable Service that is Logical according to the word in the Original reasoning or your reason ought to be primarily concerned therein You are a person endued with rational Faculties and some stock of Improvements You are thereby distinguished from Brutâ— you are not to act in things of Religion out of Custom Precept or Example meerly but to be a wise Berean more noble than those of Thessalonica to search the Scriptures and try whether what is taught you be according thereto do not pin your Faith on other mens sleevs as the saying is admire not persons ignorantly nor things for persons sakes It was not a justifiable saying of him who had rather be in an Error with Plato then in the truth with any other There was one Farrel an active Presbyterian in Geneva after whom the People flocked In so much as one became so bold as to say he gave greater honour to Farrel then to Paul and another said of Calvin that were Paul and Calvin to preach together he would leave Paul to hear Calvin So that many men profess this or that Sect of Religion not so much for Religion sake as for the sake of the Sect Leaders Imitate St. Austin who having a long time followed St. Cyprian an Orthodox Father of the Church in the interpretation of a place of Scripture afterwards met with Ticonius an Heretick interpreting that place which he closed with conceiving it best Pap. Truly Sir I deny not but your Advice is wholesom and perhaps seasonable I shall think of it But Sir what if the Roman Catholicks should declare that they believed and owned the Kings Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction as well as Temporal in all his Dominions and disowned the Popes right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever here would not that be Security sufficient for the publick Peace and prevent severe Laws against us Phy. I think in such case our King might well say of such Papists as the Duke of Saxony said of the Lutherans viz. what they believe now I know but what they will believe next year I know not And you may deny the Popes Jurisdiction here as the Papists in France did the Popes power of Princes yet hold it so at Rome And you may own Allegiance and Supremacy to be in the King as Vauinus wrote for Providence yet denyed a deity But I do think that an Oath to that purpose well Pen'd and well taken would conduce somewhat to the
room of I beseech ye Brethren Rom. 13. and which is remarkable Mahomet the Grand Impostor broke then out also when the Pope became a Temporal Prince by the Gift to him of the Kingdom of the Lombards by Pippin Son of Charles Martel Another Question is Sir whether our King is not as good a Successor to St. Joseph as a Lay Pope is to St. Peter Pope Constantine the fourth being opposed by the Council of Lateran as being a Lay person justified himself and shewed for President Sergius Bishop of Ravenna and Stephen Bishop of Naples and when the Pope said first Mass in the City of Constance King Sigismund in Deacons habit read the Gospel out of St. Luke 2. there went out a Decree from Caesar Augustus c. Pap. Well Sir let 's not talk too much of these matters for I may be drawn into a snare in seeming to lessen the Kings Authority from whom I expect protection and desire the Exercise of my Religion after my own Judgment Phy. Your own Judgment I like the words well and wish you guided by your own Judgment rightly improved by due Inquiries into things and not by the Judgment of others without a rational satisfaction why or wherefore but only you must do because you are bid to do so and until that you may expect and desire long enough before it be granted Pap. Why should you be so severe against us who promise all due Obedience to the King and not to disturb the peace of the Nation Phy. You may promise due Obedience but then you tell not what that due Obedience is Also men of your perswasion have alwaies promised fair but no Age can testifie their suitable performances if fit occasion be offered to the contrary Pap. Why then will you condemn all for some Phy. How shall we distinguish ye Will ye Rendevouz on black Heath and divide into parties Pap. I gave you a Distinction before of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists the latter only are proper to be called Papists the former true Roman Catholicks Phy. Why Then I am no Protestant but a true English Catholick Pap. Yes though you be not a Lutheran Protestant nor a Calvinian Protestant yet you protest against the Church of Rome Phy. So though you be not a Jesuit Papist a de fide Papist yet you are a Papist owning the Popes Authority against the Church of England Pap. Well then you acknowledge us not to be so dangerous as some other Papists are Phy. Truth I cannot acknowledg ye so for for ought I know or perhaps your selves you may be as ill as the worst And whilst you make a Party disclaimer of the Popes Authority here that may be but a pretence and you may have the Popes Authority for so doing It 's not a new thing that Dispensations have been given by the Pope and frequently they are not only to Church with us at large but to communicate with us also and some have had Indulgences to worship Idols in proper Countries And this is your holy Stratagem like that of Cromwell who banished some hence to betray the King beyond Sea And it is to be remembred That Watson of whom your Peter Walsh speaks so well and called himself Puritan Papist and was of the same opinion with him in all your Distinctions and professions of Allegiance and Obedience to our King proved in conclusion a most notorious open Traytor Pap. I cannot tell but I protest if the Pope should invade ENGLAND to disturb the Peace thereof I would draw my sword as soon against him as I did against Cromwell Phy. So I have heard others greater then you to have said but pray deal fairly and candidly with me what is it that you would have Pap. That 's a Strange Question at this time of day Phy. It 's not strange while I judge by your uncertain Discourses you know not well what to have Pap. Why I would have Liberty to exercise Religion according to the Church of Rome Phy. That 's diverse from what you ask'd before for the Religion of the Church of Rome is that the Pope has power over our King and how consists that with your Protestation to fight against him if he Exercises that power equally as against Cromwell this is one of your Romish Equivocations and it may be you did not draw your Sword against Cromwell or that you intend the Popes personal Invasion of ENGLAND which is likely for the Pope by his Authority given to his Emissaries invades ENGLAND and disturbs its peace every day Pap. I intend it as fully as can be intended of any sort of Invasion or disturbance of peace by himself or others for it suffices me to Exercise the Roman Catholick Religion after the manner used by the true-English-Roman-Catholicks Phy. Would you Exercise a Religion after such a manner as is not used or exercised in any one Country whatsoever Pray Sir give me leave to ask you another Strange Question as you call it viz. Do you think it necessary to be of the Communion of some Church or no Pap. 'T is strange indeed Yes I do think it absolutely necessary to be of the Communion of the Church of ROME and I am so Phy. Very well Why are you so Pap. Because my Superior is so Phy. Who is your Superior Pap. Your pardon for that Sir Phy. Is he an ENGLISH Roman-Catholick Priest now residing in ENGLAND Pap. He is and what then I hope you intend not to inveigle me into a Discovery of him to his harm Phy. No indeed I wish them all well well informed or well out of harms way but my aim was by that to tell you what I think viz. That that very Superior of yours is not now nor has he been for many years last past himself a Member of that Church or of that Communion or if he be he 's but a lame Member Pap. Sir you think strangely and I must tell you that he is Professor of Divinity and a Priest of the Order of St. Francis Phy. Let him be what he will or can I say still as I did before and will Justifie it that 's more but Wee 'l let that alone till anon and I 'le be hold to ask you another question which may not seem so Strange as the former and that is how near does your Church of Rome agree with our Church of England in the business of Excommunications Pap. What your Church of England intends by Excommunication you know best but our Church of Rome holds That when a Man is Excommunicated by our Church he is quite cut off from the Church and its Communion and delivered over to Satan until penance be done and absolution given to him and for it's power I 'le tell you the Abby of Fusuiack was infested with Flies the Abbot Clareval said Excommunico eas and they were all dead immediately A white loaf by Excommunication turns as black as a Coal and being absolv'd turns
say against Forreigners let them use what Religion their Superiours there injoyn them But against English men who in opposition to the Religion of State distinct from that of Faith which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power such as your Church of Rome Papist is for ought I can yet see If your Father Paul was such I think him either a fool or a Knave for if St. Peters Successor did behave himself well in that Council your Paul was a Knave to traduce him if contrary he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide yet were he a Subject of Rome he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince and yet was religious to dye a steady Cathâ—lick of that Church while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peters Chair Pap. Well Sir say what you will I say I am a true Roman Catholick as to the other World and a true English man as to this Phy. Sir you offered a Distinction lately with a witness viz. Father Paul and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore and as to this I say it 's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man for it looks two waies for if Chequer Papist party per pale half true Papist half true English will not do then it is to be interpreted True English man for life and after true Roman Catholick and so it has something of Policy but more of Romish Guile In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation here during life and after in the other world True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter God a mercy good Distinguisher he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this how he cheats the Pope all his life and cheats the King at his death this Distinction dares not appear at Rome no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh Mr. White or Mr. Serjeant who non-conform from the Church of Rome more then our Independent from the Church of England Pap. But Sir if the Distinguisher as you call him explains himself and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively as to Matters of State and passively as to Matters of Church and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there who are good Subjects nevertheless owe Allegiance and claim protection c. what say you then c Phy. First I say that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperours divided them and causes were all derived from the same Fountain the King but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil thence arose the two Jurisdictions which are naturally one as in our King and by Delegation only made two But I further say if you be in earnest it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons and I mean by earnest real for sad Experience has shew'd that it is not the first time by thousands that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us Yet not in earnest or real as such but in Masquerade and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience I say further It 's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance for such Notional Obedience is indeed none True Obedience ought to be intire and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate for the Lords sake who injoyns to obey not barely for the Commands-sake which injoyns to do And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship But Sir I would willingly be resolv'd whether the Romish Church Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment or by reason of some Command from the Pope next whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters Inasmuch as the former whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture yet he takes it not from our Prince and lodges it in a forraign Prince or Prelate which last makes it Treason Let this be answered and I 'le promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail as at present gives occasion of our Discourse Pap. Pray Sir is there any harm if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Phy. None at all as the former is a Temporal Prince and the latter but a Subject nay more the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at a general Council when it happens but not in England unless by Curtesy And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop who is Apostolick and Patriarch here as Pope Vrban the second allowed and you are a Traytor to the King by and under whose undoubted inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Primate in this Patriarchate Pap. But do you think in your Conscience that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England Phy. Aye I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Dominions Pap. Pray what Grounds have you for it Phy. The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records continued in Succession for many hundred years which are to be seen in the Tower and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke and cited in the Report of a Law Case called Cawdries Case and in Mr. Prins Collections whereby it plainly appears that in all ages wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England and offered to put the same in Execution it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Councils as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown Pap. But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies Phy. Sir as to the matter of Certainty I shall not use the notions so much contended about viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of there being three absolute Certainties by which we come to the knowledg of things 1. A sensible Certainty 2. A Mathematical Certainty 3. An Historical Certainty and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see hear c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain that one and one makes two and three and three makes six The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages and Historians makes me absolutely certain that there were such Kings of England as Kenulphus King Edwin Edw. the